While I agree E is messed up right now....

[Bob Haller]

[B]Its all well and good to trash E here. As a matter of fact they deserve it, what with buggy PVRs and now the DVR fee fiasco.
But lets NOT forget all E has brought us.

LIL which will probably cover 100% of the country

First DBS PVR, the dishplayer. Yeah I know it had trouble, but it did break new ground.

Multislot service, D had no interest in this.

Much larger packages, from top 40 to top 150 in a few short years.

A owner who at least in the past appeared to be interested in what it suubscribers wanted.

[Mike D-CO5]

I talked to Kip Wilcoxson of the Engineering department with Dish and he said he thought Dish would have all the locals up in the country by 2005 . He also said they were testing channels right now on the 105 sat they rented space on.

I think if people were patient they would see that Dish has been a leader in the sat business and they will bring this company into the 21 st century . They are working to bring us more and more in technological advances ; the 522 with the ability to watch 2 different shows on the same receiver. The ablility to use one cable and split it to two reciever inputs on the same receiver. And on and on. Dish has been the leader in all most all the advances we have seen in sat technology and with out them we would not even have local into locals at all.

Charlie although being a little cheap and sometimes a ******* when it comes with negotiations, is fighting over all for the customers. I think he should rethink the dvr fees on all the receivers and turn this into a whole house account or give you the option to buy a lifetime subscription fee on the dvrs.

All and all Dish is trying to make advances and I am sure if anyone can get us hdtv locals from the major networks it will be Charlie and DishNetwork. Hdtv is relatively a new technology and it will take a while to get these channels up, but I am sure in the next 10 years we will see more and more of these channels being broadcast by Dishnetwork.


People need to be patient and realize that if you rush all these changes for Hdtv and the newer receivers ,we would be discussing the new 921 receiver and all it's bugs on a thread right now. Yes it bugs me that Directv has more in hdtv content right now compared to Dish but I don't have hdtv yet anyway so I can wait for a few more years from now before I upgrade , but I would like to have that new 921 receiver. :lol:

[cbusbee]

I'm a fairly new subscriber to Dish (about 2 years) and have subscribed to Directv for 8 or 9 years (since day 1). I downgraded my Directv service (only NFL ticket) because I was gettingg into HD and Dish was the leader in HD programming at that time. I have considered going back to DTV for HD programming, but have too much invested in Dish hardware and I'm optimistic that Dish's new Superdish and HD programming package will again make them the leader in HD. Now I may change my mind if it is going to cost me hundreds of dollars to get the Superdish, switches and adapters for my 6000, 508, and 3900. I can get a new HD DTV system (still have 2 receivers) for about $500. And when I compare quality side-by-side on my 32" Panasonic Tau or my 57" Toshiba HD set the Directv picture has better color and sharpness. Dish's picture looks washed out. I cannot even watch ESPN (fast moving action) on my 57" because of the blurriness. I have to use the smaller set. Maybe with the new satelites going up Dish can reduce compression for sports channels in particular so that we have a better picture.

Speaking of ESPN. I only wish that Dish could get ESPN-HD before football season begins. Why not sign a contract and offer it on one of the current HD transponders? What better demo channel than ESPN in big-box retail stores. Does Dish really want consumers to be told to go with Directv because they have the hottest HD channel in ESPN. I think if it was made available that it would drive Superdish and HD receiver sales. Whet the consumers (football fan's) appetite and he will have to have it. Please Charlie, listen to your fans and customers and do whatever it takes to get ESPN-HD on ASAP.

[Curtis0620]

LIL which will probably cover 100% of the country

First DBS PVR, the dishplayer. Yeah I know it had trouble, but it did break new ground.

Multislot service, D had no interest in this.

Much larger packages, from top 40 to top 150 in a few short years.

A owner who at least in the past appeared to be interested in what it suubscribers wanted.

LIL? D* with SPACEWAY, will also probably cover 100% of the country.

First DBS PVR? It's who has the best now that means something.

Multislot? Most consumers don't want multiple dishes.

Larger packages in a few short years? That can be said for both companies.

[Bob Haller]

LIL? D* with SPACEWAY, will also probably cover 100% of the country.

First DBS PVR? It's who has the best now that means something.

Multislot? Most consumers don't want multiple dishes.

Larger packages in a few short years? That can be said for both companies.

Well you should give them some credit for breaking new ground.

Multislot slot isnt necessarily multi dish as any 500 owner knows

D gave up all its other side slots and built boxes without multislot capability because they didnt think it would be needed////

E drove the larger carriage packages.

[Curtis0620]

But my point is, so what who was first, it's who is doing it better now.

[jerryez]

Mike D c05: " Yes it bugs me that Directv has more in hdtv content right now compared to Dish but I don't have hdtv yet anyway so I can wait for a few more years from now before I upgrade."

It is easy for you to be patient, you do NOT even have HDTV yet. So, why should you even get an opnion.

[Mike D-CO5]

My point is get off of Dish's back and be patient about the future of the receivers and the hdtv content and it Will come in the near future. I don't think personally for me that I want hdtv right now so I can be patient. I have seen hdtv and I think it is nice but not a necessity yet . All early adopters pay as far as the new technology and programming content is concerned. If you remember back in the 60's , color tv was all the rage and I can remember most tv shows not being broadcast in color till the late 60s . Be patient it will come.


And for the future Jerry, You should not pass judgement on anything that people voice an opinion on . As far as I know this is stil America and we didn't elect you the dictator yet. :mad:

[Chris Freeland]

My point is get off of Dish's back and be patient about the future of the receivers and the hdtv content and it Will come in the near future. I don't think personally for me that I want hdtv right now so I can be patient. I have seen hdtv and I think it is nice but not a necessity yet . All early adopters pay as far as the new technology and programming content is concerned. If you remember back in the 60's , color tv was all the rage and I can remember most tv shows not being broadcast in color till the late 60s . Be patient it will come.


And for the future Jerry, You should not pass judgement on anything that people voice an opinion on . As far as I know this is stil America and we didn't elect you the dictator yet. :mad:

Yes I agree, I also would like HDTV someday but I can not justify the investment in the equipment at this time simply for a wide screen and a better more life like picture, at this time for me HDTV is a luxury which I can not afford. Having said the above, I would like to see the SuperDish and HD packages and new receivers out as soon as possible for the sake of all those who want this now, however we want all this to work correctly. It seams that E* can not win, if they rush a product to market and it has some bugs they get hell, if they take their time and hopefully eliminate the bugs before launch, they get hell for taking too long :shrug: . Even though I will not be getting HDTV soon, I am anxious for the SuperDish so I can get my locals and I may be interested in the 522 in the near future, I just hope E* gets it right the first time. I have ben a E* sub off and on, mostly on ;) since 96 and have ben mostly satisfied with them, they have done a few things lately that I do not totally agree with, but since E* will likely have my locals up before the end of the year and D* has no plan for my locals in the foreseeable future and I will not switch to CONcast, I will not be changing providers anytime soon.

[Jacob S]

And Charlie said something along the lines of the only way of getting all the locals in the U.S. up was to have the merger. It seems like they are going to have it in the same time frame as they would have with DirecTv and that they are progressing about as good as they would have. The only difference I see is that we are having to use lower powered satellites with a little bigger dishes and lnbf's.

[FTA Michael]

Charlie although being a little cheap and sometimes a ******* when it comes with negotiations, is fighting over all for the customers. I think he should rethink the dvr fees on all the receivers ...Negotiations are about how much programming will cost Dish. Dish sets its rates to customers to maximize profits, period. If Dish gets a break on TechTV, it's good news for E* shareholders, but it won't change our rates.

It's great PR for Charlie to say that his main reason for every decision is to benefit subscribers, but if you examine those decisions, they're all about the bottom line. Distant locals? E*'s making good money on every sub who buys them, so naturally they want to keep them available. DVR fees? Charlie said (correctly) that he was leaving money on the table. As with most prices, the amount is based primarily on what the customer is willing to pay.

Not that there's anything wrong with any of this. E* is a business, and as long as it provides me $80 or more worth of enjoyment for my $80, it's doing a good job. Just don't start actually believing that everything is done for the benefit of the subs.

[Jacob S]

I agree. If you see Dish saving money, getting better deals, and so forth, dont expect to see it on your bill. Sometimes they do it to make up for when they have to pay more elsewhere. I would not ever expect a programming bill to go down in price. I would expect more channels being added instead.

[harsh]

But my point is, so what who was first, it's who is doing it better now.

In a moment, right now will be history. What Dish or DirecTV is doing (or claiming) today is no clear indicator of what they are going to make available for the new year. Dish could leapfrog DirecTV or DirecTV might extend their lead.

Living in the now is simple and comfortable, but it will be over before you know it. You have to keep an eye on what the future may bring.

[Chris Freeland]

Currently I am not subbing to anything, E*, D* or CONcast, I am ota only because I am currently not working steady :( , however before hard times set in a few months ago, I was an E* sub since they started back in 96. Over the years I have stayed loyal to E* because of lower programing fees and the Superstation's, as time goes buy those E* advantages seam to get fewer and fewer until now their are very few if any advantages left for E* vs D*, at least cost wise and D* has better DVR's, however when I am again working steady again ( hopefully in IT ;) ) I will likely re-activate my E* account rather then switch to D* because of these 3 reasons; (1) Chattanooga locals coming to E* and not D* likely this year :joy: . (2) New DVR522 coming that has two seperate outputs which can replace both of my old 2000 and 2700 receiver's once I am able to save my penny's. (3) Superstions are still available at this time and Chattanooga does not have a full-time UPN station.

[BobMurdoch]

A little perspective.........

After all of the uproar of the last few weeks withthe PVR fees and the useless Charlie Chat this month, I was itching to start a thread like this one but you beat me to it.

As an E* subscriber, this is the way I see it......

If you MUST have baseball and/or NFL football or you want A LOT of PPV movies go with D*. Due to their monopoly on football for a few years, E* subscribers need to stop whining about football as it will not change until at least 2006. Baseball might be possible, but look for Rupert to leverage his clout to keep that as well.

If you are only on an inexpensive programming package and refuse to upgrade to AEP, and you want multiple PVRs, then switch to D*. If you are a high end subscriber who subscribes to AEP, then there are no worries here as there will be zero impact from the fees.

If Picture Quality is your primary goal, then E* wins based on subjective reviews I have heard. E* has the bandwidth, both now and in the future to handle much more growth in the midterm. There is a major equipment upgrade coming for a lot of people who want access to the new birds, and the secondary must carry channels will be an issue for many (as I'm sure the broadcasters will have a conniption when they find out that people will give up the ability to view their channels to trade for HDTV). Long term E* SHOULD be able to clean D*'s clock on PQ and channel quantity as these new transponders come available.

From a retail standpoint, there will be a splintering of the retail channel as Walmart, Costco, Radio Shack, and Sears push budget customers to E*, while Best Buy, Circuit City, and many of the other regional CE stores push D* to the mid to upper income types. E* seems to be happy to saturate the market with 301s and has decided not to "give away" PVR service anymore. The vast majority of people are spitting nails HERE, but how many of the "new" customers will argue as loudly? This strategy may actually nudge many fence sitters to upgrade from the middle tiers to AEP and wind up being a shrewd move. Time (and subscriber churn numbers) will tell. The vast amount of lemmings out there will determine what they do next. Although our voice may be listened to occasionally when bugs strike, our market power is zilch in getting management to listen to us and change their strategy based on our griping.

E* still has the superstations, CBS-HD, and the Internationals in the Pro column. D* has HDNet, ESPN-HD, and a few other channels in their Pro column.

We are on the brink of a MAJOR change in capability and I am planning on waiting it out to see how it all plays out. If after a year, we are still arguing about a lot of these issues then I would think about jumping ship, but once you look at the long term view E* has the greater POTENTIAL. However, I can hear all of the E* bashers dusting off their flamethrowers as Charlie has let us down before with vaporware and promises that haven't been fulfilled. If done right, E* can continue to close the subscriber gap as they have for the last 4 years. If they shoot themselves in the foot, they can derail the whole thing.

Well, the old chinese curse will be upon us for the next year...........

"May you live in interesting times......"

Grab your popcorn this should be good (and the forums will be buzzing for months over both good AND bad news)

[Mike D-CO5]

A little perspective.........

After all of the uproar of the last few weeks withthe PVR fees and the useless Charlie Chat this month, I was itching to start a thread like this one but you beat me to it.

As an E* subscriber, this is the way I see it......

If you MUST have baseball and/or NFL football or you want A LOT of PPV movies go with D*. Due to their monopoly on football for a few years, E* subscribers need to stop whining about football as it will not change until at least 2006. Baseball might be possible, but look for Rupert to leverage his clout to keep that as well.

If you are only on an inexpensive programming package and refuse to upgrade to AEP, and you want multiple PVRs, then switch to D*. If you are a high end subscriber who subscribes to AEP, then there are no worries here as there will be zero impact from the fees.

If Picture Quality is your primary goal, then E* wins based on subjective reviews I have heard. E* has the bandwidth, both now and in the future to handle much more growth in the midterm. There is a major equipment upgrade coming for a lot of people who want access to the new birds, and the secondary must carry channels will be an issue for many (as I'm sure the broadcasters will have a conniption when they find out that people will give up the ability to view their channels to trade for HDTV). Long term E* SHOULD be able to clean D*'s clock on PQ and channel quantity as these new transponders come available.

From a retail standpoint, there will be a splintering of the retail channel as Walmart, Costco, Radio Shack, and Sears push budget customers to E*, while Best Buy, Circuit City, and many of the other regional CE stores push D* to the mid to upper income types. E* seems to be happy to saturate the market with 301s and has decided not to "give away" PVR service anymore. The vast majority of people are spitting nails HERE, but how many of the "new" customers will argue as loudly? This strategy may actually nudge many fence sitters to upgrade from the middle tiers to AEP and wind up being a shrewd move. Time (and subscriber churn numbers) will tell. The vast amount of lemmings out there will determine what they do next. Although our voice may be listened to occasionally when bugs strike, our market power is zilch in getting management to listen to us and change their strategy based on our griping.

E* still has the superstations, CBS-HD, and the Internationals in the Pro column. D* has HDNet, ESPN-HD, and a few other channels in their Pro column.

We are on the brink of a MAJOR change in capability and I am planning on waiting it out to see how it all plays out. If after a year, we are still arguing about a lot of these issues then I would think about jumping ship, but once you look at the long term view E* has the greater POTENTIAL. However, I can hear all of the E* bashers dusting off their flamethrowers as Charlie has let us down before with vaporware and promises that haven't been fulfilled. If done right, E* can continue to close the subscriber gap as they have for the last 4 years. If they shoot themselves in the foot, they can derail the whole thing.

Well, the old chinese curse will be upon us for the next year...........

"May you live in interesting times......"

Grab your popcorn this should be good (and the forums will be buzzing for months over both good AND bad news)



I agree, the future of Dish looks bright to me if Charlie can pull it off without to much churn. Of course when Rupert gets Directv at the end of the year of the begining of next year, things might get interesting there also. And now Cablevison's Rainbow sat service is 2 months away. Will it be in hdtv? They say they have to potential to do it.


Interesting times indeed..........

[EvanS]

...E* still has the superstations, CBS-HD, and the Internationals in the Pro column. D* has HDNet, ESPN-HD, and a few other channels in their Pro column.

We are on the brink of a MAJOR change in capability and I am planning on waiting it out to see how it all plays out....

Bob,
I could NOT have said it better myself!!! As a matter of fact I didn't say it myself :grin:. Since about 3 hours after the whole DVR fee issue reared it's head I have thinking the same thing and have meant to post something VERY similar to what you did. But I guess I just didn't have the heart or fortitude to have to defend my position...at least up until now. It seems that some of the backlash has subsided and this post may finally be "heard" for what it is intended to say.

Again, this is coming from a E* sub that has a 721 and 501 and AT150. To me it probably washes out since I would likely sell the 721, get a 921, pay the fee but downgarde to AT100. I would actually lose 2 SD channels that I watch with much interest.

Great post.

[Steve Mehs]

Another little perspective from a 5 year Dish Network subscriber

In the past 5 years I've seen many ground breaking technologies by both providers. Dish Network came out with the first integrated satellite receiver/DVR, they push HD, and utilized multisatellite location prior to DirecTV. But Dish Network has lost my support over the past few months. It might have started with the price increases. After both providers raised fees Total Choice and AT 100 were the same price again, but Total Choice had quite a few more channels.

DirecTV has numerous advantages to me, less public interest channels, less international channels, better music selection with the uncensored Music Choice, a partnership with TiVo for the most advanced DVR that is worth a $5 fee and being available in the big national electronics stores.

Not to mention a wide array for set top boxes from some of the biggest electronics manufactures out there. DirecTV may not be making money currently, but they do pony up the costs and make it a great service for their customers. Also DirecTV has their own in house satellite internet service. In addition, hardware costs seem to be lower for DirecTV, Circuit City once sold the Philips 5353 for $29, a basic no frills receiver that is comparable to the 301 but costs $70 less, but yet has the RCA and svhs outs that the 111 will lack and will like cost more the $29.

I'm also not impressed by the Charlie Chats of recent, some say it's great for the CEO of a company to interact with the customers like that. But look what the Charlie Chat has become, an hour worth of special guests and marketing crap. And I don't like how Charlie announces that channels could leave the line up due to high costs. There are something’s a company should keep private and there is no need to air dirty laundry.

I'm not bashing E*, I just don't like there service as much as I used to. I admit, I don't have a real reason not to like them, no install horror stories, no major hardware problems, billing problems and the DVR fee wont apply to me. When my mom drags me off to family events and such, and if we get talking about satellite TV (it does happen more then you think :) ), I no longer push Dish Network, I explain to them about DVRs and suggest playing with one and Circuit City or Best Buy.

DirecTV has some things I don’t like in the user interface, I don’t like the channel logos on the banner, I think that’s the stupidest idea, the channel ‘neighborhoods’ aren’t as well laid out as with Dish, and the Music Choice channels are not in order by their MC#, but with real rock channels that are uncut it’s not a big deal.

If it were up to me I would switch to DirecTV right now, they won me. But it’s not up to me, so I’ll be a E* sub trapped in the mind of a D* supporter for a while, but I will be a D* sub experiencing the TiVolution one of these days, that I can guarantee.

[mjschuyler]

Bob Murdock, great post. I feel much the same about E*. I've been a sub since 1996.

It does seem to me that the major problem with E* is equipment development. If all the new receivers 522, 811 and 921 were out and working as they are capable I think this would solve many concerns. I also think the Dishplayer fiasco with Microsoft has soured E* from partnering with other companies in design and manufacturing.

[ride525]

I watched most of Charlie Chat today......I was thinking heavily of moving from DISH to Directv.....Now I think I'll wait until September 8 and see what special deals DISH comes up with for SuperDish and 811 for existing subscribers.

I did note that Charlie mentioned once about 12 HD channels....
wonder when :)