View Full Version : So where is my grounding rod?
We bought this house back in March. It's got undergound service entrance, meter outside on the side of the house, 1 main breaker there, heavy copper to the main breaker panel in the garage.
At the time we bought it, no one could figure out where the ground rod was. There's a ground rod where the water pipe enters the house at the opposite side of the house, but I think that is only there due to new copper pipe installed a couple of years before we bought. At least all the water lines are bonded.
But where oh where is my ground rod? Best I can figure is the previous owners buried it under concrete when they poured new patios and walkways in the side and backyard where the meter is. To make it worse, that part of the house is on slab, no crawlspace, no attic.
Home was built in 1972. One electrician said they probably didn't even use a grounding rod since it was underground service. Said he'd seen it that way in a lot of houses in this area built in that time frame. He didn't think there was any way to locate the ground point, if any under the concrete walkways.
So, next thought is if I install a dish and OTA antenna, I'd like to ground it. The wireless internet was recently installed (no DSL, cable tv is primitive in this neighborhood, right in Silicon Valley), they didn't bother grounding anything (should have!)
What are my options?
1. Install new ground rod in convenient place (not near service entrance), ground to existing wiring at nearest point.
2. Bore hole in concrete near service entrance, ground meter box to new rod driven in bored hole. (box is flush with exterior wall, would look messy or require cutting stucco/refinish).
3. Just toss the antennas on the roof and cross my fingers. (seems to be what everyone else in neighborhood is doing)
4. Something else?
I found evidence of a grounding cable in the garage where the old galvanized waterpiping was. The cable is hanging loos, appears to run into slab, or perhaps through a wall to the meterbox outside.
jimisham
08-28-03, 08:15 AM
That's a good question. I'm wondering the same thing here. We had a house built in 1973 with the electrical service buried and there's no evidence of a ground rod.
I called the local electric company (AEP) and asked them. They had no idea what was required then as they were doing very few buried installations at that time. I was told that now, and possibly then, the customer is required to have an 8 foot ground rod installed before they will install service.
If I've got one, the ground rod is buried and the wire from the ground rod is coming up through the pipe to the meter.
My cable company ran a ground to the pipe between the ground and the meter. That might be your best option.
I'm going to be replacing my Directv cables, getting ready for locals, and when I do that's where I'm going to be grounding. Right now the cables aren't grounded at all and there's a 6 foot ground rod grounding the dish.
You should be able to find what is grounding your electrical system by examining the inside of the main electrical panel and following the ground wire out of there. I know in my house the grounding system installed is called (I think) a UFER which the home inspector told me is a grid of grounding wires installed in the slab foundation. Your cables should be grounded to the same ground as your electrical system. The dish grounding I believe is for lightning protection and doesn't necessarily need to be bonded to the electrical system ground but needs to be of sufficient size to be able to ground an lightning strike. ( your local electrical code may differ). I would be sure to ground your cables for electrical operational purposes. I've never grounded my dishes. I don't live where lightning is prevalent and there is some debate that grounding your dish makes it a more attractive lightning target.
If you don't find an electrical ground in your electrical panel that's a bad thing and you or an electrician should fix it so it has a ground. Sometimes happens when a house used water piping for grounding and then replaced the main water line with PVC without providing a substitute ground.
Richard King
08-28-03, 10:53 AM
The dish grounding I believe is for lightning protection Correct.
and doesn't necessarily need to be bonded to the electrical system groundIncorrect. This would result in a ground loop since the dish would be grounded at the dish location and at the house ground through the grounding block. Two different grounds creates a loop. but needs to be of sufficient size to be able to ground an lightning strike.Incorrect. That would require a huge conductor to be able to ground a direct strike. The ground connection is to pass off static charges on the dish to ground so that the dish doesn't act to attract a lightning strike.
Tomsoundman
08-28-03, 11:28 AM
Actually what you should have said in that last paragraph is:
this enormously demands it of a head of the orchestra to the box,
corrects a direct influence must to the electrode of the earth in
the earth ulteriorly something the static expenses in flagstone al
crosspiece of the earth the action del flagstone not to press with the
surprise del ray.
I love the Translator: http://www.tashian.com/multibabel/
Richard King
08-28-03, 06:07 PM
Wow Tom, you sound just like James F :lol:
waydwolf
08-28-03, 09:34 PM
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU EVER INSTALL A GROUND ROD YOURSELF. PAY A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN TO INSPECT AND FIND GROUND AND MAKE IT ALL UNIFIED AND THEN HAVE YOUR TOWN INSPECTORS CHECK FOR CODE COMPLIANCE.
As was pointed out earlier, ground loops must be avoided. Failure can throw off the neutral line which is bonded to ground at the service entrance, resulting in electrical motor overheating and fires. My father was a volunteer fireman for years and saw washers, driers, refrigerators, chest freezers, etc. go up in flames(taking the house with it) as a result of improper electrical ground.
Also, you really don't want a fault that may develop at some point to go to ground through you or any other appliances, causing fire and/or electrocution.
LarryS wins the prize. I got me an Ufer ground system. No rods, period. Concrete encased grounding electrode in the slab. One wire out of the slab to the service entrance on the north side of the house. One wire comes out on the south side inside the garage and attached to the original galvanized water piping.
Sorry wolf, but my experience with electricians and "professional" installers is what got me into this mess in the first place.
Thinking some more it is true that the dish is electrically connected to the LNB and the coax shield so Rking401 is correct that grounding the dish to a separate ground rod would create a ground loop. But since they are connected grounding the cable only, also grounds the dish at least in respect to static charge.
Number 6 copper solid wire is what is normally used to ground dishes and antennas. I regard this as heavy wire. If you ground your dish to another ground post ( 8' driven in ) then you will have to bond ( run #6 wire ) to your electrical service ground.
I don't however buy that bleeding off static charges cause the dish not to attract lightning. Think about a lightning rod on a barn. It is very well grounded and attracts lightning like crazy. Lighning wants the quickest path to ground that would be the highest object with a faster path ( metal better than air ) to ground. It hits trees because they are high and contain a lot of water which conducts faster than air into the ground. So mounting your dish low is best. I used to live in Truckee where we got snow 5-8 feet at a time. I'd laugh at the people putting their dishes on the peak of their roofs where there is no way they could reach it with a broom. A good 2-3 days of snow fade until the snow melted enough to clear the dish. :)
waydwolf
08-30-03, 08:38 PM
LarryS wins the prize. I got me an Ufer ground system. No rods, period. Concrete encased grounding electrode in the slab. One wire out of the slab to the service entrance on the north side of the house. One wire comes out on the south side inside the garage and attached to the original galvanized water piping.
Sorry wolf, but my experience with electricians and "professional" installers is what got me into this mess in the first place.
It is the LAW that household electrical ground NOT be in ANY way installed OR modified by anyone but a licensed electrician and must be in compliance with the NEC(weaker standard, from the NFPA) AND your local town and state codes(stronger than the NEC which is where they START), in almost every locale in the US of A. THE LAW.
There's a really good reason and if you don't want to buy it, then that's up to you. You might want to update your will before the house fire or electrocution if you decide to monkey with it.
In California at least a homeowner can apply for a permit, do their own electrical work, and have it inspected by the County without any need for a licenses electrician. I know I did my own and you'd think the county inspector would have said something about not having a licensed electrician if it was a law. Maybe its a Connecticut law?
I've seen too many mistakes made by licensed electricians working in tract home construction to buy off on the "licensed" makes the difference. Often times the construction companies squeeze too many pennies and are worried too much about deadlines and that is passed on to the electricians working on the project. At any rate surely the satellite installers are not going to be licensed electricians and they're the ones installing the dish grounds.
It is the LAW that household electrical ground NOT be in ANY way installed OR modified by anyone but a licensed electrician and must be in compliance with the NEC(weaker standard, from the NFPA) AND your local town and state codes(stronger than the NEC which is where they START), in almost every locale in the US of A. THE LAW.
There's a really good reason and if you don't want to buy it, then that's up to you. You might want to update your will before the house fire or electrocution if you decide to monkey with it.
OK, before this goes any further off track:
1. My original post is not about screwing with the ground rod, it's about FINDING it in the first place so I can connect the antenna masts to it.
2. I've never seen a house that didn't have a ground rod before, because where I grew up, Ufer grounds were not code. It seems that where I live now, they are.
3. I've got an Ufer ground.
4. installer and two licensed electricians all said, "Don't bother with grounding antennas we don't get much lightning" or "just drive a rod anywhere". Wrong answer in both cases.
5. I can read and the library does have a copy of the NEC.
6. If I do put in a grounding rod, it will bond with the Ufer at the service entrance, see number 5.
7. I may yet elect to hire licensed electrician to do the job. However, I need to decide what precisely needs to be done beforehand. (see item 4 in my list).
8. I have a level of knowledge and skill above that of the average homeowner. Should I choose to do this myself, I'll be certain that I can handle it safely and in a manner that is not in conflict with local code.
9. There is an incorrect grounding situation already present in the home, installed by licensed professionals. (see number 4).
It is the LAW that household electrical ground NOT be in ANY way installed OR modified by anyone but a licensed electrician and must be in compliance with the NEC(weaker standard, from the NFPA) AND your local town and state codes(stronger than the NEC which is where they START), in almost every locale in the US of A. THE LAW.
There's a really good reason and if you don't want to buy it, then that's up to you. You might want to update your will before the house fire or electrocution if you decide to monkey with it.
waydwolf
09-03-03, 10:48 PM
In California at least a homeowner can apply for a permit, do their own electrical work, and have it inspected by the County without any need for a licenses electrician. I know I did my own and you'd think the county inspector would have said something about not having a licensed electrician if it was a law. Maybe its a Connecticut law?
I've seen too many mistakes made by licensed electricians working in tract home construction to buy off on the "licensed" makes the difference. Often times the construction companies squeeze too many pennies and are worried too much about deadlines and that is passed on to the electricians working on the project. At any rate surely the satellite installers are not going to be licensed electricians and they're the ones installing the dish grounds.
The DBS installers are NOT to install household electrical grounds. Even DTV and Dish Network have been forced to make that clear even if they don't have any infrastructure whatsoever for QC checks of installs to make sure. They are to ascertain where the house ground is, and to use it. They are NOT to install one of their own if it isn't there and MUST fail the install if it isn't.
Not here in CT or any other state I've worked(MA, RI, NY) are the electricians lazy or cost cutting. My grandparents' house addition cost us sh*tloads of money for the wiring and the inspections were failed at the slightest thing wrong (inspections were done every other day, literally). The license for electrician is NOT easy to get and IS difficult to pass without real knowledge of the codes and practices. They don't cut corners. If anything, it is the homeowners monkeying with things that really screw things up.
Again, my dad was a firefighter for a long time and regularly went to house fires caused by wiring problems which had not been committed by a licensed electrician most of the time, but a homeowner who thought getting a Time-Life book out of the library was all they needed to do.
Cable companies are (usually) VERY careful to teach their technicians to NEVER monkey with ground and if there isn't one (like on a very old house) they are to fail the install immediately and not proceed any further until an electrician rectifies the situation. I did a system where the field services hadn't bothered following this and the local inspectors when made aware made quite a stink about it. There's talk of a project to redo several thousand drops
Meanwhile, the majority of DBS install outfits are still thinking they can put in four foot ground rods, ground to garden hose spigots or electrical conduits, or not even bother to ground. And the DBS purveyors don't do a good job of getting it across to people the importance of a proper grounding, leaving it to a veritable footnote in the instruction manual. They've told the installers not to wing it, but again there is no system of checks and balances to make sure.
The DBS installers are NOT to install household electrical grounds.
Wolf, that's the whole point of why I posted in the first place.
My home is built with an Ufer grounding system. There is NO ground rod.
The ground wire emerges directly from the slab and goes into the recessed service entry box on the north side of the house. In the garage, a similar ground wire emerges directly from the slab and connects to the galvanized water pipe. The house was re-piped with copper a couple of years ago. Who ever did the re-pipe did a weird thing, they installed a new ground rod where the water service enters the house on the south side (opposite electric service) and grounded the copper to that.
However, there's no bond to the Ufer ground anymore to the new copper water piping, just to the abandoned galvanized water pipe where it emerges in the garage. So there is an existing ground loop. This was all done under permit, apparently since the re-pipe required a permit. However, no record of an electrical permit exists. I guess the plumbers decided to wing it on their own.
So the question remains, where do you ground antennas in a house which (correctly) has no driven rod at the electric service entrance?
Mike500
09-04-03, 08:32 PM
Everything must be unified using #6 solid copper wire and approved UL listed grounding clamps. The copper pipe must be bonded to the galvanized pipe, the rod and the wire the emerges from the concrete. You can use UL listed split bolts to bond the new #6 copper to the wire that emerges from the concrete. A zinc clamp is used for steel pipe and a bronze clamp for the copper pipe. As an experience licensed master electrician, this is what I would do. Then, an antenna can be grounded to any of these items or points.
Some good technical but practical grounding stuff here:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_ptd_home.asp
I am not affiliated in any way with this company.
bigrick
01-08-04, 11:07 PM
so let's get an example of what the super pros would do if the dish needed to be mounted at one end of the house(let's say a 150ft run with many corners and new white stucco and the owner and installer didn't wish to have a house-wrap) because the 1 tv they were getting a dish run to was there. and the service ground is at the other end. please explain the technicalities of why and why not to do it your way. 8ft rod? no rod? Let's be perfectly clear here, the people are getting the dish(not being DQ'ed).
The first question would be what's required by electrical codes at the particular location?
That's what you do.
You can place another ground rod (8ft) anywhere you wish as long as it is placed in "conductive" earth. BUT this added ground rod must be bonded directly to the power ground rod using at least a #6 wire.
If your added ground rod is very far from the power meter ground it would be a good idea to add extra 8ft ground rods along the path of the #6 wire tie to the power meter ground. The more ground rods the better. But placing tied ground rods closer than about 10Ft provides no increase in the ground system's bond to earth ground.
Use some common sense here.
In the case of lets say 150Ft of ground cable, I would add an extra ground rod about every 25-50Ft along the path to the power meter ground.
Keep in mind that this grounding tie cable is outside, underground about 8-12in, and never enters the premises.
Ground the dish pole to the closest ground rod. Ground your coax feed seperately using a lightning protector (not a ground block - these are almost useless) designed specifically for satellite lnbs (Polyphaser IS-DB75F or IS-SB75F). Mount this protector inside a waterproof box and mount the box on the exterior at the location where the coax cable enters the premises. Then run a ground wire from the protector (follow manfacturers instructions) to the nearest ground rod. Important - This ground wire should be as short as possible - thus it is advantagious to place a ground rod, tied to the power meter ground rod, very close to this satellite coax lightning protector.
The whole idea is to provide the shortest, least resistive, most direct path to ground for any electrical energy that may flow on your antenna system. A ground rod wire tied directly to the dish pole does its job nicely. The coax lightning protector will "shunt" any energy which exceeds the signal characteristics of which it was designed to pass (lnbs). Unlike a "ground block" these lightning protectors will shunt surges flowing on the coax's center conductor. A ground block simply grounds the foil/braid sheild on the coax and provides little to no protection on the center conductor.
Again, what does the local building code say you have to do?
Again, what does the local building code say you have to do?
You will find that what I just described to you will satisfy most every local building code if you use and apply the proper hardware and bonding techniques.
Please read the Polyphasor links I supplied.
If you are not familiar with the specifics and/or don't undertand what a "ground" is then please employ a "professional".
sbill67
01-09-04, 09:21 PM
Some good technical but practical grounding stuff here:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_ptd_home.asp
I am not affiliated in any way with this company.
Thanks Paul very informative link.
JM Anthony
01-09-04, 09:50 PM
This is an interesting thread. What happens if the installer doesn't bother to install a ground at all? This is what I'm looking at. Hmmmmmm.
jwwahly
01-09-04, 10:24 PM
what i have done is put my ground block up outside first then run my 10 gauge into the basement less than twenty feet and tie on to A.water pipe as a last resort B. tie onto electrical conduit metal of course only if i can trace it all the way back to the breaker box. C.tie into the neutral in a elictrical outlet or junction box in the basement this is grounded with your neutral wire. these three and several others are permitted by the and do provide ground. But my first option is to always try to take my ground as close to the house ground as possible.
bigrick
01-11-04, 08:16 PM
OK, so now we are aware of the options as a homeowner, but this was not exactly what I was asking. I am wondering in these situations, what is the best way to handle them as an installer. I know many that still use the 4ft rod, I know this is bad because it creates a loop. After answering this with regards to the fact that Dish techs don't carry 8ft ground rods, let alone 3 or 4 for each job and hundreds of feet of wire, could you all talk alittle about how you handle other situations that may be similer. And also, would it be ok to ground to the ground wire in a junction box in the attic if the guy wants the wire to run in from the roof through the vent?
jwwahly
01-12-04, 10:45 PM
I thought i answered this but yes to the junction box if you read what i said i beleive i answered your questions.I am not trying to be a smart $%#,but i should have also stated that i do put the ground block inside on occasions against what my employer states.Now comeing from the dtv quality control tech. for my area he stated that yes i can put this inside but useing your own ground rod is not good unless you tie it in with the main house ground anyway,so as far as running wire you would have to run a 6 gauge wire from this rod to the main ground to make it right.Now where i said to the cold water trace the ground and see if it is attatched to cold water if so then you can use the cold water pipe as long as there are now plastic connections in it.Now here comes the arguement 50% say you are grounding to the pipe the other half say to the water thru the pipe.
One thing you should keep in mind when deciding on a ground hookup for a lightning protector: WHERE CAN/WILL THAT ENERGY GO? Will it travel through the water pipes and possibly through a person in contact with a facet or taking a shower? Will it travel through the house wiring and possibly through every electrical device that is plugged in? The only way to know with some certainty is to bypass them and go directly to a ground AS CLOSE TO THE POWER METER GROUND AS POSSIBLE.
The best route is always the most direct route to ground.
I know there are all sorts of problematic situations for installers but all I can offer is the above general rule. Deviate too far and you may create a possible personal injury issue. The insurance company will investigate the cause and you will hope it doesn't point to you.
I am playing devils advocate here and not trying to cause an argument. I simply wish to help you as well as your customer.
I strongly urge you to read through ALL of PolyPhaser's material. IMO, it is definitive and includes the situations a few here describe.
Good luck!
jwwahly
01-14-04, 03:35 PM
I understand that that is why i always try to get ground on the main house ground as i already explained in a pravious comment,but he wants the easiest way for him and allthough i dont agree with what he wants to do he was looking for an alternative for his setup.But you hit the nail on the head with an electrical discharge rout
lifterguy
01-23-04, 02:15 PM
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I just started reading this thread today, and it has raised some questions that I'm trying to understand. My electrical service and my dish are on the east side of my house. All are connected to the same ground wire, which attaches to something at the ground. I assume there is a ground rod there, but I'm not sure as the house is about 100 years old.
I mounted my TV antenna on the west side of my house a few years ago. At the time, I carefully followed directions shown on a diagram from Radio Shack. I would have loved to have had a professional install my TV antenna, but I could not find anyone willing to do it. (Believe me, I made a lot of calls.) Based on my Radio Shack drawing, I sunk a 4-foot ground rod on the east side of the house, and grounded the TV antenna to that rod.
Now if I understand the earlier posts correctly, I have created a dangerous situation here by having two distinctly different grounds. Can someone explain to me in layman's terms how the "Loop" creates a dangerous situation, and a cost effective way to remedy this? I'm not sure running #6 wire around the perimeter of my house, with numerous 8-foot ground rods secured to the wiring along the way is a viable solution for my problem. Moving the antenna from the west side of the house to the east also is not an option.
There are many sources on the internet that can probably explain ground-loops better than I. Give Google a try if my explaination isn't clear enough.
A ground loop occurs when two interconnected electrical devices (EX: TV & Antenna coax) are also connected to two seperate ground reference points. In your case you have a reference ground at your 4 foot rod (antenna) and another at the power meter (TV). Since the planet earth is not a perfect conductor you have two distinct seperate grounds. If you were to place a voltage meter across these 2 ground rods you will probably measure a voltage. That means that current is flowing between your two ground rods. That is a ground loop. One ground is a better ground than the other. In your case I almost guarantee it.
Electricity will seek the easiest, least resistive path to ground.
Electrons are lazy.
If two electrical devices are hooked up to each other, and each of those devices are referencing a different ground, than there is a high potential that electrical current will flow to the ground with even the slightest lower resistance. That means electrical (lightning) energy can and will flow from your TV antenna through your TV coax, through your TV, and any other conductive devices (including humans), all in lightning's ultimate goal to reach ground. AND lightning loves to "explore" your copper wires during its tour and will go places you least expect it hoping to find the best route to ground. It is sorta like you driving, lost on the road, trying to find a shortcut back to the highway. Do you feel a danger yet? Good.
The key is to offer this energy an unambigously easy autobahn to ground. Don't even let it hesitate for a millisecond at an exit ramp. Give it a wide express lane as straight as possible to an 8 foot ground rod.
The solution for you, which you will not like, is either move your TV antenna to the other side of the house and use the ground rod at the meter. Or sink another 8 foot ground rod next to your existing ground rod and switch your ground connection to the 8 footer (4 foot is NOT an effective ground rod). Then you must run at least a #6 or larger copper wire around your house in a trench about 6-12" deep to the power meter ground. AND, this is important, sink additional 8 foot ground rods along this route every 20 feet and bond the #6 wire to them. This will effectively join your existing two seperate grounds into one single reference point. AND it will improve your overall ground to earth for your entire house. You can never have too many ground rods.
I know this is not what you wanted to hear but any other solution will likely not satisfy code and may have the potential to cause bodily harm. That is, after all, what we are trying to avoid here.
Be safe, good luck.
lifterguy
01-24-04, 08:51 AM
[QUOTE=Paulcl]There are many sources on the internet that can probably explain ground-loops better than I. Give Google a try if my explaination isn't clear enough.
Thank you. That was a very good explanation. Of course you're right, that wasn't what I want to hear, but I will try to resolve the problem I've created.
One other thing I should throw in here to be complete about ground loops. They are notorious for causing fanthom problems with sensitive electronic gear. One example you will find in a thread here is their Caller-ID doesn't work. It turns out that his coax was not grounded. Sure enough when he connected the ground block to "ground" it worked. Removing the ground again disabled Caller-ID. That is just a single example. If you find one of your DBS receivers functioning eratically or strangely and nothing you do seems to solve the problem try investigating your grounding system to be sure you have a good ground as well as no ground loops.
jwwahly
01-26-04, 08:35 PM
One other option if you are useing coax wire from the ant. Buy RG6 with a messanger wire on it and run it to the other side of the house and put a ground block up and run a 10 gauge wire from the other side of the block to the house ground.Why i say RG6 coax this is what i use for my ant and it works real good.
SSW_Exposure
01-27-04, 07:33 PM
This thread has so much mis-information, from reply to reply I would go from the hair standing on my neck to LOL. (ROFLOL)
There is also some good info, but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth (maybe a dime).
If your house is "...about 100 years old", probably the better part of your wiring is 'not up to code'. But without gutting the whole inside (your plumbing isn't up to code either,along with structure, fire stop, etc,etc) you just do the best that's possible.
-----
First grounding is not (NOT) for lighting protection You can't supply a big enough wire from the dish to the best ground to carry enough Amps to keep the current from making the wood in your house a conductor also.
The reason you ground coax (and dish etc) is in case a component that is attached to your coax 'shorts' to the coax (internally mostly) you don't have a 'hot voltage potential' to the coax, hence getting shocked (electrocuted) if you were to touch the dish or an F connector.
Yes, ground loops can cause problems, but only 'shocking' (deadly shocking) if there is a contributing problem with the wiring in the house.
In the best grounded coax this with show-up when you go to hook up the coax to a receiver (that is plugged in) and it tries to weld itself together.
The normal ground loop shows up as some piece of electrical equipment not working. In this forum it would be the receiver.
There is no substitute for proper grounding, but in a 100 year house, you can't always do what you can in a new home.
If you can get a wire from your ground block to your electric panel ground that is best (usually). But what you are trying to accomplish is to have any 'short' in a piece of equipment (or some other cause) to allow enough current to pass for a moment to make the Circuit Breaker 'trip' or fuse 'blow'.
I have seen this done buy using the water pipe (metal) coming into the home as a ground, or as you have described you water pipe are already connected to ground. Or connecting to the ground of a near by outlet.
--------
Now for the other big 'mis-information'
I don't like to pick on anyone directly, but I need to get the hair on my neck back down.
Think about a lightning rod on a barn. It is very well grounded and attracts lightning like crazy.
A lightning rod has a Point on the tip. This is to allow electrons an easy escape from from the earth and neutralize the voltage potential from the earth to a passing storm cloud. Thus preventing a lightning strike. If lightning rods where designed to attract lightning they would have a metal ball on top, and why would you want your barn/house struck by lightning. (read my 3rd paragraph again).
A barn that has lightning rods that "attracts lightning like crazy", has already burn down.
Well that's got to be at least 11-12 cents,
SWW
Mike500
01-27-04, 07:55 PM
If your house is 100 years old, you have "knob and tube" wiring, 60 amp service, no grounding, and above all, a very very dangerous sityation. It is due to be completely rewired. If someone had insulated the house since it was built, you've got a firetrap, since "knob and tube" requires air exposure to keep it from overheating. It has four 15 amp circuits. Almost always, someone has overfused these circuits, and they have been overheated.
Here in Greenville, SC, a "Comfort Inn" built in the 1980's met code, and is grandfathered to comply without sprinklers. Yet, six people died in a fire. The Rhode Island night club fire was fully inspected and passed. Nearly 100 persons died there.
Safety is nothing to scrimp on. I prefer to upgrade everything, including the grounding system, as soon as codes change. Code is bare minimum. The Columbia space shuttle met "flight certification." I perfer to go way above code, when it comes to safety.
SSW_Exposure
01-27-04, 08:34 PM
I{f} your house is 100 years old, you have "knob and tube" wiring, 60 amp service, no grounding.
This sounds as if being presented as fact.
My home is over 100 years old, and none of the above is in anyway fact.
But are you saying I also shouldn't use the built-in gas lamps on the wall any more???
If I need to update it will have to wait as I just updated to a coal furnace, from just keeping the cattle in the basement to warm the house.
I couldn't resist
SSW
Mike500
01-28-04, 06:53 AM
Yeah,
Unless, when it was built, there was no wiring. In 1904, knob and tube was the only wiring available. Your wiring must have been added later. So, it is not 1904 wiring. I can remember in the 1950's some of the wiring in New York City still operated off of the DC generators off of Thomas Edison's original Pearl Street station. You could'nt have a TV, because all TV's were AC.
SSW_Exposure
01-28-04, 08:21 AM
Yes, At one time my home had knob & tube. I still can find some of the posts in the joists. And at one time it had, what I'll call twin cloth insulated wiring, I've found some of this and it seems like they didn't use junction boxes yet, but would use a roll of black tape(the cloth kind also) at each connection.
On the latest update (that I did), got rid of the last of the 14/2,12/2, added 200A panel, gfci's/coax/cat5/security cams/ and home automation that would make a contractor for a new house drop his jaw.
But it's still 'a hundred+ year old house'.
Funny thing about TV's,,,, Plugs into AC, then inside gets rectified into DC, then osculated back to AC, then rectified back to DC :eek2: (but that's a different forum).
SSW said: "First grounding is not (NOT) for lighting protection"
Grounding IS for lightning protection. Of course that is not its only purpose. There is no other means to protect your equiptment from lightning short of removing it and shipping it back to the store.
SSW said: "You can't supply a big enough wire from the dish to the best ground to carry enough Amps to keep the current from making the wood in your house a conductor also."
Nothing will protect you from a direct lightning strike. But most of the effects people experience in their home is from strokes which have occured near their homes. It doesn't require a direct stroke to experience damage, including personal injury. Personal injury can occur with as little as 50-150 mA (milli-amps: that is not a typo).
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/construction/electrical_incidents/eleccurrent.html
No one can predict the consequences to your safety by not having the appropriate ground system and protection from lightning energy. Lightning is upredictable. Your best protection is to give it a straight and electrically wide girth to "ground".
The main column of lightning has many smaller side "shoots". If after a thunderstorm your house is still standing, you are still concious and there are no visable signs of a direct lightning stroke but the cordless phone no longer operates or your clock radio is on the fritz then you have most likely experienced the effects from nearby lightning energy. Lightning creates an Electro-Magnetic Pulse which induces energy into any nearby conductive material. Including nearby antennas, dishes, electrical wiring, telephone lines and what have you. Your home is filled with beautiful, highly conductive copper wires which lightning energy can and will traverse through. AND the human body is a very good conducter of electricity.
You need to design your coax feeds so that this energy is safely dissipated to "GROUND". ALL ground systems MUST be incorporated into the power meter ground.
SSW, if you have any doubts please thoroughly read the links I had provided earlier in this thread.
Mike500
01-28-04, 05:31 PM
Yes, At one time my home had knob & tube. I still can find some of the posts in the joists. And at one time it had, what I'll call twin cloth insulated wiring, I've found some of this and it seems like they didn't use junction boxes yet, but would use a roll of black tape(the cloth kind also) at each connection.
On the latest update (that I did), got rid of the last of the 14/2,12/2, added 200A panel, gfci's/coax/cat5/security cams/ and home automation that would make a contractor for a new house drop his jaw.
But it's still 'a hundred+ year old house'.
Funny thing about TV's,,,, Plugs into AC, then inside gets rectified into DC, then osculated back to AC, then rectified back to DC :eek2: (but that's a different forum).
The original wire was cotton covered or rubber with cotton cloth covering. In the industry, this stuff is now called "rag wiring." There was no requirement for junction boxes. Splices were soldered with the old line splice called the "Western Union splice" or rhe "T" splice. They were covered with rubber electrical tape and another covering of asphalt impregnated cloth tape, called "friction tape."
That rubber covered wiring was really tough to strip, because the rubber vulcanized to the copper conductor.
Another form of insulation was parafin impregnated cotton, ususally used in low voltage wiring.
Codes were not really enforced until the late 1940's and wiring was the major cause of fires. Rag wiring readily burned, when overheated. That's why it was required to be air exposed and on poreclain knobs and tubes. Exposed connections on attic and basement lights were still legal into the 1960's.
I remember seeing all of this stuff as late as 1968 at Woolworth stores.
bigrick
01-28-04, 09:38 PM
Thank you SSW for finally giving a reasonable explination that all intallers can use as a guide to grounding. The idea of grounding for lightning is ridiculous. Almost all satellite manuals state that there needs to be no grounding of the dish except in southern dry climates where static builds up from the dry wind blowing across the dish. This clearly is a sign that grounding the dish itself is to dissipate static charges, not lightning. Thanks again.
The idea of grounding for lightning is ridiculous.
Read the installation manual for any OTA TV antenna or ask any Ham. What do they ALL tell you to do? "Ground the mast/tower" - which is the equivlent of grounding the dish and mounting pole.
This clearly is a sign that grounding the dish itself is to dissipate static charges, not lightning. Thanks again.
Static is electrical energy. Lightning is electrical energy.
Have you ever seen the photo of two people standing on a hill, storm approaching, with their hair full of static electricity and standing on end? Those two individuals where struck by lightning very shortly thereafter.
If you are an installer and don't understand the relationship than I question your very basic knowledge in your field.
This entire thread is not to simply protect persons and equiptment from "lightning" but from any source of electrical energy which may come into contact or be induced into any type of outdoor antenna system. Including "static" electricity. Lightning is simply the most deadly and extreme of these circumstances. And in any good engineering design you design for worst case possibilities.
To ignore facts and wish away the possible hazards is completely irresponsible.
David_C
02-20-04, 06:02 PM
... I mounted my TV antenna on the west side of my house a few years ago. ... Moving the antenna from the west side of the house to the east also is not an option. The code requirement (which applies to satellite dishes too) is to have a grounding block "located as near as practicable to the entrance of the conductors [coax(es)] to the building." So another option for you to accomplish this is to re-route/replace the antenna wire so that it enters your house near where the electric service ground is, on the east side of your house -- without moving the antenna itself.
Then the question becomes: is it easier/quicker/cheaper to run a longer coax (and possibly need an antenna amplifier) or to bury the copper ground wire around from the west side to the east side.
David_C
02-20-04, 06:03 PM
... sink [an] 8 foot ground rod [near the ground block for the TV antenna]. Then you must run at least a #6 or larger copper wire around your house in a trench about 6-12" deep to the power meter ground. AND, this is important, sink additional 8 foot ground rods along this route every 20 feet and bond the #6 wire to them. I've looked through the NEC, asked my county electrical inspector, and found a reliable authority on the web (see links below). There does not appear to be any requirement to add extra ground rods along the buried ground wire. Of course, your own municipality may have codes that are more or less stringent than the 2002 NEC.
The links below are to the website for EC&M magazine (http://ecmweb.com/) (Electrical Construction and Maintenance). The have regular columns that answer questions about how to install wiring and grounds that meet code, as well as interesting ways that installers find to violate code (usually with pictures).
Here's the "Code Q&A" column from Feb 1, 2002 (http://www.ecmweb.com/microsites/magazinearticle.asp?magazinearticleid=141703&srid=11561&pageid=6938&Siteid=13&magazineid=31). In particular, see the first picture for the 'ideal' installation, and the next three questions after that (includes questions concerning apartments).
In the "Code Basics" column from Dec 1, 2003 (http://ecmweb.com/microsites/magazinearticle.asp?magazinearticleid=189194&srid=11561&pageid=6938&Siteid=13&magazineid=31), note the picture, about halfway down, of the house where the CATV service enters on the opposite side from the electrical service.
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