510 510 DVR fee same for the AT150 and AT100

[IndyMichael]

It doesn't make sense to me. I think it should be free for the AT150 level, since that's the top "normal" channel package, or at least less than the price for the AT100. There must be lots of people who don't get the Everything pack, because they prefer to get their movies from Netflix or movie rental stores. Also, it's much more likely that people would bump up from 100 to 150, as it would only be a few bucks more, and not the $32 it take to add the everything pak.

[tampa8]

Yep. Dish lost a 921 sale from me for that exact reason. If you are a TOP 150 subscriber (in my case with HBO/Cinnemax) paying $20 more a month every month ($5 DVR fee, $5 2nd receiver fee projected $10 HD programming fee) is not acceptable. I have already decided to live with OTA HD on my older DTC-100 receiver, and use my Panasonic DVD recorder that has a hard drive to record programs in addition to my 508. (can't record HD, but to save $240 every year I will live with that set up - the panasonic is very close to a DVR) And, there is the possibility we will have to pay for the superdish and switches to get the HD programming on top of buying the 921. It just seems to have become over the spending limit.

[Bob Haller]

E will only respond to actual lost subs and resistance to new subs paying the fee.

With no accomodation to people wanting to avoiid the fee it will be interesting to see what happens

[wcswett]

E will only respond to actual lost subs and resistance to new subs paying the fee. With no accomodation to people wanting to avoiid the fee it will be interesting to see what happens

I would think that dealers will be screaming that they can't sell 510's. There are eleven 501's, ten 508's and eight 721's available on eBay right now, and if many HDTV owners jump ship there will be more. Most 510's may end up as giveaways, which seems like a high cost for new user acquisition to me.

--- WCS

[Chris Freeland]

I would think that dealers will be screaming that they can't sell 510's. There are eleven 501's, ten 508's and eight 721's available on eBay right now, and if many HDTV owners jump ship there will be more. Most 510's may end up as giveaways, which seems like a high cost for new user acquisition to me.

--- WCS

Dealers will have no problem selling 510's because the hardware and instillation is FREE to new subs, any leftover 508's with no monthly fee that they may still have in stock will go for the full $299 and a 721 with no monthly fee will still be a whopping $599 and since these are not covered by the current promo's their will likely be little wiggle room for dealers to discount these units. Think about it, for new subs who get AEP they will be getting the 510 for FREE and no monthly fee. AT100 and AT150 subs paying $4.98 per month or just under $60 per year, it will take 5 YEARS before the 510 becomes more costly then a 508. Even AT50 subs who would pay $9.99 per month for the DVR fee, it will take 2.5 years before it costs them more. I doubt very many AT50 subs will even get a DVR, because most of these folks are on a tight budget and will not want to pay extra either up-front for a 508 or monthly for a 510..

[Jacob S]

I also think they should make it free for those that get the AT 150 package. Perhaps if they had better value package bundlings it would help them such as bundling a value package with each basic package level like AT 100, locals, and DVR then the same for AT 150 or perhaps, if need be, add a premium service to have the value package. All of a sudden Dish would be looking at an additional $10-$20 revenue in addition to the basic package.

[jeffwtux]

ChrisF: check your math, it's only 3 years and 4 months for the 510 to be as expensive as the 508 for NEW CUSTOMERS. With FreeDish, the 508 was only $199 not $299(I'm guessing that's the figure you're using when you said 5 years).

[rtt2]

I agree it should be free with the AT150. Dish is the low cost provider and will not have as many high end subscribers as DirecTV has. Why does dish have to copy DirecTV and make it no fee for only the top of the line package? Its not like they have to pay a TIVO licensing fee of $3 per subscriber like DirecTV.

[Jacob S]

For those existing customers that can get the $199 price for the 510 it would take 1 year and 10 months before it ended up costing you any extra than before with the $5 DVR fee. At $149 it would take an extra 10 months to bring it up to 2 years 8 months, so that would not be so bad. The bad part is that before you was saving money on the hardware, period. Now its different, you save money on the hardware but the longer you keep it, the more your savings tend to be ate away compared to before. If you kept the receiver for 2 years getting it for $199 and got $100 out of it when you sold it, then you would save $100 upfront, but lose $100 in the end when you sold it plus the price for the DVR fees, and this is considering you could get another similar deal on a DVR again. It would have cost you a total of $220 over a period of 2 years, in which is about $9 a month including the hardware cost.

[Chris Freeland]

ChrisF: check your math, it's only 3 years and 4 months for the 510 to be as expensive as the 508 for NEW CUSTOMERS. With FreeDish, the 508 was only $199 not $299(I'm guessing that's the figure you're using when you said 5 years).

Yes, that was true under the previous new customer promotion, however that promotion no longer applies and if a new sub attempts to purchase a 508 on or after September 1, they will have to pay the full $299 msrp for a left-over 508. A current sub should be able to get a left-over 508 available after September 1 for $249 for a stand-alone, this would still be a better buy for current subs because the break-even point for a 510 would be less then one year, however no one knows how long supplies will last for the no-fee 508?

[DarrellP]

Tampa8, buy yourself a HiPix card for your PC and turn it into a DVR for OTA, they only run about $299. Stick in a 200 GB dedicated hard drive and your're out a lot less $$ than buying/paying forever with Dish DVR.

[tampa8]

Tampa8, buy yourself a HiPix card for your PC and turn it into a DVR for OTA, they only run about $299. Stick in a 200 GB dedicated hard drive and your're out a lot less $$ than buying/paying forever with Dish DVR.

Yes. I have been thinking of doing just that! :p

[HTguy]

:listenup: I would think that dealers will be screaming that they can't sell 510's. There are eleven 501's, ten 508's and eight 721's available on eBay right now, and if many HDTV owners jump ship there will be more. Most 510's may end up as giveaways, which seems like a high cost for new user acquisition to me.
--- WCSThe DVR510s are giveaways. We don't have to sell them. We never make money selling satellite receivers anyway.

In the dbs biz we're selling the detergent, not the washing machines. The software, not the computers.

We give away the hardware or sell it at cost so you can get or keep getting the programming. And the carriers give you incentives like lower DVR fees (excuse me, Video-On-Demand Service fees) to buy more programming.

Doesn't everyone on this board realize all this by now?

[Chris Freeland]

:listenup: The DVR510s are giveaways. We don't have to sell them. We never make money selling satellite receivers anyway.

In the dbs biz we're selling the detergent, not the washing machines. The software, not the computers.

We give away the hardware or sell it at cost so you can get or keep getting the programming. And the carriers give you incentives like lower DVR fees (excuse me, Video-On-Demand Service fees) to buy more programming.

Doesn't everyone on this board realize all this by now?

Yes I realize this, but I used to sell E*, D*, P* and C-band through a local dealer back in the early days of E* when the dealers and E* made enough off of both the hardware and programing to actually pay a decent commission to us sales people ;) . I am not a good sales person, liked and knew the technical part to much, however with E* in those early days with the $0 down financing, the systems sold themselves to people who either did not have cable tv available or hated the cable company that did pass their house. :)

[Jacob S]

The difference between then and now is the hardware cost and with the hardware costs being at an all time low and the marketing of free or reduced satellite systems it would make it hard to make much if any profit off of the hardware. Back then C-Band was based more on making money off of the hardware and installation to provide them with a system with FTA channels vs. providing a system where there are monthly charges.

[CREST]

I don't think a fee is fair for ANY recording device. After all, what
are you paying extra for? You already bought the hardware; you
should not have to pay for the "priviledge" to use that device. All
it is basically doing is the same thing a VCR would do, with a few
extras. Save yourself some money. Buy a VCR instead, where you
have a physical medium which is interchangeable (tapes) on which
to record and save as necessary. The few "extras" the DVR offers
are really not worth "subscribing" to. True, tapes may not be all
the rage these days, but at least you can watch your favorite
programs again and again without a "fee" attached. The DVR may
be a little more convenient, but I'd much rather have tapes on
which to store my favorites.

[Jacob S]

I wonder how one should compare the DVR/VOD fee to? A VCR? Additional outlet fee? I am sure there are many more, just cannot think of them right now.

[CREST]

I don't think a fee is fair for ANY recording device. After all, what
are you paying extra for? You already bought the hardware; you
should not have to pay for the "priviledge" to use that device. All
it is basically doing is the same thing a VCR would do, with a few
extras. Save yourself some money. Buy a VCR instead, where you
have a physical medium which is interchangeable (tapes) on which
to record and save as necessary. The few "extras" the DVR offers
are really not worth "subscribing" to. True, tapes may not be all
the rage these days, but at least you can watch your favorite
programs again and again without a "fee" attached. The DVR may
be a little more convenient, but I'd much rather have tapes on
which to store my favorites. I subscribe to the everything package, so no fee is imposed if I decide on a DVR. I won't, however, because the value of archiving on cassettes rivals the bonuses of the DVR, also the fee is not fair to those who subscribe to a tier of programming matching their own individual needs. This is what satellite is all about; freedom of choice and freedom from the captivity that cable companies suckered in the innocents to buying into. Are the satellite companies following a poor example as a result of this fee?

[Chris Freeland]

I don't think a fee is fair for ANY recording device. After all, what
are you paying extra for? You already bought the hardware; you
should not have to pay for the "priviledge" to use that device. All
it is basically doing is the same thing a VCR would do, with a few
extras. Save yourself some money. Buy a VCR instead, where you
have a physical medium which is interchangeable (tapes) on which
to record and save as necessary. The few "extras" the DVR offers
are really not worth "subscribing" to. True, tapes may not be all
the rage these days, but at least you can watch your favorite
programs again and again without a "fee" attached. The DVR may
be a little more convenient, but I'd much rather have tapes on
which to store my favorites.

I don't know, I think those extra's would be awfully nice, like having everything I watch recorded on the buffer so if I fall asleep during a show (which I quite frequently do ;) ) I can save it and watch it later, can you do this unplanned on a VCR? Being able to watch one program while recording another or watching the beginning of a program while the end is still being recorded would be awfully nice, can a VCR do this? Or instant replay on a live show? I also would like not having to worry if a tape is in the vcr. I prefer having a DVR with no fee, but to me it would be worth $4.98 per month not having to mess with tapes, and their rarely is a show on satellite that I want to watch more then once or twice, for those rare occasions I will still have the old vcr just in case, however once DVD recorders drop in price a little more I may dump the vcr all together.

[Jacob S]

I do see people's point of view. People figure when they are paying the higher price up front that they are paying for those features. They do not want to pay twice for the same thing. I guess they figure if they can charge you for a satellite system then charge you for the service that they can do the same with the DVR/VOD features.

[Mike D-CO5]

You know ,when you have a vcr you do pay a fee for your shows you record. It is called buying vcr tapes so you can record the old fashioned way . I don't even know what the price is any more for tapes since I don't and haven't recorded anything to tape in quite a while, but I am sure it is comparable to a monthly fee . Especially if you want to record as many shows to vcr tape as you do to a dvr hard drive. Sixty to ninety hours of recording hard drive space compared to the same in tapes and I bet the fee would look good. I really think people should give up on this issue of fees. They are here to stay and Walstreet loves the idea from a business aspect. The only way you can escape them is to either upgrade to AEP or go back to a basic 301 receiver and Tivo . Opps !!Tivo charges a monthly fee also. It looks like you will pay either way to record a show . :eek2:

[Chris Freeland]

You know ,when you have a vcr you do pay a fee for your shows you record. It is called buying vcr tapes so you can record the old fashioned way . I don't even know what the price is any more for tapes since I don't and haven't recorded anything to tape in quite a while, but I am sure it is comparable to a monthly fee . Especially if you want to record as many shows to vcr tape as you do to a dvr hard drive. Sixty to ninety hours of recording hard drive space compared to the same in tapes and I bet the fee would look good. I really think people should give up on this issue of fees. They are here to stay and Walstreet loves the idea from a business aspect. The only way you can escape them is to either upgrade to AEP or go back to a basic 301 receiver and Tivo . Opps !!Tivo charges a monthly fee also. It looks like you will pay either way to record a show . :eek2:

I agree, I have yet to invest in a DVR (but hope to do so some day soon), I use a vcr to record Enterprise and other shows occasionally and rarely buy tapes, anything I want permanently I will buy a DVD copy. I know with DVR I would record much more frequently because I do not like the hassled of tapes, haveing the ability to just mark a program on the epg to record and not have to worry about weather I have a tape in the vcr or setting the recording speed and going thorough the hastle of setting up the timers and tape speeds is very appealing to me. I too agree that the DVR fees are here to stay, I just wish E* would see the wisdom of charging per account and not per unit. With E* programing we pay per account and then add the $4.99 mirror fee for each additional STB we have on are account, the DVOD fee should be covered by this mirror fee just like the programing is.

[Mike D-CO5]

It would be nice to have one fee for the whole house account for the dvrs but I don't think that Charlie is competing with Directv with this per receiver fee. It is more like cable with their digital cable boxes for like 9.99 a box monthly charge or Tivo with their 12.99 a box monthly charge. We can always hope that this per receiver fee becomes just one per account .

Maybe Charlie will see less people upgrade to these newer receivers but I doubt it. If anything Directv will probably follow with the same idea when they unveil their new 100 hour dvr. Perfect time to pull the same routine as Dish and grandfather all existing 35 hour Directv tivos and unload the new fee on new subs.

When Directv lowered their fees to 4.99 I figured that Dish would stay without fees to show themselves as the cheaper cost alternative but the opposite happened. Charlie saw that everyone was getting paid except him so he got in to the action. And when the existing 501s/508s/721s finally run out, including the refurbished models, you will have to upgrade to one with a fee or you will not have a dvr. So eventully we will all pay a fee or upgrade to a higher AEP package. Either way Charlie makes $$$$.

I just hope that Charlie will consider changing the software to allow name based recording ablility and folders and other upgrades to make the fee palatable to the existing subs who feel like they are getting the shaft. I still don't know why they can't allow name based recording, they had it with the original dishplayer.

Either way give people something for their money!! :soapbox:

[Jacob S]

It seems like Dish does not think that the $4.99 additional outlet fee is a good enough profit for the DVR/VOD receivers. They think that they should receive more of an extra fee for the higher priced receivers and think if they can afford the receiver, they can afford the fee as well, or think that since they did not have to pay all the money up front for the receiver then they would not mind paying the extra fee.

[jeffwtux]

Chris: That was my point. That the 508 free dish deal was better in the not-so-long run even for the new customers than the 510 was. Of course it's not available now, that's the point.

[Chris Freeland]

Chris: That was my point. That the 508 free dish deal was better in the not-so-long run even for the new customers than the 510 was. Of course it's not available now, that's the point.

My point is that new subs no longer have the option of paying $199 for a 508 with no DVOD service fee, even at that rate it will take 3years and 4 months to reach the break even point, a new sub now if they want a 508 if they can even find one, it will cost them the full $349 for a full one receiver system with a Dish500, and would have to pay the full $199 instillation fee or install it them selves because the 508 is no longer covered by the current new customer promotion.
My point also is that the dealers will not have any problem selling 510's when the hardware is FREE, and may not have any 508's in stock.

According to HTguy, who is a dealer I believe if I am not mistaken, he can correct me if I am wrong, for us current subs who have ben subs since at least November 15, 2002, the current customer promotion on the 508 for $199 with no DVOD service fee has ben extended untill January 31, 2004 wile supplies last, of course this is a no brainier for us that fall into that category.

[jeffwtux]

Chris: It's especially a no brainer when they offer it for $149. I could've had 3 at that price(also a NO BRAINER)!!! I'm so stupid. Can you believe I was actually debating even getting one. If you are out there, I would really like to thank the CSR who talked me into getting it for $149. Of course, I'm really pissed at the CSR for NOT CONVINCING ME TO BUY 3!!

[HTguy]

According to HTguy, who is a dealer I believe if I am not mistaken, he can correct me if I am wrong, for us current subs who have ben subs since at least November 15, 2002, the current customer promotion on the 508 for $199 with no DVOD service fee has ben extended untill January 31, 2004 wile supplies last, of course this is a no brainier for us that fall into that category. Yes, this is correct according to the business rules for the DVR Upgrade Promotion posted 8/28/03.

[Jacob S]

And this should make it seem like it would be more attractive to those customers given that the 510 has a fee associated with it. It would make the customers feel like they are getting a better deal than what than before. This also allows Dish to get rid of their older 501/508 stock.