What Charlie will say on September 8

[ride525]

Here's what I think (or maybe it's just hope?) Charlie will say on the next Charlie Chat (September 8, HD Special).

1. SuperDish coming out about October 1. Special promo of $49 installed cost. This will make it $350 with the 811 receiver ($299), or $50 less than Directv is offering their Hughes and Samsung HD receivers, with 3LNB dish, and installation ($399).

2. 811 receiver out about October 1.

3. 921 receiver out about end of year (2003) ;)

4. HD package may not be firmed up enough, but will consist stations to make is at least as attractive as Directv. I expect even better package than Directv, but not sure if Charlie will have firmed up all of it yet. Expect more info than from last chat here.\

What are your thoughts?

Jeff

[juan ellitinez]

keep dreaming..

[cbusbee]

I agree with most of your thoughts. On point #4 though, I expect a HD package to be announced. I expect the Superdish, the 811 receiver and the channels to be available in late Sept or early Oct. I understand that Beta testing will begin on Sept 15th with some of the new channels being part of it and others to light up on Oct 1st. I expect that ESPN-HD, Bravo-HD, HDnet, HDnet Movies, DiscHD and the InHD channels will form the package. I would estimate that this package would go for $15-20 a month. I for one would be willing to pay that and approximately $100 for the upgrade of Superdish and the needed switches to upgrade my system (with a one year commitment to the Top 100 programming or better). Those are my thoughts and/or predictions.

[jeffwtux]

Whatever the price is for the SuperDish upgrade, they better give a special price for people who purched the 6000+8PSK. These people have been lied to too many times. If it's only $49(I agree that's fantasyland), then it better be FREE for 6000+8PSK owners. Of course, there's no way he will let that question through on Sept 8. I don't care if 10 people call in with that question. They will reject all 10 of them.

[JMikeF]

Specifically to HD early adopters who have already spent a lot of $$$:

"Bend over, and stop your squealing!"

[JBKing]

"Stay tuned for the October Chat for some exciting news on SuperDish and HD. Now, let's meet tonight's special guest..... Jim Ferguson!" :eek2:

[RAD]

I've given up trying to guess what Dish will say about HD offerings. Even folks with 'inside' contacts (Scott) have been led down the garden path a few times.

As for your guesses, I think the 821 might be announced as being available the next day, I've seen some posts from folks saying they can't find a new 6000/6000U anymore.

On SuperDish they'll probably announce the pricing and availability but I would guess they won't make a 10/1 launch date. If the Chat is 9/8 and they aren't even starting beta testing until 9/15 that sounds too aggressive unless on 10/1 we all become beta testers of another bug ridden Dish product.

Programming, I hope they say they'll have all the available HD programming that's out now available but I'm still worried about the ESPN-HD not making it.

Lastly, the 921, even if they announce a date I won't believe it until it's actually sitting in my equipment rack. All too often we've been told it would be available in such and such timeframe just to watch that slip by and a new date announced. Remember, Charlie still doesn't even have this box and they've never demo'd an actual unit on a Charlie or Tech chat.

[rtt2]

I think that Charlie is going to HAVE to announce a cheap upgrade because of Rainbow DBS. On October 1 Rainbow DBS is supposed to launch and announce service. They are using a 18" dish so you figure that will be free in the install. They only have one satellite so only one LNBF will be needed and no fancy switches will be needed. Therefore the only major cost is the box. Rainbow will be using Motorola as a set to vendor and the box will be discounted somewhat with a 1 year contract. Charlie has to get the cost of Super Dish down enough to prevent customers from defecting to the lower cost upgrade. Charlie also knows he has a lot of customers with wing dishes pointed at 61.5 so switching to Rainbow will be very easy nd tempting if his Super Dish upgrade is too expensive.

[storminorm]

I just bought a 6000 with module for 499.00 at our local RATSHACK. I was surprised they had one but so far it works fine.

[Jacob S]

Rainbow may have HD offerings without the bigger dish but will not have all the local market offerings. I think Dish should and may very well include the SuperDish or at least make it optional to have it in the system instead of the Dish500 in markets where the local channels are available, perhaps for $50 extra.

[DenR]

Whatever the price is for the SuperDish upgrade, they better give a special price for people who purched the 6000+8PSK. These people have been lied to too many times. If it's only $49(I agree that's fantasyland), then it better be FREE for 6000+8PSK owners. Of course, there's no way he will let that question through on Sept 8. I don't care if 10 people call in with that question. They will reject all 10 of them.

I also have a 6000 +8PSK. Why should we get a special deal just because of this fact?

[storminorm]

We should get a good deal for upgrading since we paid so much for the 6000. Just tell them you will go with Direct and Dish should offer a deal to stay with them plus give us a special price to upgrade....I hope.

[mds54]

Geeze......after all we've been through these last few months (lies, misrepresentations, non-announcements, confusion, DirecTV taking over the HD leadership position, etc.) there are still some of you with hope that Charlie will come through for us next month???
As a current Dish6000/8PSK owner, I've had enough. DirecTV, here I come!

[Martyva]

Local cable goes up 9-2 and HD Sunday ticket is very attractive---i'm about 2" from Sept 8 of deciding whether to stay, switch or go over to the dark side :)

[Bowtieman]

Charlie has until the "Charlie Chat" next month. He had better convince me at that time or I will defect to Direct the next day.

[Mark Holtz]

Can someone in the Sacramento area tape it for me? Thanks.

[cws80us]

I expect that Charlie will once again be vague and non-specific. He won't give any specific dates or details on anything. We'll know no more after Sep. 8 than we know now. I predict one thing; he will use the phrase "we intend to be the leader in HDTV" at least one time, and as always it will be an empty promise.

[chris_h]

Can someone in the Sacramento area tape it for me? Thanks.

Will do, but don't forget that the VCR is dead!
Do you have an S-VHS capable player?

[Mark Holtz]

Will do, but don't forget that the VCR is dead!
Do you have an S-VHS capable player?I still stand by that statement. I could request a DVD-R, but I think the media cost would be too much.

Besides, after having a DVR, using a VCR as a time-shifting device seems.... primative.

[ride525]

I could request a DVD-R, but I think the media cost would be too much.

Shouldn't your attitude be you will spare no cost to see the September 8 HD Charlie Chat?

;)

[Peluso]

the solution that works for me is to just come onto the DBS talk chat room during the broadcast and watch what scott says. :)

[Martyva]

DVD-R and +R media are reasonably priced as are RW discs.

[wmayo]

Well, unless Charlie comes through this time, I think there is going to be a significant hemorhageing of HD/high end subs. The cost factor will be the maker or breaker first. Next would be more endless delaying of product. Next would be to turn Oct. delivery of HDNet/HDNet Movies into another falsehood, not to mention having ESPN-HD just hang out there in neverland.

It's thumbs up or down time - what are you doing to do Charlie?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Charlie defantately has plans, I can see the media wheels turning already in Denver. There are going to be some big announcements made, although even though some solid dates and channel information I see a bunch of people here at DBSTalk still whining because the new channels and equipment won't be available for another month (October)

I know waiting is the hardest part, but trust me the wait will be worth it. :)

As I have been told by a few at Echostar, this HD upgrade has taken longer then they wanted but they have so much invested in it now, it is going to happen. :)

Again I will say good things will come to those who wait. :D

[RAD]

There are going to be some bug announcements made,

Scott, with Dish's past track record on first generation hardware I think you nailed it on the head :sure:

If Dish actually has HARD dates announced and we can start placing orders I'll stick with Dish else I start checking our D* hardware come Tuesday.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Hehe. Damn fat finger. :)

Let me correct that. :D

[Greg Bimson]

There are going to be some bug announcements madeTalk about being first in fast-breaking news! :)

[cbusbee]

Here's hoping we get ESPN-HD, the HD nets, the INHD channels, Bravo HD, Cinemax and ABC.

[jeffwtux]

ScottG: not to make you defend Dish or Charlie, but how can you say that "good things come to those who wait"? What do you mean by good things? I take that to mean that the HD equipment upgrade will be CHEAPER, and you will get more HD channels for LESS MONEY. What else can it mean? Otherwise, what is the benefit of waiting? Less hassle of switching? Their big sales pitch better not be if you're patient and wait until next NFL and college football season, you won't have to switch. I personally, am very skeptical. I don't think there's going to be anything different from Dish's HD offering other than it will be delivered 6 months later. The extra channel of BravoHD won't be enough to make people think they were smart to wait 7 months and most of the NFL season to get the ESPN-HD. I predict many people are switching because of no ESPN-HD for Sunday night football.

[Jerry G]

I see a bunch of people here at DBSTalk still whining because the new channels and equipment won't be available for another month (October)

To be frank, I think it's folly and unfair to criticize those who are complaining. After all that's gone on over the past year, NO ONE should be criticized for complaining or "whining", as you put it.

Tell me Scott, how long into October do I have to wait to see these new channels? Will I be seeing them Oct 1? Will it bee Oct 31? If things start to happen Oct 1, realistically, I don't see a significant number of people being able to see the new HD channels before the end of October. And that really frustrates me. Charlie should put a number of these new HD channels on existing birds for a two or three month period and this should happen on 9/8. Sony's new DirecTV HD 300 receiver should be out by the end of the month. If it looks like I won't have the new channels by the first week in October, I'm leaving Dish. I don't care if Dish ultimately will be the better provider. I'm getting close to NOT wanting to do business with a company like Dish, regardless of anything else. I'm sick and tired of waiting and of Dish's empty promises. They created their own problems and we're stuck with them. Again, putting up some of the new channels now will go a long way to restore the loyalty and confidence that many Dish customers have lost.



I know waiting is the hardest part, but trust me the wait will be worth it. :)

I no longer trust any statement regarding what will transpire on 9/8. You and Dish can only expect people to have faith and patience for so long. For many, that patience has run out. People have dumped Dish already and people are still contemplating it. And I don't blame them.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Tell me Scott, how long into October do I have to wait to see these new channels? Will I be seeing them Oct 1? Will it bee Oct 31?

Chances are you WONT be seeing them then unless you have a local dealer trained to install the SuperDish.

From what I understand the SuperDish will not be sold for those doing a self install, so you will have to rely on someone to install it for you.

If you have a local retailer who gets training on it then yes you can see the new stuff in October.

[RAD]

Boy, is it getting nasty around here.

I was a very early adopter of DBS, getting DirecTV before Dish was even available. After spending more the $1,000 to upgrade my hardware for D*'s HDTV programming I switched to E*, after only 5 months, because I got tired of D*'s lack of offering one more HD channel, Showtime-HD.

While researching E* on the web it looked like their customers were fairly happy eith E*, of course there were some problems, but people said the company was more customer focused then D*. Heck, you even had the Charlie Chat where you could talk to the CEO on a fairly regular bases.


However it now looks lie E* has become just another large corporation that really just tolorates customers since that's their source of revenue. Dish should stop the practice of making pre-announcements of new services/hardware until they actually know for sure when it's going to happen and for how much. No more statements like' HDNet and HDMovies coming this summer' but more like 'On 10/1/03 you can call and order this programming for $x.xx per month'. No more showing hardware that's won awards for two years but still has no availability date.

Many years ago, IBM got in trouble for preannouncing new hardware of software, to freeze folks from moving to the compition and got their hands slapped. They started to change things so that if they said something would be availabe by the end of 3rd quarter you might of had to wait until 9/30 to order it but at least they made their date for when you could get something.

Charlie and Dish have a major public relations problem with some of their better customers here and need to rethink how their doing things. We're the folks that our friends and neighbors come to when they want to know what DBS system to get. In the past I've said Dish, even with their problems, but right no I can't make that recommendation. Yep, at some future date they may be the better choice for HD but there have been too many unkept promises made and Charlie needs to put up or shut up on the 9/8 Chat and better be careful of what he promises in the future. Just me two cents. RAD

[RAD]

Chances are you WONT be seeing them then unless you have a local dealer trained to install the SuperDish.

Scott, will Dish be providing a web page showing who the locally trained dealers/installers are? Will Sears or Radio Shack have folks trained to do this? I ask since my local retailer (had two stores in the area) went bust and the Dish web site doesn't show anyone that I would consider 'local'.

One Dish tech I talked to a month ago said that in the beginning only local retailers would offer this, is that still the case, we couldn't go through Dish and have them find an installer?

I can see this will become a new reason for Dish bashing, folks with dollars in hand ready to get this but can't find anyone to see it to them.

[cbusbee]

I agree that they should have or should put the HD nets and ESPN-HD on the current birds until time is given to customers to transition to the Superdish. Charlie did say by the end of summer. Who knows maybe he will keep this promise since summer isn't over until Sept 21. Technically he would be keeping his word if he makes it available on any satelite, whether or not we have the equipment to receive it is another question and/or a technicality. I just hope Scot is right and we receive really good news, and to me that would me a surprise in either channels being added or a low upgrade price for current HD customers and a quick time-frame for getting the Superdish and/or the 811. Only 10 days to go. I truly hope he make's our day and stops the migration to DTV...

[Scott Greczkowski]

Here is the description of the upcoming SuperDish Seminar for Retailers.

Understanding SuperDISH
Gain the tools you need to be SuperDISH savvy. We'll show you where and how SuperDISH will be needed and the incentives for new and existing subscribers. Also, learn the installation modifications necessary to ensure a quality SuperDISH installation.

The thing that makes me think that the SuperDish will be a hard install is the mention of "modifications necessary" to make it work.

Again in October some people will be watching the new HD channels, while other people won't it's because of all the new hardware needed that makes this possible, its not like on October 1st they flip a magic switch and you have all the new HD channels. I hope I am being clear in what I am saying. :)

[moooog]

"The thing that makes me think that the SuperDish will be a hard install is the mention of "modifications necessary" to make it work."

This is very frustrating to me if it proves to be true, I live in the middle of nowhere in MT and have purchased satellite equipment off the internet for years, and set up installations for family with no problems. This "professional installer" business is always an annoyance for things like Satellite internet etc. People from the East and West coasts just seem to have no concept of the logistics of our country. I purchased a NEC projector last year, and when I asked a NEC rep. about purchasing various mounting hardware etc. - he threw a fit about how I needed an authorized dealer to set it up - and recommended I have someone from Cedar Rapids Iowa come up for the install - as if Iowa was not that far from Montana! Of course I could find and purchase a mount if I searched the net, but I made my own ceiling mount and it works fine. We all know that Everyone in isolated areas has a dish and would guess that rural customers represent a sizeable demographic for the satellite industry - we were all among the first adopters of C-band - and these "professional installation" requirements are completely unfair and obnoxious. I have been waiting for a product like the PVR 921 and holding out hope for eventual local network broadcast satellite channels for years, and if I'm told I can't purchase these products due to the fact that there are no local authorized installers - I'll - I'll- ......well I guess I'll actually do nothing since I have no other options.

[dfergie]

I resist the idea of having some "installer" come on my property to install the superdish. The only dish I ever had an installer put in was a 10' C-band dish back when the videocipher was on the drawing board and a hand crank and pencil marks marked your satellite. Having been burglurized 20 years ago, I do not let strangers on my land, or in my yard and particularlly into my house. I have installed C-band, direct, dish and the dish 500 myself. I do the equivalent of either a dish or direct install at least twice a month when we go camping. Dish installs are mainly common sense. Again if a super dish has to be installed, I will put my 6000 up for sale and go HD direct or get a 4dtv sidecar and the HD sidecar and go back to C-band.

[Scott Greczkowski]

BTW the thought of no self installs comes to me from a few retailers who have met with their regional reps who have told them that this would likely be the case.

(I should note NO ONE from Echostar has told me this would be the case, although the folks from Echostar have been kind of quiet lately)

But my feeling if retailers are being preped for no self installs there has to be a reason.

I myself would rather do a self install as well, I did the 3 LNB DirecTV install with no problem (and even added a 4th LNB for ExpressVu with no problem)

Let's hope this is one of the things talked about on the next Charlie Chat. :) (hint hint!)

[Jacob S]

This reminds me of when Primestar would not allow you to self install, they said that they had to do it. Hopefully this does not increase the price in getting the product if they have to install it. Seeing how it has to be a larger pole and larger mount may have something to do with it as well, along with it being a medium power satellite and larger dish, it would probably be harder for the customers to install.

[Scott Greczkowski]

I say "hint hint" as a suggestion for them to mention this on the Chat.

If they don't I expect that a lot of folks will be calling places like DIsh Depot around October 1st and will be told "sorry we can't sell that to you"

Jacob is correct the 3rd LNB is going to be much harder to point due to the low power of the satellite, you will have to be MUCH more precise to get it correct. If you have installed a Dish 500 you will see there is much more play in getting a usuable signal, at 105 you really need to be dead on to get a good digital signal.

[Jerry G]

I say "hint hint" as a suggestion for them to mention this on the Chat.

If they don't I expect that a lot of folks will be calling places like DIsh Depot around October 1st and will be told "sorry we can't sell that to you"



I forsee a tremendous amount of frustration and anger as those who have been waiting so long for new HD channels try to find a "qualified" installer who also has the Superdish. It seems like many will have to end up waiting months to get the new HD channels simply because they can't find one of these highly technical and specifically trained installers.

This is absolute nonsense that Dish won't sell a Superdish to a customer and let him worry about getting it installed. This is yet another reason for Dish to put the new channels on existing birds for some period of time to take the pressure off of customers and Dish itself and allow the Superdish to be installed at a leisurely pace.

[scottchez]

I Checked with Two Dealers here in Nebraska.

None of them have even heard of SuperDish, the 811, or the 921.

I bet it will be many Months before some one out here on the prarie gets trained in it.

[John Kotches]

For those that have a much better clue on this topic than me....

Could Superdish conceivably be mounted with two different arms, one used for 105/110/119 and the other for 110/119/121?

I'm definitely not the most knowledgable when it comes to this topics.

Regards,

[RAD]

Although Dish has not come out and so stated to my knowledge, it is pretty obvious that two different versions of the Superdish will be needed....

In the August Tech Chat they did say there would be a 105 and 121 version of the SuperDish.

[Bob Haller]

I had planned on upgrading to super dish if only for added rain fade resistance. This summer has been terrible. That and getting some added access channels even if I dont get a HD set.

The no self installs is yet another negative for me. I enjoy doing things like this, provided its not freezing cold.

[newsub]

I had planned on upgrading to super dish if only for added rain fade resistance. This summer has been terrible. That and getting some added access channels even if I dont get a HD set.

The no self installs is yet another negative for me. I enjoy doing things like this, provided its not freezing cold.
well I had a Dish install person come out twice in 6 weeks (once for a regular install and another when i switched from the free dish to the digital home plan so I could get a 3rd receiver(my 508 pvr)) and I haven't had any problems with the guys. They were both really nice. Of course either my dad or myself watched the guy install it and also falled him around the house to make sure he didn't try to take anything but all in all no problems here. I'm sure you'll get your bad egg every once in a while but for the most part i'm sure the installers 1: know what they're doing 2: if you tell them what you want or let them know what you want when you order it will be glad to oblige to your request. Forgot to say the 2nd installer showed up 3 hours early because he thought he was just doing a swap and was very nice when my dad explained he was adding a 3rd receiver.

[Bob Haller]

Oh i have no problem with properly trained equipped techs. Just I have met too many ill equipped untrained techs in many fields and just a couple days ago had a AOL DSL tech here who didnt have a screw or drill to mount my net splitter to my brick home:( If it quits raining I will do that today. Heck he didnt even have AOL in his laptop but it was rented and belonged to him not his employer. His visit was a grand waste of money and time.

DNSC doesnt have a very good reputation, have you seen the pictures oif some of their pro installs?

[Peluso]

These types of situations come from too much cost cutting pressure.

[xgrep]

These types of situations come from too much cost cutting pressure.That sums it up nicely.

I'll be very surprised if Charlie addresses this topic in the upcoming CC. If he does, it will probably be to say "no self-install, much harder than other dishes", which of course isn't really true, but that isn't the reason for the new policy, anyway.

We (the folks who are truly competent to self-install) should remember that we are a very tiny minority of the customer base. There is nothing a qualified professional installer can know that I can't (or don't already) know. Weak signal? Nothing a good satfinder can't handle (majority of installers don't use even a $20 satfinder). But the fact is that a much larger number of typical self-installers run into problems that create a large expense for E*. We all know those first line CSRs are not trained to handle the interesting self-install problems.

If you think about it, requiring professional installation is something they should've done ages ago (from a pure profit standpoint), but they probably decided the SuperDish was the straw that broke the camel's back, and they're finally going to use it as the excuse to institute this new policy.

I only wish I were in an area where I could use the "there are no local installers" excuse to demand the right to self-install, but there are going to be quite a few around me.

Not that it matters, I'm on Comcast now. They came to install the cable, and the guy was competent, but cable is a lot easier than DBS.

x

[Bob Haller]

jen is so bothered by the bugs she mentioned going back to cable. I explained it has no pvrs. That ended the subject.

[GreyGhost00]

These types of situations come from too much cost cutting pressure.
I really think that Charlie's attitude in this respect is what continues to hamstring Dish. It's reflected in inferior equipment, uneccesary delays in new programming and an inability to respond more quickly to DBS market changes.
I'm all for Dish making the most money for shareholders, but it seems as though this attitude overwhelms Dish at times, affecting every aspect of the company. It's evident that this attitude permeates the very culture of Dish, and I think several of the issues that folks have with Dish can be attributed directly to this.
It's precisely for this reason that E* remains behind D*, and will likely continue to do so for the forseeable future.

[Jacob S]

I think if there was going to be training for the SuperDish to make a mandatory professional installation then they would have done announced it by now so that the retailers would have plenty of time to be trained in time for the rollout of the SuperDish.

Also seeing how DirecTv's ParaTodos dish does not require professional installation in which will be their solution for providing more local cities, this would not go over well with consumers that would not be allowed to purchase the dishes themselves to do the install or activate the programming without having someone to come out to do it for them. People would not be willing to wait for days, weeks, or months to get the dish installed to receive their HD or local channels. I am sure that if there was such training required for this dish then there would be a huge shortage of installers that are trained in time for rollout or for a while after that.

People would get DirecTv instead and switch from Dish Network to DirecTv because they would not have to wait and have to have someoen come out to do it for them. Also if they were to provide everyone with the SuperDish in those markets to be included with the systems then having special training to install this dish would really back sales up and cause some problems. I figure they would have some systems with the SuperDish as an option instead of the Dish500.

[Mike123abc]

I do not think Dish has much of a choice with SuperDish installation. They will pretty much have to be installed by trained installers. With 105 at 60watts compared to 110/119 at about 220 watts combined with 2 degree spacing will make SuperDish very hard to install. When AMC-15 goes up next year and puts out 120? watts it could work with self install. The problem will be that the dish is so small and the wattage is so low, that a botched install would start having rain fade on a cloudy day. They are probably going to have trouble with rain fade with perfect installs until AMC-15 (unless they are real conservative on the FEC).

[ride525]

Here is the essence of my emails to Charlie and Dish this last week:

Me: Could you please give me some info on SuperDish and 811 availability and costs? Folks are leaving Dish for Directv because of lack of information.

Dish: Tune in the next Charlie Chat September 8.

Me: Tune in the next Charlier Chat has been answer for too long. Could you please just answer my questions.

Dish: I didn't answer my questions because I do not know.

Me: Could you find someone that does know. And please pass along my concerns to your supervisor and Charlie.

Dish: (did not reply at all)