508 fee grandfather date [Archive]

NEBUGEATER

08-29-03, 03:14 PM

My bother is trying to get a 508 set up for his account after seeing my two. He went to an independent dealer and they did not have a 508 in stock but he was told that the 508 had to be set up and activated prior to Aug 31 to be fee free. can anyone confirm this or was the Dealer just using this a a ploy to get him to buy / order a 510? Any other experience with this would be useful.

Bob Haller

08-29-03, 03:50 PM

Thats news to me. If its true its another indicator that all the E boxes are going to have the fee.

boba

08-29-03, 04:27 PM

The 501, 508 & 721 are grandfathered they will not have the DVR fee applied. If you are doing a new customer promotion only the DVR-510 will qualify after sept. 1, except in Digital Home Plan the 501 & 508 will continue to be used till the end of Sept. By then the inventory will probably be exhausted except for a few dealers that stocked up.

jgoggan

08-29-03, 04:47 PM

Well, just to go a bit more with what Nebugeater said, I just called Dish and pretended to be a new subscriber. They told me I could do the 510 thing -- and pay the monthly fee for it. When I complained about the monthly fee, they told me that I could do the 50x deal instead -- and just get a smaller hard drive (of course) -- and that there would be no fee PROVIDED that I signed up before September 1st. They told me that if I signed up after that, I would have to pay a fee even for the 50x deal.

In other words, they seem to be telling people that even 508 units will pay a fee if purchased after the 1st...

- John...

Bill R

08-29-03, 04:50 PM

The 501, 508 & 721 are grandfathered they will not have the DVR fee applied.
I think you should have added "in the near future". I think that the fee on the 510 is a "marketing test" and if they get away with it, ALL DISH DVRs will have a fee sometime down the road.

NEBUGEATER

08-29-03, 05:05 PM

ON thing I picked up from being on the phone with Dish today for a couple calls is that the DVR fee is per account not per receiver. I have been told this by a seasoned account rep and a supervisior. No I know that you cannot hold to what they say but this seems like a change to me and the first person I talked to said that it was difforent than origianlly anounced. I have not had time to go look at the DISH site to see what it now says. Can anyone confirm.

greylar

08-29-03, 05:16 PM

Hmmm, by the sounds of this thread its the account that is grandfathered not the box. I was hoping that having a no fee box would help support the aftermarket price when I upgrade, (probably to Tivo).

It also makes me think that this new plan is grandfathered ala Dishplayer lifetime sub. How many years before they decide to yank our grandfathered status. :)

Cheers,
DishCynic

Bill R

08-29-03, 05:42 PM

ONE thing I picked up from being on the phone with Dish today for a couple calls is that the DVR fee is per account not per receiver. Can anyone confirm.
A couple of weeks ago someone from DISH called me to discuss the DVR fee and a few other things. I made it quite clear to her that I (and many others) thought that the "PER receiver" fee wouldn't be accepted by the marketplace. She said that DISH would consider that and may change it sometime in the future.

I also heard that DISH was getting some flack from some of its dealers about the "per receiver" fee. I can't confirm that the fee is now "per account" but maybe all the flack over it caused DISH to change their mind.

One thing that I heard ISN'T going to happen is that the DVOD (DVR fee) will NOT be going away. The "powers" have decided that that "a free DVR" and the DVOD fee is going to be acceptable in the marketplace (I was told that DISH did a BIG study about it before they put it into effect).

Chris Freeland

08-29-03, 05:58 PM

A couple of weeks ago someone from DISH called me to discuss the DVR fee and a few other things. I made it quite clear to her that I (and many others) thought that the "PER receiver" fee wouldn't be accepted by the marketplace. She said that DISH would consider that and may change it sometime in the future.

I also heard that DISH was getting some flack from some of its dealers about the "per receiver" fee. I can't confirm that the fee is now "per account" but maybe all the flack over it caused DISH to change their mind.

One thing that I heard ISN'T going to happen is that the DVOD (DVR fee) will NOT be going away. The "powers" have decided that that "a free DVR" and the DVOD fee is going to be acceptable in the marketplace (I was told that DISH did a BIG study about it before they put it into effect).

I hope we can get this confirmed, if E* did back off of the per-unit and went to per account, this is great news and would lessen the objections of this new monthly fee. Bill or Scott, can you guys possibly confirm this with your sources?

Bob Haller

08-29-03, 06:02 PM

Well per account isnt so insane. Now match the D TIVO $99 for dual tuners and I will not be so upset

Its just possible we know the industry better than charlie.

Mike D-CO5

08-29-03, 07:31 PM

It looks like Dish got the message if they changed this to per account on the fee. If you look at all most all the press on this fee up to now it is linked to programming packages. It never says in the release per receiver.

Of course from what I gathered from talking to some people at Dish back when this all started , was that they put that out there to gage the public's reaction . If it was negative they would change it. Maybe Charlie decided to keep the fee and loose the per receiver, based on the negative reaction on all the web boards.

This fee is acceptable on a per account and it looks like Directv has reacted also. You notice you can get as an existing customer ,a directv dvr for $99.00 plus ship/handeling. This free dvr for new customers is causing real pressure on both Tivo and Directv as well as cable.

A year from now it might be Charlie had the last laugh after all. Think new subs who are now paying extra fees for " dish video on demand " and of course more dvrs on the market ( customers with dvrs don't churn as much). Dish pushing existing subs to AEP so they can escape the fees. Walstreet loves this whole concept.

This whole uproar was probably a way to push the idea of fees and with the idea of per receiver fees to make the public say well as long as it is per account it's acceptable. You know the lesser of the two evils. Of course Dish will probably say it was never per receiver anyway ya'll just misunderstood. :lol:

Bob Haller

08-30-03, 05:57 AM

Per account is a lot better. But with D $99 upgrade E now needs to match that with a very similiar product. The 510 is NOT, as its a single input device.

Give me a 522 for $99 and I will not object to the fee.

Anyone believe that will happen??

angiodan

08-30-03, 09:29 AM

boba

08-30-03, 09:37 AM

lets see if this works retailer.echostar.com/news/blast/blast_08_26_03.pdf[/url] It is the release to dealers and hopefully you will believe this rather than CSRs.

Mike D-CO5

08-30-03, 11:51 AM

Well we all know how Dish changes their collective minds. One day no fee the next day they charge a fee. I guess time will tell if they charge per account or per receiver. Of course most people will not have more than one dvr on their account at a time. People who do will most likely subscribe to AEP to escape the fees. The actual idea of a "FREE DVR" for new subs is great . At least Charlie got that idea right. :sure:

angiodan

08-30-03, 02:05 PM

Well, I have to say from boba's post that it pretty clearly states that there is a fee for EACH 510.

Seems like the CSR I talked to had her facts straight.

HTguy

08-30-03, 06:20 PM

For what it's worth, I was on the phone with a very pleasant CSR who took the time to answer these questions.

Q. Is there a cutoff date for activating the older model DVR's?

A. 501/508/721 will NEVER have a fee, irregardless of when they are activated.

Q. If I have a 510 and add another 510,522,921 etc. is their another fee?

A. Yes, it is per unit, NOT per account.

Like I said, take it for what its worth, but she spent a lot of time talking with me and putting me on hold to check with others. So bascially, everyone is getting different answers.This CSR got it exactly right. All of this is in the business rules for retailers
posted as recently as 8/28 as well as our recent "Facts Blasts."

You can expect a lot of mistaken information from some dealers who don't take the time to read them as well as from some CSRs who are confused about the new promotions.

BTW, another twist that is for real is that PVR508/1s (excuse me, DISH 508/1s) will still qualify for the current customer upgrade promotion until 1/31/04. Of course, they're probably going to be all gone by then because they will not have the new DVR fees, er...DISH Video-On-Demand Service fees.

Jacob S

08-30-03, 07:05 PM

If they were to charge the DVR fee on the 501, 508, and 721 receivers for those that do not activate them after a certain date then I would be quite concerned seeing how some may not have them activated yet after they had bought them or would not be able to sell to other consumers without them being charged the DVR fee on the receiver without notification that a fee was going to be applied. I think it would be wrong for them to all of a sudden start charging a fee on a receiver that they promised no PVR fee for.

I thought the grandfathering was going to be on the receivers, not by the account or have a requirement to have them activated by a certain date.

Chris Freeland

08-30-03, 08:44 PM

This CSR got it exactly right. All of this is in the business rules for retailers
posted as recently as 8/28 as well as our recent "Facts Blasts."

You can expect a lot of mistaken information from some dealers who don't take the time to read them as well as from some CSRs who are confused about the new promotions.

BTW, another twist that is for real is that PVR508/1s (excuse me, DISH 508/1s) will still qualify for the current customer upgrade promotion until 1/31/04. Of course, they're probably going to be all gone by then because they will not have the new DVR fees, er...DISH Video-On-Demand Service fees.

Oh well, wishful thinking I guess that E* would do the wright thing and make the DVOD fee per account instead of per unit :shrug: . At least they are keeping the 508 current customer upgrade promotion longer, now if I could get a permanent IT job Soooon!!! I could pick up one or two instead of waiting for a 522 ;).

Jacob S

08-30-03, 09:47 PM

I am wondering why Dish is offering a discount for the 501/508 and not the same discount for the 721? I hope they have a special offer on the 522 when it comes out because that would really help solve some issues some customers may have like being charged two DVR fees.

Perhaps the cost of the 522 would equal that of two special 510 deals. The benefit of the 522 would be 200 ft. UHF remote range, saves an additional outlet fee having two tuners in one, larger hard drive if you were to operate from one tv mainly but if you were to operate from two tv's then you have to share this hard drive space.

Mike D-CO5

08-31-03, 07:45 AM

I would think they would drop the price of the 721 when the 522 comes out. The 522 would do more than the 721 being able to output to two different tvs with two different channels at the same time. The 522 would become the more superior sat dvr that does more. After all the 721 has never done all that was promised. Can you say internet access. :scratchin

Jacob S

08-31-03, 06:00 PM

Was internet access really promised on the 721?

The 721 would still have a thing or two that would be superior to the 522. One thing that I can think of is the Linux programming that it has. I like the way the guide and menu is set-up, its like what the Dishplayer (7100, 7200) were when they were out unless the 522 would be getting Linux as well.

Does anyone know if the 522 will be getting Linux like the 721 has or will it be like the 501 and 508?

Mike D-CO5

08-31-03, 06:23 PM

The box I got my 721 in had a big splashy color picture adds with all the features of the 721 posted on the outside, and it clearly said internet capable on it. This was not a box form Dish network. I got my 721 from DishDepot.com. The original add on their website said the same last year in May when I got it.

The reason why they never got it going, is they wanted the internet connection to go to Dish's broadband internet connection which doesn't exist yet. When they made the box it was probably made with Starband in mind which they used to invest in. This would be a problem with people who have existing internet connections ; who wants two internet isps just so they can surf the internet on their t.v.s. Heck at one time they were suppossed to make a wireless keyboard which worked like the original dish players with Web tv.

I think the concept was created when the idea of like Web tv and Ultimate Tv was new. It just took to long to get it to the market. Now there is no more Ultimate Tv in production and who do you know who has MSN tvs(formerly Web Tv)? Kind of like the chip set they are using in the 921 which is based on the 721, which will only allow you to output either hd or sd not both, like the 811. They need to fix this now before they go to market with the 921. Heck that maybe one of the reasons it hasn't got there yet . Maybe they are going to fix that? :grin:

Jacob S

08-31-03, 06:38 PM

Couldn't Dish get sued for false advertisement then?

Unthinkable

08-31-03, 08:08 PM

Couldn't Dish get sued for false advertisement then?

I don't really see how as there was never any date given with regards to when internet access would be enabled on the 721's to my knowledge. Still plenty of time for Dish to work that feature into a future software release.

Jacob S

09-01-03, 11:01 PM

They could at least enable it even if they do not provide the access themselves couldn't they? I would think that would be better than nothing.

rtt2

09-01-03, 11:25 PM

Would they have to worry about viruses or worms on the machine if they enable it? I was thinking that the 721 is essentially a low end computer but it doesn't have a anti-virus program on it. If you have people accessing the internet the support costs might increase exponentially. I realize the Dishplayer, ultimateTV, had internet access as well but I wonder if this ever was a factor?

Jacob S

09-01-03, 11:47 PM

It would be like WebTv I would think. Has anyone ever gotten any worms or viruses on WebTv? It would not have all the capabilites that a normal pc would have, there would be some limits but it would also be safter than a normal pc would be as well. If Dish had to support the feature to get it to work, then yes, there would be a cost to them for that. They could charge an x amount to gain access to that feature like $5 a month if they were actually doing something to made it seem worthwhile. Then, perhaps you could use your own ISP to gain access. Another way for them to diversify and make a profit.

CFGuy

09-02-03, 06:05 AM

Here is a picture of a sign that Dish was displaying when Dish first started promoting that the 721 was coming.
This was one of several pictures that Metro had posted about the 721 at that time.

http://www.c-website.com/721description.gif

MikeW

09-02-03, 09:27 AM

I like the spin used in this document.
http://retailer.echostar.com/news/blast/blast_08_26_03.pdf

It says the differences between the 508 & 510 is:
1) A larger hard drive (of course)
2) The 510 features "Video on Demand Service"

What is "Video on Demand Service"?
Pause, rewind live TV. Perform instant replays w/slo-mo. Gee...doesn't my 508 do this?

Chris Freeland

09-02-03, 09:33 AM

Geronimo

09-02-03, 09:34 AM

Bill R

09-02-03, 10:33 AM

Video on Demand usually refers to content placed on your harddrive that can be viewed at any time.
The way CABLE companies define VOD is that at any given time a number of programs (varies by cable company) are AVAILABLE to "watch" using the "VOD features" (pause, rewind, etc.). The programs are on a hard drive at the cable company's facilities and the user controls the VOD functions.

DVOD (DISH Video on demand) is (right now) a service where the customer has to first record the programs and then he/she can watch the recorded programs "on demand".

DISH has been less than stright forward explaining the difference between their DVOD and CABLE'S VOD service and a lot of customers may be upset about the difference between VOD and DVOD when they get a 510. DISH should have chosen a different name and they need to clearly explain (in all their ads) how their DVOD works.

MikeW

09-02-03, 10:47 AM

Geronimo...that was not my definition of VOD, it was from the Dish release to installers which was linked in a previous post.

greylar

09-02-03, 11:24 AM

I happen to agree that Dish's definition of VOD is a little slimy. Video On Demand has always been the ability to choose from a list of shows that are currently immediately available to watch. And, while with the DVR it is technically true that there is a list of shows available to watch, it somehow doesn't seem quite the same if you have to record the shows yourself.

Remember the ultimate, (although possibly unrealistic), goal of VOD is and always has been every show ever made available to watch any time day or night.

Isn't dish really just trying to make their DVR sound like it does more that it really does?

Greylar

Chris Freeland

09-02-03, 11:37 AM

VOD, DVOD are both just marketing hype, personally I think DVOD is much better because you have control of the hard drive , and the list of shows to watch-on-demand,and not the cable company. How difficult is it to select some shows from the epg, mark them for recording and then watch at your convenience from a list that you created? :shrug:

Bob Haller

09-02-03, 12:33 PM

WHO SAID ANYONE WOULD HAVE TO RECORD THEM???? thats funny.

E will automatically record them to the hard drive when the receiver is turned off. Since a section of the HD is being reserved for such uses it will not be available for personal use.

Just like that upgrade movie everyone got on their hard drive.

Geez some folks get the strangest ideas. I feel this is true VOD and is really a good sales idea.

I think non hard drive receivers were being phased out untill the support costs became a issue.

greylar

09-02-03, 01:05 PM

Ok Bob,
How is this different than any other DVR out there? I mean Tivo has been doing this for quite some time. I guess if there were enough shows available for viewing then I wouldn't care where they come from but the very fact that it gets recorded to your receiver kind of puts a limit on how many are there at one time. How many terrabytes are these receivers coming with again?

Greylar

Bill R

09-02-03, 02:32 PM

WHO SAID ANYONE WOULD HAVE TO RECORD THEM???? thats funny.

E will automatically record them to the hard drive when the receiver is turned off.
Bob,

You better check with your "sources" again. That is NOT the way DVOD will be rolled out. The user will NEED to select programs to be recorded (and they will be recorded from the regular schedule just like the other DISH DVRs do now).

Bob Haller

09-02-03, 02:51 PM

That wasnt my understand of the plan for the merger. Apparently it changed.

But using A TIVO model they could let the box decide to download say 30 gig of PPVs for VOD with a huge hard drive its very possible

So they like comedies zap comedy PPVs get downloaded available for purchase. Would save tons of PPV bandwidth once its fully implemented and PQ could be awesome since it wouldnt waste bandwidth.

Jacob S

09-02-03, 05:08 PM

I see the "expansion port for future upgradability" in which I wonder was going to be used for the cd and dvd recordable hardware they talked about adding in the future.

Perhaps Dish wants to make it look like a VOD service where the receiver records the shows itself to have available for you on the VOD Events screen after you select the shows that you want making it seem like you have it on demand instead of making it look like a digital VCR.