PVR 721 Common Challenges

[inspect]

!pride
I have been lurking in the wings of these threads for a couple of weeks, because, I have a Dish PVR 721. (I assume they have been renamed DVR?)
I first want to say how impressed I am with many of the comments and suggestion. They have been very helpful to me.
Anyway, I am on my second unit. This unit is now showing the same signs as the first: pixels gone bad at times, incorrect timed shows, rebooting on its own, and dropping sound momentarily.
The first unit was 3 months old and the second is less than 2 months.
I have no idea what is up with these units, but, I would think Dish would be leading the way in finding a cure for them. Bad 'Press' is hard to shake.
2 questions: 1) Is JVC the main/only manufacturer of these units and 2) should I, again, exchange the unit at Sears or wait for a software upgrade to see if this corrects these issues?
BTW, I have tried all of the suggestion that I have read on this forum. Thank you.

[Bob Haller]

Ah another multi failure person. Whatever you do DEMAND a NEW replacement! A good friend thinks part of the problem is the sometimes poor quality of refurbs. As we both know some of these problems come and go. So repair might not catch the actual problem:(

Hpe that helps some.\

Sounds like your gettuing the lost tuner two problem this is exactly what mine is doing.

[Chaos]

Is there a common thread here? Do you both have JVC branded 721's rather than Dish branded?

[Jacob S]

The JVC is just a name put on the receiver. I think its made by the same manufacturer. Usually I have to go through hurdles and hoops to try to get new receiver replacement and still cannot get one except for when the 501 was replaced for the third time after trouble, but then when I did not ask for one on the 721 I got a new replacement, the first time it had to be replaced, so go figure.

I figure since these receivers will have or done had production halted there will not be much of a chance if any on getting a new replacement unless it is a 510 or 522, a different receiver, in which they may do to get the DVR/VOD fees from you to make more money.

[inspect]

I purchased the additional product protection from Sears (3 years) on the 721. This is not typical for me and was only done due to the readings of the many posts on this site/subject. Again, thanks to all who's input made that decision possible.

[Bob Haller]

Some sort of warranty is essential with PVR boxes. Does youer sears one get you a brand new receiver if it has a problem?

[inspect]

Yes. I take the 'video challenged' unit into the Sears store and they give me a new one. Bad news is the replacement also comes with the Dish and all of the components in the box.
If this happens too many times I may have to start a satellite service or create something bizarre out of the components.

[Peluso]

i think it would be helpful to have the extra physical dish sitting around. You can mount it to get access to one of the wing satellites once the new switches come out.

[Bob Haller]

Sell the extra stuff here. Noit much miney but helps others too.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Bob keep it on topic or get lost.

[Eric]

Bob keep it on topic or get lost.

Nto to intrude, but how was that post not on topic? It concerned something addressed by the original poster.

[Scott Greczkowski]

His origional post was on topic his second one was not. :)

[jerryyyyy]

After a long story I am finally getting a replacement 721 after a slow increase in pixilation until it was obvious it was on one receiver and not the other (by swaping out the input leads). I have the extended warranty. This is indeed a pain. I wonder how many of these units have been returned of the total out their and if it is an abberation- given all the electronic I own that never go south, I would say this unit is really getting a bad reputation and it is probably justified. How can anyone consider getting a 921 for $1000, if it is made by the same manufacturer?

[BobMurdoch]

I have a 721 unit that I have had since October and have not had any hardware failures (a few spontaneous reboots but that was it, nothing major. Since this thing has an operating system in it, it is MUCH more reliable than my computer which crashes 3 times a week).

I've been very happy with the 721. If I can get expect the same level of performance I've gotten, I'll be happy to fork over the $1K.

BTW, next time anyone has a failure, check the system status page and tell us the temperature. I've had a few friends have pixelization problems that may have been caused by their units cooking at 120+ degrees due to poor ventilation on shelves. I'm wondering if this has been contributing to many of your problems? (And if not, please don't flame me, it is just a suggestion to try)

[Bob Haller]

Bob keep it on topic or get lost.

Yeah whatever

:nono2:

[Bob Haller]

BTW, next time anyone has a failure, check the system status page and tell us the temperature. I've had a few friends have pixelization problems that may have been caused by their units cooking at 120+ degrees due to poor ventilation on shelves. I'm wondering if this has been contributing to many of your problems? (And if not, please don't flame me, it is just a suggestion to try)

Mine for unknown reasons is running hotter about 120 in comparison with 109 usually since its problem showed up.

I wonder if its possibly a power supply issue where excess heat somehow causes or is caused by tuner failure?

In any case mine is exposed to open air, has nothing on top of it and spacers underneath the feet to raise it for better cooling.

[jcase]

Bob its your attitude which gets you in trouble, you know Chris likes you so you play that card while the rest of the staff cant stand you half of the time.

If you only knew how many of the DBSTalk staff was in agreement with me you would be thinking twice about your actions.

Its a shame Chris values YOU more then his staff here which runs the place.

Everyone should be in disgust.

[jcase]

PS 120 is TOO HOT for a 721, I believe I was told anything about 117 was bad, do something to cool that puppy off!

[Unreg]

Geez Scott, No wonder Chris put you on vacation!

[Bob Haller]

Before it failed 110 was hot. Like I said does a bad tuner overheat the power supply or does a bad power supply fry the tuner?

In any case its siting on a open shelf with NO obstructions at all around it

[Peluso]

Heat kills electronics... Does the 721 have internal heat disapaters? Maybe a fan went out.

[Peluso]

(a few spontaneous reboots but that was it, nothing major. Since this thing has an operating system in it, it is MUCH more reliable than my computer which crashes 3 times a week).

Nothing major??!!??? The 721 is a consumer electronics component. From the mainstream consumer standpoint it should never fail. When was the last time your watch had to reboot? How about your TV's internal tuner? Maybe your stereo had to shut off at some point and reboot? The point is that consumer electronics should never ever have these kinds of problems.

Ok, that's the expectation but now we have to deal with reality.. the reality of this situation is that these boxes are really just a dedicated computer. But that's still not an excuse either.. Most servers are sold with the concept of zero downtime. When you consider the fact that the unit runs on one of the worlds most stable OS's, you have to wonder why there is such problems with it. Something is definitely wrong with the product. I'm not educated but I would love to know the actual failure rates for the Dish PVR's vs. other consumer PVR's and put them up against average failure rates for the most popular server computers on the market. That would give us a good idea of where the product really is and where it really needs to be.

[Jacob S]

Someone posted on here not that long ago that Dish said anything under 140 was fine.

[BobMurdoch]

Nothing major??!!??? The 721 is a consumer electronics component. From the mainstream consumer standpoint it should never fail. When was the last time your watch had to reboot? How about your TV's internal tuner? Maybe your stereo had to shut off at some point and reboot? The point is that consumer electronics should never ever have these kinds of problems.

Ok, that's the expectation but now we have to deal with reality.. the reality of this situation is that these boxes are really just a dedicated computer. But that's still not an excuse either.. Most servers are sold with the concept of zero downtime. When you consider the fact that the unit runs on one of the worlds most stable OS's, you have to wonder why there is such problems with it. Something is definitely wrong with the product. I'm not educated but I would love to know the actual failure rates for the Dish PVR's vs. other consumer PVR's and put them up against average failure rates for the most popular server computers on the market. That would give us a good idea of where the product really is and where it really needs to be.

As to my so called "reliable" other equipment.....

1. My Sony RPTV developed the pulsing brightness fluctuation due to a leak in the CRTs that only manifests itself 5 months into its life. Sony sent a technician to replace the guns and that issue was fixed under warranty.

2. The Sony also has a bug where every now and then the digital overlays (menus, display info,etc.) simply won't come up. If you unplug the set and reboot the TV it works fine.

3. My XBox locks up occasionally during games and has to be reboot.

4. Other times my XBox has trouble reading a disc and then tells me to clean the disk which is pristine when I check it. (There probably is some dust on the lens or something and I have been procrastinating taking it to a service center to clean as don't want to void the warranty by pulling it apart -- side note: anyone have this problem and fix it themselves?)

5. My Pioneer DVD player locks up on some disks but not on others (all regular DVDs - no DVD-R's or CD-R's being used in it.) The disks then work fine in the DVD player in my bedroom.

6. My Integra Receiver has the Dolby Digital cut in and out on some programming (used to be E* although I haven't noticed it there recently), but also some DVDs like Pearl Harbor and Jurassic Park (Integra blames the encoders, but they seem to be the only ones with the issue)

So my point is that Sony, Integra, and Pioneer have their problems as well. Microsoft...., er well we EXPECT glitches out of them more than we do out of E*, but that's a rant for another day.

[Bob Haller]

Well my TVs have zero problems although posting this will cause at least one to die. That old 1990 set is very reliable. The newer ones have some flakiness but nothing major.

Are new designs running on the ragged edge and have more troubles?

[inspect]

The first and second unit run approximately 110 - 112 degrees. Heat was my first concern but I ruled that out at those temps. If the units are too hot it is, in my case, the unit doing it to itself. Our house never sees a temperature above 78 and that is on the high end. Neither of my two computers run as hot as the 721 and it is not boxed in a plastic case with all kinds of gear demanding energy. So, if its too hot it's because it is built that way by the manufacturer. I don't know what to believe regarding cheap hardware or bad software. Maybe both are to blame?!
I am in agreement with jerr4y's. JVC or whomever cannot continue sending out junk if most of it comes back. They as a business can't afford it nor will they allow the software company to get away with bad programing. Either way they lose so something will be done to correct this issue. (Mr. Murdoch,
Thank you for the heads up on the systems not to buy without the extended warranties.) :)

[inspect]

I've read that others see a problem with one of the two feeds at times. So, I ran the 721 in the PIP mode. During the entire time I did not see evidence of distortion of any kind. Both were clear and trouble free. I will try this again another time.
Btw, the temp in the house was a cool 73 and the unit was running at 116. I don't get it. You would think the temp would have been much lower given the room temp and a vent blows practically onto the unit. Its got to be the machines hardware. I don't think software would or even could tell it to run hotter!? :confused:

[Bob Haller]

On temperature its a different design with that solid top. The old dishplayer and standard receivrs had perforated tops. The open design must of had better cooling ability. Our living room is about 73 and the 721 tonight 116 kinda hot.

[Neil Derryberry]

Looks like a good candidate for a case mod... except for the possibility of having to return the unit. We need to come up with some clip-on fans to attach to the outside of the case, maybe powered by the HDD molex connector that can be removed easily if the unit needs to be sent back.

Maybe I'll get brave and try it.. can't be that hard to do.

[Bob Haller]

Well the solid top is a advantage if something gets spilled on the box. That occured to me :( a few years ago. I tripped carrying a glass of water. A little bit got in the box and smoke and flame was the result. It was over very fast. E covered it under warranty. That was my last 4000 they sent me a upgraded 4700 to 4900 as a replacement.

This was THE ONLY user induced failure I ever had!

No doubt stuff like this is why it has a solid top. Accoidents can happen, worse if you have kids:(:(

A buddy of mines kids filled their VCR tape slot with peanut butter
:(

It cleaned up fine. I was really surprised but it was a expensive VCR.

[inspect]

I, for one, will not try hacking into, onto or around a sensitive unit. The hard-drive might not be the only thing that gets overheated if a voltage carrying part is 'hot' (similar to a power supply). :nono:
As I see it, these units are so prone to problems, Sears is paying me to leave it alone for a least the next 4 years (3 years of additional warranty over JVC's 1).
Not only that, I paid good money to have it right the first time. When I went into Sears, I did not say to myself, "Now there is a right smart looking machine. I can't wait to get that home, spend all that time installing it, watch it for a couple of months and then, YEE-HAW, remove all the wires, return or exchange it, take it home, reconnect all the wires, call Dish to reset for this next one and then wait for it all to happen again. Personally, I'd have more fun pulling a splinter out of my finger.

[Bob Haller]

Is the 721 case top the same as earlier receivers? How about trying a top swap from a junk box? Metro has a D tivo with upgraded hard drives. he leaves the lid off for better airflow. A real shock hazard and not recommended.

[Neil Derryberry]

If I seem to be a little reckless with my thoughts.. I'm not. I'e been a network engineer for 9 years now, and computers don't scare me. Rememebr that the 721 is nothing more than a specialized computer... many of the components inside the box are standard components found in mainstream computers today.

The modification I'm talking about is nothing more than sticking a fan to the outside of the case, routing 2 little wires to the inside, and using indusrty-standard connectors to grab power from the hdd power connector.

next time I can pry the remote away from my wife's hands, I'll pull my 721 out of the cabinet and see if there are any security seals in my way that might tell the tale if I open the case. To my knowledge, there are no pictures of the inside of the 721. I'll take some pictures when I get the opportunity.

[Pete38]

HI all,

For what it's worth:

I've been running a JVC branded 721 since last December. It sits in an enclosed cabinet & the heat (via system info) tops out at about 114. This is in an un-airconditioned room when the outside temp has hit the 90s repeatedly this summer. I've had next to no problems with this unit. I just need to reboot it once or twice a month. I should mention that I keep it on a huge network server sized UPS because the power (both quality & availability) is so bad up here in Vermont.

I had a 501 that died and had to be replaced after about 9 months. This was before I got the UPS. So far the 721 just seems to keep working.

Pete

[Peluso]

I've had next to no problems with this unit. I just need to reboot it once or twice a month.

I would think that having to reboot a consumer electronics product once or twice a month is a HUGE problem.

[Pete38]

I would think that having to reboot a consumer electronics product once or twice a month is a HUGE problem.

Peluso,

I don't know about huge, but it is silly and should be unnecessary. Read the threads here -- some folks say they have to reboot their 721 daily. To me, THAT is a huge problem.

It's also something I never needed to do with my 501, which was also a lot faster than my 721. I've read here that the 501 is running Windows OS, while the 721 runs Linux. Is this true? The Linux geeks I know would state that that should make the 721 much faster and more stable. Any Linux geeks out there care to comment? :rolleyes:

Pete

[Bill R]

Peluso,The Linux geeks I know would state that that should make the 721 much faster and more stable. Any Linux geeks out there care to comment?
Pete
I never worked on Linux systems but I did work on UNIX (the OS that Linux was derived from) for a few years. The OS itsself is likely very stable but you have to remember that what users are seeing on the 721 are APPLICATION programs (to display the guide, to schedule the timers, to decode the video, etc.) running under the OS. Stability depends on how well the applications are written and, as every programmer will tell you, sometimes that is not an easy task (and remember that 721 programmers have to deal with the limitations, and/or idiosyncrasies of the hardware). Usually, with an OS like Linux, appliactions are written under some version of the "C" programming language (like "C++"). I don't know if this is true for the 721.

My whole take on the problems on the 721 is that DISH has NOT devoted the proper resourses to the software development team that they really need to. Anyone (like Scott) who has any insight to the way things are done at DISH knows what I am talking about.

[Pete38]

I never worked on Linux systems but I did work on UNIX (the OS that Linux was derived from) for a few years. The OS itsself is likely very stable but you have to remember that what users are seeing on the 721 are APPLICATION programs (to display the guide, to schedule the timers, to decode the video, etc.) running under the OS. Stability depends on how well the applications are written and, as every programmer will tell you, sometimes that is not an easy task (and remember that 721 programmers have to deal with the limitations, and/or idiosyncrasies of the hardware). Usually, with an OS like Linux, appliactions are written under some version of the "C" programming language (like "C++"). I don't know if this is true for the 721.

My whole take on the problems on the 721 is that DISH has NOT devoted the proper resourses to the software development team that they really need to. Anyone (like Scott) who has any insight to the way things are done at DISH knows what I am talking about.

Bill,

I agree with what you say - E* needs to spend the development resources to produce a complete and robust product. For the 6 years I've been with them they always seem to fall short as if their goal is "just good enough" and they never quite make that.

I was being a bit coy in my last question. I used to write OS code for IBM and have been through many hardware & software development cycles. I'm guessing that E*'s cycles are, shall we say, a bit more informal?

I'm still curious about my experience with the 501 and the 721. While the OSs are clearly different, is it logical that the same development team (or at least the same management team) produced the two products? Why would one (and the older one at that) seem much better than the other?

Also, since the 721 software update and the release of the 921 are both delayed, I wonder if the delay is related. Since (as I've read on this forum) they are both based on the same hardware platform, perhaps they are syncing up the software so they don't have to do dual maintenance. If so, they won't release the 721 code until the 921 has been pronounced "golden". It's sure starting to look like those two events will coincide. It wouldn't be difficult to "turn off" features on the 721 version for hardware that only exists on the 921, or for features they only want to support on the 921.

Thoughts?

Pete

[jimcx]

The USB port should have enough power for a small fan...

[Peluso]

As to my so called "reliable" other equipment.....

You my friend, have had some piss poor CE equipment. I rarely if ever have problems with my CE products. Heck, my Xbox is has prefromed perfectly.

[BobMurdoch]

I'm actually pretty good about trying to minimize problems (my equipment is in an IKEA cabinet which I drilled two doorknob sized holes on each side of the top of the cabinet as well as each shelf (one hole for interconnects and one for power cables). They act as chimneys to vent off heat. I also space any of the large components (My main A/V Receiver, my secondary receiver which pumps audio outside into my backyard, and the 721) at least 6 inches below the next higher shelf.

The XBox is a common problem I hear through the grapevine with the difficulty reading some discs (I hear it needs to be cleaned, I have one of the very first XBOXes as I got it on opening day back in 11/2001). The Sony issue was my first ever major problem (the guns that needed to be replaced) (with the flaky overlays happening only three times). The Integra is a minor issue as it has only happened on a few DVDs, but it was really annoying when Stargate SG-1 would flake out all the time when it was in DD5.1 on Showtime (I don't know if this was Showtimes fault or E*'s, but Dead Like Me and a few other shows don't have the problem anymore.) I have all the equipment on two power strips on a dedicated circuit, but eventually I would like to get a power conditioner, but they may wait until I build my dedicated Home Theater in a few years (My avatar is my Dream Theater by the way.... I don't have it yet, but that picture shows EXACTLY what I want minus the chairs and carpet that I want slightly different).

My main point was that I've set reasonable expectations on any equipment with an operating system as they all flake out occasionally (granted, those without a hard drive are more stable, but I just wanted to point out that they were not lily white in the problem department either). After living with Two Dishplayers since 2000, the 721 has been blissfully well behaved in comparison.

[Bob Haller]

I wonder if Mike Dugan monitors these discussions anymore. As head of E tech he had a reputation for a no nonsense kinda guy. I think they need more resources for DVR devlopment and a mike type to make it happen

[Peluso]

but they may wait until I build my dedicated Home Theater in a few years (My avatar is my Dream Theater by the way.... I don't have it yet, but that picture shows EXACTLY what I want minus the chairs and carpet that I want slightly different).

I have a dream home theater idea as well. My wife has never said no, but once i start talking to her about actually buying the equipment that i'd need for it, i know the battle will become serious. In all reality i'm not going to worry too much about it until i get into another house with a basement, or i build my dream house.

I have gone through the process of designing the dream house, but i'm not sure i'll ever have the funds, so i'll probably be happy with a dedicated Home theater in a basement.

Still back on topic... it seems failure rates are high with products that are mechanical and exceptionally high with the introduction of computer parts into CE equipment.

IIRC, my dishplayer had an 8 gig drive. We are on the verge of putting 8gigs into a space the size of a compact flash card. That makes me think that a solid state PVR is only a few years away and if the chips can come down enough in price, it will massively lower the prices and allow for PVR functionality in almost every video related product. Still that just takes care of the hardware part of the equation. Software still has to become absolutely rock solid.

I see the situation as analogous to when 32bit OS's came on the scene. If you remember the big advantage of OS/2 and Win NT vs. Win95 was that if an application died it didn't take the whole system down. I think that sort of goal has to be achieved with PVR technology. If one show screws up, or one area of the HDD gets screwed, the other shows on the drive should have some sort of protected mode. This way you don't loose everything.

No matter what PVR technology is still very young and it's going to be fun to see where it all winds up.

[Unthinkable]

The XBox is a common problem I hear through the grapevine with the difficulty reading some discs (I hear it needs to be cleaned, I have one of the very first XBOXes as I got it on opening day back in 11/2001).

I've experienced that same problem with my own X-Box as well. Morrowind brand new right out of the box gave me the most issues with disc read errors of all the games I've ever played thus far. I purchased a good quality laser lens cleaner and it still failed to eliminate some of the issues I noticed with random games like Morrowind. My unit was also purchased right when it was first released, but I'm under the impression the real problem was a bad cd pressing issue or just poor software coding in that particular game as I recall many people posting all over the place similar problems getting the dirty disc error.

[Bob Haller]

I understand bubble memory is coming that should do away wuth the moving parts.

[sifuhall]

Verry sorry for the stupid newbie question, but my System Info screen on my 721 does not have the temperature, is this info located somewhere else?

[greylar]

Verry sorry for the stupid newbie question, but my System Info screen on my 721 does not have the temperature, is this info located somewhere else?

The temp was removed in the last update.

G

[sifuhall]

Doh!

My 721 is enclosed in an entertainment center, but I have no way of knowing how hot it gets behind the glass door.

How big a threat is this?

[BobMurdoch]

Make sure you pay for the extended warranty on ANY e* PVRs and there will be a zero threat to your wallet.

Supposedly certain people have been having trouble when their receivers ran hotter than 120 degrees (early 721 receivers had louder fans which kept the machines at about 105-110 degrees -- newer receivers have quieter fans but run 114-120 degrees - at least that is what it was before the last update killed the temperature reading .)

Definitely try to keep airflow maximized if you can (I recommend at least 6 inches below the next shelf up for enclosed centers). Also try to avoid keeping them behind closed doors unless you have a LOT of ventilation out the back. If it is in an enclosed space you may want to think about wiring some small fans or drilling some good door knob sized holes to create a chimney for excess heat to ventilate away from the receiver.

Excess heat and circuit boards/chips never seem to get along. Why risk all your recordings and equipment?

[jerryyyyy]

Believe what is said above, these machine disintegrate.

[Bob Haller]

Could they be designed to better tolerate customers doing things like this?

[BobMurdoch]

Nope, stuffing your PC into an unvented closed in space would probably fry THAT too.

These things will always generate a lot of heat. Either buy the insurance, or take measures to minimize the chances for heat related failures.

My XBox gets really hot (it has a hard drive too). Every PVR I've had has run hot, and just about every A/V receiver runs hot (if it has decent power output). This isn't just an E* concern (we ran an extra air conditioning vent into our server closet at work (a small business) because it was 10 degrees warmer in there than the surrounding area, just from the ambient heat form the equipment.