View Full Version : DISH Network Reports Second Quarter 2010 Financial Results
James Long
08-09-10, 04:17 AM
ENGLEWOOD, Colo., Aug 09, 2010 /PRNewswire via COMTEX News Network/ -- DISH Network Corporation (Nasdaq: DISH) today reported total revenue of $3.17 billion for the quarter ended June 30, 2010, a 9.1 percent increase compared with $2.90 billion for the corresponding period in 2009.
Net income attributable to common shareholders totaled $257 million for the quarter ended June 30, 2010, compared with $63 million during the corresponding period in 2009. Basic earnings per share were $0.57 for the quarter ended June 30, 2010, compared with basic earnings per share of $0.14 during the corresponding period in 2009.
DISH Network lost approximately 19,000 net subscribers during the quarter ended June 30, 2010, ending the quarter with approximately 14.318 million subscribers.
Detailed financial data and other information are available in DISH Network's Form 10-Q for the quarterly period ended June 30, 2010, filed today with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Form 10-Q (http://dish.client.shareholder.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-10-182388)
James Long
08-09-10, 04:57 AM
Gross subscriber additions for the quarter was 747k ... up 16k over the same quarter last year.
That quarter DISH only gained 26k net subscribers.
RasputinAXP
08-09-10, 05:55 AM
losing 19K subs can be a benefit when they're poison subs, huh?
Just for comparison, DirecTV US had gross additional subs of 946,000 and a net add of 100,000 for the 2nd quarter.
A good financial quarter, but not a great quarter for subscribers. Q3 may be bloody on the subscriber count if they don't pull some CATV subscribers.
Make sure you read the section in the SEC report about lawsuits.
DodgerKing
08-09-10, 09:35 AM
A good financial quarter, but not a great quarter for subscribers. Q3 may be bloody on the subscriber count if they don't pull some CATV subscribers.
Make sure you read the section in the SEC report about lawsuits.
You are amazing. Your true bias shines as bright as the sun. Your post on the DirecTV Q2 report as a negative spin on a positive quarter. Now you somehow find a way to put a positive spin on Dish's negative quarter.
Let's face it. They both could have done better, but DirecTV did have a better quarter than Dish. Try to spin that.
lparsons21
08-09-10, 10:16 AM
The loss of net subs may be because of the 2 rate increases. 1st for equipment and 2nd in programming in just a few months. And of course, includes the outrageous fee increases for equipment charges.
Add in that they now charge to return equipment, and are not waiving many of the charges they used to, and you get some disgruntled subscribers.
I've noticed on the 'other site' that some long time subscribers have cancelled and moved to other providers over these issues. Hopefully this will wake up the bean counters or their bosses about these very big overall increases in cost to the subscriber.
I've noticed on the 'other site' that some long time subscribers have cancelled and moved to other providers over these issues.
Even the owner of the 'other site' has said:
"I went from AEP down to just AT250 because of the new fees. My wife even asked me if we should look at DIRECTV again... ".
He said when he called Dish to see what could be done to help reduce his bill due to the STB lease/mirroring fee change (he has a lot of hardwar) that was the CSR's response, reduce your programming package.
lparsons21
08-09-10, 11:07 AM
Yes, he certainly did say that.
Couple these rate increases with the reports of similar calls others made and you have the formula for even higher net subscriber losses next quarter. Frankly that may be the wakeup call that Dish needs, since from the report's conference call they are pretty much blaming it on 'poor economy' but other providers are not seeing this issue.
And for our D* loving friends, hope that the next quarter losses are worse for E* or you can most likely expect some of the increases to filter through too.
Now you somehow find a way to put a positive spin on Dish's negative quarter.How do the phrases "not great" and "bloody" constitute positive spin?
Both providers had relatively lousy US numbers. The difference being that DIRECTV tosses in their LA numbers that were relatively stellar.
James Long
08-09-10, 11:36 AM
Just for comparison, DirecTV US had gross additional subs of 946,000 and a net add of 100,000 for the 2nd quarter.
In other words ... DISH lost 766k subscribers and DirecTV lost 846k subscribers in 2Q 2010.
DirecTV lost 22k more subscribers 2Q 2010 vs 2Q 2009. DISH lost 61k LESS subscribers 2Q 2010 vs 2Q 2009.
Where DirecTV did better is in replacing lost subscribers with new ones ... changing a gross loss into a net gain. DISH's biggest promotion of "Free HD for Life" didn't start until the last month of the quarter. But BOTH providers lost a lot of customers 2Q 2010.
DISH paid an average of $743 for each subscriber added ... DirecTV paid $783. DISH collected an average of $73.05 from each subscriber, DirecTV collected an average of $87.90.
sigma1914
08-09-10, 11:37 AM
How do the phrases "not great" and "bloody" constitute positive spin?
Both providers had relatively lousy US numbers. The difference being that DIRECTV tosses in their LA numbers that were relatively stellar.
Hmm... Which is lousy? -19,000 or +100,00?
:rolleyes:
DISH Network lost approximately 19,000 net subscribers.
DIRECTV U.S. had 100,000 net additions.
In other words ... DISH lost 766k subscribers and DirecTV lost 846k subscribers in 2Q 2010. DirecTV lost 22k more subscribers 2Q 2010 vs 2Q 2009. DISH lost 61k LESS subscribers 2Q 2010 vs 2Q 2009.
Where DirecTV did better is in replacing lost subscribers with new ones ... changing a gross loss into a net gain. DISH's biggest promotion of "Free HD for Life" didn't start until the last month of the quarter. But BOTH providers lost a lot of customers 2Q 2010.
DISH paid an average of $743 for each subscriber added ... DirecTV paid $783. DISH collected an average of $73.05 from each subscriber, DirecTV collected an average of $87.90.
So do we want to go back for a couple years worth of quarters saying which provide gained or lost more subs? I though this thread was about the 2nd quarter results and not historical trending.
And while Dish did have a lower acquistion cost then DirecTV it takes DirecTV less then three months to make up that difference based on the ARPU.
And even before the free HD for life promotion Dish had done some very heavy promotion on how you can get the same TV for less but even with that it appears that it's not making a difference, even in tough financial conditions.
James Long
08-09-10, 11:52 AM
So do we want to go back for a couple years worth of quarters saying which provide gained or lost more subs? I though this thread was about the 2nd quarter results and not historical trending.As a reader of the 2nd Quarter results, it should be obvious that the companies themselves compare results with one year ago. What you call "historical trending" is part of the results being reported.
And even before the free HD for life promotion Dish had done some very heavy promotion on how you can get the same TV for less but even with that it appears that it's not making a difference, even in tough financial conditions.I believe the promotion was the same as it is now ... $15 off for the first year on all packages. The "Free HD for Life" sweetened the deal on June 3rd.
747k subscribers signed up during the quarter. 16k more than last year. DISH must have done something right.
James Long
08-09-10, 12:16 PM
DISH Network lost approximately 19,000 net subscribers.
DIRECTV U.S. had 100,000 net additions.In one quarter.
One company grew by 455k net customers over the past year ... an increase of 2.5%.
The other company grew by 708k net customers over the past year ... an increase of 5.2%.
Hint: The companies are noted alphabetically. :)
It was a rough quarter ... financially and on the "subscriber count". I don't like seeing negative "net" subscriber numbers. Fortunately the good
quarters this past year were better than the bad. DISH Network will survive.
Satelliteracer
08-09-10, 12:32 PM
So do we want to go back for a couple years worth of quarters saying which provide gained or lost more subs? I though this thread was about the 2nd quarter results and not historical trending.
And while Dish did have a lower acquistion cost then DirecTV it takes DirecTV less then three months to make up that difference based on the ARPU.
And even before the free HD for life promotion Dish had done some very heavy promotion on how you can get the same TV for less but even with that it appears that it's not making a difference, even in tough financial conditions.
Keep in mind, SAC costs for DISH I believe are usually lower because they have their DUO room solution. One box for two rooms. DIRECTV has to fulfill 2 boxes for all those installations, so the costs are higher initially. DIRECTV also has more higher end customers that take HD, DVR, etc, and those costs of equipment are part of the SAC calculation.
James Long
08-09-10, 12:45 PM
DIRECTV also has more higher end customers that take HD, DVR, etc, and those costs of equipment are part of the SAC calculation.Those customers are part of the ARPU ... when their sign up discounts expire they will be spending more for being higher end.
I believe those ARPU (average revenue per subscriber) figures are a good reminder that most people are not high end. $83 is roughly Choice Ultimate with HD and one DVR - no premiums (movies and sports packages). DISH's $73 is roughly AT250 with one DVR and no premiums. If that is the "average" subscriber there must be a lot of "Choice" and "AT100" subscribers balancing out the high end customers.
radiomandc
08-09-10, 01:38 PM
Have a look at what Wall Street thinks about this report.
http://www.multichannel.com/article/455836-Dish_Stock_Plunges.php
James Long
08-09-10, 01:50 PM
Have a look at what Wall Street thinks about this report.
http://www.multichannel.com/article/455836-Dish_Stock_Plunges.phpEmphasis added:
Despite the subscriber declines, Dish reported strong financial results - revenue was up 9.1% to $3.17 billion and net income quadrupled to $257 million (57 cents per share) from $61 million (14 cents per share) a year ago.
Check back in a month and see where the prices go. Today is for the impulse sellers and bargain hunters.
BAHitman
08-09-10, 02:11 PM
So they had a net subscriber loss of ~.13%. don't think that's such a big deal...
Satelliteracer
08-09-10, 02:16 PM
Those customers are part of the ARPU ... when their sign up discounts expire they will be spending more for being higher end.
I believe those ARPU (average revenue per subscriber) figures are a good reminder that most people are not high end. $83 is roughly Choice Ultimate with HD and one DVR - no premiums (movies and sports packages). DISH's $73 is roughly AT250 with one DVR and no premiums. If that is the "average" subscriber there must be a lot of "Choice" and "AT100" subscribers balancing out the high end customers.
Well, yes, they are part of the ARPU equation, but what I was trying to note was that SAC includes costs of hardware, installation, discounts, marketing \ advertising, etc, etc. The hardware costs are a bit different for the two companies as one person was showing that SAC was lower for DISH. I believe, could be wrong, that this is partly due to the DUO solution that DISH has where they need to essentially deploy less hardware on many installations.
If that is incorrect, my apologies.
So they had a net subscriber loss of ~.13%. don't think that's such a big deal...
It is if they were expecting a substantial gain and planned their butgets accordingly. :rolleyes:
James Long
08-09-10, 02:57 PM
Well, yes, they are part of the ARPU equation, but what I was trying to note was that SAC includes costs of hardware, installation, discounts, marketing \ advertising, etc, etc. The hardware costs are a bit different for the two companies as one person was showing that SAC was lower for DISH. I believe, could be wrong, that this is partly due to the DUO solution that DISH has where they need to essentially deploy less hardware on many installations.For a large account DISH would send out less hardware than DirecTV ... basically three receivers max with an additional $34 monthly charge on the account if a customer had three DUO DVRs (the first receiver is included). DISH does not provide more than three receivers leased ... customers must buy their own additional receivers (if desired). With $34 in receiver fees plus the $7 DVR fee one would already be past half way to the average account revenue. DirecTV would charge $25 for the five extra receivers needed to be a six TV home.
I'd say based on the ARPU that most subscribers don't have three DUOs.
Less hardware is a toss up ... DISH requires more installation for home run cables to the receivers then relay cables to the 2nd room for each receiver. DirecTV has their SWM. A different topography. It would depend on the install which would be cheaper.
DodgerKing
08-09-10, 03:18 PM
How do the phrases "not great" and "bloody" constitute positive spin?
Both providers had relatively lousy US numbers. The difference being that DIRECTV tosses in their LA numbers that were relatively stellar.
No, the difference is even DirecTVs US market still had a net gain, lower churn rate, and better profits.
DodgerKing
08-09-10, 03:20 PM
In one quarter.
One company grew by 455k net customers over the past year ... an increase of 2.5%.
The other company grew by 708k net customers over the past year ... an increase of 5.2%.
Hint: The companies are noted alphabetically. :)
It was a rough quarter ... financially and on the "subscriber count". I don't like seeing negative "net" subscriber numbers. Fortunately the good
quarters this past year were better than the bad. DISH Network will survive.Unfortunately, Q3 WILL be even worse. I, and many others, are predicting Q3 to have an even higher net loss of subs. In fact, I thought this quarter will still have a net gain and Q3 be the first with a net loss.
DodgerKing
08-09-10, 03:28 PM
In other words ... DISH lost 766k subscribers and DirecTV lost 846k subscribers in 2Q 2010.
DirecTV lost 22k more subscribers 2Q 2010 vs 2Q 2009. DISH lost 61k LESS subscribers 2Q 2010 vs 2Q 2009.
Where DirecTV did better is in replacing lost subscribers with new ones ... changing a gross loss into a net gain. DISH's biggest promotion of "Free HD for Life" didn't start until the last month of the quarter. But BOTH providers lost a lot of customers 2Q 2010.
DISH paid an average of $743 for each subscriber added ... DirecTV paid $783. DISH collected an average of $73.05 from each subscriber, DirecTV collected an average of $87.90.
Of course they will lose more, they have about 5 million more subs to begin with. Total number lost in churn is not as good of a measure of percentage/rate of sub loss. If you look at the rate, Direct had about a 1% lower churn rate than Dish.
Satman858
08-09-10, 04:02 PM
All that profit having a 9.1 percent increase, and they still stick it to their subbers with a rate increase. :mad:
James Long
08-09-10, 04:27 PM
Of course they will lose more, they have about 5 million more subs to begin with. Total number lost in churn is not as good of a measure of percentage/rate of sub loss. If you look at the rate, Direct had about a 1% lower churn rate than Dish.
So you have nothing to say to DISH growing at a rate twice that of DirecTV over the past year (5.2% net increase vs 2.5% net increase) other than your own personal prediction that this quarter will be worse? :rolleyes:
It is a shame that we have to wait three more months for 3Q results. Everyone has their favorite numbers. The death of DISH has been predicted for longer than I've been a customer. History shows those predictions to be shortsighted.
phrelin
08-09-10, 04:34 PM
This is a quarterly financial statement. I'm not quite sure why analysts get their undies in a bunch absent some financial catastrophe. First, one has to keep in mind that Dish Network was spun out of the old Echostar effective January 2008 which I thought was a dumb idea at the time. I'm acutely aware of this set of numbers which represent a vast improvement in liquidity IMHO:
http://www.phrelin.com/Dish/102nd-01.jpg
Then I rearrange the P&L numbers to make sense out of them like this:
http://www.phrelin.com/Dish/102nd-02.jpg
This range of quarters includes the quarter ending in June 2007 which was before The Great Recession, compared with the three subsequent quarters ending in June. Dish seems to have weathered The Great Recession satisfactorily.
Yes, in the quarter ended March 2008, they had 13,815,000 customers, but that was when folks just started to feel the pain. The fact that as of June 2010 they have 3.6% more customers and a stable P&L to me seems fine for a retails service operation operating in the depths of The Great Recession.
I'm wouldn't run out and buy shares of Dish simply based on this financial statement. But if I were Charlie, I'd be satisfied. And since everyone likes to have a hobby and Charlie's seems to be lawsuits, the litigation lists in the past three June quarterlies seems to indicate he has been able to keep himself busy.:D
http://www.phrelin.com/Dish/102ndlit.jpg
Anyway, unless you are about to make an investment and the choice is between Dish and Direct, there isn't any reason to compare to the two quarterlies. Both businesses appear to be doing fine.
DodgerKing
08-09-10, 04:36 PM
So you have nothing to say to DISH growing at a rate twice that of DirecTV over the past year (5.2% net increase vs 2.5% net increase) other than your own personal prediction that this quarter will be worse? :rolleyes:
It is a shame that we have to wait three more months for 3Q results. Everyone has their favorite numbers. The death of DISH has been predicted for longer than I've been a customer. History shows those predictions to be shortsighted.
How can you get all of that out of a point that was simply about a more accurate way to measure churn? You sound like my wife. I will say one sentence and somehow she thinks I meant five different things. I was not saying anything bad in this post
As far as growing, I never said anything good or bad. Yes, rate or percentage is also the best way to measure growth as well. Keep in mind, when there are fewer total subs, this means each sub is a greater percentage of a whole. The same total number of subs added to Dish and Direct will translate into a greater percentage for Dish. Yes, it is a good thing, Dish added a lot of subs over the last year.
I, in no way, am predicting the death for Dish. I am simply predicting next Quarter will be worse. We will come back in three months to see if I am correct. I'll even make you a bet. If I am wrong, I will make a donation to this site. If I am correct, you will donate to a year membership for me. Agreed?
Gene Steinberg
08-09-10, 06:15 PM
I probably would have been a DirecTV customer, but they lost me because they sent a pair of morons to do the installation.
On the other hand, Dish is on thin ice with me. Their tech support is utterly clueless, and were of no help when I ran not difficulty recently trying to take advantage of a 99 cent On-Demand/PPV order and failing to complete the selection.
I won't get into details here, but let me say that few companies have been as incompetent. If I could be assured a second DirecTV install attempt might succeed, I'd jump ship — that is if they plan to add the HD version of BBC America in our lifetimes. :)
Peace,
Gene
Stewart Vernon
08-09-10, 06:47 PM
I don't like percentages only, as a measure of growth, without proper context.
Dish has a little over 14 million subscribers. DirecTV has more than 20 million, but I don't know what that number is.
IF each company gains 500,000 customers in a quarter, that represents a smaller percentage change for DirecTV than it does for Dish... so if both companies grow by the same quantity, Dish's percentage will be higher.
Similarly, if both lose 500,000 customers... that will represent a higher percentage of Dish customers than it does for DirecTV. In fact, DirecTV would have to lose almost twice the amount of customers as Dish to be at the same percentage loss.
So percentage alone doesn't tell me anything.
I'm reminded of the time a friend of mine was working a job and at evaluation time he got a 5% raise. When he said that wasn't much money, his boss said that he had only gotten a 2% raise so he should be happy with more than twice the raise!
Of course his boss already made well more than twice what he was making... so that 2% raise was more money in the pocket than my friend's 5% raise.
DodgerKing
08-09-10, 08:05 PM
Same token, you cannot rely on raw numbers alone. 500,000 for Dish will have a much greater affect on Dish than 500,000 for Direct
James Long
08-09-10, 08:31 PM
Keep in mind, when there are fewer total subs, this means each sub is a greater percentage of a whole.OK ... stick with raw data ... over the past year DISH has added 253k net customers MORE than DirecTV. The percentages just bring the numbers into focus. DirecTV as the bigger company is EXPECTED to do better, are they not? They didn't.
I'll even make you a bet.DBSTalk is not a gambling website.
James Long
08-09-10, 08:35 PM
Dish has a little over 14 million subscribers. DirecTV has more than 20 million, but I don't know what that number is.DISH 14.318 million, DirecTV 18.760 million US customers June 30th. You're giving DirecTV too much credit. :)
So percentage alone doesn't tell me anything.Both raw net increase and percentages were provided in my posts where percentages were used.
DodgerKing
08-09-10, 08:40 PM
OK ... stick with raw data ... over the past year DISH has added 253k net customers MORE than DirecTV. The percentages just bring the numbers into focus. DirecTV as the bigger company is EXPECTED to do better, are they not? They didn't.
Never disagreed with that. Again, my point was simply one on the best way to look at numbers, percentage being BETTER in this case. Of course, you must ALSO look at raw numbers as well.
I do like how you left off the rest of that paragraph were I stated, "As far as growing, I never said anything good or bad," and, "Yes, it is a good thing, Dish added a lot of subs over the last year." You seem to be going out of your way to make it appear that I am saying something else all together.
DBSTalk is not a gambling website.Gambling? I was talking about paying money in the form of a membership for me to this site. The money goes to this site, from me if I am wrong and from you if I am correct.
DodgerKing
08-09-10, 08:43 PM
DISH 14.318 million, DirecTV 18.760 million US customers June 30th. You're giving DirecTV too much credit. :)
Both raw net increase and percentages were provided in my posts where percentages were used.
You really love to play the spin game. He did not say US subs, he stated total subs. Direct does have more than 20 million subs. Credit is given were it is due. :)
James Long
08-09-10, 08:43 PM
I do like how you left off the rest of that paragraph were I stated, "As far as growing, I never said anything good or bad," and, "Yes, it is a good thing, Dish added a lot of subs over the last year." You seem to be going out of your way to make it appear that I am saying something else all together.I've read your prior posts and will let the jury decide what you "never" said earlier in the day.
Personally I'd rather discuss the topic of THIS thread, DISH's quarterly report.
Oh my, you are all making this really complicated.
One thing to keep in mind is that maybe two years ago, DirecTV surged ahead in HD content, and then they both were even, and now DISH is a little ahead, but not by enough for most consumers to discern.
Also keep in mind that DISH doesn't effectively compete in DMA 1, most of DMA 30, DMA 52, 57, 80, 83, 94, 157, 170, 176, and 177, which, combined, is almost 9.5% of the US market.
On the flip side, DISH has a near monopoly over many smaller, rural DMA's where they have LIL's and DirecTV doesn't, or they have HD LIL's and DirecTV doesn't, and where there isn't HFC, FTTH, or FTTN to compete with.
The real golden age for satellite is really over, however. While both companies, given good technology and management should be able to compete well into the future, their days of continuous net growth are over. Cable has insane triple-play, with many more areas getting a full complement of HD channels, as well as U-Verse offering triple play, and still being a cable competitor. And of course, Fios, albeit having a limited reach, is the one service that is just clearly better than satellite or anything else out there.
Satellite is suffering in part because of anti-competitive actions by cable companies, namely the "de-bundling" fee that Comcast and others charge on their HSI. DSL is slow, and doesn't reach nearly as far as cable, so the weakness of Satellite's ability to do triple play is really weakening their ability to compete on cost.
Cable has the technical ability with Docsis 3 and SDV to completely obliterate Satellite's advantage, but it doesn't look like most cable companies will actively do that anytime soon.
That being said, cable companies are often still slow to upgrade and expensive, so if satellite innovates with new features and programming, it will be able to compete in non-Fios areas for years to come.
On installation, DISH has Eastern Arc, which is definitely helping in areas like New England that have a gazillion trees, and have great LOS for EA, but pretty much no LOS for DirecTV's 110 and 119 satellites (depending on DMA).
The 2-tuner boxes aren't any different for installation, they just cut down on the number of boxes needed. DirecTV puts a splitter at the home-run point for SWiM, while DISH would feed DP up the line to the box, and de-diplex the backfed TV2. The real difference is DISH may need multiple lines from the Dish, whereas DirecTV just needs one. DISH gets a lot more complicated for the consumer, since DISH only carries some locals in HD, requiring the use of an antenna on a separate cable or to give up the backfeed if they want all their locals in HD. Also, some homes may have improperly wired cable, where the satellite installer has to run new wires.
EDIT: It's also not a surprise that the ARPU's are where they are. An average of AT250 makes sense... a lot of people don't need more than AT120, which is the equivalent of cable's expanded basic, but with a 500GB DVR and HD.
For a large account DISH would send out less hardware than DirecTV ... basically three receivers max with an additional $34 monthly charge on the account if a customer had three DUO DVRs (the first receiver is included). DISH does not provide more than three receivers leased ... customers must buy their own additional receivers (if desired). With $34 in receiver fees plus the $7 DVR fee one would already be past half way to the average account revenue. DirecTV would charge $25 for the five extra receivers needed to be a six TV home.
I'd say based on the ARPU that most subscribers don't have three DUOs.
Less hardware is a toss up ... DISH requires more installation for home run cables to the receivers then relay cables to the 2nd room for each receiver. DirecTV has their SWM. A different topography. It would depend on the install which would be cheaper.
What would be the cost difference for DirecTV when the installer installs refurbs in a new install?.It would seem to me that would lower the costs even cheaper.
James Long
08-10-10, 12:43 PM
What would be the cost difference for DirecTV when the installer installs refurbs in a new install?.It would seem to me that would lower the costs even cheaper.DISH installs refurbished equipment as well.
Stewart Vernon
08-10-10, 12:46 PM
DISH 14.318 million, DirecTV 18.760 million US customers June 30th. You're giving DirecTV too much credit. :)
I think in my mind I was remembering DirecTV's larger number including markets that Dish isn't even competing...
But that raises a point.
To compare Dish vs DirecTV you almost have to make 2 comparisons... One for their overall total numbers including ALL markets and subscribers...
And another comparison just including the two companies where they overlap.
The 1st comparison would show how overall both companies are doing relative to each other... while the 2nd comparison would show how they stack up against each other in the markets in which they are both actively vying for customers.
Both raw net increase and percentages were provided in my posts where percentages were used.
Agreed... I was just replying to what I thought was someone saying that percentages were "better" than raw data. I can't agree with that sentiment. Raw data alone is MUCH more meaningful than percentages alone... but both are really needed to get a clearer picture.
Stewart Vernon
08-10-10, 12:50 PM
What would be the cost difference for DirecTV when the installer installs refurbs in a new install?.It would seem to me that would lower the costs even cheaper.
Not sure (and James already noted that Dish does the same)...
Because some costs are "fixed"... such as the cost of delivering the hardware to the location, paying for the work to be done on the actual install, etc. So while re-installing a refurb receiver means a lower cost on that actual receiver... I'm not sure what the cost of that is or how either company approaches it.
One way for businesses is to amortize the cost of something over several years... in which case, the "cost" of the refurb receiver might be the same as new for a period of 2 years (as an example) if they amortize all the development/manufacturing cost of a particular receiver.
So maybe a receiver that stays in the field for several years before coming back for a refurb does become a cheaper implementation on its refurb... but I don't know how common that is across all subscribers.
DISH installs refurbished equipment as well.
Not for me they haven't,and anytime in the future if they want an upfront upgrade fee from me it better not be a refurb.:nono2:
Stewart Vernon
08-10-10, 09:21 PM
Not for me they haven't,and anytime in the future if they want an upfront upgrade fee from me it better not be a refurb.:nono2:
How do you know?
I've gotten both new and refurb... typically you get a brand new remote and cables with a refurb receiver... so if they do a good job cleaning it up, I'm not sure how you'd know the difference UNLESS you knew where to look for the indication of how they code the refurb units.
phrelin
08-10-10, 11:31 PM
When I read this thread on the quarterly, I keep wondering. Is there some sort of Stanley Cup equivalent trophy for the TV signal provider that has the most customers?:confused:
I get kind of confused since both satellite companies seem to be doing ok in The Great Recession, a fact I think is great.
But back to the trophy. I have no idea how many customers Dish Mexico has. Would they count? Currently Telmex has an arrangement with them like the old AT&T-Dish Network contract. (I haven't seen posts from Aransay since 12-16-09.) Echostar reported quarterly sales of set-top boxes and related accessories of $21.3 million to Dish Mexico.
All I know is that Dish Network is making money and has improved its liquidity in two years. (Echostar, on the other hand, took a loss this quarter after depreciation and amortization despite increased sales to Dish Mexico.)
How do you know?
I've gotten both new and refurb... typically you get a brand new remote and cables with a refurb receiver... so if they do a good job cleaning it up, I'm not sure how you'd know the difference UNLESS you knew where to look for the indication of how they code the refurb units.
Yes that's true.With DirecTV they have an R normally in the end of the model number.
With my 625 I'm using(I just looked) it says remanufactured at the bottom of the sticker in back.When the installer took it out of the box it sure looked like a new one to me.:o
The problem with refurbs for me is when I had DirecTV I got several receivers that looked like someone had breakfast on top of them,then shipped them back and D* shipped them out that way!.:nono2:
In other words ... DISH lost 766k subscribers and DirecTV lost 846k subscribers in 2Q 2010 [...]Probably better to compare those #'s as a % of total subs, which would be more "apples to apples".
In that case, DirecTV lost 4.5% of their US customers (or 3.3% world-wide) and Dish lost 5.4% of their customers, 20% more than D* (or 60% more, if Dish's #'s include Mexico).
DirecTV's US churn was 1.51% and Dish's churn was 1.78%.
tsmacro
08-11-10, 10:12 AM
When I read this thread on the quarterly, I keep wondering. Is there some sort of Stanley Cup equivalent trophy for the TV signal provider that has the most customers?:confused:
Yes I think there is a trophy and it's not only the # of customers that determine victory but also taken into consideration is how well the loyal fanboys of each brand spin anything and everything to do with said companies! :lol: Honestly people does every thread that has any news about either company have to turn into "my satellite company is better than your satellite company"? Or even better "see this proves how bad the other company is".
No, the difference is even DirecTVs US market still had a net gain, lower churn rate, and better profits.As James points out, Wall Street is more interested in trends as opposed to snapshots. DIRECTV gains were at recent low. DISH Network's "gains" were not.
DIRECTV spends millions more than just about everyone to attract new customers and yet they lose a fraction of their customer base equal to or greater than anyone else. You can only "purge bad customers" for so long before there aren't many bad customers left.
lparsons21
08-11-10, 11:05 AM
As James points out, Wall Street is more interested in trends as opposed to snapshots. DIRECTV gains were at recent low. DISH Network's "gains" were not.
DIRECTV spends millions more than just about everyone to attract new customers and yet they lose a fraction of their customer base equal to or greater than anyone else. You can only "purge bad customers" for so long before there aren't many bad customers left.
Maybe I'm reading the tea leaves wrong, but it does appear that Dish is doing some purging also these days.
With the recent dramatic uptick in equipment fees, you start losing your high end customers with lots of equipment that I would think would have higher end subscriptions also.
Now with the impending demise of the Absolute HD, they may be paring those at the other end of the customer base.
That leaves that large middle. The ones with just a little equipment and modest subscriptions. Frankly they are the ones that are in the best shape with Dish. Is this the right move? I don't know, but I wouldn't think you want to shed the high end customer, or can the middle of the road produce better profits with less effort/product?
phrelin
08-11-10, 11:21 AM
Good grief. From the AP via Yahoo this morning there is an article with the headline A look at cable, satellite TV earnings reports (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/A-look-at-cable-satellite-TV-apf-2768614480.html?x=0&.v=1) that does not include a single dollar figure in it, all focused on subscriber numbers. Am I the only one that remembers that if your company is losing 3¢ on each widget sold, it won't help to sell more widgets?
The Motley Fool this week has published two pieces on Dish that recommend the stock: Insiders Are Buying Dish Network. Should You? (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2010/08/10/insiders-are-buying-dish-network-should-you.aspx) and Is DISH Network's Management Up to the Task? (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2010/08/11/is-dish-networks-management-up-to-the-task.aspx) Not that I'm going to run out and buy shares, but....
James Long
08-11-10, 01:39 PM
if Dish's #'s include Mexico
"DISH Mexico" is a joint venture between a Mexican company, Dish Mexico, S. de R.L. de C.V. and EchoStar Corporation. It is not part of DISH Network Corporation. The subscriber counts DISH Network provides in their SEC filings is for subscribers to their US service.
Good grief. From the AP via Yahoo this morning there is an article with the headline A look at cable, satellite TV earnings reports (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/A-look-at-cable-satellite-TV-apf-2768614480.html?x=0&.v=1) that does not include a single dollar figure in it, all focused on subscriber numbers. Am I the only one that remembers that if your company is losing 3¢ on each widget sold, it won't help to sell more widgets?
The Motley Fool this week has published two pieces on Dish that recommend the stock: Insiders Are Buying Dish Network. Should You? (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2010/08/10/insiders-are-buying-dish-network-should-you.aspx) and Is DISH Network's Management Up to the Task? (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2010/08/11/is-dish-networks-management-up-to-the-task.aspx) Not that I'm going to run out and buy shares, but....
Hah, that's quite true. I'm not sure what the article there is trying to say, but if DISH and DirecTV can transition from growth mode to creating a stable, sustainable business, then they could both do quite well. Not constantly trying to grab new customers could really help on the acquisition costs, especially with HD-DVR's being the norm now.
With the recent dramatic uptick in equipment fees, you start losing your high end customers with lots of equipment that I would think would have higher end subscriptions also.This is where rationalizing goes wrong. A sudden drop in "high end" customers would be signaled by a corresponding drop in ARPU and that is contraindicated by the 3.3% increase in ARPU versus last year.
phrelin
08-11-10, 11:32 PM
"DISH Mexico" is a joint venture between a Mexican company, Dish Mexico, S. de R.L. de C.V. and EchoStar Corporation. It is not part of DISH Network Corporation. The subscriber counts DISH Network provides in their SEC filings is for subscribers to their US service.Ah yes, but if its for the Stanley Cup of satellite/cable subscriber numbers, maybe we could have Mexican players.:D
Maybe I'm reading the tea leaves wrong, but it does appear that Dish is doing some purging also these days.
With the recent dramatic uptick in equipment fees, you start losing your high end customers with lots of equipment that I would think would have higher end subscriptions also.
Now with the impending demise of the Absolute HD, they may be paring those at the other end of the customer base.
That leaves that large middle. The ones with just a little equipment and modest subscriptions. Frankly they are the ones that are in the best shape with Dish. Is this the right move? I don't know, but I wouldn't think you want to shed the high end customer, or can the middle of the road produce better profits with less effort/product?
Maybe Dish network is getting tired of the complaints generated by the Dish Nazis(audit team) so you increase the price of the receiver fees and that will make alot of the ones with alot of Duos hooked up change to the single tuner models or leave,just a guess.:confused:
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