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Chris Blount
09-12-03, 07:27 AM
This was posted in the newsgroups by Alan Dana (alan_dana@hotmail.com). Thanks for a very informative report!!!
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I attended the CEDIA Expo in Indianapolis this past weekend and spoke to two
Echostar reps at length. One was an engineer, the other a high-level
administrator in product development and pricing. Here are my notes from
the conversations:

Tentative pricing on the new 811 and 921 HD receivers is $299 and $999
respectively. However, Dish dealers at this conference were lobbying hard
to have Echostar raise the prices to $399 and $1199 and thus give them some
margin for either profit or being able to offer discounts. The product guy
told me that they were going to go back and reconsider the pricing based on
this feedback.

The 921 is being subjected to far more rigid testing than was the 721.
Echostar admitted that they rushed the shipment date on the 721 and did not
complete a full testing cycle. They are guaranteeing that the 921 will ship
with far fewer problems than the 721 did.

The 921 has a "Dish Link" port, that is really a 1394 port, which will be
enabled to copy programs to D-VHS units. It also has a USB port, which will
not be supported for any functionality when first shipped. It is there for
potential future use. It has an internal expansion slot that could be used
to add an Ethernet port, for possible connection to broadband services. But
no guarantee that an Ethernet port card will ever be delivered. It will
support recording onto the hard disk from the OTA antenna input, but only HD
programs, not Standard Definition or cable input.

The 921 will not support recording from it's A/V inputs, those are offered
for pass-through connections, such as camcorders or video games.

Current hopes are that the 921 will ship in November. BTW, the other
Dish-compatible HD receiver that was in development by JVC has encountered
even more problems in getting to market than the 921 and they were not sure
when it might ever be shipped.

All future Dish receivers will have integrated Smartcards, but for the
present time they will retain external Smartcard slots, for repair and
diagnostic purposes.

Dish is definitely going to ship their funky 40" HD RPTV in an HD package.
No plans at this time to offer other TV sets.

Echostar IX testing is going very well.

Use of 61.5 for HD is expected to be shut down within a year.

The Superdish will ship in October. Expect to see more locals up soon after
that.

I spoke at length with the product guy about the implementation of PVR fees.
I relayed that there was significant resistance in the on-line forums and he
said that Dish was aware of this because they have people monitoring the
forums. I told them that not only was there large scale resistance and
dissatisfaction, but that some of Dish's most loyal, level-headed defenders
on the forums were now either switching or contemplating switching to
DirecTV. He was concerned by this, but said that they knew there would be a
lot of dissatisfaction. But that this was something that had to be done at
some point because the cost of providing PVR support was climbing. He was
confident that over the long-term that Dish's PVR fees would be less than
what people will pay for DirecTV PVR.

He said that no firm decision has been made, but that there was a
possibility that no fees would ever be levied at the DP, 501, or 508
customers.

Alan

newsub
09-12-03, 08:19 AM
"He said that no firm decision has been made, but that there was a
possibility that no fees would ever be levied at the DP, 501, or 508
customers."



Ok he said there is a possibility that no fees would ever be levied on the 501 and 508. I was promised by charlie on last months charlie chat that there wouldn't ever be a fee on the 508 i just bought. One second they promise you the world for free the next they say "oh you may have to pay $10/month for the world." That was the reason I am selling my tivo and switched to dish dvr was because there was no fee and now they're contemplating adding a fee????
Well I've only been a customer for 2 months and already am considering biting the $200 early cancellation fee and switching to directv.

xgrep
09-12-03, 10:50 AM
This was posted in the newsgroups by Alan Dana (alan_dana@hotmail.com). Thanks for a very informative report!Thanks, Chris for posting this. Excellent info!

One point struck me as odd, and I have a strong suspicion that it's possibly a bit inaccurate:

It will support recording onto the hard disk from the OTA antenna input, but only HD programs, not Standard Definition or cable input.I can't think of any reason for such a restriction, whether technical or copyright-based. What I believe is more likely is that the 921 will only be able to record digital content from the OTA tuner, not analog, but that it could record HD or SD.

The reason I say this is that (1) the 921 will obviously be able to record SD content from the satellite tuner, and (2) it will logically only be able to store an already-encoded MPEG-2 data stream on the disk, as it certainly won't have an on-board MPEG-2 encoder.

Given these almost certain realities, as I say, there is no reason to restrict recording of OTA material to HD only. As long as it's an MPEG-2 stream, which SD is, too, there's no real problem. In fact, given that it will presumably record satellite-sourced SD streams, it would actually take an extra (though admittedly tiny) design feature to prevent it from recording OTA SD content.

Does anyone have additional insight on this point? I would be somewhat disappointed if the 921 couldn't record OTA SD content.

One thing that has not been mentioned anywhere is whether the 921's timer capability would make use of the program guide information potentially available from OTA broadcasts. Currently, there's not a lot out there, many stations not bothering to send much data aside from their call sign and virtual channel (and some don't even bother to send that). But one can hope that the "PSIP" data will be more usefully populated in the future, and that the 921 would use it to enable easy setting of timers for OTA.

By the way, regarding newsub's concern that 508 owners might be charged a DVR fee, if it is indeed true that Charlie explicitly said that this would never happen for *any* 501/508/721 owners, now or in the future, then I could imagine a legal liability, here. But I have a strong impression that he left this point open when making the comment on the Chat. I might be wrong, but I believe he said "all current 508 owners" would never have a DVR fee. That, to me, allows "future 508 owners" to be charged a fee. It doesn't guarantee that "all 508 owners, now and in the future" would never be charged. Any other factual info on this?

x

newsub
09-12-03, 12:07 PM
By the way, regarding newsub's concern that 508 owners might be charged a DVR fee, if it is indeed true that Charlie explicitly said that this would never happen for *any* 501/508/721 owners, now or in the future, then I could imagine a legal liability, here. But I have a strong impression that he left this point open when making the comment on the Chat. I might be wrong, but I believe he said "all current 508 owners" would never have a DVR fee. That, to me, allows "future 508 owners" to be charged a fee. It doesn't guarantee that "all 508 owners, now and in the future" would never be charged. Any other factual info on this?

x

That's what I was wondering. Will charlie charge us current 508 owners a pvr fee and go against his word or just new subs? As far as the 921 is concerned if it is going to stand a chance out there it SHOULD have the ability to store analog on the hard drive as well. That is one thing that upsets me about the 508 is it can't record from the cable signal I get. Like if I want to record a football game on abc or cbs or not available on satellite (no locals on satellite) I still have to program my vcr. Btw I did have a tivo which i cancelled and am currently auctioning off on ebay.

EvanS
09-12-03, 01:04 PM
Thanks, Chris for posting this. Excellent info!

One point struck me as odd, and I have a strong suspicion that it's possibly a bit inaccurate:

I can't think of any reason for such a restriction, whether technical or copyright-based. What I believe is more likely is that the 921 will only be able to record digital content from the OTA tuner, not analog, but that it could record HD or SD.

The reason I say this is that (1) the 921 will obviously be able to record SD content from the satellite tuner, and (2) it will logically only be able to store an already-encoded MPEG-2 data stream on the disk, as it certainly won't have an on-board MPEG-2 encoder.

Given these almost certain realities, as I say, there is no reason to restrict recording of OTA material to HD only. As long as it's an MPEG-2 stream, which SD is, too, there's no real problem. In fact, given that it will presumably record satellite-sourced SD streams, it would actually take an extra (though admittedly tiny) design feature to prevent it from recording OTA SD content.

Does anyone have additional insight on this point? I would be somewhat disappointed if the 921 couldn't record OTA SD content.

x

my guess is that the term "HD" was erroniously used in place of ATSC while the term "SD" was likewise improperly used instead of saying NTSC

xgrep
09-12-03, 03:29 PM
As far as the 921 is concerned if it is going to stand a chance out there it SHOULD have the ability to store analog on the hard drive as well.In order for it to be able to record from analog sources (OTA, cable, or A/V inputs), it would need an MPEG-2 encoder like the standalone Tivo models. Among the currently popular chips is the Broadcom BCM7040, and adding this to the 921 would've increased the complexity and cost of the thing to probably unacceptable levels. On the other hand, there may very well be a Tivo HD product in the future that will have this, possibly a DirecTivo. I haven't followed the rumors on this.

x

newsub
09-12-03, 03:52 PM
In order for it to be able to record from analog sources (OTA, cable, or A/V inputs), it would need an MPEG-2 encoder like the standalone Tivo models. Among the currently popular chips is the Broadcom BCM7040, and adding this to the 921 would've increased the complexity and cost of the thing to probably unacceptable levels. On the other hand, there may very well be a Tivo HD product in the future that will have this, possibly a DirecTivo. I haven't followed the rumors on this.

x
I'm selling my tivo because of the fee and no local access number to download programming,etc from. I don't want to go back to tivo again.

Jacob S
09-14-03, 03:48 PM
I am wondering if what was meant was no future DVR fees on any DVR receiver for those that currently have a 501 or 508 or no future DVR fees just on the 501 or 508 receivers?

xgrep
09-14-03, 06:26 PM
I am wondering if what was meant was no future DVR fees on any DVR receiver for those that currently have a 501 or 508 or no future DVR fees just on the 501 or 508 receivers?I can't imagine that it could mean the former. It's been pretty clearly stated that if you get a 510 or any future DVR, you will pay a "DVoD" fee. I can't see that it would matter if you were a current 501/508 owner or not.

Likewise, it's not clear that future owners of 501/508/721 would be exempt from a fee. As far as I can tell (and this is really no more reliable than any other speculation on this topic), if you are a current 501/508/721 owner, you will not (presumably ever) have a DVR fee. That is all that we've been led to understand.

x