More info about 921, 6000, 211, 811, etc.

[Mark Lamutt]

Matt Stevens posted this over at AVSForums today.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2663257#post2663257

I'm working on getting some of this confirmed from my sources, but for those of you that don't visit AVSForums regularly, I wanted to call attention to it.

[EvanS]

oh man...this is certainly discouraging, if acurate.
In all of the E* flames lately concerning DVR fees, product and HD programming delays, maybe no 8VSB with the new 6000 deal, etc, I have held my tongue and waited patiently for E* to truly come thru with the 921. I honestly felt that the delays, up to this point, would prove to be worthwhile in allowing the 921 to come out the door running. Besides I personally would not have been springing for a 921 before about this time next year, so I was not affected personally.
But I can see how this would look to many long-time subscribers as the final nail in the coffin as well as a confidence breaker. And to any new subs that may frequent these boards...well let's just say that if I had been this active in the DBS boards THEN as I am NOW, I may never have gone with sat service at all, let alone E*.

Personally I have only been on sat and E* since the 501 introduction and now also have a 721. Both have been trouble free for me and, although I KNOW now that they are not Tivo-ish in certain features, do what I want to my satisfaction. But moving forward from here, even though I really DO dig the service, is starting to sound like a real roll-of-the-dice for your hard earned (and substantial) monetary investment.

Oh well...I'll remain an E* supporter (quietly cheering and hoping) and probably get the 6000 deal, but after that there is gonna be alooooooooong wait and see period for me before I dump anymore money into E*. :nono2:

[EvanS]

Matt Stevens posted this over at AVSForums today.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2663257#post2663257

I'm working on getting some of this confirmed from my sources, but for those of you that don't visit AVSForums regularly, I wanted to call attention to it.

oh yeah, almost forgot in my dismay...THANKS FOR POSTING THIS MARK!!!! :) :) :) :)

[Ken_F]

I think those that are worried should hold off until the 921 is out, about, and reviewed before making a decision.

We really have no idea what E* executive Matt talked to. For all we know, he is just an E* executive that has had occasional glimpses of the product, but may not actually have that much experience with the latest software. Or he may be beta tester, and E* may have an update in the works that will resolve many of the major issues prior to the November ~1 launch.

[HTguy]

By the way, a useless statistic: There are currently 2,400 active DISH 5000 users. That's kind of surprising, isn't it? I would have thought that there were still 1000's of people using what was once the flagship receiver (not even counting the relatively few with the HD RF Module.)

It still has a lot of usefull features:
UHF Remote
OTA TV Tuner with "Local Link" (locals in EPG on local ch#)
AUX input (Ch "0" in EPG)
Extra A/V output jacks
Event timers inc. VCR record
High-speed data port for DD or HD adaptor
I still have one in a closet I keep meaning to put on eBay.

[n0qcu]

Quote:
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By the way, a useless statistic: There are currently 2,400 active DISH 5000 users.
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Hey I have 4 of them.

[Mike Richardson]

That $1400 manufacturing cost price for the 921. sounds like rubbish. That's just too damn high.

[Jerry G]

We really have no idea what E* executive Matt talked to. For all we know, he is just an E* executive that has had occasional glimpses of the product, but may not actually have that much experience with the latest software. Or he may be beta tester, and E* may have an update in the works that will resolve many of the major issues prior to the November ~1 launch.

I completely agree. I intend to get the 921 as soon as it's released. I've read the reports of continuing problems with other STBs, but I'm willing to believe that if the 921 is as "buggy" as the unverified information would lead one to believe, it won't be released.

[DTV]

I completely agree. I intend to get the 921 as soon as it's released. I've read the reports of continuing problems with other STBs, but I'm willing to believe that if the 921 is as "buggy" as the unverified information would lead one to believe, it won't be released.

Yeah because E* has never released a buggy receiver in the past.

[Matt Stevens]

We really have no idea what E* executive Matt talked to. For all we know, he is just an E* executive that has had occasional glimpses of the product, but may not actually have that much experience with the latest software. Or he may be beta tester, and E* may have an update in the works that will resolve many of the major issues prior to the November ~1 launch.
Guys, Matt Stevens here. This was no low level employee, clueless executive or bets tester. I am sure you understand that I cannot say his name or position, since that would get him in some serious ****e. But understand, this guy has hands on knowledge, is very high up, is involved with the development of the products in question and knows what he is talking about. Don Landis from AVS has stated all he has learned from his sources inside E* confirm what I have listed.

And despite the bad news, some of this news is good. They will get the Firewire turned on once it's set. There will be NO 5C or other copy protection protocol in the near future (and maybe even beyond). That is very very good news, folks. I'm going to be patient and wait this out.

And that price point is not BS. It makes sense, since E* is doing it themselves. The one thing I and the guy I talked with agreed on 100% is that E* would be better off licensing this stuff out. Costs would come down.

The PVR921 will not be a big seller. Fewer units of a high end box that is state of the art (for E*) with a 250 gig drive, firewire and DVI cannot be cheap.

[Jerry G]

Guys, Matt Stevens here. This was no low level employee, clueless executive or bets tester. I am sure you understand that I cannot say his name or position, since that would get him in some serious ****e. But understand, this guy has hands on knowledge, is very high up, is involved with the development of the products in question and knows what he is talking about. Don Landis from AVS has stated all he has learned from his sources inside E* confirm what I have listed.



Here's the thing Matt. The person you talked to had to know the information he gave you would get posted and would hurt Dish. I've already seen posts from people who have cancelled their 921 order and others who are now thinking about not getting it.

I know previous Dish receivers have had problems upon release. But the indication from what this person told you is that there are very serious problems with the 921. Frequent crashes would be a reasonable assumption. Even with Dish's past history of not so perfect software, could Dish release a product that is know to crash frequently resulting in angry calls to Dish and return of product? If the problems were this severe, especially taking into account the flak that Dish has previously received for releasing problematic software, I find it hard to believe that Charlie would release a product that is this bad.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it will be released in a minimally functional capacity. Needless to say, it will be a very sad day for Dish if this occurs. I guess, we'll just have to wait and see.

[fslove]

I completely agree. I intend to get the 921 as soon as it's released. I've read the reports of continuing problems with other STBs, but I'm willing to believe that if the 921 is as "buggy" as the unverified information would lead one to believe, it won't be released.My, My! You are very naive when it comes to Dish Network. Dish has released numerous receivers (Dishplayer, 4900, 3900, 501. 508 to name some) that were extremely buggy! It would take a year or more before they would finally work out most of the bugs.

If you don't mind being a beta tester for Dish for a whopping $999 then be my guest. As for me I will NOT put out $999 for a product unless I know it is bug free.

[Mike Richardson]

And that price point is not BS. It makes sense, since E* is doing it themselves. The one thing I and the guy I talked with agreed on 100% is that E* would be better off licensing this stuff out. Costs would come down.

But from what is this $1400 coming from? If you added up the wholesale price of all the junk that they're putting into it would it be $1400?

[kstevens]

But from what is this $1400 coming from? If you added up the wholesale price of all the junk that they're putting into it would it be $1400?

I don't think you can only count the cost of parts. There are manufacturing costs, design cost (I doubt E* engineers work for free, though sometimes it might seem so:-). I doubt they will be manufacturing humongous quantities of these, so the cost to manufacture will be high. Once they produce and sell a sufficient quantity, the design and manufacture cost should start to factor out.


Ken

[John Kotches]

Mike Richardson asks:

But from what is this $1400 coming from? If you added up the wholesale price of all the junk that they're putting into it would it be $1400?

Do you consider development time to be free? Raw parts is only a small part of the cost to manufacture a software driven solution like this one.

It's been in development for what, 2 years? That's a very big bill that must be amortized across the sales of 921.

Regards,

[Matt Stevens]

Here's the thing Matt. The person you talked to had to know the information he gave you would get posted and would hurt Dish. I've already seen posts from people who have canceled their 921 order and others who are now thinking about not getting it.
On the contrary, he thought it was good news. The Firewire will be enabled once the bugs are ironed out. No 5C. The receiver will be unstable at first, but so were past receivers that are now solid. My 6000 never gives me trouble. Never.

He was very proud of the product and was looking forward to it being released. VERY FEW will be sold to customers this year. We are talking about 1 per dealer here. Next year the receiver will be released in greater numbers.

Personally, I cannot wait to own one.

Meanwhile the 811 is fine. Still buggy here and there, but nothing all that terrible. They are going to sell as many 811's as they can before X-mas.

Relax everybody. I was ready to say goodbye to E* but my talk with this guy really settled me down. It's all going to be Ok in the end.

I will have more for you in October, before the Charlie Chat.

[nicktesla]

(It was confirmed that the 6000 receiver cannot downconvert HD and therefore will always output full 1080i or 720p via component and RGB. Period. That is set in stone. One more reason to hold onto it. The analog RGB is perfect for non-DVI equipped projectors.)

Matt what exactly does this mean, that the 6000 cannot downconvert HD? What is the advantage of this? I thought about buying two 811's should I get one 6000 and one 811 for the reasons you mentioned? I do have a non-dvi hd projector, and a non-dvi hd tv in the other room.

[John Kotches]

Nick,

It means that a 6000 will always be able to output an HD signal @ 1080i or 720p regardless of what is implemented for broadcast flags.

With 811 and 921 it is theoretically possible to force the component output to downres to 480p from either of the HD resolutions listed above depending on the broadcast flag values.

Regards,

[nicktesla]

Thanks for the quick response. It sounds like that this issue would be important if you were trying to record in hd. Correct? The only recording I plan to do is to my dvd recorder, which I think is 480p.
Thanks again

[kstevens]

Thanks for the quick response. It sounds like that this issue would be important if you were trying to record in hd. Correct? The only recording I plan to do is to my dvd recorder, which I think is 480p.
Thanks again


No, it is possible that since a component connection can not be copy protected that a protected source (such as a HBO movie) could force your output from the component connection to downres. It doesn't care if you are viewing or recording the program.


Ken

[Matt Stevens]

Ken is correct on all fronts.

[rudolpht]

Any idea when we can start to order the Superdish? Direct or through local installers? Thought the insiders may know.