Question Regarding HD Quality From A Newbie

[pdxtom]

Hey all

I just registered for the forum and did a basic search through the threads and didn't find the info I was looking for so I was hoping that some of you may be willing to help me out;

I've been with DirecTV for several years and am considering switching to DishNetwork.
Dish has several HD channels that I think I would like that DirecTV does not have plus with all of the special offers I qualify for as a new subscriber my bill would go down quite a bit for a couple of years.

I currently have HD programming and plan to continue having HD if I make the switch.

Here's my question;
Will I see any difference in the picture quality of the HD channels on Dish as compared to what I'm used to with DirecTV?

I have a 55" Samsung 1080p set and watch a lot of stuff on HDNet.

Thanks in advance for any food for thought you can give me before I make the switch.

[Stewart Vernon]

Hi, and welcome...

I don't have DirecTV, so I can't make any comparisons for you...

But I do have a 61" Samsung HDTV, and there is a lot of high quality HD on Dish as far as I'm concerned.

HDNet happens to be one of the consistently (both them and HDNet Movies actually) high quality channels actually.

[mdavej]

I recently switched from D*. Seeing so many posts about HD-lite, I expected a huge difference. But I can't tell any difference between the two on my 60" 1080p Sony. As a sanity check I did a lot of comparison OTA versus Sat and could barely see any difference there either. I'm sure if you ask current D* subs who've never actually seen Dish, you'll get a completely different answer. Another pleasant surprise was the significantly better SD quality and superior sound quality of the music channels. I couldn't bear to watch SD on D*, but it's actually watchable on Dish. I haven't regretted the switch one bit and wish I'd done it much sooner.

EDIT: Sorry, I just noticed you're on the west coast. It's my understanding the west coast SD PQ isn't as good as east coast, so it may not be any better than D* for you.

[pdxtom]

This is good to hear.

I was a little concerned that I was going to make the switch and see some huge reduction in PQ since I too have seen so much about Dish providing "HD Lite".

Any other input you guys have will be appreciated. I'm getting real cose to making the call so that I can have BBCAmerica in HD as well as a few others.

I just didn't want to give up the nice HD PQ that I'be gotten used to and since I have no way to compare (everyone I know has DirecTV) I was hoping to find help here.

[phrelin]

This is good to hear.

I was a little concerned that I was going to make the switch and see some huge reduction in PQ since I too have seen so much about Dish providing "HD Lite".

Any other input you guys have will be appreciated. I'm getting real cose to making the call so that I can have BBCAmerica in HD as well as a few others.

I just didn't want to give up the nice HD PQ that I'be gotten used to and since I have no way to compare (everyone I know has DirecTV) I was hoping to find help here.Since you are a BBCA fan, I feel I should mention that KOPB PBS is not available in HD Portland, though unlike in my area it shows uplinked but not available on James Long's chart (http://jameslong.name/markets/f96.html). Of course, it is available OTA if you can get reception and can be recorded on any ViP DVR.

[altidude]

Sorry, I just noticed you're on the west coast. It's my understanding the west coast SD PQ isn't as good as east coast, so it may not be any better than D* for you.

I'm on the West Coast and I found the SD quality is better on Dish compared to D*. Actually, much better IMO. Even my wife noticed the difference and she doesn't usually care about those things.

[paja]

I've had all the services. D,E,Comcast are all the same in m y area(suburban Chicago) when it comes to hd pq .They are all better than U-verse, which is the worst for hd pq, but does have excellent sd pq. OTA, if you can get it(I do) is by far the best.

[CoolGui]

...Will I see any difference in the picture quality of the HD channels on Dish as compared to what I'm used to with DirecTV?

I actually just switched from Dish to DirecTV today. I think DirecTV picture quality is marginally better. Around these forums they say that DirecTV provides more bandwidth per HD channel. I can't confirm that, but from what see I do believe it, ever so slightly. Most of the national channels look very close, but I see a bigger difference with the locals. Also if you are interested in locals and your regional sports networks, I would suggest checking what Dish offers. I found that DirecTV offers all the major locals in HD (even a spanish language one believe it or not). Dish only offered the four major networks then I was in an area where they offered CW. So to summarize I get 8 local HD channels with DirecTV and only 5 with Dish. And I would be lucky to get 2/3 of my local teams in HD, but DirecTV shows them all from what I can tell.

The only major downside I'm having so far by switching is losing BBC America HD and the DVR. It's just plain cumbersome compared to Dish network's. I'm sure I'll get used to it soon, but I have to say DirecTV really needs to do a better job developing the ui and the way you access different features.

[domingos35]

I switched from Directv to Dish 1 year ago and i think Dish's HD pic is just as good if not a little better than Directv's.
SD is much better on Dish

[GrumpyBear]

I think if you sit in the 3-5 foot range from your TV you will see a better picture with Direct HD vs Dish HD. Most don't sit that close to 40+ in screens so its really hard to see any difference. Time Warner friends and Direct Friends can't see any difference in HD. All the Direct friends see a huge difference in SD, and several times thought a channel was HD as the SD picture was so clear.

I host most Charger football, party games here at my house, have several Direct users who can't see any difference at all. I host as the 722, with PiP and rewinding and slow motion control is less frustrating to the others. Buddy has a couple HR21's but we stopped going to his place a few years back as it was to frustrating to wait/watch him try to rewind and slow mo the picture and no PiP at all.

[CoolGui]

I agree, it's not really different enough to notice unless you are trying really hard to see any difference. But I think you might have it backwards, it's really impossible to tell on a smaller TV I think. I'm just judging from my 50", I couldn't tell a difference no matter how hard I looked with my 32".

[BattleZone]

As someone who deals with TVs for a living, here's my opinion:

There is a small but noticable difference between Dish HD and DirecTV HD, with DirecTV having less motion-based macroblocking and a bit more color depth. BUT... if you're using a lower-end TV, your TV is probably not good enough to allow you to see the difference, because the TV set itself will introduce artifacts. On a higher-end TV, the difference is easier to see.

On the flip side, Dish's SD is a little bit better that DirecTV's SD. But on anything bigger than a 32" TV, SD is simply going to look BAD on an HDTV, and again, in general, lower-end TVs will be noticably worse handling SD content, due both to using cheaper/lower-performance scaling chipsets and using lower-grade panels.

Having said that, unless you plan to watch a lot of SD, I would make SD performance of a TV set a low priority. Most original programming worth watching is shot in and is available in HD today, and most of what still isn't *will be* within the next 2 years (syndicated daytime shows, for example). SD is quickly becomming obsolete for new content, and HD is well on its way to being just "TV".

To get back to the subject: yes, there is a difference. Will you be able to see it, and even if you are, will it matter to you? Only you can answer those questions.

[CoolGui]

...Most original programming worth watching is shot in and is available in HD today...

I pretty much agree with this, the notable exception to me is The Amazing Race. They really need to make it in HD. Me and my wife have fallen in love with this show because we have traveled a lot too and we like to see the different places. I don't care so much for the drama, but a lot of that is manufactured anyway. Other than that I can't think of a single program that is a "must see" for me that is not in HD. Now the provider might not be carrying the channel, but the shows are mostly in HD.

[harsh]

Since you are a BBCA fan, I feel I should mention that KOPB PBS is not available in HD Portland, though unlike in my area it shows uplinked but not available on James Long's chart (http://jameslong.name/markets/f96.html). Of course, it is available OTA if you can get reception and can be recorded on any ViP DVR.KOPB gets out nicely OTA with its four subchannels and integration with DISH channels is excellent. Guide information is provided for 10-1 through 10-3. I don't think the all audio choices on 10-4 are available through the MTS scheme when using a DISH receiver.

OTA offers more than twice as many local channels as any cable or satellite provider in the Portland market.

[harsh]

Having said that, unless you plan to watch a lot of SD, I would make SD performance of a TV set a low priority.SD performance is critical on the channels not offered in HD by your carrier. No one should attempt to marginalize SD until most everything is available in HD.

[pdxtom]

Thanks so much for all of the input guys.

I think I've decided to go ahead and move over to Dish Network.
If I'm understanding what everyone here is saying correctly I have distilled it down to this to explain it to my wife;

The general consensus seems to be that there is a marginal difference in HD PQ in favor of DirecTV but nothing that will ruin our viewing experience and we will probably adjust pretty quickly.
SD may even look marginally better so the few shows we do occasionally watch in SD may actually be slightly more tolerable.

Considering our own viewing habits we will end up with much more HD content that is to our liking (BBC America etc) AND we will end up paying about $10 less a month for the "Everything" package than we do now with DirecTV with which we only have 2 premium channels.

I really do appreciate all of your positive and helpful input.
I was afraid that maybe I'd be spoken down to as a newbie here especially since this may have been one of those questions that folks are tired of discussing but you have all been truly helpful and I feel like I'm able to make a much more informed decision because of all you've given me to think about.

Thanks again!

[Paul Secic]

This is good to hear.

I was a little concerned that I was going to make the switch and see some huge reduction in PQ since I too have seen so much about Dish providing "HD Lite".

Any other input you guys have will be appreciated. I'm getting real cose to making the call so that I can have BBCAmerica in HD as well as a few others.

I just didn't want to give up the nice HD PQ that I'be gotten used to and since I have no way to compare (everyone I know has DirecTV) I was hoping to find help here.

Dish has lots more HD channels than DirecTV. I live on the west coast and the HD is outstanding to me.

[BattleZone]

Dish has lots more HD channels than DirecTV. I live on the west coast and the HD is outstanding to me.

Not true. Dish has many *different* HD channels than DirecTV has, and vice versa. The total count of HD channels between the two providers is almost identical.

DirecTV has chosen to use many of those HD channels for full-time RSNs, for example, while Dish has chosen to use theirs for more premium movie channels and more non-sports "national cable" channels. Different people will value one over the other, and that's why it's a good thing we have choices. Everyone should look at the ENTIRE picture and then choose the provider that best meets there needs (and knowing that neither may meet ALL the needs of many folks).

[biz]

Amazing Race is going HD next year! YAY

[pdxtom]

Well I made the switch...or at least I scheduled the switch. The local service tech will be here to do the install on Nov. 29 and DirecTV will be disconnected as of the 1st of December.

[CoolGui]

Amazing Race is going HD next year! YAY

Where did you read this? This is good news!

Well I made the switch...or at least I scheduled the switch. The local service tech will be here to do the install on Nov. 29 and DirecTV will be disconnected as of the 1st of December.

I think you will be happy with the choice as long as you don't expect to get every game in HD or MRV in HD (yet). The picture quality difference really is small.

[pdxtom]

Hey all!
I just thought that I would drop in now that we are all hooked up with Dish and share my observations. I think I can make a fair comparison since I was watching HD content on DirecTV only a couple of hours before the guy came and installed Dish.

First off is the main thing I was asking about to begin with; Picture quality.

I don't know if the difference between people's perceptions have to do with their specific model of TV, set screen size or some other factor but I can tell you that there is a most noticeable difference in the picture quality.
The resolution of the very best channels on Dish look to me to be along the lines of a DVD as compared to some of the channels on DirecTV which can look very close to Blu-Ray quality.

I'm not complaining though as I expected that there may be some step down in image quality based on what others here have said.
Bear in mind as well that I am viewing on a 55" 1080P set. I am willing to bet that the difference may not be as obvious on a set 50" or smaller.

Someone had mentioned that some SD looked better on Dish and I would agree; Some SD channels that I found to be unwatchable on DirecTV actually look decent enough to watch on Dish.
I have little doubt that my eyes will eventually adjust and I will become less aware of the difference in the HD image quality since it is, after all, still pretty decent.

The selection of HD channels with Dish seems much better to me; We got the "everything" package which offers not only many more HD movie channels than DirecTV does but about a dozen other HD channels that DirecTV does not.

We also got the VIP 922 box. The GUI, which is quite different from the other boxes Dish offers, is very attractive (maybe the best I've seen) and it is VERY fast and responsive whereas DirecTV seemed sluggish and often unresponsive.

So in the end I did take a marginal...although definitely noticeable...step down in picture quality BUT got a LOT more HD programming and a superior DVR all for about $10 less a month than I was paying for a middle-of-the-road programming package with DirecTV.

I think all in all I'm going to be very happy with the switch for a long time.

Thanks for all of your input.

[Stewart Vernon]

I hope you have verified that your Dish receiver is configured to output 1080i or 720p HD signals. By default all of the Dish receivers are set to 480i for compatibility purposes... so if you didn't specifically configure for HD output, then that would explain why you are seeing "DVD quality."

I can't speak to DirecTV of course... but while I can see problems with Dish HD sometimes, I would not say they look like DVD quality, with the exception of some "HD" channels that aren't really putting anything but upconverted programming on air.

[mdavej]

Thanks for the follow up, pdxtom. Glad you're not too disappointed.

I can go back and forth from OTA to Sat and see barely any difference on static images on my 60" 1080p. Maybe there is some difference in the eastern and western arcs too, since I'm on the eastern arc.

[pdxtom]

Hey guys;
Yes, it is configured for 1080i output.

And no, I'm not disappointed at all; My eyes are already adjusting so I'm less aware of the difference in PQ but the advantages of my Dish equipment and HD channel selection are still pretty exciting.

All in all I'm pretty darn happy that I made the switch.

[inazsully]

Hey guys;
Yes, it is configured for 1080i output.

And no, I'm not disappointed at all; My eyes are already adjusting so I'm less aware of the difference in PQ but the advantages of my Dish equipment and HD channel selection are still pretty exciting.

All in all I'm pretty darn happy that I made the switch.

I'm sure that something is set incorrectly. You should notice no PQ difference between "D" and "E". I've set up dozens of 722's for people. all coming over from "D" or COX here in Sun City West. You should call "E" and complain. They will send some else out to check your settings. Believe me, some installers just want to get you up and running and spend little time explaining the remote and making the proper set up steps. Look in the owners manual and open your menu. The set up is pretty logical and you'll learn a lot about the 722. Example, you can make several changes to how your guide is displayed and the direction in which it scrolls. The default scroll setting seems backwards to me.

[whatchel1]

How is you TV set connected to the 922? Is it using an HDMI cord or did the tech just use composite (Yellow for video & rd & wh for audio)?

[pdxtom]

Everything is set up for optimal PQ just like the DirecTV box was;
HDMI, settings on 1080i on the Dish box etc.

We essentially pulled the DirecTV box right out and plugged the Dish box into it's place. After the installer left I went through the settings and set everything up for the best image output.

I really don't think there's anything I could do to improve the picture; I think it's just a normal difference between the two providers (perhaps the West Coast is different that some other areas as one other poster mentioned).

I've seen numerous discussions about this on the net and there seems to be a lot of folks who say that just based on the technical specs...the resolution that DirecTV compresses the picture down to VS the final resolution with Dish...DirecTV is going to have a better image.

To be clear though; My comparison was not by any means a negative criticism; I'm quite please with the switch to Dish but truth be told there is a very noticeable difference in image quality especially on the highest quality HD channels like HDNet; On DirecTV HDNet looks like a Blu-Ray.

But the difference in the equipment and programming more than makes up for the difference in image IMO.

When I have more time I'll take your advice though and call E to see if there are any "hidden" settings or adjustments that may have been missed. I am, after all, only now familiarizing myself with the box.

[HobbyTalk]

Just to see if there is a difference, try the 720P output setting on the receiver to see if it makes a difference from the 1080i setting.

[ZBoomer]

On my TV, a 60" 1080p Pioneer Kuro Plasma, 99% of the time there is no noticeable difference between OTA HD, and the same program via satellite viewed from normal distance.

I can flip tuners back and forth instantly, and no one in the family can tell me which we are viewing, OTA HD, or Satellite HD.

If your HD looks like "DVD", regardless of what you say, SOMETHING is amiss.

[pdxtom]

I went through and rechecked everything a third time.

I also hooked the box up with component cables and was able to switch back and forth between that hook up and HDMI.
After fine tuning every available setting I got them both to look as good as possible.

I then hooked up my TV directly to the OTA antenna and put both the OTA and the Dish box on NBC which is the best image we get with our locals.

When I switch back and forth between the OTA connected directly to the set (which obviously means no compression in the image) and the Dish box (also on the NBC affiliate as sent out from Dish) there is almost no difference.
The OTA image looks like HD should and the NBC broadcast through the box look almost indistinguishable.

But when I go to the HD channels that typically have the best image quality...such as HDNet...that's where I see the difference.
The obnoxious little 'HDnet" logo that they put down in the lower right-hand side of the screen? It has obvious artifacts around it whereas before I changed providers it was crystal clear with no artifacts whatsoever.
When I watch the local NBC affiliate (again, using either the Dish box or the direct OTA hookup) there is essentially no motion blur or pixelization with fast moving images.
On the other (non local) HD channels...HDnet, NatGeo, BBCAmerica HD etc) there is a load of blur and pixelization when there is any high motion.

With the run-of-the-mill HD content such as that which you typically see on TBS I really don't notice much difference from my previous service provider.
It's on the "higher end" channels such as the ones I've mentioned that there is less detail and depth to the image.

Now if there were something amiss with the settings I don't know how the local affiliate could look so good.

I might mention one thing though;
The box I am using is the VIP 922 DUO. I emphasize DUO because the 922 units are no longer supposed to have DUO capabilities but mine clearly is labeled as such. It has the duo badge on the front of the unit, the duo settings for a second set in the menu etc.
The installer told me that this was the very first unit he had gotten and it has been sitting on the shelf for quite a while.

This all leads me to believe that this was one of the very first boxes off of the assembly line since the 922 'DUO" was supposedly done away with shortly after the units were announced so I would imagine that there could possibly be some difference between the box I have and the ones that are coming out of the factory now.

I am tempted to call Dish and ask if there is any chance that I could simply exchange this unit for a newer one but I'm not too sure that it wouldn't be a colossal hassle.

[scooper]

In the big scheme of things - unless there has been a noticeable hardware change - it should not make a difference at all. Your 922 will have the same software as a unit coming off the assembly line (or that one will have the same software as your's once it is activated and sees satellites).

[Stewart Vernon]

I wouldn't be surprised to find issues with Dish vs DirecTV if DirecTV is transmitting with less compression. I can't and haven't compared, but some have and have been able to tell a difference.

My concern was with the "looks like DVD" statement... and I can say without any hesitation that my Dish HD from my 922 does not look like DVD content at all... not in the slightest.

Not as good as my Blu-rays... but still very nice image quality as long as I'm at my natural viewing distance and not standing right in front of the TV trying to pick out the glitches.

[pdxtom]

There is one thing in the settings that throws me a bit; According to much of what I've read my box should support 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480i and 480p resolution yet there is no option in the settings for 1080p.
If I have it set on 1080i and view a 1080p VOD program does it just automatically convert it to the correct resolution?

[Stewart Vernon]

If you rent one of the 1080p offerings, the receiver does a quick test for compatibility... and lets you know if your HDTV doesn't support it so you can decide if you want to rent anyway.

IF your HDTV is compatible, then it switches to 1080p @ 24fps for the duration of the payback of the event... and then switches back to whatever your output setting is after you end the movie playback.

I tested a couple of times when I first got my newer HDTV that supports 1080p @ 24fps just to see how it all worked.

[Jeff_DML]

Sounds like something is wrong to me if your local HD look as good as OTA but your national HD look DVD quality. I watch hdnet quite a bit, far from blueray quality but definitely better the DVD.

[CoolGui]

I would agree it is not as bad as dvd quality. But I can tell a small difference on my 50" plasma with some channels. The local hd channels seemed the worse, but not even that bad, just slightly washed out color.

[levibluewa]

Up till a couple of months ago I had both Directv & DISH. I dropped Directv because of broken promises on adding national HD...DISH currently has 30+ channels that Directv does not. On a 46" lcd very little if any difference in HD picture quality. RE sd...DISH was often clearer.

[pdxtom]

I dropped Directv because of broken promises on adding national HD.

That was one of my key reasons as well.