Just switched to Dish to get TCM in HD

[oldtexan]

My wife and I got tired of waiting for Directv to offer the HD version of Turner Classic Movies. Turner launched this channel IIRC back in the summer of 2009. I asked Directv's CS folks about TCM in HD several times and always got the noncommittal response about Directv working to get more HD channels, yada yada yada. We were Directv customers for about 5-6 years.

Just wanted y'all to know that TCM HD looks awfully good to us on our Panasonic TC-P58V10 as viewed from our normal viewing distance of about 13', much clearer and sharper than Directv's SD feed of TCM through a HR21-700 HD DVR and shown on the same TV. The Dish receiver is a 922. I can't tell yet exactly what TCM HD's resolution is (720p or 1080i) but it looks clearly better than the 480p of a DVD.

Last night we watched MGM's 1938 version of A Christmas Carol. In closeups, I could see Reginald Owens' makeup, particularly the edges of the wrinkles around his eyes. Meet Me in St. Louis is on tonight and I'm curious to see how that compares to our DVD of that movie on our Oppo 83 player.

Haven't had a chance to compare TCM HD image quality to Blu Ray. I think TCM is showing An American in Paris in the next several days, and we have it on Blu Ray and DVD, so we'll be able to compare the three images.

[mdavej]

Welcome to the club. I did the same a few months ago. Loving TCM and the dozens of others I gained. My only regret is not switching sooner. Looking forward to your findings.

[tampa8]

Glad you are happy. But....... I am a long time Dish subscriber, almost from their beginning. But I would not normally recommend changing for just one channel. (Sports excluded such as Yankee fans = YES network) What if Dish drops TCM for some reason tomorrow? But if you are overall happier with Dish, then it is worth it for sure.

[Kent Taylor]

Too bad he didn't check with you first. :)

[HarveyLA]

Everything I have read says that most TCM-HD movies are upconverted to 1080i from SD, not true HD. They definitely look a lot better though. That is because the HD channel has a higher visual bit rate, and the letterboxed films fill most of the 16x9 screen, as opposed to TCM-SD where the 4x3 standard image has black bars at top and bottom.

With the old tube TV's, most people didn't realize how much Dish was compressing the picture. With HDTV's, the difference is painfully apparent. Most channels that are carried in HD look better, even if there is no HD program material.

I recall a comment from someone at TCM who said they are attempting to get HD masters on their films, but it could take some time.

[oldtexan]

I recorded An American in Paris, The Shop Around the Corner, and Meet Me in St. Louis last night and this morning. Just did some comparing of the DVD vs. recorded versions of The Shop Around the Corner, and Blu Ray vs. DVD vs. recorded version of An American in Paris. Equipment is as per OP.

The DVDs have more "grain" than the recorded versions. The recorded versions are for lack of better terms, "cleaner" and "smoother" than the DVD and better overall than TCM in SD on Directv. I could not say that one is actually a sharper image than the other. Color was better on the recorded AAiP than the DVD. As expected, the Blu Ray AAiP is sharper in terms of detail than the DVD or recorded version, with superb color, and is very clean.

My tentative conclusion is that Blu Ray > TCM HD Upconverted on Dish > DVD > TCM SD on Directv. No real surprises.

[Paul Secic]

My wife and I got tired of waiting for Directv to offer the HD version of Turner Classic Movies. Turner launched this channel IIRC back in the summer of 2009. I asked Directv's CS folks about TCM in HD several times and always got the noncommittal response about Directv working to get more HD channels, yada yada yada. We were Directv customers for about 5-6 years.

Just wanted y'all to know that TCM HD looks awfully good to us on our Panasonic TC-P58V10 as viewed from our normal viewing distance of about 13', much clearer and sharper than Directv's SD feed of TCM through a HR21-700 HD DVR and shown on the same TV. The Dish receiver is a 922. I can't tell yet exactly what TCM HD's resolution is (720p or 1080i) but it looks clearly better than the 480p of a DVD.

Last night we watched MGM's 1938 version of A Christmas Carol. In closeups, I could see Reginald Owens' makeup, particularly the edges of the wrinkles around his eyes. Meet Me in St. Louis is on tonight and I'm curious to see how that compares to our DVD of that movie on our Oppo 83 player.

Haven't had a chance to compare TCM HD image quality to Blu Ray. I think TCM is showing An American in Paris in the next several days, and we have it on Blu Ray and DVD, so we'll be able to compare the three images.

Welcome


I have had Dish since 1999. The HD is great..

[P Smith]

I recorded An American in Paris, The Shop Around the Corner, and Meet Me in St. Louis last night and this morning. Just did some comparing of the DVD vs. recorded versions of The Shop Around the Corner, and Blu Ray vs. DVD vs. recorded version of An American in Paris. Equipment is as per OP.

The DVDs have more "grain" than the recorded versions. The recorded versions are for lack of better terms, "cleaner" and "smoother" than the DVD and better overall than TCM in SD on Directv. I could not say that one is actually a sharper image than the other. Color was better on the recorded AAiP than the DVD. As expected, the Blu Ray AAiP is sharper in terms of detail than the DVD or recorded version, with superb color, and is very clean.

My tentative conclusion is that Blu Ray > TCM HD Upconverted on Dish > DVD > TCM SD on Directv. No real surprises.

Where the 'upconversion' came from ?

[RasputinAXP]

Where the 'upconversion' came from ?

Everything I have read says that most TCM-HD movies are upconverted to 1080i from SD, not true HD. They definitely look a lot better though. That is because the HD channel has a higher visual bit rate, and the letterboxed films fill most of the 16x9 screen, as opposed to TCM-SD where the 4x3 standard image has black bars at top and bottom.

With the old tube TV's, most people didn't realize how much Dish was compressing the picture. With HDTV's, the difference is painfully apparent. Most channels that are carried in HD look better, even if there is no HD program material.

I recall a comment from someone at TCM who said they are attempting to get HD masters on their films, but it could take some time.

Here.

[P Smith]

Got it; hear-say as usual and no official disclosure or gathered technical facts.

[RasputinAXP]

well yeah. Isn't that what we usually deal in?

[P Smith]

I'm prefer deal with facts especially if I can obtain them by myself - see my posts with chart, diagrams, spectrogram, etc ...

[HarveyLA]

I'm prefer deal with facts especially if I can obtain them by myself - see my posts with chart, diagrams, spectrogram, etc ...

Check this out:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=125622

A technical analysis by rauschpfeife (post number three) contains screen images of a TCM-HD frame and the same frame from a known HD source.
He blew up a tiny portion of each and proved that the TCM version was not HD.

The same thread indicates that somebody (allegedly) from TCM confirmed at a classic film festival that their movies are upconverted.

Here is another observation. The TCM web site makes no reference whatsoever to HD in its program schedule. There is a symbol for "letterbox" but not HD.

[P Smith]

I see ...

[Dish97]

The DVDs have more "grain" than the recorded versions. The recorded versions are for lack of better terms, "cleaner" and "smoother" than the DVD and better overall than TCM in SD on Directv. I could not say that one is actually a sharper image than the other. Color was better on the recorded AAiP than the DVD. As expected, the Blu Ray AAiP is sharper in terms of detail than the DVD or recorded version, with superb color, and is very clean.

My tentative conclusion is that Blu Ray > TCM HD Upconverted on Dish > DVD > TCM SD on Directv. No real surprises.

Thanks for the update. I was also pleased with the quality of "A Christmas Carol". Very clean for a B&W film from 1938.
If you're a "classic" movie buff, check out Cinemax's early morning schedule. Especially on 5 star and actionmax in HD. Usually an older film is shown.
I've got an EHD devoted to older movies and have close to 300. (no SD)
A true technicolor film even in 4X3 from the '40s looks terrific.
Got a nice clean copy of "The Three Faces Of Eve" in B&W & WS this morning for later viewing.

[Paul Secic]

Glad you are happy. But....... I am a long time Dish subscriber, almost from their beginning. But I would not normally recommend changing for just one channel. (Sports excluded such as Yankee fans = YES network) What if Dish drops TCM for some reason tomorrow? But if you are overall happier with Dish, then it is worth it for sure.

Now why would Dish drop TCM? Unless there's a dispute with TBS.

[maartena]

Everything I have read says that most TCM-HD movies are upconverted to 1080i from SD, not true HD.

Not quite true. Most movies are digitally remastered copies from the original 24 frame film it was recorded in. The 24 frame film is actually a lot better in quality then the standard SD resolution, and the big classics from the 1940s and 1950s are actually quite stunning in HD.

I just switched TO DirecTV from TWC. TWC did have TCM-HD, but I did not watch it often. But the times I did I was always amazed about the quality of some of these older movies.

For the record: NO movie was actually ever shot in SD, with the notable exception the pre-HD era "made for TV only" movies that never hit the theaters. Any movie that hit the theaters has been shot in analog 24-frame film, and as of the last 10 years or so they are shot with HD cameras, and then "downconverted" to 24 frame film for distribution to the cinemas.

Also: Not all movies have been digitally remastered from the original film. Many have been remastered in SD in the 70ies, 80ies for NTSC TV, and it is possible TCM-HD uses some of these as a source. But from what I have seen on TCM-HD, most have been remastered from the 24 frame film source, and are very enjoyable in HD.

[ASAOG]

Welcome


I have had Dish since 1999. The HD is great..

I just switched to Dish after nearly 20 years with DTV. The main reason for switching was the slow response of my DTV DVR's. DTV picture quality was great, but the hardware of late seemed to be lagging in responsiveness. Offers for "refurbished" hardware just didn't do it for me. I guess the straw that broke the camel's back was DTV's wanting to charge me for an antenna realignment because the roofers had to remove and replace the dish after hail damage. Apparently my protection plan payments did not cover this. By the time DTV offered free alignment, I had already switched.

I had considered jumping to Dish earlier but I had read how inferior the picture quality was compared to DTV. Well, as a newbie to Dish, here are my personal observations: Picture quality is as good as if not better than DTV. The Dish VIP 922 is superb...blazing fast, 1 GB hard drive, with a slingbox capability which works perfectly for me. I kick myself for tolerating my HR22-100 which was unbelievably unresponsive. And yes, I also enjoy watching TMC and AMC in HD. As stated, the HD is Great!

[paulman182]

I had a dream the other night that I was watching TCM in HD.

As a DirecTV subscriber, I was very sad to awaken from this dream.

Then again, if I had TCM-HD, I'd have so much to watch that I'd probably have to quit my job!

[HarveyLA]

not quite true. Most movies are digitally remastered copies from the original 24 frame film it was recorded in. The 24 frame film is actually a lot better in quality then the standard sd resolution, and the big classics from the 1940s and 1950s are actually quite stunning in hd.

Any film transfered to video before the HD era would have 480 horizontal lines. HD has either 720 or 1080 lines.

I just switched to directv from twc. Twc did have tcm-hd, but i did not watch it often. But the times i did i was always amazed about the quality of some of these older movies.

If the TCM movies are widescreen, they can look better in the same way that a standard DVD looks better on a widescreen TV. The standard DVD is 640x480. On an old tube tv (4x3 shape) or on TCM'S SD channel, some of those horizontal lines have to be discarded to make way for the letterbox bars at top and bottom. So you only see maybe 330-350 lines. The widescreen TV displays all 480 lines. So, if the TCM masters are not letterboxed to begin with, they have the capability of displaying a higher quality image on an HDTV. However, they are still "standard definition" in the sense that they only have 480 horizontal lines. They would be better, however, than a NTSC SD transmission.

For the record: No movie was actually ever shot in SD, with the notable exception the pre-HD era "made for TV only" movies that never hit the theaters. Any movie that hit the theaters has been shot in analog 24-frame film,
Film is not analog or digital. It is film. These days, transfers are all digital. Years ago, they only had analog videotape.
And as of the last 10 years or so they are shot with hd cameras, and then "downconverted" to 24 frame film for distribution to the cinemas.
Some are, some aren't. But that is not the issue. We are discussing TCM masters of old movies.

Also: Not all movies have been digitally remastered from the original film.
Many have been remastered in SD in the 70ies, 80ies for NTSC tv, and it is possible tcm-hd uses some of these as a source. But from what i have seen on tcm-hd, most have been remastered from the 24 frame film source, and are very enjoyable in hd.

Whether the masters are originally 24 or 30 frame is of little consequence when displayed on most HDTV's. The picture has already been converted to 1080i-30 frames per second by the time it reaches your set, which probably shows 60 images per second.
(or 120). Some sets have multiples of 24 frames for film sources, which makes for a slightly smoother display. However, this only relates to the "judder" issue, not whether the source is HD or not.

Another separate issue is whether the master is NTSC interlaced, or progressive. Most decent HD sets these days will remove the "interlace" from films shown in 1080i, and restore the progressive image for display (making them 1080p). The highly simplified explanation (i'll spare you the more involved technical explanation involving 3-2 pulldown) is, that unlike a live 1080i broadcast of a sports event, the "odd and even" lines in an interlaced 1080i frame transfered from a film, come from the same non-moving film frame. Thus, the original progressive image can be restored.

[matt]

Not quite true. Most movies are digitally remastered copies from the original 24 frame film it was recorded in. The 24 frame film is actually a lot better in quality then the standard SD resolution, and the big classics from the 1940s and 1950s are actually quite stunning in HD.

I just switched TO DirecTV from TWC. TWC did have TCM-HD, but I did not watch it often. But the times I did I was always amazed about the quality of some of these older movies.

For the record: NO movie was actually ever shot in SD, with the notable exception the pre-HD era "made for TV only" movies that never hit the theaters. Any movie that hit the theaters has been shot in analog 24-frame film, and as of the last 10 years or so they are shot with HD cameras, and then "downconverted" to 24 frame film for distribution to the cinemas.

Also: Not all movies have been digitally remastered from the original film. Many have been remastered in SD in the 70ies, 80ies for NTSC TV, and it is possible TCM-HD uses some of these as a source. But from what I have seen on TCM-HD, most have been remastered from the 24 frame film source, and are very enjoyable in HD.

Just another reason to keep shooting on film! :)

[APB101]

I had a dream the other night that I was watching TCM in HD.

As a DirecTV subscriber, I was very sad to awaken from this dream.

Then again, if I had TCM-HD, I'd have so much to watch that I'd probably have to quit my job!

This post cracked me up because of the spirit in which I believe it was intended. And I totally agree. Yeah, I too could have been dreaming that DirecTV rolled out: TCM HD, AMC HD, WE HD, IFC HD, SUND HD, truTV HD, E! HD, style HD, HINT'L HD, LMN HD, HLN HD, CSPAN HD, CSPAN2 HD, BBCAM HD, OWN HD, iD HD, LOGO HD, REELZ HD, TVGN HD, TVONE HD, CENTRC HD, SPRTSM HD, OUTCH HD, GALAe HD, QVC HD, HSN HD, JTV HD, FMC HD, GMC HD, FUSE HD, DIY HD, COOK HD, HBO2w HD, HBOFe HD, HBOFw HD, HBOLe HD, MOMAXe HD.

[Dish97]

Here is another observation. The TCM web site makes no reference whatsoever to HD in its program schedule. There is a symbol for "letterbox" but not HD.

Here's my visual observation for what it's worth.
Compared "It's A Mad...World" shown a few days ago with a copy shown on MGM HD last year. Really could not see any difference. Though I have other gripes with MGM HD, they usually do a good job with the actual HD presentation.
I remember the version of "..Mad Mad World" from several months ago on TCM HD not being as sharp and the colors a bit "washed out".
Searched my EHDs for that copy for comparison but must have deleted for the reasons stated above.
Not saying the last version shown on TCM HD was an actual true HD presentation. I would have no way of knowing. Just an eyeball
observation.

[SayWhat?]

see my posts with chart, diagrams, spectrogram, etc ...


H. Ross Perot?

[HarveyLA]

Not saying the last version shown on TCM HD was an actual true HD presentation. I would have no way of knowing. Just an eyeball
observation.

If the widescreen picture doesn't extend all the way to the sides of your screen, but has a little bit of black on either side, then it is probably one of the earlier 480p widescreen masters (as detailed in post #20), better than 4x3 letterbox, but not as good as true HD. I believe TCM is trying to obtain HD masters of the movies in their library, but that could take a lot of time. it is possible that an HD movie might start showing up occasionally.

[kucharsk]

If the widescreen picture doesn't extend all the way to the sides of your screen, but has a little bit of black on either side, then it is probably one of the earlier 480p widescreen masters (as detailed in post #20), better than 4x3 letterbox, but not as good as true HD. I believe TCM is trying to obtain HD masters of the movies in their library, but that could take a lot of time. it is possible that an HD movie might start showing up occasionally.

Please don't confuse "extending all the way" with HD, especially on TCM.

TCM HD will show movies in their OAR whenever possible, and that sometimes is 4:3, and is sometimes wider.

Ironically, no theatrical film has ever been exhibited in an aspect ratio of 16:9; the closest is 1.85:1 that will still leave thin black bars at the top and bottom of the screen.

For example, the released version of The Rocky Horror Picture Show is presented in the aspect ratio of 1.66:1 - leaving side bars on a 16:9 screen.

[Michael P]

Everything I have read says that most TCM-HD movies are upconverted to 1080i from SD, not true HD. They definitely look a lot better though. That is because the HD channel has a higher visual bit rate, and the letterboxed films fill most of the 16x9 screen, as opposed to TCM-SD where the 4x3 standard image has black bars at top and bottom.

With the old tube TV's, most people didn't realize how much Dish was compressing the picture. With HDTV's, the difference is painfully apparent. Most channels that are carried in HD look better, even if there is no HD program material.

I recall a comment from someone at TCM who said they are attempting to get HD masters on their films, but it could take some time.

Well I'm one of those with an old tube TV, believe me I could see the compression artifacts on the SD channels. I'm happy that E* offered "free for all". I may switch to the Eastern Arc to get the SD channels that are not available in HD in MPEG4 (and to get the missing HD channels I miss now by having 119/110/61.5). I bet that SD would look better in in MPEG4.