Will an indoor antenna work??

[edeclark]

Sorry to crosspost but but not too many people read the broadcast forum and I didn't get an answer so this is a 'general' quetion so I'll throw it here. Thanks.

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This question is for both analog & digital signals. I'm moving soon and will need to pick up Green Bay locals with an antenna. I think I may have to get by with an indoor antenna. I've used the CDBSCGI program through ardman.net with all 6 of the Green Bay zip codes. I limited the distance to 25 miles. I had to fiddle with the settings to get the DTV stations to come up but I finally got them. Check CP (Construction permit) AP (application), etc.

Anyway, ALL analog & digital towers are within 25 miles of ALL Green Bay zips. ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, UPN, WB, PBS. Its a small 'metro' area fortunately. The only digital channel which is not 'live' yet is the WB affiliate. HOWEVER instead of placing the digital tower in the same location as the analog tower the WB station has chosen to place it where the rest of the towers are. Mileages range from 5-22 and while every station comes up as 'city grade' the "F(50/50) FS (dBu)" field ranges from 84 (for the WB Channel 14 analog tower @ 21.4 miles) to 114 for some of the stations when I use the closer zips.

I did a newsgroup search but found very few posts regarding indoor antenna use. I did find one though and it said that even though 'city grade' is 74-80 depending on channel number you actually need much higher readings if you are just going to use an indoor antenna and expect a clear picture.

I've always lived in the middle of nowhere where a 30' outdoor antenna with amplifier is necessary for even a barely acceptable picture so I'm not used to being able to get a clear OTA picture and I'm even more out of touch with what's required for digital reception....

Any opinions on what signal strength is going to be needed to work with just a decent indoor antenna?? Is 84 dBu enough? Especially for digital.....

Thanks in advance.

[rollua1]

Indoor Antennas don't work . You will need a Good attenna like a wineguard and a 7778 preamp up at least 20 ft high. Maybey even a rotator.

Remember with Digital its a picture or no picture there is no snow with digital.

[freaktx]

My experience has been different. Dish installed a roof-mounted, unamplified directional antenna when they installed my 6000. The results from that were average at best - I got 2-3 stations depending on the mood of the airwaves on a given day.

On a whim, I plugged in an old Philips amplified antenna (VHF/UHF) to see what that would buy me. With this antenna, I instantly received a total of 10 stations, with a signal strength of about 80%. I'm 15-20 miles from the transmitters in the area (Atlanta). The only station I'm not getting that's of any consequence is WXIA-DT (10) - the signal seems very spotty, fluctuating from an average of 50% up to 80% and down to 0%. I think if I can slap a pre-amp on the chimney-mounted antenna and re-aim it combined with a widget to merge the UHF of the Philips antenna with the VHF of the outdoor antenna, I'll be golden.

My point is that you may be able to get surprising results using simple, indoor antennas, but you may not be able to get everything.

[GFloyd]

When I used my Stealthtenna indoors, it worked but I could only get 1-2 channels at a time w/o re-aiming it. Once I mounted it to the chimney (outdoors) - and after an hour of tweaking - I received all of the channels. I'm near Atlanta and about 40 miles from the cluster of stations. Some people have reported success with mounting an antenna in the attic, but I've rad that if the insulation has a silver backing you tend to lose the signal since the alloy reflects the signal away.

[nostar]

Your system is no better than it's weakest link. People spend thousands of dollars on their Tv's and audio system and then buy a $1.98 antenna. Do yourself a favor and get a descent outside antenna designed for your area.

[rollua1]

Get a Winegard 8200 and preamp


http://www.tvantenna.com/products/tvreception/tvantennas/winegard/HD-8200P.html

[edeclark]

Unfortunately...........

My original subject line sums up my problem. I CAN'T USE AN OUTDOOR ANTENNA because the landlord will not allow it. Illegal or not--if I do something like that they will find another reason to deny a lease or evict me. I will buy the best available indoor antenna, but unless its a small enough outdoor antenna that I can sneak outside and put under a fake rock on the ground--which probably wouldn't work much better than an indoor antenna anyway--I'm stuck with indoor options only.

I can't be the ONLY person in this situation!?

I have a HUGGGGGGGGGGGGE antenna where I live right now and it picks up CRAP, but I live in the boonies too. There is so much interference on Channel 3 which is a retransmitter of WFRV -5 CBS in Green Bay that I can barely see the picture. BUT if I had to requalify for networks @ Dish right now CBS would be denied which is a joke. I know its not Dish's fault but its still a joke that they say I can receive an acceptable picture on CBS. Here's the info for Channel 3 from ardman.net/bsexton's program based on my EXACT latitude/longitude:

CH: 3
CALLSIGN: WJMN-TV
CITY: Escanaba
ST: MI
SC: TV
STATUS: LIC
DISTANCE: 65.425
BEARING: 68.4
F (50,50) FS (dBu): 48.061
GRADE: GRADE B

47+ on Channel 3=GRADE B so alas.......DENIED!! Would a waiver be granted if I lost my grandfathering? Well, WJMN/WFRV are CBS-owned stations. Anyone having experience with getting waivers from CBS? REason I ask this separate question is because even though I am moving and had the question about Green Bay indoor antenna reception I live with somebody who will be keeping the Dish and might lose CBS eventually......

[GFloyd]

Have you considered a Yagi style in the attic? You could test it up there w/o running any cables. Once/if you capture good reception, then go about adding the cables.

I don't understand land lords who deny their tennats the option of adding a dish or an antenna. I own a rental home & I allow my tennats to add such items as long as they leave it when the leave. I now have a house that previously had 2 cable jacks completely wired with RG-6 in every room! There's a dish on the roof & if the current tennants want to erect an antenna, I'll say heck yes!

[edeclark]

I have settled on a new apartment and signed the lease. All dishes and external antennas are prohibited.....even if you have access to a private balcony. They won't even let first floor tenants mount a dish on a pole right next to the building! I don't think its legal--but I'm giving up Dish after 7+ years partly due to this restriction. I'm not going to rock the boat on the issue as I had a hard enough time finding a decent apartment. Here is the exact wording from the lease that I had to initial and sign:

Tenant agrees to help keep the appearance of your apartment community attractive......... The premises shall not be defaced with signs, advertisements, TV antennas, or satellite dishes.

"defaced"? That's a little harsh

They just flat-out tell you that if you have a dish or antenna you can go live elsewhere.

This is in Green Bay, WI by the way. The leasing company owns and operates over 20 *thousand* apartments in Wisconsin and has the same restriction for all of their complexes. Wow they sure are doing the cable companies a favor aren't they?

Not in my case however. I have an ESE facing window and the transmitting towers (with the exception of WB) are SSE (162-167 degree bearing) and 10-13 mile away so *hopefully* an amplified indoor antenna will be sufficient. The WB affiliate is completely blocked by the building (323 degree bearing) so I don't know how much luck I will have in that case. Its 14 miles away.

P.S. - I don't have an attic so that's also not an option. Its cable or indoor antenna. Cable pricing is steep for what you get so I'm trying my luck with the old-fashioned retro method of television reception. I also have an HDTV-ready set so a handful of channels on a TV like that is a waste but I have no choice since I chose the apartment that I did.

[xgrep]

Tenant agrees to help keep the appearance of your apartment community attractive......... The premises shall not be defaced with signs, advertisements, TV antennas, or satellite dishes.Yup, it sounds illegal. We do understand your situation ... you rock the boat, you get punished. Why don't you send one of us some info and WE'll report your situation to the appropriate authorities? Could that get things fixed?

At any rate, indoor antennas can work if your conditions are suitable. It's not a good bet, but it's worth a try. From my experiments (and other tests posted at various places on the web - search for Putman), the best indoor antenna results were with a Silver Sensor (marketed by Zenith and others) and a pre-amp. I used a Winegard 4700 UHF pre-amp with 19dB gain. The ChannelMaster 7775 is also very highly rated - lower noise, but higher gain - 26dB - perhaps too much for a short indoor cable run. You could try just the Silver Sensor first (about $30), and if that isn't enough, add the pre-amp. I don't think you can expect any better than that. If it doesn't work, you're out of luck.

x

[rcbridge]

Use the trial and error method, try a decent indoor antenna (you may need a low noise amplifier with it).
Many stores such as Radio Shack and Sears have a good return policy if it doesn't work for you take it back, then go for the outdoor solution. :)

[edeclark]

TV is on the move on Saturday. Mostly everything is packed and ready to go provided U-Haul gets the truck anywhere NEAR my location by then!! I will know by the late weekend just how hard/easy it will be to get the locals. I cannot SEE the broadcast towers from where I am but they are fairly close and also very close together. I see a lot of trees and two-story apartment buildings nearby in that direction. Nothing over 4 stories, no towers, no steeples. At least from my quick observation--which is the things they ask about at places like antennaweb. I'm also on the 2nd floor so that could help matters some. All of the stations are full-power with the exception of PBS. I'm starting out with a cheaper amplified UHF/VHF/HD antenna. I've heard about the silver sensor and heard it was very good but mainly for UHF/HD and highly directional. Directional wouldn't be a problem since 6 of the 7 stations are less than 5 degrees apart. Only 4 of the 7 are UHF though. 38-PBS, 26-NBC, 32-UPN, 14-WB (in opposite direction also). The other 3 are VHF. 2-ABC, 5-CBS & 11-FOX. My first trial-and-error antenna comes from Walmart. Yep, the cheapest of the cheap. The RCA ANT1250. I've read some very mixed reviews but the price is right.... I made sure to keep the box and inserts in perfect condition!

[xgrep]

I've heard about the silver sensor and heard it was very good but mainly for UHF/HD and highly directional.The Silver Sensor is *only* for UHF. And actually, it's not really all that directional compared to a good UHF yagi design. But you often need some directionality in a UHF antenna, because UHF is subject to lots of reflections that cause multipath distortion. The resulting ghosting is merely very annoying on an analog signal, but fatal to DTV.

If you're trying to get any VHF, you'll need a VHF antenna in addition to it. For indoors, pretty much the only thing that works for VHF is good old rabbit ears, believe it or not. The wavelengths are just too long for a small antenna, and nothing in the way of a real VHF antenna would be welcome indoors (aside from in an attic or maybe a very large closet).

The other 3 are VHF. 2-ABC, 5-CBS & 11-FOX. My first trial-and-error antenna comes from Walmart.From what you said about where the transmitting towers are, you may be able to get these analog stations reasonably well with rabbit ears.

[edeclark]

Thanks for all of the opinions everyone.

XGrep,

All 3 of the VHF stations are < 10 miles away. Right now I don't have a digital decoder for the DTV signals so I will see how bad the ghosting is on the analog UHF stations first and maybe that will give me some indication as to how well I will be able to pick up the DTV signals. I have a Dish 6000 but like I said my landlord says NO to all dishes so I don't think I can use it. I have heard that the 6000 only works with OTA signals if it has a dish hooked up + an active subscription. Another time I read that this was just a 'bug' that was to be fixed. So I guess that is my next question. Will the 6000 receive OTA DTV signals without a subscription? I ask because I don't have the 8VSB module and buying and adding that to my receiver would be cheaper than say going out and purchasing the Samsung 151....which is rapidly falling in price also over the last year or so. Using exact latitude & longitude this is what I get for distance from the transmitting towers for both the digital & analog stations.

CH CALLSIGN City ST SC Status Distance
(Miles) Bearing
(Degrees) F(50,50)
FS
(dBu) Grade Flags
26 WGBA GREEN BAY WI TV LIC 13.213 164.3 101.534 City Grade
38 WPNE GREEN BAY WI TV LIC 9.510 164.7 104.361 City Grade
32 WACY APPLETON WI TV LIC 13.213 164.3 98.555 City Grade
5 WFRV-TV GREEN BAY WI TV LIC 9.722 166.2 93.441 City Grade
14 WIWB SURING WI TV LIC 16.583 322.7 89.574 City Grade
11 WLUK-TV GREEN BAY WI TV LIC 9.725 162.0 102.444 City Grade
2 WBAY-TV GREEN BAY WI TV LIC 9.510 164.7 94.751 City Grade
59 WACY APPLETON WI DT CP 13.213 164.3 97.077 City Grade
41 WGBA GREEN BAY WI DT CP 13.213 164.3 97.077 City Grade
56 WFRV-TV GREEN BAY WI DT CP 9.722 166.2 102.216 City Grade
51 WLUK-TV GREEN BAY WI DT CP 9.725 162.0 103.405 City Grade
23 WBAY-TV GREEN BAY WI DT CP 9.510 164.7 104.327 City Grade
42 WPNE GREEN BAY WI DT CP 9.510 164.7 96.481 City Grade
21 WIWB SURING WI DT CP 14.839 166.5 92.577 City Grade

[xgrep]

I have heard that the 6000 only works with OTA signals if it has a dish hooked up + an active subscription.What we've learned in this forum is that you apparently don't need a subscription, but you do need a lock on a valid E* satellite. You can't use the 6000 with 8vsb as just an OTA receiver unless you also have a Dish somewhere pointed at a satellite. In any case, it's not the most modern OTA receiver. Almost anything else currently available would be a better choice if it's only OTA HD you'd be using it for, and it appears you may have no choice.

x

[edeclark]

Yep. That would be the case. ONLY OTA HDTV because of the restrictions.

I am in my new place now and have mixed results for analog OTA. Oddly enough NBC-26 comes in most clearly with the RCA ANT1250. 14 is snowiest as expected. 32 is acceptable but weak. 11 is very sensitive to the VHF 'rabbit ear' adjustment and 2 & 5........well, I have a question about 2 & 5. Is there something that I should look for that causes interference on low-band VHF channels? The picture is good on 5 and not too bad on 2 (depending on antenna position) but what I can't get rid of is a line that keeps travelling from left to right in rapid succession. What is that? Is that electrical interference? Something metal too closeby? All I know is its very annoying. I can get 5 to come in rather clearly but even with a clear picture I still have that line flying by and it just will not stop. I still have a mess here in this new place so I have many things to do but would appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks in advance,

by the way my mother is keeping my Dish setup and subscription so at least I'm not abandoning it altogether. I just have to settle for it when I visit her a couple of times a month instead. Now I'm down to 7 channels unless I choose cable which is very overpriced here in my opinion.

[edeclark1]

Well do you think I can remember my old login password? Nope. My old email address is now inactive too so I had to register over.

I decided to forego cable and am 'surviving' on 7 local stations via antenna. I bought an OTA HD receiver for $299 at Circuit City and 6 of the 7 channels provide at least 18 hours of programming on their digital counterparts (I can get 5). Its odd not to have the Dish anymore but I now have another perk I couldn't get in the middle of nowhere which was where I lived before--cable internet.

I can get the following DTV channels:

ABC (5AM-11PM) includes HD ABC programming when available & upconverted HD the rest of the time.

CBS (24 hours) includes HD CBS programming when available & upconverted HD the rest of the time.

NBC (24 hours) SD only. None of the HD NBC programs are shown that way.

FOX (18 hours) SD only. No Fox "Widescreen" available here.

PBS-1 (24 hours) HD/DD5.1, PBS-2 (24 hours) SD only.

UPN - Low power yet. I can't get a strong enough signal unless I hold the antenna in the air or stack it on piles of books.

WB - Going online 1/1/04. Nobody seems to know if its going to be 24/7 or if they will include the WB programs broadcast in HD or if they will be SD.

I have to turn to analog for ABC & FOX for part of the day which is a minor problem since I only have the Silver Sensor and these are VHF analog channels (2&11). WB & UPN analog are both UHF (14 & 32) so the silver sensor does a fine job picking these up when I want to watch them. The only inconvenience is that I have to switch inputs to see them.

Silver Sensor works OK and isn't as directional as I thought it would be. 14-WB comes from a different direction but I *usually* don't have to turn the antenna to get a decent picture. Sometimes, but not always. It seems to depend on the wind. If its windy the pictures comes and goes and the SS has to be turned in the other direction. During calm weather I don't even have to turn it.

Going from Dish to 7 local channels SUCKS though! Since i have the internet through Time Warner they are constantly calling me to get their overpriced digital package. I think its $60 a month and if I want their HD box to get the 3 channels they offer (CBS, ABC & PBS) I need to pay $6 a month extra. No thanks. No thanks, and once again leave me alone! No thanks.

To all the doubters that thought an indoor antenna would be useless--they weren't completely right. I'm only 10-14 miles from the towers but I can see the majority of the DTV channels just fine with the Silver Sensor and with the exception of Channel 2 which had really bad interference the analog stations are OK too. I'm sure if I was able to have an outdoor antenna or HAD an attic for an antenna I'd be able to get the UPN affiliate I can't pick up with the SS but other than that I can see everything that is available.

[dbdsac]

To all the doubters that thought an indoor antenna would be useless--they weren't completely right.
I also use a Silver Sensor indoor antenna for OTA HD. My local broadcast towers are @ 35 miles away and I receive all local digital channels at a signal strength of 65+ with no no amplification...no problem. :)