View Full Version : DLP TV's
I am in the process of researching tv's. I had made up my mind on a plama tv but I find the DLP tv's intrigueing. Their resolution is higher than the plasma but still carry a fairly small footprint. The technology has been around for some time but is just now available in TV's. Samsung, RCA and Zenith all have them. I am leaning toward the Samsung 43". Give me some pro's and con's so I can make an educated guess on which to buy. Three grand is a big expenditure and I want to make the right choice. Thankx for input.
ibglowin
10-01-03, 12:06 PM
I am in the process of researching tv's. I had made up my mind on a plama tv but I find the DLP tv's intrigueing. Their resolution is higher than the plasma but still carry a fairly small footprint. The technology has been around for some time but is just now available in TV's. Samsung, RCA and Zenith all have them. I am leaning toward the Samsung 43". Give me some pro's and con's so I can make an educated guess on which to buy. Three grand is a big expenditure and I want to make the right choice. Thankx for input.
Just my opinion here. Plasma is way cool but: Expensive for a true HDTV, subject to burnin, display fade over time,
DLP: Excellent PQ, better black reporduction than a RPTV, new technology, not a lot of players, NO burnin, user replaceable bulb, no convergence,
RPLCD (hybrid) :Excellent PQ, poorer black reproduction, less expensive than plasma or DLP, NO burnin, user replaceable bulb, no convergence,
I have a coupleof office mates that arein the same postion. Its really a toss up betwen DLP and PRLCD.
Plasmas don't like our HIGH altitude here (7000ft)
:eek2:
I'm leaning toward LCD flat panel over plasma, since LCD doesn't lose brightness as badly as plasma. But there are fewer available in the larger sizes.
Anyone know what the manufacturers are planning to do about plasma displays whose luminosity has dropped by 50%? I'd hate to have paid all that money to have a dim display in 5 years (or even 10).
x
gpflepsen
10-01-03, 04:32 PM
I have a 50" Samsung, HLM507. I wouldn't think of getting anything else. It rocks at XBOX, It kicks ass as a PC monitor, It has no convergence or burn in issues. It's footprint is small and it weights less than 80lbs. 8000 hrs on the bulb life is great too. Compare that to the other projection types.
Go to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=63 and do some reading.
I personally don't like LCDs for HD, blacks are too gray.
ibglowin
10-01-03, 04:46 PM
I'm leaning toward LCD flat panel over plasma, since LCD doesn't lose brightness as badly as plasma. But there are fewer available in the larger sizes.
Anyone know what the manufacturers are planning to do about plasma displays whose luminosity has dropped by 50%? I'd hate to have paid all that money to have a dim display in 5 years (or even 10).
x
The only problem with LCD at the moment is they have a Plasma price but not the PQ. The big ones just don't have the refresh rate they need to have compared to the other HD sets. The technology will supposedly come but it is still down the road a ways.
gpflepsen
10-01-03, 04:51 PM
If I liked LCD, I'd think about a LCoS RPTV. They have 1080p native scans, while DLPs are 720p and LCDs are ususally a goofy 768 or some other odd number.
ibglowin
10-01-03, 04:56 PM
If I liked LCD, I'd think about a LCoS RPTV. They have 1080p native scans, while DLPs are 720p and LCDs are ususally a goofy 768 or some other odd number.
Has anyone ever seen a LCoS TV on display???
They haven't found their way out here yet.
:(
gpflepsen
10-01-03, 07:06 PM
Has anyone ever seen a LCoS TV on display???
They haven't found their way out here yet.
:(
I read somewhere LCoS may have hit some snags. I think Toshiba was putting some eggs in that basket.
Nolzman
10-01-03, 08:06 PM
Has anyone ever seen a LCoS TV on display???
They haven't found their way out here yet.
:(
Hi Fi Buys/Tweeter has the LCos here in Atlanta, but I have yet to see it. They sell them site unseen and never have any on display. There are not many out there, but they are coming. Like DLP two years ago. I understand the PQ is better than DLP, and definitely better that LCD. But still a little pricey. Will need to wait a year or so to get some competition, again like the DLP two years ago.
Big Bob
10-01-03, 09:02 PM
Be careful of the "Rainbow Effect" with DLP. If you have sensitive eyes, it can really bug you.
Unfortunately, I am one of those unlucky persons. I had never heard of the "Rainbow Effect" when I looked at my first DLP. It was a real bad program for it too, lot of action with lots of blacks. I asked the salesman what all the rainbows were from. He looked at the screen and said "What rainbows?" I pointed at them and he couldn't see them! I did some research and found that this is a know problem with DLP. Unlucky Me :(
Some of the newer models have reduced the effect by using a different color wheel, but even on the best DLP, it still bothers me.
Bums me out, cause I really wanted to get one.
gpflepsen
10-01-03, 09:07 PM
Be careful of the "Rainbow Effect" with DLP. If you have sensitive eyes, it can really bug you.
Unfortunately, I am one of those unlucky persons. I had never heard of the "Rainbow Effect" when I looked at my first DLP. It was a real bad program for it too, lot of action with lots of blacks. I asked the salesman what all the rainbows were from. He looked at the screen and said "What rainbows?" I pointed at them and he couldn't see them! I did some research and found that this is a know problem with DLP. Unlucky Me :(
Some of the newer models have reduced the effect by using a different color wheel, but even on the best DLP, it still bothers me.
Bums me out, cause I really wanted to get one.
If you're reeally drunk, do the rainbows go away? :)
I can make myself see them on very specific types of pictures. But that is nowhere near normal viewing conditions.
Just my opinion here. Plasma is way cool but: Expensive for a true HDTV, subject to burnin, display fade over time,
DLP: Excellent PQ, better black reporduction than a RPTV, new technology, not a lot of players, NO burnin, user replaceable bulb, no convergence,
RPLCD (hybrid) :Excellent PQ, poorer black reproduction, less expensive than plasma or DLP, NO burnin, user replaceable bulb, no convergence,
I have a coupleof office mates that arein the same postion. Its really a toss up betwen DLP and PRLCD.
Plasmas don't like our HIGH altitude here (7000ft)
:eek2:
Actually, CRT based HDTV's still offer the best picture quality at the best price and their black levels are superior to all other as well.
gpflepsen
10-01-03, 09:41 PM
Re: CRT RPTV
If I was keeping to a budget, I'd go with a decent 50-55" CRT for $1,600 - $2,100. They are the leader in bang for buck.
But they are so, ewww, old technology. ;)
ibglowin
10-01-03, 09:41 PM
Actually, CRT based HDTV's still offer the best picture quality at the best price and their black levels are superior to all other as well.
Yes and they can pull double duty as a ships anchor when not in use!
:nono:
gpflepsen
10-01-03, 09:46 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3049621764&category=15079
http://www.shopsunshine.com/images/items/hdlp50w151.jpg
$2900
ibglowin
10-01-03, 09:52 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3049621764&category=15079
http://www.shopsunshine.com/images/items/hdlp50w151.jpg
$2900
Hmmmm. My wife would kill me but tempting! Good price but feedback is way to negative for a purchase as big as that!
Yes and they can pull double duty as a ships anchor when not in use!
:nono:
I never said they were as slimline as LCD's!
If you want the coversation piece or have minimal space then LCD's etc.. are the way to go but if you want the best picture quality you need to get CRT based RPTV's or front projection.
If you talk to trained professional's (e.g ISF techicians. reviewers etc)all say CRT based TV's are the best current display type. There limitations are brightness and size. If room size is not an issue I would definitely get a CRT based rear projector. Plasmas do not have good black levels yet although they are improving. The plasma also burns the phosphors over time making whites gray.
That said, my ISF friend said that at CEDIA Samsung showed a front projector DLP designed by Joe Kane (think Video Essentials). For the first time he told me my future was not a CRT. At present this is listed to go for 10K. While expensive, the rumor has it that dealers where asking Samsung to raise the price since it is better than more expensive ones they sell. Bodes well for future mass market sets though.
Forget to mention, my local tweeter has a Toshiba LCoS on display. I can't believe anyone would buy one based on the store model. The bottom has what looks like jagged gray mountains sticking up 2-3 inches from the bottom. Also it has motion artifacts.
Martyva
10-02-03, 08:51 AM
Life span: Age of Technology:
DLP 100,000 hrs+ 20+years
CRT 4,000 hrs deteriation 1898
LCD 60,000 hr bulb 30+ years
LCOS 10yr chip 10+ years (rearLCD&light valve also)
Plasma 7 year (estimate) 35 years
Mike123abc
10-02-03, 09:53 AM
You left out that DLP has a bulb that will need replacing regularly.
Martyva
10-02-03, 09:57 AM
DLP bulbs and any rear projection non CRT units bulbs need to be replaced every 6000 to 8000 hours. Front projectors every 2 to 3000 hrs. Bulb costs 250 to 400. CRT Tube replacement, if replaced when picture deteriates about 4000 hrs a bundle. 20 hours a week + 1000+ per year
gpflepsen
10-02-03, 10:37 AM
You left out that DLP has a bulb that will need replacing regularly.
Post # 2 and 3 mentioned this. Reqularly is a relative term. At 5 hours per day, 365 days per year, you're looking to replace the bulb in about 4.4 years.
Let's look at PQ, comparing a 5 yr old CRT and and a 5 year old DLP.
My CRT is 3 years old and the picture is as good as the day the ISF tech left. I observe no wear. Now a CRT that is not tuned properly, i.e. left on too bright will show wear.
Notice I didn't say good as new, since new it was not very good. Now it is stunning.
Life span: Age of Technology:
DLP 100,000 hrs+ 20+years
CRT 4,000 hrs deteriation 1898
LCD 60,000 hr bulb 30+ years
LCOS 10yr chip 10+ years (rearLCD&light valve also)
Plasma 7 year (estimate) 35 yearsDLP stat is pure speculation as there are no 20 year old DLP TV's! (still has less picture quality)
CRT stat is pure BS! CRT's will give at least 10,000-12,000 hours of useful life! Unless your an idiot and run your contrast and brightness all the way up from day one!
LCD No way you get 60,000 hours off a single bulb! (still has less picture quality)
LCOS stat pure speculation as there are no 10 year LCOS TV's. (still has less picture quality)
Plasma stat again pure speculation as there are no 7 year old plasma's! (still has less picture quality)
Considering the fact that almost no one will keep there HDTV's longer then 10,000 hours anyways all these inflated stats on the non-CRT based TV's are unimportant!
Martyva
10-02-03, 12:07 PM
Where does your information come from?http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=1&article_id=490&page_number=1
Martyva
10-02-03, 12:17 PM
http://www.sharp-usa.com/products/TypeLanding/0,1056,s68,00.html
Martyva
10-02-03, 12:25 PM
http://www.buyplusdirect.com/site/papers.html
Read the white papers on this site
Martyva
10-02-03, 12:33 PM
i'm old and slow and missed this one by 10 yearshttp://www.aip.org/aip/corporate/1997/bios/hornbeck.htm
Martyva
10-02-03, 01:44 PM
http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/heilmeier.html
Martyva
10-02-03, 02:53 PM
Some encouraging news about Plasma a technology that began developement in the 1960s
http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/heilmeier.html
The only problem with LCD at the moment is they have a Plasma price but not the PQ. The big ones just don't have the refresh rate they need to have compared to the other HD sets. The technology will supposedly come but it is still down the road a ways.
Huh? The new panasonic 50" is getting Rave Reviews and it can be had for $2700+tax.
Go see one, they are quite nice.
Some encouraging news about Plasma a technology that began developement in the 1960s
http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/heilmeier.html
A "Technology" that started in the 60's but has only been 6-7 years as TV technology available to the public.
Martyva
10-02-03, 03:33 PM
Hell yes the early ones ran so hot they took an airconditioner the size of the Superdome's. The Panasonic with the rave reveiews, i think is rear projection LCD
Martyva
10-02-03, 04:17 PM
http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/093003philips/
The technology to look for in the future is Laser projectors! Click Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=276829&highlight=laser) for more info on this technology.
Martyva
10-02-03, 05:10 PM
I predict that , in less than 5 years, it will be difficult to find a consumer grade CRT larger than 14" And that there will be a display technology that will be disruptive to the industry
gpflepsen
10-02-03, 05:14 PM
...And that there will be a display technology that will be disruptive to the industry
A display technology not in existence today?
Martyva
10-02-03, 05:28 PM
It could be. I think both SED and Nanotubes have a chance of being very disruptive. It could change the way we think of displays. Our industry has been in a deflationary mode for over 30 years. So for a technology to be disruptive it would have to be major event.
ibglowin
10-02-03, 05:56 PM
Huh? The new panasonic 50" is getting Rave Reviews and it can be had for $2700+tax.
Go see one, they are quite nice.
I am talking the "pure" flat panel LCD that looks and are as slim in design as a plasma (and cost as much).
You are talking about the REAR PROJECTION LCD HYBRID of which I agree is awesome I own not one but two. Currently IMHO the most bang for the buck out there.
Martyva
10-09-03, 03:22 PM
Rumor has it that SED is now down to about a 3/8" thickness and should be available next year, this time
JBtampa
10-11-03, 07:29 AM
Video purists are largely still in the crt camp. Much more can be answered (and asked) in the AVSforum. Highly recommended.
Martyva
10-11-03, 04:03 PM
Yes at least 10% of the discussion in their front and rear projection forums has to do with CRT. If there is any video purists still in the CRT camp, dollars to donuts, says that they prefer A.M. to F.M. also
Dumb question.
What do DLP & LCOS stand for?
Martyva
10-13-03, 09:37 AM
DLP for digital light panel developed by Texas Instruments
LCOS for liquid crystal on silicone similar to light valve or light amplifier technologies.
Yes at least 10% of the discussion in their front and rear projection forums has to do with CRT. If there is any video purists still in the CRT camp, dollars to donuts, says that they prefer A.M. to F.M. also
Ha! :lol:
I don't know that I would go that far, but I would go as far as saying that whatever a purist is, they usually have non-standard priorities.
I once wrote that your average consumer probably picks a TV based on:
1) Size
2) Price
3) Features and Brand
4) Picture Quality
A purist would be more like
1) Picture Quality
2) Features and Brand
3) Size
4) Price
Size matters, boys (and girls). This includes not just screen size but footprint. I seriously doubt anyone will be buying RPTV's in 5 years time, and within 3 they will be the bargain shoppers choice. I also don't see picture quality getting much better on Rear Projection solution, but LCD and Lycos can still improve in that area.
Even though I just bought a 57" RPTV, I know the writing is on the wall and the future is not in a cabinet that is 4 feet high, 5 feet wide and 3 feet deep.
Martyva
10-13-03, 10:19 AM
Most "purists" have opted for 3 gun front projectors and are lamenting the digital world or embracing it. Not many of us can afford an 8 hour eight gun alignment any time the wind is blowing out of the southwest. The real purist is still using 35mm film projectors--talk about a hobby you have to be devoted to. And many of those are looking at the new digital technologies. Very few "purists" have ever considered direct view CRT, because of screen glare problems. Like you my next purchase will probably purchase RPTV, next..but it will be this year.
ibglowin
10-13-03, 10:27 AM
Update on recent shopping for a DLP tv by my co-workers. One was told by a salesman at Ultimate Electronics that they were having a difficult time recommending DLP Tv's these days as they have had quite a few returned and or need repair within the first year due to problems with the DLP technology. It seems that moving parts (spinning wheel) are causing quite a few troubles with these sets.
Anyone actually own a DLP set and if so, any problems so far?
Martyva
10-13-03, 11:09 AM
DLPs from Samsung are hard to get and from RCA not quiet here and will be hard to get. Many salesman, unfortunately, look for the quick sale and say things that may be a bit misleading.
gpflepsen
10-13-03, 11:25 AM
Update on recent shopping for a DLP tv by my co-workers. One was told by a salesman at Ultimate Electronics that they were having a difficult time recommending DLP Tv's these days as they have had quite a few returned and or need repair within the first year due to problems with the DLP technology. It seems that moving parts (spinning wheel) are causing quite a few troubles with these sets.
Anyone actually own a DLP set and if so, any problems so far?
I have one, have had it for a year. The picture out of the box was OK, about like any other TV. After tweaking the service menu for color and a few other things, I wouldn't give it up.
It is a 50" Samsung DLP.
By the way, DLP stands for Digital Light Processing. See http://www.dlp.com/#Scene_1
I would say most of the complains for DLP have been because of color rendering, which is a software issue. These are addressed with settings within the service menues. A few people experience the rainbow effect, where the different bands of color are perceived instead of being blended by our brains.
LCoS is the very same principle of blending different primary colors as is used in DLP. The difference is the execution. The reflective panel of the DLP is actually made of many mirrors which physicaly move. The LCoS reflective panel is just a reflective LCD. Normal LCD RPTVs use a transmissive LCD panel.
Yes at least 10% of the discussion in their front and rear projection forums has to do with CRT. If there is any video purists still in the CRT camp, dollars to donuts, says that they prefer A.M. to F.M. alsoI don't think you are aware of just what a video purist is! A video purist wants the best video quality not a conversation piece that cost more and has less video quality like the non-CRT based HDTV's like plasma TV's are. CRT's are embraced by the VAST majority of video purist for one reason and one reason alone and that is it has the best video quality of any HD technology out there... period! Just because CRT based technology has been around for 50 years doesn't mean automatically the newer technology is better. At some point in the future digital HDTV's will indeed surpass CRT based HDTV's in video quality but NOT today.
What kind of technology is LCOS?
thanks
gpflepsen
10-13-03, 05:42 PM
For some brief explanations of the RPTV technologies, check out
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/projection-tv.htm
lastmanstanding
10-17-03, 07:35 AM
Be careful of the "Rainbow Effect" with DLP. If you have sensitive eyes, it can really bug you.
Unlucky Me :(
Some of the newer models have reduced the effect by using a different color wheel, but even on the best DLP, it still bothers me.
Bums me out, cause I really wanted to get one.
Big Bob,
Good news! TI just rolled out a 3 chip DLP for HD that will hit the market in December. The first implementation will be projectors, but surely rear projection sets will follow. No color wheel, and no RAINBOWS!
Anyway, I am excited about it.
LMS
gpflepsen
10-17-03, 07:48 AM
Big Bob,
Good news! TI just rolled out a 3 chip DLP for HD that will hit the market in December. The first implementation will be projectors, but surely rear projection sets will follow. No color wheel, and no RAINBOWS!
Anyway, I am excited about it.
LMS
I thought it would be a long time until this happened. What pricepoints will they hit? I'll wager the three chippers will be high end only.
Do you have any links to information?
lastmanstanding
10-17-03, 08:10 AM
I thought it would be a long time until this happened. What pricepoints will they hit? I'll wager the three chippers will be high end only.
Do you have any links to information?
http://www.dlp.com/about_dlp/about_dlp_press_release.asp?id=1183
gpflepsen,
Hey, I am sure you are right. The first units out of the box will be at the high end, BUT the single chip DLP projectors have recently shown a drop in price, I presume to give room for pricing the 3 chippers as they arrive. 3 chips solve a lot of problems, and actually simplifies manufacture, while giving a superior picture.
A bit of trivia. The WSJ reported that when TI submitted the DLP to the FCC for a grant to encourage HDTV techologies, the FCC thought is was a joke! Turns out TI wasn't kidding.
Personally, I recommend putting foil on the windows, painting the wall white, and getting the best DLP projector you can afford. Nothing: LCD, Plasma, CRT, Etc. compares to a 160 inch diagonal image. Period. And decent projectors (XGA) run ~$1500 these days. About the tax on a 42" plasma from a few years ago.
LMS
I have owned a Samsung HLN 617 DLP RPTV for 8 months now and think it
was my best decision so far. It was great out of the box and even better
after tweeking it with the DVE. I was wanting the Pioneer Elite Plasma but
couldn't see spending 10K on a HDTV. My neighbor recently bought the new
Hitachi LCD RP HDTV. It to looks great but contrast and detail is a little lower
than the Samsung. My only complaint about the Samsung is the remote.
It has all the needed controls but looks like it came from the 90s.
Martyva
10-18-03, 12:04 PM
Most of the original HD DLPs were 3 chip. The larger single chip makes manufacturing costs much lower, while eliminating any fear of "burn-in" The DLP 'Alice' was about 50K 4 to 5 years ago. I think the Christie theater projector is 3 chip 1280X720
lastmanstanding
10-18-03, 06:50 PM
Most of the original HD DLPs were 3 chip. The larger single chip makes manufacturing costs much lower, while eliminating any fear of "burn-in" The DLP 'Alice' was about 50K 4 to 5 years ago. I think the Christie theater projector is 3 chip 1280X720
I think this new assembly is a one piece affair. It should bring better performance to a lower price point. I remember some of those early DLPs, and frankly, I don't remember being too impressed.
Anyway, I am looking forward to auditioning these new rigs.
LMS
Martyva
10-30-03, 03:59 PM
Closing 12 of 17 CRT plants in the next 2 years doesn't bode well for the life of the CRT's use as a video display
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/28/business/worldbusiness/28CND-SONY.html?ex=1068008400&en=b1a115ad52f1ebc7&ei=506 2&partner=GOOGLE
lastmanstanding
10-30-03, 04:57 PM
Bye bye CRT. My how times change.
LMS
Closing 12 of 17 CRT plants in the next 2 years doesn't bode well for the life of the CRT's use as a video display
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/28/business/worldbusiness/28CND-SONY.html?ex=1068008400&en=b1a115ad52f1ebc7&ei=506 2&partner=GOOGLEThese closing have more to do with CRT based computer monitors NOT TV's. CRT TV's still have a while before the wholesale closing of TV CRT plants happens.
After much researching in this forum and the avsforum I bought a direct view toshiba with dvi input. I was looking at dlp and plasma but the reliability isn't there yet. I figure this will be a 3 year set as my main tv and by then either dlp or lcos will have the bugs out. Nobody beats Sony or Toshiba direct views when they are tweaked correctly and they both have dvi connections. My choice on the Toshiba was based on width to fit in my existing location. I have upgraded all my equipment. XP30 DVD from Panasonic. SA-XR45 receiver from Panasonic. Klipsch Quintet speakers and subwoofer. I'm waiting for the 811 and away I go. Thankx again.
Wiggy
lastmanstanding
10-31-03, 08:51 AM
Wiggy,
You really did it. Enjoy the heck out of it!
LMS
Martyva
11-10-03, 08:45 AM
http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/031109/2347000518_1.html
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