HDTV: Dish versus Cable?, and other HD questions

[dtcarson]

This is not meant to be a troll; my questions are as if I were a layman ignoramus here [big stretch, I know.]
I just got a widescreen HDTV 'monitor' [ie, no tuner included.] I'm with DishNetwork, and just used their DishMover plan, so I'm locked in with Dish for about 14 months [2 original, 12 on DM.]

For me to go 'high def', my options are:

1. buy an OTA receiver, which I saw at Circuit City today for 299-399. Install an antenna, which runs between 50-300 bucks. That will get me my locals, for free, in HD, assuming I am within their broadcast range. Correct?

2. buy a Dish 6000/6000U [msrp about 500], and the 2 adapters, and an antenna. Does that act as an OTA tuner only, or is it OTA/SAT? Would I still get my locals in HD for free, or since it's coming through the sat reciever, it would be 5.99 or whatever? [I would want to continue locals anyway, because we have 3 tv's, only one of which is HD-ready.]

3. buy one of the new Dish receivers and the Superdish when they come out, what is it, the 811? which will run probably at last 399 all told.

4. I was browsing the cable co. website because I have to transfer my broadband account, and it says: "You can pick up a high-definition converter box from Time Warner Cable! The monthly price for an HD box is the same as a digital converter" which is around six bucks or so. And it says "Time Warner Cable continues to be one of the few cable companies to carry all HD signals from all of our local broadcasters" so one reciever would carry my HD locals, and all my digital cable content; versus satellite, where I would need an OTA and Sat, or a SAT combo unit, which then I would have to stay with Dish to continue using. So there's no initial hardware cost with this method, since it doesn't even look like I need an antenna, since they are 'carrying all HD signals.'

Are all those comments correct?

Again, I'm not meaning to be a cable troll in any form or fashion, I hate the cable company in general and my local one in specific, but I can definitely see that if what I state above is correct, it is definitely a lot easier/cheaper to go HD thru cable, instead of satellite. I'm locked into Dish, like I said, for ~14 months, and currently, the PVR functions [I have 2] are a higher priority than HD content [I don't watch much network tv, and no sports, which is what most HD content appears to be right now], so this isn't an issue at the moment, but unless the satellite companies are content to be more 'elitist' with regards to HD, there are huge obstacles in the way of mass acceptance of satellite HD. I'm not technical, so there may be technical reasons why DBS has to do it one way and cable can do it another, nor am I a lawyer, and I know there are all sorts of legal roadblocks in front of DBS that aren't in front of cable; and I'm already [slightly] more knowledgeable than the average consumer; but if I, Joe Consumer, were to call Dish, or walk into Sears/CircuitCity/BestBuy, and say "I have an HDTV, I want HD signals on my TV" it seems like a major PITA [and expense] and cable, for all its faults, looks like it makes it [comparatively] easy.

[xgrep]

I've dealt with pretty much the same questions, and they're not "trolling" at all, as far as I can see.

1. buy an OTA receiver, which I saw at Circuit City today for 299-399. Install an antenna, which runs between 50-300 bucks. That will get me my locals, for free, in HD, assuming I am within their broadcast range. Correct?The only thing incorrect is the antenna price. Unless you're in such a bad situation that you need a moby array or giant tower of some sort, you probably won't go much over $100, even figuring for mast and hardware, a pre-amp, etc.

2. buy a Dish 6000/6000U [msrp about 500], and the 2 adapters, and an antenna. Does that act as an OTA tuner only, or is it OTA/SAT?It's been said that you have to have a Dish subscription for the 8vsb OTA tuner adapter to work. I'm not totally sure this is correct - it may be that you only need to have a lock on an E* satellite, or, minimally, the $5 minimum receiver activation, which gets you the barker channels, some sellavision, Good Samaritan, PPV, etc. Even an unactivated receiver pulls in some channels if it's locked onto any E* bird.

Would I still get my locals in HD for free, or since it's coming through the sat reciever, it would be 5.99 or whatever?You get them for free, but you do need to have a live receiver of some sort.

3. buy one of the new Dish receivers and the Superdish when they come out, what is it, the 811? which will run probably at last 399 all told.More than that. The 811 with Superdish installed will be $599. It's due Nov 1, but it might not be available in quantity until some time later.

[stuff about TWC] Are all those comments correct?They look to be. I've got Comcast cable for HD at the moment. They added $5 to my subscription price to upgrade one of my boxes to an HD model. Other than that, it cost nothing extra. I get the same channels I was getting before, but ones that are in HD now have video, where before there was only audio on those channels (they were always available as normal SD on different channel numbers). Comcast offers (in my area) only 6 channels in HD: three are network locals (PBS, ABC, NBC) and three are "premium national" (ESPN, SHO, HBO). I was only interested in the three networks, so didn't make any changes to my subscription.

When I did try an OTA tuner (Samsung SIR-T165, which I can highly recommend), there were several more local stations broadcasting HD, though to be honest, just because the signal is HD doesn't mean the content is. For example, Seinfeld reruns sucked just as much when up-converted as in the original analog 480i. Also, some sporting events that are supposedly HD are not really that great. I measured the bit rate on a few broadcasts and many didn't get over 13Mbps, which is marginally HD, in my opinion (good HD runs up to around 25Mbps or even higher) and visually not too spectacular, either.

You figure an OTA tuner is $300 - $600 and you get maybe some more local HD content for free (assuming your antenna efforts are fruitful). At Comcast's $5/mo, it will be over 8 years before it will exceed the $500 price tag on that tuner (and that was a very good deal on it). I guess I can live with a bit less content. The only thing I regret about Comcast vs E* is there's no HD PPV (at least I haven't found any if it exists). I really would like to watch some movies in HD. But I'm just so pleased with my local PBS in HD (that E* didn't offer - in fact they don't have any PBS HD, though I wouldn't mind Discovery HD - but they charge for it!), that it more than makes up for the loss. The 7-part series "The Blues" was to die for - and they ran it twice!

If I had to summarize my experience, I'd have to say the jury is still not in. I really want to be able to record HD on a DVR. The 921 will be out in a couple of months (at a very steep price); Comcast's HD DVR is still in the works (the Motorola box is out, but the SW is presumably being developed). Tivo has an offering that will eventually show up, too, and will probably be more stable than anything from Dish, but maybe there won't be as much HD content. None of the satellite companies will be able to offer as much local content as a cable company or, obviously, a good OTA setup.

cable, for all its faults, looks like it makes it [comparatively] easy.That's probably a good assessment of the situation at the moment. There are so many factors involved, and everyone's needs are different, so it's really hard to know what to do. But things change quickly where HD is concerned (on the order of every year, anyway). What works today might not be the best solution in 6 months.

x

[Ken_F]

2. buy a Dish 6000/6000U [msrp about 500], and the 2 adapters, and an antenna. Does that act as an OTA tuner only, or is it OTA/SAT? Would I still get my locals in HD for free, or since it's coming through the sat reciever, it would be 5.99 or whatever? [I would want to continue locals anyway, because we have 3 tv's, only one of which is HD-ready.The older 6000 and its upcoming 811 replacement do both OTA and SAT. If using OTA for locals, yes, they would be free.

4. I was browsing the cable co. website because I have to transfer my broadband account, and it says: "You can pick up a high-definition converter box from Time Warner Cable! The monthly price for an HD box is the same as a digital converter" which is around six bucks or so. And it says "Time Warner Cable continues to be one of the few cable companies to carry all HD signals from all of our local broadcasters" so one reciever would carry my HD locals, and all my digital cable content; versus satellite, where I would need an OTA and Sat, or a SAT combo unit, which then I would have to stay with Dish to continue using. So there's no initial hardware cost with this method, since it doesn't even look like I need an antenna, since they are 'carrying all HD signals.'

Are all those comments correct?
Many cable affiliates are not carrying all the HD signals; many are carrying the ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX digital feeds. Keep in mind that digital packages--beyond basic--and premiums tend to be more expensive on cable. Moreover, for all the the locals, you are also limited to whatever HDTV STB the cable company provides; many cable companies are still deploying comparatively inferior HD STBs.

Effective November 1, Dish Network will begin leasing HDTV equipment. Rather than buying an 811 for $399 (or possibly $299 in some sort of deal), you'll be able to lease a receiver for $5/mo. This does require a commitment to a year of the TOP50 package ($24.99/mo), however. If you commit to two years of TOP50 programming, you can get a second 811, or a 522 PVR, at no cost beyond the $5/mo; if you don't commit to a second year of programming, the cost is $100.

See this thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?postid=159711&postcount=7) for further information.

More than that. The 811 with Superdish installed will be $599. It's due Nov 1, but it might not be available in quantity until some time later. This assumes there is no commitment to programming.

New customers committing to a year of the TOP50 will probably pay $399, and possibly $299. We'll see.

[Chris Freeland]

Once supplies are up to par on SuperDishes and 811's and since the next DHP promo's are including an 811 and SuperDish option, I would not be surprised to see some kind of Free 811 and SuperDish promo for new subs to come along in the not too distant future, due to cable competition.

[xgrep]

you are also limited to whatever HDTV STB the cable company provides; many cable companies are still deploying comparatively inferior HD STBs.This is a valid criticism, and while it wasn't enough to make me decide differently, it's definitely a factor for more sophisticated consumers. E* has potentially outstanding technology (once the bugs are fixed), and they provide adequate documentation.

The Motorola 5100 HD STB that Comcast is providing has excellent features, but Comcast has disabled most of them. No IR blaster is probably my biggest complaint (it's there, but disabled), but there are other frustrations, as well. This box is really configured at the absolute minimum that allows it to function as an HD STB. And Comcast provides no documentation of any kind specific to the box. I had to look around on the web to find out how to select letterbox vs 16:9 vs pan/scan. These are absolutely essential functions for an HD device, and they don't even tell you they exist, much less how to select them.

But the most important things (for the average consumer) Comcast got right: content offering, easy decision, decent price, and that gorgeous HD picture. Most of us in this forum are more sophisticated in our requirements, and cable will not be a good solution for many of us. But if I look at the mainstream market, I think E* is going to have some problems with being way too complicated in all the things you have to understand to make a decision. Just look at this forum as proof: smart people here are having lengthy discussions about the pros and cons of numerous options. Comcast's approach is: consumers are near-morons. Don't give them too much choice. Make sure what you offer works reasonably well for most of them.

x

[Ken_F]

The Motorola 5100 HD STB that Comcast is providing has excellent features, but Comcast has disabled most of them.Consider yourself lucky. My Comcast sticks us with the old 3100HD, which doesn't output audio for standard channels (in PCM) through the digital output, offers only 1080i upconversion, and has no aspect modes for SD channels. Moreover, the upconversion quality is rather poor for standard channels.

I subscribe to Comcast digital now only because it has my local RSN exclusively in HDTV. The fact that they have InHD as part of the basic tier is nice bonus.