7.1 Investment down the drain

[nontechie_sks]

I think my user name says it all.

I just spent tons of money on getting my home theater built.

Here is what I have:

Marantz SR8500 (I had this already)
Definitive Technology Reference Series Speakers with Supercube 1 as 7.1 - Bought brand new!
Verizon Fios
PS3 Slim Bought brand new!

My challenges:

I just learned that my SR8500 doesn't support HDMI but has DVI up converter so with the PS3 Slim while I can get the HDMI Video, my audio quality is only 5.1 as that's what PS3 Optical Supports.

I have 30 days to figure this out as I can return the PS3, but I am trying to find out if there is a Blueray Player that supports Optical Audio of 7.1 with HDMI for the Video quality that will work? or are there any alternatives with the PS3 to make it work?

Any layman suggestion would be greatly appreciated!

Kind Regards

SKS

[sigma1914]

I'd buy a newer AV stereo for the HDMI switching and to get the TrueHD and DTS-HD MA audio that's on BluRay discs.

[Alebob911]

Like Sigma1914 says, upgrade the AVR and get the full benefit of HDMI. I don't think I have seen any blu-ray that supports any of the new audio formats through optical.

[Tom Robertson]

The problem is that optical doesn't really support 7.1. You have to use HDMI out of the PS3. Other blue-ray players can also support 7.1 cables (ie 8 cables.)

Cheers,
Tom

[spartanstew]

You could probably replace the PS3 with an Oppo and use 7 channel analog outs, but as others have mentioned, you're probably much better off replacing your receiver.

There's a myriad of receiver options for under $300.

[nontechie_sks]

Thanks guys this really helps! So if getting a new AV is the only option, do you have any recommendations?

[FarmerBob]

My two year old LG BD390 supports 7.1, with a great set up section that makes sure you're on track. And now they are up to the BD690. The great thing about my 390 is that it has 7.1 multi-channel out, 8 individual jacks on the back and my Pioneer VSX-D909S has MC in as well as several TOS and COAX. Although my 909 does a great job of 7.1 and "fake" 7.1 separation on 5.1 signals, and great 5.1 on Stereo, until the other day I have yet to see much if any 7.1 material out. That was until I got my daily Blu-ray.com update and there are movies coming out soon that are 7.1. A couple being Thor, Captain America - DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1. With a ton of Spring movies that are half audio, there will many titles with 7.1. Up until now there wasn't much if any fare that was more than 5.1. So 7.1 was a waste. Now you just need the right device for playback. And I would imagine that if you are that concerned about the audio side, a PS3 is not the kind of toy you need.

The Pioneer site has their new line up of gear that will cover all of your needs and some of it is amazing and affordable. After I spent $7k (now about 3k) on one of their TOL models (SC-09TX : 10.2) that I rarely use. They now have models in the $300-700 range that do all that the 7ker did and more. Go take a look.

[Tom Robertson]

One thing to look for right now is the reverse HDMI feed that your TV can use to send audio to your receiver. If your present or next TV tunes to something directly, like an off the air TV signal or Netflix content, with the reverse HDMI (sorry, can't remember the correct name this early in the morning) the TV sends the audio back to the AV receiver so it can do the sound reproduction rather than the 1 inch speakers on the TV.

Cheers,
Tom

[Lord Vader]

Thanks guys this really helps! So if getting a new AV is the only option, do you have any recommendations?

Depends on what you're willing to spend. I purchased an Onkyo 5008 last winter when Newegg had it on one of their phenomenal weekend deals and have been very happy with it since. Of course, it is Onkyo's flagship A/V until the 5009 comes out.

If the 5008 is too pricey, its sister, the 3008, is pretty much the same thing with the exception of the Toroidal transformer and 5 more watts of power.

BTW, one big reason why the 3008/5008 is superb--their ability to upconvert SD into excellent PQ. DirecTV is known for having some very crappy SD channels, but many people don't realize that one's AV unit will determine just how good or how bad an SD channel looks. My AV does a fantastic job in its processing of SD channels, so much so that I have no problem watching them when I must.

[dettxw]

Thanks guys this really helps! So if getting a new AV is the only option, do you have any recommendations?How much do you want to spend? Is 3D important to you?

You can get a good deal on a last-years model Pioneer VSX-1020 (e.g. $346 on Amazon), BUT it doesn't properly handle DirecTV's side-by-side 3D output which is used on some channels. This year's model VSX-1021 has fixed this, but goes for $549.

A Blu-ray player that supports 7.1 out over eight cables is getting pretty rare. I assume that you can still buy them but you might spend the cost of a new receiver unless you pick up an old one on Craigslist or eBay.

Give us some needs, desired specs and price range and we'll give recommendations.

[bobukcat]

I'd agree that it's better to upgrade your AVR than get a BD player with 7.1 discrete outputs, although there are some players that are arguably better than the PS3 strictly as a BD player. These differences are largely negligible in my opinion though unless you want Amazon VOD or something that the PS3 doesn't support.

As for a new AVR there are lots of great choices so it comes down to budget and features. If it's in your budget I highly recommend Pioneer Elite or Denon. If those are too pricey Onkyo, Yamaha and non-Elite Pioneer all have excellent models to choose from. Find a couple that are in your price range with the features you want and check out the owner's forum for those models at avsforum.com.

Good luck with your purchase!

[Kevin F]

How about a Harmon/Kardon or Yamaha receiver?

[nontechie_sks]

Guys really appreciate your inputs. So here is the new news.

I picked up a Samsung HW D7000 with built in Bluray and while it's a great Video Quality, the Crispness and sound pales compared to the Marantz SR8500. So I am back to Square one.

So now I have:

Marantz SR8500 (I had this already)
Definitive Technology Reference Series Speakers with Supercube 1 as 7.1 - Bought brand new!
Verizon Fios

I am plugging the HDMI right into my Projector Ben Q which has 2 HDMI inputs so my FiOS is going straight to my Projector which gives me the HDMI Quality.

I am still lost on how and if I can get 7.1 Audio from my FIOS as I have the HDMI going straight into the projector and Optical Audio into the Marantz.

Of course I am still without a Bluray player as I am lost on figuring this Audio of 7.1 figured out.

Looks more and more like that I am just going to have to get a new Receiver and a Bluray Player.

All agree?

[Lord Vader]

Have you tried a different A/V receiver altogether? I seriously recommend the Onkyo to which I referred above. If not the 5008/5009, then the 3008/3009 would suit you well.

[spartanstew]

I guess I'm not sure what the issue is.

Nothing on FIOS is going to be broadcast in 7.1 anyway. Just put the Marantz on ProLogic IIx and you should be good to go.

[cweiss]

I have a Marantz SR8001 from about 3 or 4 years ago with B&W speakers and Velodyne sub. Sweet, crisp, etc. Switches all HDMI/Componenet, etc.
The newer Marantz SR7005 would be a great replacement to yours with all the newer bells and whistles.
Since you've already spend a bundle on the home theater, this would be a great complent even if pricey.

[Rich]

I recently bought one of these (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-STR-DN1010-7-1-Channel-Receiver-Compatible/dp/B003JC3Z58/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_1) and I think it's the best receiver I've ever had. Puts out very good sound. Has four HDMI outputs and controls, somehow or other, all my components. Has on-screen menus. Wonderful receiver and a great price.

I bought a Pioneer Elite a couple years ago and it was so big it wouldn't fit into my cabinet. Never got to try it, but if you don't have a relatively huge space for your AV receiver, I would stay away from them. Got it at a great price, was terribly disappointed when I got it home and it wouldn't fit.

I can't say enough good things about that Sony. It also upscales very well. You do need banana plugs with it, the typical Sony connections really suck. Putting the banana plugs on it made a huge difference in a receiver that I was already very satisfied with.

Rich

[Lord Vader]

A lot cheaper than the Onkyo I have, that's for sure! :p

[Tom Robertson]

I recently bought one of these (http://www.amazon.com/Sony-STR-DN1010-7-1-Channel-Receiver-Compatible/dp/B003JC3Z58/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_1) and I think it's the best receiver I've ever had. Puts out very good sound. Has four HDMI outputs and controls, somehow or other, all my components. Has on-screen menus. Wonderful receiver and a great price.

I bought a Pioneer Elite a couple years ago and it was so big it wouldn't fit into my cabinet. Never got to try it, but if you don't have a relatively huge space for your AV receiver, I would stay away from them. Got it at a great price, was terribly disappointed when I got it home and it wouldn't fit.

I can't say enough good things about that Sony. It also upscales very well. You do need banana plugs with it, the typical Sony connections really suck. Putting the banana plugs on it made a huge difference in a receiver that I was already very satisfied with.

Rich
It looks like it has a lot of very good features. Audio return, 3d passthru, etc.

Cheers,
Tom

[Lord Vader]

Far more features here (http://www.abt.com/product/56364/Onkyo-TXNR3009.html).

[Rich]

Far more features here (http://www.abt.com/product/56364/Onkyo-TXNR3009.html).

I'd rather spend that much money on a TV. But I don't care about music, so perhaps a real audiophile could justify that price.

Rich

[Tom Robertson]

Far more features here (http://www.abt.com/product/56364/Onkyo-TXNR3009.html).

At 7x the cost, I would expect so. :) (And it looks to deliver very nicely.) :)

Cheers,
Tom

[Lord Vader]

I have the prior model year one and trust me, its audio AND video qualities are superb! It even upscales SD so well that I watch SD now and am not bothered by it.

And you should HEAR the Star Wars Blu-Ray saga on this!

[Rich]

A lot cheaper than the Onkyo I have, that's for sure! :p

I had an Onkyo in that room for a long time and enjoyed it very much. I just have a thing for Sonys, but I never expected it to be as good as it is.

Rich

[Tom Robertson]

I have the prior model year one and trust me, its audio AND video qualities are superb! It even upscales SD so well that I watch SD now and am not bothered by it.

And you should HEAR the Star Wars Blu-Ray saga on this!

:) I do trust you. I've been a fan of Onkyo since the very early 80s, though I've never actually owned one. (Went with NAD.)

My next round of true home theatre would likely include Ohm Walsh speakers and perhaps an Onkyo such as this.

Then when I get really rich... :)

Cheers,
Tom

[lugnutathome]

Guys really appreciate your inputs. So here is the new news.

I picked up a Samsung HW D7000 with built in Bluray and while it's a great Video Quality, the Crispness and sound pales compared to the Marantz SR8500. So I am back to Square one.

So now I have:

Marantz SR8500 (I had this already)
Definitive Technology Reference Series Speakers with Supercube 1 as 7.1 - Bought brand new!
Verizon Fios

I am plugging the HDMI right into my Projector Ben Q which has 2 HDMI inputs so my FiOS is going straight to my Projector which gives me the HDMI Quality.

I am still lost on how and if I can get 7.1 Audio from my FIOS as I have the HDMI going straight into the projector and Optical Audio into the Marantz.

Of course I am still without a Bluray player as I am lost on figuring this Audio of 7.1 figured out.

Looks more and more like that I am just going to have to get a new Receiver and a Bluray Player.

All agree?

The optical/coax spec was never provisioned for the HD codecs and there is no compelling reason for the manufacturers to do so. It does have the bandwidth but. . .

With digital HD picture and sound the HDMI transfer mechanism was created so that copy protection (HDCP) could be implemented to protect the media producers. Otherwise everybody could snag perfectly copied digital copies and nobody would have need to purchase media.

You need a current model AV receiver or one from about 2007 or later that supports HDMI inputs and provides 1 or 2 HDMI outputs for your display devices. Lots of good recommendations for this have been made already.

As was mentioned, your FIOS has a "best" audio of Dolby Digital 5.1 so you might consider running its HDMI direct to the TV/Projector and a coax/optical back to the receiver. This permits watching the TV without having to involve the receiver for spousal/replacement unit use as well as checking settings, setting up DVR recordings, etc.

Your PS3 does almost everything and will continue to be current long after a stand alone player is beyond it's firmware update lifespan. That's the good news.

Bad news is the PS3 uses it's cell processor and software to do video upscaling, and audio processing whereas stand alone players process more of this functionality in specialized components at their hardware layer. As a result the PS3's standard DVD upscaling is a bit murkier (darker) than even the cheap stand alone BR players hardware assisted image. You might barely notice or care. Or like me it may bug you.

For standard Blue Ray playback you would be hard pressed to see any difference however. Add in the games, its media center properties, and its really a best value for most home user's needs.

Hope this helps.

Don "lots of good AVRs out there just calling you to come play" Bolton

[Jhon69]

Guys really appreciate your inputs. So here is the new news.

I picked up a Samsung HW D7000 with built in Bluray and while it's a great Video Quality, the Crispness and sound pales compared to the Marantz SR8500. So I am back to Square one.

So now I have:

Marantz SR8500 (I had this already)
Definitive Technology Reference Series Speakers with Supercube 1 as 7.1 - Bought brand new!
Verizon Fios

I am plugging the HDMI right into my Projector Ben Q which has 2 HDMI inputs so my FiOS is going straight to my Projector which gives me the HDMI Quality.

I am still lost on how and if I can get 7.1 Audio from my FIOS as I have the HDMI going straight into the projector and Optical Audio into the Marantz.

Of course I am still without a Bluray player as I am lost on figuring this Audio of 7.1 figured out.

Looks more and more like that I am just going to have to get a new Receiver and a Bluray Player.

All agree?


As others have suggested I believe also because all I have read on 7.1 sound says it's not optical,it's PCM.

If this is wrong I'm sure the others will correct me ,but like I said it's what I have read up on the subject of 7.1 sound.Good Luck!:)

[lugnutathome]

As others have suggested I believe also because all I have read on 7.1 sound says it's not optical,it's PCM.

If this is wrong I'm sure the others will correct me ,but like I said it's what I have read up on the subject of 7.1 sound.Good Luck!:)

The older PS3s did not have the proper chipset to pass HD audio bitsreams and so decoded and pass down up to 7.1 channels of PCM (LPCM) in the PS3 docs. The newer slim PS3 models have the proper chipset to pass the bitstreams.

In theory they should sound the same since the receiver would decode the bitstream into multi channel PCM. Lots of audio gearheads claim the bitstream decoded at the receiver has better detail.

PCM Pulse Code Modulation was and is the universally adopted method of digital stereo audio transmission between players and receivers and this is passed via optical/coax/HDMI cables.

PCM is a sampling of the stream and not a re-rendering of the full sine. The somewhat floundered SACD spec is the only universally adopted method for that. When you look at specs for PCM you'll see things like bit rate and sampling frequency which regulate how much information is transferred in second, and sampling rate which is how many times the stream is "read".

Optical and Digital coax specs allow for non HD bitstreams. Dolby Digital has "EX" which has a "6.1" output and DTS ES which also has a "6.1" output.

A lot of codecs, speeds, and rates, transfer methods, etc. It takes either a passion for this stuff or an engineer to keep it all straight...

Don "my brain is full, can I leave now?" Bolton

[Jhon69]

The older PS3s did not have the proper chipset to pass HD audio bitsreams and so decoded and pass down up to 7.1 channels of PCM (LPCM) in the PS3 docs. The newer slim PS3 models have the proper chipset to pass the bitstreams.

In theory they should sound the same since the receiver would decode the bitstream into multi channel PCM. Lots of audio gearheads claim the bitstream decoded at the receiver has better detail.

PCM Pulse Code Modulation was and is the universally adopted method of digital stereo audio transmission between players and receivers and this is passed via optical/coax/HDMI cables.

PCM is a sampling of the stream and not a re-rendering of the full sine. The somewhat floundered SACD spec is the only universally adopted method for that. When you look at specs for PCM you'll see things like bit rate and sampling frequency which regulate how much information is transferred in second, and sampling rate which is how many times the stream is "read".

Optical and Digital coax specs allow for non HD bitstreams. Dolby Digital has "EX" which has a "6.1" output and DTS ES which also has a "6.1" output.

A lot of codecs, speeds, and rates, transfer methods, etc. It takes either a passion for this stuff or an engineer to keep it all straight...

Don "my brain is full, can I leave now?" Bolton


Thank You Don,appreciate the explanation.:)

[emoxley]

I'll put my $.02 in now........
I agree with most. A new AVR is the best and cheapest way to go. 7.1 surround is only possible with HDMI and 7.1 analog multi-channel outputs/inputs. Not many blu ray players are even available with those outputs anymore. Oppo has them, and is a very good player, but it's more expensive than AVRs that can do it for you. Of course, if you listen to sacd and/or dvd-audio high res multi-channel music, the Oppo may be worth it to you. It's also an excellent player for those formats. I have the older BD-83 Oppo, and sacd and dvd-audio sound fantastic with it.

The most bang for the buck AVRs are the Onkyos. There's a mid range model for $699.99 that's good:http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR809-Certified-7-2-Channel-Receiver/dp/B00505F01E/ref=sr_1_2?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1318533297&sr=1-2 and there's entry level models that are very nice too ($389.00): http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR609-Channel-Certified-Receiver/dp/B004O0TRD8/ref=sr_1_1?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1318533297&sr=1-1 I'm not a Sony AVR fan, especially after reading posts at Home Theater Forums over the years. Their ES line is pretty decent. They make great tvs and blu ray players, but their lower end AVRs leave a lot to be desired. Of course there's exceptions to every rule, so occasionally, someone will get a good one. Glad for the folks here that got a good one. Denons are very good too, but usually, a little pricier. Their remotes can be a nightmare too.

As mentioned earlier, 7.1 isn't possible over optical or digital coax connections. Set the receiver on Dolby Pro Logic IIx, and enjoy tv in 7.1 simulated surround. I listen to tv that way, and it sounds very good. I listen to dvds and blu rays, the way they are recorded. If they are recorded in 5.1, that's how I listen, even though I'm setup for 7.1 surround. There's more and more movies coming out all the time in 7.1 surround. Two new releases in 7.1 are Thor, and Transformers-Dark of the Moon. The Transformers movie is especially good in 7.1, and especially if you have a good subwoofer.

To me, 7.1 is worth the little extra to have it. Room size doesn't matter as much as most people think either, if you have the speakers calibrated right. As long as speakers are calibrated right, you could almost be in a closet. The Audyssey that Onkyo and Denon uses to auto calibrate, does a very good job. Not familiar with MCACC from Pioneer, and YPAO from Yamaha, but have read that Audyssey is better (from people that's used them all).

I didn't mean to step on toes about Sony AVRs. I know they have their fans. Just passing along info I've learned over the years, from all the time I've spent on HT forums, and personal experiences setting them up for people (I do this on the side to make some extra bucks). I'm not a fan of HTIBs (home theater in a box) either, like the Samsung mentioned earlier. If you feel you must get an HTIB, please get an Onkyo! They have a real receiver with enough inputs for most people, in their set. Where HTIBs really run short, is with their speakers. Again, Onkyo includes some of the better ones in HTIBs. No one can give you good speakers at an HTIB price point. Good speakers will cost more than the most expensive HTIBs, by themselves, but worth it. Afterall, they are the sound of the system.
Good luck with whatever you decide on doing. :)

[spartanstew]

Great post emoxley, I agree with everything you said*





*except I listen to everything in 7.1 (PLIIx on 5.1 tracks)

[Altcool]

I have a SR8500 Its a great receiver. All payTV cable Fios Directv only output 5.1audio hdmi or optical. So a new AVR w/ hdmi wont change that. Where you want HD audio is with blu ray disc. So what you will want to do is buy a blu ray player that can decode and output HD audio through 7.1 analog output. I Have a Pionner BD-51 hooked up this way and it sounds fantastic. As others have said the Oppo is a great option that will set you back 500 bucks.

Yes a new AVR will allow you to spend less on a blu ray player and have hdmi switching but be prepared to pay 1000+ on one that can compete with your Marantz