Not going to buy a 921

[jzoomer]

I am thankful for the reviews that I have been reading here and other places because it cements my decision that there is no way that I am going to waste significant money on what looks like a piece of trash.

For me to spend $1000 for a 921, I have two simple requirements: (1) There has to be HD content and a roadmap for more HD content and (2) the machine must function reliably. Right now, it looks like the content for E* and D* is equal. However, E* has no roadmap that makes sense or is believable anymore. One month you need a superdish but you will have to wait for production; the next month you don’t need a superdish. There is also a complete lack of trust in anything that Charlie says about the roadmap.

The 921 is an albatross. Built on the buggy 721 platform, it demands even more from the core chipset than the 721. Does anyone believe that it will be more reliable than the 721? The product when rolled out has no program guide for HD content. Sure they may add it eventually but you got to wonder what E* has been doing while the product was delayed for over a year. I predict that the 921 will probably be dropped from the E* product line-up in about six months due to constant bugs and returns.

I will wait this product out and see what the HD Tivo looks like. I think their chances are better than E* on coming up with a decent product. Too bad, there isn’t a E*/Tivo HD development.

[Mark Lamutt]

Nothing in your argument justifies calling the 921 a piece of trash, and it isn't. It's not perfect, but it's a damn good receiver right now, and it's going to be a lot better.

But, just as well because that's one more for someone that wants one.

[jzoomer]

Mark, your review had it all.
1. 5 minute reboots due to bugs
2. No HD guide data
3. "Dishwire" disabled

One could argue that it could be fixed in the future but that is a lot of money to invest when you have been burned before. Would you buy a car new from a dealer that broke down before you drove it off the lot or if a part of the engine was missing when delivered?

I think you have lost some of objectivity on this product by agreeing to be a liason for this product.

[GADAWG]

I'm still waiting on them to debug my 721. Its only been eighteen months and its still a peice of crap. Mark why do you think that e* will fix all the problems with the 921 when they couldn't fix the 721?

[tm22721]

I also have a 721 that still exhibits annoying buggy behavior even after a year of software updates. Occasionally, mine still resets itself or locks up and must be rebooted.

So I can understand why the casual consumer who has high expectations would not be satisfied with any of the Dish 'DVR' products to date (or with computers and software in general, for that matter).

[Chris Blount]

I think you have lost some of objectivity on this product by agreeing to be a liason for this product.

I think that's just a little unfair. Mark has brought a valuable service to the online community. He has spent countless hours reviewing the 921 and answering questions in the 921 support forum, private messages and e-mail. In his review, he has listed both the features and bugs of the 921. He didn't hold any information back which has allowed you to form your opinion. How can that show a lack of objectivity? Mark has told you the facts and now you shoot the messenger.

Mark likes his 921. That's fine. Judging from what Mark said in his review, if you feel that the 921 isn't worth the money, don't buy one!

[scottchez]

I think it is all best that we wait a couple of weeks for both the 921 and HD Tivo to come out along with both Dish and Directs new HDTV line up.

This will all be documented at the Jan 8th CES>

We just need to wait and gather that Facts.

Both products are in beta right now.
The HD Tivo has just as many bugs according to there production testers. Both are using the same core chip set for OTA HD.

We just need to wait.

Also by waiting the price wars will start and we should see both for $699 for existing customers and a 1 year contract.

[Capmeister]

Here's what I don't understand... E* tells us about what's coming up but that everything is subject to change because things are in planning stages and such. Everything I've ever heard about what's coming up is prefaced with a comment about how what's being said is what they're looking to do and hope to do. Then, when these things don't happen exactly as described, people get their knickers in a twist. I don't get that.

That said, Mark seems very honest in his review and since I'm probably getting the 921 in March (if the price is right) I appreciate all his hard work.

[Mark Lamutt]

Mark, your review had it all.
1. 5 minute reboots due to bugs
2. No HD guide data
3. "Dishwire" disabled

One could argue that it could be fixed in the future but that is a lot of money to invest when you have been burned before. Would you buy a car new from a dealer that broke down before you drove it off the lot or if a part of the engine was missing when delivered?

I think you have lost some of objectivity on this product by agreeing to be a liason for this product.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

[jzoomer]

I enjoy the information that Mark brings to this forum, too. Those that have bought the 921 for $1000-1300 and are happy, that's great. Enjoy.

Capmeister, E* has been all over the place in executing on an HD roadmap. The information leaked by "inside" sources and what is said on Charlie chats is nothing that I would be willing to invest in at this time. If you are going to buy a 921 now, you should base your decision on what the 921 does now as well as the HD content that is available now. Maybe I am a tightwad (or my knickers are in a twist) but my threshold for buying a 921 hasn't been reached.

In a couple of months we will have a HD Tivo to compare against. D* will be adding four more HD channels in the next couple of months. At that time we can compare equipment and content from the 2 HD providers (with DVRs) and make a choice. I am currently a E* customer; but based on past execution to plan, I would guess that the HD Tivo will be a better choice.

We will wait and see.

[Cyclone]

Some people are not meant for cutting edge technology. It frustrates them too much. They should keep their wants and curiosities in check and remain with well worn and tested technolgies. The 921 is not for them.

[sleepy hollow]

I enjoy the information that Mark brings to this forum, too. Those that have bought the 921 for $1000-1300 and are happy, that's great. Enjoy. Etc...

I also believe it unfair and a bit of a cheap shot to impugne Mark's integrity. He has never claimed to be unbiased or neutral, though I think he clearly demonstrates that he is capable of fair and balanced analysis. After all, he is just giving us an informed "eyewitness" account of the 921 and is not hawking the product to any degree. Ironically however, IMHO, a palpable bias exists with the anti-E* crowd. I will leave that just right there and not go any further. It would be futile.

Having said this, then, a couple of points for consideration:

1) E* and D* are merely distributors of content. HD content is cutting edge and there are still no clear plans from the networks or affilliates on their rollout strategies. So, part of the expressions of dissatisfaction are misplaced in my opinion. Some of you confuse the "novelty and luxury" stage of this technology with the mature commodity stage of analog TV.

2) All of the positive things formerly said about the 921 are now being said about the Tivo DVR. The fact that an item is not yet released AND not yet late in its release seems to affect the quality of the device itself. We know lots more about the 921 (thanks and mega-kudos to Mark) than we know about the Tivo box, but for some reason the Tivo box is getting the nod. This is the classic case of the logical faux pas - "I have no information, therefore I know something." (By way of example unrelated to DBS services, it's usually the featured construct in political conspiracy theories - the Trilateral Commission works in secret, therefore we know they control the world. I know I am oversimplifying, but I think most of you get the point. It's also related to the "grass is greener" theory.)

Anyway, my point is that substance is what counts. What does the 921 do? What facts do we know?

So here goes:

1-The 921 is not released yet, and apparently (but not sure) is being beta tested or something akin to that.
2-It has bugs, but the horrendous one(s) are expected to be gone before official release.
3-We do not yet know when the release will be, but think it might be in a few days to a couple of weeks.
4-It clearly performs the basic advertised functions - tuning and recording HD.
5-We think it will cost 999, but we do not know what that will mean to new or existing subscribers - maybe less.
6-We have no idea what the Tivo HD will have for real beyond reasoning from analogies to existing products or what it will cost for real(but we think it will cost 699). No one has one or has posted experience with one akin to Mark's that I know of (please correct me if I am wrong)
7-All of us are free to not buy a 921 or to continue to dream about either or both the 921 and the Tivo box. The fact is the 921 dreams are far more real than the Tivo dreams at this point, even though the eventual Tivo reality might have some advantages. The biggest disadvantage of those advantages is that they will not be realized for at least a few months, assuming they are real in the first place.
8-If you have E* and want an HD DVR ASAP, you will need to buy a 921. Period. If you have E* and want a Tivo HD DVR, you just cannot do it. All the dreaming or griping in the world will not change this.

Personally I do not see any compelling case for switching to D*. I do not feel antipathy for Mr. Ergen. I do not despise companies or capitalist decision making. I would like to buy an HD DVR ASAP from E* because I believe they will work the best deal for me as a long-standing and valued customer, so I will wait for the official offers, and then buy immediately.

All of this said, the single most relevant fact is that no one is coming to my house to install a 921 today, and yet, I can still accept that and go on with my life as though nothing is seriously wrong.


Mark, keep the writeups coming. They are just great. Whiners, feel free to keep whining, cause I know you will. Capitalism-bashers keep bashing, since I know you will. Others, I really enjoy the substantive discussions and find them most enlightening and informative. They are why I come back to this site. Thanks for all of the contributions. The insubstantial complainers are merely an unfortunate nuisance. I guess that's the American Way.

[jerryyyyy]

IMHO, frankly I have next to no problem with my 721 (after it was replaced) and it has not had to be rebooted since I got thereplacement. I would get a 921 but my wife will not allow me to change my entertainment center to install a big HDTV screen. So I am stuck with what I have unless I pour a Coke down the back of the TV. But, I would not be afraid of getting a 921 even with all the sagas of the 721. Frankly, I think some (a few) people have more problems with their set-ups than others and I do not think we hear from the great mass of people with functioning 721s.

[dbronstein]

If you are going to buy a 921 now, you should base your decision on what the 921 does now as well as the HD content that is available now.

I don't have an HDTV and have no plans to get one any time soon, but I have followed a lot of the discussions about the HD offerings from E*, D* and cable. I think this is the root of most of the complaints - it seems like a lot of people have made decisions based on what receivers/programming will be coming in the future rather than on what is currently available. Then when things don't happen like they thought they would, they get upset.

If you make your decisions based on what might happen in the future, you have no right to complain if/when things don't turn out like you thought they would. I know it's fun to be on the cutting edge, but you have to be willing to accept the risks.

Dennis

[greylar]

I have a 721 and since the last update have had zero problems with it. I suspect that most 721 users are happy with it. Yes i know that this has been re-hashed again and again, but its my opinion that we mostly hear from the people with problems. Its not very often you see posts like "I didn't have any problems this week" what would be the point. On the other hand maybe I should have a weekly post saying that very thing. :lol:

Anyway, I am seriously considering getting the 921 but I'm going to wait until the HD-Tivo comes out and make my decision then.

G

[Chris Blount]

Anyway, I am seriously considering getting the 921 but I'm going to wait until the HD-Tivo comes out and make my decision then.


I agree. The 921 is pretty tempting but I'm also waiting for the HD-Tivo. I have 2 DirecTivos now and really enjoy them. I like some of the features of the 721 but the Tivos are very stable which is a big plus in my book.

[jzoomer]

When I signed up with E* over seven years ago, satellite tv was cutting edge but that didn't mean the products were flakey. The 4000 receiver I bought then still works reliably. I made an informed decision based on what the product did at that time. I also believed that that E*had a good business plan and my up front investment (receivers weren't free) would not be wasted.

Likewise when the time comes, I will probably buy two new HD DVR receivers based on how they perform at the time of purchase. If the Tivo unit meets my requirements and D* has the programming, I will not dream about E* catching up but I will jump ship.

As for my comments on Mark, I believe he is in the same boat as a sportscaster who is a liaison between the fans and the sport stars. It is not an easy job to do and keep access while pleasing the fans.

[Mark Holtz]

I'm in no rush to jump on the HDTV bandwagon.

[jcord51]

Guys, in a nutshell, this is technology! When you are a first time buyer of any product you are the Beta-tester. I bought the 61HS30 Sony HD ready TV, and in less than a year Sony went to the DVI input and added it on to their new TVs'. That cost me way more than the 921, try to get Sony to rectrofit a DVI! BTW if it wasn't for the FCC we probably would not even have HD.

[dbronstein]

I have a 721 and since the last update have had zero problems with it. I suspect that most 721 users are happy with it. Yes i know that this has been re-hashed again and again, but its my opinion that we mostly hear from the people with problems. Its not very often you see posts like "I didn't have any problems this week" what would be the point. On the other hand maybe I should have a weekly post saying that very thing. :lol:

ITA. My 721 has been rock solid since the last update.

Dennis

[Bichon]

In a couple of months we will have a HD Tivo to compare against. D* will be adding four more HD channels in the next couple of months. At that time we can compare equipment and content from the 2 HD providers (with DVRs) and make a choice. I am currently a E* customer; but based on past execution to plan, I would guess that the HD Tivo will be a better choice.

We will wait and see.

DirecTV doesn't have 8PSK. I've had the chance to look at DirecTV's HDTV picture quality since they have started putting two channels on a QPSK transponder, and it just doesn't compare to what we are seeing on Dish. HDnet lost much of its jaw dropping "window effect".

Sorry, but PQ is my #1 critereon for a HD receiver.

[scottchez]

I cant wait for Jan 8th so we will know more info from both Direct TV and Dishnetwork. Facts in writing in a press release would be nice.

[sleepy hollow]

DirecTV doesn't have 8PSK. I've had the chance to look at DirecTV's HDTV picture quality since they have started putting two channels on a QPSK transponder, and it just doesn't compare to what we are seeing on Dish. HDnet lost much of its jaw dropping "window effect".

Sorry, but PQ is my #1 critereon for a HD receiver.


This is very interesting since I was not aware D* had noticeably lower PQ. I have an RCA Scenium big tube HD TV (34" I think). I love the picture quality. Colors even in SD mode are absolutely breathtaking using the old Phillips receiver (4 years old and probably out of date when I got it). With the progressive scan integrated DVD, one gets a decent idea of the quality of HD - Lion King was fabulous! But I really cannot wait to see it for real from the satellite. Knowing that E* has better stuff solidifies my view that E*, while havings some significant problems with the product is aproaching rollout systematically and with due diligence, with the intent of releasing a high quality product - feature debates aside. After all, you can have all the features you want. Without a high quality picture, so what?

[Danbo]

Guys, in a nutshell, this is technology! When you are a first time buyer of any product you are the Beta-tester. I bought the 61HS30 Sony HD ready TV, and in less than a year Sony went to the DVI input and added it on to their new TVs'. That cost me way more than the 921, try to get Sony to rectrofit a DVI! BTW if it wasn't for the FCC we probably would not even have HD.

Ummm... No. If it were half price of what they'd sell it for when it was stable, maybe. But to dish out $1000 to be a beta tester? No. Even when I bought my 721 I was not aware that it was that new, to the point where even now I sometimes am still reminded of beta testing it.

There are arguements either way with this. Beta tester, early adopter, etc... One side, like me, believes when a product is available on the market, and I pay for it, I expect it to function the way it is marketed. And, just like cars, I expect them to have problems at times, hence the warranty. For me, holding back on a 921 isn't about being a beta tester. It's about the lack of knowledge, much less support, from Dish when problems do occur. You're always the FIRST one to report such things. Even if the same issue has been noted on these forums for weeks, you're still the first one that's called to report the problem.

I'll be waiting for HD Tivo myself, to determine if I want to jump ship from Dish for something that may ultimately be more stable, and less cost.

I don't trash those that bought, or are buying the 921 for full price while having issues. That's their choice. Everyone has a choice, either you do or you don't. Me? I choose not to be a beta tester for something that, if it requires testing, shouldn't be on the market.

Just my opinion of course. :p

[jzoomer]

Early adopters usually risk that their product will be obsolete due to changes in the new technology. The example of the Sony television is a good one. At the time the product was released it meet the requirements for what was known about HDTV monitors. I don't think anyone could predict whether 1394, component, or DVI would be the standard connection for a HDTV monitor. However, I assume that the TV did what the manual said it would when you bought it or you took it back.

The 5000 HDTV is another example of this. Early adopters of this receiver now have no way to continue using this unit with newer stations that require 8PSK decoding. However, the product worked reliably with what it was advertised to do.

Maybe some day the 921 will work reliably and actually be able to do HD timer setting through the guide. When that happens, I might rethink my decision.

Regarding PQ, I bought satellite for PQ and have seen it eroded due to the LIL push by both DBS companies. The slight trim in bit rate on D* to fit two channels into one transponder doesn't have me as worried as the 30 additional LIL DMAs they have pledged to put up because of the merger.

[matthinz]

I was very excited about the 921 when I heard about it, even at $1,000. When you figure in the cost of OTA HDTV tuners right now if you don't have one built-in to your HDTV set, in addition to being able to record 2 satellite channels at once and HDTV/SDTV OTA, I feel it is more than worth it; however, between the limited availabilty and the fact that there isn't a very good HD programming selection from Dish yet, I'm sadly going to wait. Off the subject, what do you think Dish and Direct are going to do about HDTV locals? Also, I think we should be praising all of the moderators, including Mark, who have taken the time to contribute to this forum. I thank you for all of the time, help, and information you have given us!