Comparing the 921 and HD Tivo

[Danny R]

From my own comparisons based on limited reviews found here and on other forums, here are the main differences thus far:

Obviously the software differences are numerous. Other places have listed how Tivo differs from other Dish recorders. So I'll summarize those differences with just the following:

Tivo: Name based recording, ratings systems and other basic OS differences
921: Much more limited timer based recording, etc. I believe 921's have multiple editable channel lists however, while Tivo's only have 1. 921 has 30 second skip active by default. Historically Dish is buggier.

Content:
Tivo: DirecTV only and OTA digital
921: Dish Network only and OTA digital

Specifically however I'd like to get into featured differences found in the hardware and HD related material that are of importance in comparing these two machines.

Tuners:
Tivo: 2 sat, 2 OTA tuners. (1 OTA input split internally) Record any 2, while viewing prerecorded 3rd
921: 2 sat, 1 OTA tuners. Record any 2, while viewing prerecorded 3rd.

Outputs:
Tivo: HDMI port, Component, S-video, Composite & audio, optical
921: DVI-I port, Component, S-video, 2 Composite & audios, optical, RF ch 3/4

Other ports:
Tivo: 2 USB 1.1 ports (not yet enabled), phone
921: 1 USB (unknown), phone, firewire ports will NOT be supported

Inputs:
Tivo: 2 Sat, 1 ant
921: 2 Sat, 1 ant, composite video input allows incoming signal to be upconverted for display (not recording)

Pause Buffer:
Tivo: up to 30 minutes pause live TV
921: up to 2 hours pause live TV

Price:
Tivo: $899 MSRP with 6/mo commit. $999 otherwise
921: $999 MSRP

Picture in Picture:
Tivo: no
921: yes

Remotes:
Tivo: IR
921: UHF/IR

Availability:
Tivo: April 2004
921: Currently in limited release

Features available on both:
250GB HD= ~ 30hr HD, 200hr SD capacity (varies depending on compression)
HD and SD outputs can't be active simultaneously
Only 1 video output mode preselected to 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i for all stations. Tivo features single button video mode change however. Dish has SD/HD button, but this currently doesn't change between HD modes.
Both feature various stretch modes/ black grey bars, etc.

----

Please feel free to add anything to this list as you find it out. Lets avoid basic complaints about bugs, etc and stick to certified features.

[Cyclone]

Post a big pic of your avatar? :D I'm thinking Tru Calling Eliza Dushku, but not sure.


Tivo: 2 sat, 2 OTA timers. Record any 2, while viewing 3rd
921: 2 sat, 1 OTA timers. Record any 2, while viewing 3rd.

I thought the 921 would only allow you to view a pre-recorded event while recording on two tuners? So you can't watch a 3rd tuner while two others are recording.

[Danny R]

Yup, you are right on both counts. This month's featured Avatar is Eliza Dushku. You are also right on the DVRs as well. I edited my original topic.

From what I've read, both the 921 and HD Tivo allow you to record 2 streams, while viewing a pre-recorded 3rd. No differences there, except that the Tivo allows you to record 2 OTA at once since it has an addition OTA tuner.

[kstevens]

Yup, you are right on both counts. This month's featured Avatar is Eliza Dushku. You are also right on the DVRs as well. I edited my original topic.

From what I've read, both the 921 and HD Tivo allow you to record 2 streams, while viewing a pre-recorded 3rd. No differences there, except that the Tivo allows you to record 2 OTA at once since it has an addition OTA tuner.

One fact to consider, to add the functionalitly of the firewire port to the tivo will cost about 700 dollars. There is only one low end device that I know of that will convert component into a dv stream (using firewire). It is made by ADS Technologies, so if archive of HD content is a issue for you, then the 921 is comparatively cheaper.

Ken

[Danny R]

Bumping as I've changed info based on the latest info from CES. USB on Tivo is v. 1.1. Price is 899 or 999.

[jgoggan]

The 921 can record SD or HD from the antenna input, correct? Or just HD?

- John...

[Mark Lamutt]

The 921 cannot record SD from the antenna input. I don't believe the HDTivo can either.

[Danny R]

Mark, are you sure about that? I thought the 921 could record any OTA digital content, just not the analog OTA stations.

It doesn't make sense for their tuners to block recording of SD digital content. Not all digital signals are HD. My local Fox affiliate for instance uses one of their substations to transmit 480i ATSC digital content.

[Jerry G]

Mark, are you sure about that? I thought the 921 could record any OTA digital content, just not the analog OTA stations.

It doesn't make sense for their tuners to block recording of SD digital content. Not all digital signals are HD. My local Fox affiliate for instance uses one of their substations to transmit 480i ATSC digital content.

When Mark said "SD", I'm sure he was referring to analog OTA. The 921 can record any OTA ATSC signal, regardless of whether it's HD or SD.

[CompuDude]

How do the respective HD channel lineups compare?

The receiver I'm looking into, the Sony STR-DE995, does both component switching for the DVD and Dish to go into my TV's one component input, and upconversion for SVHS/RCA signals to that same pathway, so the extra component input on the Dish is less important to me.

[CompuDude]

Oh, and what are the respective hard drive size/recording times?

[Mark Lamutt]

Both have 250GB hard drives.

And earlier I was meaning to say the 921 cannot record analog OTA signals. It certainly can record digital OTA SD signals.

[CompuDude]

The pvr comparision chart listed on this site's home page lists 35 hours as the recording time for the DirectTivo system, and 180/25 for the Dish system. So is that no longer accurate, or is the DirectTivo system actually get 35 hours of HD out of the same size drive, but only manages the same 35 hours of SD content compared to 180 on the Dish? I feel like I'm missing something...

[Danny R]

The comparison chart is accurate, but doesn't include the HD Tivo model yet, nor does it include a number of newer Tivo models that also have higher capacity drives.

Both the HD receivers from both Dish and Tivo have a 250GB hard drive. Both should be able to record approximately the same amount of HD and SD material. Between 25 and 30 hours of HD, and 180 and 200 hours of SD. While not an "official" feature by any means, Tivo's have been much more hacker friendly however, often allowing additional hard drives to be added. None of the latest Dish models have been as open to "creative ownership" however.

--

I've updated the comparison above again as well. Apparently the HD Tivo only pauses live TV for 30 minutes (according to this flyer (http://members.cox.net/technconsult/hdtivo/hdtivo.htm)).

[BobMurdoch]

Also, D* is rumored to have much more compression on HD content, so that would explain why they can fit more info on the hard drive than E*.

[CompuDude]

The comparison chart is accurate, but doesn't include the HD Tivo model yet, nor does it include a number of newer Tivo models that also have higher capacity drives.

Got it. My bad. I saw the "HDVR" and assumed that meant the HD (High-Def) model, esp. since the 921 *is* listed. Thanks for the info. Of course, since they're mostly equal there, too, now it makes it that much tougher to choose between them...

[gregleg]

You know, in many ways the E* offering is looking more appealing, for me at least -- RF output and IR remote for use on TV's in another room, Dishwire (if it ever turns on) for saving content to DVD, and a much larger pause buffer. The Tivo software is nice, though. Looks like I need to punt on my decision for a while still...

[rossie]

Gregleg,
What do you plan to use the RF output for?

[Jacob S]

I wouldn't like that 30 minute buffer on the Tivo HD DVR, the two hour buffer on the 921 would be so much better, but the Tivo has Name based recording. Dish Network does not have the no monthly DVR fee advantage but at least I see that they are comparible in price except for the 6 month commitment for a $100 discount. I would think that Dish Network would offer a discount to their customers for the 921 just as they do for the 811 and 510 receivers. Since the demand is so high for the 921 they may not do so for a while until demand drops.

[MagicConch]

Does the 921 have equivalent to Season Pass (tracks by show name, changing times when show changes times, etc.) I heard 921 is timer based, is that true?

[CompuDude]

921 has no season pass or equivalent. It's timer based.

[Danny R]

No PiP on Tivo apparently...

[Bill D]

How about a UHF remote for the Tivo's not sure why they can't atleast offer an option.

[ccwf]

How about a UHF remote for the Tivo's not sure why they can't atleast offer an option. Because TiVo aftermarket companies sell them. Perhaps TiVo wants to coöperate with companies selling TiVo accessories rather than competing against them.

[Bill D]

Because TiVo aftermarket companies sell them. Perhaps TiVo wants to coöperate with companies selling TiVo accessories rather than competing against them.

More info on this would be appreciated. If you are speaking of a radio shack pyramid, I don't consider this an option. I still have to aim the IR remote at something. Do they offer a real UHF option like dish has on most of their high end receivers and all PVR's? This along with the smaller hardrive, which I would have to upgrade has held me back from switching over to D-tivo, also the $5 fee, that I don't mind as much considering I know the software will work.
thanks
Bill

[RAD]

More info on this would be appreciated. If you are speaking of a radio shack pyramid, I don't consider this an option. I still have to aim the IR remote at something. Do they offer a real UHF option like dish has on most of their high end receivers and all PVR's? This along with the smaller hardrive, which I would have to upgrade has held me back from switching over to D-tivo, also the $5 fee, that I don't mind as much considering I know the software will work.
thanks
Bill

I know I miss my UHF remotes on E*, I wish D* would put them on all their higher end boxes, especially the Tivo's. I did get a couple of pyramid repeaters and they really don't work too bad. The remote on the HNS DirevTivo really has a 'kick' to it, as long as I get it in the general direction of the repeater it works fine.

[CompuDude]

You can always pick up those leapfrog IR to UHF thingies that attach to the front of your remote. Otherwise, I think there are a couple UHF universal remotes out there.

Personally, I'm happy with the IR blasting capabilities in my Harmony. Sucker blasts IR right through blankets, even. :-)

-CD

[JM Anthony]

Personally, I'm happy with the IR blasting capabilities in my Harmony. Sucker blasts IR right through blankets, even. :-)

-CD

What do you do? Duck under the covers during the scary scenes!! If that's the case, I hope you never tune in to "Alien" or "Silence of the Lambs" :lol:

[CompuDude]

What do you do? Duck under the covers during the scary scenes!! If that's the case, I hope you never tune in to "Alien" or "Silence of the Lambs" :lol:

LOL

No, but on cold nights it's fun to bundle up (esp. with a partner) and have movie night. If the remote is under the blanket (along with your hands, presumably), it takes UHF or strong IR to still control things... provided, of course, you have a remote you can navigate by touch. :-)

[Jedk1]

Outputs:
Tivo: HDMI port, Component, S-video, Composite & audio, optical
921: DVI-I port, Component, S-video, 2 Composite & audios, optical, RF ch 3/4


My Sony TV has a DVI input. I read in the spec sheet the HDTivo is DVI compatable. HDMI to DVI interface cable available for connection DVI TVs and monitors.

Is that an inferior hookup to the PVR921 DVI-I output?


Thanks,
JedK

[jgoggan]

My understanding is that HDMI is basically a superset of DVI -- it adds audio and some control information. However, I don't think it is "superior" in PQ in any way.

Therefore, using an HDMI->DVI cable, I would assume, would be the same quality as DVI->DVI.

- John...

[BobMurdoch]

HDMI adds copy protection capability, if the studios figure out a way to implement it without a revolt by consumers.

[David_Levin]

I believe HDMI adds some video formats not in the original DVI spec. Not necessarily better, just more. I vaguely remember some of the formats supporting more color (or chroma/luma) depth.

Both DVI and HDMI support HDCP copy protection. I don't think there's any difference there.

Remember, DVI-I is just DVI-D + analog RGB. I don't think HDMI includes RBG (which might effect some people using computer monitors or older CRT projectors).

You can move between HDMI and DVD-D with an adapter or a cable that has one one each side....

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=2030

[jgoggan]

HDMI adds copy protection capability, if the studios figure out a way to implement it without a revolt by consumers.

Hmmm... But isn't there DVI/HDCP and HDMI/HDCP? I thought that they were both supersets supported by either.

My TV has a DVI/HDCP port -- which supports copy protection -- but is not an HDMI port. At least, that is my understanding of it...

- John...

[jgoggan]

Both DVI and HDMI support HDCP copy protection. I don't think there's any difference there.

Doh. I should have read further before replying -- as I see what I replied about has already been answered. I thought that they both supported copy protection -- thanks, David.

- John...

[BrettStah]

The Tivo is coming with a HDMI -> DVI cable.

You may want to edit "OTA timer" to say "OTA tuner", and for the inputs mention that the single Tivo OTA input is split internally for the two OTA tuners.

Also, does the PIP work yet on the 921s? Or is it that it doesn't work with HD, but will work with SD? Don't remember what the restriction is offhand...

[guruka]

...does the PIP work yet on the 921s? Or is it that it doesn't work with HD, but will work with SD? Don't remember what the restriction is offhand...

PIP works fine, but on SD only at this point. .....G

[ccwf]

More info on this would be appreciated. If you are speaking of a radio shack pyramid, … For example, see the RF Remote Converter (http://www.weaknees.com/rf_remote_details.php) from WeaKnees.

[Bill D]

For example, see the RF Remote Converter (http://www.weaknees.com/rf_remote_details.php) from WeaKnees.

Woah this is very cool, saw something like this a few years ago and it turned into vaporware. Does anyone use this, how well does this work.. The UHF remote thing was a big sticking point about switching from dish to Directv.
thanks
Bill

[David_Levin]

Wow, it's amazing what people think of.

[Kagato]

It's actually kind of a common device, but the one at weaknees is overpriced. I did a review of a unit that's about $20 cheaper, there is also a nice package deal with an all for one remote that's rdesigned for PVR/DVR functionality.

http://www.hometheaterescapes.com/?docname=rr_x200.uf

[Bill D]

It's actually kind of a common device, but the one at weaknees is overpriced. I did a review of a unit that's about $20 cheaper, there is also a nice package deal with an all for one remote that's rdesigned for PVR/DVR functionality.

http://www.hometheaterescapes.com/?docname=rr_x200.uf


Seems like the one at weakness also has a IR blaster of some sort, not sure if that is out of the receiver or out of the tivo for something else.

EIther way what frequency do these run on?
What frequ. does dish nets's UHF stuff run on?
thanks
Bill

[Kagato]

They both have little IR blaster dealies that connect to the base. Basically the transmitter replaces a AA batt. It can read the voltage drop as the IR emitter strobes. It converts that to RF, then back to IR at the base. Pretty snazzy, because it doesn't have to know anything about what IR signal you are sending, it just repeats what it reads.

The down side is remotes like the Pronto with large EL screens have too much back ground noise for these devices to read. But they work extremly well with the Tivo as well as universals.

[Tyralak]

More info on this would be appreciated. If you are speaking of a radio shack pyramid, I don't consider this an option. I still have to aim the IR remote at something. Do they offer a real UHF option like dish has on most of their high end receivers and all PVR's? This along with the smaller hardrive, which I would have to upgrade has held me back from switching over to D-tivo, also the $5 fee, that I don't mind as much considering I know the software will work.
thanks
Bill

You'll like this: http://www.bluedo.com/bluedocgi/product.cgi?model=RR-X200

[Bill D]

This is great,(uhf remote adapters) I've been reluctant to switch to Tivo mainly for this reason. It's been two years of no Yankees, and it doesn't look like Dish will ever add YES. I love the website that have the upgraded Tivo's already to buy. I have a 721 so I definitly am already used to the large hardrive. Thanks for the UHF remote info everyone.
Bill

[ccwf]

Yes, thanks for the great info, everyone. I'll add a link to this thread in the TiVo top answers post over in the TiVo Community forum.

[Danny R]

Bumping... minor changes.

[Danny R]

Firewire info added. :(