Dish 921 first impressions

[peterd]

Warning: strong opinions follow. (Flame retardant suit on!)

Well, I won't do a detailed post here. (There's so much info already here at DBSTalk as well as at the SatelliteGuys.US 921 Support Forum (http://www.satelliteguys.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=32).) Instead, I'll boil down my opinion of the 921 to three main points (and supporting discussion of each).

For those who might not read all the way through, let me say right off the bat that the 921 is a work in progress & these observations apply to the 921 today. Hopefully, a few months from now the only limitation which will remain for the 921 is that it only has one OTA tuner (and since it does have internal expansion slots, maybe they can remedy even this!).

Just got my 921 last night. I think the best things I can contribute are as follows:

The 921 is not ready to be your primary receiver.

The notion that a $1000 box is not yet ready to depend on is hard to accept, but it is the current reality. Unless you live alone, don't even think of it. (In the first hour or two using it I could tell the 921 could be a real relationship killer! ;) )

Even if you do live alone, ask yourself what your tolerance is for things screwing up. Be honest - how will you feel if you miss the critical 5 minutes of that show because your 921 rebooted at just the wrong time. (No, I haven't timed it but I don't think that's an exaggeration. First it boots Linux, then it spends some time displaying the lovely "Acquiring Satellite" message and, if you happen to have been watching OTA you can expect to have to go back into the menu to force it to see OTA stations again.)


The 921 is not ready to be your primary receiver.

...Especially if you want to time-shift OTA HD. (If you'll only be watching satellite, you might be ok with a 921 as your primary receiver.) Here's why I think that (unless they pour on the steam with lots of debugging right away) Dish Network will get their butts kicked once the HD DirecTiVo comes out or the cable companies really ramp up the roll out of their HD DVRs:

There are several reasons why people like & use DVRs. The one used most in the ads is "Pause Live TV!" I think this is featured because it is an instant differentiator from VCRs. This is handy, but anyone who's had a DVR for a while will tell you that easy time-shifting (using the program guide to schedule) is the killer feature. And right up there with easy time-shifting is skipping commercials.

Where does that leave the 921? Well, let's start with a few (IMHO reasonable) assumptions. First, the focus of the 921 is HDTV. Given the relatively small HD recording capacity (and relatively high price), that's what you'll mostly want to record). Second, the most time-shifting benefit comes where there is schedule conflict and/or little repeat within the week. Where is this most apparent? Prime-time network TV. HDNET or Discovery HD will air that show again... So will HBO or Showtime (and the commercial skip feature is moot!). What about movies, you ask? Sure, there's some value there. (IMHO, huge value if & when they turn on the firewire ports.) But again, throughout the week/month HBO, SHO & HDNET Movies will have enough airings that you may find a good time to watch without time-shifting. And let's not forget that DVDs can look damn good on many HT setups, providing most of the "start when you want, pause if you want" convenience of the DVR.

So I come back to my contention that (even though a satellite company may not want to hear this), OTA is where the most benefit will come from an HD DBS DVR. And OTA is where the 921 is most buggy! The biggest shortcoming -- no program listings for your local OTA signals. That means setting up timers for OTA is a real pain. And, no program names show up in your recording list. Either keep a "cheat sheet" of what you've scheduled to record handy, or expect to do a lot of back-and-forth to the DVR menu as you try to figure out what you have taped by sampling each show. (There's also the major bug with OTA signals which causes lots of reboots & other problems, but to be fair this is supposed to be a known problem with a fix soon to be downloaded in the L1.43 update.)


The 921 is not ready to be your primary receiver.

If you don't have Dish Network yet, don't get it for the 921 (yet). If you haven't had HDTV yet, don't make the 921 your initiation into HD! If you already have Dish and you have a 6000 already (from what I hear the 811 still has its own set of bugs to shake out), consider the 921.

- If, that is, you have a love for experimenting...

- If you like being the first on your block (heck, in your state! :) ) with a new toy...

- If you like following (and contributing to) the progress of shaking out a new product...

- If you qualify for CBS-HD from Dish ('cause that's the only network HD where you'll be able to just select programs to record from the guide or see any program names in your list of recordings)... Or you can't get ANY HD over-the-air... OR you really, truly, (be honest now) NEVER watch any Prime-time network TV... :)

- And only if you don't consider yourself to be a newbie when it comes to this stuff!

So, if you want all the details as to why I feel this way, go read Mark's review here at DBSTalk and Scott's review at SatelliteGuys. Then read all the posts of bug reports. There's plenty of detail already on the net, but (other than the "Top 10 reasons to wait..." posts) I haven't seen anyone boil it down to this level. Those of you who know me from the AVS Forum know that in nearly 4 years there, I read everything but post sparingly (and rarely opinion or speculation -- mostly facts). I felt this deserved an honest post of my impressions as an early adopter so those who might consider trying to get a 921 today will know that they should be thinking about this seriously and doing plenty of reading first.

Am I happy to have the 921? Hell, yes! :D Am I sorry I paid this much (yes, I paid a few % premium over what it would have cost to get it locally -- if I could have bought it locally!) to be among the first dozen or two to own one? Not at all! Will I now be going to a great deal of trouble to run another cable so I can reconnect my 6000 as my primary receiver -- you bet! :)

[tahoerob]

Well I attempted to record Mask of Zorro on OTA CBS (which is my strongest SS station).
IT WAS TERRIBLE. The whole recording had constant pixellation & lost sound. Totally unwatchable. I believe all of it was due to the 8vsb\921 probelm & NOT my SS from antenna.
Then it locked 8vsb module up.

At this point, recording OTA is NOT an option

[Capmeister]

This has been interesting. I look forward to continuing reviews from real users.

[Mark Lamutt]

That's strange. I've only set up a couple of test recordings from my OTA channels, and they both worked just fine as far as I know. I'll try some more...

There are definitely problems with the 8VSB tuner that will be fixed with the next software version. I have no idea if any of the changes will address this issue, though.

[b5lurker]

That's strange. I've only set up a couple of test recordings from my OTA channels, and they both worked just fine as far as I know.

I agree with Mark, I have setup a couple of different OTA HD recordings and both of them have worked fine. Both Mark and I are in Denver, so we are watching the same channels (except Mark gets ABC which I cannot, long story can't go into that here).

I have been using the 921 as my primary receiver for the last 2 days and would have to say that it performs a lot better then the original DishPlayer 7100 receiver worked when it first came out (which by the way I am still using, believe it or not). I am thrilled to finally have a dual tuner receiver/DVR plus HD! The bugs that I have seen so far have been a minor problem, nothing to make me regret buying it!

If some of the major OTA problems do get fixed with the next release, then this will be the best receiver I have bought from Dish, hands down. And much less buggy then any other receiver too.

Steve

[tahoerob]

I agree with Mark, I have setup a couple of different OTA HD recordings and both of them have worked fine. Both Mark and I are in Denver, so we are watching the same channels (except Mark gets ABC which I cannot, long story can't go into that here).

I have been using the 921 as my primary receiver for the last 2 days and would have to say that it performs a lot better then the original DishPlayer 7100 receiver worked when it first came out (which by the way I am still using, believe it or not). I am thrilled to finally have a dual tuner receiver/DVR plus HD! The bugs that I have seen so far have been a minor problem, nothing to make me regret buying it!

If some of the major OTA problems do get fixed with the next release, then this will be the best receiver I have bought from Dish, hands down. And much less buggy then any other receiver too.

Steve

good to know that it works for some.
I will have to try again.
I will try recording the CBS playoff this afternoon on both CBS HD via sat & CBS OTA!!!

[Mark Lamutt]

That's what I'm planning on doing myself, tahoerob.

[lionsrule]

I know this group is all about being the first and all that, but come on....I think it's pathetic that you/me are willing to accept a product that is too buggy. I currently have an 811 unit, and I really wish I hadn't even bothered. Just like the 921, the 811 can NOT be counted upon as your primary receiver ....and that is not right. What other industry can release a product to the public and for top dollar, not only do we purchase the product, but then when it doesn't even come close to working properly, we don't really complain to much. Imagine the car industry selling a hot new car...let's say a bug convertible and it doesn't "work" right. The top won't go up or down...the car just stalls for no reason. What do we as consumers do in response? We post on message boards telling those who complain about there car that won't work that that's what you signed up for when you bought the first car on the block. That logic is UNACCEPTABLE!!

[DonLandis]

Lionsrule- You are so wrong on your position. How dare you presume that when a responsible adult makes a purchase decision after reading all that has been posted to get in on the 921 today that it is unacceptable. Your 811 may be a different case, but the 921 was well announced by so many that the first ones out the door would not work properly and more bugs would be found as time progresses. Maybe the 811 was sold the same way but I didn't follow that. The 921's forum here is for the purpose of discovery of the bugs so I think your post is what is out of place.

And as a matter of fact: Yes, we are all lab rats and furthermore those who purchased paid for that privledege to be one!

You my friend are in the wrong house! Let the early adopters have fun and let those of us who want to read on in envy that we are not yet a "lab rat." :)

[kstevens]

I know this group is all about being the first and all that, but come on....I think it's pathetic that you/me are willing to accept a product that is too buggy. I currently have an 811 unit, and I really wish I hadn't even bothered. Just like the 921, the 811 can NOT be counted upon as your primary receiver ....and that is not right. What other industry can release a product to the public and for top dollar, not only do we purchase the product, but then when it doesn't even come close to working properly, we don't really complain to much. Imagine the car industry selling a hot new car...let's say a bug convertible and it doesn't "work" right. The top won't go up or down...the car just stalls for no reason. What do we as consumers do in response? We post on message boards telling those who complain about there car that won't work that that's what you signed up for when you bought the first car on the block. That logic is UNACCEPTABLE!!

Completely disagree!! I use the 811 as my primary receiver and I don't have any problems with it that make it un-functional. There are some problems, but they definitely are not show stoppers. The 921 may not be perfect either, but I would gladdly accept one right now bugs and all.


Ken

[tahoerob]

The 921 IS my PRIMARY receiver. I know it will be updated. That is OK.

[Jerry G]

I know this group is all about being the first and all that, but come on....I think it's pathetic that you/me are willing to accept a product that is too buggy. I currently have an 811 unit, and I really wish I hadn't even bothered. Just like the 921, the 811 can NOT be counted upon as your primary receiver ....and that is not right. What other industry can release a product to the public and for top dollar, not only do we purchase the product, but then when it doesn't even come close to working properly, we don't really complain to much.

Once the aspect modes were enabled a week after the 811 shipped, it became my primary receiver. There are some remaining problems, but it's very functional and has some nice features that, even at this stage, make it a more enjoyable receiver to use than the 6000 it replaced.

As soon as the 921 OTA problems are fixed, hopefully this week, it will become my primary receiver. Just having it for the last 36 hours has already allowed me to record and watch some shows I would have otherwise missed. I'm happy to be a beta tester, given the advantages of having this STB that I'd have to miss while I waited for it to perfected before buying it.

[tahoerob]

I know this group is all about being the first and all that, but come on....I think it's pathetic that you/me are willing to accept a product that is too buggy. I currently have an 811 unit, and I really wish I hadn't even bothered. Just like the 921, the 811 can NOT be counted upon as your primary receiver ....and that is not right. What other industry can release a product to the public and for top dollar, not only do we purchase the product, but then when it doesn't even come close to working properly, we don't really complain to much. Imagine the car industry selling a hot new car...let's say a bug convertible and it doesn't "work" right. The top won't go up or down...the car just stalls for no reason. What do we as consumers do in response? We post on message boards telling those who complain about there car that won't work that that's what you signed up for when you bought the first car on the block. That logic is UNACCEPTABLE!!

Well considering that the 6000 I got for $149 is now bidding at $533, this goes a long way to reduce my actual 921 cost!!!!!!!!!!!

[SJ HART]

Why would somebody pay that much for a 6000? Are they crazy?

[lionsrule]

Lionsrule- You are so wrong on your position. How dare you presume that when a responsible adult makes a purchase decision after reading all that has been posted to get in on the 921 today that it is unacceptable. Your 811 may be a different case, but the 921 was well announced by so many that the first ones out the door would not work properly and more bugs would be found as time progresses. Maybe the 811 was sold the same way but I didn't follow that. The 921's forum here is for the purpose of discovery of the bugs so I think your post is what is out of place.

And as a matter of fact: Yes, we are all lab rats and furthermore those who purchased paid for that privledege to be one!

You my friend are in the wrong house! Let the early adopters have fun and let those of us who want to read on in envy that we are not yet a "lab rat." :)

It is my experience that people who strongly defend a position do so to convince themselves that a situation can not possibly be true. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am simply surprised that this one industry seems to get a pass by being able to sell products, as you put it "we are all well aware don't work properly"....yet. I was a beta tester for xbox live and I knew going in that there were bugs....microsoft didn't charge me anything for it. They certainly didn't charge me $1,000 for something that didn't work as advertised. Please show me somewhere on dishnetworks website where it states that the 921 unit will not work properly until further notice?? All I remember reading was that it was a 2 tuner hidef dvr. Again, my only real point was to ask what other industry or product gets away with selling a product (not a beta mind you!) that simply, knowingly, doesn't work?

P.S.....Please don't wine about this not being the "proper" place for this. Message boards are like real life....sometimes we all get off topic. Unless none of you have had a conversation in the real world, I expect that you know that you don't respond to someones opinion by stating that you can't talk about this because there is a special limit to subject matter....so there!

[lionsrule]

Once the aspect modes were enabled a week after the 811 shipped, it became my primary receiver. There are some remaining problems, but it's very functional and has some nice features that, even at this stage, make it a more enjoyable receiver to use than the 6000 it replaced.

As soon as the 921 OTA problems are fixed, hopefully this week, it will become my primary receiver. Just having it for the last 36 hours has already allowed me to record and watch some shows I would have otherwise missed. I'm happy to be a beta tester, given the advantages of having this STB that I'd have to miss while I waited for it to perfected before buying it.

Jerry,

I agree that fixing the aspect ratio changed the viability of using the 811 as a primary. I still find myself using my 510 (which is on the same tv). The pic quality (except for hd) is better for sd stuff via my 510. I just wish that dish hadn't released the 811 until the A.R. worked properly.

[tahoerob]

Another failed OTA attempt:
http://www.dbstalk.com//showpost.php?p=181304&postcount=10

[kstevens]

It is my experience that people who strongly defend a position do so to convince themselves that a situation can not possibly be true. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I am simply surprised that this one industry seems to get a pass by being able to sell products, as you put it "we are all well aware don't work properly"....yet. I was a beta tester for xbox live and I knew going in that there were bugs....microsoft didn't charge me anything for it. They certainly didn't charge me $1,000 for something that didn't work as advertised. Please show me somewhere on dishnetworks website where it states that the 921 unit will not work properly until further notice?? All I remember reading was that it was a 2 tuner hidef dvr. Again, my only real point was to ask what other industry or product gets away with selling a product (not a beta mind you!) that simply, knowingly, doesn't work?

P.S.....Please don't wine about this not being the "proper" place for this. Message boards are like real life....sometimes we all get off topic. Unless none of you have had a conversation in the real world, I expect that you know that you don't respond to someones opinion by stating that you can't talk about this because there is a special limit to subject matter....so there!


There be trolls here.....



Ken

[austin]

I currently have the old DISH PVR and Dish 500 Satellite Dish and pay for the local channels; and want to upgrade to the Dish 921 so I can get HD and keep the recording features. Where do I buy it? Is it backordered? What is expected time? Will I need an additional Satellite to get the channels? What is OTA?

[tahoerob]

I currently have the old DISH PVR and Dish 500 Satellite Dish and pay for the local channels; and want to upgrade to the Dish 921 so I can get HD and keep the recording features. Where do I buy it? Is it backordered? What is expected time? Will I need an additional Satellite to get the channels? What is OTA?

dude, you are a newbie!!! :lol:
First, contact your area retailers so see who even knows what a 921 is & is willing to place you on a waiting list. It may take this next month to really rollout stock. It is a new issue & not fully distributed yet.
Second, no second satellite needed. All the major channels are on 110 degree sat, except CBS HD (only 30% of subs are eligible but do ask) & Dish Demo channel. You would need a 61.5 degree Dish added for these 2. Some people need this second dish for secondary local channels (indies, spanish, etc)
What you do need is TWO lines run from the switch at the Dish 500 to the site of the 921 since it has 2 tuners.
Third, OTA mean "Over The Air" or "Off Air" digital tv. THese are your local TV stations that are broadcasting Digital signals as well as regular analog. With the digital signals, you can view all the network programs that are shown in HDTV. What you need is an attic, rooftop, or (if close by) TV top antenna to catch UHF signals. The good old antenna that may be on your roof now would work!!! This line connects to a seperate tuner. (the one causing headaches now!)

[tahoerob]

Component vs DVI
I compared Component to DVI on the 921:

First of all the 921 WILL output to both simultaneously. However, at times when switching back & forth between video outputs on my TV, the component would be blank.

Well hands down, the component WAS BETTER than the DVI.
PQ was better by far especially with color. The DVI color was more faded & washed out looking. Not what I expected.
Also, the component might have been a little sharper, but it could have been related to the color issue.
It was the same on all channels: HD, SD, OTA

[Jerry G]

Component vs DVI
I compared Component to DVI on the 921:

First of all the 921 WILL output to both simultaneously. However, at times when switching back & forth between video outputs on my TV, the component would be blank.



Are you using a DVI-D or DVI-I cable?

Did you lose the component picture with 1080, 720 or 480p output?

[DonLandis]

Rob- You have to recalibrate your color saturation, brightness, and contrast for each input according to a test pattern like SMPTE bars that contain PLUGE. If you didn't, then that may be the reason why the color was washed.

DVI should be a superior picture with respect to very fine color detail and edge definition as compared to Component which uses not only reduced chroma resolution but also has the disadvantage of digital to analog conversion and then YUV encoding.

Look for edge, detail, and color definition. Brightmness and contrast is variable and doesn't indicate one is superior to the other. Remember that in order of quality it is from best to worse:

DVI
RGBHV
Component
Y/C
CVBS (Composite)
RF modulated composite

On a good monitor you should be able to see a slight difference between the Component and RGBHV signals but a much bigger differernce between RGBHV and DVI.




PS- This is the second attempt at answering as ther first one didn't show up. This has happened several times since the change. Don't understand why.

[tahoerob]

Rob- You have to recalibrate your color saturation, brightness, and contrast for each input according to a test pattern like SMPTE bars that contain PLUGE. If you didn't, then that may be the reason why the color was washed.

DVI should be a superior picture with respect to very fine color detail and edge definition as compared to Component which uses not only reduced chroma resolution but also has the disadvantage of digital to analog conversion and then YUV encoding.

Look for edge, detail, and color definition. Brightmness and contrast is variable and doesn't indicate one is superior to the other. Remember that in order of quality it is from best to worse:

DVI
RGBHV
Component
Y/C
CVBS (Composite)
RF modulated composite

On a good monitor you should be able to see a slight difference between the Component and RGBHV signals but a much bigger differernce between RGBHV and DVI.




PS- This is the second attempt at answering as ther first one didn't show up. This has happened several times since the change. Don't understand why.

I guess I need to record the test pattern show on HDNet!!!!

[jake hill]

I guess I need to record the test pattern show on HDNet!!!!

What does an RGBHV cable look like? 15 pins?

Does the 921 have an RGBHV output?

[DonLandis]

Jake- If you buy a special adapter cable that plugs into the DVI-I port it will have at the other end a DB15 cable jack that you can connect your RGBHV monitor to. I've seen these with both DB15 female and a female DVI-D at one end with a DVI-I male at the receiver side. Cost about $30 as I recall.

RGBHV may also take the form of 5 BNC connectors but I have not yet seen a DVI-I to 5 BNC's. They probably do exist, however.

[tahoerob]

Does the 921 have an RGBHV output?

no

[Jerry G]

no

You're incorrect. Look at Don's response above your post. With the correct breakout cable, the DVI-I connector does contain RGB.

[Matt Stevens]

No new HD receiver is going to have an RGB output due to stupid Hollywood hysteria over the analog hole.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Carlos Mariona]

Hi, I am very interested in the 921, but I'm reading through all the posts in this thread make sure I'm not premature on racing out to find 1 this week. Am I to understand unless I subscribe to Dish's Everything package I will be charged a fee of ? to be able to use the DVR feature on the 921.

[Mark Lamutt]

No $4.98 fee if you are subbed to AEP. $4.98 if you are subbed to anything less than that.

[peterd]

This other thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=22726) makes me think that this thread needs to be bumped to where prospective 921 owners will find it more easily!

[fjerina]

OTA recording: Scott of SatelliteGuys.com gave this suggestion and it WORKS (at least for me). Simply setup a timer for an OTA station with the start and stop times and then turn off the receiver with the active channel being displayed being FROM THE SATELLITE AND NOT ONE OF THE OTA CHANNELS. I tried this last night and it works great. Nice workaround. Hopefully this will be fixed in the next release of the software which is hopefully soon.

[peterd]

OTA recording: Scott of SatelliteGuys.com gave this suggestion and it WORKS (at least for me). [...]Here's how I cope (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3243663#post3243663).

[rhare]

For those who might not read all the way through, let me say right off the bat that the 921 is a work in progress & these observations apply to the 921 today. Hopefully, a few months from now the only limitation which will remain for the 921 is that it only has one OTA tuner (and since it does have internal expansion slots, maybe they can remedy even this!).


This is depressing, I was thinking about buying a 921, since Dish has been claiming that the long delays have been so that they could get the bugs out of it unlike the 721 release. The 721 is a love/hate relationship, the 721 is wonderful when it works, but I still have at least 2 crashes a week, and yes they are always at a bad moment so you loose 5 minutes of a show.

Also, I'm on the third 721, first one lasted about 10 months before hard drive failure, second one was shipped right as the really buggy 1.15 software release occured, and it had lots of sound problems, back it went only to find the 3rd one had the same problems. Apparently dish doesn't even keep very good track of the bugs and shipped a receiver needlessly. Right now the 721 has hanging problems if you happen to try and use the DVR functions when viewing a Dolby Digital program, I've also had lots of problems with the timer functionality, claims its recording but the red light isn't on, and it doesn't show up on the PVR menu, and you can't record anything else, so you have to reset the thing.

Unfortunately, I found out a very interesting fact at CES, there are more Dish DVRs in circulation than any other DVR, including Tivo (second), and Replay (3rd).

Sigh...... Wish they would open source the thing so that the bugs would get fixed!

Rob

[peterd]

Thanks to a spontaneous 921 reboot, I missed Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction! :D

Just had to force a couple of reboots since the 921 would not playback anything properly (stuttering freezes of varying duration).
Every recording is gone!

I rest my case.

[peterd]

OK, to be fair I must report the latest development...

After a couple of pull-the-plug reboots, all the missing recordings & timers are back !? :confused:

Good thing I didn't forget: "It's only TV."

[peterd]

921 locked up again...

This time, no amount of rebooting is making the recordings & timers re-appear! :new_cussi

[Frank]

So where do you find the updates about the DVR 921 or any other DVR for that matter? You mentioned L1.43, where did you find this inforamtion?

[Slordak]

So where do you find the updates about the DVR 921 or any other DVR for that matter? You mentioned L1.43, where did you find this inforamtion?

You would want to check the Official 921 forum here. For specific information about L1.45, see this thread:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=22807