Why is there never as many D* viewers as E* viewers ?

[Bowtieman]

I have noticed there is always far less Direct viewers and posters than their is Dish viewers and posters in ever forum I have looked at.

They also seem to have far fewer complaints than the Dish posters. Maybe that answers my own question.

Any other thoughts on the matter...

[boba]

DISH equipment is plagued with software problems so a lot of their customers post the problems. Directv with a couple million more customers has equipment that isn't absolutely problem free but has far fewer problems, so less complaining. The surprising thing is DISH customers continue to buy more defective equipment and continue bitching, instead of learning their lesson.

[BobMurdoch]

Yes, D*'s equipment tends to be more solid, but it also tends to be "under-engineered" (I stole that term from a review of the XBox vs. the PS2 which criticized the XBox for being over-engineered (too expensive with too many upscale components)) in that the hard drives for the PVRs tend to be smaller, and they tend to skew to the average consumer more, while most of us here tend to come from the technological intelligentsia who get off on tinkering with our toys (and complaining about them much more as well).

The unusual situation is that the D* fans who DO show up often are obsessed with trashing E* (kind of like the Dems and George W...... they just CAN'T change the subject.... for or against W. they NEED to find something else to talk about to win over the centrists who are not THAT intent on getting rid of him).

[SlicerMDM]

Two big reasons:

1) E* hardware seems to have more problems than D* hardware. This isn't E* bashing, it's a plain and simple fact. Look at all the issues with the 811, 921, 721, SuperDish, etc... More problems means more people complaining, asking questions about how to fix them, etc. Obviously, E* jumping the gun on releasing this stuff fuels the fire where these problems are concerned.

2) E* has more leaks than D*, lending to lots of rumors, speculation, excitement, disappointment, etc.

[buzzdalf]

Having been at DirecTV sub from 96-99 and then Dish from 99-03 and now back with DirecTV I can confirm Echostar has more hardware problems that DirecTV (but then I had DP's).
I think DirecTV subs are just watching TV ;)

[BobJ2004]

Almost ALL the Direct TV customers now have Direct Tivos.

They all hang out in

http://www.tivocommunity.com

There is one for the dual Tuner SD Tivo and the new 4 Tuner HD TiVo.

Most do not even know of this board.

[Un-nick12]

Almost ALL the Direct TV customers now have Direct Tivos.

They all hang out in

http://www.tivocommunity.com

There is one for the dual Tuner SD Tivo and the new 4 Tuner HD TiVo.

Most do not even know of this board. if this is true why has E* sold more dvrs then D*

[Chris Walker]

Almost ALL the Direct TV customers now have Direct Tivos.

They all hang out in

http://www.tivocommunity.com
.

Almost ALL? There's less than 500K of the boxes in use and some of those are in the same home, it's hardly "all". And like the poster said about, Direct tends to focus on the "joe-six pack cable crowd" with their boxes, and E* has always appealed to the more technically minded as well as those from the C-Band days. That's why there are so many technical chats on E*, they have a large base of subs that are interested in that type of thing.

[beejaycee]

The unusual situation is that the D* fans who DO show up often are obsessed with trashing E*
:nono: Bob, I don't think that statement is fair or accurate. I am a D* fan and I seldom, if ever, 'trash' E*. :D I have noticed that many of the D* fans who show up and speak harshly about E* are ex-E* subscribers so at least their criticisms have some basis in fact even if they are fueled by emotion. FWIW, I am an E* fan also, though I think Charlie plays it awfully fast and close with sometimes bad results.

I think your comment about the "technological intelligentsia" is more accurate.

[beejaycee]

Almost ALL? There's less than 500K of the boxes in use and some of those are in the same home, it's hardly "all".
I'm curious where you got your 500k figure.

[RAD]

Yes, D*'s equipment tends to be more solid, but it also tends to be "under-engineered" (I stole that term from a review of the XBox vs. the PS2 which criticized the XBox for being over-engineered (too expensive with too many upscale components)) in that the hard drives for the PVRs tend to be smaller, and they tend to skew to the average consumer more, while most of us here tend to come from the technological intelligentsia who get off on tinkering with our toys (and complaining about them much more as well).

Bob, just because a box has a smaller hard drive I don't think that you can say that it was underengineeder. DirecTivo's come in both 35 and 105 hour versions, so according to you Dish underengineers their PVR since it does only 100 hours. Frankly, I don't look at a PVR as a device for archiving video, for our family it's main purpose is day to day timeshifting. With that in mind the 35 hour in the standard Tivo is just fine for our requirements.

Also, DirecTivo is a more open box then Dish's products, we can add larger and/or additional harddrives, where as you can't with Dish. Dish does have the edge on a couple of things, caller ID display and RF remotes that I wish D* would put on their boxes, but I can live without them.

[Crazy 1]

Thats a simple question to answer, since I'm a D* sub. We are usually busy watching tv, while the E* subs (used to be one) are busy trying to find out how to fix their receiver, or trying to find out when the next software download is coming to fix a bug. :)

[JM Anthony]

Thats a simple question to answer, since I'm a D* sub. We are usually busy watching tv, while the E* subs (used to be one) are busy trying to find out how to fix their receiver, or trying to find out when the next software download is coming to fix a bug. :)

Some of us E* subscribers can multi-task - laptop with WiFi and a comfortable couch in front of the TV does wonders. D* subs have a tough time chewing gum and rubbin' their tummys at the same time. I rarely have problems with my 508, just wish some 921's would hit the pipeline!!

[Crazy 1]

There's hope for you too John, Some us D* subs were once E* subs. And got tired of E*'s empty promises and seen the light. Got a lot more time to rub my tummy since I don't have to reset my receiver every day, and more money to buy bubble gum since I left E*. :D

[DCSholtis]

Plus the HD DirectDVR will be out on March 30th and will actually WORK correct upon their release. Hows that for a concept, a receiver through the pipeline thats already been tested..:D

[SSW_Exposure]

Just have one question:

Does E* pay it's subs for beta testing their equipment (or at-least give you free programing to help them with the bugssss);
or do you have to pay to be a guinea pig?

[juan ellitinez]

Just have one question:

Does E* pay it's subs for beta testing their equipment (or at-least give you free programing to help them with the bugssss);
or do you have to pay to be a guinea pig?
:lol: thats why they give new subs free equipment

[BobMurdoch]

:nono: Bob, I don't think that statement is fair or accurate. I am a D* fan and I seldom, if ever, 'trash' E*. :D I have noticed that many of the D* fans who show up and speak harshly about E* are ex-E* subscribers so at least their criticisms have some basis in fact even if they are fueled by emotion. FWIW, I am an E* fan also, though I think Charlie plays it awfully fast and close with sometimes bad results.

I think your comment about the "technological intelligentsia" is more accurate.

I didn't mean to offend ALL D* subscribers while making my admittedly sweeping generalization, but it seems like every time there is an issue we've got a dozen people (often hiding under the "guest" label) slinging mud or rehashing the same arguments over and over again. Unfortuantely, I'm a counterpuncher and I fall for the bait too easily.

Then again, I'm a Mets fan in Yankee country, so I'm a little oversensitive to the #2 guy getting ridiculed all of the time. Yes, E* has numerous issues, but they have many strengths as well, and I just want to balance out the debate in case some newbies are lurking looking for info on which way to go.

[BobMurdoch]

Bob, just because a box has a smaller hard drive I don't think that you can say that it was underengineeder. DirecTivo's come in both 35 and 105 hour versions, so according to you Dish underengineers their PVR since it does only 100 hours. Frankly, I don't look at a PVR as a device for archiving video, for our family it's main purpose is day to day timeshifting. With that in mind the 35 hour in the standard Tivo is just fine for our requirements.

Also, DirecTivo is a more open box then Dish's products, we can add larger and/or additional harddrives, where as you can't with Dish. Dish does have the edge on a couple of things, caller ID display and RF remotes that I wish D* would put on their boxes, but I can live without them.

Maybe I'm a heavy user (I'm REALLY spoiled, because my 250GB hard drive in my 921 is 60% full all the time (Whoa, only 60 hours left? better start watching some shows and make room)..... ;)

I agree that my "underengineered" word was a poor one, but I couldn't think of a better shorthand way of saying that E*s hard drives tend to be bigger and they add several other capabilities as well that often complicate the plumbing enough to ensure that there will ALWAYS be bugs to deal with....

[Chris Blount]

Hey Bob, if only Dish receivers had season pass. *bait* :lol:

Seriously though, DirecTV users have problems with their receivers just not as many and the problems usually are not serious.

Also, like Slicer MDM stated, Dish leaks info that cause a lot of talk in the forums.

I have to admit, I almost miss fiddling with my Dish receiver to keep it running correctly. I find myself digging into the DirecTivo menus just to find something wrong but I never do. It's kind of boring. :D

[Steve Mehs]

I never understood or bought the argument, real techies/high end users tend to have x instead of the other guys. But since have/had both, I guess I’m both a high end customer and low end customer depending on your individual opinion :D For most everyone I know, myself included DBS providers were chosen based on programming, new subscriber specials and other circumstances other then how much you love technology. DirecTV and Dish both have there advantages and disadvantages, depending on what you and your family want. We got Dish on a whim, been unsatisfied with the service for a while then switched. Frankly there’s more to talk about when it comes to Dish with gossip, leaks, chats, and software bugs, and you can put a face to the company. While with DirecTV, it’s kind of boring, but I’ll take boring with a virtually bug free receiver over exciting and on the verge of tossing a 508 out the window. While I wouldn't go as far as Chris and say I remotely miss the 508, I have nothing to say when it comes to the TiVo, because it just works :)

[Phil T]

Like Chris and Steve said, DirecTivos are kind of boring, they just work.

My wife thinks I miss Dish. She keeps asking my why I keep checking the signal strength and system info screen for no reason. :)

I guess I can still go to the box in the closet and pull the smart card out of my Dishplayer 7100 when ever I want to. :D

[BobMurdoch]

Hey Bob, if only Dish receivers had season pass. *bait* :lol:

Seriously though, DirecTV users have problems with their receivers just not as many and the problems usually are not serious.

Also, like Slicer MDM stated, Dish leaks info that cause a lot of talk in the forums.

I have to admit, I almost miss fiddling with my Dish receiver to keep it running correctly. I find myself digging into the DirecTivo menus just to find something wrong but I never do. It's kind of boring. :D

Remember.....

I'm a Mets fan and I was raised Catholic. I CRAVE misery.

Only Red Sox and Cubs fans have it worse than us....... (OK, maybe White Sox too)

[stonecold]

I will break this down real simple

E* has a unfied receiver base ( minus the dishplayer 7x00) Which allows it to control piracy more effectly.

D* does not but is working towards it. As most people know on D* that is relativley simple and in most major cities there is a person around every block selling hacked HU cards for D*

E* hardware design seems to be better. Dish Home blows away any DTV Interactive pos I have seen. Also I have never had a slow guide on even the oldest of E* recivers. aka 1000, 2200 2700. Unlike D* which I have seen had some super slow a$$ guides in the older boxes.

E* seems Just get the job done. D* doesnt People dont post here as they are busy yelling at people on the phone about how there card not working or there reciver stop working. I have seen some nasty bugs in recivers and the worst thing about it is that most recivers that are pre 4th gen use proms instead of epproms. Which means you are stuck with the bugs until you buy a new reciver. Even the oldest reciever the model 1000 is updateable.


I rather put up with bugs in my products that can be fix than to have bugs that cant or wont be fix. I have a friend with a 420 with problems... DTV said that the bugs are known bugs but they can not control RCA or force them to make the update. The 420 has had a couple of updates and rca still have not fixed the problems.


put it simply I would have E any day over D.

[BobMurdoch]

whoa! Where have YOU been? Glad to see it isn't all wine and roses on the D* side of the street the way the E* haters like to paint it.....

[Mike500]

(kind of like the Dems and George W...... they just CAN'T change the subject.... for or against W. they NEED to find something else to talk about to win over the centrists who are not THAT intent on getting rid of him).

Sounds strange for a conservative, who also quotes an ultra-Massachusetts liberal Unitarian of his time, like Henry David Thoreau.

[Tyralak]

I have noticed there is always far less Direct viewers and posters than their is Dish viewers and posters in ever forum I have looked at.

They also seem to have far fewer complaints than the Dish posters. Maybe that answers my own question.

Any other thoughts on the matter...

Yep. You pretty much said it. D* has very standardized equipment, and very solid architecture. Fewer problems.

[BobMurdoch]

Sounds strange for a conservative, who also quotes an ultra-Massachusetts liberal Unitarian of his time, like Henry David Thoreau.
Nah, I'm no conservative..... I want to keep the Dems out of my wallet and the Republicans out of my bedroom. I'm conservative on the economy (cut the budget deficit NOW), socially liberal (let the gays marry of they want), a hawk on the war (having those *******s kill a friend of mine in the Twin Towers will do that -- I went from a dove to a nuke the SOBs back to the stone age mentality in one day), but I'm a firm believer in liberty and I feel that we have surrendered to many freedoms in exchange for "security" (Franklin's warning comes to mind).

Sooooo, as you can imagine I'm deeply conflicted. Meanwhile, there are no more fireballs over Manhattan with the "warmonger" at the helm, so I'm satisfied for the time being. Having Libya tripping all over themselves to play nice was a nice surprise and hopefully a portent of things to come.....

[Tyralak]

Nah, I'm no conservative..... I want to keep the Dems out of my wallet and the Republicans out of my bedroom. I'm conservative on the economy (cut the budget deficit NOW), socially liberal (let the gays marry of they want), a hawk on the war (having those *******s kill a friend of mine in the Twin Towers will do that -- I went from a dove to a nuke the SOBs back to the stone age mentality in one day), but I'm a firm believer in liberty and I feel that we have surrendered to many freedoms in exchange for "security" (Franklin's warning comes to mind).

Sooooo, as you can imagine I'm deeply conflicted. Meanwhile, there are no more fireballs over Manhattan with the "warmonger" at the helm, so I'm satisfied for the time being. Having Libya tripping all over themselves to play nice was a nice surprise and hopefully a portent of things to come.....

That's not conflicted at all. You sound like a Jefferson style Libertarian to me.

[BobMurdoch]

Hmmm. Not a BAD role model. Heck of a writer. (We'll just look past that little ole' slave problem for now).

[Tyralak]

Hmmm. Not a BAD role model. Heck of a writer. (We'll just look past that little ole' slave problem for now).

It's actually a little known fact (more likely, glossed over fact) that he was extremly opposed to slavery. Most of the Founding Fathers were. Jefferson didn't make the world he was born into. He did his best to help change it, but he knew it would take time to get rid of such a deeply entrenched institution. It was hard enough to get everyone to agree on a Constitution. If he would have insisted on removing slavery at that time, it would have never had happened.

[Wayne]

I'm an E* sub. I think my 508 is great and I've never had any problems with it. I first came to DBStalk.com to see when my locals were coming to Dish. I got advanced notice and called E* the day they were officially available. I think D* subs will seek this forum out once D* starts adding more locals.

I keep coming back to read what new channels and features are up next. I also enjoy the speculation/recaps of the Charlie Chats. I like learning the "techno" lingo regarding DBS and HDTV. Finally, I like Tony's Echostar Knowledge Base link and the way he has all the programming info listed (it's better than Dish's website).

Thanks DBSTalk.com!

[Chris Blount]

E* hardware design seems to be better. Dish Home blows away any DTV Interactive pos I have seen. Also I have never had a slow guide on even the oldest of E* recivers. aka 1000, 2200 2700. Unlike D* which I have seen had some super slow a$$ guides in the older boxes.


I can see your point of view but I have a satellite receiver to watch TV, not to play interactive games, pay the bills and look up the weather.

Also, apparently you never saw the guide for the Dishplayer. That one is pretty darn slow.

[stonecold]

Chris:

You never read any of my other post. I am the proud owner of 4 dps.

A. Hate to burst your bubble but while it has the Echostar Name on the reciver the hardware pcb layout are all microsoft even the software. Echostar didnt even have there people fab it. Microsoft out sourced it and then sold the units to Echostar.

Actually The slowness in he guide is directly related to the harddrives in them. The DP had an old Cheap seagate drive in them 10 and 17 gigs depending on wieth or not you got a 7100 or a 7200. They had a whole whopping 512k chache on them. Upgrading now to a standard drive which has 2 megs cache on it makes a large difference guide is much speeder. It near flawless with mine as I have WD 120gig SE drives in there the SE drives are the now Rare 8 meg Cache editions and I dont experience the brief 1 sec black outs any more or some of the other problems dp owners have. Some where fix by the hd upgrade other via the software.

Again orginal dp = MS so I am not even going to compare it.

Also note that the same slow guide I have experiece in UTV boxes as they are the polished finished version of the Dishplayer. But amazing share alot of the same bugs.

[Chris Blount]

Hate to burst your bubble but while it has the Echostar Name on the reciver the hardware pcb layout are all microsoft even the software. Echostar didnt even have there people fab it. Microsoft out sourced it and then sold the units to Echostar.
Doesn't matter. They were still E* receivers. Because they have slow guides isn't Microsoft's fault. It was E*'s for contracting them.


Actually The slowness in he guide is directly related to the harddrives in them. The DP had an old Cheap seagate drive in them 10 and 17 gigs depending on wieth or not you got a 7100 or a 7200. They had a whole whopping 512k chache on them. Upgrading now to a standard drive which has 2 megs cache on it makes a large difference guide is much speeder. It near flawless with mine as I have WD 120gig SE drives in there the SE drives are the now Rare 8 meg Cache editions and I dont experience the brief 1 sec black outs any more or some of the other problems dp owners have. Some where fix by the hd upgrade other via the software.

Disagree. I upgrade both of my DP's to big hard drives just like you did and only saw a marginal speed increase.

Obviously this argument will go nowhere since you like E* so much. I had E* for 5 years and still use a 508 to get the superstations but most of my main programming is now with D*. I like having E* and will continue to enjoy the service.

I try to remain middle of the road as far as E* & D*. Like Steve said, both have their advantages. Right now though, there is no denying that D* has an edge on how well their DVR's function. No question about that.

Since you seem to have never had D* or their PVR's, we will have to agree to disagree.

[reddice]

We currently have Dish and have nothing but problems with their crappy hardware. Switches are junk and we have to pay a fortune to get ones that work. Looks like I'll be switching to Directv because unlike Dish they make better equipment.

[Mark Holtz]

(usual suggestion deleted)

[Tyralak]

(usual suggestion deleted)

I don't mean to be dense, but what do you mean by that?

[Mark Holtz]

I don't mean to be dense, but what do you mean by that?Because I sound like a broken record. Get a DirecTiVo receiver, you won't regret it, also get a triple LNB dish, it only costs $20 more at install time, but is cheaper than replacing it later on for HDTV.

Chris gave his two cents.

:welcome_s to DBSTalk.

[stonecold]

Chris once again you speak of which you know nothing about.

I do own Sub to the NFL Sunday Ticket only package with DTV - that I got as I use to be on the nfls short list of people who still watch sunday ticket on cband. ( Called Cband dish was working and out side the house I bought bougth the recivers from the people moving out subed to nfl sunday ticket. So anyway now I am on a nfl sunday ticket only sub for DTV. But as a former hacker and script writer I seen all of DTV Have the largest collection of recivers than most people will ever see.
UTV - more polished version of the DP still shares alot of DP bugs - Damn you Microsoft.
Dtivo Series One- great box one of the few dtv boxes I enjoy.
Dtivo series 2 - nothing all that special that hacks to the system of series one did not slove like the mdeia browser etc.

But to put it simple if E* way of doing things is not the way to go why is D* trying to be like E* with there newer recivers and pushing uniform interior hw design. Why because DTV is going to start attacking on two fronts the Card front and the reciver front. I think that E* should do more card attacks. as just a cweek or so ago E* attacked code of a private dealer that is big to say that looped card to the point that they are currently unloopable. They need to do more things like this.

I also think that member here need to know there hardware better.

[Bowtieman]

UTV - more polished version of the DP still shares alot of DP bugs - Damn you Microsoft.
Dtivo Series One- great box one of the few dtv boxes I enjoy.
Dtivo series 2 - nothing all that special that hacks to the system of series one did not slove like the mdeia browser etc.


I can't speak with authority about all the different receivers that Dish has but I can speak of the two that I had when I was with Dish. They were just the basic receivers 2700 and 3900. I had no problems with the 2700 but the 3900 failed me a month or so before I switched to Direct.

I was going to stick it out with Dish. I waited and I waited eagerly for every Charlie chat and when the 811 was coming to the subs. Each month was another month and price soared with each delay. The months rolled on and the promises that were the month before were never fulfilled.

One day I looked in on a D* forum and they were chatting about the Tivo and how good it was to time shift with the dual tuner. They gave me the impression that it was bullet proof and that was all it took for me after reading about all the problems with the Dish DVR's from dish subs.

Three weeks later I had a Tivo, Samsung HD receiver and a 3lnb dish. So far so goood with all the boxes. I'm glad that I switched to D* at this point.

[jdspencer]

Wow, this thread went all over the place!

I have been a DirecTV subscriber ever since I got an employee deal back in '96. My company was owned by Hughes at the time. So I have little experience with Dish receivers, until recently. I got fed up with DirecTV not offering distant networks for WB and UPN, so I bought a Dish 301 receiver to be used strictly for the Superstations. It is connected to my Phase III oval triple LNB dish through a 4x8 multiswitch using a 22khz signal generator to force the output to the 119 satellite where the Superstations reside. Anyway, I find the 301 interface to be just horrible and the guide is only about 2+ days out.

[stonecold]

Jdspencer then do your self a favor and never look backwards towars anything lower than 3800aka3900upgraded. Dish guide therei s just plain ugly. Personally I like hte Blue and White guide deal it looked alot better than the guide on those PowerTV OS run SA Digital Cable Boxes that Comcrap uses here in SW Florida. Before anyone gets on my cases saying comcast doesnot use SA Boxes but Motorollas or General Instrments. Comcast depeding on location seem to swap between the SA Digital boxes and there digital broadcast equipment and the other seem to use the GI/Motorolla standard. Also The guide on the motorolla/GI are arelly not all that different from the SA boxes still think they suck.

I think that E* is trying to go for a common look to there recivers. anything newer than a 3800 has the blue guide (except the 6000) Then apparently in at least there DVRs they have gone to a stlye that looks alot like the DP 7x00 interface. I have not seen a 811 has dish stuck with a blue and white guide there or is it more like the old dp guide?

Personally over all I dont care if people sub to D* or E* as long if they are not supporting there local cable company Especially if the cable company is comcast or Time warner.

[beejaycee]

Chris once again you speak of which you know nothing about.
Did Chris catch you on a bad day or are you this rude to everyone?

[Strong]

Did Chris catch you on a bad day or are you this rude to everyone?
Also, plese chekc yur splleing, gmarrer and. Punctuation. I am go crazy. trying t maek sesne of what you right.

[stonecold]

No Chris just thinks he knows it all.