Whats y'alls honest opinion about the 921 right now?

[willy]

Hey gang,

Of all you "beta testers" out there... who is generally happy with the 921? Is it stable enough for a primary reciever yet? Is it close? Are the current issues "tolerable"?

Trying to get a feel for the progress in the last couple of months, and re-evaluate getting one.

Thanks!

[paulcdavis]

It has great potential, Eldon seems to be quite responsive in trying to try to fix the bugs, but it is still a work in progress. It is my primary (only) receiver, and I can live with the bugs for now, but also I don't consider it to be the end of the world if something does not record.

[Redster]

Not a beta tester but a proud owner. I would happily say yes,, it is worth it. Even with the added cost of an attic antenna and running the 2nd line from the dish to the receiver ( in Feb ). The quality of the locals in HD and the capability to record them plus record a sat channel and then watch another sat channel, most definetly worth it. There are still issues , my biggest is no guide information for local HD but hey the wife is so happy with seeing her soap in HD, the granddaughter loves some of the Discovery HD programs and that makes life easier on me. Now if I can just get her to let me get a programmable remote so I dont have to bounce around between the dvd player, tv and dish. It is also our primary,, the 501 is now gathering dust along with an unopened 301 .

[sleepy hollow]

It is absolutely the coolest piece of electronic gear we have ever had. My sons keeps marveling at how we NEVER get anything this leading edge. We are very eager to see the NCAA b-ball tourney in HD. It is so cool.

Ok, as for specifics, we have never missed a recording. We have no problem with OTA guide info. Just go to sat channels, see what you want to watch and key in "004" to go to NBC, for example. tha is exactly 2 keystrokes more than otherwise. If you want to record OTA HD, no problem, select the SAT version of the event and then edit it to change the channel. Takes far less time than a manul VCR setup - that is what we had been doing before we got the 921. So, to us it is miles better.

My wife would no more read a manual or even think about troubleshooting a problem. So, when she uses any electronic device, if it gives her any problems she will shut it off and "run away" from it. This has NEVER happened with the 921. She thinks the box is very nice and is very pleased that we have it. She tells visitors that they HAVE to see HD and shows it off to them. We both love the HD old movies - movies shot with HD cameras or whatever they do. It's like being the the movie theater in, say 1961, or whenever the movie was made.

I cannot understand the griping about it on the site. I have no idea why poeple say it is not ready for prime time. They have PCs that crash, cell phones that do not "get through", and all manner of gadgets on which failures are tolerated, but for some reason watching TV is not good enough unless it is exactly 100% perfect. When I think back to CATV and analog OTA TV with ghosting and snow and so many much more serious imperfections, I am amazed at what is now delivered into my family room using that little round grey dish.

Ok, here is my single gripe - not enough HD programming. It is addicting and you hate to have to settle for SD. But that is not E*'s fault. It is the content providers' faults. So, all I can say is hurry up and convert it all, please.

If you can afford one, get it.

[willy]

I hear ya sleepy-- Ive got an 811 now (and 508 we need a...921 replacement for!). My wife is an EXTREME tecno-phobe also. She said initially "Oh, HD isnt *that* big of a difference." when we first got our 811. Now when folks are over I hear her in the other room watching Disc-HD saying, "And look, look, look- you can see the tiny bubbles on the fish's head!" :-D I was delighted when I heard that.


I can afford it- but wanted to see the *general* opinion here. Folks are griping left and right about the 811 like its gonna set thier house on fire- meanwhile I have not a single major complaint. Sure, its got bugs--- but none that are "showstoppers" IMHO.

One thing Im iffy on is the rumor that production was halted to fix a hardware issue- makes me want to wait a tad longer.

[jsanders]

L1.42 was a bit hard to deal with, all crashes and such. Since L1.46 I've been fairly happy. I set my timers which were a pain in the side, but, for the most part, I only had to set them once.

It is great to watch 3 hours of TV inside of two hours by skipping commercials. I have time to do other things. I'm not as much of a couch potato as before. I like recording movies. It is great.

The 921 switches aspect modes really quick when compared with the 6000. It is painless to switch modes, although, it can be a pain to watch some of them at present time.

The 921 also helps preserve my TV. I skip over the commercials now, so, there is very little time when there are black bars on my set. Less burn in in the middle of the screen! Woo hoo!

[BroncoFan7]

I have had maybe 1 or 2 reboots since L146/L147 compared to 2 or 3 a day.

Glad I snagged one when I could from E-bay! It's worth the extra 200 bucks I paid over waiting another "x" months.

My only complaint is the fan or disk is noisy (louder than a pc) but since it's in my family room it's bearable at night. I also read that a later software update may shut that fan or disk off when not in use. (like my 501 does).

[BarryO]

At this point I can't recommend it. It's a great unit. Unfortunately, at the current time, it is subject to an irrecoverable failure during a firmware upgrade. When this occurs, your unit will become useless. It's been the experience of myself and some others that Dish will not supply you wish a replacement unit in a timely manner, if ever. You'll therefore be out $1000.

Unless or until Dish changes their practices in this regard, I consider the purchase of a 921 too risky.

[tahoerob]

I would recommend it.
You get a dual tuner DVR satellite receiver (721) + an HD\OTA receiver (6000) all in ONE box. It works better than some of the big reports would lead you to believe.
After L147, I have not yet (knock on anything close to wood!) a reboot. Prior to this I had only a handful.
My SD satellite viewing is actual BETTER PQ on the 921 than the 501.
Get one.

[cnacht]

I think it works great. I don't use it for OTA, so maybe that is why I have had no problems. Since there is not much HD content out there, it is great to record HD to view later. The only things I am waiting for are the fix for stretch mode in 1080i and more discrete codes. I use it for my primary receiver and have only had 2 spont. reboots since getting it at the beginning of January.

[Mark Lamutt]

Moving to Dish DVR forum.

[sleepy hollow]

At this point I can't recommend it. It's a great unit. Unfortunately, at the current time, it is subject to an irrecoverable failure during a firmware upgrade. When this occurs, your unit will become useless. It's been the experience of myself and some others that Dish will not supply you wish a replacement unit in a timely manner, if ever. You'll therefore be out $1000.

Unless or until Dish changes their practices in this regard, I consider the purchase of a 921 too risky.

What firmware upgrade are you talking about? There have been no firmware upgrades that I am aware of. If there have been, I know of no connectrion between that an failed units. As for bad Dish service, I suggest you email the blue line people (see the 921 support thread) and see if they can help you. Have you tried that? After all, your problem is worse than blue lines.

If that does not work, call the executive offices of Echostar and politely ask for assistance. If you are persistent and polite, I bet you get attention. Do not give up. You are not out anything yet. You just need to keep calling until someone takes an interest. I have never had a bad experience with their cust service like you describe. Maybe I have been lucky. But I am convinced you will be taken care of if you keep at it. I know you should not have to do so, but in the end you want your 921 fixed, so forget what should be and deal with what is and be persistent and firm and tell them you are frustrated and how much you like the machine and how disappointed you are and how you just want someone to help you, please. You get the picture. (but always stay polite).

[BobMurdoch]

You'll pry the 921 out of my cold, dead fingers........

I watched recordings of HD programs on New Orleans, Asteroids hitting the earth, Odyssey 5 (which I missed when it was on Showtime), The L Word, The Sopranos, etc.

Watched the Super Bowl (and Janet's breast) in HD (OH, and I could rewind for that WTF just happened moment...) in HD and will add a rooftop antenna this spring or summer to add the Philly stations that my wife wants but Congress says I can't have (We're jammed in New York whether we like it or not)

Most of the folks with the OTA channels have born the brunt of the problems, mine has only had a couple of reboots and two missed timers.

[BarryO]

What firmware upgrade are you talking about? There have been no firmware upgrades that I am aware of.

This was the L146 upgrade several weeks ago. I don't know whether that is considered "software" or "firmware", but it doesn't really matter, does it?

If there have been, I know of no connectrion between that an failed units. As for bad Dish service, I suggest you email the blue line people (see the 921 support thread) and see if they can help you. Have you tried that? After all, your problem is worse than blue lines.

I have talked to the "blue line people". It was their opinion that it was caused by an interrupted and corrupted download. They told me to contact the CSR's for a replacement.

If that does not work, call the executive offices of Echostar and politely ask for assistance. If you are persistent and polite, I bet you get attention. Do not give up. You are not out anything yet. You just need to keep calling until someone takes an interest. I have never had a bad experience with their cust service like you describe. Maybe I have been lucky. But I am convinced you will be taken care of if you keep at it. I know you should not have to do so, but in the end you want your 921 fixed, so forget what should be and deal with what is and be persistent and firm and tell them you are frustrated and how much you like the machine and how disappointed you are and how you just want someone to help you, please. You get the picture. (but always stay polite).

I have never had any problems with Dish prior to this incident. I have sent the following to ceo@echstar.com, with no response so far. I believe it is polite but firm:

I’m having a Customer Service issue with regards to my new DVR-921 that I need your urgent assistance with.

In short, my 921 stopped working several weeks ago, immediately after the L146 software upgrade download. I have not yet received a replacement unit, despite being told several times by your Customer Service people that I would be receiving one.

I called Dish Customer Service after the unit failed, and they confirmed that a failed software update had resulted in an unrecoverable corruption of the software on my unit. The Customer Service Agent stated that a replacement would be shipped to me via 2-day air.


I week later, I had not received a replacement 921. I called Dish, and I was told that the replacement unit HAD NEVER SHIPPED. Customer Service was unable to give reason for this.

A Customer Service supervisor claimed one would be shipped that day. She refused to ship it next-day air. She couldn't give me a tracking number, but claimed she would call with one next day with one.

She did not call the next day. When I called, Customer Service could not give me a tracking number at the time, but said it was scheduled for delivery Tuesday. March 9.

I subsequently left on business out of town, but I checked home yesterday, and did NOT receive a replacement unit.

At this point, I am very concerned. The 921 has already been sent once to your Product Elevation people, to fix the “blue line” hardware bug. Now it has been non-functional for several weeks. I have only owned it a short time, but for about half that period, it has been unavailable to me.

I have been told several times by your Customer Service people that I would receive a replacement for the failed unit, but this has not proven to be the case so far. It almost appears that Dish is unwilling, or unable, to honor the 1-year warranty on the unit.

I urgently ask to intervene in this matter. I request to immediately be informed of the tracking number for the shipment of the replacement, so that I may confirm from a non-Dish source that the replacement is on the way.

I would like to be the owner of a functioning DVR-921, and to continue to be a Dish subscriber. However, further demonstrations of lack of willingness on the part of Dish Network to honor its obligations may force me to dispute the purchase charge on the 921 with my credit card company. As is stands now, I have paid >$1000 for a unit that does not function as promised, and it is unknown to me when I will be able to get any value from this purchase.

[SimpleSimon]

Couldn't live without my 921. Mine is at least as stable as my 501, and before that my DishPlayer. Yeah, the 921 still needs work - especially I guess in OTA (which doesn't concern me - can't get any OTA here), and like most software-based devices, it has more bugs than it should. IMHO, that's due to insufficient testing - most likely a weak test suite. I base my opinion on many years in the software industry - it's the single biggest reason software fails. The second biggest is design flaws, and the 921 just might have a few of those, too. The reboots due to hitting buttons too fast is the most obvious of those.

[FarNorth]

What firmware upgrade are you talking about? There have been no firmware upgrades that I am aware of. If there have been, I know of no connectrion between that an failed units. As for bad Dish service, I suggest you email the blue line people (see the 921 support thread) and see if they can help you. Have you tried that? After all, your problem is worse than blue lines.

If that does not work, call the executive offices of Echostar and politely ask for assistance. If you are persistent and polite, I bet you get attention. Do not give up. You are not out anything yet. You just need to keep calling until someone takes an interest. I have never had a bad experience with their cust service like you describe. Maybe I have been lucky. But I am convinced you will be taken care of if you keep at it. I know you should not have to do so, but in the end you want your 921 fixed, so forget what should be and deal with what is and be persistent and firm and tell them you are frustrated and how much you like the machine and how disappointed you are and how you just want someone to help you, please. You get the picture. (but always stay polite).

I have had a similar experience. My 921 locked solid, won't reboot and nobody at Dish can tell me when - or if - it will be replaced and they have not offered to take it back and repair it. I've called and talked with a dozen CSRs and none have ever called me back, I've had no response to my email and basically all I'm told is, "we'll ship you one when we get one but we don't know when that will be."

[Frank Z]

Love it!!! Sure it's got a few bugs, but none that I'd call deal-breakers.
The dual tuners are a life saver.

[sleepy hollow]

I have had a similar experience. My 921 locked solid, won't reboot and nobody at Dish can tell me when - or if - it will be replaced and they have not offered to take it back and repair it. I've called and talked with a dozen CSRs and none have ever called me back, I've had no response to my email and basically all I'm told is, "we'll ship you one when we get one but we don't know when that will be."

Have you tried beyond the CSRs? How about the blue line folks? I would never suggest doing anything untoward, but what if a unit with a blue line problem showed up at the blue line repair facility and would not boot? Don't you think they would have to get it to boot in order to fix the blue line probem? And then if they booted it and found no problem, what do you think they would do? Do you think they would call you and accuse you of sending them a defective unit? Do I have to really spell it out for you folks? Use your noodle. [I am assuming you still have the unit that has a problem.]

[FarNorth]

Yes, I've gone up the ladder to the executive offices and various supervisors and nobody can give me an answer. I, too, am a little surprised they haven't offered to fix it since it is clearly a software issue. How hard can it be to rewrite the program on the system board or hard drive, especially since it will have to be done, anyway?

[willy]

Yes, I've gone up the ladder to the executive offices and various supervisors and nobody can give me an answer. I, too, am a little surprised they haven't offered to fix it since it is clearly a software issue. How hard can it be to rewrite the program on the system board or hard drive, especially since it will have to be done, anyway?
Software programming is not that easy by any means. Im not making excuses for E*, but in many cases the most trivial application from the user perspective involves much more complicated engineering effort. Even a "closed" system like STB's are extremely complicated under the hood from a SW and HW perspective.

[Mike123abc]

It sounds like the 921 is getting a hardware change. They probably have isolated a lot of the flakiness down to a hardware problem and are getting a new batch of cards or something and testing them before starting 921 delivery up again. That would explain the sudden lack of ANY 921s, and the inability to repair the ones that are broken at this time. They probably have the new hardware in testing already and I bet they recall all the 921s in the field when they are finished with this hardware change.

Of course the above is just speculation, but given the outward signs we see it makes the most sense.

[BarryO]

It sounds like the 921 is getting a hardware change. They probably have isolated a lot of the flakiness down to a hardware problem and are getting a new batch of cards or something and testing them before starting 921 delivery up again. That would explain the sudden lack of ANY 921s, and the inability to repair the ones that are broken at this time. They probably have the new hardware in testing already and I bet they recall all the 921s in the field when they are finished with this hardware change.

Of course the above is just speculation, but given the outward signs we see it makes the most sense.

Fine! Then why don't they just tell us that? Sometimes, unavoidable difficulties arise, don't they? 'most everyone understands that.

Instead, they've instructed their CSR's to lie: tell the customer whenever they called that "woops, we were mistaken when you called a few days ago and we told you that it shipped that day and you'll have it in 3 days. But it shipped today and you should have it in -- 3 days". Of course, the "3 days" never comes.

If they would just fess up and be honest about it, it would save everyone alot of aggravation, and wouldn't breed contempt of them in their customers.

[Slordak]

I don't know if that's the case or not. I would think the hardware changes they are making might be tweaks (to remove blue line issues) or minor upgrades (to add 480i support to the HD outputs), rather than some sort of massive overhaul with complete recall. Of course, I could be wrong, so who knows; I suppose it's all speculation at this point.

Anyhow, if the software could get fixed up soon, it would make things much nicer to use. Right now, the combination of frequent lock-ups, OTA tuning issues for channels mapped to anything outside the range 2-69, and the remote "TV" button issue are causing quite some frustration in my household.

[Mike123abc]

If it was just software issues I suspect we would see the 921 floodgates open. By now they should know the root of most problems, and if they thought everything was able to be fixed in software, there would be no need to hold up production. Remember from the pictures of the inside of the box, it is all pretty modular. It could just be a simple card swap.

[pjboud]

I cant wait to get one. I need the dual tuners. I'm sick of not being able to change channels while my wife records Angel everyday at 5 pm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dreamer]

I am waiting until it is a few weeks or a month after the "Official" re-release of the 921's.

Funny thing is that I have one sitting in my spare room in a box right now. Who ever thought that while there are so many people searching for these units that I would have one sitting and collecting dust... :grin:

[cocokola]

my $.02

thanks for the thread & info everyone. Late last year, I kept waiting for the 921, but I got the 6000 for $125 in November. I wanted something for Christmas (It didn't look like there would be many 921 available anyway) and it was cheaper than buying an OTA tuner. I figured I'd wait a two months before looking again

~ four months later, I decided to take a look to see how the 921 has faired- with updates etc. It looks like the firmware is stable enough to purchase one, but a lack of devices & talk of a hardware update have convinced me to wait a little longer.

I can say a large number of folks in the HD club my area gave up and switched to cable HD.. with a DVR unit to be available soon that trend may continue. Hopefully the availability issue (either created due to fixed needed, or simple supply/demand) will be resolved sooner than later.

[tgerrish]

Now that my 921 has been repaired for the blue line problem, I am somewhat happy with it. I am willing to live with the software bugs and occasional reboots, since having the ability to record HD and record one show while watching another live more than compensates.

[FarNorth]

I bought a 921. It worked fine for a month, failed and now Dish tells me they won't replace it or fix it, at least not right now. I have no idea when that will change.

[sleepy hollow]

This was the L146 upgrade several weeks ago. I don't know whether that is considered "software" or "firmware", but it doesn't really matter, does it?



I have talked to the "blue line people". It was their opinion that it was caused by an interrupted and corrupted download. They told me to contact the CSR's for a replacement.



I have never had any problems with Dish prior to this incident. I have sent the following to ceo@echstar.com, with no response so far. I believe it is polite but firm:

I’m having a Customer Service issue with regards to my new DVR-921 that I need your urgent assistance with.

Etc...




Well, I stand corrected. Sounds like you are doing everything you can. The only thing I might suggest at this point is to ship it the Blue line folks at the service escalation place and stop payment on the CC. That is going somewhat "nuclear", but then they would have the unit and you would have your money - sort of.

Beyond that, it's a matter of how much time to invest in trying to get some attention. Based on the other posts since late last week, I suspect we are getting very close to a solution, and seriously doubt Dish will leave you stranded. I would be willing to bet they are doing much as Mike123 suggests.

In the meantime, my predictions are not much consolation when the box is down and your billfold is thinner.

Let us know what happens ultimately. Hope it is fixed this week. Sounds like another download coming this week or next.

Maybe your system encountered that bad condition that caused the L147 quick download last week.

PS. The reason I keyed on the firmware vs software issue is I was not aware they were changing firmware in the downloads. That would not make sense or would have other implications. I was checking to see if you knew something we did not know. There is actually quite a difference. But, not worth further discussion at this point. Never mind...

[Slordak]

Firmware is software. The only distinction is that "firmware" often refers to software which is stored in a chip, such as ROM or Flash. In some cases, the software in these chips cannot be modified; in other cases, the software can be updated in place (i.e. without removing the chip). For a typical embedded device, when we talk about "updating the firmware" or "updating the software", we are refering to the exact same task.

On a non-PVR/DVR Dish Network receiver, software updates in the satellite stream re-program the TSOP Flash chip(s) in the receiver. Essentially, the receiver goes into a special programming mode where it erases the existing Flash contents and replaces them with the new data received from the satellite. This is an all or nothing operation; other than the boot block, the entire flash contents are purged and replaced with new firmware.

On a PVR/DVR, I don't know if the software update in the stream is updating software on the disk, in Flash, or both. On the 921, it's quite possible that the receiver downloads a full new Flash image to the hard disk, and then re-flashes the Flash at a later point in time (i.e. when the receiver is off and idle). It may be that some portion of the software is in Flash, and some portion is on disk, and the two work together to provide the full user experience.

[P Smith]

I would say PVR721 and DVR921 are different category in that terminology. Both used DiskOperationSystem (DOS), ie DishLinux. And flash chips is not required modification at all whan new software come to download.

All others, include such new DP322/DP522 what run embedded Linux, still required update flash chip for each new version of Firmware/Software.