View Full Version : Dish: Untruthful about baseball blackouts
obrienaj
04-07-04, 08:16 PM
Dish Network continues to be untruthful to customers about some baseball blackouts.
2 years ago I subscribed to the Fox Sports package as I was in the home market for the Yankees, Mets, Pirates, and Indians. Despite being in the home market for those teams all , except the Pirates, were always blacked out. No matter how I asked Dish questions about this, they always responded as though I was a dumb customer who did not understanding how blackouts usually work. They insisted that "we have no control over Blackouts, the rules are set by MLB".
At that time, I asked who I could talk to in order to review if they were mistaken, and perhaps my zip code was incorrectly programmed for blackouts. They had no suggestions. Some months later I found this article in the Buffalo News.
"Inquiring minds who subscribe to DISH network want to know: Why can't they
get the blacked out Mets and Indians baseball games on regional networks,
Fox New York and Fox Ohio, when DirecTV subscribers get them? A spokesman
for DISH acknowledged that the satellite service, unlike DirecTV, hasn't
made a deal with the owner of those regional networks. The spokesman added
that DISH is negotiating for the rights. If you can't wait, you better trade
dishes"
Two year later Dish introduced MLB EXtra Innings (or "ESPN Baseball" as Laura the Customer Service Rep at Dish Executive Office insisted it was called !). I thought perhaps the previously blacked-out teams MIGHT be now available. No, no such luck, they are IN my home market.
So, I asked several reps...if those teams are IN my market I should be able to get them if they are carried on a FOX RSA, right? The three CSR's I chatted with all insisted I did not understand baseball blackouts and it related to MLB rules, nothing to do with Dish. They were at a loss when I asked why Direct TV customers on the same street were not blacked out :)
Today I received email from someone that claims what the Buffalo News reported is not unique to the Buffalo area. He claims several regions have different contracts with Fox, that Dish was "too cheap" to sign the same deals as Direct TV.
I don't mind Dish refusing to sign expensive deals/contracts. I DO mind them not being truthful about why they do not offer certain products. :mad:
Who, higher up the food chain, can I pursue this matter with? The CSR at Exceutive Office said that they cannot give names of people I could talk to.
i guess the reinforces the general rule that if sports is your #1 prioity, go with DirecTV.
obrienaj
04-07-04, 09:12 PM
Sports are not my number one priority, hence I stay with Dish. I do however want to get their CSRs to be more truthfull.
If your neighbor with Directv is getting the games and your not. Then its simple. Dish Network has not gotten a contractual agreement for that channel. Just like Dish Network has contracts with channels that Directv doesnt have.
Dish seems to signing cheap contracts left and right. So why do they need to continue to increase the price of the packages every year? With the money they are saving by signing these cheap contracts; they should have enough to get the YES network and keep our rates down...right?
The price increases that you speak of are minimal increases. They highest increase this year was for 3 dollars. With all the providers around, Dish had the lowest price increases. But customers only see the negative things involved with their service. (Viacom, price increase) Yet Dish keeps their prices to the lowest they can and battles a media mogul (viacom) and maintain the same price as before.
Yeah cheap stuff....
skaeight
04-07-04, 10:02 PM
i guess the reinforces the general rule that if sports is your #1 prioity, go with DirecTV.
Not always...take a look at my thread at: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=25977
I just signed up w/ d* last week, and despite the fact I'm in Pirates and Penguines home territory, I can't get Fox Sports Pittsburgh or any RSN for that matter.
I would get this channel w/ AT120 on E* and my local cable system has it.
obrienaj
04-07-04, 10:50 PM
If your neighbor with Directv is getting the games and your not. Then its simple. Dish Network has not gotten a contractual agreement for that channel. Just like Dish Network has contracts with channels that Directv doesnt have.
Maybe. Dish does carry the CHANNEL but blacks out the baseball games. My whole point is that they need to tell us they do not have a contract to carry the baseball games as opposed to simply telling us that it is due to MLB nationwide blackout rules.
obrienaj
04-07-04, 10:53 PM
Not always...take a look at my thread at: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=25977
I just signed up w/ d* last week, and despite the fact I'm in Pirates and Penguines home territory, I can't get Fox Sports Pittsburgh or any RSN for that matter.
I would get this channel w/ AT120 on E* and my local cable system has it.
I read the thread reference above. It addressed one of my key interests; how one might get Dish/Direct to review potential mistakes in their computers. Seems that the CSRs I have spoken to are just not trained to resolve such matters.
Casual Observer
04-08-04, 04:10 AM
[/QUOTE]
I just signed up w/ d* last week, and despite the fact I'm in Pirates and Penguines home territory, I can't get Fox Sports Pittsburgh or any RSN for that matter.
I would get this channel w/ AT120 on E* and my local cable system has it.[/QUOTE]
It may depend on the package you have purchased. I live in Pittsburgh metro area & have been with D* for many years. I have both locals and the sports pack and have not had any black out issues with the Penguins or Pirates games which are shown on Fox Sports Pittsburgh - 628 on your guide. Fox Sports Pittsburgh is part of the sports pack, not the locals package.
I just signed up w/ (E*) last week, and despite the fact I'm in Pirates and Penguines home territory, I can't get Fox Sports Pittsburgh or any RSN for that matter....I live in Pittsburgh metro area...have both locals and the sports pack and have not had any black out issues with the Penguins or Pirates games which are shown on Fox Sports Pittsburgh - 628 on your guide...DBSTalk members: As guest Casual Observer has done above, please identify your location (city, region, DMA) in your posts, or better yet, add it to your DBSTalk profile in the Control Panel (CP).
Thanks.
BobMurdoch
04-08-04, 09:54 AM
I was pleasantly surprised about ONE thing...... the Pirates feed of the Phillies game was NOT blacked out on Extra Innings last night. I am in the New York Locals package and am ineligible for Philly channels, but mlb.tv blocks me from Phillies games saying that my zip code is claimed by the Mets, Phillies, AND Yankees...
Cool..... an extra game available. If they could just get YES I would have all games available, but being a Mets fan it isn't the end of the orld (at least until the fall when the Devils move to YES... I'm hoping MSG and FoxSPorts NY are under long term deals with E* so Charlie doesn't get tempted to drop the Mets, Rangers, and Islanders to pick up the Yankees and Devils....
Dish Network continues to be untruthful to customers about some baseball blackouts ...
Today I received email from someone that claims what the Buffalo News reported is not unique to the Buffalo area. He claims several regions have different contracts with Fox, that Dish was "too cheap" to sign the same deals as Direct TV.
I don't mind Dish refusing to sign expensive deals/contracts. I DO mind them not being truthful about why they do not offer certain products. :mad:
Who, higher up the food chain, can I pursue this matter with? The CSR at Exceutive Office said that they cannot give names of people I could talk to.You can perform this little experiment to see the diference between E* and D*:
Go to http://directv.fxep.com and http://dish.fxep.com. Enter a Buffalo ZIP code (ex. 14201) into each. D* can get Mets / Indians / Pirates / Yankees (Yankees not listed, but you do get them). E* can get Pirates. MLB EI on E* will still black out Mets / Indians / Yankees since you are in their home areas - i.e. even with Multi-Sport and MLB EI you don't get to see any Mets / Indians / Yankees games.
Now try a Las Vegas ZIP code (i.e. 89101). D* can get Angels / Dodgers / Diamondbacks / Giants / A's. E* can get Angels / Diamondbacks. Neither can get the Padres telecasts, since they are on a cable exclusive channel. Due to same home area rule mentioned above, an E* sub with Multi-Sport and MLB EI will still not see Dodgers / Giants / A's / Padres games. And D* subs with the Sports Pack and MLB EI will be blacked out of all Padres games.
Summary - for those who like baseball and live in certain ZIP codes, E* is a poor choice. And if you really want YES telecasts, get to D*. I think I will be. :(
Tornado25
04-08-04, 11:26 AM
"So, I asked several reps...if those teams are IN my market I should be able to get them if they are carried on a FOX RSA, right?"
This isn't entirely true. To the point: My home market Foxnet is FSN-North. Last night, FSN-N had the Bucks game on. I went the MLB EI and found the Brewers game (presumably, carried on what Foxnet is local for St Louis) was blacked out to me. Now THAT makes no sense--the Brewers are away, I can't realistically go to a Cardinals game, but MLB rules dictate that I can't see it--not DISH--in this case, because EI is primarily adminstered by MLB. I simply do NOT believe I could have gone to my mom's house (she has D*) and seen the Brewers game last night on MLB EI.
OTOH, I could watch the Indians/Twins game last night on what I think was the Minnesota feed of FSN-N. That doesn't make sense, either, because I thought the Twins claimed WI as part of their territory. Bottom line to me: MLB is the bad guy, period.
garypen
04-08-04, 12:27 PM
i guess the reinforces the general rule that if sports is your #1 prioity, go with DirecTV.
Is there also a rule that if reliable equipment working correctly out of the box is your #1 priority, go with DirecTV? Just wondering.
obrienaj
04-08-04, 01:56 PM
You can perform this little experiment to see the diference between E* and D*:
:(
I did your experiment using my zip code 14063. On Direct I would get Met and the Indians (seems Laura from Dish Executive Offices also lied when she said The Indians are NOT on Fox Sports Ohio) and Pirates. 3 teams. With Dish I would get simply the Pirates.
So, again my point it all this is that Dish should explain why, openely and HONESTLY.
Sparkman87
04-08-04, 02:19 PM
"So, I asked several reps...if those teams are IN my market I should be able to get them if they are carried on a FOX RSA, right?"
This isn't entirely true. To the point: My home market Foxnet is FSN-North. Last night, FSN-N had the Bucks game on. I went the MLB EI and found the Brewers game (presumably, carried on what Foxnet is local for St Louis) was blacked out to me. Now THAT makes no sense--the Brewers are away, I can't realistically go to a Cardinals game, but MLB rules dictate that I can't see it--not DISH--in this case, because EI is primarily adminstered by MLB. I simply do NOT believe I could have gone to my mom's house (she has D*) and seen the Brewers game last night on MLB EI.
OTOH, I could watch the Indians/Twins game last night on what I think was the Minnesota feed of FSN-N. That doesn't make sense, either, because I thought the Twins claimed WI as part of their territory. Bottom line to me: MLB is the bad guy, period.
Was the Brewers games on one of the ALT channels?
Ira Lacher
04-08-04, 05:06 PM
Wouldn't have mattered; you'd still have needed the OOM sports pack to view it, right? Or do you, if it's on an ALT channel?
The Brewers were on FSN Monday and Tuesday only. MLB has always been gay about blackouts even if your local station is not showing the game and St Louis is 7 hours away from Milwaukee!!!
It really is very simple if you are getting satellite mainly for sports you have to get D*. Anyone that argues otherwise is uninformed. I mean E* still doesn't have an NFL package.
amit5roy5
04-09-04, 10:25 AM
Why is DISH always increasing thier prices and not signing any expensive contracts? They just are concered of making as much money as they want.
garypen
04-09-04, 11:05 AM
MLB has always been gay about blackouts...
Do you mean that MLB dresses well, and has nice hair?
Tornado25
04-09-04, 11:55 AM
Was the Brewers games on one of the ALT channels?
No. There are 5 now and the game was not noted on any of them. I swear EI had the Brewers listed as one of the games, but I just couldn't see it. Maybe I'm wrong and the game wasn't on FSN and thus, totally unavailable anyway. If so, then I was wrong about the specific blackout issue I made. The general points are still true.
IndyCision
04-09-04, 02:48 PM
I wonder I you guys can clear up a confused Cubs fan.
I talked to Dish today about the Cubs and EI. Through two CSR's I was left with this explantion.
The Cubs would be black-out for me on EI because I'm in the Chicago market.
However, the Cubs would be blacked out for me on FS Chicago because I'm in the Cincinnati market. (As a side note, when the Cubs play in Cincinnati, the games are also blacked out on FS Cincinnati -- Nobody has an answer for that one other than that they don't make the rules)
My question is how can I be in and out of a market? This does not make sense. The zip I use is 47306
Pete K.
04-09-04, 02:57 PM
You can be "claimed" by both teams. From your signature, I assume you are in
Indiana. If you live in a zip code "claimed" by the Cubs and Reds, then you would
be subject to EI blackouts for both teams.
garypen
04-09-04, 03:01 PM
But then he shouldn't be blacked out on his RSN, should he?
Why is DISH always increasing thier prices and not signing any expensive contracts? They just are concered of making as much money as they want.
If Dish wanted money, then their prices would be the same if not higher the D*, the reason they dont sign exspensive contracts is because they dont want to pass the cost onto the customers. Plus why would they get the NFL Package, when it pretty much is a waste of money?
Pete K.
04-09-04, 03:10 PM
He shouldn't be blacked out on his "home" RSN but he will be blacked out on EI
by any team that "claims" him.
garypen
04-09-04, 03:23 PM
If Dish wanted money, then their prices would be the same if not higher the D*, the reason they dont sign exspensive contracts is because they dont want to pass the cost onto the customers. Plus why would they get the NFL Package, when it pretty much is a waste of money?
But, they are the same or higher than D for comparable programming, in many cases.
D's TC/locals for $40 has at least 12 more content channels than E's AT120/locals for $40.
D is $12 for HBO. E is $14.
IndyCision
04-09-04, 03:55 PM
You can be "claimed" by both teams. From your signature, I assume you are in
Indiana. If you live in a zip code "claimed" by the Cubs and Reds, then you would
be subject to EI blackouts for both teams.
But what I still seem to be missing is that Fox says that they base what games are blacked out based on the MLB rules and if MLB says that I'm in the Chicago market why, then, are all Fox Cubs games blacked out. It would seem that I should be able to see them on one or the other.
Earl Zuberbelt
04-09-04, 04:43 PM
Dish Network continues to be untruthful to customers about some baseball blackouts.
2 years ago I subscribed to the Fox Sports package as I was in the home market for the Yankees, Mets, Pirates, and Indians. Despite being in the home market for those teams all , except the Pirates, were always blacked out. No matter how I asked Dish questions about this, they always responded as though I was a dumb customer who did not understanding how blackouts usually work. They insisted that "we have no control over Blackouts, the rules are set by MLB".
At that time, I asked who I could talk to in order to review if they were mistaken, and perhaps my zip code was incorrectly programmed for blackouts. They had no suggestions. Some months later I found this article in the Buffalo News.
"Inquiring minds who subscribe to DISH network want to know: Why can't they
get the blacked out Mets and Indians baseball games on regional networks,
Fox New York and Fox Ohio, when DirecTV subscribers get them? A spokesman
for DISH acknowledged that the satellite service, unlike DirecTV, hasn't
made a deal with the owner of those regional networks. The spokesman added
that DISH is negotiating for the rights. If you can't wait, you better trade
dishes"
Two year later Dish introduced MLB EXtra Innings (or "ESPN Baseball" as Laura the Customer Service Rep at Dish Executive Office insisted it was called !). I thought perhaps the previously blacked-out teams MIGHT be now available. No, no such luck, they are IN my home market.
So, I asked several reps...if those teams are IN my market I should be able to get them if they are carried on a FOX RSA, right? The three CSR's I chatted with all insisted I did not understand baseball blackouts and it related to MLB rules, nothing to do with Dish. They were at a loss when I asked why Direct TV customers on the same street were not blacked out :)
Today I received email from someone that claims what the Buffalo News reported is not unique to the Buffalo area. He claims several regions have different contracts with Fox, that Dish was "too cheap" to sign the same deals as Direct TV.
I don't mind Dish refusing to sign expensive deals/contracts. I DO mind them not being truthful about why they do not offer certain products. :mad:
Who, higher up the food chain, can I pursue this matter with? The CSR at Exceutive Office said that they cannot give names of people I could talk to.
OK.... Television is what I do for a living. There is no, I repeat no more screwed up deal than the issue of sports blackouts.
I deal with this in a MAJOR market, and network affiliate stations, cable companies and the satellite folks all get slammed by viewers over the issue of black-outs.
We once attempted to explain, in a special series of reports, all about black-outs. We realized shortly into the process, is there is no good way to describe something as stupid, idiotic and just plain goofy as sports blackouts.
NO ONE IS LYING TO YOU. IT'S A STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID system.
-Earl
Yankee born Southern bred and given up on sports blackouts.
indyCision
04-09-04, 05:27 PM
OK.... Television is what I do for a living. There is no, I repeat no more screwed up deal than the issue of sports blackouts.
I deal with this in a MAJOR market, and network affiliate stations, cable companies and the satellite folks all get slammed by viewers over the issue of black-outs.
We once attempted to explain, in a special series of reports, all about black-outs. We realized shortly into the process, is there is no good way to describe something as stupid, idiotic and just plain goofy as sports blackouts.
NO ONE IS LYING TO YOU. IT'S A STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID system.
-Earl
Yankee born Southern bred and given up on sports blackouts.
Viewers (fans) have a right to be upset at the system. They just want to watch a team, that they have followed since they were kids, and are trying to get a logical explanation for an illogical system from service providers that don't understand it any better than they do, as to why they are not allowed to watch their team.
According to a Cleveland news channel, E* is the only satellite provider here that is not showing all the Indian's games. According to their report E* only wanted to pay to carry 1/2 the games. E* CSR's are not lying they are just ignorant.
I wonder I you guys can clear up a confused Cubs fan.
I talked to Dish today about the Cubs and EI. Through two CSR's I was left with this explantion.
The Cubs would be black-out for me on EI because I'm in the Chicago market.
However, the Cubs would be blacked out for me on FS Chicago because I'm in the Cincinnati market. (As a side note, when the Cubs play in Cincinnati, the games are also blacked out on FS Cincinnati -- Nobody has an answer for that one other than that they don't make the rules)
My question is how can I be in and out of a market? This does not make sense. The zip I use is 4730647306 - Muncie, Indiana.
Claimed as a home area by the Cubs, White Sox, Reds.
With E*, you can get only the Reds. Multi-Sport gets you nothing extra. MLB EI will black out Reds, Cubs, White Sox. Only Cubs / Sox games you will see are those on WGN.
With D*, you get Reds with Total Chioce. With the Sports Pack you also get Cubs and White Sox. MLB EI will black out Reds, Cubs, White Sox. Pain to have to get MLB EI + Sports Pack, but at least you see all the teams.
Why the difference? Only the programming execs at E* know for sure; but absent any other information, you have to assume that E* was able to save money on the RSN contacts by eliminating availability of pro sports in the outer reaches of some team's home areas - ex. eliminate Cubs / Sox games to E* subs in eastern Indiana, even though they qualify to watch the games. I'd be more than happy to be corrected by Echostar, if they so choose. :)
Tornado25
04-12-04, 11:00 AM
I wonder I you guys can clear up a confused Cubs fan.
I talked to Dish today about the Cubs and EI. Through two CSR's I was left with this explantion.
The Cubs would be black-out for me on EI because I'm in the Chicago market.
Makes sense and consistent with what I've found--The Brewers on EI are blacked out, but if they are on FSN-North, I can see them.
However, the Cubs would be blacked out for me on FS Chicago because I'm in the Cincinnati market.
Interesting. I can't say for certain, but I believe I get Brewers games on FS-North when they play the Cubs (and are NOT on WGN that day). This is despite the fact the Cubs claim WI as part of their market, I believe. I can see the Reds claiming Chicago/NW IN as part of their market, though.
(As a side note, when the Cubs play in Cincinnati, the games are also blacked out on FS Cincinnati -- Nobody has an answer for that one other than that they don't make the rules)
That makes sense, to me. You are trying to watch Cincinnati's feed of an in-market team (and from what you've said, possibly a home team that claims you are part of their market). I noticed during the EI Free Preview, that most games used the away team's RSN (typically).
I realize other posters have indicated that games you might not get on E* can be received on D*, based on the agreements E* did or did not sign. I'm not sure I understand that. EI is EI and of course, that doesn't help a person who wants That doesn't change MLB's rules regarding a) which teams claim your zip code as being in your market (as noted, both Chicago teams and Cincinnati do indeed claim that zip code) or b) when you are subject to blackout. It may be an unfortunate quirk you could never watch Cubs/Reds. (But, you should definitely see them if WGN carries any of those games).
Tornado
All Brewer games are on an Alt channel (445,446,447,448,449). If you are in the Brewers territory and they aren't on the FSN (or OTA), you will be blacked out on EI, even if the other team's feed is on EI.
In MN, we're SOL due to this stupid Victory dispute. Even though Thursday's MN/Detroit game was on FSN Detroit (not on local TV or Victory in Mpls) and in the EI listings I get the blacked out message. I can see any other game (or at least the ones they decide to carry)
Orcatek
04-12-04, 12:34 PM
OK - so has anybody simply changed their service address to get the games they want?
IndyCision
04-12-04, 10:53 PM
Tornado
I think the explanation given by you, JR and Pete are sound, of course whether it makes sense or not is a different story (the rules, not the explanation)
The odd thing about the Chicago/Cincinnati thing is that I'm in market for both teams. Of course, I can live w/o the cinci games if I had the option to see the other 155 or so. At least WGN still carries 77 or so of the games.
I don't understand how DTV could have a different set of rules than Dish, when they both say they follow the MLB rules, but I guess it is easier to have the CSR's blame MLB, than to have them try to explain the different contractaul agreements.
The one thing I noticed about EI was since only one feed is carried of a game, so when Cincinnati was playing Pittsburgh, only Fox Pittsburgh was carrying the game and therefore used as the EI game, that ment the game was blacked out for me on EI. Not unexpected, but I just found it odd.
IndyCision
04-13-04, 10:01 AM
\test\
Tornado25
04-13-04, 11:29 AM
Tornado
I don't understand how DTV could have a different set of rules than Dish, when they both say they follow the MLB rules, but I guess it is easier to have the CSR's blame MLB, than to have them try to explain the different contractaul agreements.
I wouldn't expect them to be different either, but reading Chris's recap of last night's Charlie Chat reveals they do not have an agreement with Victory Sports in MSP, so Twins fans are pretty SOL. I can see that, having to decide which truly regional sports networks you can agree with, but for those that are served by a FoxNet, I simply cannot believe that D* agreed with all 17 (or whatever) FoxNets and Dish only agreed with a few. I mean, really does that make sense? E* agreed to carry Fox-North, but couldn't come to an agreement to carry Fox-Chicago?
All Brewer games are on an Alt channel (445,446,447,448,449). If you are in the Brewers territory and they aren't on the FSN (or OTA), you will be blacked out on EI, even if the other team's feed is on EI.
Yep, I knew that, TonyM. I found that out when there was a game FoxNorth didn't carry recently and saw any Brewers game on EI was blacked out. It makes sense to me. If Fox North isn't carrying it, I probably shouldn't be able to see it, under the stupid MLB rules, anyway. I was wondering about Victory for Twins' games, though. I thought there were Twins' games on Fox-North? Is that for MN, just not for MSP?
The one thing I noticed about EI was since only one feed is carried of a game, so when Cincinnati was playing Pittsburgh, only Fox Pittsburgh was carrying the game and therefore used as the EI game, that ment the game was blacked out for me on EI. Not unexpected, but I just found it odd.
See, there is a scenario I am not sure if it makes sense to me or not. In a situation where Fox-North carries the Brewer game (there are some days they are not on), I get it, whether we are home or away, no matter who we are playing. If there is an EI feed of that game, I don't get it and it doesn't matter who is carrying it, since MLB and Dish expect me to watch it on my own FoxNet. However, if it's not on Fox-North and there is another feed on EI (the FoxNet for the opposing team) I probably shouldn't get to watch it, if the Brewers are home. But, if we are away, how does blacking me out hurt anything? The other FoxNet gets another viewer and I get to see my game. That is an MLB issue and is separate from any FoxNet/Dish contract issue.
I would presume this is the same issue for your Pitt/Cincy games. The FoxNet that carried the game wasn't the FoxNet for your "home" team, so you don't get it. Thus, a person living in the home market of any team will never see any game with their team unless it's on their own home FoxNet. That makes sense to me.
Honestly, I really think that aside from contracts involving a Regional Net like Victory or YES, etc--any blackout problems need to be laid at the feet of MLB. I really believe that on D* EI and E* EI, if a FoxNet is the carrier for any game and that game doesn't involve any of your "home" teams, you'll get the game, because I am very certain that E*'s contract with Fox gives them carry rights for all the Nets.
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