ASK DBS Talk---Next Software?

[deweybrunner]

Mark, I know you don't know for sure when we'll get next software, however, it would be great if they could at least give us back those which we had on L149 such as being able to have our ota favorites where we could get to them easier. You think it'll be this month? Thanks for a great job!

[Mark Lamutt]

It's not possible to step back at this point. But, I'm starting to hear something about an emergency release. David Levin has more details on that, as he's the one that got the message. I'm working through Eldon to try to get a confirmation. An emergency release won't happen this week (about 99% sure of that), but there is a slight possibility (at this point I'd say 5-10%) that it could happen next week.

[jsanders]

An "emergency release" would suggest that they think the patient is in critical condition. Any ideas as to what vitals they consider to be putting the 921 in danger? ie., lack of OTA in favorites, or in my case fewer channels than before, or something else?? I'm impressed that I haven't seen a "Death Report" on this message board yet....

I am seeing a number of hangups, but it doesn't seem any worse than L149 though. The aspect ratio stuff seems better. Just curious...

We've seen "emergency releases" before.

[Mark Lamutt]

I imagine it would be to address the frequent loss of OTA channels and the non-firing of OTA timers - that's the critical issue at the moment.

[jsanders]

I imagine it would be to address the frequent loss of OTA channels and the non-firing of OTA timers - that's the critical issue at the moment.


Sounds good to me!

[Jerry G]

How about nearly four months of not being able to add two of the local Los Angeles DTV channels and not being able to record one that can be added? This sounds critical to me, but I know a fix won't happen for a very long time, if at all. The 921 is going to be on the critical list for a very long time.

It's really sad. I was willing to put up with all the 921 issues until the Firewire disclosure (or should I say non-Firewire disclosure). Now, I just want the basic functionality of the 921 to work until I decide which provider to switch to, Voom or DirecTV.

[David_Levin]

I only discussed the features that were lost since the L180 release. I've had to rescan my OTA channels at least 3 times since Friday. It actually could be more, except I don't bother rescanning unless a timer is set up. This problem may be specific to certain regions.

Personally, I wouldn't consider the Favorites list issue anywhere near as critical as the disappearing channels (which keep timers from firing).

[jsanders]

Yes, it does seem like after four months after market release, they should have been further along than what we see. It is hard to explain why they are not further, but there are some things that come to mind.

We don't know how many programmers are actively trying to squash bugs. We don't know the nature of the bugs themselves. If these OTA problems involve programming a new image into the FPGA, that can be a huge undertaking to diagnose some timing problem in a discrete time PLL or something. Sometimes software has to work around hardware problems which can make things worse. We don't know what toolset they use, simulators are not always good at determining what people see in real life.

We don't know anything about how this product is being managed. Although, we do see releases in an erratic fashion, and plenty of "emergency releases". That coupled with the firewire fiasco would suggest it isn't being managed well at all. (I'm trying to be polite about that one)

There is a few things we can do though. Buy a directTV HD Tivo if we get too tired of this route! Otherwise, we can do our best to report our bugs with as much detail as possible, describing what happens and how to reproduce it.

We do have a good selection of testers on this board looking at OTA signals from hundreds of stations. That has to count for something. I want the 921 to work as advertised so I can enjoy it....

[jsanders]

I would love it to see KBHK, UPN, digital 45 recognized and added the channel list personally. That is a priority too, however, at this point, I will take what I can get....

[Kagato]

Dish Adv Support indicated that they are expecting the next release to be 1st week of may. Although that was just supposed to be for normal releases.

[cracka]

The release of L180 really makes one wonder what the process is for determining what is released and when. The testers clearly knew about the vanishing OTA problem from all indications mark hinted at in the days prior to release... and further demonstrated by his shock that it was unleashed. :D

Perhaps it was thought that these new critical problems would distract us from the firewire issue. That started out as a joke, but it does have a certain E*-style logic to it. :nono2:

[dubinvero]

I would like a fix that would enable the 921 to see the 61.5 satellite through the SW21 switch. I am missing CBS-HD which has all of its golf coverage in HD.

Derek

[Mark Lamutt]

I received some potentially good news this morning about the OTA problems...

[DVDDAD]

Mark,

Don't tease us; tell us what you heard (if you can). As I stated I can't get back my OTA stations at all.

[Mark Lamutt]

That's all I can tell you at the moment. Not trying to tease - trying to tell you that things are moving in the right direction.

[Jim Parker]

Oh, no! Another "When the large planet and small planet align...." clue :lol:

Wasn't that a line from the musical Hair, back in the late 60s? :D

[4HiMarks]

When the Moon is in the seventh house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars,
Then peace will guide the planets and love will steer the stars.

This is the dawning of the age of nine twenty-one...

-Chris

[ggw2000]

When the Moon is in the seventh house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars,
Then peace will guide the planets and love will steer the stars.

This is the dawning of the age of nine twenty-one...

-Chris


:lol: :lol: :lol: :hurah: :hurah: :hurah:

[Eagles]

That's all I can tell you at the moment. Not trying to tease - trying to tell you that things are moving in the right direction.


Mark,
Any chance for this week? !pride

[Mark Lamutt]

I haven't heard a word about it. So, if they aren't planning on testing it, the new software may come this week, but if there is a beta period involved, this week isn't looking likely.

[conner65]

Would this fix solve the PVR functions on those OTA stations where it doesn't work?

[Mark Lamutt]

I don't know. Still haven't heard anything.

[Eagles]

I don't know. Still haven't heard anything.


Mark,
Any idea what number designation the next update will have? !pride

[Mark Lamutt]

I have no idea what the designation is going to be yet - maybe L181?. I'll be finding out soon.

[Cheezmo]

Mark,
Any idea what number designation the next update will have? !pride

I know we are all desperate for fixes/information. But of what possible use could this knowledge be?

No offense, just curious.

[the_tx_dude]

I know we are all desperate for fixes/information. But of what possible use could this knowledge be?

No offense, just curious.

That way we can pre-type part of our bug reports now and get a jump start, e.g.,

Bug Report: L181 -- ______ is still broken
Bug Report: L181 -- ______ wasn't broken before but now is
Bug Report: L181 -- ______ Can we please go back to the prior version
Ask DBSTalk: L181 -- When will the next release be coming?

[SimpleSimon]

That way we can pre-type part of our bug reports now and get a jump start, e.g.,

Bug Report: L181 -- ______ is still broken
Bug Report: L181 -- ______ wasn't broken before but now is
Bug Report: L181 -- ______ Can we please go back to the prior version
Ask DBSTalk: L181 -- When will the next release be coming?
ROFLMAO :hurah: :lol: :D :p

[jsanders]

Any predictions about when we will be up to the directTV HD-Tivo level of usefulness?

It is out, and it works pretty much flawlessly. They have OTA guide data, dual sat tuners, dual OTA tuners. No random reboots, no timers not firing, they can watch all of their OTA stations, season pass works.

To quote from that discussion board, here is the only issue so far:


The only bug I can see so far is that the channel logos have not populated. I'm not really sure why that is. For we've seen some beta system screenshots where the logos exist. Perhaps there's just different logos and it'll be a while before they're sent to the units. Seems strange, though. Even the manual doesn't show channel logos -- but the space for them on the "Now Playing List" is still there. Maybe that's not really a "bug" though.

But otherwise, the guide works; the OTA stations are all there; the tuners seem at least as good as my Zenith HD-SAT520 receiver; the picture looks great; all the pause/ff/rew fuinctions work as expected, just like the SD counterpart.

What I hate to say is that it's kind of boring in a way. But I guess that's also why that's good.


If only we could say the same thing, only problem is no logos in the channel guide! That isn't even a feature for the 921.

Yea, kind of boring is good in that way!!!! I wish the 921 was only so boring!

[Throwbot]

Any predictions about when we will be up to the directTV HD-Tivo level of usefulness?

It is out, and it works pretty much flawlessly. They have OTA guide data, dual sat tuners, dual OTA tuners. No random reboots, no timers not firing, they can watch all of their OTA stations, season pass works.

To quote from that discussion board, here is the only issue so far:



If only we could say the same thing, only problem is no logos in the channel guide! That isn't even a feature for the 921.

Yea, kind of boring is good in that way!!!! I wish the 921 was only so boring!
921 bug reports:- 5,921 and counting
HD Tivo bug reports "0" ( well maybe 1)

[Mark Lamutt]

L181

[Cheezmo]

To be fair, there are a few more HD-Tivo issues than that.

Recordings cut off in the middle (seem to be the same show for everyone, on HDNet).

Audio dropping out never to return in the middle of recordings.

Seemingly not as frequent and perhaps restricted to one channel (HDNet).

But, I don't see them complaining about their timers getting corrupted (date changed, etc.) when they edit them. I don't seem them having to remember to tune to a live Sat channel and turn off the thing when they aren't using it, etc. etc. But all that lamenting belongs in another discussion.

I will have both in a few weeks, and probably return the 921 at that point unless it shows real signs of becoming usable.

[Slordak]

Here's the deal, though. I can't really point to a single thing that's gotten better for me with the last three or four 921 software versions, other than bugs which were temporarily introduced by one of them, and then corrected in another. Actually, I do now recall one such fix that did help some: The ability to remove digital OTA channels less than 2 and greater than 69. So I guess there was one.

Thus, I can't really figure out what the deal is. We keep hearing talk of the random crashes being fixed, and they aren't. We hear talk of the stretch modes being fixed, and well, maybe they improve, but they're still at least partially wrong. Maybe the OTA tuning gets better for one channel, but then you can't tune another channel at all, etc. etc. Bottom line, I don't feel like there has been any forward progress on the software, despite multiple updates.

Hence, I'm starting to feel really frustrated with the 921. I know it's a complex product, and as someone in the software field, I feel their pain, but honestly, some of these major bugs need to start getting totally fixed in the very near future. In the products I work on, we often have bugs which are very difficult to reproduce, but then they only happen under very special circumstances (e.g. do a while doing b, and then c happens, but it only causes a problem if the user has earlier done d). Something like "You can't add OTA channels to your favorites list" does not fall into this category! Sigh.

[David_Levin]

Here's the deal, though. I can't really point to a single thing that's gotten better for me with the last three or four 921 software versions.

Yep - I'm with you 100% And now, if I'm not home in the evening to rescan OTA channels I'm gonna lose recordings. L180, for me, is the worst so far.

It's very scary that the problems are not the same for all users (OTA, Picking up the phone). So we have individual 921 or external influences involved. What is a fix for one person seems to be a breaker for someone else.

How the heck are they going to fix this?

[the_tx_dude]

I agree with you because L180 has been the worst for me so far. As to how the heck they are going to fix it I am coming to the point of not caring as I am going to fix by getting HD Tivo. It appears that whatever testing that they do cannot replicate the variety of different signals at different strengths. I wonder how Directtv did it so that their HD PVR does not have all these problems?

[kmcnamara]

I wonder how they would handle developing software to work on a myriad of different hardware configurations. At least with the 921, they are working with an entirely known hardware setup. You'd think it would be easier.

[jsanders]

I called Dish today, and asked them to buy back my 921 because it doesn't work. They refused.

[jsanders]

I was just playing with Dish when I called. I figured they wouldn't be willing to buy the 921 back, I wanted to hear it for myself though....

[Throwbot]

I wonder how they would handle developing software to work on a myriad of different hardware configurations. At least with the 921, they are working with an entirely known hardware setup. You'd think it would be easier.
Ummmm ... In here (http://www.eldon.co.uk) it nicely says to
email commercial@eldon.co.uk with your specific needs.
Maybe you should?

[Throwbot]

Decisions decisions Work on the OTA guide or go down pub with me mates??????

[Throwbot]

Problem solved!
Look some wanker at Eldon forgot to put an antenna on the roof !

[jsanders]

Decisions decisions Work on the OTA guide or go down pub with me mates??????


That is an interesting thought. Maybe too many trips to the local pub is *why* we have so many OTA problems! How many pints are there in a 921 development cycle? :lol:

[jsanders]

Decisions decisions Work on the OTA guide or go down pub with me mates??????


At least their isn't a beer in that guys hand.

I remember beer vending machines at Siemens in Erlangen, Germany. Not good when you are writing code for medical diagnoses equipment like an MRI!

If you have too many pints of beer in the programmer, the picture will seem quite fine from the 921, antenna or no antenna on the roof!

:goodjob:

[Richard Chalk]

I seem to recall from Mark's initial post that this forum was for the posting of bugs, feature requests, and other material that might be constructive to the project. Furthermore, he mentioned that the developers would read the items posted here, with the intent of obtaining useful information to aid in their efforts.

I fail to see how your continuing denegration of the efforts of these people, and your slurs directed at the British population, can possibly fall into that category.

If you were to bother reading about the HD Tivo, of which there appear to be only about 200 released, you will find a myriad of problems with it as well, and those users have waited almost six months longer than we have.

Com on, guys, be constructive, or be quiet! Remember the old saying - "If you can't say something nice, then don't say nothin' at all"

Richard

At least their isn't a beer in that guys hand.

I remember beer vending machines at Siemens in Erlangen, Germany. Not good when you are writing code for medical diagnoses equipment like an MRI!

If you have too many pints of beer in the programmer, the picture will seem quite fine from the 921, antenna or no antenna on the roof!

:goodjob:

[jsanders]

I seem to recall from Mark's initial post that this forum was for the posting of bugs, feature requests, and other material that might be constructive to the project. Furthermore, he mentioned that the developers would read the items posted here, with the intent of obtaining useful information to aid in their efforts.

I fail to see how your continuing denegration of the efforts of these people, and your slurs directed at the British population, can possibly fall into that category.

If you were to bother reading about the HD Tivo, of which there appear to be only about 200 released, you will find a myriad of problems with it as well, and those users have waited almost six months longer than we have.

Com on, guys, be constructive, or be quiet! Remember the old saying - "If you can't say something nice, then don't say nothin' at all"

Richard


Richard, I think you mis-interpreted the tone of what I was saying. I was referring mostly to my own experience as a programmer in Germany which really had beer vending machines! Eldon is not in Germany.

Now, you will notice that Throwbot showed a picture of what appeared to be one of the 921 developers, wondering if he should work on the guide code or go visit the local pub. He then showed a picture of what appears to be the Eldon building w/o the antenna. They don't use antennas or dishes there because they can't receive the signals. This is why they use 8VSB and 8PSK simulators. Throwbot was making a *joke*.

My intent was not to put down the guys at Eldon. I did try to put a spin on the joke though.

I'm sorry if you didn't understand that.....

The 921 early adopters and developers have had a rough maturation curve, and sometimes it is nice to try to lighten the mood a bit!

[deweybrunner]

Hoping, praying, and wishing for 181 sometime this week! Any indications this will happen? Sure tired of rebooting!

[keitheva]

At least their isn't a beer in that guys hand.

I remember beer vending machines at Siemens in Erlangen, Germany. Not good when you are writing code for medical diagnoses equipment like an MRI!

If you have too many pints of beer in the programmer, the picture will seem quite fine from the 921, antenna or no antenna on the roof!

:goodjob:

Actually, in my experience as a Brit programmer, the most creative code was always written after lunchtime :)

Cheers,
-Keith

[jsanders]

Actually, in my experience as a Brit programmer, the most creative code was always written after lunchtime :)

Cheers,
-Keith


Creativity is usually a good thing! :righton:

As long as you don't have too much coffee! :icon_cof:

[Cheezmo]

I just have to wonder how much further along things would be if the developers lived in the US and could use the 921 at home. I know as a developer that the things I'm most motivated to fix are the ones that impact me directly.

[jsanders]

I just have to wonder how much further along things would be if the developers lived in the US and could use the 921 at home. I know as a developer that the things I'm most motivated to fix are the ones that impact me directly.

I think you hit the absolute biggest bottleneck with this whole development Cheezmo!

With the simulators you have a very controlled environment. You can program in specific multipath scenarios with different distances and attenuating reflectors, etc.. That should definetly be used, however, they simply don't see the real world scenarios we are seeing with OTA. I imagine it is a lot more stable with the simulator than it is for us. It might even be close to perfect.

They might also be stuck with the same old video feed modulating through the simulator. Kind of monotonous.

If they don't suffer with editing timers the way we do, they won't be so motivated to fix it. If they don't have to suffer trying to use the 921 in their own livingrooms, using it in real world scenarios, it is going to take longer to fix it. Instead, we have to send in our experiences, which they can't necessarily experience themselves.

How would you guys over there at Eldon like to cross the Atlantic for a working vacation? It might help both of us. The beer is on me!

[SimpleSimon]

I just have to wonder how much further along things would be if the developers lived in the US and could use the 921 at home. I know as a developer that the things I'm most motivated to fix are the ones that impact me directly.
EXACTLY! The developers should be forced to use the921 as their only access to the outside world - it's be perfect in a week. :p

[jsanders]

It does lead to some unsettling questions though... There are a few things they could have rock solid, even with their simulated environment that are not rock solid. Firewire doesn't need a simulated environment. Who knows what the real story with that is though... The user interface stuff is pretty weak in some spots, especially with regard to setting manual timers could be cleaned up easily w/o use of a simulator.

Maybe they need to put couches in their lab to simulate the livingroom environment too! :up_to_som

[Mark Lamutt]

The new software will get here when it gets here. It may be this week, next week, or some other week in the future. I don't know yet. When I do, and can tell you anything, I'll let you know.

Until then, this thread is done. It may interest you to know that several of the Eldon people are currently in Denver working on this, and that when it's time for them to go home, they'll be replaced by other members of the team. Not everything happens from the other side of the pond. I do agree, though, that if more of the development had been done here, rather than there, the 921 would probably be farther along than it is now.

With that, I'm closing the thread. If you want to continue the discussion, do so in the Dish DVR forum.