The 921 is Unbelieveable!!

[spummerr]

After reading this forum, I can't believe ANY company could put such a bug ridden, unreliable product on the market and sell it to people.
It boggles the mind. Whatever happened to R & D??? Beta testing etc.
I sure hope you 921 owners get your problems worked out, and live long enough to enjoy the service. I really feel sorry for you guys :(

[jsanders]

After reading this forum, I can't believe ANY company could put such a bug ridden, unreliable product on the market and sell it to people.
It boggles the mind. Whatever happened to R & D??? Beta testing etc.
I sure hope you 921 owners get your problems worked out, and live long enough to enjoy the service. I really feel sorry for you guys :(

Tell me, who is more pathetic? The 921 owners that are on this board who try to provide feedback to help speed up the maturation cycle, or the person who doesn't have one and has nothing better to do with his time than heckle us?

I'm sure this thread won't last long.....

[Anthony Falcone]

I don't think spummer was heckling, I think he was being sincere.

He's a fairly new member and when you first see all these bug threads after reading nothing but hype in the magazines, it can be quite a shocking revelation.

[BobMurdoch]

Yes, it has bugs, but it's like a Ferrari....

Yeah, it's in the shop a lot, but MAN when friends come over and you play back that Sheryl Crow concert in HD, a hockey game, or that IMAX film on Discovery HD you can see grown men swoon like they are 10 years old and it is Christmas morning.

Plus, now I've been recording Sportscenter on ESPN HD and the pristine video is blowing me away. For all the abuse we heaped on them with the overstretch issues and lack of HD content they are really starting to step up. I even like the cool HD vertical bars that are much less obtrusive than the grey bars on WCBS-HD or the black bars on other networks......

[Chris Blount]

I think spummerr is entitled to his opinion. Sure, the 921 has bugs but most 921 owners are enjoying the experience of time shifting HD.

[Link]

All the dish receivers have bugs. My 508 this morning had picture problems and then had no picture but had sound so had to reset it. It rarely has trouble like the 721 does. I don't know why they continue to have issues. Directv Tivos rarely lock up or don't record programs, but I do not like their service or guide.

[Mike D-CO5]

Well I have had the 921 for over 10 days now and I am here to report. The blue/red/green line I was seeing in the middle of the screen has gone away. In fact after the last software update I don't notice it at all on sd material over component or dvi. I am able to record my ota channels with manual recordings that work fine. I am able to record all my timers and have not missed any since the latest software update. It works pretty much as my 721.

That being said there are some minor annoyances that they could work out. I don't get good audio quality or picture quality out of my aux ports as I did on my 721. So I can't hook up my stand alone tivo to feed through my 921. I can't easily switch my pip like I did on my 721 without a message " do you want to stop recording" coming up . I found a work around that works on this board , but it is still annoying. All in all I like this unit and hope that it continues to improve at least to the level of the 721 is now. Although the 721 still has that annoying "unknown recording channel 77" bug, and the dish home applications still don't work yet.

But I have to say that I like this unit and am glad I spent the money on it. The hd channels are great. Having my local channels intergrated into my sat guide is sweet. Looking forward to ota guide information . This unit beats the hell out of the 811 I traded in on the 921. That unit had way to many picture quality problems.:(

[SimpleSimon]

Mike: The RBG line in the midde of the screen may come back - a reboot "fixes" it.

You will probably see the UNK-77 bug at some point - it seems to have 2-3 different causes.

[ayalbaram]

I have a 921 and yes it has bugs but so does any cutting edge product. My dsl wasn't reliable 5 years ago and it took 90+ days to install, my voip phone is still only 90%, and my samsung i700 cell phone windows CE device crashes randomly. Anyone else remember windows 95 and how unstable that was or has everyone forgotten. If you want to be on the forfront of any technology then you have to understand that it is not yet mainstream and it will have problems. If you don't want the problems then live without the technology until it is mature! I urge anyone whining and complaining about their 921 to think back to windows 95 rev 1! And to those who have helped by reporting the bugs I say Thank You!

[garypen]

That particular argument holds no water. HD is NOT cutting edge. DVR's are NOT cutting edge.

If it's so difficult to make an HD DVR (or in Dish case ANY DVR or HD receiver) with little or no bugs, why does DirecTV seem to do it with such regular consistency? (DirecTV also seem to be able to correct those few bugs relatively quickly.)

My newly purchased 721, which has been out for what..2 years or so is still buggy. Granted, they are minimal. But, they should be non-existant at this point in the product cycle. It took them two years to get it to the level of what it should have been on Day One!

I'm not getting into a D v E thing here. It's just sheer stupidity to ignore Dish's serious problems with the way they design, manufacture, and market their equipment.

[Anthony Falcone]

How much could it have cost for Charlie to buy out Tivo or even Replay? He threw $600 MILLION out the window with the failed merger attempt, but gets cheap when it comes to Dish equipment.

[garypen]

He also invested in a company that could have made a kickass box for Dish, but p*ssied out for reasons unknown. I've seen it demo'ed. It makes any current and past Dish box look like crap.
http://www.digeo.com/prodserv/moxi_overview.jsp

[spummerr]

I don't own a 921. Why? Because of the 921 forum postings. It's a product that never should of been released when it was.
I don't believe in using customers as test equipment. Find the problems and fix them BEFORE you market it. ok Dish???
I bought a 7200 Dishplayer when they came out. Same thing, bug ridden crapola product.
I still have it thou, and enjoy it. It took YEARS for Dish to get it working properly. That's why I said I feel sorry for you 921 owners. I know what Dish is putting you thru.
I just got a settlement offer with the class action suit 7200 Dishplayer customers sued Dish for. :) Dish is settling it. Owners sued because it didn't work as claimed.
921 owners should follow and sue Dish. You'd win easily.

And my original thread should of stayed in the 921 Dish forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Tell me, who is more pathetic? The 921 owners that are on this board who try to provide feedback to help speed up the maturation cycle, or the person who doesn't have one and has nothing better to do with his time than heckle us?

I'm sure this thread won't last long.....

[Anthony Falcone]

He also invested in a company that could have made a kickass box for Dish, but p*ssied out for reasons unknown. I've seen it demo'ed. It makes any current and past Dish box look like crap.
http://www.digeo.com/prodserv/moxi_overview.jsp

Yup, I remember that one.
Now he's involved with a consortium of companies under the acronym of MoCa (mulit-media over cable), which is working on a similar product. He probably gets involved with these groups just to steal their idea's and produce his own.

Problem is, when most comanies steal ideas it's usually because they think they can produce a better product; Charlie always seems to produce an inferior product. :)

[Chris Blount]

And my original thread should of stayed in the 921 Dish forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please review the rules (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=21370) of the 921 forum:

...All discussion, whining, complaining, Dish Network bashing, Directv bashing and the like will not be tolerated in this forum....

[cclement]

I have a 921 and yes it has bugs but so does any cutting edge product. My dsl wasn't reliable 5 years ago and it took 90+ days to install, my voip phone is still only 90%, and my samsung i700 cell phone windows CE device crashes randomly. Anyone else remember windows 95 and how unstable that was or has everyone forgotten. If you want to be on the forfront of any technology then you have to understand that it is not yet mainstream and it will have problems. If you don't want the problems then live without the technology until it is mature! I urge anyone whining and complaining about their 921 to think back to windows 95 rev 1! And to those who have helped by reporting the bugs I say Thank You!


I couldn't agree more with you ayalbaram. Sure the 921 has some bugs, but if I compare it to what it was even 5 months ago, it's a much better and more stable unit. Just like any newly released product, I'll be patient with it and enjoy it. My 921 works very well for the most part, and I really enjoy the HD picture it provides me. And I know it will continue to improve and become an even better machine in the future.

[ayalbaram]

Thanks for the support cclement. I hear everyone else's opinions and the simple point I was and still am trying to make is if you don't want the problems that come with the 921 don't buy it! If you bought one and are un-happy with it, sell it! there is a tremendous demand and a shortage of supply if you have one enjoy it. I just don't understand why people feel the need to complain so much you have a choice to use or not use both the rec. and dish service no one is forcing you to use either. Don't like dish dvrs goto cable not happy there either get Directv can't live with any of your 3 choices don't use them! There is good and bad with anything out there everyone must decide what is right for them, if you choose to use a service or product theres obviously a reason and like I said if your really un-happy just stop using it!

[MattS]

We also have to remember D* doesnt manufacture their DVR's like E* does...

[kmcnamara]

We also have to remember D* doesnt manufacture their DVR's like E* does...

And that makes it OK for Dish to release a horribly buggy receiver?

[Cholly]

That particular argument holds no water. HD is NOT cutting edge. DVR's are NOT cutting edge.

If it's so difficult to make an HD DVR (or in Dish case ANY DVR or HD receiver) with little or no bugs, why does DirecTV seem to do it with such regular consistency? (DirecTV also seem to be able to correct those few bugs relatively quickly.)

My newly purchased 721, which has been out for what..2 years or so is still buggy. Granted, they are minimal. But, they should be non-existant at this point in the product cycle. It took them two years to get it to the level of what it should have been on Day One!

I'm not getting into a D v E thing here. It's just sheer stupidity to ignore Dish's serious problems with the way they design, manufacture, and market their equipment.

To begin with, as I recall, DirecTV doesn't manufacture their set top boxes (although Hughes was directly involved in D* ownership). Their DVR's are based on solid TiVo technology (which Dish cannot use). TiVo was not without its problems in its early days. I had an early generation TiVo made by Philips, and got the opportunity to trade up to an 80 hour Series2 TiVo when they came out. And yes, I love my TiVo, which is connected to the S-Video output of my 811 and to TWC lifeline cable (for my locals). Since the 811 downconverts digital to analog on the S-Video and composite outputs, this combination works. My Sony HDTV monitor has an excellent line doubler, so the analog signal still looks very good. BUT, I can't record one satellite program while watching another (unless I get another receiver), and I can't get the benefits of HDTV on my recorded (time shifted) programs.
Point is, developing a DVR that doesn't infringe on TiVo's patents is probably cutting edge (and TiVo is in litigation with E* over that).
HDTV conceptually may not be cutting edge, but delivering the benefits of HDTV to the end user is still in its infancy. The Scientific Atlanta set top boxes used by Time Warner in my area are simply horrible. Digital cable in my area is a joke. I'm looking forward to getting a 921, warts and all. If I'd had one, I could have enjoyed the full two hours of last night's Gloria Estefan's show on HDNet, which aired from 12:30 a.m. to 2:30 a.m. Eastern time -- in HD and Dolby Digital. Granted, I could have set up my TiVo to record it, but it would have been 480i, in stereo -- hardly the same.

[garypen]

Dish's DVR technology is not in its "early days" either. How long have they been attempting to make these things? Three years? More?

And, I'm not just talking about DVR's. Dish's simple HD receiver, the 811, is also fugged up. The same cannot be said of the current LG-made Hughes and Sony boxes for DirecTV. (The Samsung has a few problems. But, I expect that from Samsung, and will not buy any more of their products.)

The fact that Dish makes their own boxes, while DirecTV does not, is not an acceptable excuse. It either means they have to get off their asses, and do it correctly. Or, they need to relegate it to a company that can, the way DirecTV does.

[JerryLA]

I'd like to address the first post in this thread:
No need to feel sorry for me my friend, I made a decision based on what I've read in this forum, weighed the pros and cons, and for me... it was a slam dunk. I also installed Windows 95 the day it was released, then Windows 98, and on and on until Windows XP Pro. Then in a fit of total absurdity, upgraded from Mac OS 9 to OSX. I purchased Half Speed Masters from MFSL, and jumped way out there with that new format Compact Discs. Let us not forget that flash in the pan... Video Cassette Recorders, my first being the Beta Max...and it goes on and on, right through Laser Discs and DVD's. My point being that for some of us, no matter how bad the bugs might be, or what the inconveniences may be....in the long run.... it's well worth it!
But thats just my opinion.... I could be wrong..... but I'm NOT!

[garypen]

Oh yeah. That betamax deck and laserdisc player were well worth it. You got a quadraphonic audio receiver in your closet next to an Apple Newton too?

[gsusser]

Just dropping in to see how all you 921 pioneers are doing. I admit to not having the adventurous spirit that you guys/gals have. I've been waiting (and waiting and waiting) for the bugs to be exterminated. I so much wanna get my mitts on one of these things. But I don't have the patience threshhold to deal with all the issues. Any idea when these contraptions will be ready for, um, "normal" folk like me?

[Bob Haller]

I had some of these including a betamax. they all worked although windows 95 was bad. the other products worked well but became obsolete over time. My betamax only went in for repairs twice in many years, replaced by VHS for longer record time

Now compare this to E................

[RAD]

Oh yeah. That betamax deck and laserdisc player were well worth it. You got a quadraphonic audio receiver in your closet next to an Apple Newton too?

Hey, I still have my 10 year old Pinoeer LaserDisc player and it still works, and did work right out of the box. Nice to use when I want to watch the original Star Wars or some other items that have never made it to DVD.

[Bob Haller]

how many years have you been married?

[RAD]

how many years have you been married?

22 years

[Bob Haller]

wow your a survivor. Congrats!

Being married is a learning experience on how many ways things can go wrong...

[garypen]

Hey, I still have my 10 year old Pinoeer LaserDisc player and it still works, and did work right out of the box.
Impossible. Cutting-edge consumer electronics NEVER work correctly out of the box. (At least, according to the Dish-apologists, they don't.)

[BobMurdoch]

I still use a Pioneer Combination DVD/Laserdisc player in my home theater. Until September, It's the only way I can watch the original Star Wars Trilogy with Dolby Digital sound (Pro Logic doesn't do it for me)

[Richard King]

I still have my Toshiba Cinema series Combo Laser/cd player packed up in it's box not working. I loved it when it did work, but it has been in three times and no one can fix it. :( I'm glad I didn't have a huge (not hugh) collection of laser discs.

[Mike123abc]

Impossible. Cutting-edge consumer electronics NEVER work correctly out of the box. (At least, according to the Dish-apologists, they don't.)

Actually the original Pioneer LaserDisc players did suffer from problems, I had to send mine back to the factory for upgrades to get it stable. My second unit would overheat, it was not until I got my third unit a combo DVD/LD that it actually seems to work without any problems. Now I am just afraid to use it since once it is gone my LD collection is useless.

[DonLandis]

921-

Loss of OTA channels after a required reboot to keep the thing working right for about 35% of the users according to the poll. 53% don't have any problem.
No OTA info in the program guide.
What else? Hmmmmm... Can't think of anything, at least that bothers me as everything else just works great! Oh yes, almost forgot- for those who need their SD image distorted, the 921 doesn't distort it the way they want it distorted. I believe they say it is too big to fit on their plasma screen.

HDTIVO-
Intermittant and loss of audio on HDNet Channels.
Intermittant or loss of video from the HDMI for large number of respondants.
The box overheats and the hard drive fails for an unusual number of people.
No channel icon bugs on some boxes. Not sure I understand this and until I own one don't really care to know. :)
The guide is so slow people say you can't or shouldn't use it.
TIVO commune is run by a cult so you have to live in fear if you talk about problems with the TIVO. :D (That was a joke for those who have no sense of humor)
I don't believe I have read about any other issues that people have had with the TIVO.


So with both having problems why would anyone want one over the other-
921- They want DishNetwork Programming or already have it.
HDTIVO- They want DirecTV programming or already have it, and the TIVO community embraces hacking the box to add additional hard drives. Doesn't appear TIVO cares. Can't even discuss doing the same with the 921 on the forums as you will be banned.

Both appear to have good support but the TIVO looks like the better deal so why doesn't everyone just jump on the HDTIVO bandwagon?- Can't say for others, just why I won't jump just yet and that is because I consider loss of audio and video and slow guides far more annoying than no OTA guide program data on my 921.

As for the others- Cable and OTA only boxes and home made DVR's... They don't even come close to the sophistocation and ease of operation of the 921 and HDTIVO. They are just jokes! (IMHO) Maybe some day!


The above represents how I feel, Others, obviously feel differently.

[RAD]

921-

HDTIVO-
Intermittant or loss of video from the HDMI for large number of respondants.
The box overheats and the hard drive fails for an unusual number of people.
No channel icon bugs on some boxes. Not sure I understand this and until I own one don't really care to know. :)
The guide is so slow people say you can't or shouldn't use it.
TIVO commune is run by a cult so you have to live in fear if you talk about problems with the TIVO. :D (That was a joke for those who have no sense of humor)
I don't believe I have read about any other issues that people have had with the TIVO.


Don, can you please clearify your statement about the HDMI problem for a large number of respondants? On the poll for this subject, http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=183203 the way I read is is that 85% of the respondants have had no problems with the HDMI port or aren't using it, only 18% have said that they have had one or more problems with it, how does that translate into large?

On the HDNet audio drop, yep I've run into that a couple of times, but then again, I don't watch HDNet that often. So it's like the 921 folks that say it's a good box as long as you don't want to watch OTA channels, the Tivo is a good box as long as you don't want to watch HDNet. ;)

On your comment about the box overheating and harddrive failures for an 'unusual' number of people, can you please qualify that? Looking on Tivocommunity, I find this thread, that's two pages long about harddrive failires, http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=182256

On the channel logo's, DirecTV STB's have logo's for the different channels, such as the peacock for NBC, the CBS eye, etc. Some of the boxes are showing up with no logo's while others are. The guess is that one of the 'master' images that are being used to build the harddrives is missing the logo file and that it will be corrected with a download later this summer. Some folks are really upset that they don't get the logos, I don't have them on my box and I'm not going to return it for a new one just because of it.

The DirecTV style guide is VERY slow, it's that way on all series 2 Tivo's, the Tivo style guide is much faster and is usable. It's been said that this may never be fixed since it would be a very large rewrite of the Tivo code.

[JerryLA]

Seems like I missed out on the Apple Newton! My point is, if you buy new technology without waiting for all the bugs to be removed, you take a chance. Sometimes is works out , sometimes it doesn't. My 921 does everything I expected and then some. It is worth the cost of the "pain in the a** problems, to have the unit now!"

[DonLandis]

"Don, can you please clarify your statement about the HDMI problem for a large number of respondants? On the poll for this subject, http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=183203 the way I read is is that 85% of the respondants have had no problems with the HDMI port or aren't using it, only 18% have said that they have had one or more problems with it, how does that translate into large?"

Sure- First of all you need to learn how to read poll data. The first thing one needs to do is throw out all those who responded as to never having tested the system in question. That represents 27% of the respondents who diluted the % of those with failures vs. those without failures. Now lump all the failures together and compare with the new total who actually tested. The total respondents who tested are 198 and those with no problems are roughly 75% of that number. This tells me 1 in 4 could probably have an issue with HDMI failure. Of course all these numbers are based on the poll you referenced. :)


"On the HdNet audio drop, yep I've run into that a couple of times, but then again, I don't watch HDNet that often. So it's like the 921 folks that say it's a good box as long as you don't want to watch OTA channels, the Tivo is a good box as long as you don't want to watch HDNet. "

I don't say that about the 921 at all. I say I have no problem with watching and timeshifting OTA on the 921. I only have a problem with the guide that doesn't exist. But then I have an advantage in that as a broadcast engineer I also recognize that none of the stations submit accurate guide data around here so the chance it would work is rather remote, even with the holy grail TIVO. I know the OTA guide data on my VOOM is so off it is hilarious. Nevertheless, I don't have a problem at all with OTA channels since the most recent software upgrades. Yes, according to another running poll about 35% of the respondents report having problems. I'm in the other cartegory with no problems using it.

Hard drive failure- Thanks for supplying the thread reference. The only report of this with the 921 was Scott's unit last January and even that report turned out to be a false alarm as his 921 fired up again after he left it off overnight.

Logos? As I suspected, this is not such a big deal, just a minor QA issue in mfg. As you said, more of a bother to those who love to hunt for something to complain about. Me, I will place importance on what really matters. Guess it's like caller ID on the 921. Some people can't get their's to work. Mine works fine but if it didn't, I probably wouldn't ever care. I actually turned mine off for awhile but my wife wanted it back on so, different strokes for .... :)

Slow guides- If there are two than I agree, what's the point? Use the faster one unless there are other issues with it that people are afraid to talk about.


I really don't have an issue with the TIVO. I have issues with some people who are brainwashed by the TIVO cult community. I only have the 921 and not the TIVO now because, 1. the 921 was available for me to buy and the TIVO wasn't. My dealer who I ordered one back in beginning Feb. can't get one. If I was serious I would find one at Circuit City, I suppose but the reason I haven't done that is because I 2. do believe that all the reports of serious failures on the HDTIVO are real. I believe that the possibility that there is no HDMI on 1 in 4 units is real. Acftually, I didn't think it was that high until you pointed me to the data that proves it. I won't accept that I should just ignore connecting the TIVO to HDMI/DVI in order not to have the problem or I should not watch channels with audio loss so I am not bothered by that problem.

Now having stated my position, I do plan on getting in on the hunt later this month, take a risk and hope I'll be in one of the 3 out of 4 that has no problems with the TIVO because I want to have it in place for NFL ST HD this Fall. :) I suppose Circuit City is my only choice since TIVO still haven't kept their delivery promise made to me last January of having one in my hands by April 1st.

[RAD]

Don, I know how to read poll data, I was questioning your use of the term large to discribe the number of people reporting the problem. HDMI/DVI may not be an issue for a number of folks at all that didn't even bother looking at this thread since they don't use it and don't care which can also skew the numbers. Even taking your 1 in 4 analysis I don't see how you can say large.

On the OTA, sorry I wasn't meant to imply that you had OTA problems. It's just that I see others post when asked how the 921 is, that if you don't want to use OTA then it's a good box. I was using that logic to apply it to the HDNet audio problem.

While I own the HD Tivo I don't consider myself to be brain washed, in fact I'd really prefer to see the Replay functions vs. the Tivo functionality. Hell, just NBR would do it for me, I don't need sugguestions.

[Cholly]

Dish's DVR technology is not in its "early days" either. How long have they been attempting to make these things? Three years? More?

And, I'm not just talking about DVR's. Dish's simple HD receiver, the 811, is also fugged up. The same cannot be said of the current LG-made Hughes and Sony boxes for DirecTV. (The Samsung has a few problems. But, I expect that from Samsung, and will not buy any more of their products.)

The fact that Dish makes their own boxes, while DirecTV does not, is not an acceptable excuse. It either means they have to get off their asses, and do it correctly. Or, they need to relegate it to a company that can, the way DirecTV does.
Owell -- I was thinking strictly in the context of HD DVR's. The problems with the 811 speak for themselves. It would be nice to have someone with the track record of Sony or Hughes making the boxes, to be sure. (Not that they didn't have early production problems).
I wouldn't categorize the 811 as a "simple" receiver, though. Considering that it has composite, component & DVI outputs, and has OTA analog/digital capabilities, I'd place it in a "complex" category. (Not saying that the D* receivers you mentioned aren't).
I still wonder if Echostar actually makes their own receivers or contracts them out. Are some of the bugs chip related or software related? Also, i've seen lots of mention of Eldon botching the code of the various E* receivers. If E* is simply trying to *fix* Eldon's botched code rather than going through a complete rewrite, that could open a whole can of worms. On the other hand, a complete rewrite would take an eternity. :D

[Van]

No 921 here because hd tv's are still to damned expensive and theres still not enough content available out there for me to justify the purchases ( no Im not getting voom and theyre poor channel line up of B and C rated hd channels ). Ive only had one experience with a 921 and that was back in december, poor guy was on his 3rd box and waiting for a fourth and that was only after being installed for 2 weeks. Aside from the caller ID function not working and an errant pixel the PQ was great and the dvr functions worked flawlessly.

If it wasnt for piss poor marketing the betamax would be in homes all over today, it was a better product in general. Win 95 was more stable than the initial release of 98 and ran neck an neck for stability. Laser disc was a white elephant but it was still cool, hehe. Naw a real white elephant was the yugo.

[SAEMike]

Everytime a copy of Windows is released the "everything has to work perfectly 100% of the time" crew starts complaining about bugs in it. I've seen every single version of Windows called "the best Windows yet" and "The worst software ever released".

As with any software, the 921 had to be released before ALL the bugs can be found. The only way to truely find all the bugs is to put it in wide release so that there are thousands of people all using it, doing different functions, and sequences of button pushes, ect. This is what software updates are for.

[SimpleSimon]

Well, to compare the 921 to a car, it's one thing to have a steering wheel glove of the wrong color (annoyance), the wrong wheel setup (bug), versus missing some wheels (DishWire, OTA problems), and then having it Denver Booted (no expansion allowed).