Ask Dish: Time to stop Farting around and get serious with the 921 fix. [Archive]

DonLandis

08-03-04, 04:58 AM

Ask Dish:

OK, it's been 7 months of this nonsense of patching and tweaking, making excuses for your developer's incompetence and failing to supply features advertised such as Dishwire function. It's time now for Charlie Ergan to put this team on the chopping block and demand results. Charlie needs to appoint a new leader of DVR development who will be responsible for holding the existing team to performance deadlines. He should find new replacements to do the job if the current teams can't perform. He should be able and willing to start from scratch with a new team if necessary.

If it were true that the competition were having massive issues too then we could blame the state of the art is not mature enough for DVRs but that is not so. The competition is not having these issues, therefore it is the fault of the ability of the E* team of developers and testers are just not able to make the product they introduced work. It is time to find people that will.

dishbacker

08-03-04, 07:24 AM

Amen to that!

:joy: :joy: :joy: :joy:

Eagles

08-03-04, 08:03 AM

Amen to that!

:joy: :joy: :joy: :joy:

Mark, are we close to anything on the SW unpgrade front? It has been a while since any substantial fixes have been implamented. !pride

Mark Lamutt

08-03-04, 09:26 AM

Don, I understand the frustratioin, but your post is out of line for the 921 forum.

Moving to the Dish DVR forum.

Eagles, we're in beta now for the next version. That's all I know at this point.

Scott Greczkowski

08-03-04, 09:38 AM

I don't think Don's post was out of line in the least. By hiding the post in another forum does not show the 921 what users really think about whats going on.

You know when I was talking with Jim Defranco and he was telling me how disapointed he was with the work that Eldon has done with the 921 (with a rep from Eldon standing directly behind us) I felt bad for the Eldon guy, however now I don't enough is enough its time to get this thing fixed.

Don I agree with you 100%

Mark Lamutt

08-03-04, 09:56 AM

If the post had been made anywhere except in the 921 forum, it wouldn't have been out of line. That's why it, and all other posts that don't follow the rules get moved out. If I had wanted to hide the post, it would have gotton hidden or deleted, not moved to this forum.

Mike123abc

08-03-04, 10:02 AM

The frustrating part about the 921 software is that it is so close to being right but has some big bugs. Software wise I happy with how the unit works, and if they were to get rid of the bugs, I would have very few issues with the unit.

I have given up recording OTA for the time being (thank goodness my market finally got on Dish) and record the satellite channels for LIL. It is ok during the summer when there is nothing really going on OTA, but when the new season starts next month it will be frustrating not being able to record HD OTA. Every time I have tried OTA recording it locks up in some way for me. In contrast I have yet to have a problem at all with just sticking to satellite.

I think that the whole problem comes down to the fact that it was developed out of the country. They appear to be able to simulate satellite reception pretty good and have worked most of the bugs out there, but their simulators of OTA ATSC simply did not prepare them for real world use. The simulator probably gave them perfect PISP information every time, never had issues with weak signals, multipathing, stations changing resolution and subchannels on the fly, etc.

Bill R

08-03-04, 10:07 AM

I don't think Don's post was out of line in the least. By hiding the post in another forum does not show the 921 what users really think about whats going on.

Scott,

Sometimes you come across as a real control freek. You STILL come over here and try to tell others how to run DBSTalk. You have your own board, run it the way YOU want and let the people that run DBSTalk run it the way they want (and Mark, I agree with you, the post WAS out of line for the 921 forum).

I DO agree with all the people that say it is time to get the 921 working the way it should be. As usual, DISH has too much on their "plate" and, apparently, the 921 is not as high on its list as it should be.

Scott Greczkowski

08-03-04, 10:41 AM

garypen

08-03-04, 10:47 AM

Don's comments and frustration can be applied to almost any Dish receiver, DVR or otherwise. It seems to take them at least a year, sometimes two, to get these things working close to right.

Slordak

08-03-04, 01:09 PM

At least the 921 no longer reboots actively while watching a program. That used to be the absolute worst, where you'd sit down to watch something, and the sucker would just reboot for no reason. That got mostly fixed, and then we just had problems not being able to get timers to fire after a period of time. Now we have the "it reboots overnight" workaround instead... Not really much more than a band-aid, though.

But yeah, we've been in a holding pattern for quite some time now in terms of all the things which are still broken. I had a big list before which I posted some number of months back, and pretty much everything on there is still broken. Someone at Dish needs to get serious. Where I work, software issues visible to the customer have to get resolved in a matter of days, not a matter of months.

TedKaz

08-03-04, 02:25 PM

I don't think it was out of line... We've all been patient dealing with the incompetence of this company.

SimpleSimon

08-03-04, 03:55 PM

The following is a copy of my post on Scott's board. It applies here, too.
http://www.satelliteguys.us/showpost.php?p=163376&postcount=8

Hi guys! In short, I agree with everything said above...

EXCEPT: it would NOT take a year for 3-4 COMPETENT programmers to rewrite the damn software. Been there, done that, more than once, can do it again.

And don't even think about arguing it with me (I know the big guys above won't), because the only way you can prove me wrong is to let me try to do it.

leemathre

08-03-04, 04:26 PM

Bob Haller

08-03-04, 04:41 PM

Bill over here I realize I am a user, I have no problem with that, but I did feel Don's message was on target and should be seen by the folks at Eldon and not hidden from them.

Some people don't like it and frankly I don't really care. And I don't believe the post was out of line.

For all practical purposes the 921 is dead, again when the 942 is released never expect to hear the numbers 921 uttered on TV again by Dish.

Scott I find your comments here humorous, since I am banned at your site.

I believe the 921 problems are more on the hardware side, and that makes it near impossible to fix properly. Its a relative of other E DVRs that work for many while some still have troubles.

Do agree with Scott on one thing.. Es solution to poor performance boxes is ignoring then abandoning the box and sub. Just look at the original dishplayer, every user should of been offered a free upgrade...

One day the 921 will be yet another lawsuit

garypen

08-03-04, 04:57 PM

One day the 921 will be yet another lawsuit
..especially at $1000 a pop. That is fuggin criminal.

Bob Haller

08-03-04, 05:34 PM

Another oddity, I used to be unique here with my negativity. Now I am still likely the most negative here but there are lots of others unhappy with E....

I think its largely because of Es decisions and bugs, like the 921...

Hey the NEW DVR will fix the problems we will do better!!!!

Said after the DP, said about the 500 series to a smaller extent...

Said about the 721......

Said about the 921......

Said about the 942?????

DonLandis

08-03-04, 05:45 PM

Before making my post I reread the rules as posted in that forum section:

"The rules are simple: This ares is to be used for only bug reports, feature requests, and issues that the Dish 921 programmers need to see. All discussion, whining, "complaining", Dish Network bashing, Directv bashing and the like will not be tolerated in this forum. In other words, unlike the rest of DBSTalk, the support forum is NOT a free-speaking forum. This is not the place to ask where to get a 921, or when they will be available in your area. The Dish Network folks are busy making the 921 a better receiver, and don't have time to wade through a bunch of useless clutter."

After rereading the posted special rules again I agree that I had posted a "complaint " which is a violation of that specific rule. Complaints are not permitted in that section. I made sure I followed the address rules properly as "Ask Dish"

Mark did explain to me that it was an unknown issue why there was no notice that this thread was moved while others are listed with "Moved" notice. I also respect that Mark has told all of us that posting there will be subject to his scrutiny and is not a free speech zone. In that light I respect his desire to censor what I have posted so Eldon will not be upset that I have called for Charlie Ergan to fire them and find someone new.

In addition, I respect that many others before me have said the same thing about Dish Network's inability to turn out quality product. By this thread, my comments, I simply join in on your side now. It took a matching technology (HDTIVO which is by no means perfect either) sitting side by side for me to realize just how bad the 921 is.

Already many are blowing smoke up my butt (can I say that here?) about this new 942 that will be perfect. ha ha ha ha. The smoke tickles! I can promise you all that the only way a 942 will end up here is if E* agrees to swap for the 921 and pay the retail difference. But I really don't believe they will have a better software unless it is done by someone with a proven track record like E* striking up a deal with TIVO to make it work right. Or maybe Simple Simon can do it. :)

SimpleSimon

08-03-04, 06:48 PM

...I believe the 921 problems are more on the hardware side, and that makes it near impossible to fix properly. Its a relative of other E DVRs that work for many while some still have troubles...
No, the hardware in the 921 is VERY programmable. Just looking at what's changed from level to level verifies that. :) Eventually, Eldon shot off enough rounds that they've actually kindof gotten most of OTA to sorta work for a lot of the people much of the time. Give them 10 or 20 more shots in the dark and they might make it to the 90% level - maybe even better.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with the literally hundreds of other problems the box has that are likely to never be fixed (like the 721 issues).

Scott Greczkowski

08-03-04, 07:12 PM

Scott I find your comments here humorous, since I am banned at your site.
Bob you are not banned, where did you ever think you were banned? Please show me something from me telling you you were banned.

You were the reason I added the Bitch and Moan forum. :lol:

Bob Haller

08-03-04, 07:23 PM

Scott I e mailed you repeatedly, and you never ever answered even one...

Unable to post is banned, call it whatever you like....

Its not a big deal, I just found it humorous.

DID YOU HEAR THE NEWS?:)

E has plans for the NEW 9421W VR server!

Quote! " WE realize we have had problems in the last 30 DVR models we released, but we promise this one will be different" July 24 2034 charlie ergen jr new company president:)

mothergoose45

08-03-04, 07:36 PM

I don't see the need for all of the bitching back and forth. The only thing everyone wants is a product that works correctly for the hard earned money spent. With that said, if I had spent $1000 or even $100 for the 921 it's the principal that it doesn't work to the specifications that E* said it would.

Scott Greczkowski

08-03-04, 07:45 PM

Bob I just checked your account and there is nothing wrong with it, you should be able to post with no problem.

As for you emailing me, we did talk in emails a few times. The only emails I ever seen with the word BANNED in them were ones you sent me from Chris from here at DBSTalk when he wanted to ban you for being too vocal.

Anyways you are not banned.

Anyways back to the topic at hand, I have a funny feeling on Monday night's Tech Chat I got a feeling they are going to tell us how good the 921 is now and how they are ramping up production.

Then someone will call and as about something on the 921 and we will be told that the problem will be fixed by a software update in a few weeks..

Of course we know that a few weeks will pass and there will be no update... Then 2 months will pass and we will all be pissed off, then just before the next tech chat the software will finally come out and they will brush off the late release and instead tell us how great a release it is.

Guess we will find out on Monday Night. :)

Bill R

08-03-04, 08:23 PM

I have a funny feeling on Monday night's Tech Chat I got a feeling they are going to tell us how good the 921 is now and how they are ramping up production.

Then someone will call and as about something on the 921 and we will be told that the problem will be fixed by a software update in a few weeks.

Scott,

I agree with you on that statement. DISH Network MUST start keeping the promises that they make to their subscribers. Like the cable companies, it now appears that they are spending more resources on trying to get new customers than they are on keeping their current customers happy (by putting more of their resources into developing better software and into quality control). Simon's statement "it would NOT take a year for 3-4 COMPETENT programmers to rewrite the software" brings up a big issue. Where and what is the problem at DISH? Do they not hire the right people (or right amount of people to handle the workload) or is the problem in management that decides that it is O.K. to release products (and even software updates) that aren't ready for prime time? Competition is getting tough (and it is going to get tougher). DISH has a good product but they MUST do a better job on their software if they expect to retain their current customers and get new ones.

garypen

08-03-04, 08:37 PM

DISH has a good product but they MUST do a better job ...If they actually did have a good product, this entire thread would be unnecessary, including the valid comments you made.

Dingle Dong

08-03-04, 08:40 PM

When will dish learn?

Bob Haller

08-03-04, 08:54 PM

I personally believe the DVRs suffer from inadquate initial specs. Underdesigned a bit to save money, like cheaping out on memory. parts specs are a bit sloppy, so all boxes dont respond to the same software quite the same, then toss is a overworked inadquate design team, partially caused by mimizing the number of folks who really know how the boxes work, to help prevent those same folks selling the info to pirates. Add in software troubles arent a big deal, we can fix them in the next release, with no organized bug testing.

All this contribuites to the stellar products we have today...

E found with the DP that purchasers will tolerate all sorts of troubles...:(

The no cost no commitment lease is a great thing in one way.

Contiuning to release junk can cost them big time... churn can skyrocket...

kmcnamara

08-04-04, 01:41 AM

Denver, CO (AP) Today, Echostar just received the first ever CMM Level -1 certification. Echostar head Charles Ergen responded by announcing that their new "Chaos Theory" software lifecycle is to thank for their progress.

DonLandis

08-04-04, 09:00 AM

BOT-

I see that Mark has now fixed the deleted thread entirely over there with a properly placed "Moved" link in the 921 bug AKA ASK... section.

Other related issues-
I decided to call in and seek ADV tech support last night when my 921 began dropping off subscribbed sat channels once again, for the 7th time since L186. I got through to an adv tech right away who was quite fascinated about my list of complaints on L186. It seems that several complaints I documented have never been reported to her in the complaints that are filed on a software version. She filled out a ticket for the Development group to investigate on each one of them. I explained that I had posted along with other people from around the country in discussion threads in the 921 support forum on dbstalks,com and had assumed that these discussions were read. She told me that none of those discussions become official unto someone calls them in as I just did. I recall Mark says and reminding us to call it in but I also believed that that forum was the official site to also report a bug. I was mistaken.
Everyone needs to CALL IN any and all complaints or it will not become official.
AS of last night, I understand that the following now have one complaint as of L186.
1. Spontaneous loss of sat channels every 2-4 days requiring a smnart card reboot to fix.
2. OTA channels with no PSIP data can be manually scanned but the signal bar remains red and can't be added to be viewed.
3. Unless you powercord reboot every day or two, the receiver slows down to a crawl and then may fail to respond at all.
4. Continued no DVR functions on certain OTA channels around the country

With all the discussion on the 921 support forum that is supposed to be read by the developers, the official policy is that it is ignored and not considered until it is reported in by phone to adv tech support.

So, I implore all 921 owners to now begin to report every instance a bug happens. These ADV CSR's are not getting the bug reports from the 921 support forum discussions. When you speak to them, be sure to ask if they are filling out a bug report ticket for the developers.
I plan to begin calling on every instance to file a report. IT is quite possible that the decision makers at E* are operating with only 33 cards in their deck.

BTW- I also made an official complaint about the developers and the fact that I feel a half a year is too long for them to have made the progress they did and it is time for E* to get with it and make this thing work right. If they can't, then I would like my 921 to be put back to L185 because that with rebooting each day made it work the best state it has ever been. I told them that L186 did nothing but break stuff.

David_Levin

08-04-04, 09:09 AM

BOT-

I got through to an adv tech right away who was quite fascinated about my list of complaints on L186. It seems that several complaints I documented have never been reported to her in the complaints that are filed on a software version.

That CSR is full of beans. They will never admit to all the bugs they know about. And, very few CSRs have 921s - that's why I never call them.

I've spoken with Renee Darby (921 program manager), plus two other people in the executing office. They us the 921. They know about the bugs.

Improper training, and the technical incompetance of the CSR is one of the many reasons DirectTV is picking up more subs the EchoStar.

Will they every learn? Apparently not. The 921 is largely a repeat of the Legacy Dishplayer. An off-site programming team is killing them.

Bob Haller

08-04-04, 09:40 AM

Advanced tech not long ago said lost tuner 2s on a 721 wasnt a known problem. yeah sure about my brookly bridge sale...

in general companies dont admit to troubles....

astrotrf

08-04-04, 10:47 AM

I think that the whole problem comes down to the fact that it was developed out of the country. They appear to be able to simulate satellite reception pretty good and have worked most of the bugs out there, but their simulators of OTA ATSC simply did not prepare them for real world use.

I could accept that argument, to a degree, except for the fact that there are so many reported problems that don't really have anything to do with OTA reception. The problems with timers form a good example: timers should be utterly rock-solid irrespective of OTA problems; they should not spontaneously disappear, misfire, cut short, record the wrong channel, etc., etc., etc. :nono2:

(Of course, a timer that's supposed to be recording a bad OTA channel is another story.)

Terry

P. S. to SimpleSimon: put me down for the programming team ... qualifications available on request! :)

Bill R

08-04-04, 10:57 AM

Just so everyone knows, the advanced techs DO have access to known (documented) bugs. A reason that the tech may not have the bug on his/her list is that some people do not have a tech fill out an "uncommon trend" report when they discover a bug so it never gets on thier list. The "UC report" goes to engineering and that is the way that bugs get documented. QC (quality control) SHOULD be finding a lot of those bugs (and I heard that they do find many of them) but, they don't find them all. As for the tech TELLING the customers about the problem -- they are trained to tell the customer about a known bug IF the customer brings it up AND it is documented. As we all know, some CSRs and techs do not follow their training so you never really know if your bug is on their list or not.

And Bob Haller, you are not exactly correct in your statement "I personally believe the DVRs suffer from inadequate initial specs. Underdesigned a bit to save money, like cheaping out on memory." All consumer electronics, except the really high end stuff, is a compromise in usability and cost. DISH's biggest problem is because of their software, NOT their hardware. Even the most disfunctional receivers (like the models 7100 and 7200 DishPlayers) became stable after MANY software upgrades.

As for "cheaping out the memory", you will really find out what that means if you ever get a DirecTV TiVo. Because of the lack of memory (to save money), the DirecTV style guide (not the TiVo style guide) is EXTREMELY slow as is the retrieval of the list of recorded programs (especially if you have one with a larger hard drive). My point is that I don't think that DISH's initial specs are at fault as much as the requirement (usually by the marketing department) to be able to sell at a certain price point (or monthly charge).

Bob Haller

08-04-04, 12:29 PM

Bill true everything is a compromise. But I watch my 721 get slow like a computer without enough memory. sometimes it crashes and needs rebooted.

shooting for too many features without enough memory to reach a unreasonable price point leads to dis satisfied customers and lost business.

Its ODD bill I remember attacking the programmers and you came to their defense, now I spread the blamer around and you blame the programmers...

I guess theres enough fault for everyone

Bill R

08-04-04, 01:02 PM

Its ODD bill I remember attacking the programmers and you came to their defense, now I spread the blamer around and you blame the programmers...

Bob,

Yes, I came to their defense when you called them "clueless and incompetent" because I don't believe that they are. And where did I blame DISH's programmers? Read ALL my posts in this thread and you will see that I blamed the software on DISH's problems (remember, the INITIAL software is developed at ELDON and sometimes it is very hard to correct initial software design problems). I questioned WHERE the problem are at DISH. I really believe that the problem is in management, not the programmers themself. They can only do so much with the time they have and my take is that they are all overworked and have unrealistic deadlines set for them that results in software not as stable and bugfree as it should be. You can have the best programmers in the world (and I'm not saying that DISH has, or doesn't have the best in their field) but if you overwork them you don't get the best results and THAT is what we are seeing from DISH.

Bob Haller

08-04-04, 03:17 PM

Oh whatever the causes today its clearkly a management failure. There are times I think charlie should hang it up, and retire.

Obviously he and his group are incapable of running the show properly.

A isolated problem like this is one thing, but these issues are relentless and ongoing thru multi generations of boxes.

Throwbot

08-04-04, 05:48 PM

I'd just like to agree with every post in this thread except this one :grin:

SimpleSimon

08-04-04, 08:31 PM

Bill R, Bob H: I've seen WAY too many so-called programmers over the years that can barely spell computer let alone actually understand how they work, or how to make them do something. It's sad, but my estimate is that probably two-thirds of the "programmers" out there shouldn't be allowed to touch a keyboard.

As an old example - MCI - I was one of the two competent programmers in a group of 8. 5 were employees, 3 (including the 2 of us with brains) were contractors. Marketing came out with something called "Friends & Family" (remember that? :) ). They released the product and started advertising it and selling it before the specs ever made it to the software people. Four of the 5 in the group spent 3 months in meetings discussing the specs (without the contractors). The specs then came to us and inside of 60 minutes, we tore them to shreds and they had to go start over. They spent another month on it, and finally came to us and asked us to design it. The 2 of us started with a clean sheet, a pitcher of beer, and our arguing hats. :D Initial system design was done in 4 hours, overall database & programming design in 2 days, coding took 2 weeks, testing another 2 weeks, and implementation was completed just about the time the executives approved the plan.

Any bets that's exactly what happens at Echostar?

P.S. astrotrf: If only we had the chance to bid on the project. ;)
Ain't never gonna happen - it would be too embarassing for management and we all know that their only REAL priority is to protect their own worthless @$$es

dishbacker

08-04-04, 09:02 PM

SimpleSimon

08-04-04, 10:18 PM

Well, beings we're gonna bluesky this thing. Whatcha all think. $250K split 5 ways over 6 months? With the RIGHT 5 people, we'll "git-R-done" :D

dishbacker

08-05-04, 08:03 AM

Seeing how it'll be 6 months before name based recording is 'supposed' to be available for the 921, I think we could get it done faster than that and include that functionality too to impress DISH to take the deal. But as you say, with the RIGHT 5 people.

Bob Haller

08-05-04, 08:29 AM

How about a group reverse engineering the thing, then producing better software than E:)

Just a joke but still wouldnt it be funny...

DonLandis

08-05-04, 10:15 AM

"they are trained to tell the customer about a known bug IF the customer brings it up AND it is documented."

And that's how it happened, I gave her a list of bugs I had observed with L186 specifically and some she had on her list and those she didn't she said she was typing up a ticket on it. Call it what you will, I don't know the industry terminology or PC phrase, I just call it a bug report. My point is that posting here and not calling it in doesn't get your bug or uncommon report necessarily made officially reported.

There was no conversation where I said what bugs do you show on your list? I wouldn't expect any employee to divulge that. I don't even think Mark is permitted to list the official bugs if he even knows the list.

Mark Lamutt

08-05-04, 10:49 AM

I don't even think Mark is permitted to list the official bugs if he even knows the list.

I tell you about the bugs that I run across that are in release versions that aren't already known. I don't tell you about all of the bugs that I run across (or the ones that run me over) in the beta versions. So, yeah - that statement is pretty accurate.

Throwbot

08-05-04, 06:27 PM

I find it interesting that a few months ago I made a remark on the 921 forum that the 921 programmers were totally incompetent and I got blasted for being unfair and non constructive. I guess I am not the only one with that opinion now.

Look I know I'm not the sharpest quill on the porcupine, but I told you silly buggers months ago, the problem is you have a bunch of morris dancin Yorkshiremen working on the software. Blind drunk, pants down, couldn’t care less uneducated Yorkshiremen, I should know I was born and bred in Lancashire, and they called us mallet heads caused they said we spoke like we just got hit over head with a rudder great big mallet!
Read on and realize that it is a lost cause!

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.

SECOND YORKSHIREMAN: Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!

THIRD YORKSHIREMAN: Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.

FOURTH YORKSHIREMAN: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

ALL: They won't! they all be working at that Echostarry place up road.

DonLandis

08-06-04, 04:13 AM

Throwbot-
You seem to be of the classic example of someone who can be helped by a few thousand visits to a psychiatrist. :D I have no idea how a drink of H2SO4 in the morning or any of your other complaints will help Charlie Ergan realize he needs to take a tough stand on performance of his present team of DVR developers, Yorkshireman or not.

garypen

08-06-04, 12:22 PM

Well, beings we're gonna bluesky this thing. Whatcha all think. $250K split 5 ways over 6 months? With the RIGHT 5 people, we'll "git-R-done" :DI think we should make it 6 ways. I can bring the coffee and donuts.

joebird

08-07-04, 01:33 AM

It seems that most of you who are reporting constant problems have been long-time owners of the 921, from late last year or early this year. I had hoped to jump on the bandwagon then as well, but could not find one for sale, and refused to pay $1500 on Ebay for one.

At any rate, I finally got one a few weeks ago. I'm not sure what they may have addressed in between stopping production earlier this spring and now, but my unit has been very stable. I've only re-booted it once manually, when I came home to a frozen picture on the screen and it would not respond. For all I know, my kid may have sat on the remote and done something strange. It has never lost channel information, OTA tuner is very good, and even more reliable than the 6000 (i.e. if I tune to a previously-scanned OTA channel that's not broadcasting at the time, the 6000 would just delete it from the list and move on -- the 921 is more graceful, and I've not had to re-scan my OTA since I first got the unit).

I guess my point here is that I suspect they made some hardware changes while the lines were down. I know they removed the dishwire ports (and I, for one, can live with that), but they must have made some other changes as well. What else would explain how we could all be running the same version of software but our machines are acting quite differently? For instance, I've never seen any of the 4 issues that Don listed above. I realize it's only been a few weeks, but if the machine is that unstable for many others, I would think I'd have had a major problem or two by now.

Did Dish ever post a summary of hardware changes? I may have missed that if so.
Have any of you long-time owners tried to get a new unit? I assume that some of you may have replacement units, but I wonder when those were manufactured...

Mike123abc

08-07-04, 04:04 AM

I think a lot of what goes wrong with the 921 is the OTA HDTV stations. Different stations do different things with the PSIP information and this causes havoc with the 921 in some areas. My 921 is only 2 weeks old and I have yet to have a successful recording of OTA in my area. I am not going to post bug reports yet since I am going to wait until the next version if it comes out next week to see if it fixes the problems.

On the satellite side it has performed very reliably. I just record my locals off of satellite for now since OTA does not work yet.

joebird

08-07-04, 12:01 PM

I guess part of my good luck is living in an area with good OTA stations. Ironically (in contrast to what I said in my recent post), my 921 was 'stuck' this morning. Last night I decided to manually push the power button to turn it off. Might be the last time I do that!

bobl

08-07-04, 12:40 PM

joebird,

Try this out to verify a bug in the 921 related to your (SF Bay Area) not-good OTA stations. Try adding KBHK digital 45-1 (analog 44). It may very well show a strong signal but you can't save the channel because it's lacking PSIP information. If you haven't even seen this bug then your comments regarding the lack of bugs are questionable at best. All other combination satellite/HD receivers can view this channel (i.e. the 6000, 811, HDTivo, etc.).

Bob

garypen

08-07-04, 02:13 PM

FYI - I believe I saw posted on the HD in SF Yahoo Group that UPN44 will be adding PSIP soon. Apparently they never had the proper HW.

fox200

08-07-04, 04:51 PM

garypen

08-07-04, 05:33 PM

But, I'll bet it shows up as 45.1, not 44.1. That is the station's fault, not, in this rare instance, Dish's.

fox200

08-07-04, 05:38 PM

But, I'll bet it shows up as 45.1, not 44.1. That is the station's fault, not, in this rare instance, Dish's.
That's correct.....However, I think 45.1 is the correct digital channel number.

fox

joebird

08-07-04, 05:57 PM

bobl,

Yes, when I did my original channel scan, 45-1 did not come back with any call letters. I don't remember exactly what it showed, but it was pulled in as a signal. All I did was to edit the name to be "UPN", and it's been there ever since, even after a couple of re-boots (one power plug and one card pull) that I've been performed. I can try and remove all of my OTA channels and re-scan...

bobl

08-08-04, 11:50 AM

You guys are telling me you currently can view 45-1 (KBHK) on your 921's? I was able to view it prior to version 146 but that software release screwed up all of my OTA channels (16 of them). I had to delete them all and then add them back. I was only able to add back 12 of them. KBHK plus three others could no longer be added. I have strong signals but the indicator never turns green (it stays red). It's not the signal since I could get the stations before and my 811 gets them all. I haven't tried to add it lately so I will try again and report back. This behavior of not being able to add channels without PSIP information has been widely reported. BTW-I have talked to an engineer at KBHK and can confirm they will be adding PSIP soon. Unfortunately I don't know how soon is soon.

Bob

msanto

08-09-04, 10:38 AM

SimpleSimon... There only priority is the perception of keeping their labor costs down. Pay a worker here (or off-shore) less, and it has to be better for the company, right?

I completely agree on the ratio. 2/3rds is a fair number of 'programmers' that would be better off in another career instead of wrecking a companies software and wasting a lot of money to fix their f*d-up code.

I'll happily join you on that software bid....

So, I've been off this forum for quite some time. Where is Eldon? Is it in India? Basically, all my dealing with call centers / programmers (yes, my company offshores) etc. in India has been pretty negative.

The only good thing I can say about a call center in India is that you can swear at them as much as you like and they won't hang up :)

Other than that they're basically clueless.

joebird

08-09-04, 10:49 AM

You guys are telling me you currently can view 45-1 (KBHK) on your 921's? I was able to view it prior to version 146 but that software release screwed up all of my OTA channels (16 of them). Bob

16? It sounds like you used to get just about everything. What are the other 3 that you lost? I'll let you know if I can get them now. The only one that I really can't get is KICU/36 due to a large tree. My antenna installer (channelmaster 4228) said I could add a 2nd small antenna for KICU, but I didn't think it was worth it. But yes, I can get 45.1. This is what partly made me wonder what they may have changed in the hardware between the original models and the new/current ones.

Joe

Bill R

08-09-04, 11:08 AM

So, I've been off this forum for quite some time. Where is Eldon? Is it in India?
No, they are in the U.K. You can read about them here: http://www.eldon.co.uk/

bobl

08-09-04, 12:13 PM

joebird,

I played around with the add OTA channels screen yesterday and I was again able to add KNTV and KFSF by fiddling with my antenna (the signals for these two stations are pretty weak). The other two (KBHK-no PSIP and KDTV-has PSIP) never produced a green bar even though I get pretty strong signals.

Although the last two stations never produced a green bar I was eventually able to add them back by using a trick I've seen mentioned here before. I went to the DTV channel box and keyed in the first digit in the channel. I then keyed in the second digit and immediately hit the down arrow to get to the save button. I then waited for the signal to apear and immediately hit the save button. The key here seemed to be saving the station ASAP as a green bar briefly appeared for KDTV although it never turned green for KBHK. Regardless, the immediate save did actually add the channel to my lineup. I did have to edit the name of KBHK as it was added with a description of NONE.

Others here with non-PSIP stations around the country might try this trick to see if they can add their stations. Anyway, I now have all sixteen of my stations back that were all made unwatchable by the download of version L186. Hopefully L187, which I understand should be out this week, won't break things like L186 did and maybe it will get around to fixing some of the still numerous bugs remaining.

Bob

Jerry G

08-09-04, 02:11 PM

Hopefully L187, which I understand should be out this week, won't break things like L186 did and maybe it will get around to fixing some of the still numerous bugs remaining.

Bob

This is a very reasonable thing to hope for. Given the 921's track record, it will be shocking if it does fix some bugs without breaking others.

For almost 8 months I haven't been able to record our local PBS (KCET in Los Angeles). It has PSIP. It can be added to the guide. It can be tuned in (both subchannels). But it can't be recorded. If the next software version doesn't fix this, I fear for what I may do or turn into.

jvelez67

08-09-04, 03:20 PM

bobl

08-09-04, 03:57 PM

jvelez67,

I'm seriously considering switching to DirectTV and the HD DirectTivo. I'm primarily looking for stability, name-based recording and an OTA program guide. My parents were looking to upgrade to HD and asked me for my opinion on how to do it. I couldn't recommend the 921 and suggested they switch to DirectTV. They switched on Friday and I got my first real look at the functionality of the HD DirectTivo.

I really liked what I saw and am almost convinced to make the switch. I especially like the complete program guide (includes OTA channels) and the two OTA tuners. The only real downside is that their program guide is very, very, very slow. Tivo heads will tell you that you won't use the program guide once you get used to Tivo but I already record a great deal and am still looking at the program guide frequently to see what's on right now (news, sporting events, etc.) rather than to simply see if my timers are getting everything I want.

I would ask yourself whether you want to invest $1000 in a 921 at this time considering the amount of problems associated with this receiver. Balance that with your desire for specific programming and ask yourself does Dish have any programming I can't live without. If so, get the 921 and live with the problems. None of them are so bad that you can't enjoy the receiver and I'm sure Dish will eventually bring stability to this receiver as they have to all others (it just usually takes a year or so after introduction). If there isn't any programming you can't live without I would switch to DirectTV and get the HD DirectTivo. That is what I would do today if I didn't already have the 921. I may still do it!

Bob

jvelez67

08-09-04, 04:50 PM

Thank you for your honesty, Bob. It’s just a shame that Dish couldn’t get this entire situation under control. But what choice do I have? I live in Boston and I know that most of the channels I’ll be watching are going to be OTA. So, I don’t want to be disappointed and angry with the 921 and having my wife reminding me how much I spent on an almost useless HD DVR. Why? What is a HD DVR good for if you can’t record HD in it? You can record sat channels, of course, but what about the OTA channels? It will be like staying with my 508, unless I sign up for their HD package. What really blows my mind away is not seeing E* doing anything about it, at least not enough in my opinion. Aren’t they at least legally obliged to their customers to present good quality products or fearing some type of lawsuit from the customers? I don’t know, but this extremely frustrating for me. I really didn’t want to switch. Anyway, I still have to save a little bit more and I’ll continue monitoring this site. Hopefully, the situation may change before I make the switch. Thank you!!!

clapple

08-10-04, 09:57 AM

Hi guys!!!

Being really honest, reading all these posting about the 921 really scare the heck out of me!!! I was planning to upgrade from my 508 to the 921, but these folks at Eldon have almost changed my mind. I’m really undecided, I don’t want to go to cable, I’m thinking about DirectTV. So, how are you holding out with this entire situation? It’s a big investment (at least for me it is) and I really don’t know if I should jump into this huge mess created by these people. Any recommendations? If you had known, would you have bought the 921? I will make my own decision, but I’ll really appreciate any comments from the people who are really dealing with this situation.

Thanks for your time and honesty, guys!!! :)

You don't say where you are located. Most of the remaining 921 problems seem to be with OTA. I only have one OTA digital station. Have had my 921 about a month and am absolutely delighted, with it. Works perfectly, as a satellite recorder. If your location gives you lots of OTA HD, that might be a different story.

jvelez67

08-10-04, 11:47 AM

Red,

I live in Boston, Massachusetts. I think that most of the local channels are already on HD. Plus, this is my opinion, when you are spending about $1,000 in an equipment like this one, you want more than just a satellite recorder. You can get a satellite recorder way cheaper than this one. The whole point of this unit was to be a HD OTA capable recorder. And for most folks, this is resulting impossible!!! I don’t think this is fair for the customers. They say: “stop feeding the pig”, but what are we feeding in the their side: “incompetency”. How can they release something like this without being thoroughly tested? What markets they used to test this unit? And they are still selling this at the same price!! They are taking advantage of all this HD euphoria, because people want the unit and maybe don’t want to switch or something. But this is a slap on the face from a company that tries to represent itself as customer oriented. This could have been great, but it has resulted in a great blunder. I just hope that they get their act together.

SimpleSimon

08-10-04, 12:08 PM

garypen

08-10-04, 12:25 PM

I think he meant SD satellite recorder. His point is that since much, if not most, HD is OTA, an HD DVR should record OTA HD as well as it does satellite. He's right, too.

DonLandis

08-10-04, 12:36 PM

Jerry G.-

Now that 3 of our local channels that were absent PSIP havs added it, the remaining issue on OTA channel here is WJWB, a Warner Bros affil. where it has no DVR function, Once we get that then it looks like I'll be bug free on OTA with the 921. Then we can concentrate at least for me, the guide info to ease the way we do recordings. I agree that the non-DVR function for these stations scattered about the country is elusive. I have no idea what is causing this or even if it is all being caused by the same problem. It may be like the Caller ID problem and that it is different for each station. All I do know is that it's not something that the station is doing in that my HDTIVO has DVR function on that channel with no problems.

BTW- as of the 4th, FCC has made PSIP a requirement as part of the ATSC regulation. I suspect all non-PSIP stations must become compliant within 30 days. It's about damn time! WGBH made it's initial request for regulated service about 2 years ago.

jvelez67

08-10-04, 12:41 PM

Yes, "garypen" that is what I meant. What extreme purpose are you going to get out of a 250 gig hard drive, just to record SD! That's what I'm doing right now with my 508. I don't know, I may be mistaken, but OTA reliable reception should one of the 921 priorities, unless you are only going to live from their SAT HD package and SD channels.

garypen

08-10-04, 01:21 PM

I'm with you bud.

SimpleSimon

08-10-04, 03:03 PM

jvelez67, garypen: I don't want to argue, because you both have valid points that I agree with - although jvele67 is right in saying (as I do) that the main purpose of the 921 IS for satellite recordings.

However, MY main reason for going with the 921 was precisely to get a 250GB hard drive - mostly for SD recordings!

jvelez67

08-10-04, 05:16 PM

No, SimpleSimon, that’s not what I meant. I think that $1,000 is too much for just getting a 250 gig DVR and be happy with it, you deserve more functionality and features for that price. The HDTivo has it. So, it’s not something impossible to recreate. The 250 gig hard drive? Well, even if you buy two 510’s you won’t be getting near that much money to pay. (It is a hypothetical situation, Simon, I know is not that easy) I’m just trying to approximate the cost of the unit to anything else that they have. Anyway, let see if the L187 upgrade improves the situation. I heard it’s coming on Wednesday.