ASK DBSTalk: Next Software Version?

[boylehome]

When can we expect the next software update for the 921?

[Mark Lamutt]

I may know more about this after tonight. I'm having dinner with some of the Eldon folks that are here in Denver this week.

[Eagles]

I'm having dinner with some of the Eldon folks that are here in Denver this week.

Mark, I hope they'll be picking up the tab!! HA HA
!pride

[Mark Lamutt]

Well, they may not want to after I hit them with all of the current problems that L186 has introduced for some people...

[Rodney]

If their fear factor is not too great they, Eldon representatives, should make themselves available for the Tech Chat Monday night to answer questions specific to software problems associated with the 921.

[Cyclone]

Take em to the Trail Dust (http://www.traildust.com). Its my favorite when I'm in Denver.

[Mark Lamutt]

Definitely one of my favorites as well!

[SimpleSimon]

Yeah, but you can't take them there now - there's gonna be a lynch mob standing at the door this evening. :D

[markcollins]

please grill them on when the overstretch problem will be fixed.and OTA program guide!!

[tahoerob]

please grill them on when the overstretch problem will be fixed.and OTA program guide!!
The only 4 requests that I have are:

1. OTA guide data
2. Local in locals SD channels along side OTA ones
3. Improve OTA reception via software (if possible)
4. Fix no video output at start up after turning off unit left on music channel

[jsanders]

Well, they may not want to after I hit them with all of the current problems that L186 has introduced for some people...


Hey Mark, welcome back!

I think there is a different dynamic to keep in mind here. There was a fiasco with actually getting L186 to work as far as loosing channels and stuff goes. I don't see that thread having lots of activity anymore. There were a number of us, like myself, that wanted to actually change their votes to the "No problems" section too.

I think L186 is doing as well as the rest were so far. Not to say that we are finished by any means.

We have also had a large changeover of posters to this message board. There are a lot more 921s out there now. Satellite guys even has the 921 in stock now, no waiting lists even! With more users, there will be more feedback.

As far as I can tell, there are a couple steps backwards with L186 though.

1. The ratings lock which was fixed in L185 is now not working again. The scenario is to change to a movie channel five minutes before a show that will trigger a ratings lock will appear. It doesn't ask to authenitcate when the show starts again.

2. The black screen issue when the 921 is trying to lock onto a program is an issue more than before. L186 is the first release when I've seen users complain about it.

3. Satellite audio dropouts, pixelation, and "acquiring signal" messages became frequent again with L186, however, this is not an easy thing to quanitfy.

4. Would be really cool to have some OTA guide info.


They seem to have fixed for the most part people loosing channels every morning. It's been weeks since a timer hasn't fired for me now! :)

[keitheva]

Frankly, after the L186 fiasco and the time and trouble it took for many of us just to get back to where we were with L185, and with no significant functional improvement on that release either, I hope there isn't a software update for a while - I don't want to have to go through that again so soon; and when there is an update, I hope it isn't a repeat of L186 in these respects.

Cheers,
-Keith

[boylehome]

Frankly, after the L186 fiasco and the time and trouble it took for many of us just to get back to where we were with L185, and with no significant functional improvement on that release either, I hope there isn't a software update for a while - I don't want to have to go through that again so soon; and when there is an update, I hope it isn't a repeat of L186 in these respects.

Cheers,
-Keith
Actually there is a give and take with software updates. I look forward to an update as I know it is a step in a better direction. A few more updates and we will have nothing to complain about.

[joebird]

The only 4 requests that I have are:

1. OTA guide data
2. Local in locals SD channels along side OTA ones
3. Improve OTA reception via software (if possible)
4. Fix no video output at start up after turning off unit left on music channel

I agree with 1 and 2 totally. I've only had mine for a short while, but it seems to work very well. For me, number 3 would be to be able to add OTA channels to favorites lists (and have then show up in the guide).

[4HiMarks]

I agree with 1 and 2 totally. I've only had mine for a short while, but it seems to work very well. For me, number 3 would be to be able to add OTA channels to favorites lists (and have then show up in the guide).

I second that. And OTA guide data (i.e. #1). Or at least break the OTA into half-hour or hour blocks so we can set timers from the guide. Then fix the program description of OTA recordings so it doesn't keep describing it as some religious program in the 260 range.

-Chris

[rbyers]

Here's what I'd like. More frequent updates with fewer changes per update. This should help the programmers isolate the problems and provide better insight into regressions they introduce into the code.

As far as OTA, I'll live without the program guide data (it's available from my newspaper) FOR NOW. I would like some real bugs fixed first.

1. Channels that appear to add, but only display a black screen and no audio

example is channel 48 (50.1,50.2,50.3) in LA

2. Channels that work fine except you cannot use any PVR function with them

example is channel 28.1 (KCET) in Los Angeles

3. Channels that cannot be added to the guide despite strong signal

example is Channel 66 (s/b channel 13-1) UPN channel in Los Angeles

Thats my OTA list.

[tahoerob]

......... For me, number 3 would be to be able to add OTA channels to favorites lists (and have then show up in the guide).
Earlier versions of the software DID do this. I had a favorites called HDTV that included satellite & OTA channels. Somehow they broke it!!! ALso, we have not been able ot make new favorite lists.
Interestingly, when on an OTA channel, it still says HDTV (the list I made) in the banner display.

[Mike123abc]

I would rather see them fix all the bugs before they add a single new feature. Yes Dish home, name based recording, guide info on ota locals, etc would all be nice features, but when you cannot rely on the box to actually record OTA what good do they do?

To date I have yet to make a successful recording of OTA digital. Every time I have tried it locked up in some way or another.

[DonLandis]

Frankly, I doubt the current development team has the capability to fix this mess. The pressure is on per Mark but with that pressure it appears they are screwing up more than ever. The L186 was supposed to add a self reboot according to Mark but there were obvious other changes he didn't list that we, unofficial testers discovered such as the shut down of some OTA channels being recognized by the OTA tuner. I posted my suggestion as to what to do in another thread. It was moved from this forum section but was not deleted. I stick to what I believe and that E* needs to take a good hard look at where this team has been in the past 6 months and where it is headed.

As just one more example of something they believe they fixed but didn't:--
IMO, hiding the gray screen of death, was not a fix as the root causes for GSOD were not fixed. The only thing it did was to force us to reboot or the 921 began to slow down to a crawl to almost what appeard to be a system lockup. Rebooting is still the only malfunction recovery option we have whether it is manual or GSOD is neither here nor there. I'm sure some of you believe that removing GSOD was a bug fix but I'm telling you that when you suffer a fever, breaking the thermometer does not remove the fever. When the 921 begins to break down we no longer get the GSOD but now it just freezes. What kind of fix is that? You might say the GSOD was spontaneous, I'll rebutt with the slow down to a system lock up is spontaneous. All they did was remove the Gray screen! These guys are just barking up the wrong alley and in my opinion will never make progress by removing the symptoms rather than the failure in their software. THEY NEED NEW LEADERSHIP and some new talent or E* NEEDS A NEW TEAM.

A second example is the belief that removing a listed feature is a way to fix the bug in the 921. Examples- remove Dishwire as a feature because it was too difficult to make it work. Now they are slowly removing OTA channels. What's the plan for this, remove all OTA function because it is too hard from them to make it work? That would sure solve the biggie, OTA guide issues! After the Dishwire fiasco, I wouldn't be surprised if OTA feature is permanently disabled! I'll bet Eldon has suggested this as a solution to all their OTA problems.

[David_Levin]

A second example is the belief that removing a listed feature is a way to fix the bug in the 921.

I think caller-id will be the next feature to mysteriously dissappear from the list.

[Mike123abc]

Dish is caught in a bad place right now, what to do? Do they scrap Eldon and try to either do the fixes internally or contract them out? The learning curve for the box is huge. Remember they program the hardware (FPAs) in addition to the software. It is a very complex set of interactions. Obviously (for now) they think it would be faster to have Eldon try to fix the bugs rather than trying to bring in a new team.

I know people keep pointing at TiVo, but you have to remember TiVo has been doing this type of stuff for many years, and that type of experience is very difficult to suddenly replicate. It is much easier taking working (and debugged) software and port it to a new box and work to get out the bugs with new hardware interaction.

I just do not see an easy solution at this time. All the blustering in this thread about taking the job away from Eldon and such are probably not being realistic considering the learning curve and time frame desired. If the project were to be given to a crack team of experts (lets say Dish bought TiVo), I bet it would take 6 months minimum before the learning curve was over and real improvements were made in the box. But, of course this crack team of experts is not available to Dish. So, they have the option of continuing working with Eldon, or bringing in a new team and probably waiting a year before major progress could be made.

[Mark Lamutt]

The meeting was very good, and based on it, I'm going to be making a few minor changes in this forum. Look for a new announcement at the top of the forum either later tonight or tomorrow morning detailing the changes. A lot of the bug report posts are missing key pieces of information that need to be included.

More later, but for now, be aware that your posts in this forum are having a much larger impact than you know and can see. They are making a larger impact than even I was aware of.

[chuckbernard]

As far as OTA, I'll live without the program guide data (it's available from my newspaper) FOR NOW. I would like some real bugs fixed first.

1. Channels that appear to add, but only display a black screen and no audio

example is channel 48 (50.1,50.2,50.3) in LA

2. Channels that work fine except you cannot use any PVR function with them

example is channel 28.1 (KCET) in Los Angeles

3. Channels that cannot be added to the guide despite strong signal

example is Channel 66 (s/b channel 13-1) UPN channel in Los Angeles

Thats my OTA list.


I agree completely. At this point the #1 issue with is with OTA channels which cannot be viewed! No Olympics this year if they can't get my local NBC HD station, with a signal strength of 125, to appear more than a black screen! (KRNV NBC in Reno Nevada. no PSIP)

The fact that it gets confused and thinks that it is viewing one channel while actually watching another is annoying but can be worked around.

The guide and other features will be nice later on. For now, I'd just like to watch TV when I turn it on.

//Chuck

[fjerina]

Not sure if this is a bug or something that I have to setup, but, I used to see a red dot by a program in the guide which I have set to record, now, with L189 I don't see it. So what is the situation???

[SimpleSimon]

The meeting was very good, and based on it, I'm going to be making a few minor changes in this forum. Look for a new announcement at the top of the forum either later tonight or tomorrow morning detailing the changes. A lot of the bug report posts are missing key pieces of information that need to be included.

More later, but for now, be aware that your posts in this forum are having a much larger impact than you know and can see. They are making a larger impact than even I was aware of.
And the part I've bolded is where 98% of my frustration is coming from, and I'll wager much of the other member's frustrations.

Other than the little dribbles that they let you give us, all the communication is one-way. We, the "gamma" testers that post here are mostly tech-savvy people that are actually capable of understanding a response from the team.

Even something like: "Yup, the stretch modes aren't right yet - we'll fix them the next time we're in the data definition module" would go a long way towards convincing us that the development team is actually listening.

Finally, if I may be so bold, it would be really nice if there was a way of treating our Bug Reports as "Incidents" - with controlled posting as opposed to open threads that can get out of hand. I do not know what this forum software is capable of, but a moderator-only "Bug Status" forum where Eldon can post replies (even if via a moderator) would be really, really, good!

[Mark Lamutt]

I'll look into that, Simon. I don't know if it's possible or not from this end with VBBS, but I might be able to hack something together. The only downside to it will be many duplicate bug reports.

I certainly understand the one sided-communication issue. I run into that wall myself quite a bit. I'll post more about this later in the new announcement. For now, though, there are many people reading every post in this forum on a daily basis, and every bug report that has the necessary information is immediately getting logged.

[jsanders]

The one way communication thing is frustrating, but I sure understand it. I had direct contact with customers in Japan on a product I worked on a few years ago. Very frustrating. They did the stupidest stuff. They set the elevation mask for searching for a GPS satellite to 80 degrees, and then complained that the unit couldn't find a satellite. Setting that parameter tied both arms and legs behind the receiver's back. Direct access to me, was a disaster. The customer wants so much attention and harasses you to the point that you can't get any work done.....

Some sort of a liason is very appropriate to close the loop.

If our bug reports don't have enough information (a lot of us aren't effective communicators here), then an anonymous response from a liason to focus the data, explain how to reproduce, etc.. would be extremely helpful in closing the loop.

If anything, an anonymous account, verified by DBSTalk, which doesn't contain any email addresses or ways to private message the individual could be helpful to provide limited feedback. It would be a "not good" if we started getting some level of feedback in the form of information requests that resulted in some poor developer getting a thousand emails and a few hundred private messages.

The other danger is that people start to reply to requests for information by fishing for new information, or trying to start a level of interaction that is distracting for the liason. At the very least, the signature should read something like, "This post is not meant only for a request for the aforementioned information, any other questions will not be replied to." I don't know if people will be able to control themselves. Look at the last poll for L186 requesting information on people having problems loosing their channels on reboot. Look at how many replies just tell you what was on their mind at the time (that was related to the topic) vs. actually answering the proposed question with the specific details requested.

It is a two edged sword. I think you have done a great job at moderating this message board Mark.

[SimpleSimon]

Yes, there are risks with 2-way communications, but it CAN be done. I've done it and have the awards to prove it.

Places like E* and other "consumer" support outfits can't seem to get it right (maybe it just can NOT be done right :().

[boylehome]

Caller -ID will remain. It is just a matter of time, and a bug fix, to get it perfect. I had issues with caller-ID with other receivers 721 and 501. Eventual software updates resolved the problems.

[dishbacker]

Along with the spirit of this thread... Mark, any hints on what might be coming in L187?

[Mark Lamutt]

Not yet...I'm sure it will be talked about during the tech forum next Monday.

[boylehome]

The meeting was very good, and based on it, I'm going to be making a few minor changes in this forum. Look for a new announcement at the top of the forum either later tonight or tomorrow morning detailing the changes. A lot of the bug report posts are missing key pieces of information that need to be included.

More later, but for now, be aware that your posts in this forum are having a much larger impact than you know and can see. They are making a larger impact than even I was aware of.Thank for your efforts, Mark. :hurah:

[boylehome]

Not sure if this is a bug or something that I have to setup, but, I used to see a red dot by a program in the guide which I have set to record, now, with L189 I don't see it. So what is the situation???
Are you sure that you have L189? Is it L186? I still get the red dots in my channel guide but sometimes I have to actually land on the channel with the active timer.

[Scooters]

Mark: Is there any chance that you can talk Eldon into giving you some type of (weekly) feedback that could be posted? Just a paragraph or two would be helpful and would cut down multiple posts/frustration, etc.

I know that playing Eldon all their cards could hurt a competitive advantage. On the other hand, I assume that DTV and Tivo folks are reading the forums too and know what the problems are with the 921.

Simple things could be said like:
"Eldon understands and is working on problem with locking on strong "green" signals. PSIP is needed in this software version for proper lock. Those with lock problems, please advise if the station's PSIP time clock is set properly." .... or whatever the problem/ solution/ issue de jour may be.

... for what it's worth.

[markcollins]

don't you understand yet ,you are paying your monthly fee and that is all that counts!

[Mark Lamutt]

I'll see what I can do on that front, Scooters. No promises, but we'll see.

[Mark Lamutt]

I have instituted the "ALL BUG REPORTS MUST BE POLLS" rule, and have updated the forum rules announcement accordingly. You will also notice a 3rd forum in the 921 section - "921 Soon To Be Deleted" - all bug reports that don't follow the posting rules will be moved to this forum where they will reside for about a week before I delete them. I'm giving the week long period so that all of the report text doesn't have to be retyped by the poster. If the report isn't posted correctly in the bug reports forum in that week period, then I will delete it.

I have posted instructions for posting a poll in a stickied thread at the top of the bug reports forum, for those that don't know how to post polls here.