New rules for airline flight and computers

[DonLandis]

Just spent the last several days flying all over the country and learned a few "new rules"

Lap top computers-
May no longer use a wireless mouse.
Can no longer use a wireless internet connection where cell phone use is allowed.
Can no longer use a PDA with wireless system.
Blue tooth devices are now declared illegal
GPS receivers are low listed illegal

Small TV sets or laptops with TV tuners in them are illegal

Small FM and AM radios are now illegal on board


Still legal are small portable DVD players and portable CD players.

Don't know about gameboys and other electronic games but I beluieve these are still allowed.


What's new- AirTran is now offering in flight WiFi 802.11b for all laptops and PDA's that have a built in wifi connection.
What I fail to understand is the airlines are complaining that wireless devices are interferring with the plane's navigation and communications system which I do believe has technical possibilities but then how can they sell WIFI service? Yes with AirTran, I do believe this wifi connect time is a pay as you go service. I have the ad here so I will do more research on it from the subscription company partner and report back. If anyone else has tried this let us know how you liked it.


Finally, I don't know if this is new or not but if you fly lots of one way hops you get targeted for special TSA security strip search. It happened to me and while the lady who told me to wait for the TSA agent said I was randomly selected I found it odd that being selected at random for this extra search, for me was 100% of my flights. Finally one officer said it was the multiple one way flights in a day and over several days that put me on the hot list. Some airports were worse than others. It only took an extra 15 minutes so no big deal as I planned plenty of time for the inspection.
They didn't do too much with the laptop but nearly disected my broadcast camera in Baltimore. Others just looked inside the case and recognized what it was.

[Mark Holtz]

The key phrase is "wireless".

I remember reading an article on this years ago. The TVs, FM radios, and cell phones, in order to GET the signal, have to generate a internal frequency in order to tune in a frequency. Here is the PDF from the FAA. (http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/acs/ac91211a.pdf)

[MikeSoltis]

Should we be with George Carlin on this? "It's just another way for them to ---- with you "
Probably the biggest problem with using cell phones (as sanitized in the FAA bulletin) is that your phone would cross so many systems so quickly that you couldn't be accurately BILLED for the use. Just sugarcoat that with 'safety' and like the sheep we are, we all buy it.

The only way to truly fly safely is to not fly :)

[SimpleSimon]

Actually, the problem with using a cell phone in the air is more the fact that you'd be hitting too many cells at the same time, thereby confusing things.

On the ground, you're only going to be hitting a few cells - that are all talking to each other anyway. From 6 miles up, you could easily hit hundreds of cells that don't necessarily connect with each other for control purposes.

The thing that gets me is Don saying: "Can no longer use a wireless internet connection where cell phone use is allowed."

Yet, AirTrans is actually selling wireless internet connections. Something wrong there.

[DonLandis]

I fully understand the technical problems with cell phone technology from a phone located high over the grid. The technology is designed to handle a cell signal from several adjacent cells but not from many non adjacent cells. The same problem happens with two or more cell phones that have the same signature and both get turned on at the same time. If next to each other, fine, but when you use them apart from each other trouble on how to route the signal is an issue. Inside a plane, the aircraft communications needs to be the only one in use. I have a similar problem and need to have all people within 30 feet of my camera shut off cell phones when shooting. I can hear them if they don't . Some people think that a silent ring will be OK but it's the RF signature that is the problem not the ring. If a cell phone comes close to my camera I can hear it's signature signal! I'm sure this is a problem with aircraft as well.

What I was surprised with it how they now can do 802.11b on the aircraft since they ban all other forms of wireless. Imagine 30 people accessing the WIFI... It could get messy bundle of RF in the plane.

Here's the link and again, I haven't had a free moment to read up on it yet-

www.airpath.net . or 1-866-7airpath

[RichW]

"Actually, the problem with using a cell phone in the air is more the fact that you'd be hitting too many cells at the same time, thereby confusing things."

Exactly correct. Even if you were in a balloon where the radio would not interfere with the (non-exitant) avionics you cpuld degrade the cell system by hitting too many cells at once.

Anything that has a local rf oscillator in itg can pose a problem to the avionics in an aircraft, especially the navigation system. The liklihood is actually small, but still significant enough to pose a safety hazard. Since portable radios have local oscillators, that is why they have always been banned on airplanes.

The airlines will permit certain wireless uses after they go through type acceptance, which generally means testing on all types of aircraft on all routes.

[SimpleSimon]

Don - I just ran the Airpath website. NOTHING there about in-air services. They DO some airport hotspot stuff, but that's all I saw.

I just can't see any possibility of using 2.4GHz in an aircraft. I even worry about WiFi laptops where someone forgets to kill the interface. Maybe those cheap little WiFi finders can be used on-board to detect it.

[FTA Michael]

It's pretty basic. Pilots are hypersensitive to anything that broadcasts, period. When these devices are tested in labs, it's easy to prove that they (some of them, anyway) can't cause interference, but anecdotal tales and the worry that a damaged device could cause problems lead to rules like these.

If an airline sets up WiFi, that means it's had a chance to do extensive testing with its access point and test receivers, thereby proving to themselves that it absolutely won't interfere with anything important. And they have that financial incentive. :)

[DonLandis]

OK. Been working too much to read through their web site. actually I had hoped someone here had the answer. The advertising I caught on the fly led me to believe it was for in flight.

The only thing I do recall is Delta's seat phones have an RJ11 jacks and some sort of deal with aol. Very expensive though.

BTW- some time ago, maybe 9 month, I tested my T-Mobile Sierra air card on a flight just to see and the signal meter was zero at the 27,000 ft level where they said it was OK to turn on the laptops.

[DonLandis]

RichW-
Sidebar comment on cell phones:

Several years ago I owned two cell phones, both the original Motorola Flip phone series. It was still possible with these to clone them and I did. :) I knew that to keep from getting caught and having my fingers smacked, I needed to make sure only one phone was ever turned on at the same time. I kept one in the car and the other at my desk in my office. Then one day I left the office and forgot to turn the desk phone off. It didn't take them long to contact me and advise that they felt my phone had been cloned. I did a quick oh my gosh what do I do now routine and was advised to watch my bill and they would be tracking my calls locations closely. Obviously that scared me into getting rid of the second flip phone. It was time to upgrade anyway. The newer phone I upgraded to was clone proof.

[BarryO]

Don,

I log about 80,000 miles a year in the air; most of these are not "new" at all --

Lap top computers-
May no longer use a wireless mouse.
Can no longer use a wireless internet connection where cell phone use is allowed.
Can no longer use a PDA with wireless system.
Blue tooth devices are now declared illegal

Wireless mice have been prohibited, on most airlines, since wireless mice have been around. And there's a general pre-disposition against any wireless system on aircraft by the airline industry, until they prove to their own satisfaction that they won't interfere with aircraft systems. The computing industry is engaging with the airline industry to satisfy their concerns about 802.11, but is not quite there yet with all of them. At one point the airlines seemed to be leaning toward banning operation of wireless-equipped laptops and PDA at all, but were satisfied that wireless operation could be disabled on them easily.

GPS receivers are low listed illegal
True on most airlines; even aviation-certified ones that pilots sometimes carry as backups. i think it has more to do with worries that some bozo will start screaming that the airplane is going in the wrong direction, then with anything else.

Small TV sets or laptops with TV tuners in them are illegal

Small FM and AM radios are now illegal on board

These always have been, as long as I've been flying (~40 years). Some of the internal oscillators in TV and FM receivers can generate frequencies in the aeronautical bands, and cases of interference have been documented.


Still legal are small portable DVD players and portable CD players.
For some reason, this is not true on most European carriers. They ban anything with a laser pickup; i.e., DVD and CD drives. 'don't know why.

What's new- AirTran is now offering in flight WiFi 802.11b for all laptops and PDA's that have a built in wifi connection.
What I fail to understand is the airlines are complaining that wireless devices are interferring with the plane's navigation and communications system which I do believe has technical possibilities but then how can they sell WIFI service?
AirTran finished enough technical due diligence to satisfiy themselves that it was safe. Lufthansa is doing this too. Like i said these guys tend to err on the side of cauion, as mistakes in this industry tend to have hugely tragic consequences.

Finally, I don't know if this is new or not but if you fly lots of one way hops you get targeted for special TSA security strip search.

Uh, even just a single one-way ticket will make you eligible for the TSA's special body-cavity search. 'same thing if you pay cash for your tickets. The CAPPS system (Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System) flags you as someone deserving extra scrutiny, and a special mark is put on your boarding pass. The TSA guys see this and send you over to the grope-and-poke line.

My wife and daughter were travelling one-way awhile back and I warned them about this; they kinda blew me off but admitted i was right when they experienced the type of treatment they got.

Since alot of times a round-trip ticket will only cost $20 more than a one-way, I'll sometimes buy a round-trip just to avoid the extra security hassle.

'recommend www.flyertalk.com for everything you wanted to know about flying.

[SimpleSimon]

The whole one-way vs. round-trip distinction has been worthless ever since word first got out about it many many months ago.

The bad guys are now just going to spend that extra $20-100 for the round-trip. Duh.

Another example of how frelling incompetent the TSA and associated agencies are. :(

[SAEMike]

Using anything that sends or recieves a signal has always been outlawed, now there are just more things that send or recieve signals.

[DonLandis]

Well, I have been using a wireless mouse since ??? can't remember and this was the first time I recall they made me put it away. It was also the first time I was asked not to use the GPS device and have carried it and used it on many flights. WEven had one flight attendant sit with me and ask all sorts of questions about how it worked. Guess not anymore. I have one of the EarthMate units on my laptop. I mainly carry it for rental cars I get. My own van has a Kenwood system built in and that is the best of the best in GPS.

I do suspect that soon one day the airlines will make a way to supply high speed internet while in flight, maybe for first class first and soon plane wide. The best way would be an RJ45 in the seat. That may resolve all the negatives. I was curious about the ad I saw for airtran though where wifi was proposed. Guess that is a ways off yet.

The good news about the detailed one way ticket thing is that I jumped way ahead of the line but was about even by the time they got done. Hey, I didn't mind because I allowed for the extra time as I suspected I would be targeted.

Thanks everyone for all your experience.