Dish PQ

[js33]

Is everyone here that uses Dish happy with the Picture Quality? I just switched from DTV to Dish a week ago and I must say the picture quality on Dish compared to DTV is OK to downright aweful. DTV had some compression but you hardly noticed it. ON Dish I can see it all the time and it really degrades the picture on some channels more than others. Also I have it hooked up through svideo which made the DTV picture really nice. On Dish it hardly makes any difference compared to regular composite signal.

I have a 522 dual tuner on the Living room TV and 510's in the bedrooms.

I'm giving Dish the benefit of a duobt but it's just hard to accept that their picture quality is so bad caompared to DTV.

Is it the signal from the Sat that is bad or is the decoder in their receivers just bad?

If it is the sat signal are there any plans to use less compression or is that the best it will get?

I will give Dish a month or so but I will probably wind up switching back to DTV to regain the picture quality lost with Dish.

I do like the UHF remotes and the DVRs are OK except you can only record what you are watching. But I usually just use the DVR to record things while I'm sleeping.

Cheers,
JS

[Chris Walker]

There's probably something wrong with your setup or connections. Dish's PQ at the current time(I'd say for the past 3 years) is noticeably better than Directv's. You should have seen an IMPROVEMENT in switching, not a downgrade. Call your installer and have them come back out to tweak.

[js33]

No I don't believe there is anything wrong with the install. All the channels work and some look pretty good. It just that there seems to be more compression on Dish than there was on DTV and that has to be due to the Dish system and not the install. On DTV I was always impressed with my picture quality compared to relatives, one that already had Dish and the other Comcast cable. Now my once pristine picture is back to only an average and bland picture. It could be due to the difference in the receivers also but the rec I had with DTV was only a plain Hughes receiver with no DVR but the picture was incredible. Now I have a fancy dual tuner 522 with DVR and I get an average and sometimes degraded picture. I know what I'm seeing are mpeg2 compression artifacts but with DTV I never noticed them.

I don't think there is anything the installer could do to improve the picture. I just know that I had a very good picture with DTV and now have a so so picture. The signal levels on the transpoder setup are all 100 or higher (it goes up to 125). It just has to be that Dish uses more compression to fit more channels in. I do get a handful of channels that weren't on DTV.

Cheers,
JS

[mikeinaustin]

No I don't believe there is anything wrong with the install. All the channels work and some look pretty good. It just that there seems to be more compression on Dish than there was on DTV and that has to be due to the Dish system and not the install. On DTV I was always impressed with my picture quality compared to relatives, one that already had Dish and the other Comcast cable. Now my once pristine picture is back to only an average and bland picture. It could be due to the difference in the receivers also but the rec I had with DTV was only a plain Hughes receiver with no DVR but the picture was incredible. Now I have a fancy dual tuner 522 with DVR and I get an average and sometimes degraded picture. I know what I'm seeing are mpeg2 compression artifacts but with DTV I never noticed them.

I don't think there is anything the installer could do to improve the picture. I just know that I had a very good picture with DTV and now have a so so picture. The signal levels on the transpoder setup are all 100 or higher (it goes up to 125). It just has to be that Dish uses more compression to fit more channels in. I do get a handful of channels that weren't on DTV.

Cheers,
JS

read this about direct tv picture quality and their hd feeds (just happened this month i believe):

DirecTV goes to 3 HD channels per transponder!
As of today, DirecTV has HBO HD, Showtime HD, and HDNet Movies on the same transponder (C-10). It appears they are still sharing the same bandwidth as 2 channels did on a transponder, roughly 28mb/s.

I'll continue to monitor bitrates at http://www.widemovies.com/dfwbitrate.html

I took a quick sample and got the following...

HBO HD 13.9mb/s
Showtime HD 6.5mb/s (lowest I've ever recorded)
HDNet Movies 7.8mb/s (lowest for HDNet Movies I've ever recorded)

[js33]

Well that is mostly stated for HDTV which I don't have yet. I would like to see a comparison of Dish and DTV SD bitrates. All I know is the DTV picture I had just last Monday was superior on every channel especially the locals. Also I am in the DFW area by the way.

Cheers,
JS

[FarNorth]

If the picture was so great, why did you switch?

[js33]

Well that's a good question. First of all since they are both DBS systems I expected the picture to look the same. But I was wrong.

The reason I switched was because Dish offered a 4 room install with free equipment for new subscribers. Also they were generous in that they gave me 1-522(Dual tuner DVR) and 2-510's (Single Tuner DVRs with UHF remotes) installed free. With DTV you have to buy the equipment however I now find that DTV w/TiVOs are superior as well in that you can record 2 different channels and watch a 3rd channel at the same time.

Dish overall is not bad and they did what they said they would if only there picture quality was the same I would be happy.

Also Dish does offer a handful of channels that aren't on DTV yet and their pricing is a little cheaper.

I found this interesting. Apparently I'm not the only one to feel this way.
http://www.satelliteguys.us/archive/index.php/t-1955.html

CHeers,
JS

[SimpleSimon]

... I now find that DTV w/TiVOs are superior as well in that you can record 2 different channels and watch a 3rd channel at the same time. ...Wow! A THREE tuner receiver. An industry first. What's the model number?

[js33]

Wow! A THREE tuner receiver. An industry first. What's the model number?

Well actually you can record 2 shows at once while watching a 3rd recorded show but that's still 3 at once.

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/imagine/TIVOQA.dsp#buy

Can the DIRECTV DVR record two shows at once?

Yes, the DIRECTV DVR can record two shows at once. In fact, it can even record two shows while you watch a third, previously recorded show. To take full advantage of this feature, you'll need to ensure that two (2) satellite inputs from a dual-LNB DIRECTV System dish antenna are connected to the DIRECTV DVR.

I have a dual 522 but can only record on one tuner while I watch the 2nd channel or record on both at once but not able to watch anything other than what's being recorded.

Cheers,
JS

[carmangary]

I just got Dish and I agree that the PQ is pretty bad. The regular old analog cable I had before I switched yielded a MUCH cleaner picture. I have the 811 and 301 box. It doesn't look so bad on the 301 box but the TV is smaller (25"). With the 811 and my 34", most SD channels just look down right crappy compared to what a picture should look like. The HD channels look fine to me. The problem with the picture I see on SD is the compression and it looks much like a low compression video on a computer. Not much better than 320x240 in some cases.

I noticed that if I switch to from component to Svideo when looking at the SD channels I get a better picture. (A little better anyway). Also, I can use my Toshibas stretch mode when I go to Svideo which is a lotter better than the 811s.

[khearrean]

I must say that I agree with our guests on this issue. While the HD PQ via my 811 looks fantastic (using DVI), most other SD channels are just plain poor. To me, this seems more evident since the 2.80 software upgrade, but that may also only be coincidental. For reasons I 've stated many times before in this forum, I view my locals via analog cable thru my S VCR tuner & the resultant PQ is far superior to most all SD channels via Dish. I also use the optimum hook-ups (DVI for SAT) with only the best quality cabling & still get a very disappointing PQ. I've been with Dish for 8 years, but only in the last several months have I noticed these problems. :mad:

Ken

[Jason Nipp]

Well actually you can record 2 shows at once while watching a 3rd recorded show but that's still 3 at once.

I have a dual 522 but can only record on one tuner while I watch the 2nd channel or record on both at once but not able to watch anything other than what's being recorded.

Not wanting to take side on this...but would like to point out 2 missed facts:
1.) The 522 recently took a software update that allows single user mode and you can record 2 shows at once. I haven't seen this record 2 and watch a 3rd at once thingy so right not I can't say it's true.
2.) MPEG 2, which Dish uses, is pretty much the world standard. DirecTV uses a modified MPEG 1.5 variant...this is a custom compression protocol.

All in all there are many users in here that have both DirecTV and Dish, hell some have Direct, Dish, and Voom. I haven't heard any complaints from these mutiluser folks yet...Maybe one of these folks should speak up to the PQ of each on a side by side basis...Yes I agree some of the channels are way over compressed...But one has to observe and question if this is Dish or the station provider doing the overcompression.

I believe, with the exception of the HD channels,.....Dish has actually gotten better over the last year or so. I never had DirecTV...But I did have USSB which merged with D*. I know what USSB's quality was like.

To sum it up my rant...if your that miserable with the PQ of Dish and you feel that the equipment is substandard garbage...then by all means pick up the phone and call Dish...tell them they suck and to send you the fancy brown boxes so you can return the receivers and switch unit, then cancel, and go back to D* and pay out the wazoo for their services and more reliable DVR's.

Jason

[FarNorth]

<< 1.) The 522 recently took a software update that allows single user mode and you can record 2 shows at once. I haven't seen this record 2 and watch a 3rd at once thingy so right not I can't say it's true. >>

My 921 does this, all 3 in HD. Of course, it wasn't free but neither is Direct's HD-Tivo.

[Jason Nipp]

<< 1.) The 522 recently took a software update that allows single user mode and you can record 2 shows at once. I haven't seen this record 2 and watch a 3rd at once thingy so right not I can't say it's true. >>

My 921 does this, all 3 in HD. Of course, it wasn't free but neither is Direct's HD-Tivo.

Actually...doesn't the 921 go a step further than the DirecTivo? By this I mean, doesn't the 921 technically has 3 tuners...2 8PSK Sat and 1 8VSB OTA tuner. I don't have a 921 so I'm just making an assumption...correct me if I am wrong. Couldn't you technically record 2 live sat feeds and watch 1 live OTA feed simultaneously? Or any combo of the three? The Tivo unit mentioned allows recording 2 live feed and 1 playback from HDD simultaneously which is not the same thing.

Jason

[Ron Barry]

I have a dual 522 but can only record on one tuner while I watch the 2nd channel or record on both at once but not able to watch anything other than what's being recorded.


Is this true with the 522? If you are recording two streams you cannot watch a pre-recorded show? Even in Dual mode, I would find this hard to believe and if it is the case a serious limitation.

As to PQ, I think we need more info in terms of hows you have yours set up and where you are noticing a huge drop in PQ? Is it on the remote TV hooked to the 522 or your local one? What channels are you noticing are the worse in terms of PQ? Do you have an premimums? Did you change TV at this time to a larger set? How is your TV connected to the 522?

DTV and Dish PQ has been discussed numerous times. Do a search and you will find all sorts of threads on the subject. PQ is very subject and the general consensus is that Dish and DTV or pretty close in terms of PQ on SD.

[SimpleSimon]

The original post of record 2 and watch a 3rd is common across several makes and models of DVR. 522, 721, and 921 for E* can all do that.

In fact, the 522 in dual mode can be recording 2 and watching 2 other previously recorded shows. I can do the same with my 921 using PiP. I suspect the 721 can do it, too.

As for recording 3 (2 satellite, one OTA) using the 921, I'm almost certain that's not possible. Apparently the 921 can only see 2 things at once - and when it comes to OTA, even that's questionable for many users.

[garypen]

Actually...doesn't the 921 go a step further than the DirecTivo? By this I mean, doesn't the 921 technically has 3 tuners...2 8PSK Sat and 1 8VSB OTA tuner. I don't have a 921 so I'm just making an assumption...correct me if I am wrong. Couldn't you technically record 2 live sat feeds and watch 1 live OTA feed simultaneously? Or any combo of the three? The Tivo unit mentioned allows recording 2 live feed and 1 playback from HDD simultaneously which is not the same thing.

JasonActually The HD DirecTivo goes two steps further than the 921 by having TWO OTA tuners, instead of the 921's one. And, they actually can record OTA HD to the hdd. The 921 apparently still finds that sort of thing beyond its grasp.

[garypen]

go back to D* and pay out the wazoo for their services and more reliable DVR's.

JasonWhy do people still say this? I've pointed out many times that there are more channels (not counting the junk) on D's $40 package than E's. (14, to be exact.)

[Cholly]

Why do people still say this? I've pointed out many times that there are more channels (not counting the junk) on D's $40 package than E's. (14, to be exact.)
'Cause they want to pull your chain! !rolling

[Jason Nipp]

Why do people still say this? I've pointed out many times that there are more channels (not counting the junk) on D's $40 package than E's. (14, to be exact.)

gp...more or less referring to basics...I chose a lower monthly bill and have AT60...which is only $29 per month...D*'s lowest package is $10 more...Sorry I'm budget minded 3 kids and all you know.

And I was making a point...If he was so happy why'd he switch?

[garypen]

'Cause they want to pull your chain! !rollingConsider it pulled.:D

[garypen]

gp...more or less referring to basics...I chose a lower monthly bill and have AT60...which is only $29 per month...D*'s lowest package is $10 more...Sorry I'm budget minded 3 kids and all you know. In that case, I recommend Comcast Lifeline basic for like $11. :D

And I was making a point...If he was so happy why'd he switch? An excellent point it is!

[Jason Nipp]

In that case, I recommend Comcast Lifeline basic for like $11. :D

An excellent point it is!

Haven't lived in Comcast service area in many years...My available provider is Insight and their equipment is archaic. When I first moved out here I had cable for a whole whopping 3 days. Their SD basic package is like $40 a month for 40 channels...better locals reception by sticking a foil covered coat hanger in my TV's RF port :) . Their digital package is like $70.

Now I said I was budget minded not completely tasteless...I have quality standards :rolleyes: ...besides Gary...you and I have talked enough offline for you to realize I support your reasons for preferring D*... :) and in case you missed it, I did say that D*'s DVR is more reliable. :D...just that you'd pay out the wazoo for their services and equipment, now rephrasing to put an emphasis on equipment.

[drjlo]

Except for Dish HD, SD channels are indeed pretty poor. This becomes more and more evident as your TV gets bigger and more resolving. For example, my brother-in-law just switched from 36" TV to 60" TV, and SD became almost unwatcheable on DISH through same DISH setup.

If you compare same SD channels from DISH vs. OTA antenna, it's not even funny how much worse DISH SD PQ is. The culprit, of course, is the high compression. DISH knows (and it's true sadly) that "most" people will pay for 500 channels of Sh*& vs. 50 channels of great PQ...

[garypen]

This becomes more and more evident as your TV gets bigger and more resolving.My TV hasn't resolved a thing, except maybe what to do with my free time.

[khearrean]

Except for Dish HD, SD channels are indeed pretty poor. This becomes more and more evident as your TV gets bigger and more resolving. For example, my brother-in-law just switched from 36" TV to 60" TV, and SD became almost unwatcheable on DISH through same DISH setup.

If you compare same SD channels from DISH vs. OTA antenna, it's not even funny how much worse DISH SD PQ is. The culprit, of course, is the high compression. DISH knows (and it's true sadly) that "most" people will pay for 500 channels of Sh*& vs. 50 channels of great PQ...

Absolutely correct!!!

Ken

[DCSholtis]

Actually...doesn't the 921 go a step further than the DirecTivo? By this I mean, doesn't the 921 technically has 3 tuners...2 8PSK Sat and 1 8VSB OTA tuner. I don't have a 921 so I'm just making an assumption...correct me if I am wrong. Couldn't you technically record 2 live sat feeds and watch 1 live OTA feed simultaneously? Or any combo of the three? The Tivo unit mentioned allows recording 2 live feed and 1 playback from HDD simultaneously which is not the same thing.

Jason

The HD Tivo TECHNICALLY has 4 tuners. 2 Sat tuners and the OTA Antenna connection actually splits into 2 OTA tuners. You can record any combo of the 2 while watching live TV on a 3rd tuner. Ya what Garypen said..:D

[Sammers]

I have to agree with the poor PQ on Dish. I've been a subscriber for the past 5 years - happy with the service, but seems like PQ has really gone down in the past 6-mos to a year.

I just upgraded to a 721 from a 501 - mainly for added features, two tuner, etc. but also hoping for improvement in PQ - No such luck! Although I do like the 721.

At the same time, I did the superdish upgrade to get locals - the PQ on these stations are really bad - I don't know much about compression - but the picture I see just looks very "computerized" - lots little blocks in the picture, especially in the grey or darker scales. Looks like a bad quality computer image.

Any word from Dish that they have plans to improve this soon??

Side note - anyone else have 721 where the hard drive never stops running - even after powered off for hours??

[carmangary]

When I swithed from cable to dish last month or so and saw how some channels look computerized, as you said, I was so annoyed. I have always heard how satellite was supposed to have a superior picture due to be 100% digitial. The only 2 things keeping me from switching back to my analog cable are the HDTV channels and the PPV sports.

I think it is just downright unacceptible for them to be broadcasting a signal of such poor quality especially in these times when everyone is being converted to HD. What the heck is the point in having HDTV if dish is going to broadcast the other channels in less than SD quality!? Grrrrr!

[Ron Barry]

Sure getting a lot of guests posting on this thread.... This thread has a big danger of rat holeing for sure.


I think it is just downright unacceptible for them to be broadcasting a signal of such poor quality especially in these times when everyone is being converted to HD. What the heck is the point in having HDTV if dish is going to broadcast the other channels in less than SD quality!? Grrrrr!


I don't think everyone is being converted to HDTV. Infact it is still a small percentage of homes that have HD.

[garypen]

"Rat holeing" ?

[Jason Nipp]

What Gary asked?

[SimpleSimon]

What Jason asked Gary?

[khearrean]

What SS asked Jason who asked Gary..??

[Chris Walker]

Sure getting a lot of guests posting on this thread.... .

Glad I am not the only one noticing this, I think it's time to disable guest posting. The cable and D* trolls are going to create guest post after guest post in this thread. I'd be willing to bet that the person who originally started this thread is the one behind the other "guests" as well. Sounds like someone just left E* and they are not happy with their decision, sour grapes..

[garypen]

Sounds like someone just left E* and they are not happy with their decision, sour grapes..Yeah.That makes sense. :rolleyes:

[Jason Nipp]

Glad I am not the only one noticing this, I think it's time to disable guest posting. The cable and D* trolls are going to create guest post after guest post in this thread. I'd be willing to bet that the person who originally started this thread is the one behind the other "guests" as well. Sounds like someone just left E* and they are not happy with their decision, sour grapes..

I just asked Chris Blount this morning why guest/anonymous postings are allowed. He commented on how the DBS staff wishes to have an open discussion forum without censorship, within reason, or something like this. I highly respect this, but then I see the anonymous E* bashers troll in. But then again I don't go into the D* forums to see if this happens in the opposite direction either...probably does. Then I remind myself being able to express ones own POV is one of the reasons that make this country so great... :flag: But in this case one shouldn't care about others disagreements with the POV/opinion and shouldn't be so concerned about hiding their Indentity...yada yada yada...


My thoughts,
Jason

[Ron Barry]

"Rat holeing" ?

Rat holeing. In otherwords going way off in a number of different directions. This is what usually happens to PQ threads. They tend to fragment into a number of different areas and at times turn into a pissing contest.

[finniganps]

It seems like most of the negative comments from this thread are posted by "guests"...hmmm

I have been a subscriber of E* since 1999. Started with a 7100 and 3900. Now I have a 721 and 508. I have NOT had any PQ problems at all with E*. If anything, perhaps the quality has improved.....

[Ron Barry]

I just asked Chris Blount this morning why guest/anonymous postings are allowed. He commented on how the DBS staff wishes to have an open discussion forum without censorship, within reason, or something like this. I highly respect this, but then I see the anonymous E* bashers troll in. But then again I don't go into the D* forums to see if this happens in the opposite direction either...probably does. Then I remind myself being able to express ones own POV is one of the reasons that make this country so great... :flag: But in this case one shouldn't care about others disagreements with the POV/opinion and shouldn't be so concerned about hiding their Indentity...yada yada yada...


This discussion comes up a lot. It is a double edge sword because at times actually intelligent comments are tossed in by someone that is lurking but does not want to register. The other side of the sword is that someone can stealth in and throw a rock. In some cases where it got bad, one of the admins stated that the different people all came from the same Ip.

If someone feels the need to pretend to be mutiple people to make their point or to bash a company, they need some serious help. In general I have no problem with guest posts, just wanted note the high percentage on this thread and in general I would take the guest opinions in these type of threads with a grain of salt.

[garypen]

It seems like most of the negative comments from this thread are posted by "guests"...hmmm

I have been a subscriber of E* since 1999. Started with a 7100 and 3900. Now I have a 721 and 508. I have NOT had any PQ problems at all with E*. If anything, perhaps the quality has improved.....Hmmm. I started in 1998. I've seen it degrade...quite a bit.

I did see it improve, noticably, shortly before the olympics. It really got my hopes up. But, alas, it was not to be, only to degrade again.

[Jason Nipp]

Hmmm. I started in 1998. I've seen it degrade...quite a bit.

I did see it improve, noticably, shortly before the olympics. It really got my hopes up. But, alas, it was not to be, only to degrade again.

I've been with Dish awhile too...Can't say I completely agree but I do agree in principle. My LIL locals started out as pure crap...they have improved greatly...though I watch OTA more as they are HD and trump LIL quality. I see improvement on some SDs but worsening on others...and we all know about the HD degradation.

Jason

[HZPDX]

Agree with the original poster. Have been a subscriber for more than a year, and there is a definite degradation in PQ (read higher compression) in the past 6 months or so. I began to notice this as a subtle "shadow" or "ghost" around smaller letters on the screen. In close examination you can clearly see the pixelation. Over the air SD signals do not show this artifact.

BTW, I called Dish and, as expected, they only claim that they use "MPEG2" compression and there is no picture degradation. Once I told them there are different compression rates within MPEG2, they plead complete ignorance. I suppose we are out of luck until the day Joe 6-pack complains about PQ! Of course I did the only thing that is reasonable: Informed tech support that if this continues, I'll cancel my subscription at the end of the current term.

I wonder if they could do away with many of those PPV and AUDIO/CD channels and use the bandwidth to improve the PQ. Wishful thinking, no?

[mudpup2003]

Is everyone here that uses Dish happy with the Picture Quality? I just switched from DTV to Dish a week ago and I must say the picture quality on Dish compared to DTV is OK to downright aweful. DTV had some compression but you hardly noticed it. ON Dish I can see it all the time and it really degrades the picture on some channels more than others. Also I have it hooked up through svideo which made the DTV picture really nice. On Dish it hardly makes any difference compared to regular composite signal.

I have a 522 dual tuner on the Living room TV and 510's in the bedrooms.

I'm giving Dish the benefit of a duobt but it's just hard to accept that their picture quality is so bad caompared to DTV.

Is it the signal from the Sat that is bad or is the decoder in their receivers just bad?

If it is the sat signal are there any plans to use less compression or is that the best it will get?

I will give Dish a month or so but I will probably wind up switching back to DTV to regain the picture quality lost with Dish.

I do like the UHF remotes and the DVRs are OK except you can only record what you are watching. But I usually just use the DVR to record things while I'm sleeping.

Cheers,
JS

I would say there is a problem with your connections. I have worked for both companies and Dish PQ is far better than DTV but all means.. I currently have both systems in my home and Dish blow DTV PQ away

[mudpup2003]

Except for Dish HD, SD channels are indeed pretty poor. This becomes more and more evident as your TV gets bigger and more resolving. For example, my brother-in-law just switched from 36" TV to 60" TV, and SD became almost unwatcheable on DISH through same DISH setup.

If you compare same SD channels from DISH vs. OTA antenna, it's not even funny how much worse DISH SD PQ is. The culprit, of course, is the high compression. DISH knows (and it's true sadly) that "most" people will pay for 500 channels of Sh*& vs. 50 channels of great PQ...


I have a 60" flat panel. I have dish and DTV both connected. DTV's compressions really shows terrible on this... TNT is horrible as well as a few others... on the flip side Dish SD and HD by far is cleaner... DTV compresses there signal for average TV's 25 to 30. PQ is great at that size, but go larger and DTV falls short, where Dish stays the same.... again all this PQ talk has been around between these 2 forever, however, put both systems side by side on the same large TV and you can see the difference. Also have voom on the same TV, it will be gone PQ on SD is terrible,,,, HD is great.. but it is nice to see all three SAT's and compare, Dish by far has the PQ

[SKoprowski]

Well.here's another unregistered post. I was actually surfing the forum to get info on DISH's HDTV quality. I switched to DISH 2 years ago when I moved across state where the cable rates were so high. I must say that all the channels look good except my local channels (Cleveland area). They are blocky and have constant compression artifacts. I am using a 27inch TV so it isn't that noticable unless you are really close to the TV. I have always accepted it because I don't want to pay another $30.00 a month for TimeWarner cable. I do wish it would get better.

Scott

[Jaded13]

There's probably something wrong with your setup or connections. Dish's PQ at the current time(I'd say for the past 3 years) is noticeably better than Directv's. You should have seen an IMPROVEMENT in switching, not a downgrade. Call your installer and have them come back out to tweak.
just what will they "tweak" its not like dialing in a radio .if he is using s video thats about the best he can do. dish compression IS a factor

[Ron Barry]

just what will they "tweak" its not like dialing in a radio .if he is using s video thats about the best he can do. dish compression IS a factor

Not true... There are a lot of TV adjustments one can make to improve the apperance of the PQ. Example: if you have sharpness cranked up, the artifacts will be much more apperant. Cycling through the different TV modes is a good way to see how TV settings effect perceived PQ.

[Mike D-CO5]

I would say there is a problem with your connections. I have worked for both companies and Dish PQ is far better than DTV but all means.. I currently have both systems in my home and Dish blow DTV PQ away
I agree . When I had both Directv last year and Dish I thought Dish was a much smoother picture with no artifacts in the background like Directv( blocks and pixelation). OF course I also did a home calibration with a tv tuneup video to get my picture it's best. I now have just Dish and a new hd 57 " widescreen tv from Toshiba. It has "movie mode" which I perfer for all my satellite watching via a 921 over a dvi cable. Both sd and hd look great with this tv. I recommend Toshiba for anyone who wants Dish hd tv.

I had a hd Mitsibishi for like a week two years ago, and it looked Godawful for watching my 721 over it. Sent that one back to the store and bought an analog tv instead. The faces would smear all over the screen. I really shopped around till I saw a 51 " Toshiba tv hooked up to an old Dish hd 6000 receiver at Sears and when I saw that Picture it really stood out. I bought that tv ,but not at Sears. I bought one over at the Best Buy website and I supersized it to a 57 ".:D

[Jason Nipp]

OF course I also did a home calibration with a tv tuneup video to get my picture it's best.

OK...I'll buy this statement. In fact I have said in the past that equipment appears to be a major contributor to the performance and PQ. I had ISF calibrate my set soon after I got my 811. I need to have them come out again since P2.69 really changed my display output...and P2.80 yet again looks like it was tweaked...but I hesitate calling at least for awhile since another software realease is scheduled for October and frankly I don't want to spend the money on this if they yet again adjust the DVI output.

Jason

[scooper]

Not true... There are a lot of TV adjustments one can make to improve the apperance of the PQ. Example: if you have sharpness cranked up, the artifacts will be much more apperant. Cycling through the different TV modes is a good way to see how TV settings effect perceived PQ.


ABSOLUTELY !!!!

All you PQ bashers - until you have taken the time to calibrate your picture by one of 3 means ( ESF tech, Avia DVD , or Video Essentials DVD / Digital Video Essentials DVD) - don't talk to me about "poor DBS Picture quality" on your TV, especially if your screen size is 27 inches or less. THose of you with larger screens have a bit more room to complain, and those with HDTV Ready displays have even more room. But even YOU guys should do the calibration first BEFORE you start complaining... MY E* picture on a 27 inch (1998) Sony is breathtaking - even on my locals - the locals are even better when I use my OTA antenna.

[wkomorow]

I have never had DirectTV, but did have cable. I am probably not as discerning as most, but the PQ on Dish is much better than on Time Warner Cable. I find the PQ on my 27 inch set to be fantastic, and the PQ on my projection 57 inch set to be very good. The only problem that I have is with some of my local stations via Dish; on occasions they can be slightly out of focus - mostly I belief because Dish is getting them off-air.

Question - although you say your set-up is OK, are you sure that your dish is not slightly loose. I had a problem with loss of clarity a while a go and a tech came and found my dish was slightly loose and moving ever so slightly with wind. He tightened everything and it has been great ever since.

[scooper]

And so far as comparing D* to E* PQ - On equal TVs, both properly adjusted (see my earlier comments regarding calibration DVDs) - D* will tend to look "sharper, with more vibrant colors, but with more digital artifacts", while E* will tend to look " flatter, not as sharp, but noticeably fewer digital artifacts". BOTH DBS providers are compressing - what's different is the end result they are trying to achieve.

I can't speak about VOOM or HD.

[carmangary]

"Originally Posted by WeeJavaDude
Not true... There are a lot of TV adjustments one can make to improve the apperance of the PQ. Example: if you have sharpness cranked up, the artifacts will be much more apperant. Cycling through the different TV modes is a good way to see how TV settings effect perceived PQ."

Any tweaks made to hide artifacts are nothing more than tweaks to decrease the quality of thour screen to the point where details are washed out. What you are suggesting is analogous to having someone squint their eyes so that they can't see the garbage dump that is a mile behind a beautiful scene. Only problem with this is that the clarity of the beautiful scene suffers because of this.

[scooper]

"Originally Posted by WeeJavaDude
Not true... There are a lot of TV adjustments one can make to improve the apperance of the PQ. Example: if you have sharpness cranked up, the artifacts will be much more apperant. Cycling through the different TV modes is a good way to see how TV settings effect perceived PQ."

Any tweaks made to hide artifacts are nothing more than tweaks to decrease the quality of thour screen to the point where details are washed out. What you are suggesting is analogous to having someone squint their eyes so that they can't see the garbage dump that is a mile behind a beautiful scene. Only problem with this is that the clarity of the beautiful scene suffers because of this.


Carmangary - have you ACTUALLY put your TV through those calibration routines ? If not - you have no clue what you're talking about. Just one small quote from Video Essentials - " Excessive sharpness just adds NOISE to a perfect picture". NOISE - that means your picture is not as good as it should be. Sharpness works by adding high frequency NOISE on the edges. Probably helps on a poor quality analog OTA broadcast, totally unnecessary on a DBS source.

When you run your TV through one of these, let yourself get used to the picture for about a week before making any further adjustments.

I'll go one step further - go read some old posts on www.avsforums.com. If you're comparing TV's on the showroom floor, be advised that the manufacturers/ stores typically put the TVs into what is commonly called "Torch Mode" - this helps the TV stand out on the showroom floor, but is very, very bad for the PQ (not tomention the tube life). NEVER buy a showroom demo TV - insist on getting a new one out of the stockroom.

[Ron Barry]

"Originally Posted by WeeJavaDude
Not true... There are a lot of TV adjustments one can make to improve the apperance of the PQ. Example: if you have sharpness cranked up, the artifacts will be much more apperant. Cycling through the different TV modes is a good way to see how TV settings effect perceived PQ."

Any tweaks made to hide artifacts are nothing more than tweaks to decrease the quality of thour screen to the point where details are washed out. What you are suggesting is analogous to having someone squint their eyes so that they can't see the garbage dump that is a mile behind a beautiful scene. Only problem with this is that the clarity of the beautiful scene suffers because of this.

Sorry, but your analogy is so why off that it is not even worth argueing about. However, you have a right to your opinion.

Well that has not been my experience and definitely not the experience of the majority of the posts I have read. What you are basically saying is that if you have to adjust your TV set to minimize artifacts then something is wrong with your content. My guess is that you have not done any calibration. In the Avia calibration disk they mention that most people have they TV Sharpness set too high removing detail.

Well I not going to get into a pissing match with someone with the guest title. At least do the minimum and register if you want to get in these type of discussions and I am sure a lot of people will be happy to give their opinions.

By the way.. I have a 32" Sony HD Tube and 60" GWII. I have calibrated both of these using the AVIA disk. This improved both SAT PQ and DVD PQ. If you think that a TV comes calibrated optimally you might want to do a bit more searching. Also, based on your argument no RPTV should be ISF calibrated. This is just hiding the artifacts..

[khearrean]

And so far as comparing D* to E* PQ - On equal TVs, both properly adjusted (see my earlier comments regarding calibration DVDs) - D* will tend to look "sharper, with more vibrant colors, but with more digital artifacts", while E* will tend to look " flatter, not as sharp, but noticeably fewer digital artifacts". BOTH DBS providers are compressing - what's different is the end result they are trying to achieve.

This seems to be a pretty good description of the type PQ I'm getting with Dish via my 811. It's so hard to actually describe PQ to someone, but I would say my picture (on SD channels) tends to lack sharpness & detail and is somewhat flat...It's almost similiar to an "oil painting", for lack of a better description. I have calibrated my 51" Hitachi HD RPTV using "Digital Video Essentials". I've posted before though, that this seems to be worse now since 2.80 even though that may be purely coincidental. My HD channels (9420 & up) are great, however.

Ken

[W_Tracy_Parnell]

Just want to throw in my 2 cents. I think the PQ on Dish is mostly excellent on my 35 inch SD. It is far better than any cable system I have seen in my area. I would say I have not compared it to Directv not having used that service. And I won't say I have never seen compression artifacts-they are certainly there. They seem to vary in my experience with the source material-some old tv shows and movies look worse to me. I remember one example was "The Boys From Brazil". For some reason, the compression artifacts were horrible for that one.

Overall though, I would rate the quality as mostly high with occasional exceptions.

[garypen]

Calibrating one's display will make EVERYTHING look better. There is no denying that. The point of this thread is there has been PQ degradation with Dish. That cannot be denied. It's a fact I've seen it go down hill quite a bit since 1998. Locals look especially bad.
For further proof, one needs to simply compare the PQ between a Dsih local, or even CBS-HD with a local OTA SD digital broadcast or local CBS-HD OTA, respectively. You will see what the program is supposed to look like.

[scooper]

Garypen - this is dependent on YOUR locals etc. MY DBS locals look very close to OTA quality (I've done the comparison) - practically indistinguishable. It's also my observation that DBS (E* anyway) HASN'T degraded noticeably since 1998 , at least to me and the programming I watch. But saying something like this is dependent on WHO is doing the viewing on what, so it's basically pointless to argue about it. I will argue the points about properly adjusted sets making a major difference in all your viewing, especially on DBS.

[bytre]

My TV (4 year old mitsubishi 55") has been amateur calibrated (me, with VE and Avia), and PQ is great - on DVD or HD sources. SD quality sucks on Dish, but I'm ok with that - I don't watch SD channels on dish for a stunning experience in picture quality.

When I switched from D* to E* about 4.5 years ago, I ran both side by side for a month or two. On some channels D* was better, E* better on others. This was on a 27" CRT, though.

The best quality SD picture you can see - watch an HD channel through the 480i svideo output and compare your other channels to that.

[bytre]

One last thing - if you do cancel Dish and go back, please give the PQ as your reason. So long as they aren't losing customers due to bad PQ, they won't be terribly concerned about fixing it.

[garypen]

Garypen - this is dependent on YOUR locals etc. MY DBS locals look very close to OTA quality (I've done the comparison) - practically indistinguishable. That's great...for you. ;)
It's also my observation that DBS (E* anyway) HASN'T degraded noticeably since 1998 , at least to me and the programming I watch. But saying something like this is dependent on WHO is doing the viewing on what, so it's basically pointless to argue about it. The differnece is you ust don't notice it. It's there though. Take it from someone who does notice it. (And many others like me.)I will argue the points about properly adjusted sets making a major difference in all your viewing, especially on DBS.No argument from me there. (Well, maybe on the "especially on DBS" point.) It's like a properly tuned car, or a properly EQ'd sound system. The car will perform better on any road, and the sound system will sound better, regardless of musical style.