View Full Version : 811 DD audio
mike6097
10-01-04, 01:23 PM
Hello,
I just got my new 811 today and overall I am impressed with the pic qulaity. However the optical output appears to be messed up. When I connect it to my home theater, all I get is a static buzzing sound. My 522 DD audio always worked flawlessly. Is there any known problems with this and if so, can it be fixed?
Mike G.
Yes the DD output has compatibilty issues with certain receivers. There's supossed to be a fix coming out for this, I just hope it doesn't screw mine up cause it works fine ;)
olgeezer
10-01-04, 01:33 PM
i use DD headphones and the optical out works fine. could have a problem with the 811 the setup or the cables try to check cables and setup before calling tech support.
mike6097
10-01-04, 02:03 PM
Cables are all fine. I reconnected the cable to my 522 and all is fine. Must be an output problem on the 811. Can tech support do anything about this or is just a waiting game?
Thanks,
Mike G.
i use DD headphones and the optical out works fine. could have a problem with the 811 the setup or the cables try to check cables and setup before calling tech support.
Mike6097-
I agree with the above thought...
The setup is the first thing that comes to my mind.
Did you go into the Dolby Digital tab of the setup menu and check the Dolby Digital/PCM option? My 811 came without this option checked.
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 02:09 PM
Wait a few weeks...software releases are coming and this issue is supposed to be addressed. There's a list of incompatible av receivers in a link in the below thread.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=33271&highlight=811+dd
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=32959
Wait a few weeks...software releases are coming and this issue is supposed to be addressed. There's a list of incompatible av receivers in a link in the below thread.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=33271&highlight=811+dd
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=32959
Nippjas-
This surprises me! How can 0's and 1's (digital) be incompatible???
I am not saying you are wrong, I am just confused about how there can be an incompatability with a digital signal! :confused:
Interesting...
Yes the DD output has compatibilty issues with certain receivers. There's supossed to be a fix coming out for this, I just hope it doesn't screw mine up cause it works fine ;)
Here, here! :lol:
Mickdog
10-01-04, 02:37 PM
Nippjas-
This surprises me! How can 0's and 1's (digital) be incompatible???
I am not saying you are wrong, I am just confused about how there can be an incompatability with a digital signal! :confused:
Interesting...
Ahhhh, dont forget the voltage! :eek2:
Voltage?
It is merely rapid pulses of light traveling through a strand of glass. The light is either there or it is not...0's and 1's...digital. What am I missing here? I guess I know just enough about digital to be dangerous :-)
garypen
10-01-04, 03:05 PM
Yes. It's 0's and 1's. But, those 0's and 1's come together to say something using a specific language. If the dialect of that language is off, some receivers will not understand what is being said.
To my knowlegde, their is no voltage in an optical signal. I have no idea what mickdog's referring to.
Mickdog
10-01-04, 03:05 PM
Voltage?
It is merely rapid pulses of light traveling through a strand of glass. The light is either there or it is not...0's and 1's...digital. What am I missing here? I guess I know just enough about digital to be dangerous :-)
Do not forget at the end of the glass is a demodulator which converts the 1's and 0's to a usable electrical signal.
garypen
10-01-04, 03:07 PM
There is no demodulator at the end of the fiber. That circuitry you refer to is internal to the component receiving the signal, as well as the component sending it. The cable merely carries light impulses.
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 03:09 PM
Voltage?
It is merely rapid pulses of light traveling through a strand of glass. The light is either there or it is not...0's and 1's...digital. What am I missing here? I guess I know just enough about digital to be dangerous :-)
He's just messing with another user who will chime in before this thread gets closed.
Also the rumblings from the others having the issue sound something like frequency limitations....yada yada yada...48khz and 96khz....yada yada yada, some rumble about handshake errors since the 1's and 0's your referring to follow a protocol...being processed by a microprocessor controlled encoder....blah...blah...blah...yada...yada...yada ...etc...
My answer to your question is I don't know exactly what is causing the incapability....Only that most of the glitches I have seen to date are software related and that this is supposed to be included in software revision P283 due to roll out to the 811 in late October 2004.
Jason
Mickdog
10-01-04, 03:11 PM
There is no demodulator at the end of the fiber. That circuitry you refer to is internal to the component receiving the signal, as well as the component sending it. The cable merely carries light impulses.
All digital light pulse signals are demodulated at the end to be used in what ever circuitry they are applied to. Read Tacci, it will enlighten you!
There is no demodulator at the end of the fiber. That circuitry you refer to is internal to the component receiving the signal, as well as the component sending it. The cable merely carries light impulses.
This is my understanding of the technology as well. The fiber cable is merely the medium for the light. There may be technologies out there that use specialty cables capable of demodulation, but not here. Otherwise, the cables would be TREMENDOUSLY expensive! Our little $10 optical cables are simply highly polished glass strands with keyed connectors on each end.
SimpleSimon
10-01-04, 03:39 PM
Mickdog - maybe you should change your handle to MickFog.
There is NO demodulator. BY DEFINITION, a demodulator converts analog to digital.
The device on the end of the optical cable is nothing more than the back-half of a simple opto-isolator.
Mickdog
10-01-04, 03:43 PM
Mickdog - maybe you should change your handle to MickFog.
There is NO demodulator. BY DEFINITION, a demodulator converts analog to digital.
The device on the end of the optical cable is nothing more than the back-half of a simple opto-isolator.
So tell me how light converts to sound without electronic circuits, which by the way, work off of electricity? :confused: :confused: :confused:
SimpleSimon
10-01-04, 03:59 PM
I never said there weren't any electronic circuits, just that there wasn't a demodulator.
It appears obvious from your posts here and elsewhere that you don't have the background to understand how it is actually works, so now that I've corrected your misinformation, I'm done.
Mickdog
10-01-04, 04:09 PM
I never said there weren't any electronic circuits, just that there wasn't a demodulator.
It appears obvious from your posts here and elsewhere that you don't have the background to understand how it is actually works, so now that I've corrected your misinformation, I'm done.
OK, so no demodulator, when did they get light to change by itself? Your missfortune that I happen to know something about electronic and digital signals. Or are you one of the folks around here that think they should get paid for a little advice?
SimpleSimon
10-01-04, 04:21 PM
OK, so no demodulator, when did they get light to change by itself? Your missfortune that I happen to know something about electronic and digital signals. Or are you one of the folks around here that think they should get paid for a little advice?What the frell are you talking about - get the light to change by itself? :nono2:
It's not MY misfortune - it's yours that you actually seem to think that you DO know something. :nono:
Finally, Yes, I do think I should get paid for giving advice - and guess what - I DO. Not here, but it's a big chunk of how I make my living.
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 04:26 PM
OK.....For the last few weeks DBSTalk has been open season..... :nono2:
Lets get Mick, JL, Larry, Gary, Simon, and Myself together...drink a few beers, agree to disagree, and if that doesn't work we can all go out to Ted K's place and shoot each other... :rolleyes:
No offense to anyone...but guys....were dragging alot of people into our battles that don't necessarily want to be there. Not that this doesn't provide any comic benefit...but the average DBSTalk users comes here for guidance and lately only sees a battle of four legged critters and comedians, most of which are now clashing repeatedly and are making the battles really public. :eek2:
Again, I'm not trying to bash anybody....just clear the way for more creative input for users in need. :)
Flame away,
Jason
SimpleSimon
10-01-04, 04:29 PM
No argument from me - and I'll leave the guns in the safe. ;)
Mickdog
10-01-04, 04:30 PM
OK.....For the last few weeks DBSTalk has been open season..... :nono2:
Lets get Mick, JL, Larry, Gary, Simon, and Myself together...drink a few beers, agree to disagree, and if that doesn't work we can all go out to Ted K's place and shoot each other... :rolleyes:
No offense to anyone...but guys....were dragging alot of people into our battles that don't necessarily want to be there. Not that this doesn't provide any comic benefit...but the average DBSTalk users comes here for guidance and lately only sees a battle of four legged critters and comedians, most of which are now clashing repeatedly and make the battles a really public. :eek2:
Again, I'm not trying to bash anybody....just clear the way for more creative input for users in need. :)
Flame away,
Jason
And that is what i came in here for to begin with!!!! I agree, ok guys, no more snubs when others have ideas other than signal strength!
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 04:31 PM
Ironically...wasn't it in potpourri that I was called the gun nut....:D
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 04:32 PM
And that is what i came in here for to begin with!!!! I agree, ok guys, no more snubs when others have ideas other than signal strength!
You have my vote...and I'll lay off teasing you about Terminators...
SimpleSimon
10-01-04, 04:33 PM
Well my comment was from a shot in jest from Gary to me on that topic. ;)
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 04:35 PM
Well my comment was from a shot in jest from Gary to me on that topic. ;)
OK....I never took offense...after all...how can one be offended by the truth... :D I should by stock in Glock.............. :lol:
SimpleSimon
10-01-04, 04:37 PM
:lol: I forget what's in Gary's arsenal - I think he told me once. ;)
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 04:40 PM
:lol: I forget what's in Gary's arsenal - I think he told me once. ;)
Paramounts Great America in Santa Clara is the only amusement park I have ever been to where they used the metal detector wand on me to see if I was carrying...Very beautiful area...not to insinuate anyone that lives there would need an arsenal... ;) I don't understand the demographics I guess.
garypen
10-01-04, 05:02 PM
Why can't we all just get along?
OK. Group hug!!!
...BY DEFINITION, a demodulator converts analog to digital.SimpleSimon, I think you may have the terms 'demodulator' and 'A/D converter' confused.
"By definition", a demodulator 'demodulates' a modulated signal. What is a modulated signal, you might ask? It is simply one signal combined, or "modulated" with another. For example, an audio signal modulated with a high frequency (carrier) signal for purposes of transmission. At the reception end, the combined signal is "demodulated", or stripped of the carrier, leaving only the audio signal to be amplified for playback.
Two types of modulation with which we are all familiar are Amplitude Modulation and Frequency Modulation. More about modulation can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demodulator)
The process of changing a continuous analog signal to a discrete digital signal is commonly referred to as A/D conversion. The circuit that achieves this is called a A/D converter, or ADC. More about ADC here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_to_digital_converter)
In summary, "demodulation" and "A/D conversion" are two different functions.
I hope this helps.
garypen
10-01-04, 05:05 PM
Indeed. But, neither the A/D nor D/A converters exist in the fiber optic cable itself.
Geez, I take a few minutes to type up a technical clarification and when I return, the discussion has turned into a fist fight. What's up with that? :confused:
Can't we all just get along? :shrug:
SimpleSimon
10-01-04, 05:14 PM
Yes, Nick - you're right - they're sometimes related but not the same, I got sucked in. My bad.
In any event, Gary is right - there's nothing in the cable.
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 05:18 PM
Geez, I take a few minutes to type up a technical clarification and when I return, the discussion has turned into a fist fight. What's up with that? :confused:
Can't we all just get along? :shrug:
What fist fight? :angel: :scratchin We're all just a bunch of innocent by-standers.... ;)
garypen
10-01-04, 05:47 PM
In any event, Gary is right - there's nothing in the cable.Nick - That is the point we were trying to make for our good friend Mickdog, whom we all like very much, and certainly don't want to smack in the head when he says something stupid. (which he never does, btw.) There's nothing in the cable other than the optical medium for transport of the optical digital signal from one piece of equipment to another. Any voltage involved would only be present in the AD and or DA conversion in the equipment that cable is plugged into on either end. I'm sure you would concur.
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 06:06 PM
Nick - That is the point we were trying to make for our good friend Mickdog, whom we all like very much, and certainly don't want to smack in the head when he says something stupid. (which he never does, btw.) There's nothing in the cable other than the optical medium for transport of the optical digital signal from one piece of equipment to another. Any voltage involved would only be present in the AD and or DA conversion in the equipment that cable is plugged into on either end. I'm sure you would concur.
Now now kids...Uncle Nick is watchin and doesn't want anymore horseplay.
Mickdog
10-01-04, 06:10 PM
Nick - That is the point we were trying to make for our good friend Mickdog, whom we all like very much, and certainly don't want to smack in the head when he says something stupid. (which he never does, btw.) There's nothing in the cable other than the optical medium for transport of the optical digital signal from one piece of equipment to another. Any voltage involved would only be present in the AD and or DA conversion in the equipment that cable is plugged into on either end. I'm sure you would concur.
Well, when I went through electronics training they called it modulate/demodulate, same thing. Just a play on words. Coverting from one to the other, in this case from electrons, to light, from light to electrons.
Jason Nipp
10-01-04, 06:44 PM
http://www.imagineeringezine.com/ttaoc/r-circuits.html
http://users.telenet.be/educypedia/electronics/circuitsopto.htm
:) :D :sure: ;) :hurah: :grin: :p :rolleyes: :)
Whoo Hoo...1000 posts....where's the confetti drop and ticker tape. :D
http://www.elexp.com/opt_k726.htm
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/movie-sound1.htm
Bobby94928
10-02-04, 07:51 PM
Oh damn, I was hoping to get a beer here.....
I have over 1,000 post spread over 4 forums, maybe one day I'll get my sweet reward :grin:
Mark Lamutt
10-05-04, 09:10 AM
Oh for the love of Pete...
Mickdog is wrong in this thread again.
There are 2 types of SPDIF signals that are sent over toslink cable. Consumer and Pro. The difference is one bit being set. A lot of consumer receivers on the market today can't decode a Pro SPDIF signal, resulting in no audio.
I don't know if that's what's wrong with the 811 toslink output or not, but an optical cable is just a cable. Light runs through it. There are no electronics or anything else as part of the cable. All of the electronics are on the other side of what the cable plugs into.
dnsc_installer
10-05-04, 10:13 PM
What the frell are you talking about
Just a quick haha, you know funny, not intending to get off topic, but sounds like you watch a little to much farscape there simon, specially when you start speaking there lingo :righton:
SimpleSimon
10-05-04, 10:30 PM
It just kinda stuck - they said it a LOT. :)
terfmop
10-06-04, 08:08 AM
Evidently, I have one of those incompatible receivers. Dish is sending me another receiver shortly to hopefully fix a problem I am having with the DVI out (i get no red coloring). Any chance a new receiver would come with the DD fix? What is PCM anyway?
Jason Nipp
10-06-04, 09:04 AM
Any chance a new receiver would come with the DD fix? What is PCM anyway?
Not unless your receiver comes next month...Next software spool is due to roll out end of Oct. This has Audio Stream patches in it, but will it fix this incompatibility issue? Entirely questionable?
PCM= Pulse Code Modulation, it is a communication protocol for digital audio transmission...
For the veterans that know more about this and are about to get technical: PCM= Pulse-code modulation (PCM) is a modulation technique. It is a digital representation of an analog signal where the magnitude of the signal is sampled regularly at uniform intervals of duration T . Every sample is quantized to a series of symbols in a digital code, which is usually a binary code. It is also the standard form for digital audio, in computers and various compact disc formats.
(Digital audio describes sound recording and reproduction systems which work by using a digital representation of the audio waveform. Technology overviewThe most common method of creating digital audio is Pulse-code modulation (PCM). PCM digital audio is typically sampled at 44.1 kHz (for CD recordings) or 48 kHz (for professional audio applications). For comparison, speech signals for telephony are only sampled at 8 kHz. Higher sample rates for professional recording are becoming popular. These include 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, and 192 kHz.)
Several PCM streams may be multiplexed into a larger aggregate data stream, this technique is called Time-Division Multiplexing or TDM. While invented by the telephone industry, TDM technology is also an integral part of many digital audio workstations. (Source (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/PCM))
Other links:
http://www.pctechguide.com/10dvd_DVD-Audio.htm
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/audio_notes/f_audio_notes-11.25.03.shtml
http://www.atsc.org/document_map/audio.htm
red hazard
10-09-04, 02:53 PM
Not unless your receiver comes next month...Next software spool is due to roll out end of Oct. This has Audio Stream patches in it, but will it fix this incompatibility issue? Entirely questionable?
PCM= Pulse Code Modulation, it is a communication protocol for digital audio transmission...
For the veterans that know more about this and are about to get technical: PCM= Pulse-code modulation (PCM) is a modulation technique. It is a digital representation of an analog signal where the magnitude of the signal is sampled regularly at uniform intervals of duration T . Every sample is quantized to a series of symbols in a digital code, which is usually a binary code. It is also the standard form for digital audio, in computers and various compact disc formats.
(Digital audio describes sound recording and reproduction systems which work by using a digital representation of the audio waveform. Technology overviewThe most common method of creating digital audio is Pulse-code modulation (PCM). PCM digital audio is typically sampled at 44.1 kHz (for CD recordings) or 48 kHz (for professional audio applications). For comparison, speech signals for telephony are only sampled at 8 kHz. Higher sample rates for professional recording are becoming popular. These include 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, and 192 kHz.)
Several PCM streams may be multiplexed into a larger aggregate data stream, this technique is called Time-Division Multiplexing or TDM. While invented by the telephone industry, TDM technology is also an integral part of many digital audio workstations. (Source (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/PCM))
Other links:
http://www.pctechguide.com/10dvd_DVD-Audio.htm
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/audio_notes/f_audio_notes-11.25.03.shtml
http://www.atsc.org/document_map/audio.htm
That's a pretty good concise explanation of Pulse Code Modulation. It's too bad that Bell Labs back in the early 50's decided to call it a type of modulation when in fact it is actually a conversion of analog to digital (and vice versa) which Nick discussed in an earlier thread. They even referred to the quantizing step as Pulse Amplitude Modulation (PAM) which is also misleading. It's easy to see how the term "modulation" is misused/misunderstood.
BTW, Bell Labs did not intentionally invent digital transport for all the benefits that we now associated with "digital". They invented PCM carrier systems to conserve on their outside plant copper cable pairs. Two pairs could now carrier 24 telephone circuits vice just two. Of course TDM was also used to achieve this.
garypen
10-09-04, 03:03 PM
And that, my friends, explains why DD from the 811 doesn't work on some audio receivers.
Or, maybe not.
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