Dish moving to MPEG4/ 921 will be useless [Archive]

mwgiii

11-09-04, 12:38 PM

Just listened to the Dish earnings conference call.

Charlie said Dish would be moving to MPEG4 starting with the HD channels next year. This would require all new hardware ie 921 will not work with the new HD MPEG4 channels.

What a cluster F the 921 has become.

Source:
Echostar Investor Conference Call
http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/index.shtml
Click on webcast

JohnH

11-09-04, 12:46 PM

Yeah, I heard that also. Should be an interesting transition. Important to mention he said starting in about a year and it would be new channels to start with.

He also said they were not currently in position, as far as capacity goes, to offer much in the way of new HD Content. Apparently even with AMC 15 going to 105w.

Just noticed what forum we are in. There is probably a better choice.

Scott Greczkowski

11-09-04, 02:16 PM

Man I am glad I wasn't hearing things. It appears the entire company is on hold for the next year, with the mention of no space for additional HD, the fact that any new HD added will be in MPEG4 which will require a new receiver and no HD will be added til they launch two new satellites makes the future seem glum for Dish Network.

With that said however the future does not really look any more brighter at DirecTV where they may have more HD channels but its so compressed that should call it HD LITE.

If I was a cable company I would invest everything into adding the most HD possible while both companies site with their thumbs up their butts.

BFG

11-09-04, 02:22 PM

I'd be ready to move back to cable, but first they need to fix their analog system poc, and mirror those channels to digital. lower their subscription to at most $49.99 for a comparable tier that's between AT120 and AT180. and make rental boxes a little cheaper.

SpenceJT

11-09-04, 02:58 PM

They sure better have a sweet (as in nearly free) upgrade offer for those of us "suckers" (yes I said "Suckers", a term with which I am including myself) who gave up $1K for a 921!

Cyclone

11-09-04, 03:21 PM

With nothing to do for the next year, I hope the software engineers will make the 921 stable and more feature rich.

Don't forget that the 921 isn't going to drop dead next year. Its just new channels that won't work. It will likely take a while before the migration really kicks in. I still do believe that there will be new HD before MP4. Heck, it was just last year that there wasn't going to be any new HD until SuperDish. SuperDish fell through and the next thing you know, HD pak is on 110.

Mike123abc

11-09-04, 03:27 PM

Well it is not 100% sure that the 921 will be useless. Remember the 921 is basically a PC with expansion slots. Dish could come out with an MPEG-4 decoder card for the 921. It would be nice to not have a $1000 boat anchor.

Cyclone

11-09-04, 03:35 PM

If they had simple Dish 6000 like expansion slots, then I would be hopeful. But the 921 is too complex for them to enterain that path. Unless they had somekind of "send it in" plan.

nuts4scuba

11-09-04, 03:43 PM

If Dish isn't going to support the 921 for MPEG-4, they could drop the pvr and mirroring fees on them so you could still record OTA.

jrbdmb

11-09-04, 04:12 PM

If Dish isn't going to support the 921 for MPEG-4, they could drop the pvr and mirroring fees on them so you could still record OTA.Better yet, they should refund the $999 or $599 you all paid for the 921, or provide a free upgrade (with no commitment) to the 92x that supports MPEG-4.

The 921 truly is starting to sound more and more like a giant clusterf*ck. I feel sorry for those of you swindled on this deal (esp. those who paid $999).

jsanders

11-09-04, 04:35 PM

Two questions then....

Is the 942 going to support MPEG4 decoding? If it isn't, then anyone who buys one of those is really going to get the shaft...

What about the 811?

Does any HD receiver currently support MPEG4 dencoding?
Why not do MPEG4 for all of the content, both HD and SD? You could sure save a lot of space that way... Just upgrade ALL of the receivers! :lol:

Second... MPEG decoding has been done in software. There are a lot of computers that do DVD playback via MPEG decode in software to save money. Is someone saying that this can't be done as a software upgrade in the 921? Is the decode done in hardware or software currently? Does anyone know? The 921, in previous versions upgraded an image for an FPGA. That is literally an upgradeable piece of hardware. Is it possible you could upgrade to MPEG4 decoding via a new FPGA image? I don't know what that image was for, that is why I am asking. I thought it had something to do with OTA tuners though.

If E* does all of this, they will have made great strides. An 8PSK signal with MPEG4 encoding should use a LOT less bandwidth than the old QPSK with MPEG2 encoding.

We 921 owners have good cause for being angry. It is also important to make sure we get all of the facts straight before we get even more upset.

4HiMarks

11-09-04, 05:37 PM

Jacob S

11-09-04, 05:43 PM

Hmm, those that are leasing the 811 wont have to worry as much since all they have to do is trade it in or just send it back. I am curious if the 942 is going to support this or if they are going to use something in conjunction with Voom's satellite service being able to offer what they have or at least their satellite with the MPEG 4 technology. Just sounds like something to delay the 942 even further if not wipe it out completely.

Things such as this plus the high cost of HD at the time is why I have never bought into it. HD just has not matured yet and neither has the price.

boylehome

11-09-04, 06:27 PM

scooper

11-09-04, 06:35 PM

I'm with you jsanders. I don't think any current receivers support MPEG-4, so they would all become boat anchors - 921, 811, 6000, and maybe the 942 also.

I'm sure the decoding could be done in software, but what would the CPU load be? Is MPEG-4 decoding more, or less, processor-intensive than the current MPEG-2? I know the files generally take up less space (and hence less bandwidth), but there has to be a trade-off for that somewhere, doesn't there?

-Chris

MPEG2 decoding in SW is bad enough - requires both fast CPU and good code to do reasonably . MPEG4 - What are you calling MPEG4 ? I can't imagine it taking any less than MPEG2, and quite possibly more. There was that HD WMV that I had heard about that requires a 3.2 GHz CPU to watch - you will need to develop some silicon to do it before it will be reasonable for a DBS receiver. And once you do it in silicon - it just becoes a matter of writing drivers so an exapnsion board for the 921 to work. For that matter - the same could be done for the 811s as well, assuming they have an expansion slot internally.

jsanders

11-09-04, 07:09 PM

MPEG2 decoding in SW is bad enough - requires both fast CPU and good code to do reasonably . MPEG4 - What are you calling MPEG4 ? I can't imagine it taking any less than MPEG2, and quite possibly more. There was that HD WMV that I had heard about that requires a 3.2 GHz CPU to watch - you will need to develop some silicon to do it before it will be reasonable for a DBS receiver. And once you do it in silicon - it just becoes a matter of writing drivers so an exapnsion board for the 921 to work. For that matter - the same could be done for the 811s as well, assuming they have an expansion slot internally.

I think we really need some numbers to benchmark with. As it turns out, the AAC codec for audio files compresses better than MP3 files, and it actually takes less processing power to do it. I seriously doubt MPEG4 would take fewer cycles than MPEG2, I think it is important to find out what the real numbers are though. A card add-on would be good, the way they added an 8PSK card for the 6000. What was in the 921? Linux running 800MHz, or 1GHz? I don't know. Not very powerful, but you never know.... :grin:

boylehome

11-09-04, 07:16 PM

If E* does all of this, they will have made great strides. An 8PSK signal with MPEG4 encoding should use a LOT less bandwidth than the old QPSK with MPEG2 encoding. It is also important to make sure we get all of the facts straight before we get even more upset.
I think that this could greatly expand HD programming. I agree, facts would be most stabilizing!

4HiMarks

11-09-04, 08:19 PM

MPEG2 decoding in SW is bad enough - requires both fast CPU and good code to do reasonably . MPEG4 - What are you calling MPEG4?

Whatever the spec is. I think it has been finalized by, who, IEEE or some independent organization like that, hasn't it?

What was in the 921? Linux running 800MHz, or 1GHz?

I believe it was 800, 850MHz, something like that. I know I saw it posted here, by SimpleSimon, maybe? It's a VIA chip (descendant of the old Cyrix), and definitely less than 1 GHz.

Now I had an early DVD-ROM drive with a separate MPEG2 decoder card back in the days when 133MHz was standard for a CPU, and it worked fine for DVDs. I would think 800MHz should be plenty for HD, if there was plenty of RAM and not a lot of overhead for unnecessary processes on a video-only box. But who knows how much CPU power the "security" measures take?

-Chris

jsanders

11-10-04, 01:34 AM

Whatever the spec is. I think it has been finalized by, who, IEEE or some independent organization like that, hasn't it?

MPEG stands for Motion Picture Experts Group, they are the group that makes the standard.

There is a huge difference between an MPEG-2 DVD decode and an MPEG-4 HD decode, unfortunately. It is probably a long shot that it could do it. You never know though....

Mark Lamutt

11-10-04, 08:37 AM

Moving to Dish DVR forum.

jp9

11-10-04, 09:51 AM

Wow! It sure seems like this would have been a great topic for the Dish Tech Chat on Monday. It at a minimum should be discussed in detail at the next Charlie Chat, including what the statement 'will require new hardware' means to existing HD equipment.

I also kind of wonder about whether he may also be considering the WMV9 standard, which from what I have read in Widescreen Review might be more processor-efficient for a given level of compression. There are also a couple of MPEG4 variants, I wonder which one he means. Could he be posturing in an effort to receive a call from Bill G and company? The ongoing HD DVD vs Blue Ray thing sort of called a truce on encoding/decoding by including MPEG4 and WMV9 codecs as I understand it, so maybe he is safe not waiting for any influence that may have.

Do we need to start a Charlie Chat letter-writing campaign on the behalf of all existing HD receiver owners for more info???

JohnH

11-10-04, 10:50 AM

I would think VC9 or H264. Certainly not plain ole Mpeg4.

Mark Holtz

11-10-04, 10:57 AM

This is exactly one of the reasons why I am still on the sidelines in regards to HDTV. I want to let all of the equipment "shake out", and then take advantage of a more mature technology.

Someone please correct me if I wrong, but I thought I heard also that Dish was currently using QPSK for their receivers, but that the newer receivers were also capable of 8PSK which is a more efficient coding of signal. Also, if I recall correctly, compression is more hardware intensive than decompression.

Jerry G

11-10-04, 11:33 AM

If I was a cable company I would invest everything into adding the most HD possible while both companies site with their thumbs up their butts.

Absolutely. This is a golden time for the cable companies to snag many satellite HD customers. Sadly, Adelphia serves my area and they offer about two HD channels. They aren't smart or capable enough to take advantage of the HD opportunities they have with Dish and DirecTV's disarray right now.

CoriBright

11-10-04, 01:00 PM

MPEG4 has all the protection stuff...
http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/standards/ipmp/index.htm

and
http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/standards/mpeg-4/mpeg-4.htm

dfergie

11-10-04, 01:11 PM

Guys, if you have any questions for Dish, they are going to be in contact with Scott very soon, go to the thread at www.SatelliteGuys.us (http://www.satelliteguys.us/) and post them.

bavaria72

11-10-04, 01:31 PM

Guys, if you have any questions for Dish, they are going to be in contact with Scott very soon, go to the thread at www.SatelliteGuys.us (http://www.satelliteguys.us/) and post them.

Well that could be very interesting. I know that Scott has been trying to rally the troops over this.

jsanders

11-10-04, 01:58 PM

Someone please correct me if I wrong, but I thought I heard also that Dish was currently using QPSK for their receivers, but that the newer receivers were also capable of 8PSK which is a more efficient coding of signal. Also, if I recall correctly, compression is more hardware intensive than decompression.

Everything is being transmitted with 8PSK now. That means the old 5000 receivers became non-useful. It means that if you had a 6000 receiver, you had to buy the 8psk module to continue viewing SAT HD channels.

Scott Greczkowski

11-10-04, 02:57 PM

Everything is being transmitted with 8PSK now.
Actually only the HD channels are being transmitted in 8PSK ;)

wimcolgate

11-10-04, 08:00 PM

There are other processors that are highly tuned to do A/V decompression algorithms in software. If E* (Or D* for that matter) stoped making boxes with fixed-function chips, the world would be a lot simpler.

At least one company www.equator.com develops processors like this. They dont need to run has hard and hot as X86 chips.

Wim

Jacob S

11-10-04, 08:55 PM

Didn't I hear a while back that everything was going to be broadcasted using 8PSK to make room for more channels? This could allow them more room for locals and HD in that they could use the extra space not needed for SD to use for HD. I also thought that the new receivers were capable of also tuning in DirecTv signals and/or 8PSK a while back.

Bob Haller

11-10-04, 10:35 PM

I also thought that the new receivers were capable of also tuning in DirecTv signals and/or 8PSK a while back.

I remember that clearly about the time of the merger talks.

There are so few 921s oout there E is probably better served by ditching it once a new model is available.

I costs a LOT to support a box. Same cost for software patches, CSR traing etc no matter ONE box or ONE MILLION!

Better to ditch low volume boxes and move to a standarized few.

Thats also being facilated by the upgrading of boxes like the 1000.

Jacob S

11-11-04, 12:10 AM

They need to keep the same type of software on their different receivers so they will not have to change so much code. Could it be possible to launch the same software to receivers that do not have hard drives and to those that also have them in which would contain software that has nothing to do with the DVR functionality and add all the other code that is specific for the DVR's that was in the last version of software for that receiver specifically or is that not possible?

boylehome

11-11-04, 11:52 AM

I have personally be in contact with Dish Network and I was told that the 921, 811, and 6000 would NOT become obsolete.

mkerdman

11-11-04, 12:18 PM

I have personally be in contact with Dish Network and I was told that the 921, 811, and 6000 would NOT become obsolete.

What Charlie says, and, what Charlie does, often...well...vary.

Murray Kerdman

n0qcu

11-11-04, 03:34 PM

I have personally be in contact with Dish Network and I was told that the 921, 811, and 6000 would NOT become obsolete.
Just like everyone with a 6000 had to buy the 8psk module and those with a 5000 had to buy a 6000 & 8psk module just to CONTINUE to watch the HD they were already getting.

Jacob S

11-11-04, 03:59 PM

I'd just hold out. Its just a matter of time before the prices drop, availability and quality increases, and the risk to consumer is brought down to a mature manner.

Unthinkable

11-11-04, 10:56 PM

Just like everyone with a 6000 had to buy the 8psk module and those with a 5000 had to buy a 6000 & 8psk module just to CONTINUE to watch the HD they were already getting.

Dish gave the modules away for free to 6000 customers committing to 12 months of HD Discovery or the the HD Pak at the time. No buying involved whatsoever there.

Mike123abc

11-12-04, 12:59 AM

Dish gave the modules away for free to 6000 customers committing to 12 months of HD Discovery or the the HD Pak at the time. No buying involved whatsoever there.

Actually this was only true if you had one receiver. You had to buy the modules for other 6000s (I had more than one, I know, I have AT everything and HD pack and still only qualified for a single free upgrade, the rest cost $$).

Right now I have a 6000, 811 and 921, I am probably going to end up having to pay to upgrade 2 of my boxes if they change the format (I sold my other 6000 when the 811 came out).

mkerdman

11-12-04, 01:43 AM

With cable now offering essentially the same programing as satellite, including HDTV and network locals, as well as cheaply leased hardware with free upgrades to new technology, the satellite industry will no longer be able to base their future business model on user purchased hardware and 1-year minimum programing subscriptions.

kstevens

11-12-04, 06:38 AM

Depends on where you are. Here cable is still way more expensive than satellite and they have just only started laying fiber optic required for digital. We won't see hd for years.

Ken

bavaria72

11-12-04, 08:50 AM

Come on SBC and get that fiber out there!! :D

boylehome

11-13-04, 08:51 PM

Remember when Dish started using MPEG2? How long has Dish utilized MPEG2? Now it's talking about changing to MPEG4. How soon before something better than MPEG4?

Jacob S

11-14-04, 02:07 AM

kstevens

11-14-04, 07:02 AM

Thats what I am wondering. By the time they would get everything over to MPEG4 something better will be out. This is why most stick with what they come out with originally, to save money and hassle. Dish and Direct both use the same thing that they used when they first came out (7 and 10 years later respectively).

They are probably going to mpeg4 because they can get higher quality at the same bitrate. So they are probably thinking that they can reduce the bitrate a bit and maintain the same quality as mpeg2, thus freeing up a little bandwidth.

Ken

boylehome

11-14-04, 07:22 AM

They are probably going to mpeg4 because they can get higher quality at the same bitrate. So they are probably thinking that they can reduce the bitrate a bit and maintain the same quality as mpeg2, thus freeing up a little bandwidth.

Ken
I think that is a good thing.

stonecold

11-14-04, 08:33 AM

Ok guys this has to be the most obscene line of questioning i have ever seen.

First off apparently no one here has ever taken apart a 921.

If you did you would notice a couple of things.

there is a mpeg2 decoder chip for all the standard def channels but 8psk decoding happens to be on it own processor. This looks like an embeded intel xscale processor but I could be seriouslywrong on that.

Now considering what kinda of horse power it takes on the pc side to decode 8psk with out a specialize decoder chip. (look at a 1.4ghz min with out jitter or stutter) I would say that the with (half assed) software updates to the 921 if they wanted to move HD to mpeg4 standard well they probably could get away with it. But it seems more hassle than not.

Bandwith. Ha dish has more damn bandwith direct tv and voom combined.

SimpleSimon

11-14-04, 01:56 PM

So are you saying the embedded chip that you think is being used for 8PSK can ALSO be used to do the MPEG-4 decoding? That would be cool.

stonecold

11-14-04, 03:44 PM

Because I dont see an embedded dedicated 8psk decoded like I seen in the 6000 upgrade module or other by them standlone HDTV/Digital TV OTA tuners. as I seen OTA standalones that support 8psk and qpsk.

But from repairing a couple of pocket pc pdas that use Intels Xscale processor. Since I know what kind of speed is required to decode 8psk with out a dedicated chip. It should not be a issue for the 921. Too many 921 sold for dish to screw them over.

tnsprin

11-14-04, 04:07 PM

I've heard that MPG4 is supposed to work pretty well with HD. The 921 may not be able to work in the event that HD does go to MPG4. It would be expected that E* upgrade the existing customers with 921 units.
Chips exist that can do the upgrade. The question is whether It would be cost effective to add such to an upgrade board, or cheaper to offer 921 users an upgrade to a new unit.

Incidently the new dvr planned currently to replace the 921 cannot currently do mpeg4 either.

tnsprin

11-14-04, 04:18 PM

Ok guys this has to be the most obscene line of questioning i have ever seen.

First off apparently no one here has ever taken apart a 921.

If you did you would notice a couple of things.

there is a mpeg2 decoder chip for all the standard def channels but 8psk decoding happens to be on it own processor. This looks like an embeded intel xscale processor but I could be seriouslywrong on that.
...

I haven't looked inside to see what what was actually used, but the originally announced chips sets from Broadcom that were supposed to be in the 921 included chips to do almost all of this including the qpsk and 8psk decoding. The software is almost exclusively management of the flows between the various chip sets and the hard drive.

Bob Haller

11-14-04, 04:21 PM

I too believe the 921 will support the new format. It will largely be a issue of programming code. Given the earlier hassles it might make more fiancial sense for E to replace ALL the 921s if the 942s are working well.

Presence

11-15-04, 12:09 AM

Listen to all you crybabies with your 921s. MPEG2 applies to all Dish receivers, you know, not just the 921. Everyone will have to overhaul eventually.

I, for one, cannot believe it has taken Dish this long to get into MPEG4. And I look forward to it.

stonecold

11-15-04, 07:53 AM

While Mpeg2 applies to all recievers. I have heard the mpeg4 HD rumors. I belive that Dish eventually move everyone over to mpeg over the course of time. But do they really want to get away from the DVB standard. The DVB standard is still Mpeg2

Mike123abc

11-15-04, 09:13 AM

Everyone is acting like MPEG-4 is coming next month or sooner. MPEG-4 chipsets are just now being developed. A long way from having a receiver designed to use them, to say nothing of the real time compression technology hardware needed at the uplink to make the MPEG-4 streams. It will take a while for DBS companies (and cable) to work out all the issues. Stonecold has a good point, the DVB standard will probably have to be updated to include MPEG-4 and it would probably take some time for that to happen. VOOM which has been promising MPEG-4 for a long time keeps pushing it back... the technology is just not there yet.

The DBS companies have bent over backwards to keep all the boxes working. Very few boxes have ever had to be replace to keep up with new technology.

Eventually every box will be obsolete and will have to be replaced. They are just not anxious to repace every box because of the big $$ it will cost them. It will be a slow, gradual process. Every box Dish now makes is 8PSK compatible. You do not see them rush to change SD transmissions to 8PSK, they will let the new boxes get out and let the old boxes die. I suspect the same will happen with MPEG-4, they will eventually have a base box that does 8PSK/MPEG-4, and probably both HD and SD. They will let these circulate a while before they change programming to require it.

There will also be new technologies coming out that will be incorporated eventually, and will make the 8PSK/MPEG-4/SD/HD boxes obsolete eventually.

Jacob S

11-15-04, 11:07 PM

Of course, everything will eventually become obsolete, but I think that Dish Network is rolling towards the 8PSK and MPEG-4 at least for HD at first and will try to stick with that for a while. They need to implement a way of upgrading the receivers itself instead of having to replace them everytime a change comes along.

JM Anthony

11-15-04, 11:26 PM

In an industry that's this competitive, I suspect the last thing any of the service providers want to do is give you another reason to jump to another supplier. My gut says E* and the others will make the transition as transparent as possible. After my experience with a 921, if I have to shell out another $1K in the foreseeable future, it won't be with Charlie. :lol:

Dang The Hung

11-16-04, 12:25 AM

cpdretired

11-16-04, 09:35 AM

If I am not mistaken, the motorola boxes that Voom uses are upgradable to MPEG4 via a software download, whats not to say the newer HD boxes from dish (811, 921) are not MPEG4 upgradable via a firmware upgrade?
Correct they are upgradable. There is a slot on the right side for a card to be inserted first. As of now Voom has not sent out cards. This may happen next year.

Bill R

11-16-04, 10:15 AM

I too believe the 921 will support the new format. It will largely be a issue of programming code.

All the programming code in the world wouldn't do it since they don't have the MPEG4 chip set. 921s could get an add on board but not knowing much about the design of the receiver we don't know how practical that would be.

I think DISH will do whatever it takes (including replacing current receivers) to keep their high-end customers.

mkerdman

11-16-04, 10:32 AM

mkerdman

11-16-04, 10:39 AM

All the programming code in the world wouldn't do it since they don't have the MPEG4 chip set. 921s could get an add on board but not knowing much about the design of the receiver we don't know how practical that would be.

I think DISH will do whatever it takes (including replacing current receivers) to keep their high-end customers.

I agree.

With quite a bit of bit**ing on users part, Dish provided $300 in discount on a 921, a free 811 or 6000, or, a $300 programing credit, to all Dish 5000 HD Modulator subs.

The total universe of 921's is very small.

The total universe of 6000's adn 811's are not nearly so small.

However, those subs pay ~$100+ a month, unless they are HD a la carte people.

Dish will do whatever it takes not to lose the HD subs when they roll out non-backward compatible HD schemes.

Our 921's, 6000's, and 811's will be upgraded or swapped out.

Murray Kerdman

BarryO

11-16-04, 04:56 PM

redfishhunter

11-16-04, 06:25 PM

:p I discourage my Sub. from getting a 921...Just listened to the Dish earnings conference call.

Charlie said Dish would be moving to MPEG4 starting with the HD channels next year. This would require all new hardware ie 921 will not work with the new HD MPEG4 channels.

What a cluster F the 921 has become.

Source:
Echostar Investor Conference Call
http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/index.shtml
Click on webcast

boylehome

11-16-04, 06:33 PM

Jacob S

11-16-04, 06:46 PM

Maybe they will wise up with the 942 to make them upgradable. Just make it to where the slots can be replaced in a simple process - everything from the processor to the tuner, memory, etc. This helps reduce cost and churn. They could have the retailers and their installers trained on how to replace the boards.

SimpleSimon

11-16-04, 09:13 PM

I doubt the average E* retailer/installer could be trusted to upgrade internal hardware. OTOH, outfits like mine (and there are a lot of us) could do it in our sleep - because we're also computer shops.

musicmaker2020

11-17-04, 11:07 PM

The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!!!

Welcome to the world of consumer electronics. 'things become obsolete. Enjoy them while they're not.

My VHS deck is a boat anchor now. When it wasn't, I got alot of use out of it. My 921 may become a boat anchor some day. In the meantime, I enjoy recording HD with it (and it hasn't crashed in months).

Exactly, I dont have a 921 or 811 but I am sure E* will make the transition semi-smooth in one way shape or form. Time will tell. And it wouldnt be the first $1K plus device either become semi useless in no time OR another device comes out in no time thats better at 1\4 of the cost.

Historically people who buy something thats a first pay the way for better, cheaper technology for the masses down the road.

I can remember when Betamax cost 1000
I can remember when VHS cost 500
I can remember when DVD players cost 500
I can remember when CD Roms cost 250

And I have been a victim of buying the hottest when its just released.

I bought a 2x IDE CD Burner for 300, a 40X CD Rom for 150, and a 8X SCSI CD Burner for 450 in my time.

With all that said I am barely a quarter century old. I am a little surprised that this transistion to newer better stuff has surprised anyone who shelled out the cash to have the first dual tuner, HD DVR.

On the other subject of bandwidth:

If E* needs bandwidth to support more HD there is that "Voom network" that Charlie is always saying they dont carry yet during the Charlie Chat's. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Jacob S

11-17-04, 11:47 PM

Retailers could get training and get certified to do those upgrades in the receivers.

SimpleSimon

11-18-04, 12:12 AM

Retailers could get training and get certified to do those upgrades in the receivers.
You obviously haven't met some of the retailers that I have. Too many of them are nothing but sales hacks that don't even know which end of a screwdriver to hold.

I think the only way it's feasible is IF the retailer in question can prove prior skill in handling computer internals.

tvdxer

01-10-05, 08:10 PM

Exactly, I dont have a 921 or 811 but I am sure E* will make the transition semi-smooth in one way shape or form. Time will tell. And it wouldnt be the first $1K plus device either become semi useless in no time OR another device comes out in no time thats better at 1\4 of the cost.

Historically people who buy something thats a first pay the way for better, cheaper technology for the masses down the road.

I can remember when Betamax cost 1000
I can remember when VHS cost 500
I can remember when DVD players cost 500
I can remember when CD Roms cost 250

And I have been a victim of buying the hottest when its just released.

I bought a 2x IDE CD Burner for 300, a 40X CD Rom for 150, and a 8X SCSI CD Burner for 450 in my time.

With all that said I am barely a quarter century old. I am a little surprised that this transistion to newer better stuff has surprised anyone who shelled out the cash to have the first dual tuner, HD DVR.

On the other subject of bandwidth:

If E* needs bandwidth to support more HD there is that "Voom network" that Charlie is always saying they dont carry yet during the Charlie Chat's. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You forgot to mention DirecTV systems selling at $800 - $1,000+ when they first came out in 1994!

Jacob S

01-10-05, 09:18 PM

Your right SimpleSimon, there are going to be some retailers out there that will not be able to do that, there is always someone out there that is not able or not willing to. Many would hire people to do it for them (their employees). This is what the certification would be for. If Dish Network make it simple enough they could come out with new receivers that could making upgrading as simple as taking one slot board out and putting in another and making them expandable.

SimpleSimon

01-11-05, 01:40 AM

I still think prior experience should be required. Ever been to a DirecWay installation class? What a joke! If you don't already know how it works, you ain't gonna figure it out in the class.

djlong

01-11-05, 06:44 AM

BobMurdoch

01-11-05, 10:07 AM

The 921 is basically a glorified PC. And $1000 PCs usually last about 2 years before weird glitches start happening and things slow to a crawl, forcing you to buy a new one.

That's the problem with progress.... those who are at a dead stop get smaller in the rear view with every passing minute.

I agree that there has to be some upgrade path to keep the existing customers from bolting elsewhere, but the worse case scenario is that you keep watching the same HD channels you are right now for a while longer. This sounds to me to be similar to what happened when the Dish500s came out. If you wanted the channels on the 110 satellite you upgraded, if not you stuck with your old Dish300 dish. I see them providing SOME kind of upgrade path.

andrews

01-11-05, 12:20 PM

Problem is - the 8x SCSI CD-ROM still functioned no matter how old it got. They didn't say "A year after introducing the product, we're going to make you buy another drive"

CDs came out around '82, DVDs in the '90s. How long has the 921 been out?

I bet you would have a hard time running it now, at least with whatever SCSI card you had at the time. And it still doesn't load DVDs. :)

Brad

Anonymous

01-11-05, 12:39 PM

All the programming code in the world wouldn't do it since they don't have the MPEG4 chip set. 921s could get an add on board but not knowing much about the design of the receiver we don't know how practical that would be.

I think DISH will do whatever it takes (including replacing current receivers) to keep their high-end customers.

You don't need a "MPEG4 chip set", you need an MPEG4 codec. If the 921 has a 1GHz CPU, Pentium equivalent, it can decode MPEG4. So, I bet it has a 30-60MHz 386 or 486 equivalent CPU and therefore all the programming code in the world wouldn't do it, not because of the lack of some chip set but because of the lack of horsepower. They use MPEG2 decoder chips and will use MPEG4 decoder chips because a specialized chip or chip set is cheaper and more reliable than a program running on a general purpose CPU. But if they were smart, instead of the $10 486 they should go for the $50 AMD Athlon and then in the future, if they switched to a different codec (even something better than MPEG4) they could switch to a software based decoder and save Dish a ton of money by not having to replace a bunch of devices.

JohnH

01-11-05, 01:04 PM

scooper

01-11-05, 01:35 PM

I bet you would have a hard time running it now, at least with whatever SCSI card you had at the time. And it still doesn't load DVDs. :)

Brad

I've a a 2x NEC SCSI CDROm that could be hooked up right now to any SCSI card supported by Win2K / WinXP /Linux. Not much point, but I KNOW it will work...

And assuming your motherboard still has ISA slots (mine does) - I can too run the AHA1522 / AHA1542C SCSI cards (supported still).

Ron Barry

01-11-05, 01:44 PM

Here is my 2 cents. The purpose of MPEG-4 is to allow Dish to meet the customer needs. Is there any significant added value between MPEG-2 and and MPEG-4 that Dish feels it can charge the customer for? If the answer is yes, Then they have grounds to expect the customer to help defer cost. If the anser is no and this is a cost saving in the long run, then the cost must be financed by Dish. There is a cost saving moving to MPEG-4 from MPEG-2. The cost saving is that they can offer more services on the same hardware. Question is how long will it take to recoup the cost? I personally see the move to MPEG-4 as something Dish feels is necessary to address the needs of its customer base. Part of doing business and so is cost to upgrade in this case.

Hopefully they will do the right thing.. If it means swapping out a receiver or providing an update card, then that is what it takes and it should be their cost.

As to doing it in software vs. hardward. Well that is the decision they must make since they know the variables. It can be done either way but I am not sure if the current systems have the horsepower to do it and do all the other things the box is required to do.

Time will tell on this issue. Lets hope Dish does the right thing.

Anonymous

01-11-05, 01:45 PM

And while this FAST PC is decoding the routine High Definition video and DD 5.1 audio what will be doing the routine maintainence functions that occur in every receiver while watching TV. EPG Trickle. Authorization. Clock Updating. Timer processing.

Whether it is Mpeg4(DVB-S2 or H.264) or Mpeg2. Updating bits in the HD signal still requires much processing speed. More like 2.8 GHz or more. And memory. Well 512 Meg is about enough.

Oh my. Your receiver now costs 2K

My Athlon T-Bird 900 MHz can decode 30 fps 720x480 DivX with 256 MB RAM while running Windows Server 2003 Standard Edition. So if it can do that then a tiny Linux OS could certainly do that with a 1GHz Athlon Mobile chip, with half the RAM or less. In fact, there are tiny Live Linux Multimedia CD distros that can boot with only 64 MB or RAM, and that is with the overhead of having to extract everything from compressed read only files on the CD into the RAM before executing anything. Keep in mind that low clock speed AMD chips are dirt cheap and would at most add $50 to the price. But then there would be more room to upgrade devices in the future instead of charging the customer for hardware upgrades or raising the rates to cover those prices. Adding $100 to the price of the equipment now could save Dish, the customers, or both $500 per customer each time Dish exhausts its satellite bandwidth.

andrews

01-12-05, 12:14 PM

I've a a 2x NEC SCSI CDROm that could be hooked up right now to any SCSI card supported by Win2K / WinXP /Linux. Not much point, but I KNOW it will work...

And assuming your motherboard still has ISA slots (mine does) - I can too run the AHA1522 / AHA1542C SCSI cards (supported still).

And the 941 will still pick up current channels from what I understand. The point is, you can't partake of the latest technology with old technology forever, that is a fact of life in the digital age.

Brad

BobMurdoch

01-12-05, 12:29 PM

Yeah, but we get cranky when our fairly new $1000 HD receivers can't receive all of the HD programming anymore.

boylehome

01-12-05, 04:33 PM

And the 941 will still pick up current channels from what I understand. The point is, you can't partake of the latest technology with old technology forever, that is a fact of life in the digital age.

Brad
Brad, man the truth hurts! I think that the 921 is advanced enough for any needed upgrade and hopefully for a reasonable price. Hopefully, E* will accommodate, so all of us 921 owners so we will receive all the future HD programming that is offered. Hopefully the 921 will be equipped with MPEG 4 technology but that receiver extends my needs and I would expect that it will have a variety of problems as it is a Dish Network product.

pjmrt

01-12-05, 06:39 PM

I sure hope the 921 is "fixable", either by receiver upgrade from Dish or by Dish providing a box to interface with it. I was seriously considering taking advantage of their HDTV/921 offer until I heard about the incompatibility. Now its on hold until I hear Dish's plan to fix it or until they offer a good deal on the replacement receiver. I hope someone from Dish takes note - the issue is costing them customers.

kstuart

01-12-05, 08:13 PM

I'm highly dubious about all this.

Every MPEG4 video that I have watched on a quality TV monitor has not looked as good an MPEG2 video of the same material. They have a flat, two-dimensional look. The difference is that the file size of the MPEG4 video is significantly smaller.

This seems to me quite parallel to MP3. A 320kbps MP3 sounds close to a 44.1/16bit WAV file, but not quite as good (let alone a 24bit/96khz LPCM file). But, it is smaller.

Methinks the ultimate outcome here has the same relationship to "HD" as the current DBS SD channels have to "DVD" - ie at best a close approximation that looks okay with lesser equipment, but will have the high-end people whining non-stop.

However, it will let DBS transmit many more "HD" channels. But, it may make some people look upon MPEG2 HD broadcast quality as fondly as they currently look at C-Band broadcast quality.

HDMe

01-12-05, 10:43 PM

I think a lot of people just don't know or don't understand that MPEG is not a lossless compression scheme. Even at its best, there is loss... but at its best most of us can accept it, and some don't even notice it... and it is a good trade-off to allow broadcasters to transmit more stuff with less bandwidth.

Not a big deal for your local TV station, but for your cable and satellite companies obviously if they can transmit more stuff on existing infrastructure it is a win for them, and to some extent a win for us.

I hope the Dish boxes are upgradable. I'm on a 501 and a 6000U right now. The 921 price kept me away mostly, but with potential MPEG4 down the road, I'm hesitant to buy anything new that I don't have to. My 501 is part of the lease plan, but I own my 6000U. At the time I went HD, there wasn't an 811 that you could lease or I'd have went that route.

Obviously the lease folks they'll have to upgrade or swap boxes, because they want to keep the revenue coming and sell those guys more channels! I'd like to think they'll offer a cheap/free upgrade for those of us who own boxes when the time comes for much the same reason. I can't pay for more HD if they don't make it easy for me to have a box that does it!

So for now I'm crossing my fingers...

Jacob S

01-13-05, 12:11 AM

I also think that spending extra on the new satellite receivers to make them expandable (if there would be an extra cost in doing this) would be a great investment for the companies because this would save them a lot of money in the longrun by not having to replace the receiver every time. Dish Network could even charge a fee to upgrade the receiver's memory or other parts of the receiver for enhancements to the service or offer it as a promotion.

I have a feeling that there will be a premium for any HD channel added and that may be how they pay for these receiver swapouts.