MAJOR NEWS - HDTV Changes Ahead for Dish Network

[Scott Greczkowski]

Today DBStalk.COM starts what we hope becomes a trend, in the past many things we have reported on have been unconfirmed rumors, today we start investigating our rumors for confirmation.

We hope you enjoy our investigative reporting, thanks for visiting DBStalk.COM


HDTV Changes Ahead for Dish Network
By Scott Greczkowski
(C) 2002 DBStalk.COM – All Right Reserved

Could the Dish Network model 5000 HDTV receiver soon be a doorstop? Over the past few weeks we have been hearing numerous reports from our sources indicating that this could be the case. Today in a statement issued to us by Echostar, this has now been confirmed.

According to our sources, current Dish Network 6000 owners will receive a new upgrade module, which will plug into the second unused expansion bay on the Dish 6000. This new module will use the Broadcom chipset combination of a BCM4500 and a BCM3440 HDTV chip, which will provide Echostar with more then a 35% increase in its HDTV bandwidth.

Currently Dish Network can broadcast 2 HDTV signals on one transponder. With the new Broadcom chip Dish Network will be able to broadcast 3 HDTV channels on one transponder with no loss of video quality. It is expected that this module will be provided free of charge to 6000 owners. Dish 6000 owners should begin receiving these hardware upgrades late in the third quarter of 2002.

While it is expected that normal Dish Network HDTV broadcasts will continue until all the hardware upgrades have been shipped, at some point the normal HDTV channels will be shut off. Those without the Broadcom upgrade will be left without HDTV from Dish Network. Sources indicate that there will be no Broadcom update for model 5000 owners, which will leave these HDTV receivers with no satellite HDTV. The model 5000 has been a controversial receiver for Dish Network as it has been one of the only HD receivers on the market, which could be paired with a Panasonic HD recorder to make picture perfect recordings of HD programs. This change will effectively eliminate HDTV recording using the Dish 5000 receiver, which will alleviate the copyright concerns of the industry. It is expected that Echostar will offer its Dish Network model 5000 customers a low cost upgrade to the model 6000.

When asked for a statement from Echostar on these rumors Echostar spokesman Marc Lumpkin had this statement.

“EchoStar is working hard to increase its HD channel capacity to the benefit and enjoyment of its customers. We believe this goal can be best accomplished by adding an HD adapter to the DISH Network Model 6000. Unfortunately, this may make the combination Model 5000 with the HD adapter eventually obsolete, but, fortunately, the number of these customers affected is very small. EchoStar is still evaluating as to when it will convert to the new HD modulation format.”

Lumpkin also added “EchoStar offers 4 channels of high definition today, the most in the country on a nationwide basis. We hope to continue to be the market leader in offering high definition TV. With more capacity gained from the merger of EchoStar and DIRECTV, the combined company will be able to broadcast a minimum of 12 HDTV channels.

[Scott Greczkowski]

I notice that we are getting a large number of folks reading the above article. Thanks!

If you wish to comment about it here you can! You don't even need to be registered, you can reply in the Quick Reply Box below, or you can click on the Post Reply button for more options.

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Thanks to everyone for visiting DBStalk.COM :wave:

[Richard King]

The number of 5000 receivers sold is very small (even though I own a subset of that in the DVHS unit), being that it was the most expensive non recorder receiver available at the time. The number of HDTV modules sold for this receiver is miniscule at best. I suspect that the number of these miniscule customers who have also purchased an HDTV recorder could probably be counted on the digits of one person. I don't see the above as a significant problem.

[Scott Greczkowski]

I know at least 30 people with 5000's and HD VCR's.

My Boss stockpiled 10 of them and sold them off on Ebay for a nice profit. (5000, HD Modulator and VCR)

[Martyva]

I mentioned a similar technology to several departments at dishnetwork over the past 2 years--actually a 60% improvement in bandwidth--and somehow was always connected to the negative--blow it off department.

[Adam Richey]

Well, how will we get this hardware? Will they ship it to customers with the 6000 or what?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Yes you will get it shipped to you. Just remember these changes will not happen today or tommorow, I expect some time in the fall to receive the new modules.

I just wish the new modules would have a memory increase for the 6000 so we could get OpenTV. I dont know about you guys but my receiver has an OpenTV logo on the back of it.

[invaliduser88]

So, it sounds like Dish tech standards will probably prevail after the Dish-Direct TV merger happens (if it does).

[DarrellP]

Scott, thanks for the info, sorry to see the guys at AVS take this so hard, they need to lighten up a bit.

I would like to see more memory as well. I don't care if the 6000 gets Open TV or not, but I would like to see it be able to retain more Guide Info. I have my 501 & 6000 sitting next to each other and use the 501 for guide info, the 6000 is just totally inadequate in this respect.

[rricebuyer]

Thanks for the info Scott, have been looking for info about the 5000.
For those of us who have the 5000 and no HD, what do you think is the best course of action?

[Scott Greczkowski]

Hi rricebuyer.

It depends on how soon you want HD, if you want it now buy a 6000, if you want to wait it out you might get a good deal on a 6000 or maybe even the new Dish 921 which is a HD PVR which is due out at the end of the year.

It really depends on what you want.

[Mark Lamutt]

Keep in mind that this won't affect the 5000 receivers that don't have the HDTV modulator. The base 5000's will continue to work as always - the only change is that the modulator will no longer work to receive the HD channels.

[Slickster]

The sad part is that although the user base for the 5000 w/ HDTV module is slim, I forked over $1200 just for the receiver and module not to mention the PC and tuner card to record this stuff. It sucks that they just don't offer the Broadcom module for the 5000. You know they could do it. They simply want to put to rest the Hollywood studios types still carping about copy protection. This sucks. I simply want the same functionality of time shifting I have for SDTV. And now that I have it, these jerks want to take it away. Truly amazing.

[Mark Lamutt]

No doubt about it, Slickster! I thought real seriously about doing the same thing 4 months ago, but decided against it. I just put the htpc together to record the OTA stuff.

[MarkA]

As much as I'd like to believe this, I really don't. I assume this would be using 8PSK. Well, it's my belief that when the merger takes place we'll ALL be switched to 8PSK receivers, and the 6000 will be one of the few upgradable. But I doubt this will take place on HDTV first, though I may be wrong.

[Bob Haller]

Anyone have a HDTV module for a 5000 for sale? I had thoght about this in the past. I still have my old 5000 on a shelf. Good reason to reactivate....

I wonder if this change will occur faster than the 721, my favorite vapor ware product>

[Martyva]

Don't count on it Bob, the 721 is coming this month in limited quantities.

Bob: I have one
email me
cgott42@juno.com


Originally posted by Bob Haller
Anyone have a HDTV module for a 5000 for sale? I had thoght about this in the past. I still have my old 5000 on a shelf. Good reason to reactivate....

I wonder if this change will occur faster than the 721, my favorite vapor ware product>

[Rang1995]

I have a situation where i use Directv for all but HDTV where i must use DISH ,because of what sats i can "see: from my east coast location..DirecTV's HD sat is too low and DISH regular sats are too low.. so i need the 61.5 location 40 degrees high to get over the trees..soooooo does anyone know of plans to be switching sat locations?? i hope not it would screw alot of people up!..Thanks
P.s is the replacement of the broadcom chip easy?? just pops in slot in the back on the 6000??

[Scott Greczkowski]

Rang, (Welcome! :hi )

I dont know of any plans to move the HD feeds to another satellite on the Dish Network side of things. This may and probably will happen if the merger is approved.

As far as the broadcom upgrade, it will be an easy upgrade, it is a cartridge just like the 8VSB tuner cartridge take the slot cover off, slide the cartridge in, put the holding screws in and power up.

Originally posted by Slickster
The sad part is that although the user base for the 5000 w/ HDTV module is slim, I forked over $1200 just for the receiver and module not to mention the PC and tuner card to record this stuff. It sucks that they just don't offer the Broadcom module for the 5000. You know they could do it. They simply want to put to rest the Hollywood studios types still carping about copy protection. This sucks. I simply want the same functionality of time shifting I have for SDTV. And now that I have it, these jerks want to take it away. Truly amazing.

Actually I do not think that it would be possible to design a broadcom expansion module for the 5000. Where would it go?

In fact the problems with designing anything for the 5000 are as follows:

1) The 5000 is a dead product. They do not make them anymore.

2) You would have to design some sort of module that plugged into the same expansion port as the current HDTV unit, and still had the RF out. And you would need to hope that the datastream you are looking for is available in the form you need it to be on the 5000 receiver.

3) It would still be the kludge that it is, and for the general public would still require an HDTV tuner module (which is not required by the 6000)

In other words, is it worth E* engineering taking the $$$ and time to design this new module that benefits a very small percentage of the HDTV public. The advantage for this is to get more HDTV channels.

I hardly think that the thinking behind this is to disable any sort of recording capabilities..

Reedl

[Scott Greczkowski]

I hardly think that the thinking behind this is to disable any sort of recording capabilities..

I agree with you, however its a nice bonus as I know the studios were upset about it.

[Rang1995]

received this note from DISH..i will be up the creek as i can only "see their 61.5 sat and use D* for other programming(can't see their HDTV location..i see a bad moon rising)anyway

Thank you for your email. Our long term plan is to have more HDTV available than any other programming provider. Right now, there are only three sources of high definition content for DISH Network. These three sources are HBO, Showtime and CBS. In addition, we also have some pay-per-view movies in HDTV as well.

In order to receive HDTV CBS you will first have to qualify, which you may do by contacting our Customer Service Center at 1-800-333-3474 and one of our representatives will assist you.

Both the 61.5 and 148 slots are carrying the high definition programming. We may also look at some carriage at the 110 degree location after our next satellite successfully launches. At this time, however, we cannot guarantee the alternate locations.

We will forward your request for HD Net to our programming department, however specific information is not currently available.

Your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing us to be of assistance to you. If you have any further questions or concerns, please refer to www.dishnetwork.com or reply to this email and include all previous correspondence so that we may assist you promptly.

As a current customer, you may also use our website to view your current or previous billing statements, add services, or make payments to your account. Please use the link https://customersupport.dishnetwork.com/customercare/UserManagement/login.jsp to launch yourself to the Dish Network Customer Support Center

wonder if broadcom module for 6000 ird will be available on open market for out of country users?

[Scott Greczkowski]

If they move any HD channels to 110 I would be willing to bet the HD Demo Channel would be the first. I dont see this happening for quite awhile though.

To answer out of country's answer, I think that is still up in the air, if ExpressVu decided to change as well I would say yes, however for the logistics part E* would be smart if they did not make them easily available (i.e. you need to have an activated 6000 in order to get the module) this would cut down on the number of folks looking to hack Dish for HD.

This sounds pretty cool. I do hope for one thing for sure and that is that is the new module has a built in fan like the 8VSB has that they put a better quality fan in it. My fan on the 8VSB started making noise like it was going out within 3 months of installing it.

I am pretty happy with my 6000 Bought it new in October 2000 for $298 as a new Dish subscriber with a $199 rebate so I paid $99 for it!I paid more for the 8VSB that the 6000 IRD!!!

I am all for more HDTV content and channels. Anyone that has ever experienced TRUE HDTV (not like the continuous DVD that the retail stores show on their sets) will want all HDTV content from then on.

Thanks for posting this info on the updated module.
BTW here is something I saw on www.vote.com website under the BIZ-TECH tab. It seems that Studios want to Downgrade HDTV signals to protect their copyrights. It would render earlier HDTV sets that do not have the new copy protection built in Useless for true HDTV. If interested in protecting your investment feel free to vote.

You recently voted on the question: LET STUDIOS DOWNGRADE HDTV SIGNALS RECEIVED BY EQUIPMENT THAT DOESN'T HAVE NEW COPY PROTECTIONS? Your vote of NO has been mailed to:

Michael K. Powell (mpowell@fcc.gov) Chairman, Federal Communications Commission

If you feel strongly about this issue, we encourage you to ask your friends and family to vote on it at this link: http://www.vote.com/vote/44265822/index.phtml

[garydw]

Dish advised me via e-mail that my 5000 and HDTV module would not stop working, and would continue to recevie HDTV broadcast.

If for any reason they had to change HD and it caused my 5000 to become useless then that would require DISH to provide me with equipment to watch HD at no cost.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Gary did a regular customer service rep tell you that or a Dish Network VP?

According to my sources at Dish including Dish Network spokesperson Marc Lumpkin the module will stop working. The question now is when.

[DarrellP]

If for any reason they had to change HD and it caused my 5000 to become useless then that would require DISH to provide me with equipment to watch HD at no cost
This may be true, but whatever equipment they provide you with, I'll bet you $100 it would not have the ability to record HDTV like the 5000 does when coupled with a DVHS machine.

[XuhQshinR]

Well it seems that one thing is true and that is that the 5000 will be obsolete as they are announcing that the new HDTV format is already in place with the Discovery HD Theater on Dish.

Us 6000 owners are getting the shaft as well with no FREE upgrade module but you will have to either sign up for an yearly subscript to Discovery HD Theater or goet the Disc HD at $8 per month for that ONE channel and pay $50 for the new module!!!

They will eventually move ALL the HDTV content to the new format rendering our 6000's without the new module as "Standard" receivers.

I do not know about you but when I bought mine back when they first came out on the market I thought I was buying a total HDTV receiver that would NOT need any extra expense or module to view DISH HD content.

I imagine that many people are going to complain about this type of marketing to extort $ from subscribers especially when they are already having a tough time convincing Mr. Powell with the FCC to approve their merger due to fears of Dish squeezing $ from us.

Sorry...I am just venting a little steam.

Thanks

Here is the link: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/discHD/HD6000/index.shtml

[Sherlock]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
want HD, if you want it now buy a 6000, if you want to wait it out you might get a good deal on a 6000 or maybe even the new Dish 921 which is a HD PVR which is due out at the end of the year.According to Charlie on a recent Charlie Chat, don't expect it until middle of next year.

[Sherlock]

Originally posted by DarrellP
I would like to see more memory as well. I don't care if the 6000 gets Open TV or not, but I would like to see it be able to retain more Guide Info. I have my 501 & 6000 sitting next to each other and use the 501 for guide info, the 6000 is just totally inadequate in this respect. The 6000 has enough memory for OpenTV, E* just decided not to go in that direction. I don't have the same problems with my 6000 I have with my OpenTV enabled gear.

Comparing a PVR to a non-PVR IRD for EPG storage? That's apples to oranges if I've ever seen it.

[Scott Greczkowski]

According Charlie on a recent Charlie Chat, don't expect it until middle of next year

Hey Sherlock,

Happy 4th!

That info was posted way before the last Charlie Chat happened, this thread is a few months old now.

On the note of this thread, people have started receiving the new Dish 6000 Enhanced HD Cartridges yesterday. Dish has also made an offer to 5000 owners for a new 6000 for $299, which in my book is a good deal as you get to keep your 5000. :)

[Sherlock]

Happy 4th to you too!

I was simply fleshing out the earlier statement with more info.

I like my 6000. It does what it's supposed to. I had some pretty bad issues as an early adopter, but E* got those worked out. I don't have as many problems as my 4900 and I don't use the OpenTV features anyway. I just wish we had an answer to our OTA DTV broadcast tower woes. PQ and audio are superior with OTA DTV, and if you're a fan of the local sports franchises, there's no better way to watch a game, IMO YMMV .

[Adam Richey]

Are they still giving 6000 receiver owners the module for free or what?

[HTguy]

Originally posted by XuhQshinR
Well it seems that one thing is true and that is that the 5000 will be obsolete as they are announcing that the new HDTV format is already in place with the Discovery HD Theater on Dish.

Us 6000 owners are getting the shaft as well with no FREE upgrade module but you will have to either sign up for an yearly subscript to Discovery HD Theater or goet the Disc HD at $8 per month for that ONE channel and pay $50 for the new module!!!

They will eventually move ALL the HDTV content to the new format rendering our 6000's without the new module as "Standard" receivers.

I do not know about you but when I bought mine back when they first came out on the market I thought I was buying a total HDTV receiver that would NOT need any extra expense or module to view DISH HD content.

I imagine that many people are going to complain about this type of marketing to extort $ from subscribers especially when they are already having a tough time convincing Mr. Powell with the FCC to approve their merger due to fears of Dish squeezing $ from us.

Sorry...I am just venting a little steam.

Thanks

Here is the link: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/discHD/HD6000/index.shtml

You're off base here, Mr. XuhQshinR.

Providing an enhanced HD 8PSK module at cost or free with a Disc HD Theater subscription hardly qualifies as marketing extotion.

HD technology is still developing and improving. Why did you think there were expansion ports on the back of the 6000?

:rolleyes:

[NJDan]

Are they going to send the module for free as indicated above by Scott or buy it for $49 or buy Discovery HD for a year?

[XuhQshinR]

Originally posted by HTguy


You're off base here, Mr. XuhQshinR.

Providing an enhanced HD 8PSK module at cost or free with a Disc HD Theater subscription hardly qualifies as marketing extotion.

HD technology is still developing and improving. Why did you think there were expansion ports on the back of the 6000?

:rolleyes:

I don't feel that I am off base here Mr. HDguy.

As one of the first people to get the E* 6000 upon it's release in 2000 it was told that due to the fact that no OTA standard was agreed upon at the release of the 6000 that the module was not included with the first release of the 6000 and the module would be set as soon as a standard was agreed upon.

Well what they lead you to believe was that it would be free....Not so. $149 was the average price most paid for the 8VSB.

Now if Dish does away with the current standard of HD broadcasting it will render the 6000 as a "Standard" IRD that is now "Upgradeable" to receive HD programing.

I am sure many 6000 owners would agree that the reason we paid much more for our IRD than the standard IRD's for Dish was that it was advertised as a receiver that does NOT need an adapter to receive HDTV Programing. The IRD that needed the adapter was the 5000. Big selling point for the 6000, just look at their original advertizing for the 6000 vs the 5000.

Now tell me this. When the HD standard is changed and ALL HD content is moved to the new standard that will require an adapter to receive any Dish HD content on the 6000, how will that be any different from the 5000 that needed the adapter?

It WON'T be any different. You either pay or subscribe to a channel that is hardly worth $8.00 Extra per month in a yearly lump sum and get the adapter free.
Or you pay the $50.00 for the adapter to enable your receiver to once again be able to receive HDTV again.

Either way it is a way for you to have to pay again for what you already had. HDTV! Isn't that why the price tag on the 6000 was so high in the first place?

Anyone else that owns a 6000 agree?

I know HDguy won't because he's sooo smart.

[jacmyoung]

You can write to FCC while they consider the merger request. The more we complain, the less likely we will be screwed when they switch all HDs to 8PSK.

[Scott Greczkowski]

Yes you can write the FCC but it won't do you any good. You note will go on the public record however the date for public comments has already passed.

Besides the changing of HD formats has zero to do with the merger.

Again I will say that the 5000 was never designed so that you could record HD from it. 5000 owners have been lucky up to this point that the 5000 has had this bug.

Dish's update for a 6000 is a very good one especially since you get to keep your 5000 as well.

[MarkA]

I think it's a good idea to make the switch. In fact, they should switch all programming to increase bandwidth, and give us all new receivers that are better for free! I wonder if the 721 can support 8PSK without an expansion??? :)

[jacmyoung]

They aren't even willing to give the 100 people who have the 5000s free upgrade, what make you think they will do so for the 30 million receivers?

I have been told many times writing to FCC will not work, but for the few times I wrote to them on various issues, immediate results appeared. I can't say they were the direct result of my letter or email, but it took less time than came over to the forums and moaned about the things, so why not give it a try?

Scott, if the current offer is so great, why havn't I heard anyone going for it?

[HTguy]

Originally posted by XuhQshinR





Well what they lead you to believe was that it would be free....Not so. $149 was the average price most paid for the 8VSB.

Now if Dish does away with the current standard of HD broadcasting it will render the 6000 as a "Standard" IRD that is now "Upgradeable" to receive HD programing.

I am sure many 6000 owners would agree that the reason we paid much more for our IRD than the standard IRD's for Dish was that it was advertised as a receiver that does NOT need an adapter to receive HDTV Programing.

Now tell me this. When the HD standard is changed and ALL HD content is moved to the new standard that will require an adapter to receive any Dish HD content on the 6000, how will that be any different from the 5000 that needed the adapter?

It WON'T be any different. You either pay or subscribe to a channel that is hardly worth $8.00 Extra per month in a yearly lump sum and get the adapter free.
Or you pay the $50.00 for the adapter to enable your receiver to once again be able to receive HDTV again.

Either way it is a way for you to have to pay again for what you already had. HDTV! Isn't that why the price tag on the 6000 was so high in the first place?

Anyone else that owns a 6000 agree?

I know HDguy won't because he's sooo smart.

Well, you're right. I'm sooo smart I don't agree.

Who led you to believe the 8VSB module would be free? Not E* or any reputable retailer. As a matter of fact making it a seperate module that could be improved as technology evolves is a major feature of the 6000.

DirecTV customers have always had to pay more for their HD STBs because the 8VSB module is built in. So they have to pay for it even if they can't use it. (Remember that a lot of people don't have access to OTA reception.) And they can't update it without buying a whole new STB. Ask the "early adaptors" who bought the RCA SD100 or those who bought $10K HDTVs with the tuner built in how they feel about it.

E* hasn't actually said that the 8PSK module will be required to receive all the HD content from them in the future, but if it is, and it means that twice the content will be avilable for $49 (or free with a subsciption to some service - I think we can safely assume it probably won't be limited to Discovery) most of us aren'y going to bitch & moan too much about it.

Again, the very fact that the 6000 was designed from the start to be upgradable is a huge advantage over other HD STBs.

:cool:

[Scott Greczkowski]

Scott, if the current offer is so great, why havn't I heard anyone going for it?

Because if you would read (especially at AVS) you would know that DIsh is not accepting 500 to 600 upgrade orders untill Monday the 8th. A few folks at AVS forum have already tried to get them and were told the same thing.

Reading instead of complaigning works wonders. :)

Dish 5000 owners at this point have no reason to complaign though, as they are not loosing any of the HD services made available to them.

When the current HD streams get shut off and the 5000 can no longer pick them up then you have a case. :)

Just relax and watch some TV. :D

[XuhQshinR]

Originally posted by HTguy


Well, you're right. I'm sooo smart I don't agree.

Who led you to believe the 8VSB module would be free? Not E* or any reputable retailer. As a matter of fact making it a seperate module that could be improved as technology evolves is a major feature of the 6000.

DirecTV customers have always had to pay more for their HD STBs because the 8VSB module is built in. So they have to pay for it even if they can't use it. (Remember that a lot of people don't have access to OTA reception.) And they can't update it without buying a whole new STB. Ask the "early adaptors" who bought the RCA SD100 or those who bought $10K HDTVs with the tuner built in how they feel about it.

E* hasn't actually said that the 8PSK module will be required to receive all the HD content from them in the future, but if it is, and it means that twice the content will be avilable for $49 (or free with a subsciption to some service - I think we can safely assume it probably won't be limited to Discovery) most of us aren'y going to bitch & moan too much about it.

Again, the very fact that the 6000 was designed from the start to be upgradable is a huge advantage over other HD STBs.

:cool:

Yes E* did in their wording lead us to believe that it would be free by making it sound as if it was not included only due to the fact they were waiting on a standard to be set.

Now in response to your DirecTV point. Yes I agree with the majority of your point on this. The exception is that the standard was supposed to have been set before the 6000 release but did not. The fact that many people do not yet have access to the OTA broadcasts is irrelevant to this issue. The fact remains that since they have the 8VSB tuner in their receiver they should have no issues once they are in an area that they can receive the OTA signals. Now let them finally get the signals and then the standards change and watch them have a legitimate issue to bitc# about.

You say that E* has not said that the new module will be required to receive all HD programming? It does not take a NASA Engineer to decipher this line from E* (Dish)
“HDTV is transitioning to a new standard. The HD Adapter enables your Model 6000 to receive HD Discovery Theater. Because the HD transition is happening now, the Adapter is a great investment…it allows you to enjoy ALL HDTV we offer now, plus all the HDTV we will offer in the future!”

That tells me that they are going to transfer all HD content to the new standard. I have confirmed this with a Dish E* engineer. You will eventually need the new module to view HDTV on Dish Network. I think the new standard is a very good thing, but I do not believe that we should have to subscribe to a channel in order to get it free. Discovery HD Theater is NOT worth an extra $8 per month. Doesn’t it concern anyone else that if they feel their one HD channel is worth $8 month that when they switch over they may decide to charge outrageous fee’s for all other HD content? It does concern me very much. I have enjoyed HBO and ShowTime HD since October of 2000 now I will have to dish out more money to keep it once they do the transition of ALL HDTV content.

Thanks

[HTguy]

Yes E* did in their wording lead us to believe that it would be free by making it sound as if it was not included only due to the fact they were waiting on a standard to be set.

Sorry, you are just flat out wrong on this point. As a home theater & Dish retailer w/special interest in HDTV I paid close attention to all the pricing announcements.

What they said from day one was that the 8VSB module would be "around $100 or so" and when they 1st fixed the price it turned out to be $125. But after the 1st production run they realized they would lose money at that price & upped it to $149.

That annoyed me but I accepted it as a fact of life. The 6000 is still cheaper & has better features than DirecTv HDTV STBs with or without 8VSB and it qualifies for promotions for new custs (unlike DirecTV) so it's still a good deal.

If you can post anything that proves they said it would be "free" I'll post a picture of me eating my shorts.

As far as the 8PSK module is concerned, my point is that you shouldn't expect "something for nothing." Even if all the HDs go to 8PSK getting it for cost or free on some subsrciption promo is not unreasonable for an upgrade (again, an option D* subs don't have).

HBO & Showtime have graciously not charged extra for HD feeds because custs already subscribe to their services and it doesn't cost them a lot to transfer recent films to HD or upconvert them.

But other providers, like Discovery, have to lay out considerable sums to produce their original content in HD & it is not unreasonable to expect those that want it to pay something for it. If you don't want it, or don't think it's worth it, don't subscribe.

When HDNet goes to 3 channels you can be sure that it will go commercial, including a subsciption charge. I bet the 8PSK promo will apply to people that want that as well (assuming E* gets them). The changeover won't be overnight & probably won't be completed until whatever happens with the merger shakes out & they eventually decide what other HD services they'll be adding.

[jacmyoung]

HTGuy, are were wrong all three.

In the initial Charlie chat after the 6000 news, it was said the 8VSB will be shipped to the 6000 owners free for those who order the 6000s now. This however turned out another Charlie's bad quote and was quickly replaced with what you heard.

With regard to HBO, SHO and DiscHD. Both HBO and SHO must transfer the movie masters to HD format at their own costs and transmit at their own costs, it is impossible that they can have a library of HD version of new theatrical movies releases. DiscHD however in their press release claimed they have several hundred hours of HD contents in their library already, to be used for their HD channel, they also said 20% of their future programs will be shot in HD to satisfy the continued HD broadcast. This is why for all the DiscHD you have seen so far, are all reruns from their SD channels, only in HD version.

Many DirecTV HD boxes not only enjoy discount if you sign on as a new customer, but often you can find open boxes in your local stores for much less. For example, one store in the Bay Area recently had several open box DTC100s for $197 each, and all of them included both DirecTV HD and OTA HD capabilities.

[jacmyoung]

BTW, not only all DirecTV HD boxes have built in OTA, they also do not require a dish to get OTA. The 6000 will need a dish pointed to allow OTA to work so if you later move to an apartment and do not have line of sight to the satellites, the 6000 even with the 8VSB becomes useless.

[Scott Greczkowski]

jacmyoung,

You are correct, when the 6000 was announce the 8VSB was supposed to be included with the 6000, then it was pulled and they said they would sell it for $99 extra, then indeed it came out at $99 for the 8VSB tuner cartridge.

Then the price went up from there.

[G. A. Lopez]

Originally posted by Scott Greczkowski
jacmyoung,

You are correct, when the 6000 was announce the 8VSB was supposed to be included with the 6000, then it was pulled and they said they would sell it for $99 extra, then indeed it came out at $99 for the 8VSB tuner cartridge.

Then the price went up from there.

:D How long do we all have to wait now to see the picture of HTguy eating his shorts as he promised? :D

[jacmyoung]

Am I right Charlie just said the 8PSK module will be $99 after 8/1? Anyone see the pattern?:)

$499+$149+$99 for a full functional HD STB and after the merger you will not have $197 DTC100s around as an alternative. Just think about that for a moment.

[Mark Lamutt]

Charlie screwed up the pricing last night on the chat. The 8PSK module will remain free of charge if you order a year sub of Disc-HD after August 1. It will remain $49 if you order a monthly sub to Disc-HD after August 1. These are facts that I got from the final call screener last night while I was on hold. They were *very* chagrined that Charlie said that.

I suspect that the price will be $99 if you want to order the 8PSK without subbing to Disc-HD.

[Scott Greczkowski]

If the cost for the unit was $99 just for the Enhanced HD Cartridge then a lot of people would be might PO'ed $100 is a lot to spend on a cartridge for just one channel and that channel is not even free.

Charlie goofed on that one big time.

My sources still tell me they expect all the HD Channels will be in the new format by the end of the year.

Also Charlie was LYING through his teeth when he said they had no more bandwidth to put an additional HD channel up (like HD Net) As 8PSK can handle 2 HD channels on one transponder. They are using an entire Transponder currently for Discovery HD in 8PSK, meaning they have room for another HD channel on the same transponder in 8PSK format.

[Martyva]

It was my understanding that the improvement would be 50% from two to three channels per transponder. Which is correct?

[HTguy]

Originally posted by G. A. Lopez


:D How long do we all have to wait now to see the picture of HTguy eating his shorts as he promised? :D

I'm still waiting for proof that E* said that the 8VSB module would be free. I've watched every retailer CC for 6 years, read every Facts Blast, email, Tech Bulletin and price list.

But if someone posts a transcript of a consumer chat I might have missed in which Charlie said that, even if it's a flub that isn't corrected, I solemnly promise to post the picture. And it won't be pretty! :blush:

BTW, one thing from last night's chat I picked up on is that C implied that the 8PSK module would only be necessary for new HD channels. In other words, he implied that HBO, Showtime, etc will remain in QPSK. I must admit that I am dubious about this long term but I still suspect that there will be continuing opportunities to obtain the "Enhanced Module" for free or at a substantial discount with a subscription to a service that requires it.

As far as the costs of HD for HBO & ShowTime vs. Disc are concerned, the CEO of Disc NWs addressed this in an interview in HDTV magazine. It costs them a lot more to produce new original content in HD and they have done it from the start with the intention of charging extra to those that appreciate it & support it. HBO & ST are already charging a substantial subscription price & it doesn't cost them as much to do the transfers. And not everything they put up on their HD Ch's is HD. Even a lot of the movies are merely up-converted to 1080i on those channels while being simulcast on the regular channels which isn't the same thing.

[invaliduser88]

Originally posted by HTguy


BTW, one thing from last night's chat I picked up on is that C implied that the 8PSK module would only be necessary for new HD channels. In other words, he implied that HBO, Showtime, etc will remain in QPSK. I must admit that I am dubious about this long term but I still suspect that there will be continuing opportunities to obtain the "Enhanced Module" for free or at a substantial discount with a subscription to a service that requires it.



Keeping HBO & Showtime QPSK may be the way the Dish weasels out of giving the 8PSK module away for free. "You only need the 8PSK module for new services."

[Martyva]

At 30.5 Mbps per transponder, the amount of HD per transponder, with the new technology, should be 3+ channels.

[Mark Lamutt]

I'm almost positive that 8PSK will allow Dish to have 3 HD channels per transponder, with the current QPSK allowing them to have 2 HD channels per transponder.

[G. A. Lopez]

Originally posted by HTguy


I'm still waiting for proof that E* said that the 8VSB module would be free. I've watched every retailer CC for 6 years, read every Facts Blast, email, Tech Bulletin and price list.



Here is one such source from March 29, 2000 and if you say you have been keeping up with all of the top notch news for 6 years you missed this one as Ken Knows his stuff! Now this is from Dish Consumer Chat on Channel 100" Known as "Tech Forum" back then. Hope you have clean shorts!

HDTV News Online

DISH REPORT

by Ken Fowler
Wednesday, March 29, 2000


During Dish Network's fourth "Tech Forum" (their term for a bi-monthly consumer chat on channel 100 that addresses technical issues, upcoming products, satellites, etc) last night, they offered additional details to all customers on their upcoming two-way Internet service from Gilat (details at very bottom) and model 6000 HD receiver. DISH & HDTV
- 6000 developed entirely in-house (unlike some earlier products)

- 6000 is still on schedule for shipment in mid to late April, though could slip to early May depending on feedback from quality assurance. Will initially ship without 8-VSB OTA module (coupon instead).

- Open invitation to networks with compelling HDTV programming (i.e. CBS) to have this content delivered to the markets for which Dish has obtained retransmission consent.

- 8-VSB module for 6000 will ship to customers toward the end of the second quarter; re-iterated that $499 price included this module.

- They alluded to the recent ATSC RF Task Force announcement and noted the recent questions surrounding the current standard. They referred to current products as "first generation" and emphasized that they would offer the latest technology available in the 8-VSB module (NxtWave) at the time of shipment, but did not quantify/qualify the improvements that might be expected. Rather, they spent some time detailing their modular design (showed a video on how easy it was to insert the module-- presumably easy to remove as well) and how they could offer an improved 8-VSB module in the future as new chips became available, or a dual standard module (they did not reference COFDM by name) if needed. They noted that they were the only vendor to support this modular approach for terrestrial reception.

- Unit's local channel setup will scan for locals and allow users to pick and choose which OTA analog and digital channels they want to add to the guide. For those local digital channels not detected in the scan, a graphical signal strength meter is provided to aid in any antenna orientation that might be required.

- In a video, they demonstrated seamless guide integration of satellite and over-the-air digital and analog channels. Local channels use 1-99; satellite channels begin at 100.

- When browsing through the local channels, the info screen for every over-the-air digital channel in the program guide was shown with a graphical signal quality indicator helping viewers to better diagnose any digital reception issues.

- In response to a question on HD locals via satellite, they noted that this was something for which they currently lacked sufficient bandwidth. They then referenced the spot beam satellites they had ordered, and indicated that HDTV locals were a possibility if must carry restrictions were relaxed.

- There may be some HD at the 110 degree satellite, but the vast majority will remain at 61.5. A sample ratio was given of three or four HD channels on 61.5 (requiring second dish) for every HD channel on 110 (uses same dish as standard programming). Possibility of all HD using a single dish was said to be a possibility after the appropriate satellite technologies (evidently, not coming anytime soon) became available.

- HDTV PPV is on the way. They are currently in negotiations with studios to secure content.

- Re-interated that the 6000 will offer selectable 720p/1080i output through both wideband component (YPrPb) and RGB, supporting all but "one or two" HD-ready and HDTV displays.

- Button on remote swaps between "standard," "gradual stretch," and "zoom" modes for 4:3 material on 16:9 sets; same button swaps between "crop" and "letterbox" for 16:9 material on 4:3 monitors.

- A series of software updates (available for free download via satellite) after the 6000 ships will be offered to expand functionality and usability.

- Stated their intention to remain the leader in high-definition programming; they expect to offer far more HDTV than DirecTV.

- Indicated that a receiver for timeshifting HDTV to an internal hard drive would not debut before next year due to the lack of cost-effective, high-capacity drives.

- OpenTV was said to be coming in the next few months for newer receivers; a video was shown demonstrating the OpenTV guide and various interactive features. Guide was a vast improvement over that found in their older models, and comparable to the Dishplayer menus (except with more display options). The interactively and overall integration appeared vastly superior to that offered by the Dishplayer.
http://216.239.35.100/search?q=cache:EjsHEvp-fnMC:web-star.com/hdtvnewsonline/NewsStories/EHVTEa.html+dish+6000+hd+ota&hl=en&ie=UTF-8[SIZE=3]

[Mark Lamutt]

Hmmm...looks like proof to me! :D

[jacmyoung]

It is interesting to see their promises two years ago in light of the recent offers. Back then they probably already planned the 6000 for today. So there was really not much to brag about its upgradebility.

I mean how could you brag about an open slot whose purpose is to accept an OTA module that was standard on all STBs at the time? They made it sounded like their OTA module will be more advanced but I have yet heard any user tested as so. What I heard was the current 6000 may not have the closed caption standard in place now and may have to be pulled out of the production after FCC's 7/1 deadline.

If the other slot is to incorporate firewire output as many wishful thinkers said, I can accept that, but they never even back then planned it for this purpose, but for 8PSK. They may call that a great advancement in HDTV, but from a consumer's point of view, just another way of receiving the same kind of HDTV, but for an added cost.

I have not in my memory an electronic product continue to cost more throughout its life span while not offering any more funtionality as it was initially designed. Have you?

[HTguy]

Originally posted by G. A. Lopez


Here is one such source from March 29, 2000 and if you say you have been keeping up with all of the top notch news for 6 years you missed this one as Ken Knows his stuff! Now this is from Dish Consumer Chat on Channel 100" Known as "Tech Forum" back then. Hope you have clean shorts!

HDTV News Online

DISH REPORT

by Ken Fowler
Wednesday, March 29, 2000


During Dish Network's fourth "Tech Forum" (their term for a bi-monthly consumer chat on channel 100 that addresses technical issues, upcoming products, satellites, etc) last night, they offered additional details to all customers on their upcoming two-way Internet service from Gilat (details at very bottom) and model 6000 HD receiver. DISH & HDTV
- 6000 developed entirely in-house (unlike some earlier products)

- 6000 is still on schedule for shipment in mid to late April, though could slip to early May depending on feedback from quality assurance. Will initially ship without 8-VSB OTA module (coupon instead)...

- 8-VSB module for 6000 will ship to customers toward the end of the second quarter; re-iterated that $499 price included this module...


Well, I never heard of this Ken Fowler guy & you don't cite a publication I can look up. I would have taken Tony's word as gospel.

But, I admit, it looks legit so lest there be any question of welching I will prepare the photographic form of my penalty for hasty words as soon as the next wash is done.

But I will not retreat w/o a retort to Mr. jacmyoung, who states,
Many DirecTV HD boxes not only enjoy discount if you sign on as a new customer, but often you can find open boxes in your local stores for much less. For example, one store in the Bay Area recently had several open box DTC100s for $197 each, and all of them included both DirecTV HD and OTA HD capabilities.

Again, as a retailer I can plainly state that there is no promotion for new DirecTv subscribers that want an HDTV system. Individual retailers may discount new hardware slightly and a cust may pick up liquidated or close-out merchandise but that is not the same thing.

There is no "buy-down" for DirecTv retailers for HDTV eqmt so they pay essentially what the cust pays. That's the same for E* retailers but w/D* there is no provision for free installation or programming as there is w/ the current 1-2-3 promo for DISH 6000 system custs (who also are offered a 2nd rcvr for $50 off.)

So I go to the laundry feeling safe in the statement that the 6000 system remains a better value with or without 8VSB or 8VSK.
:soapbox:

[jacmyoung]

Since I have no desire to see the photo, I feel less guilt of making you feel less safe :)

From the consumer stand point, what the dealers get is not relavent. If I can go to Blockbuster and buy a basic receiver for $10 which includes an elliptical dish if I tell them I need the Spanish package, and go to next store buys a brand new HD receiver such as Hughes or Panasonic, with OTA, for under $500, I can go home and wait on a free install, have both receivers activated, get all the free programming deals from DirecTV as a new sub, and go back to Blockbuster and get free movie rental for an entire year as a bonus, then even the least expensive comparable 6000/300 system deal ($699 online last I checked) is no match.

[DarrellP]

But, I admit, it looks legit so lest there be any question of welching I will prepare the photographic form of my penalty for hasty words as soon as the next wash is done.
What do you mean, wait till the wash is done? You have to eat them suckers seasoned!!

[Scott Greczkowski]

Ken Fowler was big into HD and Satellite news way back then, but then he dropped of the face of the earth (I understand however that he is indeed alive and well)

[G. A. Lopez]

Originally posted by HTguy


But, I admit, it looks legit so lest there be any question of welching I will prepare the photographic form of my penalty for hasty words as soon as the next wash is done.

So I go to the laundry feeling safe in the statement that the 6000 system remains a better value with or without 8VSB or 8VSK.
:soapbox:

I guess he fell in? :lol:

Do you need a good review on a digital camera before you can post a pic?:D

[HTguy]

OK, OK, I'm back.

The deed has been done & recorded for posterity. :blush:

Turned out I did need a new camera but I was planning on getting one anyway. (Got the LogiTech 315 for $60 after sale & rebate and I must say, for the $ it's not bad and the SW is OK, too.) Took me a while to install & learn it, tho. :computer:

Then I put up a website (1st time for me) and I was setting up a page to post it on & link to but it turned into too much of a project w/my work & everything else. :bang

In the meantime my own DISH multiswitch failed & I spent the morning today getting that fixed & my PVR501 back on the air.

So I'll just upload it from home tomorrow. You guys just might be sorry you ever had to witness it. :eek2:

[HTguy]

Originally posted by jacmyoung
Since I have no desire to see the photo, I feel less guilt of making you feel less safe :)

From the consumer stand point, what the dealers get is not relavent. If I can go to Blockbuster and buy a basic receiver for $10 which includes an elliptical dish if I tell them I need the Spanish package, and go to next store buys a brand new HD receiver such as Hughes or Panasonic, with OTA, for under $500, I can go home and wait on a free install, have both receivers activated, get all the free programming deals from DirecTV as a new sub, and go back to Blockbuster and get free movie rental for an entire year as a bonus, then even the least expensive comparable 6000/300 system deal ($699 online last I checked) is no match.

OK, well I guess if you are going to go around & around from place to place and scrape up something here and something there you can sort of beat the system on bennies if not price. For HDTV most consumers are looking for a turn-key solution w/a reputable dealer they know in my experience.

I don't know what "brand new" HD rcvrs w/8VSB you think you're going to get for $500 over-the counter in any case (that's not what they go for around here since they cost more than that) but they are not the equal of the 6000 & your "basic" DirecTV recvr is not the equal of the 301.

And who says the D* installer is going to do both rcvrs for free? You only bought one @BB, remember? That's all they're obligated to do. And don't forget the SAT C kit.

Apples & oranges.

:rant:

[DP1]

Originally posted by HTguy

I don't know what "brand new" HD rcvrs w/8VSB you think you're going to get for $500 over-the counter in any case (that's not what they go for around here since they cost more than that) but they are not the equal of the 6000 & your "basic" DirecTV recvr is not the equal of the 301.



Wrong. Best Buy at least in some areas has advertised the Hughes E86 for 499.99 two weeks running.

And trust me it's every bit the equal of the 6000 (and it's POS program guide for one thing) and then some. I've used both everyday for a year..had the 6000 over 2 years. Well albeit I have the Mitsu SR-HD5 but it's the Hughes clone so close enough.

[HTguy]

Can you manually scan for OTA digital stations? Can you lable them when the station's PSIP isn't on? Does it pull in distant locals from +30 miles? Is it capableof 8PSK or future 8VSB upgrades? Do you get free professional installation from competent experienced local full-service independent retailers who know how to set up your HDTV & HT system properly? Is it the current latest model? (NOT the HD5?) Do you get a 2nd full featured rcvr for $49 w/discounted programming?

Look, I already conceeded that you can get discounts on older & liquidated models. I'm just saying there's no promos for NEW D* custs who want HDTV like there is w/DISH (inc. the free install).

And starting 8/1 the deals are even better. If you already have a D* system obviously you'll get a D* HDTV rcvr. I set custs up w/them all the time. But only the latest model straight from the factory. FWIW, IMO the Sony HD100 is was the best but they're gone for the most part & I look forward to the new version next month.

[HTguy]

:grin:

Just so you guys know I have good taste in underware to begin with:

[HTguy]

Penance time.
:crying:

[Mark Lamutt]

HTguy - :lol:

You are da man!

[jacmyoung]

"Does it pull in distant locals from +30 miles? Is it capableof 8PSK or future 8VSB upgrades? "

My old DTC100 pulls in from $60 miles away.

In a previous post I already said the two "upgrade" slots on 6000 have already been used up and they did not add any new functionality than originally designed. So give it up already, they were never there for the consumers, but for the benefit of Dishnetwork, especially at the cost of the consumers.

But I admit those slots are a good sales pitch before an uninformed customer and therefore help you to sell more, to that extent you win.

[jacmyoung]

To think once the merger is done, HTguy will be the only HD game in town makes me shiver.

[HTguy]

Originally posted by jacmyoung
"Does it pull in distant locals from +30 miles? Is it capableof 8PSK or future 8VSB upgrades? "

My old DTC100 pulls in from $60 miles away.

In a previous post I already said the two "upgrade" slots on 6000 have already been used up and they did not add any new functionality than originally designed. So give it up already, they were never there for the consumers, but for the benefit of Dishnetwork, especially at the cost of the consumers.

But I admit those slots are a good sales pitch before an uninformed customer and therefore help you to sell more, to that extent you win.
:sure:
Is it possible that you don't really get it? Are you just a spoiled grapes D* loyalist since you have the old RCA DTC100? Are you a clerk at a D* box store like CC or BB?

:soapbox:
The 6000 is consumer designed. A cust can get it with or without 8VSB module according to his needs & desires and he can wait & get or upgrade to 3rd or 4th or future generations of 8VSB if and when he wants to. He can upgrade to 8PSK now for free if he wants Disc HD or he can do it later if he wants the added HD prgramming that it will allow.

BTW, I don't see the 8PSK deal as being that different then the Sat C kit deal for D*subs who want Showtime HD. They get it almost for free (they have to pay shipping) if they subscibe to SHO. But then they have to go up on the roof or wherever to install it or pay someone to do it, right? E* custs have had SHO HD all along & still don't need to buy or install anything to get it.

The 6000 was designed from the start to be flexible and upgradable unlike DirecTv HD STBs where you take it or leave it and have to start all over if you want to upgrade. I know there are plenty of DTC100 owners that wish they could upgrade (a
few of them are mine).

I have a lot of custs on the Palos Verdes Penisula, a big hill on the So. Ca. coast. They have direct line of sight across the LA basin to the transmitters on Mt. Wilson, 35-45 miles away. With new high-gain Winegard antennas not a single D* HD STB pulls in all the local digital OTAs consistently. KNBC drops out intermittently, KTTV (Fox) only comes in sporatically (never for most since the scan can rarely lock on it) and KCOP (UPN) doesn't come in at all.

Some of my custs live on the other side of the hill. For them we attempt to get the digital OTAs from San Diego (90-100 miles). The lucky D* custs get a few intermittently.

All my 6000 custs get all the OTAs consistently in either direction with only occasional "weather outages" from SD. Several former D* subs have switched over to E* & are very happy to have done so.

The D* STBs I have used are the RCA (with the necessary adapter, another required expense I might add and it does nothing to enhance the PQ - quite the opposite), the Mitsubishi & the Sony. I've never tried the Hughes, Panasonic or Toshiba. I rate the Sony best in my experience for features & performance but it's still not as good or as flexible as the 6000 system.

New E* custs get the 6000 system on a promo that gets them a 301 for 1/2 price or $50 off a PVR + over $150 off in programming. It gets even better soon. And the 301 isn't a "basic" model like the 2800, etc. It includes enhanced features like the Open TV platform, event & VCR timers, etc. And, guess what? It's upgradable. They can also get a free installation of everything from an experienced local pro who will also set it up properly w/their HDTV & HT system.

Try getting that deal at BB or CC. While your at it, tell them you have an old model you would like to upgrade.

I guess there will always be whiners & wankers who think they should always get free upgrades as the technology improves. Some even come into my store. I ask them when the last time was their computer got a free upgrade.

I started with a 200meg ComPaq about 6 years ago & almost immediately had to put in a new video card, more RAM & a better modem. Last year I got a new one & the other day I had to buy a new camera to replace my old 3Com USB. To whom should I complain? I didn't think I was supposed to.
:rant:

[jacmyoung]

I am a long time Dishnetwork sub, had 6000 myself, also use DTC100 for HDNet.

You just don't get it. You can brag all you want about the 6000 upgradability, but what I was telling you was its two slots upgrade options are a joke. There is NO planned new upgrade adaptor in the future, until then, the 6000 now cost:

$499+$149+$49 to be fully functional, AS IT WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED, pure and simple. NOTHING NEW on 6000 was introduced since its inception from the consumer stand point, except the costs were up. Yes you can expect a "free" upgrade here and there, that can be over anytime they want to, and after the merger you can bet they will.

To say the 6000 is the best can only come from a 6000 dealer. Again I will agree that if the merger is on, the 6000 will be the best and worst since there would be no second best nor second worst.

[HTguy]

Originally posted by jacmyoung
You just don't get it. You can brag all you want about the 6000 upgradability, but what I was telling you was its two slots upgrade options are a joke. There is NO planned new upgrade adaptor in the future...


OK. I "get it" now. The 2 slots are a joke because now you can use them both. Thank you. I guess I'm not as smart as I thought I was.

E* should have just shipped the 6000 w/a 1st generation 8VSB module built in for the higher price whether or not the cust could use it...just like RCA. Making it an option, waiting to see if 8VSB would remain the standard and then offering a 2nd generation version for those that wanted it was a dumb idea.

To have an expansion slot for future upgrades was stupid, too, because coming up with a technology that could mean more HD channels from satellite would also mean that port would have to be used. What a joke. Thank you for setting me straight.

The only thing I am still unclear about is your statement that there are no future upgrades planned. This is at variance with what Mr. Michael Dugan, the former VP & chief of engineering & current President of E* seems to think. I guess you could be on the board of directors with over-site of him & the engineering dept. But then it seems odd that you would be flaming E*.

If you want to slam them anyway why didn't you bring up a valid criticism like the 2nd dish? I would have jumped right on your bandwagon.

When they introduced the Dish500 @CES 3+ yrs ago they said it meant 500chs including HD on one dish. When they 1st put up the HD @61.5 & then @148 soon after I was extremely disappointed. E* HD subs now need an antenna farm for full functionality: 2 dishes & an OTA antenna. That's no problem for someone like me who is master of his own domain but it is a serious issue for apt. dwellers, condo owners & well-off aesthetes with nice homes.

And the sad thing is that they're just waiting for the merger before changing anything. With E7 online @119 E6 is just "sleeping" and E4 is "sleeping" @148 alongside E1 there so they really have the capacity to do HD full CONUS on one dish w/AK & HA using 148. Why not let new HD subs get it on the D500 right now and let those that want to remove their "extra" dish?

If I wanted to flame E* that's what I would say. Well, I guess I just did.

[jacmyoung]

Wrong again :) If the merger is in, the conus slots will be reserved for LIL first because FCC will required that all 200+ markets are conus. The HD channels may come later once they migrate all subs to a single platform. They are not going to put some HDs on conus and risk their 200+ LILs plan because this will be the single most important thing about the merger if they want FCC approval. No other service can take the priority over this. So multiple dishes for HDs will continue for quite a while.

I am not critisizing Dish for the side satellites because it is not up to them, they don't have enough conus bandwidth.

But on to the two expension slots, please don't put your words in my mouth. I never said the expension slots are a bad thing, only the way they utilized the expansion capbility of the 6000s did not bring any (I will say it again) NEW functionality to the 6000 as it was originally designed, therefore to a subscriber the only thing that is transparent is continued increase of costs:

I will try this again:

1st, $499 + free 8VSB
2nd, $499 + $99 8VSB
3rd, $499 + $149 8VSB
4th, $499 + $149 8VSB + $49 8PSK
possible 5th, $499 + $149 8VSB + $99 8PSK

All along there is NO additional functionality added to the receiver.

Of course you can believe they will come out some new adaptor for 6000, but even Dish Tech is quiet on this now so have your little dream.

I bought my DTC100 for $250 two years ago, used it for OTA only, later signed on to DirecTV for HDNet, try that with your 6000 and report back to me please.

Look, the reason we will not change each other's mind is partly because we have our own special interests. You want to sell the 6000s because this is the only HD receiver you get to sell, I want to compare the funtionality of a receiver and the TOTAL cost I have to spend to reach that goal. We are biased in the opposite ways.

[Scott Greczkowski]

I have played with both the 6000 and the DTC-100 and both are excellent receivers.

The biggest problem with the Dish 6000 is that you need a satellite signal in order to watch an over the air program.

[HTguy]

Originally posted by jacmyoung

But on to the two expension slots, please don't put your words in my mouth. I never said the expension slots are a bad thing, only the way they utilized the expansion capbility of the 6000s did not bring any (I will say it again) NEW functionality to the 6000 as it was originally designed, therefore to a subscriber the only thing that is transparent is continued increase of costs...

All along there is NO additional functionality added to the receiver.

-Well, you said repeatedly they were a "joke" & that they were just there to rip off customers. Technically, they don't provide "NEW" functionality, just enhanced functionality. My point, as you know, is that it makes the 6000 more versatile and flexible.

Of course you can believe they will come out some new adaptor for 6000, but even Dish Tech is quiet on this now so have your little dream.

-There is absolutely no reason to believe there won't be later generation 8VSB mdules. They are improving the chip set to make it more sensitive, stable & economical as well as running cooler to reduce fan noise. It's conceivable that the 8PSK module can be superceded as well. Of course current D* boxes will never have it.

I bought my DTC100 for $250 two years ago, used it for OTA only, later signed on to DirecTV for HDNet, try that with your 6000 and report back to me please.

-I have been talking all along about the promotional economics for a NEW customer. If you still want confuse the issue by talking about buying used, demo or liquidated STBs on ebay or whatever I have an "open box" 6000 I will be happy to sell for $250. I'll throw in the 8VSB module for another $50. These kind of deals will always be around somewhere and it is not what I was addressing as you very well know.

Look, the reason we will not change each other's mind is partly because we have our own special interests. You want to sell the 6000s because this is the only HD receiver you get to sell, I want to compare the funtionality of a receiver and the TOTAL cost I have to spend to reach that goal. We are biased in the opposite ways.

-WRONG. I do sell & install DirecTv HD rcvrs when appropriate for the cust (existing D* sub, new cust wants Sunday Ticket, can't have 2 dishes, LOS issues, etc.) My comments all along have been based on experience, not bias. I admit that I personally prefer E* & recommend it to most new custs. But if D* had better either better promos for new HD custs, more HD channels, better performance, etc. I would start "pushing" it in a heartbeat!

[jacmyoung]

How many open box 6000s with 8VSB do you have that you want to sell at $300? They sell over $450 on EBay and I am surprised you are still holding them up.

Of course there is always the possibility that some new adaptor will be introduced on 6000s, but judging from the past you can tell that from the very beginning Dishnetwork had the current 8VSB and 8PSK for the 6000s in mind. They may be working on some new models to replace the 6000s. The slots were not intended for other new and more advanced functionality despite many early 6000 buyers' wishful thinking or your continued sales pitch.

A full functional 6000 now list for $747, compared to $499 (also intended as full functional in their initial claim) when it first came out, that was all I want to point out. Can you dispute this fact? Can you not consider this at least a bit strange in the electronics business?

I am right on mark when I said you are using the open slots as a sales pitch, because ask anyone who is familiar with the electronics world, you buy what's offerred to you now, not what it may give you in the future.

[HTguy]

Originally posted by jacmyoung
How many open box 6000s with 8VSB do you have that you want to sell at $300? They sell over $450 on EBay and I am surprised you are still holding them up.

-Only one. I don't trade on ebay & it's not worth the hassle for me to put one up. I'd rather give this deal to a good existing cust. But if you're interested, email me.

Of course there is always the possibility that some new adapter will be introduced on 6000s, but judging from the past you can tell that from the very beginning Dishnetwork had the current 8VSB and 8PSK for the 6000s in mind. They may be working on some new models to replace the 6000s. The slots were not intended for other new and more advanced functionality despite many early 6000 buyers' wishful thinking or your continued sales pitch.

A full functional 6000 now list for $747, compared to $499 (also intended as full functional in their initial claim) when it first came out, that was all I want to point out. Can you dispute this fact? Can you not consider this at least a bit strange in the electronics business?

- If what you say were really true (it's not) it would not be all that strange. Prices often rise as new features & capabilities come out. It's just that 6000 owners don't have to buy a whole new model to get them. Plus, new subscribers get a promotion that pays them back in free programming, installation & a 2nd rcvr as I keep pointing out. New model D* boxes list for $800 & don't have 8PSK capability. That's w/o dish, install, etc., etc.

And I don't know of anybody anywhere who has paid $49, let alone $99 (as you seem to be anticipating) for the 8PSK module. Do you? And I don't think many people ever will.

BTW, did you whine about the need for the Sat-C kit when D* decided to put SHO HD on 110? You never told us. Some people actually have paid $50 for them & some have paid for installation.

I am right on mark when I said you are using the open slots as a sales pitch, because ask anyone who is familiar with the electronics world, you buy what's offerred to you now, not what it may give you in the future.

-I don't use the flexibility & versatility of the slots in my "pitch." I ask the cust if he has OTA reception capability, whether he'd be interested in subscribing to Disc HD right away, etc. Then we can tailor the system to meet his needs. And he won't pay anything for the 8PSK module if he needs it now & probably won't if he does later on.


I'm through with this thread & this debate now since it's obvious you're just going to keep on being a "hard head." The argument started because of your (IMO) characterization of the 8PSK upgrade as some kind of rip-off. I'll never agree to that nor, dare I say, do most of the members on this forum.

You evidently were right about someone at E* implying at some point that there would be no charge for the 8VSB module so I admitted my error and public ally humbled myself.

On the other hand, you don't seem to be the type of person who can admit when he is wrong. If you think manufacturers owe you free upgrades for life you know you are going to be sad & disappointed. If it helps you to vent your frustration about it here so be it. :shrug:

[DP1]

And I don't know of anybody anywhere who has paid $49, let alone $99 (as you seem to be anticipating) for the 8PSK module. Do you? And I don't think many people ever will.
__________________________

Theres a number of guys over at AVS that have ordered the 8PSK module for the 6000 but they had to prove their loyalty by committing to Discovery for a year. But I'm not prepared to do that just yet. This module at this moment in time is purely for E*'s benefit and not mine. If it was a multiple HD channels at once (or even over a few month period) addition it might be a different story (more Network feeds, HDNet etc). But not just as a way to get people to bite on it with a commitment now. They coulda squeezed this one channel in as it stands. Especially at 8 bucks a pop. Which is another point. I dont have a big prob with that price alone but not as a double whammy of having to committ for a year or dropping an extra 50.00 Naturally it's not really the money, but the principle of it.

But if you know a way for me to get the module for nothing more than the cost of shipping and a simple month to month on Discovery, I'm all ears.

Dont get me wrong, were it not for the fact that I'm a D* HD customer too I'd probably go for the deal as it is.

And speaking of D* and the Sat C deal there is a difference which is that it's common "knowledge" more HD channel's are coming to D*. More HDNet channels if nothing else.

Anything else logical to assume is coming to E* anytime soon that would justify the new module to a cynic like me?

[jacmyoung]

"I'm through with this thread"

This is the only sensible thing I have heard from this guy so far. Obviously he was wrong and could not respond to my umnbers with specific examples.

The difference is he considers anyone who disagree with him a hard head and ended up eating his own shorts, I agree to disagree.

[leszek]

It is now a year from the original article and my 5000 is still working like a champ!

[JohnL]

Well it seems that one thing is true and that is that the 5000 will be obsolete as they are announcing that the new HDTV format is already in place with the Discovery HD Theater on Dish.

Us 6000 owners are getting the shaft as well with no FREE upgrade module but you will have to either sign up for an yearly subscript to Discovery HD Theater or goet the Disc HD at $8 per month for that ONE channel and pay $50 for the new module!!!

They will eventually move ALL the HDTV content to the new format rendering our 6000's without the new module as "Standard" receivers.

I do not know about you but when I bought mine back when they first came out on the market I thought I was buying a total HDTV receiver that would NOT need any extra expense or module to view DISH HD content.

I imagine that many people are going to complain about this type of marketing to extort $ from subscribers especially when they are already having a tough time convincing Mr. Powell with the FCC to approve their merger due to fears of Dish squeezing $ from us.

Sorry...I am just venting a little steam.

Thanks

Here is the link: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/programming/discHD/HD6000/index.shtml

I dont' know where you got that from. All the Dish Tech forums and many in the know would have told you that the standards and the copy protection issues weren't resolved and the that connectivity as well as the transmission protocols that are to be used as well as the best encyption standards would likely change.

Tough grapes, but that is what you get when you are on the bleeding edge of technology, sorry that you feel you have been slighted. Look at the bright side you have seen the future of TV in your home for quite some time and you have enjoyed your HD content. That unfortunately that is the price for being on the edge of technology.

I don't get it that you are griping about purchasing an addon module to do 8SPK to your 6000 that will cost you 99 bucks. You have a minimum of 1 to 3 thousand dollars invested in your HDTV, also with the new 8SPK standard it allow Dish to better use their limited bandwidth and allow you to subscribe to MORE HD CONTENT.

John

[Timco]

This thread is a little bit old ...