No Name Based Recording for 921 or older Dish DVRs (as of right now...) [Archive]

Scott Greczkowski

12-16-04, 07:50 PM

Mark thank you for looking into this.

Just for the record here is a FULL copy of the email I was sent by Dish Network. (Mark you can edit the headers if you wish, I just want to show this is a real email) :)

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Scott,

At this time, there are no plans to upgrade 921 receivers with Name Based recording. This feature will be implemented in 522 and all DVR receivers going forward

Thanks,

DC

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Greczkowski [mailto:scott@satelliteguys.us]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 10:59 AM
To: DishChat
Subject: Question for the chat

On an earlier chat this year it was announced that the 921 would also be getting Name Based Recording and it was announced this would happen before the end of the year.

So the question is when will the 921 get name based recording?

Also when will channel 6045 be made available to subscribers? This is the Sirius Rap Channel.

Thanks

Scott
Nationwide Satellite

TNGTony

12-16-04, 09:12 PM

So I guess us 721 owners are screwed too. Oh well!

See ya
Tony

kzosat

12-17-04, 06:32 AM

Ya know, as much as I want NBR, I also see problems with it since the guide is wrong half the time anyways and I end up recording X-mas specials (parts of them) instead of my show.

mwgiii

12-17-04, 10:13 AM

My problem, if this is true, is the way Dish treats its "high-end" customers.

I don't have a problem with the firewire. I wasn't planning on archiving.

I don't have a problem with the 921 price drop, that happens in electronics (even though an almost 50% drop hurts my feelings).

I do have a major problem with having to subscribe to locals to get guide data when I can get my HD locals OTA.

I do have a major problem not getting NBR.

The 921 is Dish's "flagship" receiver. Most of its users have AEP + HD pack (I also have the Multi-sport pack and additional receiver fee plus ESPN Gameplan and several PPVs per month). But the 921 is treated by Dish like a "red-headed step-child". The lowly 111 receiver has better software (Open TV).

This whole ordeal is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth. I understand Dish needing to add new subscribers, but it will take 5 or more new subscribers to at AT60 to equal what I pay if/when I head out the door.

Scott Greczkowski

12-17-04, 11:07 AM

I am now seriously believing this is NOT a rumor. I have spoken to a few Echostar emplyees who do not want to be identified who have confirmed the news.

Also the fact that Mark has not posted anything from his contacts speaks volumes to me. The silence speaks many words.

It is now Noon so for the benifit of all Dish Network DVR owners I have decided to get an official statement from Echostar on this matter. I have sent the below email down to the press folks at Echostar asking for a statement.

I will post whatever they send back.

Good morning guys,

On the March Edition of the Consumer Tech chat it was stated that “Name Based Recording” would be available on ALL Dish Network DVRs by this summer (2004)

Yesterday Name Based recording was made available to the 522.

I sent in an email asking when we would see Name Based Recording on the 921 and was sent back the following response.

“Scott,
At this time, there are no plans to upgrade 921 receivers with Name Based recording. This feature will be implemented in 522 and all DVR receivers going forward”

Would you please clarify what’s going on an issue a statement on the future of name based recordings on all Dish Network DVR’s.

I look forward to your replies, Happy Holidays!

Scott

tweaver999

12-17-04, 11:10 AM

I agree 100% ... I have almost all that Dish offers, I have been a user/tester of the 921 for 9 months now. The 921 should be a leading factor for all of their high-end customers... yet they seem to put it last on the list of priorities along with the 921 customers... To have their top-of-line product still not stable enough for 75% of their best customers trust its function... is mis-management and terrible PR. I have pretty much given up that the 921 will ever be better than what it is now... Tivo/DirectTV look to be the way we are being forced to go. I have stayed with E* ONLY because I have all of the remote networks from NY and LA. The 2 tuner concept was a plus.... BUT, I am very close( I have started the conversion process ) to giving up and going thru the remote locals approval process again and I WILL by 2 Tivo/HD recorders if I really decide this is something I need to do. I still have my older ReplayTV SD recorders and from the guide to their superior recording functions( by theme,name,time,etc), plus "commercial advance" , the 4 year software is so much better than the 921 it is pitiful. Tell Charlie that. I am going to try and email this to E* also... not that it will do ANY good.

tom weaver

Mark Lamutt

12-17-04, 11:19 AM

Confirmed from my sources as well. :(

Of course, you all well know that Dish management has changed their minds before, should the upswell among users be strong enough...

Scott Greczkowski

12-17-04, 11:23 AM

Thank you Mark for working on this. I appreciate the time you spent.

As much as I may have looked like an ass, I was really hoping you would have came back with a different answer.

The question is what do we do now...

Mark Lamutt

12-17-04, 11:24 AM

Me too, Scott! :D

Upswell is what the users do, to the standard email addresses, phone numbers, etc. Be heard!

Mark Lamutt

12-17-04, 11:27 AM

BUT, I want to pass along something else before everyone assumes that this means that the 921 is dead. IT'S NOT DEAD! I've been told parts of the 921 development plan for the coming year, and there is an extensive list of bug fixes (obviously) AND NEW FEATURES that are planned out until at least the end of Q3 of 2005. 921 development is not stopping dead here as soon as the L211 bugs are fixed. It will be continuing for at least the next 9 months.

We've lost NBR (for now anyways), but we haven't yet lost the 921.

AVJohnnie

12-17-04, 11:27 AM

The question is what do we do now...

Do without, I suppose...

cleblanc

12-17-04, 12:01 PM

This is the last straw for me. This is on top of the local guide fiasco which we have not gotten back any official response from Dish. They even deny a problem exists. I have sent numerous emails to Dish about this and have gotten no response. I don't expect that they will ever publicly acknowledge the local guide issue or what they intend to do, nor do I expect they will admit that NBR is a dead issue on the 921. Especially after they promised it on a tech chat. They have really treated the 921 owners very shabbily and I don't even see any new HD channels on the horizon. What really pisses me off is they always have room for international channels and the ability to upgrade the cheapest low-level receivers. I will be switching my service as soon as I can and give my $100 a month that I pay elsewhere. This is very disheartening to me since I have been with Dish since the beginning with a model 2000 receiver.

mwgiii

12-17-04, 12:18 PM

Well, I sent an e-mail to ceo, Charlie, & Jim Defranco.

I doubt it will help, but at least it makes me feel better that I tried to do everything I could do before I look at other options.

BTW, my e-mail was very similar to my post above.

mwsmith2

12-17-04, 12:55 PM

Upswell is what the users do, to the standard email addresses, phone numbers, etc. Be heard!

Yeah, it just sucks that we have to stage a revolt to get what they promised. :nono2: I've lurked in these forums since last november, but I can't see for the life of my why we have to scream bloody murder to get what they said they would give us.

Mamma always told me "Say what you are gonna do, then do it".

I think I need to send my maw over to dish and have her yank on their ear.

Michael

Scott Greczkowski

12-17-04, 01:18 PM

Its unfortunate that Dish Network treats its loyal customers this way.

No one forced them to go on the tech chat and announce that NBR was coming to ALL DVR's, they went on TV and did it on their own.

Its also unfortune that if we want them to listen we must yell at them, sending them email may or may not work, it is easy for them to delete messages they don't want to answer. (Which just shows how much they value you as a customer)

I suggest that perhaps its time we get the press involved.

I urge everyone to email mhopkins@mediabiz.com who is the editor of SkyReport. In your email to Michael Hopkins tell him why your upset, give facts and figures and tell him why you are upset, also tell him you are a SatelliteGuys or DBSTalk member.

Let's get the PRESS alerted to whats going on here.

We have the voices when we use them all together then listen to how loud we can yell. :)

DonLandis

12-17-04, 01:27 PM

Complain all you want but the reality is you speak with your $. As long as the constant back peddling on promisses made continue to have no affect on their revenue stream, they will continue to stop fixes one by one until they see a decline in revenue.
Mark while I respect what you have told us you have been told by E* will be in the works for the coming year, what guarantee have they given you what they told you is not just more of the same promises that will be broken when they decide to?
As you know, from the beginning I never believed they would have OTA guide data that works and certainly not NBR like the TIVO for the 921. It was just to fool us into buying into it and waiting for them to offer.

The fact of life as a DishNetwork early adopter is becoming very clear- If you want what they dish out to you, then continue sending in your money. Be a sucker for the 942 as well. If you want TIVO like features, don't buy an E* receiver and wait for them to keep their promises. Just buy the TIVO and be done with it.

Scott, you have the right idea, get the press involved. This must begin to affect their PR credibility.

All I can say is everything they have done since the Dishwire fiasco has given me assurance to make radical changes to my DBS budget for next year. I don't know what I will be keeping at this point but it will be about 10% of what I am paying them now. At this point the cost of adding more HD capacity to my TIVO makes far more sense than keeping my Dish AEP. The change for me will take place shortly after CES.

SAEMike

12-17-04, 01:29 PM

What do we do now?

Cable, cable cable.

Too bad DirecTV is not an option up here.

Scott Greczkowski

12-17-04, 01:38 PM

Don,

I agree that you should vote with your $$$ however I also feel that if you just leave Dish you are not making a big enough differnce. Dish will just sign up another customer to take your place and treat them the same way. No sweat off their back and they will even laugh at you and tell you if you want to come back it will cost you $25 for the privilidge.

I think getting the press involved is the best way because now the word gets out of whats really going on and future customers thinking about Dish Network may think twice about signing up.

I also want to mention one thing and I hope no one comes down on Mark Lamutt for any of this, I don't believe you will see him as vocal as me about this. He has too much going on to be the loudmouth, me on the other hand has always spoken my mind and I have no problem whatsoever about telling the truth of whats going on and I am not affraid of offending or upsetting anyone at Dish Network with my comments, as I am not out to make friends at Dish, I am here to help other consumers get the most from their satellite service.

David_Levin

12-17-04, 01:50 PM

Maybe Dish figures that it'll take another 6 month to get NBR, and 6 months after that they'll be swapping out 921's for MPEG4 boxes.

of course, I think it'll probably end up 2-3 years before we see any mpeg4, and will therefore be using our 921's for awhile yet.

My dream has an mpeg4 card for the 921 (but then my dream also has DishWire, a 2nd hard drive in the 921 expansion bay, and NBR).

Thanks Echostar, you never cease to disappointment.

tech_head

12-17-04, 01:57 PM

Hi,

I guess, I be cancelling my 921 purchase. Install is suppoed to happen tomorrow.
It sucks and I've told Dish that to screw current loyal customers is not a good thing.
NBR is, if available on the 522; makes it available to new customers only. If you are an existing customer you can't get a 522 from Dish.

Thanks, Dish for the screw job.

Tech

DonLandis

12-17-04, 01:58 PM

Right, Scott- actually, I was trying to point out both are needed.
I do hope we get together at CES. Maybe we can at the AVS party if there is one. Should be interesting hearing the story of MPEG4 from those at Dish who took such a strong position against it last year.

xsailor

12-17-04, 02:15 PM

I realize this a another broken promise but for me a minor one. I have never used nbr so therefore I don't miss it. It would be nice to have but again very minor. What I really want to OTA downmapping for (1) neighboring DMA's and (2) not requiring locals subscription (like the 811). Hopefully "coming soon"!

Skates

12-17-04, 02:22 PM

Well, when this whole 921 fiasco started, I cautiously went ahead with my 921 purchase with the idea that it would be the last piece of Dish equipment I would buy for quite a while.

I decided to sit back and see what happens over the next year or two. That's what I'm doing. And every day it just gets worse.

I have to admit I hadn't really looked at HD receivers from the cable companies, but I've now seen Comcast's and Time Warner's offerings, and both those boxes are impressive. Heck, even my girlfriend's DVR from Time Warner does NBR (a Scientific Atlanta box).

So I say to Dish...we all have our limit. Push us too far and there are other options...

Scott Greczkowski

12-17-04, 02:35 PM

Just got this from Marc Lumpkin of Echostar

Hi Scott, yes, we plan to implement name-based recording on new DVRs going forward and will include that software feature with the 522 DVR. We will have several new DVR models available in 2005. Stay tuned for more info on those.

To which I have replied back...

What about the older models, 921, 721 and 50x series? These were all mentioned on the Tech Chat in March as getting this feature. Does this mean those plans have been dropped?

Thanks

Scott

I will post any reply I get when I get it.

moviegoerman

12-17-04, 02:51 PM

BUT, I want to pass along something else before everyone assumes that this means that the 921 is dead. IT'S NOT DEAD!
{snip}
921 development is not stopping dead here as soon as the L211 bugs are fixed. It will be continuing for at least the next 9 months.
{snip}
We've lost NBR (for now anyways), but we haven't yet lost the 921.

Mark,

I've been listening to you since I got my 921 in July... My claims back then that the 921 will never amount to anything but a bunch of bugs has been proven more and more in the days since the L211 post. The 921 was DEAD before it even shipped. It was never completed to the specifications listed on the box or the sold vaporware from the Charlie Chats!

I speculated that the OTA guide would never be implemented properly. You said, "oh, but it will... just WAIT!". You had weeks of playing with the OTA guide implementation and said it was going to be great! Let's just say, the OTA guide implementation that was implemented was a total HACK and does not give you a true OTA guide for your local channels. I'm still not sure how you can't see these issues before it's released, but I know you've done your best to find them.

You've also made claims on all the previous threads that we will be getting named based recording SOON (since I've been listening in July). Now, we find out that NBR is just like OTA guides and the infamous Firewire port.

You keep people hanging on to the product and get people to run out and get more of them when even yourself has shown that you've not been happy with the recent events (forced LIL subscriptions and OTA guide implementation). I'm not sure why you didn't see this coming since you do get all the code to ALPHA test weeks or months before it's given to us BETA testers! That's right, Beta testers... I don't feel like we're treated as customers. Especially, not customers that have paid over $1000 to get this product.

I've waited months (from July to December) to see if your claims that they would fix the 921 were actually true. Now, they've dropped the NBR feature, created a half baked OTA guide that requires you to subscribe to locals, and it is got more bugs than L288 in some areas. The 921 is still a very buggy box and doesn't perform up to a high end HD DVR. I know because my Tivo 10-250 does perform, does have OTA guides supported, and does have NBR.

I can understand your loyalty to Dish and you've been very helpful to the forum in answering many questions. I'm sure plenty of people appreciate all your efforts (as do I). However, I don't feel like we're being told the truth all the time. Actually, it seems you're having trouble telling us what you really think lately for fear of upsetting your relationship with Dish which I can totally understand. I think at a minimum we all expect to be told the truth even if it hurts. But, at the same time, all the recent truth has brought out is that we've been lied to the entire time.

You're claim today is we've lost NBR and Firewire and who knows what will be done with the OTA guide implementation... I'm sure OTA guide is probably one of the things on the list to do since it has not been well received at all. You're biggest claim is the 921 isn't dead yet. You say it's got 9 more months of life (at least).

My GOSH MAN! 9 months left after it's been release for 1 year (still buggy as hell) is ridiculous. Basically, it is DEAD! My claims still remain the same. Customers should not expect anything but bugs from the 921 because the Eldon team is a very poor development staff directed by very poor management. Actions speak louder than words and they can't get anything to work without breaking something else. I still claim that NBR will never come to the 921. I still claim that the OTA guide won't be fixed anytime soon. It will always be a half-baked solution causing all the 921 customers grief.

All I can see for the 921 is a more releases to correct the obvious flood of bugs. I don't see any new features being implemented. Especially, if you say new features are the ones we've been promised 2-3 years ago when the 921 was first started being talked about.

So, the hope over the next 2-3 years is too look forward to a VERY dead box once Dish decides to implement MPEG4 because they don't have the money to do that right and put up enough satellites to support the HD bandwidth.

Dish is constantly nickle and dimming it's customers while at the same time providing less and less as it promised to it's high end customers. For myself, the 921 has been a disaster. I think most of the people at Dish know it's a disaster but will never admit it publicly. Then again, maybe they have... They lowered the price from $1000 to $500 because it hasn't been selling like it should and everyone has complained about spending that much for a very buggy box. At $500 it is costing Dish money to produce the box! Their actions seem to show that they don't even care about fixing the 921, or worse, they just have no clue how to fix the problem. All they want to do is dump it and move on.

Dish is so focused on increasing SD locals. How does that look for a company saying it's a leader in HD. Lots of talk with plenty of hot air. Their actions say, "We're going to build our SD locals because most of the people that subscribe don't want HD, don't want a 921, and don't have the money to be on the bleeding edge..." i.e. We're not going to focus on the minority of our customer base (i.e. 921, HD, high end consumers) because we just don't make enough money off of them. It's not cost justifiable to dump more money into a losing box. It's better to kill it and come out with a cheaper one. Let's face it, Dish did a good job marketing the 921 but a very poor job on delivering what they sold. They prevented me from leaving on the HOPES of the 921 future to come...

DirecTV on the other hand, said very little about it's HD solution, but delivered a very stable, reliable and fully functional DUAL OTA/Satellite HD DVR to market. Their actions speak volumes compared to Dish's talk.

I've been a VERY happy customer with my DirecTV Tivo (10-250). Yes, it's got a slower guide. But the damn thing works! There's plenty to be said for not watching jitter pictures, missing timers, screwed up guide information, and on and on and on... I've also notice the guide on L211 is much slower than L288. Not sure why, but it must have something to do with the OTA HACKS! The only appealing portion of the 921 was a fast guide. Lacking fast and proper OTA guide information just keeps the 921 on the track as the 2nd most screwed up receiver (compared to the 6000 and all it's bugs that customers have had to deal with).

I whole heartedly expect Dish to quietly fix the 921 and promote a replacement receiver to solve the problems and deliver what was originally promised. I don't expect anything new from the 921. I'd be happy if it just did what it was supposed to do out of the box, but I think I'm hoping for too much. I lost hope after seeing the overhyped L211 release.

At this point, I expect to use my 921 as an additional OTA tuner until I'm ready to throw it off the roof. That will probably happen in 2005 after I feel I got some of the use out of it for the money I put into it.

I feel the best leader in the market today for HD is DirecTV. I'd like to say Voom is there, but they don't have a DVR and they don't have the money to really grow into a future leader. Dish is continuing to show it's customers they aren't ready for HD and they have decided to go to the lower/mid range market because they know it's a large revenue stream that they can get for very little cost. They've already mastered the legalalites of licensing local networks in SD. Too bad they aren't doing anything for local HD channels.

I know you're probably going to disagree with most of what I'm saying. I know you have an interest in protecting Dish and the 921. I respect your position and what you do. I don't however feel that the 921 is alive and kicking. It's more like flopping and dying before it ever left the hospital. Someone needs to just pull the plug on the life support system. I disagree with most of your claims in the past and I feel I've been proven right. I'd like to think Dish will come around and make good with their high end customers, but I just don't see it happening. I don't feel they are wanting to be the leader in HD like they used to be the leader in satellite TV years ago. They were known for better quality, cheaper prices, and better support. They've lost everything they were ahead in. Their receivers are lower quality, cost more, and support is non-existent (from Dish representatives).

I would like to see my 921 just work without having to worry about it. I'd like to see the features that were sold out of the box to be implemented. I'd like not to feel I'm being lied to anymore. Just tell us the truth and let's move on. The 921 is DEAD!

mwgiii

12-17-04, 03:07 PM

moviegoerman,

Mark has been doing an outstanding job for us (the consumer). He cannot disclose everything he knows because he is under a confidentiality agreement with Dish. I am sure that there is some form of penalty if he goes too far in his remarks.

My opinion is Dish tells Mark that a problem or feature will be fixed, but then Dish changes their mind and Mark is blindsided by Dish's actions.

Remember, Mark is just the middle man and tells us what he can. I think sometimes Dish jerks him around as much or more than Dish jerks their customers around.

Mark Lamutt

12-17-04, 03:11 PM

Brian, actually I don't disagree with most of what you just said (in a very long-winded fashion...) :)

I tell you what I can, when I can, and yes, a good amount of it is what I'm told myself. I did hype L211 because for me it was, and continues to be the MOST stable release that my 921 has ever seen. I sit here dumfounded, with no idea why your 921s aren't running as well as mine is. For the life of me, I can't get mine to show the jittery video, can't get any of my OTA stations to fail, and can't get mine to spontaneously delete my recorded events. And I've been trying every night since these things started coming up. Maybe I don't have the same 921 as you all do. Maybe mine's a pre-production unit that was built better than yours were. I just don't know.

And I say that the 921 isn't dead yet because there are scheduled 7 or 8 more software releases for it. If it were completely dead, we'd see one more then that'd be that.

I was as surprised as all of you today when I got the confirmation about the NBR not coming to the 921 and the rest of the older DVRs. I'm pissed about it just like the rest of you are because that's the one thing that I've personally wanted for a very long time. But, I'm a little less emotional about it than Scott is, and certainly less emotional about it than a lot of you are. That's partly my nature, and partly because I'm doing a job here (or at least still trying to...)

Scott Greczkowski

12-17-04, 03:26 PM

7 or 8 releases in 9 months? How many software releases have they done in the last year? :)

tech_head

12-17-04, 03:28 PM

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum.
I'm a hardware engineer (ASIC) and have done software in the past.

It's amazing to me that a company that has a box based on Linux can't get it right. The only reason that I have decided not to cancel my 921 install is because, if nothing else I want the capacity. On the other hand it is reprehensible that a company will sell a box and will reserve features for new subscribers while blowing off the existing customer base.

Like cell phones, it's not cheap to acquire a new customer. The cost of getting a new customer can be figured out by what a company charges for early temination. I suspect that Dish has a lot of customers like me that have no further obligation to stay a customer.
So my guess, is, like the cable companies, until they get a mass exodus from loyal customers they won't get a clue.

With that being said, I have looked at the options and will continue to do so. I plan to keep Dish for now, but I dumped cable out of my house two years ago because I didn't like being bent over.

Kent

dtanderson

12-17-04, 03:35 PM

DirecTV is starting look better everyday :) I was happy with Dish but with each passing day, I am leaning more toward switching. The fee per PVR instead of account, no name based recording, etc...

Scott Greczkowski

12-17-04, 03:52 PM

I just got this back from Marc Lumpkin

The focus is on the new models going forward.

My question to him was...

What about the older models, 921, 721 and 50x series? These were all mentioned on the Tech Chat in March as getting this feature. Does this mean those plans have been dropped?

Thanks

Scott

TowJumper

12-17-04, 03:55 PM

Mark:

You are doing an excellent job. I have likewise seen very little problems with my 4 month old 921 since 2.11. The last release was a godsend for me in that my wife can see locals OTA in the guide and get the guide data (we have locals via sat) remaped for her easy access. Prior to 2.11 she never watched her shows in HD OTA, now she does regularly.

HOWEVER, NBR not coming to my 921 and 721 - the top-of-the-line that I can BUY, is simply a horrible business decision. Dish needs to be careful here because as more and more local DMAs broadcast the HD (or even just digital) OTA signals at full power, we do not need Dish locals and alternatives like Voom and DTV become much more appealing.

It used to be the case that since analog OTA sucked so badly, Dish needed to have the locals for market penetration, now, since Digital TV OTA looks MUCH BETTER (!) than Dish locals via satellite, and are easier to receive in perfect quality, than the old analog, consumers will be happy to migrate from Dish and to its competitors because Sat locals will not mean squat. Since locals have been Charlie's one horse show - he will be in trouble. Thats why Charlie talks about HD Locals, but the numbers can not add up for him to deliver it - no freakling way, and why bother if HD OTA is available by then. He is going to need to learn a new act.

For example, I have two stations in my tiny DMA that deliver Digital OTA (often HD) MUCH better than my Dish Locals. Two others do digital but at limited power. I imagine within a year, we will have no use for Sat Locals. And this is in a 100+ DMA i.e. small city. We will be perfectly free to go with Direct or Voom (if they last that long) and tell Charlie to go jump - my run with Dish from '96 will have run out.

Going to be interesting to see this one playout, I doubt I will be able to watch it on my 921 though. :mad:

Altaman

12-17-04, 04:17 PM

What I don't understand here is that consumers in the U.S. are allowing this to happen to them. Things like the firewire not being implemented, OTA not working as advertised, NBR that was promoted but now apparently not coming.

The U.S.A is known as the lawsuit capital of the world, why are you people allowing it to happen? Get a class-action lawsuit going to get your money back on undelivered functionality! This is one area where it seems the consumers of E* have an excellent case, why not fight them? It does not matter that you paid $1000 or $100, they advertise a product and they have a responsibility to provide it.

That being said, at least you american's have a HD-PVR...as a Bell Expressvu customer, I can't get one for anything and it looks like we won't for some time to come. If E* is going to be promoting new HD recievers at CES, you can bet that people are not going to buy a lame duck 942 either in the U.S. nor in Canada.

Alt

mwgiii

12-17-04, 05:05 PM

The only people who make money in a class-action lawsuit are the lawyers. That is why they always file them.

If Dish settled for $25 million, the lawyers would get $8 to $12 million and 5 million Dish customers would split the rest. 5 PPV coupons.

Cyclone

12-17-04, 05:47 PM

I think that the bigger picture here is that Dish is going to move forward with plans to replace all of the existing STBs Further development of these receivers is a expense that their plans are at odds with.

I for one do not feel screwed. I never expected a good NBR system for the 921/721. I did think that it was going to happen for the 501/508/510 just because there are so many of them. But if Dish is going to a "lease" business model for STBs, and they want to migrate their entire customer base to MPEG-4 hardware (both SD & HD), then they are going to start the move to cut the expenses to existing hardware to a "maintence" plan. Just bug fixes and finishing up loose ends.

I know some may claim NBR to be a Dish Advertised feature, but it realy wasn't. It was never listed in ads or press releases. Just a mention on a tech forum show, which we all know has about as much weight as 50 HD superdish channels.

I just hope that the 921 does finally get its OpenTV support.

ClaudeR

12-17-04, 05:49 PM

sgt940

12-17-04, 05:53 PM

Ok, I have not posted my bugs as I thought 211 was the answer to all problems, under 189 my unit was very stable, under 211 the manual stop does not work, the caller id stops working until a reboot and last night I had a call while watching a HD OTA program and after 20 minutes tried to back up to watch from the beginning, when I backed up to the start and than hit play it would go back to the beginning of the hard drive 1.5 hours early, nothing could get you back to a specific spot in the que. the delay time kept showing 1,549 minutes delayed. SO I NOW HAVE A UNSTABLE UNIT AGAIN. Posting the problems is not worth the effort. MARK I HAVE ONE QUESTION IS DISH HOME ALSO NO LONGER AN OPTION? Based on this I will take action to recover my money and it won't be via words in this form. Charter cable is releasing thier HD DVR this month, enough said.

bluegreg

12-17-04, 06:59 PM

What is old about the 921?

I agree with all the above comments. I still enjoy dish. Won't get tivo.
I will bug the hell out of dish till I get satisfaction.
either free locals or discounts for service or free upgrade equipment.
They owe it to me an others.

greg

boylehome

12-17-04, 07:00 PM

I want my NBR. Having said that, I do realize that this would mean that there would be a least one year of heartache due to bugs with the software. Hopefully there is a rosy future.

jsanders

12-17-04, 07:08 PM

Jacob S

12-17-04, 08:56 PM

Dish Network is probably doing one of the following:

Not putting NBR on any previous DVR's because....

(a) They want to get consumers to take the lease deal when signing up for service or upgrade to a DVR that has NBR which requires consumers to lease it.

(b) They are waiting for MPEG-4 DVR's to come out before coming out NBR on them in which all of these may be leased anyways.

(c) Dish Network is not able to do so but if that is the case then why would they have announced it as possible earlier?

(d) They are afraid that there will be issues with these particular receivers if they get the feature or they just dont care if they get added or not.

fox200

12-17-04, 09:06 PM

Ron Barry

12-17-04, 09:23 PM

Name based recording isn't all that hard to get working in a simple fashion. I could do it inside of a month I am sure, and that is being very generous. The local OTA guide remap they did could be done inside of an afternoon for basic functionality. I don't know why it took them a year to get around to it. None of this stuff is that difficult, it doesn't require a large investment in coding time either. Hey, their beta testing is free too, right?? What it boils down to is maybe $5k after taxes to pay the salary of a programmer for a month to do it. It just shows you how little they are willing to invest in their customer base.

Estimate for Shoe horning NBR into an existing code base of an embedded system taking 1 month?? That is a SWAG if I ever saw one. Hmmm Well you have your right to your opinion, however I personally feel it is way off. I personally would never give out an estimate without knowing the architecture, development environment, and existing code base, but that is me. ;)

Cyclone

12-17-04, 09:24 PM

I will say one thing.

This $5/mo VOD fee is feeling pretty lame now.

I kinda understood it before, thinking that NBR was around the corner and that my 510/921 would be close to other PVR services. I'm now feeling kinda used.

jsanders

12-17-04, 09:25 PM

I've been trying every night since these things started coming up. Maybe I don't have the same 921 as you all do. Maybe mine's a pre-production unit that was built better than yours were. I just don't know.

I'm glad your 921 is working as advertized fox200! If you want to try something, I've got an experiment for you which could lead to lots of problems if you try it. Go through each OTA channel you receive, and try to pause and skip back and forth. Hopefully you will find one that won't do it. If you do, try to do a manual recording on it. Let it record for a few minutes and do a "Manual stop" on it! :-) Now, try and play back what you just recorded. I would be greatly interested to know if you have problems after that point in time. Normally I would say, "Don't try that at home folks!", but if you feel daring let us know.

fox200

12-17-04, 09:44 PM

I'm glad your 921 is working as advertized fox200! If you want to try something, I've got an experiment for you which could lead to lots of problems if you try it. Go through each OTA channel you receive, and try to pause and skip back and forth. Hopefully you will find one that won't do it. If you do, try to do a manual recording on it. Let it record for a few minutes and do a "Manual stop" on it! :-) Now, try and play back what you just recorded. I would be greatly interested to know if you have problems after that point in time. Normally I would say, "Don't try that at home folks!", but if you feel daring let us know.

jsanders,

I'm about 35 miles north of you and I know about the KRON 4-01 problem, but
that is a problem with the broadcast signal not the 921. However, 4-02
HDNet 2002 broadcasts are very nice and have perfect DVR function.

fox

jsanders

12-17-04, 10:45 PM

Estimate for Shoe horning NBR into an existing code base of an embedded system taking 1 month?? That is a SWAG if I ever saw one. Hmmm Well you have your right to your opinion, however I personally feel it is way off. I personally would never give out an estimate without knowing the architecture, development environment, and existing code base, but that is me. ;)

Eh? Maybe you can enlighten me with what you mean with "SWAG", not sure what you mean by it. The dictionary defines it as:

n 1: valuable goods 2: goods or money obtained illegally [syn: loot, booty, pillage, plunder, prize, dirty money] 3: a bundle containing the personal belongings of a swagman v 1: droop, sink, or settle from or as if from pressure or loss of tautness [syn: sag, droop, flag] 2: walk as if unable to control one's movements; "The drunken man staggered into the room" [syn: stagger, reel, keel, lurch, careen] 3: sway heavily or unsteadily

Anyway, we do know a bit about this environment. It is not an embedded controller. It is a PC running a little less than 1GHz with an NVidia graphics chip set, PCI cards, some RAM, a 250GB HD, USB, etc.. It is running a variant of linux on an x86 architecture. The toolset is probably gcc, probably debugging with gdb - standard unix/linux tools. If they are lucky, they have something like insight or DDD running ontop of gdb, but I doubt it. The hard part with their environment is the GUI stuff. They don't have something like GNU, KDE, or QT with interface design tools to do the work for them, so that is a bit more tedious. Even if it was an embedded controller, it isn't hard to do a cross compiler with binutils, newlib and stdlib. With those tools, you even get floating point math if you want it. It isn't trivial to roll your own like that, but it isn't that hard either.

That gives a basic framework for the environment. As far as implementing the code to do name based recording, there are two ways to do it. The first, which is very simple is to have the user browse through the guide (using existing code), and select a program as normal. There are several choices when the user now selects the program, something like, "Tune to this event", "Record this event once", "Record this event M-F", "Record this event Daily", "Record this event Weekly". Add a radio button, "Record this event when it is aired". Now, maintain a linked list of all of the selections with this type, "Record the event when it is aired". In this linked list, have a structure with a couple of elements, the program name, and/or the station. You get this information from the existing program guide that the user selected. A very basic version of this would just be to do something like this:

void handleProgramChangeEvent(guideStruc *progInfo) {
NBRlinkPtr = linkHead;
do {
if (strncmp(progInfo->progName, NBRlinkPtr->progName, kMaxNameLength) == kMatch) {
RecordProgram(NBRlinkPtr->progName, progInfo->channelNo, progInfo->startTime, progInfo->endTime);
break;
}
NBRlinkPtr = NBRlinkPtr->nextLink;
} while (NBRlinkPtr != NULL)
}

This program would have to be called every time a program is about to change. Again, not too hard to do. When you pop up the banner guide, you will notice that it tells you how much time you have left, right? That banner guide also tells you the next show, right? That is all the information you need to call this function. Do something like this:

if (timeLeftInCurProgram == k3Minutes)
handleProgramChangeEvent(nextProgram);

Not a big deal is it? Of course, there are edge cases it might not handle well, although it would do "supersized" episodes just fine.

Ideally, you want to take the guide from the satellite and create a linked list sorted by time slot and channel with relational links to program info. You also want to create a new linked list that sorts the guide alphabetically by program name with links to call letter (channel #) and time slot. That will allow you to create timers in advance and allow the user to search by program name in a very fast manner. You don't need anything fancy. You can create your own heap if you want to maintain your own memory in the event it isn't provided in your 'crude' environement. That isn't hard. It isn't hard to build linked lists to do this, and you have the unix file system. You can dump it to the hard drive using fopen(), fwrite(), fclose, etc.. This isn't that processor intensive, so you could probably even get away with an in-efficient bubble sort when building your linked lists. It is rather environment independent stuff.

So, yes, I say I could get something like a basic NBR working inside of a month. Feel free to explain why you think it would take longer.

I apologize for the code looking ugly, this message board software takes out white space.

jsanders

12-17-04, 10:47 PM

I'm about 35 miles north of you and I know about the KRON 4-01 problem, but
that is a problem with the broadcast signal not the 921. However, 4-02
HDNet 2002 broadcasts are very nice and have perfect DVR function.

Ah ha! So, are you gonna try it? :D Yea, it is a problem with the station, and I tried recording and the playback of a 4.1 recording has left me with lots and lots of problems ever since.

FaxMan

12-17-04, 11:34 PM

....

I sit here dumfounded, with no idea why your 921s aren't running as well as mine is. For the life of me, I can't get mine to show the jittery video, can't get any of my OTA stations to fail, and can't get mine to spontaneously delete my recorded events. And I've been trying every night since these things started coming up. Maybe I don't have the same 921 as you all do. Maybe mine's a pre-production unit that was built better than yours were. I just don't know....

Is it possible (programmers feel free to chime in) that the software updates don't actually overwrite every piece of code and every file?

If so, is it possible that an earlier beta had some good code that replaced some 188 code during its load and wasn't replaced with the final 211 load?

I.E. you got some good interim code, or a driver, or a dll (or unix equivalent) that was skipped in the final release?

Maybe all of the beta boxes are doing great and that's why everybody was so hyped about it. Maybe a file by file or line by line comparison needs to be made between a box like your and a box like jsanders...

Just a thought...

chuckbernard

12-18-04, 12:49 AM

All I can say is that this 921 is the biggest waste of a money and effort in my lifetime. What a waste of $1000. I don't care how much you earn, a $1000 is still a lot of money.

I have spent more than 20 years developing software in the telecom and EDA industry. I know enough to recognize when a product is being developed by a company that has no software development process, no test plan, and no quality control.

If there ever was a poster child of a dysfunctional development team the 921 is it!

That being said, it has become so comical in nature that I can't even be angry. I'm just not sure what will make me feel better; smashing it with a hammer or throwing it in a closet until it becomes valuable to hackers on ebay in a few years.

I thought that I could be happy with this thing until I visited my friend and saw what a TIVO is capable of. I spent the money because I believed what they were telling us. Now that these features will never come it's time to spend my $100+ per month on another service. After the new year or after the Superbowl I'm gone.

SimpleSimon

12-18-04, 02:42 AM

... SO I NOW HAVE A UNSTABLE UNIT AGAIN. Posting the problems is not worth the effort. ...My sentiments exactly.

Their fixes don't.

Their features aren't.

It's all just a $#!tload of software design flaws.

Ignoring what the executives and managers have done wrong, which is everything, the software design of the 921 is total crap, and the more I find out about it, the more convinced I am of this fact.

I'm a little like Chuck B. - been around the block for a while. I was doing software design and programming for a Siemens telephone exchange in the mid '70s. We were beta testers of the Intel 8086. We designed our own high-level programming language (CHILL), and of course the compiler for it.

When we had a bug, we didn't know if it was the code, the language spec, the compiler, or the frelling CPU!!! I saw all of the above.

Average time to a given bug fix was 3 man-days. THREE MAN-DAYS. And this was for telephone software. Much more complex than satellite TV (think about the input events and necessary outputs of a 1000 line unit). Plus we were required to not only have 99.5% reliability, but to have graceful failover.

State of the software arts 30 years ago was nothing like now - and yet these turkeys can't even get a simple list display to work right. Worthless.

Curmudgeon

12-18-04, 08:19 AM

[QUOTE=jsanders]Eh? Maybe you can enlighten me with what you mean with "SWAG", not sure what you mean by it.

SWAG = Scientific Wild Ass Guess.

You've obviously led a very sheltered life. :lol:

Big D

12-18-04, 10:00 AM

[QUOTE=jsanders]Eh? Maybe you can enlighten me with what you mean with "SWAG", not sure what you mean by it.

SWAG = Scientific Wild Ass Guess.

or stupid wild ass guess

TonyB

12-18-04, 10:15 AM

or stupid wild ass guess

I belive that it originally was "Scientific Wild Ass Guess".

ClaudeR

12-18-04, 10:33 AM

How about a modchip that can be installed with its own startup console and underground software from jsanders?

Maybe E* can make the software public domain, taking coding suggestions from E* testers. It has worked well for lunix.

They probably do not have a dedicated programmer team per box type, maybe they just work on one model at a time - hence the long leadtimes between updates.

AVJohnnie

12-18-04, 10:37 AM

I just got this back from Marc Lumpkin

Quote:
The focus is on the new models going forward.

Why in hell should we believe that any new models will be any better than what we are being forced to contend with now? Come on now guys -- For me at least, this is a no brainer decision... ITS TIME TO MOVE ON!

I think the only true satisfaction these 921s will provide us is when they are used as evidence at the class-action proceedings.

WildBill

12-18-04, 11:55 AM

Perhaps dropping NBR is a Dish ploy to divert attention away from their local- subscription-to-get-guide extortion scam. Of course, now they need a new ploy to divert attention away from dropping NBR. How about an increase in the HD package rate based on new offerings you won't be able to see with your 921? That should do it! :D

Cyclone

12-18-04, 12:01 PM

I was thinking a $5/mo Remote Control Rental fee, and an additional $5/mo DVR Remote control fee.

dfergie

12-18-04, 02:20 PM

I was thinking a $5/mo Remote Control Rental fee, and an additional $5/mo DVR Remote control fee. Dont forget the 5$ fee for using the little antenna on the back...

sgt940

12-18-04, 02:29 PM

I tell you what I can, when I can, and yes, a good amount of it is what I'm told myself. I did hype L211 because for me it was, and continues to be the MOST stable release that my 921 has ever seen. I sit here dumfounded, with no idea why your 921s aren't running as well as mine is. For the life of me, I can't get mine to show the jittery video, can't get any of my OTA stations to fail, and can't get mine to spontaneously delete my recorded events. And I've been trying every night since these things started coming up. Maybe I don't have the same 921 as you all do. Maybe mine's a pre-production unit that was built better than yours were. I just don't know.

Mark,

I have to agree with you, my 921 is stable with L211. Everything I try to do
with it works fine. I saw a thread that talked about the manual stop button
not working with L211. If you push manual record, you have to select "manual user stop" under options first and the recording stops everytime when you want to. But you know this.
Seems some people here would rather bash instead of learning how to use the new software first. And I don't care about NBR.
First off I don't dish bash, I have been a customer of Dish since the very first year they were in service. L189 was perfectly stable in everyway on my unit, 211 is not for what ever reason, manual stop does not work whether you use manual record to start a recording a timer on OTA or a Timer on SD, to stop a recording you must go into the PVR screen. Caller id which has been perfect for me since the first upgrade in February now stops intermittently and requires a reboot. Skip forward and backward keys that I never had any issues with including OTA on all channells is now eratic and can take you any where in the buffer with one push. Guess I was the lucky dog under 189 and now paying the price under 211. I wish i had the option to revert all the way back to the factory load and than reload 211 from scratch, I have a feeling this might fix everything.

moviegoerman

12-18-04, 02:42 PM

I wish i had the option to revert all the way back to the factory load and than reload 211 from scratch, I have a feeling this might fix everything.

I'm not sure if the 921 works the same way, but I think the 721 will go back to factory settings if you did the following steps.

1. Shutdown the receiver and remove the power cord from the wall outlet.
2, HOLD/PUSH the power ON button the front of the receiver.
3. Plug in the real power cable into the wall outlet at the same time as holding/pushing the ON button.
4. Wait for the next software to update. Maybe, try a manual check for updates.
5. Make sure you get a good HARD reboot (remove power for at least 10 seconds) after the new software comes down.

I'm not sure if that will work, but if you want to risk losing your programs and settings, then you can try it. Good luck...

Rotryrkt

12-18-04, 06:44 PM

I tried this method on my 921, Brian, no go! All mine did was a usual hard reboot and back to regular programming. I too wish there was a way to dump the software and force a reload of only the newest version. Surely someone has figured this one out on the 921.

srrobinson2

12-18-04, 07:09 PM

Eh? Maybe you can enlighten me with what you mean with "SWAG", not sure what you mean by it.

Serious [or significant or stupid or scientific, etc.] Wild A$$ Guess

I'm with WeeJava and would want to know more about their enviornment and architecture before making a broad sweeping generalization (BSG :) ) about how long it would take.

I do, however, agree that implementing NBR seems like a reasonable task. I also agree that taking a year to fix some of the problems we've all faced is unacceptable. I've tried to theorize potential programming scenarios that would have caused delays like this, and I continue to come up blank.

I've been in the IT business for more than 15 years and spent my first 10 programming and my last 5 or so managing programmers, so I do know a bit about this topic.

Here's a suggestion: move the 921 source code to an open source base and let us work on it.

moviegoerman

12-18-04, 07:36 PM

Here's a suggestion: move the 921 source code to an open source base and let us work on it.

You know that will never happen... If it did, then we would implement Firewire, NBR, OTA Guides, Home networking, large drive arrays, web scheduling, etc. We would make it a real media center. Better yet, why don't they just sell the tuner cards and we can use MythTV...

http://www.mythtv.org/

Obvious reasons why not:

1. Content providers would threaten to stop providing Dish with content.
2. Piracy of content (see 1)
3. Easier to break Dish's encryption and no need to pay for a subscription.
4. They'd rather sell you a high priced non-functional box!
5. You have no choice as a consumer.

Pirates make it impossible for us consumers to have the best devices for our own personal use. Then again, RIAA and MPAA doesn't help it either. They could allow it with the proper protections in place. It's all about the $$$.

jsanders

12-18-04, 08:42 PM

I'm with WeeJava and would want to know more about their enviornment and architecture before making a broad sweeping generalization (BSG :) ) about how long it would take.

I've been in the IT business for more than 15 years and spent my first 10 programming and my last 5 or so managing programmers, so I do know a bit about this topic.

Here's a suggestion: move the 921 source code to an open source base and let us work on it.

I made a case for why I thought I could do a basic implementation of name based recording in a month of work (no season ticket). I described what the environment is, based on what we have learned over the last year. I explained the concept of how to do it, and where to patch it in. I wrote a small subroutine to show how the concept works. I also explained that this code is very much environment independent. Existing code interfaces to the hardware, NBR code has no need to do that.

Programming timers requires three things, a channel to tune to, a start time, and a stop time. In a basic sense, all name based recording does is find occurances of a program name, and set up a timer to record a specific channel at a specific window of time, the timer code already exists and guide data already exists, all that is needed is a translator. There are a couple of ways to do it. You can either poll through the programming guide and set up timers on the fly, or you can sort the guide database by name and extract the information and set up timers, or you can crawl through the guide data as it gets recorded and set up timers based on matches found. What is so hard about that?? I even did an example with a linked list, that would fulfill SimpleSimon's problem with a limited number of timers. BTW, that suggests they used an array instead of a linked list.

So, what *specifically* then, do you want to know about the environment and architecture, and how do you expect these things effect the code you write? I was specific about why I thought it was possible, you need to at least be specific on why you think I made a Broad, Sweeping Generalisation.

What type of programming did you do in the IT business btw?

ocnier

12-19-04, 07:53 AM

I'm curious now, with the proverbial guantlet of frustration thrown officially down with everything but the 522 (which is lease), why doesn't dish release a press junket or something stating "hey, we're not doing this but here's what we're gonna do.... like give you the option of going to 942 lease or equivalency reciever for free for trade in so we don't have to support it (921, etc..)anymore". I mean that's not a perfect solution, but it pushes their lease business model further and allows them to maintain some semblance of loyalty base from subs. I think that would be a win-win situation for both sides. I just don't get e*'s logic. :shrug:

BuckeyeChris

12-19-04, 08:29 AM

I'm curious now, with the proverbial guanlet frustration thrown officially down with everything but the 522 (which is lease), why doesn't dish release a press junket or something stating "hey, we're not this but here's what we're gonna do....

I couldn't agree with you more! If Dish were to come out with a press release and/or Web site announcement on the new NBR/EBR and Season Pass features and what their proposed schedule is for roll-out (or no roll-out) for other receivers, they would quell a lot of the confusion and frustration from customers.

I am dismayed that such an important upgrade for the 522 has not even merited one mention on their Web site. Instead, their customers are left to rely on back channel communications through third party Internet discussion sites which may or may not be true. My employer would fire anyone who did such a thing; that's not the way you communicate effectively to your customers. Did their marketing department take the entire month of December off for the holidays? :rolleyes:

lenny

12-19-04, 12:11 PM

I just mailed the following message to ceo@echostar. Let's see if I get a response. I mentioned that I heard EBR was going to be on the 921 on a Charlie Chat but reading some posts it may have been a Tech Chat. The Chat's become a blur sometimes.

To: ceo@echostar.com
Subject: EBR for receivers other than the 522.

I've been a long time customer because Dish Network has always been good to it's customers, had great customer service, and had great programming.

I've always had your top of the line receivers from the 5000 series way back when then added your 6000 receiver then added your Dishplayer 7200 then added your 500 series DVR's.

I then added the 921 back in October for $1,000. Then you dropped your price by almost 50% less than a month later and I was irritated since I couldn't return my unit or get the difference back. I've been working with customer support to try and get my caller id working correctly but I'm not getting anywhere. I've been working with other people to try and correct a video jitter problem that L211 introduced into my receiver.

Now I find out that you are not even going to add Event Based Recording to your current top of the line receiver. This was promised in Charlie Chats and thru your other advertising vehicles. This is one of the reasons I purchased the 921. So now I paid $500 more than most people for the receiver and I
won't even get EBR? If I can't believe the CEO of a company when he speaks then that is a terrible state of affairs.

Why are you mistreating your customer base like this? As you can tell by my account (my phone number) I've been with your company a very long time. I've also had AEP along with the locals, superstations, and other programming. I have many rooms so I also have your maximum of 6 receivers so I'm spending over $125/month for service.

I truely hope you reverse your decision dealing with not implementing EBR on the 921. I can't believe that I just spent $1,000 on a receiver that is now no where near the capability of a Tivo and never will be.

With the direction you're taking I'm now researching moving to
DirecTV. I now feel I am being mistreated and mislead by your company. This is to my amazement because I've been a long time high end customer. What is also depressing is I don't see any reason why you're mistreating your current customer base like this. Especially your high end customer base since they typically spend many dollars per month for your services such as myself.

I have alot invested with Dish Network but when I move to DirecTV the equipment will be free or close to it and I'll most likely be paying less per month and it will be less aggravation. Ebay bidders can have all my Dish Network equipment after that point.

I'm truely saddened that a great company like yours has become like this.

Sigh,
Lenny
My phone number again.

John Walsh

12-19-04, 01:57 PM

I have been patient as hell with the 921. On my 4th one. My locals are OTA and I can't sub to my locals with dish so I have no mapping. That I am not happy with at all but I didn't get too upset over. Now no NBR....... I am really F$%#ing pissed off. Eight years with dish and this is how I (we) get treated. I am trying to watch the Jets game right now on my local OTA and it keeps dropping our - signal is 108 or so but I lose the picture. So I flip over to the SD channel to watch it and my wife is giving me **** about spending $1000 on a unit and I can't even watch HD on it.

I hate lawsuits but I don't see any way that dish will dodge a lawsuit on this unit.

I guess its time to start looking into Direct for a sub to all channels and packages for Six TV's. I don't care how much I spend- I just want the stuff to work properly

moviegoerman

12-19-04, 02:55 PM

It's nice to see more loyal subscribers finally realizing what Dish has been doing...

I'm sure you'll be happy with your DirecTV Tivo 10-250, but you'll have to spend another $1,000+ to get into HD again. I made this move only 2 days after purchasing my 921. It cost me a bunch to do it, but I know I made the right choice. I can't imagine what this fall season would be like with a single HD tuner, no guide, and missed programs with all the flury of bugs.

I was a loyal customer for years, but the 921 was my last straw. Maybe the lawsuits could cover the switch costs too... We wouldn't have to pay for all the disconnect/connect fees and new hardware if it wasn't for the 921 making it impossible to get HD content delivered reliably.

At the minimum we should be able to recover the costs that Dish has directly made on us. i.e forcing us to pay for content we don't need in order to use the 921 and boxes that just don't work. There might be a little something extra for some of us that shelled out the $1000 and then watch the price cut in half without a method to return them. Other good news on the Tivo... Go buy is Tivo, if you don't like it, You can RETURN IT!

You will have to let us know how you like your Tivos... I know mine has been great except for the slow guide, but with NBR (YOU DON'T NEED A GUIDE THAT OFTEN!). At least I get all my OTA locals (with a guide!), NBR, never missed a show yet, and just the most pleasant experience of not having to hand hold a piece of crap to see what bugs the next release will bring.

I will say the only choice we have as consumers is not to pay... I've removed all of my programming except for LIL and one channel. The 921 for me has just been an additional backup tuner for my lean mean quad tuner machine (i.e. 10-250) when you need to record 3 HD shows OTA (it does happen).

If anyone does know of a good attorney, then I think we could pursue them in court. We would need the numbers (not sure how many). The first ones to file are usually the first ones to get their money back. I know one guy that works on consumer "credit" class action lawsuits (on consumer's behalf), but I don't know if he would be willing to take the case.

It might be nice get get another forum on here where people can gather to recover their 921 Dish losses. I'm sure Mark would appreciate not having to listen to us... Unless Mark wants to be the owner and manage that forum too... We know he's a glutten for punishment. :) I think he's so tired of us complaining, but it's the only forum we can voice our experiences where hopefully someone at Dish will read.

If there's enough interest, then maybe Chris will open up a forum just for us 921 converts... It doesn't mean you get rid of us though Mark... :) We still own the boxes until Dish buys them back... :(

ClaudeR

12-19-04, 03:09 PM

I've also been getting dropouts OTA with over 100 signal, doesn't come back until I go to a Dish channel, then back.

John Walsh

12-19-04, 04:42 PM

lenny

12-19-04, 05:13 PM

ocnier

12-19-04, 05:38 PM

I just got off the phone with someone from the ATS and TPS groups. She said that there has NOT been a final decision on EBR on the 921. She mentioned that since the 921 and 522 are on the same platform it would be possible to have EBR on those receivers. Since the 5xx series receivers are on a different platform EBR will probably not happen on those receivers.

So now I'll wait a short while for a final word from E* on this issue before I look into moving to D*. But, at least there is some hope for us 921 users.

Hopefully Mark and Scott got bad info and I'm sure they hope they did too. But, maybe their info was good, but E* is rethinking their decision, I could only hope.

Lenny

Sorry Lenny, but i think you got bad info, I wish my gut told me otherwise but the ship has sailed (even with the apparent leaks in the hull). !pu****!

richardlazar

12-19-04, 05:42 PM

This is the most important feature that presently gives TIVO and Direct TIVO an edge over Dish. When I tell users of TIVO I can't create a Seasons Pass, they LAUGH at me, and tell me they live by that feature.

PLEASE implement this for my brand new 921. I don't want to have to purchase another DVR just to get this working.

BTW, the latest sofware upgrade IS GREAT and the new features seem to work well for me. My hats off to the development team - I wish I could send them some donuts for their efforts!

Richard
Los Angeles

lenny

12-19-04, 05:57 PM

Sorry Lenny, but i think you got bad info, I wish my gut told me otherwise but the ship has sailed (even with the apparent leaks in the hull). !pu****!
Trust me, I know where you're coming from, I guess time will tell, but I'm an optimist, so I'll hang onto this thread of hope for a *short* while. Let's see if I/we get an *official* response from E* on this issue.

Hope......sometimes good.....sometimes bad,
Lenny

Chris Blount

12-19-04, 06:27 PM

If any lawyers are reading this thread, I have a copy of every Charlie Chat and Technical Chat since last May. Contact me if it will help. :)

boylehome

12-19-04, 06:30 PM

If any lawyers are reading this thread, I have a copy of every Charlie Chat and Technical Chat since last May. Contact me if it will help. :)
And this forum is chuck full of evidence.

Scott Greczkowski

12-19-04, 06:38 PM

I just got off the phone with someone from the ATS and TPS groups. She said that there has NOT been a final decision on EBR on the 921. She mentioned that since the 921 and 522 are on the same platform it would be possible to have EBR on those receivers. Since the 5xx series receivers are on a different platform EBR will probably not happen on those receivers.
They are not on the same platform. Boy I wish that were the case, I would love for the 921 to have the 522 user interface. :)

So now I'll wait a short while for a final word from E* on this issue before I look into moving to D*. But, at least there is some hope for us 921 users.

Hopefully Mark and Scott got bad info and I'm sure they hope they did too. But, maybe their info was good, but E* is rethinking their decision, I could only hope.
We can only hope and wish but im affraid that we would have more luck believing in a bunny that goes around and gives all kids candy on Easter. :)

I don't believe we have received bad info, my info comes from Management, and was backed up by Marc Lumpkin who is the official Echostar spokesman.

Lenny[/QUOTE]

Scott Greczkowski

12-19-04, 06:39 PM

Trust me, I know where you're coming from, I guess time will tell, but I'm an optimist, so I'll hang onto this thread of hope for a *short* while. Let's see if I/we get an *official* response from E* on this issue.

Hope......sometimes good.....sometimes bad,
LennyWe *DID* get an official response from Dish Network, please search for the emails from Marc Lumpkin here in this thread.

Chris Blount

12-19-04, 06:40 PM

And this forum is chuck full of evidence.Yep, remember the May Charlie Chat?

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=27294

Look at the first question from David.

jsanders

12-19-04, 06:42 PM

If any lawyers are reading this thread, I have a copy of every Charlie Chat and Technical Chat since last May. Contact me if it will help. :)

Hmmm. I wonder what would have happened if there were some lawyers that bought and used the 921 and were on this board..... :kickbutt: :ewww:

lenny

12-19-04, 07:19 PM

We *DID* get an official response from Dish Network, please search for the emails from Marc Lumpkin here in this thread.
Ah, this is my ignorance since I didn't know Marc Lumpkin is an official E* spokesman I must've missed that. Sorry about that. Well I guess my thread of hope was just snipped. :(

Also, you're knowledge is much more extensive than mine. You stated in a previous post that the 522 and 921 are not using the same OS/platform (which I assume was linux). I can't believe the ATS/APS person said they were if they're not. Geesshhhh that's irritating. That person said she does read these threads and I told her I'm *lenny* so let's see if I get any response from her on this. Scott, you know what platform/OS each receiver is so I can present this information when/if I'm contacted again.

Sigh.... OK, maybe the next step are lawyers. I was looking back at the other posts you made in this thread. It seems you stated that we all let mhopkins@mediabiz.com know how disgusted we are. Do you still feel that's the case? If so, I'll forward my letter I sent to Charlie (which I posted here) onto him.

Thanks Scott for setting me straight,
Lenny

Scott Greczkowski

12-19-04, 07:35 PM

You can email Charlie, but chances are very good you will never get a reply.

I invite all unhappy to email SkyReport, its time for the public to know whats going on. :)

BuckeyeChris

12-19-04, 07:54 PM

We *DID* get an official response from Dish Network, please search for the emails from Marc Lumpkin here in this thread.

Scott,

Why does E give its official response through back channels on the Internet? No offense to you and your Web site, which do a great job in disseminating information, but professionals give out official press releases through either their corporate Web site or their marketing department. I should know, I work in the communications department of a very large corporation.

Tool408

12-19-04, 08:21 PM

Mark thank you for looking into this.

Just for the record here is a FULL copy of the email I was sent by Dish Network. (Mark you can edit the headers if you wish, I just want to show this is a real email) :)

[/font][/size][/font]

Scott could never be so wrong with your invalid source(s).

I know who he is talkin about and I can reassure. they're restricted by our IT group.

FYI Scott was removed from the Beta program as a burden and a risk to the beta test program.

Scott has no "reliable sources other than our ‘known hacks’.” within the company.

Nice try Scott. You'll always be fooled and 2 steps behind!

HA!

boylehome

12-19-04, 08:29 PM

Scott,

Why does E give its official response through back channels on the Internet? No offense to you and your Web site, which do a great job in disseminating information, but professionals give out official press releases through either their corporate Web site or their marketing department. I should know, I work in the communications department of a very large corporation.
I've pondered this question myself. I see them as a large city with a small town mind set.

lenny

12-19-04, 08:36 PM

boylehome

12-19-04, 09:03 PM

Gee, I just wish E would come out with an official statement thru an official outlet. If Dish people are really listening can you please get your mgmt to do this soon.

Lenny :confused:
Could it be a result of law interpreters huddling in reverent awe not knowing the best/right answers?

SimpleSimon

12-19-04, 09:36 PM

Scott could never be so wrong with your invalid source(s).

I know who he is talkin about and I can reassure. they're restricted by our IT group.

FYI Scott was removed from the Beta program as a burden and a risk to the beta test program.

Scott has no "reliable sources other than our ‘known hacks’.” within the company.

Nice try Scott. You'll always be fooled and 2 steps behind!

HA!Yeah, maybe Scott isn't a beta tester - because he's willing to tell it like it is. And maybe HE doesn't have the inside sources, but others around here DO.

My personal take on this is E* is trying to save the money and not do it, but if they get nailed over it (which it seems they are), then they'll recant.

I'm a born and bred capitalist, but if this is true, it's nothing but PURE GREED, without a care about anyone - which of course seems to be how E* treats customers and retailers, so I won't be surprised if it turns out to be true.

Finally - remember that a class-action lawsuit does NOT have to be limited to a single issue. Throw DishWire, OpenTV, Internet Access, and everything else into the mix, too.

jsanders

12-19-04, 10:38 PM

Scott could never be so wrong with your invalid source(s).

I know who he is talkin about and I can reassure. they're restricted by our IT group.

FYI Scott was removed from the Beta program as a burden and a risk to the beta test program.

Scott has no "reliable sources other than our ‘known hacks’.” within the company.

Nice try Scott. You'll always be fooled and 2 steps behind!

Hmmmm.... Tool408, from Denver, CO, with seemingly enough knowledge to see that Scott is "2 steps behind!" Why would that be? His sources are what you term "our 'known hacks'"?? Are you trying to identify yourself as a Dish employee, explaining that you and the rest of Dish have known hacks to keep Scott fooled and two steps behind? You use the word "our" twice. "Our" hacks, and "our" IT group. If you want to give credibility to your statement, then you need to identify how you know such things. Are you from Dish? If you know better than Scott, then what actually is the truth then? We REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to know. An honest dialog is the first step to repair the damaged relationship between Echostar and its customers. Please, just talk to us.

Thanks in advance if you can help reach that end Tool408.....

jsanders

12-20-04, 12:46 AM

To the Dish emplyees reading this message board:

If you read the messages on this board, you no doubt see that 921 customers are upset.

In the end though, we all want the same thing. We want to see Echostar be a successful company. We all share this common goal. Wasn't that the goal of the "Official Dish DVR-921 Support Forum"? The goal, if I understand, is to provide feedback, and in some limited ways 2-way communication, to speed up the development cycle for the 921.

I congratulate Dish for setting up this forum with Mark Lamutt, I think it has been helpful in living up to its charter.

The 921, unfortunately, has been a plagued project. The 921 has, unfortunately, been many, many, many magnitudes worse than any product I have ever bought.

Hopefully, we have learned some valulable lessons from all of this. First and foremost, outsourcing the development to a geographical location that can't receive real world signals is not a good idea. It is also a bad idea to re-invent the wheel each time a new product goes through development. This will become more and more important over time, because the products become more and more complicated. It is also more expensive to re-write the code for each product. Now, compare the Dish 921 with the DirecTV HR10-250. The Tivo was not plagued with the same problems the 921 was. Why? Do you think they re-write the Tivo code every time they come out with a new Tivo? Absolutely not! The Tivo people have been working on their code base and refining it for years through their entire product line. They didn't need to invest as much in development to get it right. The 921 was based on the 721, which is the right idea. That wasn't the major problem. Most of the problems we have had were dealing with recpetion of terrestrial signals! So, ideally, the 921 team should have consisted of a group of people that made the 721 and people with ATSC experience from the 6000 and 811 teams. Outsourcing was a mistake, and Echostar has paid for it.

Why not learn this lesson and make the 921 a great product. When the 921 works, capitalize on the investment by using it as the basis for the next product. You don't need to re-invent OTA guides or Name based recording for all of the different receivers if they share a common code base. Maybe it is worth considering a delay for the 942 until MPEG-4 decoding is commercially feasable, and fulfill the promises that were made for the 921. Learn from the mistakes that have been made.

It is in our best interest to see Echostar be successful. If you want to save money, and cut costs, captializing on a common code base is a great way to do this. It also makes customers happier, with a stable, common experience.

DonLandis

12-20-04, 04:06 AM

jsanders-- Ditto!

Unfortunately your logic is about 4 years too late. E* is well into a myriad of products that are islands. And, they are continuing to proceed along the same path of creating island products. It's as if they allowed anyone out in the industry to build receivers without any common spec except to comply with security, aka smart card design. Notice how well each receiver uses the smart card. Everything else is FUBAR.

Nice summation and reality check, however. No offense but you make an excellent Monday morning Q-Back. Yes, it is Monday morning! :D

jeslevine

12-20-04, 06:40 AM

Scott Greczkowski

12-20-04, 06:50 AM

Scott could never be so wrong with your invalid source(s).

I know who he is talkin about and I can reassure. they're restricted by our IT group.

FYI Scott was removed from the Beta program as a burden and a risk to the beta test program.

Scott has no "reliable sources other than our ‘known hacks’.” within the company.

Nice try Scott. You'll always be fooled and 2 steps behind!

HA!
Ahh Tool,

Your such a tool. :D

Man if you only knew who my reliable sources were :D

If my sources are so bad how come again I break the news before anyone else? Would Mark Lamutt have mentioned there was going to be no name based recording?

Tool I guess you are just one of another Echostar employees who has their heads stuck up their asses and has no clue whats going on at their own company and doesn't care that the consumer is getting ****ed over.

Nice comany you work for man.

While you walk with blinders on, I will continue to work my best to help CONSUMERS get the most from their satellite systems and I will also work hard to break news first. (In fact I am working on something now that could blow the doors off at Echostar... something about operating inefficienties) :D

Back to work. :)

Amphicar770

12-20-04, 08:15 AM

Heck I am still so peeved about the broken promise regarding Firewire that I have yet to get riled up over the broken promise regarding NBR. It boils down to a compete lack of integrity and a callous disregard for customers. DISH used to be the alternative to bad service and high prices of other providers such as cable, now they are becoming the poster child for poor service. What happened?

moviegoerman

12-20-04, 08:32 AM

Brian
You know I usually just lurk around here and I have been reading your loooong post for quite some time now and to be honest I would get quite annoyed with you but have bit my tongue.

Now I see where you are coming from and I mostly agree with points you have made in the past. I have wanted E* to give us a great product for so long I have been blind to reality. I have seen enough. They are incapable of producing great receivers. They do have great ideas but just can't bring it all to the table

:righton: I'll take that as an very complimentary and astounding, "YES, you were right...". You're getting where I was a year ago. Add another year of delays and missed functionality and broken software, then you might be up to my level of frustration. :hair: I'm glad I've gotten a reaction out of you. You might have gotten annoyed with my posts, but that would be a normal reaction for someone, "Disillusioned with Dish". You've just put more validity on what I've been saying even though it can be tough to admit that we all messed up by sticking up for Dish for so long... I had to go through that same pain and realize where I went wrong.

I can't image you're pain as such a loyal customer with (FOUR 921's!!!). All I have to say is you have had plenty of hope to go out and get more of them after the first one. And, "What were you THINKING buying FOUR!!!"??? :uglyhamme You know, at this point, I just have to laugh at the situation, but I won't give up until I get resolution from Dish.

I know it's not easy to agree and see how Dish has been operating once you've sunk so much money into them. You almost feel that you can't be wrong and you have to convince yourself that you've got the best and it can't get any better. Dish wouldn't lie to me, OR would they??? There is no way I could be that big of a sucker. This is the point where we should sit around in a virtual support group and talk to help ease our burdened souls... :lol: I can't just leave this post a short one since I have so much to say when I say it (as usual)... :read: I know I take great pride in my long, but very descriptive posts... It's time for another story of how I rose from the illusion and found the light. I'm sure we all have our own stories and here is mine...

[ fade into hazy daze ]

It took me a while to realize it myself. I think my turning point was at the before summer (April/May?) Technical chat delayed from the skipped/missed Charlie chat. I can't remember the exact one, but it was a classic... Maybe Chris has the notes to that one. Its the one where every answer on fixing the 921 and adding features came from the product development manager of the 921. Same answer for any question... SHE said, "That's right, _______, that issue/feature will be fixed/completed by the next TEAM SUMMIT!!!" Their plan was to have it all fixed by June/July. It was obvious to me and others around me that there was no way in hell they were going to get this thing working. It was clear that the development manager had no clue on how to manage software or deadlines. They were totally date driven and not realistic about any dates. She was just telling her management what they wanted to hear. But, who cared, the customers have always bought into it. They'll do it again! And she's dodged another bullet.

I still was one with hope at that point. It would have been so much easier to just upgrade and get a 921 and remain on Dish. So, I went that route after watching some of my other co-workers jump on Tivo (cold turkey) and head for the hills (ex 6000 user). Another co-worker got a 921 back last January as a beta user and said it was working great for him by the time July rolled around. After a number of standard questions... Does OTA work? Answer=Yes. (At the time that meant locking into local channels.) Records OTA content? Answer=Yes. Reboot daily? Answer=No. It had been 6 months since the initial release, so I thought maybe they did pull a rabbit out of their hat and get it stable. So, I went out and got one!

I spent plenty of time/effort installing the DishProPlus 4x4 switch just so I could use my 721 and my 921 across one wire. That was one of the main factors for me staying compared to jumping. I then entered this forum after I was shocked that there was no guide info to setup timers for OTA content. It only took a day or so to get a confirmation that OTA guide was not supported and would be coming SOON... Well fellas, I knew exactly what that meant after seeing another co-worker go through the 6000 bugs, upgrades and waiting for it to work. Dish had been pushing the 921 as the end all solution for the last 2-3 years to solve all the 6000 problems + add dual tuner DVR support. It was obvious that the 921 had become the new 6000, but even less stable and not functionally complete.

My hope had finally ran out and so did I. I ran, didn't walk, to the nearest place I could find a HD Tivo (10-250) and put up an entire new system right next to my 921. I wasn't about to live without a guide and being forced to set up manual VCR like timers. I just spent a great deal of money jumping head first into HD and I wanted it all! Not a buggy recorder with no guide information. :mad2:

[ fade out of the darkness ]

I've been very skeptical/realistic since I got onto this forum and like I said... L211 has proven me right on many claims over the last 6 months. The 921 does not have a fully functional OTA guide. It still is full of bugs. And now, it seems the majority hot button... It will never have NBR/EBR... L211 was supposed to be the 921 savior for the Christmas season. Again, not to help ones that have it, but more to correct the problem and sell MORE.

Now, that we as consumers are starting to ban together, Dish should be afraid... [ be very afraid ]. It's been my goal from the start on this forum to either get a working 921 or at least feel I've helped some poor soul from getting stuck into the Dish quagmire of lies, deceit, and deception. And on that note, I know I have helped others (and sorry to say annoyed some too)... But, Mission Accomplished...

I know there are customers that love their 921's and it is working for them. i.e. one of my co-workers... but, even lately he's starting to see the problems and looking at other solutions. The main reason the 921 worked for him is because he didn't watch that much TV, he doesn't like OTA programming, etc. Basically, the 921 worked for him because he didn't use it the same way I did. For those customers that have been happy, then they should continue and enjoy it. I've only been trying to consolidate and correct what I see Dish doing to us as consumers.

If we ban together, they can't stop us... :group: We can be a force that can make Dish change. If you want a working, fully functional 921 as promised or your money back, then jump on the bandwagon and let's ride this thing all the way to Denver... Only the quiet ones will prevent it from happening. We need everyone's voice to sing out loud as ONE. :listenup: Again, John, Welcome aboard and thank you for increasing my hope in resolution...

:welcome_s

John Walsh

12-20-04, 08:48 AM

You are exactly right on your posts Brian and my post was meant as a compliment to you. BTW I didn't buy 4 921's, I bought one and it was DOA the replacement could not recognize the smart card (guess it wasn't so smart), the third actually worked for about 2 days then it stopped outputting one of the colors on the component video, fourth one is the one I have now.

Scott Greczkowski

12-20-04, 09:00 AM

If we ban together, they can't stop us... :group: We can be a force that can make Dish change. If you want a working, fully functional 921 as promised or your money back, then jump on the bandwagon and let's ride this thing all the way to Denver... Only the quiet ones will prevent it from happening. We need everyone's voice to sing out loud as ONE. :listenup: Again, John, Welcome aboard and thank you for increasing my hope in resolution...

Great post! And getting everyone to ban together is what I am trying to do. If we make our voices hears we CAN make a difference. I have been in contact with two media outlets now. Let's make a noise, let's let the public know whats going on at Dish Network and why they may want to consider another company.

We hold all the facts. As I posted at SatelliteGuys.US no one made Dish Network go on their own tech chats and make these announcements and prmoises they never keep.

I know now quite a few are upset with me at Dish, one employe emailed me and told me a few might lose their jobs because I broke the news. My response to that is good luck to you on the unemployment line. If it takes the ranting and raving of me and about 25,000 SatelliteGuys and DBSTalk users to make Dish Network a better company and true expose them for who they are then I feel no sadness.

It's time we stood up and joined together as one voice, together we can work wonders. :)

Todd G.

12-20-04, 09:35 AM

I am with you guys. The fact that we won't be getting NBR and the way Dish implemented the OTA guide data really sucks. It is ridiculous to have to edit a timer to allow the recording of OTA.

Todd

WildBill

12-20-04, 09:46 AM

What I see with Dish is typical of what I have seen repeatedly in organizations when 'bean counters' start making policy decisions. There is no vision or coherent strategy other than 'increase profits by lowering costs'. Let's go with proprietary hardware so we don't have to pay royalties (even though we have no experience developing DVR hardware). Let's outsource the software development because we got a cheaper bid (even though that team has little experience and cannot easily test all the features). Let's shortchange current HD customers by eliminating and cutting back on features because they are not worth the cost for so few of them. We'll focus instead on the larger number of new HD customers that will be available a year from now (even though we will create a firestorm of ill will in the process).

I don't see much hope unless there is some real change at the top.

mwgiii

12-20-04, 10:31 AM

BobMurdoch

12-20-04, 10:40 AM

A little perspective.........

I am an E* subscriber. I get it for the programming combination I can get. Grandfathered Distants, AEP, HD Pack, Playboy/Exxtacy (monthly package), TV5 and RFI for my bilingual wife, and the Superstations. I've got a 921, a 510, 2 7200's, and a 4900 active on my account (along with two SW64s and all associated splitters). It doesn't hurt that I am a Mets fan who hates the Yankees and gets to deny giving Steingraber another $2 a month from me. Sirius channels just build my loyalty even further.

I got the 921 to give me a PVR that could record HD content. The firewire would have been nice, but I didn't own a DVhs deck as I feel magnetic tape is dead as a consumer medium. My core needs are being met with this receiver. I don't trust Eldon to build Name Based recording into this as I remember how screwed up the Dishplayer was when they tried to implement it. I already get goofy errors with midnight recordings, and I wonder what happens when the machine tries to add a third timer when two are already in place. A little effort once a week insures that I catch any time or day changes, which is a safer bet than relying on the 921 to not choke when conflicts arise..

I like my fast guide and the Tivo guide would drive me insane as I channel surf at high speeds a lot.

That being said, I DO wish that E* would stop outsourcing their flagships to others (The Dishplayer before and now the 921). What brainiac decided to contract a company who uses PAL broadcasts in their native country to develop an NTSC machine? I keep hoping that they would get their act together, but it isn't a deal killer for me. Simply, I can't get the programming package I want from Rupert (and I distrust someone who controls programming AND distribution to keep from gouging me pricewise).

Hey, if you want to earn a few millions for some lawyers and send a "message" to Charlie, go ahead. Enjoy your PPV coupons which you will get in 3 years. In the past three years I've gotten a $5 coupon from Jiffy Lube, a free year of MSN service (which I couldn't use, becuase I would have to cancel my existing service, lose my email address, and switch to Dialup. Yeah, hello. I'm just as frustrated as you all are, but let's keep focusing on nagging the bejesus out of them to get them to get to the "right" path.

TheBert

12-20-04, 11:07 AM

Well said Bob.

John Walsh

12-20-04, 11:11 AM

If you really want to get Dish's attention, find out who the stock analysts are that cover Dish's stock.

Fill them in on the 921 "high-end" customer revolt.

You think things are hopping at Dish now, just see what happens the first time Dish gets a call from an analyst asking about 921 problems and how customer defections might effect earnings. Talk about the S**T hitting the fan.

here they are

Date Research Firm Action From To
10-Dec-04 Goldman Sachs Initiated In-Line
20-Oct-04 UBS Initiated Neutral
14-Jul-04 CSFB Initiated Outperform
8-Jul-04 CIBC Wrld Mkts Initiated Sector Underperform
30-Apr-04 JP Morgan Upgrade Neutral Overweight
29-Mar-04 Smith Barney Citigroup Downgrade Buy Hold
15-Mar-04 Blaylock & Partners Upgrade Hold Buy
10-Mar-04 Smith Barney Citigroup Initiated Buy
19-Feb-04 Bernstein Downgrade Outperform Mkt Perform
12-Feb-04 JP Morgan Downgrade Overweight Neutral

jsanders

12-20-04, 11:36 AM

I know now quite a few are upset with me at Dish, one employe emailed me and told me a few might lose their jobs because I broke the news. My response to that is good luck to you on the unemployment line. If it takes the ranting and raving of me and about 25,000 SatelliteGuys and DBSTalk users to make Dish Network a better company and true expose them for who they are then I feel no sadness.

It's time we stood up and joined together as one voice, together we can work wonders. :)

Some people at Dish would probably be better suited doing different kinds of work, the ones that make decisions without a lot of forethought. I think a whistleblower is our friend though. They are the ones that see what is going on and see the necesity of change. I don't think that they should be given the boot.

I would love to see some sort of a customer union formed, with the intent of making Echostar a better company. To do that successfully, we also need to come up with a plan, not everyone just doing their own thing. I've got plenty of ideas actually. I don't think this website, or this thread is the way to do it. Is it possible Scott that you could create a new forum on your website where the troops could come up with a game plan?

Scott Greczkowski

12-20-04, 11:55 AM

I have been in contact with Charlie Ergen himself a few times today.

Charlie just sent over the following email...

S,

Please send me a list of advertised features...(and the advertisement) for
the 921...
And highlight the ones that are missing.

c

So does anyone want to make a list that I can send him? Since most of the 921 stuff was talked about on Charlie Chats and Tech Chats if your lists includes dates and where it was said that would help a lot. :)

Scott Greczkowski

12-20-04, 11:56 AM

I would love to see some sort of a customer union formed, with the intent of making Echostar a better company. To do that successfully, we also need to come up with a plan, not everyone just doing their own thing. I've got plenty of ideas actually. I don't think this website, or this thread is the way to do it. Is it possible Scott that you could create a new forum on your website where the troops could come up with a game plan?
Sure Jsanders, we can definately do that. :) Check your PM box in a bit. :)

Scott Greczkowski

12-20-04, 12:03 PM

I just got another note from Charlie...

Got them already..just take the quotes (not out of context) and let me know
the features we promised..i get a script from engineering so let me know..i
assume you are saying nothing was printed that wasn't delivered?
c Charlie wants quotes of what was said on Charlie Chats and Tech Chats. So please for you guys researching this please give exact quotes. :)

moviegoerman

12-20-04, 12:12 PM

All 921 users,

I've contacted a local attorney (in Georgia) who I've known and worked with in the past. He specializes in class action lawsuits on behalf of consumers. He will be looking into the matter and get back with my early 2005 to determine if there's enough of a case and interest to proceed.

He asked if we had any documentation to support our claims. I mentioned the Charlie Chat and Technical Chats that Chris is willing to supply. I've also pointed him to look into this forum and others for information about the customer complaints.

My initial claims I stated to him are:

1. We have sold a "Dish Network 921 DVR receiver" for $1000 with the expectations that certain features would be in the box or would get fixed and feel will never be delivered. i.e. OTA guide, EBR/NBR, etc.

2. Dish cut the price to $500 but hasn't compensated us for the loss of features.

3. Forced monthly payment of local satellite guide (LIL) information in order to get OTA (Over The Air) guide information feature.

4. The 921 isn't reliable for many users and prevents usage of the product with no way to escape the contracts or return the product.

5. Some consumers had to occur additional expenses to switch to providers that could provide a stable competitive solution.

I'm sure many of the claims will be generalized and classified (possibly by state) as we proceed. He explained that it might be each state having to file on behalf of the consumers in that state because of the difference of law between each state.

I don't expect any action to be quick, but I'm willing to see it through. I'll post more information at the beginning of the year after he has done his initial research. If there are other attorneys in different states interested, then please contact me directly and I can pass your information along.

:group: