Distants question

[Link]

If the new laws have changed and won't allow those with waivers or those who qualify to have distants in addition to local channels, what areas besides those that E* and Directv don't have locals in yet will be allowed to get them??

I know some addresses qualified for both locals and distants before, so will those customers get to keep them if they had both, but in the future no others will?

[ADent]

If the new laws have changed and won't allow those with waivers or those who qualify to have distants in addition to local channels, what areas besides those that E* and Directv don't have locals in yet will be allowed to get them??

I know some addresses qualified for both locals and distants before, so will those customers get to keep them if they had both, but in the future no others will?


I have not studied it, but reports say that no one can get OOM Networks if locals are available. If no locals are available and you don't get the networks OTA Grade B, then you can get OOM Networks.

A few people that have both (from 1999 or before?) can continue, but most will have to choose which to lose.

[James Long]

I know some addresses qualified for both locals and distants before, so will those customers get to keep them if they had both, but in the future no others will?If a customer had both on January 1st they will be getting a letter asking them if they want to keep distants. If they fail to respond to the letter - bye bye distants!

Satellite providers DO NOT have to continue to offer distants, even in to customers that legally can get them. It is a permission not requirement.

JL

[Link]

If a customer had both on January 1st they will be getting a letter asking them if they want to keep distants. If they fail to respond to the letter - bye bye distants!

Satellite providers DO NOT have to continue to offer distants, even in to customers that legally can get them. It is a permission not requirement.

JL

I guess that means no more west coast options for some people. Now if a subscriber was paying for 2 distant cities-New York and LA for instance--can they keep both cities or just one set of distants? Most Directv subs, have both.

[waltinvt]

As the smoke clears on this new legislation is anyone else starting to feel like they've been had ?

I wish someone could explain to me something positive about the new law for those of us that really don't have any digital options.

[pomeroy]

Fear not, Talking to the right Directv person can get you what you want. I have been a Directv customer from day 1 and have had the distant networks. Up untill they passed that law were you had to get a wavier, "I think the law about this is a joke if people want the get distant networks and pay for them they should be able to get them and sign a paper telling your local channels to get lost" Back to my story, I was able to get waviers from all of my local channels even though I could receive there channel with rabbit ears :lol: Pretty soon Directv had my locals available, I was really worried about losing my distant networks, So I decided which one I watched the most and and dropped the others because I figured they would not come down on me to bad for just having 1 distant network. Anyway Directv has had my locals for several years now and I still have my distant network channel I wanted to keep, a fews times when I called them to upgrade my package they were looking over my account and said we have locals available to you now do you want them? I said no, that was it plus being a Directv customer for 10 years helps alot. But the key is talking to the right Directv person, and believe it or not it was a female that helped me keep my distant network ;) you can tell in there voice whether or not to hang up :lol: Becareful though because one time I called and never gave my name or account number talking to them and they knew who I was :eek2:

[Lord Vader]

Pomeroy, you didn't even have to drop your other DNS channels. I don't know why you did. I've had all the 380's for years and don't plan on touching them. I'm leaving well enough alone, including all 4 networks' HD feeds, both east and west. :)

[Lord Vader]

If a customer had both on January 1st they will be getting a letter asking them if they want to keep distants. If they fail to respond to the letter - bye bye distants!

Satellite providers DO NOT have to continue to offer distants, even in to customers that legally can get them. It is a permission not requirement.

JLLetter? Says who? DirecTV is supposed to be grandfathering those who had the DNS before January 1. Why would they waste time and money sending out millions of letters? :nono2:

You have such little faith. (http://www.starwars.stopklatka.pl/sounds/disturb.wav)

[pomeroy]

Pomeroy, you didn't even have to drop your other DNS channels. I don't know why you did. I've had all the 380's for years and don't plan on touching them. I'm leaving well enough alone, including all 4 networks' HD feeds, both east and west. :)

I guess I just freaked out over getting those letters in the mail from Directv saying there were going to take them away, Turns out those were computer generated and sent out to everybody :rolleyes: Beside I am lucky to have my KNBC Los Angeles I could not see not having it, I love that channel, I live on the east coast But am on west coast time :) I did not really watch the other distant networks as much. I don't know of many people that have locals available from Directv and can still get distant networks. Directv has been real good to me :sure:

[James Long]

Letter? Says who?Says the Congress of the United States and the President when he signed it into law. I think that trumps. :D

JL

[Lord Vader]

Except that the law never stipulated letters were to be sent out to customers. Nice try, justa, but no cigar for you.

[James Long]

Except that the law never stipulated letters were to be sent out to customers. Nice try, justa, but no cigar for you.47 USC 338 (h) as created by SHVERA
(h) ADDITIONAL NOTICES TO SUBSCRIBERS, NETWORKS, AND STATIONS CONCERNING SIGNAL CARRIAGE.—(1) NOTICES TO AND ELECTIONS BY SUBSCRIBERS CONCERNING GRANDFATHERED SIGNALS.—
Any carrier that provides a distant signal of a network station to a subscriber pursuant section 339(a)(2)(A) shall—(A) within 60 days after the local signal of a network station of the same television network is available pursuant to section 338, or within 60 days after the date of enactment of the Satellite Home Viewer Extension and Reauthorization Act of 2004, whichever is later, send a notice to the subscriber—(i) offering to substitute the local network signal for the duplicating distant network signal; and
(ii) informing the subscriber that, if the subscriber fails to respond in 60 days, the subscriber will lose the distant network signal but will be permitted to subscribe to the local network signal; and
(B) if the subscriber—(i) elects to substitute such local network signal within such 60 days, switch such subscriber to such local network signal within 10 days after the end of such 60-day period; or
(ii) fails to respond within such 60 days, terminate the distant network signal within 10 days after the end of such 60-day period.

Perhaps now would be a good time to apologize, Lord Vader? :D

JL

[Bobby94928]

Give that man a seegar!!!

[joblo]

pursuant section 339(a)(2)(A)

339(a)(2)(A) refers to 1998/99 grade B grandfathered subs.

No letters/choices required for white area subs.

[James Long]

339(a)(2)(A) refers to 1998/99 grade B grandfathered subs.

No letters/choices required for white area subs.Try again. The law applies to any sub in a DMA that has their own locals now, and continues to apply to subscribers as new DMAs get locals. Even those in white areas.

JL

[joblo]

Try again. The law applies to any sub in a DMA that has their own locals now

The law in its entirety, sure, but the section you posted does not. That section applies to grandfathered -- i.e. grade B -- subs only.

[BabaLouie]

Oh, great...do I need to hire a lawyer to tell me what this law really means? :lol:

[Link]

Try again. The law applies to any sub in a DMA that has their own locals now, and continues to apply to subscribers as new DMAs get locals. Even those in white areas.

JL

Isn't every location in the country in one DMA or another? White areas were a part of DMAs, just far enough away from the local station Grade B signals to justify getting a distant signal. Am I correct?

[jdspencer]

I currently get DNS for all four major networks and the HD equivalents from DirecTV. So when the locals become available for my DMA (154) I'll have to make a choice between them or keep the DNS. Right? What happens if one of the networks isn't available locally? Can I keep that one DNS? What happens with the HD feeds if DirecTV doesn't get my HD locals. For me the selection will be easy. I'll keep the DNS. At least until they change the rules again. :)

[James Long]

The law in its entirety, sure,And that is what matters. I could post the whole section of USC but as long as you and I agree that it says what I said it said it's just a waste of typing.

Isn't every location in the country in one DMA or another? White areas were a part of DMAs, just far enough away from the local station Grade B signals to justify getting a distant signal. Am I correct?Most everywhere in the country is in a DMA (the exception being portions of Alaska). White areas are geographical points outside the Grade B of ALL stations of a particular network, regardless of if they are in the customer's DMA or not. What has changed is that White Area residents in DMAs where their locals are offered will not be able to get distants in the future (their only option is their own DMA's locals). White Area residents in DMAs where locals are not offered CAN, for the time being, get distants. But they lose distants if they subscribe to locals when they do become available. The goal of SHVERA is that no customer in a DMA with locals offered can continue to get distants.

JL

[Link]

And that is what matters. I could post the whole section of USC but as long as you and I agree that it says what I said it said it's just a waste of typing.

Most everywhere in the country is in a DMA (the exception being portions of Alaska). White areas are geographical points outside the Grade B of ALL stations of a particular network, regardless of if they are in the customer's DMA or not. What has changed is that White Area residents in DMAs where their locals are offered will not be able to get distants in the future (their only option is their own DMA's locals). White Area residents in DMAs where locals are not offered CAN, for the time being, get distants. But they lose distants if they subscribe to locals when they do become available. The goal of SHVERA is that no customer in a DMA with locals offered can continue to get distants.

JL

I take it the only purpose for distants in the future is for DMAs missing one of the major networks.
Also, are you saying that a DMA where locals are not yet available can freely subscribe to distants now with no waivers, but will have them replaced with their locals in the future?

[James Long]

I take it the only purpose for distants in the future is for DMAs missing one of the major networks.
Also, are you saying that a DMA where locals are not yet available can freely subscribe to distants now with no waivers, but will have them replaced with their locals in the future?As far as I can tell distants can still be added to one's service under the right set of circumstances.

It isn't as easy as just living in a DMA without LIL service (soon only 50 E* markets / 80 D* markets). You also have to live outside the Grade B of all affiliates (including Low Power or Class A) of the network in question. If you live within the Grade B you will probably get that affiliate as a Significantly Viewed station (once your market gets LILs).

Satellite providers can offer ANY affiliate as their distant channel offering as long as the customer is outside the DMA of that affiliate and not blocked from distants by some other part of the law. Most likely we will see more "regional distants" where a neighboring DMA's channels are offered instead of NY/LA. Except in the extreme boonies, those channels are likely to be Significantly Viewed anyways.

JL

[nightrider]

funny thing is this ,, last week i subscribed to dtv threw a grey market dealer , i am in canada , i do get all the 380's new york east channels i also get the hi def locals , i like to now how that company pulled that off ,

yesterday a friend in north carolina subbed me another account to dtv , i get no 380's and no locals period , it says searching for satellite , if i new this was going to happen i would of opened another account with the grey market dealer , any suggestions

[James Long]

yesterday a friend in north carolina subbed me another account to dtv , i get no 380's and no locals period , it says searching for satellite , if i new this was going to happen i would of opened another account with the grey market dealer , any suggestionsThe searching is because the locals you seek are on a spotbeam that doesn't reach far far northern carolina. :D As far as missing distants, sounds like D* has interpreted the law to say no.

JL

[joblo]

I could post the whole section of USC but as long as you and I agree that it says what I said it said
What matters is what it means, and I don't think we agree on that. My point was that the law does not require letters to white area subs, only grade B subs, and you seem to have taken exception to that.

The goal of SHVERA is that no customer in a DMA with locals offered can continue to get distants.
Under SHVERA, there can be no NEW distants subs in LIL areas (unless they get a waiver), but in most cases, people who already have distants can "continue to get" them, even if locals are available and even if they subscribe to locals.

I'm curious, do you deliberately choose your language to be ambiguous? Is there some reason why you wish to cause panic and alarm to distants subs? Do you work for the NAB or some local broadcaster?

[James Long]

What matters is what it means, and I don't think we agree on that. My point was that the law does not require letters to white area subs, only grade B subs, and you seem to have taken exception to that.Sorry, your previous post was worded in a way that made it sound like you agreed with my accurate information.
Under SHVERA, there can be no NEW distants subs in LIL areas (unless they get a waiver), but in most cases, people who already have distants can "continue to get" them, even if locals are available and even if they subscribe to locals.They MUST be subscribed to locals and distants as of enactment. If they didn't have locals taking locals loses their distants. If locals were not available and now become available the subscribers can't take them or they lose their distants. If subscribers did not have distants they can't get them if locals are available in their market.
I'm curious, do you deliberately choose your language to be ambiguous?That's your opinion. Have you actually read the law in context or are you basing your opinion on the posts of others, intuition, or high hopes that you won't lose distants?

Bottom line: Distants are NOT REQUIRED to be offered by the satellite providers, and for the time being they do not seem to be selling them. So regardless of your understanding or my understanding of SHVERA, it comes down to the fact that you can't get distants unless the satellite providers offer them.

The lack of distants in the address brokers seem to make their interpretation obvious.

JL

[puck]

Under SHVERA, there can be no NEW distants subs in LIL areas (unless they get a waiver), but in most cases, people who already have distants can "continue to get" them, even if locals are available and even if they subscribe to locals.

If I understand this correctly, having distants and a Philly local since December 1999, I'm not going to lose distants (another item is that my so called "true" locals became available within the past year in Scranton) or my current local? I currently have E****.

Thanks

[Lord Vader]

47 USC 338 (h) as created by SHVERA




(h) ADDITIONAL NOTICES TO SUBSCRIBERS, NETWORKS, AND STATIONS CONCERNING SIGNAL CARRIAGE.—(1) NOTICES TO AND ELECTIONS BY SUBSCRIBERS CONCERNING GRANDFATHERED SIGNALS.—






Any carrier that provides a distant signal of a network station to a subscriber pursuant section 339(a)(2)(A) shall—(A) within 60 days after the local signal of a network station of the same television network is available pursuant to section 338, or within 60 days after the date of enactment of the Satellite Home Viewer Extension and Reauthorization Act of 2004, whichever is later, send a notice to the subscriber—(i) offering to substitute the local network signal for the duplicating distant network signal; and


(ii) informing the subscriber that, if the subscriber fails to respond in 60 days, the subscriber will lose the distant network signal but will be permitted to subscribe to the local network signal; and

(B) if the subscriber—(i) elects to substitute such local network signal within such 60 days, switch such subscriber to such local network signal within 10 days after the end of such 60-day period; or


(ii) fails to respond within such 60 days, terminate the distant network signal within 10 days after the end of such 60-day period.





Perhaps now would be a good time to apologize, Lord Vader? :D

JL

No need to apologize, for I am correct. From My Master comes this more in-depth explanation. You can and will receive DNS feeds if:

1) You have an RV exemption - NO CHANGE. Nothing in the SHVERA has ANY effect on RV exemptions.

2) You have distant networks now AND subscribe to your local affiliates from your DBS provider - Depends upon HOW you obtained the distant networks...
a) You are within the Grade B contour of one or more local network affiliates (which means you were grandfathered under the SHVIA) - You may keep distant networks OR your local affiliates, but not both. Once you receive notice from your DBS provider, you have 60 days to select distant networks, if that is your preference. If you do not respond, distant network service will be discontinued.
b) You are outside the Grade B contour of one or more local network affiliates (whether according to ILLS prediction, the result of signal measurements, or the granting of a waiver from your local affiliate) - You may keep both distant signals and local affiliates. If you discontinue service, or move, or otherwise change the conditions of your subscription to local and/or distant signals, then you will fall under the provisions of item 4 below.

Note: The DBS providers are required to provide the names and addresses of distant network subscribers, if they do not, then they may not continue to provide distant signals.

3) You have distant networks now and your DBS provider does not offer your local affiliates - You may keep your distant networks. If and when locals are offered, if you want them you must give up the distant networks.

4) You do not currently have distant networks - A couple of possible outcomes, depending on your location:
a) You live inside the Grade B boundary of local affiliates - You can not get distant networks
b) You live outside the Grade B boundary of local affiliates and your DBS provider offers your in-market locals - you can not get distant networks.
c) You live outside the Grade B boundary of local affiliates and your DBS provider does not offer your in-market locals - You may subscribe to distant networks.

An explanatory statement of the legislation, as passed, can be found here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpque...=TOC_61705& (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&db_id=cp108&r_n=hr660.108&sel=TOC_61705&)

Totally independent of these points, IF you live in a market where the local network affiliate is owned and operated (O&O) by the network, then you can get a distant High Definition (ONLY!!) feed of that network. If you local affiliate is not O&O then you are restricted to what they provide, HD or not.

There are also some cases where a station can be delivered outside of its DMA, but within its home state, if it is the only high power affiliate of its network in the state.

Bottom line, if you do not currently have distant networks, the only way to get them is to have an RV exemption, or live someplace where your DBS provider does NOT offer locals AND that is outside the Grade B contour for any network affiliate.
----------------

Nice try. (http://www.derby.org/sounds/movies/vader/beaten.wav)

[James Long]

No need to apologize, for I am correct.Thanks for the snappy reply (it only took you a week) but what you posted wasn't the issue.

JL

[joblo]

They MUST be subscribed to locals and distants as of enactment. If they didn't have locals taking locals loses their distants. If locals were not available and now become available the subscribers can't take them or they lose their distants.
You continue to state this as if it is a general rule, but it is not.

One more time: ONLY GRADE B, GRANDFATHERED SUBSCRIBERS MUST GIVE UP DISTANTS IN ORDER TO GET LOCALS.

This is because, as I previously stated, the text you posted applies ONLY to said grandfathered, grade B subs.


If subscribers did not have distants they can't get them if locals are available in their market.
This is the only thing you wrote that is generally applicable.


Bottom line: Distants are NOT REQUIRED to be offered by the satellite providers, and for the time being they do not seem to be selling them. So regardless of your understanding or my understanding of SHVERA, it comes down to the fact that you can't get distants unless the satellite providers offer them.

The lack of distants in the address brokers seem to make their interpretation obvious.
Yet more disinformation. I checked D* and E*'s web sites both in late December and again today. D* says they are updating their site to take into account the new legislation. E*'s site was updated in December such that DNS is not available in LIL areas, but it continues to show distants available in non-LIL white areas, consistent with the new legislation.

Why do you paint the distants situation as worse than it is?

[joblo]

2) You have distant networks now AND subscribe to your local affiliates from your DBS provider - Depends upon HOW you obtained the distant networks...
a) You are within the Grade B contour of one or more local network affiliates (which means you were grandfathered under the SHVIA) - You may keep distant networks OR your local affiliates, but not both.

I took exception to this in the other forum when Dan posted it. You can read my full reasoning over there, but the bottom line is that I don't think anyone who currently has both locals and distants will be forced to give up either.

[joblo]

If I understand this correctly, having distants and a Philly local since December 1999, I'm not going to lose distants (another item is that my so called "true" locals became available within the past year in Scranton) or my current local? I currently have E****.

Thanks
The relevant grandfather dates are July 1998 through October 1999, IIRC, so presumably those provisions do not apply, and you should be fine.

I'm unclear what you mean by "Philly local", however. Do you mean you have a Philly service address and are receiving Philly LIL service? (That would mean you have all Philly stations, not just one.) In that case, your "true" locals are irrelevant. You cannot subscribe to them because you don't have a qualifying service address.

Or did you subscribe to one or more Philly stations a la carte back when E* was making all locals available as distants to qualified subs? In that case, you should be able to add your "true" locals now, unless I'm wrong about the dates and you are a grandfathered, grade B sub.

Bottom line: watch your mail for letters.

[James Long]

You continue to state this as if it is a general rule, but it is not.Believe what you want, lie or truth. I can't change that.

What you need to know is that satellite providers ARE NOT REQUIRED to offer distants, even to the 1998-99 grandfathered. If E* or D* decides to no longer offer distants in markets with locals it is entirely within the law. (If they decide to drop distants alltogether that is legal too!) Getting distants is a fleeting priviledge, not a right.

JL

[William Millar]

Look Out!!!! I have been receiving the Los Angeles and New York stations, first with my C-Band dish and then with Dish network for over 16 years, I have been with Dish network from almost the start of the small dish and have had the New york and Los Angeles stations, this week Dish sends me a letter and tells me that they have an agreement with my local stations in Wichita Falls, Texas that I cannot no longer receive the out of state networks, and that they would ask for a special waiver from my local stations.

Well they did not get the waiver and tonight my NewYork and Los Angeles stations are gone, and if anyone was Grandfathered I sure was!!! as I said "Look Out" I think there going to cut off anyone that can receive local stations now because Dish has signed an agreement with the local stations to broadcast thier stations only.


Bill