Sue Echostar?

[bushcasa]

I just got off the phone with Tech Support, Customer Service then the Executive Office at Dish Network. Every department, although very friendly and try to be helpful on the phone, does not have the ability to take care of me as a 7 1/2 year customer. I subscribe to the America’s Everything Pak and 2 Network feeds. I paid over $1,500 for a pair of 921 receivers that crash at least once for every 2 hours of use, along with a laundry list of other problems (same problems listed on this board).

I had a bad experience with the first Dish Network PVR the Microsoft/WebTV Dishplayer. When it malfunctioned, Dish Network took care of me by upgrading me to the 521.

Today, the 921’s have misbehaved just as bad as the Dishplayer did a few years back. $1,500 worth of equipment should work as advertised, but for some reason Dish Network is unable to take care of me this time. I’m just expected to enjoy the equipment as is? Meanwhile each software upgrade takes one step forward then two steps back.

I’ve asked to be upgraded to the 942 at no charge. Dish says they can’t because it’s going to new customers only.

I’ve asked to be refunded for these receivers that don’t work. Dish says no, of course.

So, my question is, has any one pursued this matter through the legal system? I want a PVR that works, maybe move on to D*, but I don’t want E* to be able to keep my $1,500 for a product that has never worked as advertised.

Ready to move on,

Jason A. Bush

[Chris Blount]

Why bother. Just sell your 921's on e-bay for about $450 a piece and recoup 2/3 of your investment. Then switch to cable, Voom or DirecTV and stop giving them your hard earned dollars. That can make more of a statement then a lawsuit.

[Tomos]

True enough.

By the way if you sell your 921 do you have to notify Dish so the new owner can get it activated?

Thinking about unloading mine and putting it towards a 942.

[Pils]

You can deactivate it and sell it, you don't have tell E* you are selling it. The other person can activate it then but if you have an unpaid balance on you account, they have to pay that.

[lazaruspup]

Before jumping on a lawsuit kick, check your state's lemon laws. For example, in Indiana, I believe electronics and/or anything that functions like a computer is covered under the state's lemon laws. My co-worker just had his PDA replaced by HP because it had been in for repair a total of 3 times in 2 months. HP refused to do anything more until he faxed them a copy of Indiana lemon laws and they were more than happy to oblige him. Find out what your recourse is before jumping ahead of yourself. Otherwise, I would suggest selling the 921's get yourself a good deal on cable for switching, get a good HD Tivo, or give Voom a try, they'll appreciate the business.

[jergenf]

If you just purchased them then they should still be under the 1 year warranty.
What does dish say about that or even the fact that you want to cancel?
I'm also a valued customer with a 921 and they always listen to my complaints.

[JohnH]

When did they fix the problems you pointed out?

[bushcasa]

Why bother. Just sell your 921's on e-bay for about $450 a piece and recoup 2/3 of your investment. Then switch to cable, Voom or DirecTV and stop giving them your hard earned dollars. That can make more of a statement then a lawsuit.

As far as selling the equipment, it’s a matter of principle to me. It wouldn't be right for me to sell equipment that I know is defective to someone else. IF...I were to put them up on Ebay, I would have to disclose all that I know is wrong with them, which would drive the price down to not even half of what I paid.

Yes, going to cable or D* is what I intend to do, but Echostar should not be allowed to keep my $1500 for equipment they know they sold as defective.

Echostar has failed at making the 921 reliable. They should give me a unit that works, let me return mine for a refund or upgrade me to something that works. They seem unwilling to do any of these options. Their answer is 'wait for the next upgrade'... Upgrade after upgrade later it's still a bad product. This is not acceptable.

Jason A. Bush

[bushcasa]

If you just purchased them then they should still be under the 1 year warranty.
What does dish say about that or even the fact that you want to cancel?
I'm also a valued customer with a 921 and they always listen to my complaints.

They tell me that they have software under development that will fix all the problems that I'm having...this is what all the PVR 921 owners have been told.

[boylehome]

They tell me that they have software under development that will fix all the problems that I'm having...this is what all the PVR 921 owners have been told.
Yes, and it's been about a year and not all bugs are fixed. A software update gets released and some things get fixed, but then there is a host of other bugs, some that weren't fixed and some that are new to the version release. Hopefully, someday soon, they will do one software update that will actually fix everything.

[bushcasa]

Before jumping on a lawsuit kick, check your state's lemon laws. For example, in Indiana, I believe electronics and/or anything that functions like a computer is covered under the state's lemon laws. My co-worker just had his PDA replaced by HP because it had been in for repair a total of 3 times in 2 months. HP refused to do anything more until he faxed them a copy of Indiana lemon laws and they were more than happy to oblige him. Find out what your recourse is before jumping ahead of yourself. Otherwise, I would suggest selling the 921's get yourself a good deal on cable for switching, get a good HD Tivo, or give Voom a try, they'll appreciate the business.

I'm sure Echostar would send me another unit if I insisted, but the problem is I own 2 units and they behave identically bad. A friend at work has the same exact problems with his. After researching the 921 Support Forum on this BBS I am convinced the problem is systemic with this particular model. So I want my money back so I can move on to something that works.

[juan ellitinez]

If your motive is really just to embarass e* I say sue them on Judge Judy or The People's Court.. So millions of people can hear their lame excuses. I think the limit is 5 grand for small claims court :D :lol: :p http://www.judgejudy.com/SubmitCase/submitcase.asp

[NightRyder]

If your motive is really just to embarass e* I say sue them on Judge Judy or The People's Court.. So millions of people can hear their lame excuses. I think the limit is 5 grand for small claims court :D :lol: :p http://www.judgejudy.com/SubmitCase/submitcase.asp

Not gonna happen, both parties have to agree to participate.


NightRyder

[juan ellitinez]

Not gonna happen, both parties have to agree to participate.


NightRyder
How about if he sued the dealer he bought it from???

[NightRyder]

How about if he sued the dealer he bought it from???


I find it unlikely that the dealer would want to be put in that kind of situation on national TV, but who knows? :)


NightRyder

[bushcasa]

If your motive is really just to embarass e* I say sue them on Judge Judy or The People's Court.. So millions of people can hear their lame excuses. I think the limit is 5 grand for small claims court :D :lol: :p http://www.judgejudy.com/SubmitCase/submitcase.asp


My motive isn't to embarrass Echostar, but I do think potential 921 customers should really to some research before buying. The 921 Support Forum on this site is a great place to start. My motive is to get what is fair, my money back or an upgrade to the 942.

Anyway, I’ve been to small claims court once before (my apartment got flooded from a defective washer from the unit upstairs) and it was a really complicated matter knowing who to serve and how. I had to find out who the agent for service was for the corporation that ran the REIT (Real Estate Investment Trust) that owned the building. It paid off in the end but the process took a long time and involved some leg work.

So, does anyone know how to go about it when the company you are suing (Echostar) is located in another state?


Jason A. Bush

[juan ellitinez]

I find it unlikely that the dealer would want to be put in that kind of situation on national TV, but who knows? :)


NightRyderHe could sue Boba :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

[Nick]

Not gonna happen, both parties have to agree to participate. NightRyderWHAT??? No default judgements?

[stonecold]

Ha sueing echostar is pointless. You will end up like those stupid 7200 and 7100 people who thought they were going to sue echostar. Look what happened to them they got a couple of ppv coupons and a pat on the back saying there sorry.


I own a total of 3 dishplayers 2 7100s and a 7200 each time brand new as they were coming off the assembly line waiting to be bought. I stayed out of that mess for a reason as you are not gonig to get what your looking for. I still have all 3 activated. surprise surprise.



But if you want to wast anoth 1500 in court filing fees and process servers to serve echostar and you want to go through the expensive of having a out of state lawyer on retainer which most wont do out of state work for anything less than a 5k retainer. go right ahead.

See all this proves is the fact that Califorinans should of never legalized pot.

[RAD]

If someone was going to sue E* I would have thought it would be over the withdrawal of the firewire/Dishwire support that was advertised as coming in a future software upgrade. That could be a false advertising/bate and switch case which I would think would be easier then suing due to software problems. I don't remember seeing anyone sue, lots of talk about doing it but I never saw that it was done.

[bushcasa]

Ha sueing echostar is pointless. You will end up like those stupid 7200 and 7100 people who thought they were going to sue echostar. Look what happened to them they got a couple of ppv coupons and a pat on the back saying there sorry.


I own a total of 3 dishplayers 2 7100s and a 7200 each time brand new as they were coming off the assembly line waiting to be bought. I stayed out of that mess for a reason as you are not gonig to get what your looking for. I still have all 3 activated. surprise surprise.



But if you want to wast anoth 1500 in court filing fees and process servers to serve echostar and you want to go through the expensive of having a out of state lawyer on retainer which most wont do out of state work for anything less than a 5k retainer. go right ahead.

See all this proves is the fact that Califorinans should of never legalized pot.

As far as I know the expesive(sic) of process servers and the like is recoverable...if you win the judgment. At any rate I don't think the fees would be anything near $1,500 to begin with. The lawsuit with the 7100's and 7200's is a whole other ball of wax. The only party who got anything meaningful out of that suit I'm guessing is the lawyers. I'm talking small claims court, not class action.

I'm sorry YOU got stuck with 3 dishplayers. I had my dishplayer problems resolved well before the class action suit. You can poke fun if you want but I plan to do something about MY 921 situation.

Enjoy those dishplayers,

Jason A. Bush

Elk Grove, C a l i f o r n i a!

[chaddux]

As far as I know the expesive(sic) of process servers and the like is recoverable...if you win the judgment. At any rate I don't think the fees would be anything near $1,500 to begin with. The lawsuit with the 7100's and 7200's is a whole other ball of wax. The only party who got anything meaningful out of that suit I'm guessing is the lawyers. I'm talking small claims court, not class action.

That would be incorrect. You may be awarded attorney's fees and related costs but that is not usually the case (at least in Texas, it's not). As far as the fees involved, $1500 is not only reasonable, it is actually extremely low. I work for two family law attorneys and a bankruptcy attorney. To file a suit in our county, the court's filing fee JUST TO START THE CASE is $192. If you added just 10 hours of attorney time at a very underpriced rate of $100 per hour (we charge $250/hour), you'd already be over $1000. Add the fees of a process server capable of handling a corporation which would probably be several hundred dollars plus the travel costs of picking the citiations from the court and travelling to Colorado to serve Echostar would put you well over $1500. Since this is a major corporation, you can reasonably expect an attorney to put in 50-100 hours worth of research plus court appearances. Using the unreasonably low rate of $100/hour, that puts your total at no less than $6500-$11500. People LOVE to threaten lawsuits because they think it makes them sound tough but the fact remains that lawsuits are very expensive.

As far as small claims court goes, you'd never win. Major corporations in small claims court are never good. EchoStar might even challenge the venue and try to send it to another court. They could request that it be moved out of small claims court or be transferred to a Colorado court (which is perfectly legal and, since you are suing them, could easily be granted). Then, you've got bigger problems.

[tonyp56]

Besides that you only get your money back if you win! And I don't see you winning a case against a multi million dollar company. Sorry.

I'd do just like Chris said, sell your 921's on E-bay, disclose what you must, and thats it. Check some 921s out on ebay and see how much they are going for. Do you really think people don't know about the 921s problems?

[RAD]

Besides that you only get your money back if you win! And I don't see you winning a case against a multi million dollar company. Sorry.


Maybe he would win if he had a jury trial vs. a bench. IMHO a lot of folks are getting sick and tired of the big corporations doing whatever they want. Just look at the former CEO/COO/CFO/ EIEIO's that are being found guilty.

[twillers]

How about taking it to the media. Here in the NY metro area, a few of the TV stations have help lines that will fight for you. They might like going after someone like E* or D*. It would be interesting.

[ibglowin]

This is so wierd.....

I have (2) 921's that work pretty darn well compared to some of you. One I have had since the first month they came out (that means it's almost 1.5 years old now) The other I just got this Christmas when they lowerd the price. Neither has EVER really had a ZSR, missed recording or lost its entire contents or any other major problem.

Bottom line is they work for me and as long as they get rebooted every few days they are doing 90% of the job I bought them for. If they had Dishwire activated it would be 100%.

I use these guys every day/night. I only have a few timers fire each week (3-4) with no over lapping so I would say we are "light time shifters" compared to some others around here. I have maxed it out a couple of times by recording an OTA, watching a PVR recording as well as recording another SD or HD show and it did it all just as advertised.

I really feel for you guys who have "921 lemons" and can't figure out what makes your experience so different from mine ???????????

This guy is not perfect for sure (I have cussed it out a few times in the past year for sure) but I am constantly amazed each week when I can record a show in HD and play it back at my convenience.

Now if only I could add another or larger hard drive.

[boylehome]

How about taking it to the media. Here in the NY metro area, a few of the TV stations have help lines that will fight for you. They might like going after someone like E* or D*. It would be interesting.
What would the headliner be? E* plants bugs in victims homes; Bug ridden box battles consumers; This is a product that will bug you :lol: Seriously though, if they could get an angle like factual stuff like misleading advertisement, lemon law, etc. you might progress.

[RAD]

Bottom line is they work for me and as long as they get rebooted every few days they are doing 90% of the job I bought them for. If they had Dishwire activated it would be 100%.

I use these guys every day/night. I only have a few timers fire each week (3-4) with no over lapping so I would say we are "light time shifters" compared to some others around here. I have maxed it out a couple of times by recording an OTA, watching a PVR recording as well as recording another SD or HD show and it did it all just as advertised.



I think you sort of answered your own question. You know where the bugs are in the box so you change how you use the box to get around those problems.

[bushcasa]

That would be incorrect. You may be awarded attorney's fees and related costs but that is not usually the case (at least in Texas, it's not). As far as the fees involved, $1500 is not only reasonable, it is actually extremely low. I work for two family law attorneys and a bankruptcy attorney. To file a suit in our county, the court's filing fee JUST TO START THE CASE is $192. If you added just 10 hours of attorney time at a very underpriced rate of $100 per hour (we charge $250/hour), you'd already be over $1000. Add the fees of a process server capable of handling a corporation which would probably be several hundred dollars plus the travel costs of picking the citiations from the court and travelling to Colorado to serve Echostar would put you well over $1500. Since this is a major corporation, you can reasonably expect an attorney to put in 50-100 hours worth of research plus court appearances. Using the unreasonably low rate of $100/hour, that puts your total at no less than $6500-$11500. People LOVE to threaten lawsuits because they think it makes them sound tough but the fact remains that lawsuits are very expensive..[/

In California these fees are, but I'm not talking about attorney fees anyway. Once again I'm talking about a Small Claims Court here. I'm not interested in getting an attorney. Attorneys are not even allowed in small claims court in California. http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/small_claims/basic_info.htm

As far as small claims court goes, you'd never win. Major corporations in small claims court are never good. .

I must admit, I'm not well versed in the legal arena, but this didn't stop me from winning a lawsuit against a large corporation before. It wasn't a company as big as Echostar, but it was a pretty large corporation nonetheless.

EchoStar might even challenge the venue and try to send it to another court. They could request that it be moved out of small claims court or be transferred to a Colorado court (which is perfectly legal and, since you are suing them, could easily be granted). Then, you've got bigger problems.

This is a very good point. This is something that I considered before, and I must admit, could be a show stopper as far as I'm concerned. I'll be contacting the California Department of Consumer Affairs and see what they have to say about corporations that are based out of the state.

[Darkman]

Let the buyer Beware...

People can read forums like this one.. and hear the stories..

Also .. from time to time.. E*.. at Charlie Chats etc.. keep on talking that boxes are not perfect.. that they are continuously working to improve the s/w .. on going process... "so bare with us".. (not saying for how long to bare also :) ).....

So people should be aware.. money - spent...
that is why Money is Money.. to be spent...
and the Cheap people.. or the ones that can't afford - just do not buy...

But.. let the buyer beware.....

Can try to sue.... - but ... Good luck ... Let us know what happens :)))))

[Laverne]

... "so bare with us".. (not saying for how long to bare also :) )..... !rolling Sorry, Darkman! I can BEAR with you (or them) a lot longer than I can BARE..... :o :o :o

(Didn't any of you people study homonyms in school at all??? Nick, where did these people get their education, GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS??? :lol: )

[Darkman]

LOL...

I knew Bare / Bear / Beer / etc ))) - didn't look right .. (after i sent the post)))) ... but i didn't feel like going back and correcting it...

I type very fast also.. and just keep on going..
Wanted to make a quick point ..and made it))))

"Synonyms, homonyms, cinamon, etc" ))))) .. this was LONG LONG time ago.. and in Russia also.. ('em all those thingies DO have different meanings there...lol) - DO NOT forget, and BEAR in mind (or is it BARE :)))) .. that for lot of us English is just a 2nd language to start with...
And that some type fast also..
Others just should bear in mind - that this is not a Spelling Forum after all, but DBS :)

The most important thing is to be understood.. - which, i am pretty sure, i was....
( .. if like some other posts.. often.. where you read them 10 times..and still do not know "what a heck did he mean".. that's a different story... )

Anyhow.. hehe - it's all good..
Can't BEAR it any longer though.. gotto go on with my day... - so maybe i ll just go BARE myself (or try to BEAR with doing so anyhow).. and take a shower :D

[Darkman]

Can't BEAR often.. when some come BARE loaded for BEAR :D

Just give us some BEER!!!!

[Laverne]

....Anyhow.. hehe - it's all good....
It's all good. :D Just couldn't pass up the funny! :D

[jreed]

Everytime I come back to read the latest on the 921 it really makes me happy that I took mine back to Costco. I am tired of being the unpaid tester and quasi-product developer for new products. I have a new method of dealing with these problems, if it doesn't work out of the box or fixable within 15 days, back it goes. I have better things to do with my hard earned money. Vote with your pocketbook.
Jerry

[bushcasa]

Everytime I come back to read the latest on the 921 it really makes me happy that I took mine back to Costco. I am tired of being the unpaid tester and quasi-product developer for new products. I have a new method of dealing with these problems, if it doesn't work out of the box or fixable within 15 days, back it goes. I have better things to do with my hard earned money. Vote with your pocketbook.
Jerry

I like your method. A method I wish I had used last year.

[jsanders]

The TV consumer advocate guy sometimes does a good job. He basically threatens to embarrass the company on television unless they do the right thing for the customer.

I've personally had dreams of going to E* headquarters in Littleton(?), with TV news cameras filming as I take the 921 and throw it at the building, or throw it at Charlie's office. By no means am I suggesting someone actually do it, but I guess that thought signfies how angry it makes me at times.

[stonecold]

As far as I know the expesive(sic) of process servers and the like is recoverable...if you win the judgment. At any rate I don't think the fees would be anything near $1,500 to begin with. The lawsuit with the 7100's and 7200's is a whole other ball of wax. The only party who got anything meaningful out of that suit I'm guessing is the lawyers. I'm talking small claims court, not class action.

I'm sorry YOU got stuck with 3 dishplayers. I had my dishplayer problems resolved well before the class action suit. You can poke fun if you want but I plan to do something about MY 921 situation.

Enjoy those dishplayers,

Jason A. Bush

Elk Grove, C a l i f o r n i a!


What to be sorry about.


I have 3 rock hard stable Dishplayers

With NBR. I been enjoying NBR long before the 522 was even a sparkle in Charlies eye.


Has the orginal dishplayer had issues over the years. Yes... anything to overly annoying that I want to sue... No... Does the dishplayer equal or is better than the crap Direct TV hands out Yes. Is the dishplayer better than the SA DVRs Comcast of South West Florida hands out //// Very much so.


I am pround dishplayer users and hence my custom title.

[stonecold]

The TV consumer advocate guy sometimes does a good job. He basically threatens to embarrass the company on television unless they do the right thing for the customer.

I've personally had dreams of going to E* headquarters in Littleton(?), with TV news cameras filming as I take the 921 and throw it at the building, or throw it at Charlie's office. By no means am I suggesting someone actually do it, but I guess that thought signfies how angry it makes me at times.



Go hire Micheal moore's fat ass.


so you have the 921 and Micheal Moor to catch it on film when you throw it in to charlies office .

[larrystotler]

From that fact that you are posting here, you must not have any real intention of sueing E*. If you did, you would do:

#1 - Put up a website, like 921ownersvsEchostar.org.
#2 - Have a questionaire and petition on the website that would find out what re-occuring problems, and what problems are in a majority on the unit.
#3 - Contact and attourney and set up a class action lawsuit.


However, what all these idoits out there that like to sue don't do, why not sue to have the problems fixed or the units replaced by, wait for it, a new E* product that will also have problems? Those that sue for money hurt all of us in the long run, since it causes the company to RAISE prices to pay the settlement rather than absorbing the costs and loosing profitability..............

[bushcasa]

What to be sorry about.


I have 3 rock hard stable Dishplayers

With NBR. I been enjoying NBR long before the 522 was even a sparkle in Charlies eye.


Has the orginal dishplayer had issues over the years. Yes... anything to overly annoying that I want to sue... No... Does the dishplayer equal or is better than the crap Direct TV hands out Yes. Is the dishplayer better than the SA DVRs Comcast of South West Florida hands out //// Very much so.


I am pround dishplayer users and hence my custom title.

I guess you are right. After years of updates the Dishplayer did end up being ok. I wouldn't go as far to say ‘rock solid’, a little clunky for me, but…ok. I still have mine, it's sitting unplugged right next to my computer next to my unplugged 4000...my very own personal Echostar museum. The thing about the Dishplayer, as you know, is that it was a combined effort between Microsoft and Echostar. When the Dishplayer was having all of its problems I assumed that Microsoft was probably the one screwing all the things up, since well...they're Microsoft, the company that made CTRL+ALT+DELETE and the 'Blue screen of death' everyday language.

My vision of Echostar at the time was the company who had created a stable DBS platform (i.e. the model 4000) who just ended up partnering with the wrong company. If only they could dump MS and start work on an entire PVR platform on their own...Now with my experience with the 521 and the 921 I know better. Although the 521 wasn’t nearly this bad.

I am truly glad you enjoy those DP's, I've been out of that unit so long that I don't remember it having NBR...that's great. You owning three makes that function really useful.

Best of luck,

Jason A. Bush

[stonecold]

Most people seem to forget that while the 7x00s did not and still do not have a season pass function or dish pass funtion they are NBR based units they reocrd based off channel and name of program. They are not timer based like the 501 and so one and so forth.

[bushcasa]

From that fact that you are posting here, you must not have any real intention of sueing E*. If you did, you would do:

#1 - Put up a website, like 921ownersvsEchostar.org.
#2 - Have a questionaire and petition on the website that would find out what re-occuring problems, and what problems are in a majority on the unit.
#3 - Contact and attourney and set up a class action lawsuit.




First off, I don't know if you have been following the whole deal here. If you have time please read this entire thread and the 921 Support Forum on this BBS.

Secondly, I don’t know how accomplishing your steps 1, 2, and 3 above makes me more likely to sue. I can assure you my intentions are sincere.

Thirdly, I see a lawsuit as a very last resort, but when you are wronged as a consumer and all hopes of resolving the problem with Tech Support, Customer Service and the Corporations Executive Office have been exhausted, there’s not much recourse left.

I asked a guy in the Executive Office what he would think if he were in my shoes. He actually said he wouldn’t want to be in my position and he didn’t think it was right. I then asked him what he would do if he were in my shoes. He said he’d take the equipment back to the vender and get his money back.(I’ve tried this, but since it’s past 30 days, the vender says to have Echostar take care of it) It’s a Catch 22 the vender refers you to E*, E* refers you to the vender, and it’s still under a 1 year warranty.

However, what all these idoits out there that like to sue don't do, why not sue to have the problems fixed or the units replaced by, wait for it, a new E* product that will also have problems? Those that sue for money hurt all of us in the long run, since it causes the company to RAISE prices to pay the settlement rather than absorbing the costs and loosing profitability..............


Suing to have the problems fixed? I don’t know how you do this, there is no KNOWN fix.

Replacement 921 units will not fix this problem. The person who I spoke with from the Executive Office even agrees with this point. Once again, all I want is to return my equipment for a full refund or an equipment upgrade.

As far as hurting Echostar’s profitability goes, that’s not my concern as a consumer. It’s not like I’m suing for 2.9 Million for spilling Hot Coffee on myself. My concern is not to get ripped off with my hard earned dollar ($1,500 to be exact), you should expect the same!

[Pils]

I feel for you. I have tried everything to settle my problems with the Executive Office and they would do nothing. They need to be taught a lesson of some kind. It may be a small step in claims court or whatever but if that can catch a headline or two in a paper and kind of snowball.... The things they put customers through. Uggghh. I would definetly sumbit a complaint to better business bureau, first thing I would do. May have to wait for 4 weeks to hear back though.

[alebowgm]

I've personally had dreams of going to E* headquarters in Littleton(?), with TV news cameras filming as I take the 921 and throw it at the building, or throw it at Charlie's office. By no means am I suggesting someone actually do it, but I guess that thought signfies how angry it makes me at times.

Now I have something to dream about too... lol...

[bushcasa]

I feel for you. I have tried everything to settle my problems with the Executive Office and they would do nothing. They need to be taught a lesson of some kind. It may be a small step in claims court or whatever but if that can catch a headline or two in a paper and kind of snowball.... The things they put customers through. Uggghh. I would definetly sumbit a complaint to better business bureau, first thing I would do. May have to wait for 4 weeks to hear back though.

Thanks for the idea.

Thanks to all that sent me some great ideas and support VIA Private Message.

Now I got to take those ideas and run with it, because first my wife got mad at me Sunday night when Desperate Housewives didn't record (again). Now she's mad at me for wasting (her opinion) time on this board. So if you'll excuse me, I've got to put whatever free time I have into actually resolving my issue. I'll check in when I can.

Best of Luck to all,

Jason A. Bush

[KingLoop]

...I am tired of being the unpaid tester and quasi-product developer for new products...
I've always said don't jump on the newest receivers...ESPECIALLY the first run. If something looks good, I wait until it is stable!

[larrystotler]

Thirdly, I see a lawsuit as a very last resort, but when you are wronged as a consumer and all hopes of resolving the problem with Tech Support, Customer Service and the Corporations Executive Office have been exhausted, there’s not much recourse left.

Suing to have the problems fixed? I don’t know how you do this, there is no KNOWN fix.

As far as hurting Echostar’s profitability goes, that’s not my concern as a consumer. It’s not like I’m suing for 2.9 Million for spilling Hot Coffee on myself. My concern is not to get ripped off with my hard earned dollar ($1,500 to be exact), you should expect the same!

Uh....wait a second....isn't the thread titled "SUE ECHOSTAR"????? Don't know where I got that impression. Secondly, there are issues with the 721/921 systems and the original Eldon(sp?) developers that evidently have contributed to a lot of the mess. Lastly, when something like the internet access feature is advertised and not delivered, you have to look closely at that to see if they are guarenting or not. Sue if you wish. After 2-3years in court, when they have already replaced them, you might get a decision. Look at the SCO vs. IBM crap that has been going on for 2 years with no end in sight...........

Personally, I'm thankful that we have people like Mark and Jason who are liasons with E* to help fix the problems.

[bushcasa]

Uh....wait a second....isn't the thread titled "SUE ECHOSTAR"????? ..

Actually if you look at my orginal post it says "Sue Echostar?" not "Sue Echostar". Somehting got mixed up during the editing and how my first message was posted.

Secondly, there are issues with the 721/921 systems and the original Eldon(sp?) developers that evidently have contributed to a lot of the mess..

Not sure of your point here. My complaint concerns Echostar.

Lastly, when something like the internet access feature is advertised and not delivered, you have to look closely at that to see if they are guarenting or not..

I'm not familiar with this.

Sue if you wish. After 2-3years in court, when they have already replaced them, you might get a decision. Look at the SCO vs. IBM crap that has been going on for 2 years with no end in sight............

You are comparing Apples to Oranges.

Personally, I'm thankful that we have people like Mark and Jason who are liasons with E* to help fix the problems.

Me too.

[larrystotler]

Actually if you look at my orginal post it says "Sue Echostar?" not "Sue Echostar". Somehting got mixed up during the editing and how my first message was posted.

The title of this thread is "Sue Echostar" without the question mark. I did read through the thread, and your attidtude seems like you are looking to do this. If this is your feeling, the it is up to you to do what you feel you must.

Not sure of your point here. My complaint concerns Echostar.

Eldon was the company that was contracted to write the software for the 721/921 series of receivers. However, my understanding is that there was a falling out and E* took over the software coding, which is why it has taken so long for the fixes to occur.

I'm not familiar with this.

The 721 was advertised on the packaging and in the news as having internet access. However, this feature has never been turned on, and AFAIK, some of the interactive software still doesn't work properly in either the 721/921 series(they share a similar code base). The same applies in a way for the OTA not working completely. In a way, you can say that it's similar to the universalness of the remote. It's a convience, not a guarantee. As for some of the other issues, they are unfortunately not systematically wrong on EVERY receiver, which makes the situation that much more frustrating for both the subs and the coders.

You are comparing Apples to Oranges.

The comparision was meant for the length of time of the lawsuit, not the reason for the suit. IMHO, if you feel you have been treated unfairly, sell the receivers(since it's obvious you probably won't be able to get a refund) and switch to D* and pay $1000 for the D*HDTiVo. Just bear in mind that it's not perfect either, no matter what the TiVo Zealots try to claim. It has had some issues as well, although maybe not as severe as the 921s.

[jsanders]

Eldon was the company that was contracted to write the software for the 721/921 series of receivers. However, my understanding is that there was a falling out and E* took over the software coding, which is why it has taken so long for the fixes to occur.


That isn't true. Eldon is still doing the coding. In fact, they even flew some of their people out here so they could debug the 921 in a native, non simulated environment. As a result, the machine worked a lot better in the Denver area than other places.

The reason it has taken so long for some fixes to occur is that the project is horribly mismanaged. Their programmers appear to lack insight.

[bushcasa]

Eldon was the company that was contracted to write the software for the 721/921 series of receivers. However, my understanding is that there was a falling out and E* took over the software coding, which is why it has taken so long for the fixes to occur.

Very good information and I have no reason to doubt you. The point that I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter who Echostar hired, what subcontractor did this or that. It's Echostar's name on the warranty.

IMHO, if you feel you have been treated unfairly, sell the receivers(since it's obvious you probably won't be able to get a refund) and switch to D* and pay $1000 for the D*HDTiVo.

I hear you, but I've got to do what I think is right.

[bushcasa]

That isn't true. Eldon is still doing the coding. In fact, they even flew some of their people out here so they could debug the 921 in a native, non simulated environment. As a result, the machine worked a lot better in the Denver area than other places.

Do tell. This is very interesting. You say they flew people out here. Here being where you are San Jose?

[larrystotler]

So does that mean I can sue Dell over the fact that the included MS-WinDoZe software is buggy, prone to viruses, and locks up my computer? Granted, we are talking about a simplistic DVR, so lets go with one of the Media Center PCs. Same type of unit, just as many problems and bugs. Who do we sue? I stand corrected on the Eldon part. I thought I was told that E* took over the coding, be regardless, the problem is definately the s/w that they have installed on the system, and not the system itself. I've run Linux on all kinds of hardware with very few problems. In their quest to keep people from modifying it like a TiVo box, they have created problems for themselves.

As for your idea about not selling a defective unit, there are many people out there who will willing buy them from you regardless of the problems you have had. And they may work just fine for the buyer. I've been thinking that E* is having problems on the switch/LNB side as well as the software, since it seems like there is no real consensus on what bugs are actually recorded on all units, like I previously pointed out. Without a clear indication of some problems that are actually systematic on almost ALL 921s, you will have a tough time with a lawsuit. It was pointed out earlier about the 7xxx receivers had the same type of problems in their lawsuit.

[larrystotler]

Do tell. This is very interesting. You say they flew people out here. Here being where you are San Jose?

AFAIK, Eldon is based in England.....(yes/no?)

[jsanders]

Eldon flew some of their programmers to Denver. That is why I said that OTA issues got resolved quicker in Denver as a result. I implied that in my previous post, sorry it wasn't more clear.

There have been people that have a 921 and another receiver, like a 510, that share a cable run, using a diplexer that have complained that the 921 suffers from audio and video dropouts where the 510 doesn't.

[Mark Lamutt]

Eldon is a company that Dish purchased. They are based in England, although for the past 10 months or so, they've had at least 2 people here in Denver full time. Eldon developed the 921. They had nothing to do with the 721. The 721 was developed in Denver. Eldon also developed one of the 301 interations.

[bushcasa]

Eldon flew some of their programmers to Denver. That is why I said that OTA issues got resolved quicker in Denver as a result. I implied that in my previous post, sorry it wasn't more clear.

Now I understand, Thanks. I didn't know they were coming over from overseas originally. So lets fly a Airbus340 load of those guys out here :)