PVR Charges are Illegal and Wrong [Archive]

ekammerzelt

06-16-05, 07:55 AM

You did not provide me any software! I purchased this unit outright from a Third Party. I do not lease this equipment nor did I sign any software license aggreement. Nowhere and at no time was I ever informed of these fees. Your Website also fails to mention these fees.

You are not providing any "service" or software maintenance of Any kind and I demand to have this charge removed immediatly or you to refund my reciever as I will discontinue its use.

What you are doing is illegal and I will press the matter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: FeedBack@customermail.dishnetwork.com [mailto:FeedBack@customermail.dishnetwork.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 6:05 PM
To: @email.com
Subject: RE: Customer Service,

Dear Mr. xxxxxxxxxxx,

Thank you for your email. The Video-On-Demand (VOD) feature is quickly becoming an industry standard. As such, and to remain competitive in the marketplace for this type of feature, DISH Network found that it was far too costly to provide this software at no charge based on the current promotions that we offer. With our current lease and purchase programs that include installation of up to four tuners at no charge we simply couldn't afford to install this expensive equipment at no charge. Having been a faithful customer of DISH Network since (date customer activated) I’m sure you'll agree that the difference between us and our competitors is that we offer more choices for programming subscriptions. As such, the more monthly programming purchased by the DISH Network consumer that has a DISHPlayer DVR system will reduce the monthly charge for the DISH Video on Demand feature.

The DISH Video-On-Demand's tape less recording capabilities give viewers complete control of their television to watch what they want at their convenience, including network programs, pay-per-view movies, sports, and news or special events. Other companies with this feature will charge as much as $12.95 for the same features. To add even more value to the DISH Video on Demand feature I'd like to point out that digital cable boxes with this feature only allow the consumer to record movies. Cable customers can't record specials, local channels, sporting events, etc. And, if the consumer uses the Tivo service they still have to purchase that equipment on top of what they use to get their television reception. Additionally, DISH Network has set the industry standard, offering as much as 100 hours of record time with the largest hard drive in the market with 120 GB Hard drive in the DISH Player-DVR 510, DISH Player-DVR 522 and the DISHDVR 921.

As a current customer, you may always use our website to view your current or previous billing statements, add services, or make payments to your account. Please use the link https://customersupport.dishnetwork.com/customercare/UserManagement/login.jsp to visit our Online Customer Support Center.

Your business is greatly appreciated and we thank you for allowing us to be of assistance to you. If you have any further questions or concerns, please refer to www.dishnetwork.com <http://www.dishnetwork.com/> or reply to this email.

Sincerely,

Lane J.

DISH Network eCare

** Please include all previous correspondence when replying. **

-----Original Message---

_____________________________________________
From: @email.com [mailto:@email.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:05 AM
To: FeedBack
Subject: Customer Service

Full Name:

Account Number:

Question: I purchased a new Dish reciever from a third party (921) and installed it as a second reciever.

I have been using an older DVR(From Dish) for years without any "service charge" of any kind.

After activiating my new 921 I learned that there was a service charge for the DVR feature.

I wish to express my Extreme disapointment with this charge. You do not provide any service for this charge, the ability is inherent with the reciever. I can not understand how it is even Legal.

I am extremely dissatisfied and would appreciate a response. I would like to know how you can possibly justify this expense on my behalf.

kzosat

06-16-05, 08:47 AM

Why does this fee surprise you? It's an industry standard. Tivo does it, cable companies do it (heck charter is 10.99 month for a DVR in my area, that includes lease fee too)

Do I like the fee? No. But understand is going to be the nature of the beast. There are alternatives out there (replay TV, MS Media Center)

I assume you did research before buying something like the 921. usually you go to the manufacturer website and look it up. It's always caveat emptor.

See link below, just one of the pages on the dish site lists the fee.
http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/products/dvr/index.shtml

In dealing with media companies (cable, satellite tv or radio) if you haven't learned to read the fine print you should probably start.

You are the only one looking out for your interests. Like Rodney Dangerfield said "You gotta look out for Number 1, but don't step in number 2"

bhawley

06-16-05, 08:50 AM

To add even more value to the DISH Video on Demand feature I'd like to point out that digital cable boxes with this feature only allow the consumer to record movies. Cable customers can't record specials, local channels, sporting events, etc.
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

kzosat

06-16-05, 09:00 AM

stonecold

06-16-05, 09:17 AM

Well I would make one thing very clear....

When dish goes Mpeg4 and starts slowly swaping out customers equipment. That I refuse to pay a dvr fee for replacements on my DVR fee free units. Hell I am not even going to mention my "lifetime DVR Service" I paid for on two of my 7200s.

I own too many dvrs that it would be a good chunk of my bill would be just dvr fees.

Dish just needs to do the dtv thing one 5 dollar fee covers all dvrs and I would not object to it so much.

Link

06-16-05, 09:31 AM

Dish needs to charge one DVR fee per account of $4.98, not $4.98 per DVR receiver.

kzosat

06-16-05, 09:31 AM

Yes, I agree, there are going to be ALOT of angry people with old dishplayers and PVR' fee free units.

I also agree that there should only be 1 fee per account (regardless of number of DVR units).

Bill R

06-16-05, 09:31 AM

I am extremely dissatisfied and would appreciate a response. I would like to know how you can possibly justify this expense on my behalf.

As others have said no one likes the DVR (or any other) extra fee. It is a fact of life though that vendors are going to charge more for extra features because (1) it cost money to develop those features and (2) they can because customers are willing to pay for that extra functionality.

Your complaint is typical of a customer who did not do his homework before buying this product. Even reading this forum would have given you information as to what additional monthly costs you would have. As far as your comment about it not being legal and "how you can possibly justify this expense on my behalf". It just shows that you don't have a clue about what it costs to develop, maintain and support a product like a DVR.

ekammerzelt

06-16-05, 09:38 AM

The issue here is that Dish isnt doing anything to justify that fee.

Tivo provides a direcctory and recording service that they maintain, thats different. If I subscribe to Tivo as a service they have every right to charge me however they choose.

Dish doesnt charge me for my older DVR, why the new one?

Simple truth is I could build my own DVR with a simple PC. Them charging for features built into the hardware is like Ford charging me a fee to use an air conditioner I already own.

There is no such thing as an implied software license. I'd like to see that hold up in court :)

kzosat

06-16-05, 09:50 AM

Wow, you don't know how to search for anything do you. All software carries a right to use license. It is implied in the use of the product. Read the EULA on windows. You don't have to sign anything, it's your actions that constitute acceptance.

The issue here really is you refused to research before you bought and got burned.

SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT

Important:
Do not use the software accompanying this Agreement (the "Software") until you have carefully read the following Agreement. Opening the sealed Software package and/or using the Software (or authorizing any other person to do so) indicates your acceptance of the terms and conditions contained in this Agreement. If you do not agree with the terms and conditions of this Agreement, promptly return the unopened Software and accompanying items to the place of purchase within 60 days of purchase and your money will be refunded. This Agreement sets forth the terms and conditions for licensing of the Software from ___________________ ("Licensor")

License and Certain Restrictions
You are granted a non-exclusive license to use one copy of the Software only on a single computer and a single terminal. Although you are encouraged to make a backup copy of the Software for your own use, you are not allowed to make more than two copies for backup purposes. The Software (including any images, icons, graphics, animations, video, audio, music, and text incorporated into the Software) is protected by copyright laws. You may not make copies of the Software except for backups. You may not give copies to another person, or duplicate the Software by any other means, including electronic transmission. You may not copy the printed materials accompanying the Software, nor print copies of any user documentation. The Software contains trade secrets, and in order to protect them you may not decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, or otherwise reduce the Software to human-perceivable form. You may not modify, adapt, translate, rent, sublicense, assign, lease, loan, resell for profit, distribute, or network the Software, disk, or related materials or create derivative works based upon the Software or any part thereof.

Bottom line: You don't like it, get rid of the 921, build your own system (which will use software with a license agreement implied in using it), go to directv or cable.

finniganps

06-16-05, 10:11 AM

Bottom line: You don't like it, get rid of the 921, build your own system (which will use software with a license agreement implied in using it), go to directv or cable.

I agree completely! Go see what Direct's 921 equivalent costs - double! If you don't like the charge get a unit without the recording PVR capability or change services. No one is forcing you to use the 921.

ekammerzelt

06-16-05, 10:27 AM

kzosat

06-16-05, 10:32 AM

Bottom Line....
Ghey.

Not sure how some of you can defend this bs. Dish isn't straight forward about their fees, someone please show me somthing on their website.

I feel the fee's are bogus, I paid a lot for the 921 and it didnt come with a eula or any explanation about any DVR charges.

I disagree with their Ma Bell mentality and I'm not alone.

FREE DVR NOW!

:lol:

GHEY?

Anyways, I posted a link above to at least one of the pages on the site that lists it.

Ma Bell mentaility? You are not alone cause there are always lambs out there to follow someone/something without getting all the facts.

I am pretty much assuming by your last post that you are trolling now and I am done discussing this issue.

Bill R

06-16-05, 10:40 AM

The issue here is that Dish isnt doing anything to justify that fee.

Tivo provides a direcctory and recording service that they maintain, thats different. If I subscribe to Tivo as a service they have every right to charge me however they choose.
DISH is doing a lot to provide you with the DVR service. Like TiVo they ARE providing the extra services that are needed to make your DVR work. It is just your limited understanding of how your DVR works that prevents you from knowing and understanding that.

Dish doesnt charge me for my older DVR, why the new one?
It basically a marketing decision (re-cooping the extra costs involved in providing the DVR service via a service fee). Costs have to be accounted for somewhere and if not by a monthly fee then the vendors would have to charge more for their monthly packages.

There is no such thing as an implied software license. I'd like to see that hold up in court

It should be easy to find a lawyer that is willing to take your money (and that is all he will be doing for you) and take your case to court where you will lose as dozens of others have done when they tried to challenge the legality of a software license. You don't have a case and really are just mad at yourself for not finding out what you were getting yourself into.

KingLoop

06-16-05, 10:54 AM

Not sure how some of you can defend this bs. Dish isn't straight forward about their fees, someone please show me somthing on their website.
Dish Network has discontinued the 921 so there is not much on their website about it... this is what was on there before.

Monthly Fees and Payments. You agree to make a monthly payment to DISH Network by the payment due date for the programming you select and for the following fees as applicable depending on the equipment you select: Additional Outlet Programming Access Fee: a $4.99 per month additional outlet programming access fee will be charged to your account for each receiver activated beyond the first. DISH Network DVR Service Fee: a $4.98 per month DISH Network DVR service fee will be charged to your account for each model 510 or 921 receiver activated. This fee will be waived if you subscribe to either America ’s “Everything” Pak or Latino “Everything” Pak. The $49.99 activation fee is not a deposit and is nonrefundable but will be credited on your first account billing statement. State and local sales taxes may apply. Other fees may apply as set forth in the Residential Customer Agreement.

This fee applies to all newer DVRs (510, 522, 625, 921, and 942).

This is COMMON KNOWLEDGE... just because you didn't know about it when you bought and activated your new HDDVR doesn't mean it wasn't in place and valid prior to you getting the 921.

Scott Greczkowski

06-16-05, 11:35 AM

Dish needs to charge one DVR fee per account of $4.98, not $4.98 per DVR receiver.

Well said.

the_bear

06-16-05, 11:53 AM

This definitely shows caveat emptor (buyer beware). This is why the lease plan is so attractive. You never know when Dish might raise their rates/change programming and you are SOL. I cannot think of any laws that are broken. Dish tries to make their fees vary clear (unlike cable/cell phone bills which are also riddled with tiny add on charges).

P Smith

06-16-05, 01:40 PM

DISH is doing a lot to provide you with the DVR service. <skip>.
Would you post a list of the "lot" doing specifically for DVP/PVRs ? Beside 9 days EEPG. :rolleyes:

James Long

06-16-05, 02:29 PM

Dish needs to charge one DVR fee per account of $4.98, not $4.98 per DVR receiver.Dish needs to charge no "DVR tax" of any amount.

They should use DVRs as a selling point not as a way to pad the profit margin.

Would you post a list of the "lot" doing specifically for DVP/PVRs ? Beside 9 days EEPG.Legal expenses for infringing on TIVO's patents and software development expenses.

JL

juan ellitinez

06-16-05, 02:36 PM

Well said. How about a NO DVR FEE PETITION

Mark Holtz

06-16-05, 03:38 PM

I am a former Dish subscriber who had a 35 hour fee-free DVR, two stand-alone receivers, and AT180+Sac Locals+Superstations. I was hoping to replace the 501 with a larger capacity DVR. But, when Dish announced the DVR fee in 2003, there was a huge controversy about it. I simply switched over to DrecTV and the TiVo product because I felt that the TiVo software on the TiVo units was much superior compared to the DishDVR software. I also expanded the original 40GB hard drive to two 160GB hard drives for 243 hours of recording capacity.

I know that the 921 is a different creature than the DirecTV TiVo unit, but still, I feel that Dish charges the DVR fee because they can.

KingLoop

06-16-05, 04:08 PM

My opinion is this, say I have 2 TVs now I can sub to AT60 with a 322 with the DHA for $32/mth. If E* is setting up new subs with free EQ, what is my motivation to keep a 322 as opposed to getting a 522? A 322 has an MSRP of of $149, the 522 is over twice that. Does E* want to spend twice as much on EQ for new DHA subs? Of course not. So, E* charges $5/mth for the DVR fee. Before E* made DVRs free to new subs, there was no DVR fee. Now it's an industry standard to charge for a DVR. I do think that if I spend $350 on a 625 I shouldn't have to pay the fee, but life is life.

larrystotler

06-16-05, 04:50 PM

Technically, since the DVRs are able to see the 9 day guide instead of just the 2 day guide, then they can say they are charging for the extra 7 days. Just like the D* Tivo does for the 14 days and the SA TiVos for 39 days(I think). The service/software you are paying for is basicallty the guide more than anything else.

steveo70

06-16-05, 05:01 PM

DISH is doing a lot to provide you with the DVR service. Like TiVo they ARE providing the extra services that are needed to make your DVR work. It is just your limited understanding of how your DVR works that prevents you from knowing and understanding that.

Then why not charge 721,508 and 501 owners? aren't they providing extra services for those owners? They charge DVR fees cause they can, plain and simple.Dish waived the Personal TV service for most 7X00 owners didn't they? If it was for the higher costs due to services provided then they should have charged the fee from the beginning. It's just as ridiculous as charging a fee when you downgrade. For what? a CSR pressing a button on a computer?

If we have to pay then I agree with one fee for all your DVR boxes.

cdoyle

06-16-05, 06:06 PM

I new to Dish, but I went with them because of the no fee on the 508 recievers. I'm a little worried about what is going to happen when they switch to mpeg4. If they try and tell me that I need to buy/lease a new reciever and then have to pay the DVR Fee. I'll most likely say no thank you, and cancel my service.

I don't mind upgrading equipment, but I just can't see spending $5 a month til the end of time for DVR.

I'm really hoping dish is looking at how many 501/508 (and all the rest of the no DVR fee users) that are still out there, and granfather them in on the no DVR when everyone is forced to upgrade boxes.

KingLoop

06-16-05, 06:18 PM

I don't mind upgrading equipment, but I just can't see spending $5 a month til the end of time for DVR.
What is a comperable alternative to Dish for you? How much does it cost per month for the channels you want plus a DVR with someone other than Dish?

You know, a lot of people are complaining about $5/mth. Is there any company that doesn't charge a DVR fee? If you feel so strongly buy an SA TiVo and pay the lifetime service fee. Or switch to D* and spend $100 each for their TiVos. It takes 40 months to break even in DVR fees if you only have 2.

Geronimo

06-16-05, 06:29 PM

Exactly what law is volated here? I understand that many of us don't like the fgees but they have the right to charge them and we have the right to cancel service.

larrystotler

06-16-05, 10:04 PM

Then why not charge 721,508 and 501 owners? aren't they providing extra services for those owners? They charge DVR fees cause they can, plain and simple.Dish waived the Personal TV service for most 7X00 owners didn't they? If it was for the higher costs due to services provided then they should have charged the fee from the beginning. It's just as ridiculous as charging a fee when you downgrade. For what? a CSR pressing a button on a computer?

If we have to pay then I agree with one fee for all your DVR boxes.

They can basically say that the 501/508/721s were beta boxes, and therefore don't have a fee. Basically, when they came out with the 510, they figured that they could charge it and it worked. As for the $5 per account, part of that is that they charge the DVR fee as part of the model #. They would have to change the system to make it work. Anyone want to setup a poll site like Scott's and protest the DVR/PVR/PTV fees PER receiver??? :D

kzosat

06-17-05, 07:13 AM

They can basically say that the 501/508/721s were beta boxes, and therefore don't have a fee. Basically, when they came out with the 510, they figured that they could charge it and it worked. As for the $5 per account, part of that is that they charge the DVR fee as part of the model #. They would have to change the system to make it work. Anyone want to setup a poll site like Scott's and protest the DVR/PVR/PTV fees PER receiver??? :D

I would fully support an attempt to get Dish to charge 1 DVR fee per account.

Side note: Whatever happened to the OP? Been quiet. Maybe talking to his lawyer.

BobaBird

06-17-05, 07:26 AM

Is there any company that doesn't charge a DVR fee?IOW, "everyone else is doing it." That isn't a justification. And it's more of a common practice than an industry standard as nothing requires it. They simply saw that others were getting added monthly income. Never mind that the others were providing an actual service such as delivering listings via toll-free phone calls - they wanted some too. And they themselves have stated the limited value (read: "rip off") of the so-called "service" - see the quote in my sig.
The service/software you are paying for is basically the guide more than anything else.I would agree with that except that I don't recall any stated need to charge for it on the 501, 508 or 721. The generally accepted thinking was that the added benefit was also good for Dish because DVRs reduced churn. If we accept that we are being charged for the use of software and delivery of a longer guide, then we really should not accept being charged on each DVR.F. Additional Receivers. ... Each additional receiver would be authorized to receive the same Services as your initial receiver.http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/RCA/index.shtml

If DVR is a "service" as they claim, and the addl outlet fee covers mirroring of services, then by charging the DVR fee on addl receivers Dish is in violation of the Residential Customer Agreement.

kzosat

06-17-05, 07:53 AM

Boba, per your post, it sounds like you could have just said

"Yes, I want to fight to get 1 DVR fee per account also"

The only problem I have with that line in the RCA is what if your initial receiver is not a DVR? yeah, I know you could swap it etc. Other than that, that is the first good point I have seen to counter the per DVR fee. I agree with you on that.

Also, let start some petitions to get rid of all the phone fees. I am serious. I am sick of paying off the debt for the spanish american war. Pretty sad when my phone service starts out at $26.99 and has unlimited calls, 200 minutes long distance included etc (that I never go over) and my final bill is $49.56.

http://www.savewithusa.com/plans.php?pg=TAX
Why do I need to pay a SLC on my phone? Shouldn't that be part of the service charge? What if I don't have LD service on my phone?

Why do I have to pay for the NANP, this has already been laid out years ago.?

Why do I pay for the ability to keep my number if I move down the street(Local Number Portability)? I don't care if I keep the same number. Why can't I pay for it when I move and not pay a fee for this "service" every month?

See there are plenty of things we could also be complaining about.
Maybe we should get a subsidy from the gov't if you have satellite TV as the landline is pretty much required.

BobaBird

06-17-05, 08:23 AM

Boba is a different member of this forum. I could have just said "me too" but that also wouldn't do much to explain how, or why I think that.The only problem I have with that line in the RCA is what if your initial receiver is not a DVR?It's really no different than having 2 HDTV receivers and a primary non-HD receiver. The non-HD model doesn't get the HD programming but you also don't pay full price for each HD model. The AO fee covers it.

kzosat

06-17-05, 08:24 AM

I think I edited my post when you replied, cause I agree with you.

Didn't realized there was just a Boba either, I apologize.

larrystotler

06-17-05, 09:08 AM

Also, let start some petitions to get rid of all the phone fees. I am serious. I am sick of paying off the debt for the spanish american war. Pretty sad when my phone service starts out at $26.99 and has unlimited calls, 200 minutes long distance included etc (that I never go over) and my final bill is $49.56.

The telephone hookup scheme has 1 real purpose. That is to verify that the receiver is actually in your house. E* and D* use the caller ID info to do this. However, since more and more people are using cell phones and Vonage(which they fear), this is becoming a problem. 12 years ago when they started, almost everyone had a home phone, and this was considered an excellent idea. No one forsaw that call phones would overtake home phone usage, and they are unprepared for this change. I had an E* CSR try to get me to upgrade to a 522 when I called in a bug report on my 721 recently, and like I told them, I would rather buy a used 508 or another 721 since my bill would go up $10 a month if I got a 522 due to lack of a home phone and the DVR fee.

I recently inqured about getting DSL, and you HAVE to have a phone line with Verizon. The $30/month DSL rate ended up at $45+ after getting the cheapest phone line they had. I stcuk with my cable modem, which is faster. I haven't had a home phone since 1997, and I have little interest in having one now.

djlong

06-17-05, 09:12 AM

Legal expenses for infringing on TIVO's patents and software development expenses.

JL

E* has a perfect defense. If they were truly infringing on TiVo patents, E* DVRs would *work*.

larrystotler

06-17-05, 09:12 AM

I would agree with that except that I don't recall any stated need to charge for it on the 501, 508 or 721. The generally accepted thinking was that the added benefit was also good for Dish because DVRs reduced churn. If we accept that we are being charged for the use of software and delivery of a longer guide, then we really should not accept being charged on each

Yes, but back when the 721 and 501 came out, you had to pay full price for it. They allowed new DHP subs to get the 501 with a $50 upgrade fee. When they rolled out the 510, they started giving it away. The DVR fee for them is a way to recoup the cost of the receiver more than anything else. They did the same with the 921. You could get it for a $299 upgrade fee. The problem is that those who are buying them outright are getting screwed. And, since they wanted the 522 as a lease only box, they could have gotten around this that way. It's easier for them to just charge it per receiver in their system.

kzosat

06-17-05, 09:15 AM

The telephone hookup scheme has 1 real purpose. That is to verify that the receiver is actually in your house. E* and D* use the caller ID info to do this. However, since more and more people are using cell phones and Vonage(which they fear), this is becoming a problem. 12 years ago when they started, almost everyone had a home phone, and this was considered an excellent idea.

I know why they require the phone line, I wasn't questioning that and personally it will be long time for me to completely trust a cell phone for coverage, but when I can, I will drop the land-line.

Link

06-17-05, 09:20 AM

To me, Tivo offers the name based recording Season Pass service and offers actual features to make it worthy of a fee for $4.99 on Directv. I think the fee of $10 or $12 on a regular Tivo receiver is outrageous. Dish calls their DVR service Video on Demand but it is no more than just choosing timers from the guide like a VCR can do. A 510 user isn't getting anything more than a 508 user and are having to pay $4.98 a month for a VOD service????? Give us a break!

Dish just uses any excuse possible to get more fees out of customers and decided the VOD fee would be the way to do it.

kzosat

06-17-05, 09:25 AM

it isn't just Dish Link. Again, have you looked at all the fees you pay the state and the fed lately? But it still is not Illegal to do so. They are like every retailer out there. They put a price on something which choose to buy or not buy.

HDMe

06-17-05, 09:45 AM

I haven't ever heard of anyone who likes fees!

But almost every company has fees in one form or another, that are seemingly for nothing and generally figured to be profit-padders.

Nothing I've seen or heard says to me that any of the Dish fees are illegal, though... so you just have to decide if they are worth it. If you buy a receiver from someone else before checking with Dish, then sign up for Dish service blindly and are "surprised" by fees, then shame on you.

Also, if you buy a receiver from someone other than Dish, why would you even remotely think Dish would be supposed to refund your purchase? Go back to the guy on eBay you bought the receiver from...

I don't like the fees... and one of the reasons I stick with my 501 is because of the lack of fees for that receiver... but one day I'll have to decide.

Right now, though, it looks like most users must have spoken and said $5 is an ok fee, otherwise no one would have jumped to the receivers that had fees on them. Dish gave a choice, and we all chose/spoke... unfortunately more people are OK with the fees so we can expect at some point to have a fee on everything by the time they phase out the oldies.

KingLoop

06-17-05, 09:46 AM

A 510 user isn't getting anything more than a 508 user and are having to pay $4.98 a month for a VOD service?????
The question would be, why would anyone get a 510 instead of a 508?...Also, the 508 was never free, You can lease a 510.

ekammerzelt

06-17-05, 10:03 AM

I'm an idiot for not doing some research about the fee's on the newer DVR's, I admit that much.
I have a 501 and never thought about Dish charging a silly DVR fee. Hits me hard because I'm usually a nut about researching things well before a buy like that.

But I still feel DVR should be Free, and WILL be free eventually. Dish isnt doing me any special service for my 921's ability to function as a DVR. The unit does this without any special software updates (Not that the software works well anyways)....I'd be happier if they called it a Dish Reciever software assurance plan and skipped the DVR charge BS.

One things for sure:
It won't happen if people just blindly pay fees to companies, especially bogus fee's like this one.

Windows Media Center will do some pretty fine DVR recording, no monthly Fee. I should have gone that route. I haven't decided if I'm leaving Dish yet or not after 8 years.

zmark

06-17-05, 11:08 AM

Inaba

06-17-05, 11:19 AM

I would rather buy a used 508 or another 721 since my bill would go up $10 a month if I got a 522 due to lack of a home phone and the DVR fee.

What do you mean go up 10 bucks a month? Dish doesn't charge anything extra if you have no phone line... I've not had a phone line since I switched back to Dish from DTV several years ago... they've never charged me an additional fee; I wouldn't have signed up if they had. My cell phone is cheaper per month than my land line, so there's absolutely no reason for me to have a land line.

I can't order PPV stuff, but that's no big deal... who the hell wants to watch over-compressed video and pseudo DD5.1 PPV crap from Dish anyway when Netflix is cheap and provides you with 10x the value as 4 PPV movies per month?

I have a 721, so no DVR fee, either. If I'm forced to pay a DVR fee when they switch over to MPEG 4, I'll be going back to DTV and the most excellent Tivo interface. I despise the fact that the 721 does not have Name Based recording.

the_bear

06-17-05, 12:20 PM

finniganps

06-17-05, 12:52 PM

To all you echostar apologists saying $5 is no big deal, it quickly becomes a big deal when you mave multiple DVRs. I have 4 DVRs, so that would be and additional $20/month, or $240/year for absolutely nothing. At that rate, using a MythTV box with multiple capture cards becomes a viable option.

If you really believe you get NOTHING for it, than get a non-DVR box and use your VCR to record, or go to Direct. We all have choices folks, you don't HAVE to pay the DVR fee. There are many alternatives including:

1) Go to another company that doesn't charge the fee.
2) Use a VCR or DVD recorder.
3) Buy a 501, 721 or 508 that doesn't charge fees.
4) Subscribe to the AEP and get the fee waived.

Exercise your freedom of choice. If the model Dish used didn't work they'd change it. They've found they can charge for the DVR, so they do....if you don't like it, you can make a different choice.

garypen

06-17-05, 01:24 PM

As others have said no one likes the DVR (or any other) extra fee. It is a fact of life though that vendors are going to charge more for extra features because (1) it cost money to develop those features He purchased the unit, and that cost should have been factored into the sale price.

DirecTV manages to provide the same, most would say better, service for only a single DVR charge per household. (But, they are licensing their DVR technology from Tivo. So, it is somewhat justified, especially since the same thing directly from Tivo costs $13/month.)

Comcast includes the DVR, HD, and Lease fees in one $10 charge. (Dish's DVR, HD, and lease fees would add up to $20.) So, the original poster has a valid point.

and (2) they can because customers are willing to pay for that extra functionality. That is very true. Sad...but, true.

zmark

06-17-05, 01:43 PM

Exercise your freedom of choice. If the model Dish used didn't work they'd change it.

Yes, because corporation always make the best long-term decisions :lol:

If you really believe you get NOTHING for it

I can prove you get nothing for it, simply because I'm not paying the DVR fees now. I have 2 721's and 2 508's. If I am forced to upgrade my receivers, I'll have to pay $20/month extra just to retain the functionality I enjoy now. And don't even try to argue that there's something new in a 510 that warrants an extra $5/month.

And that's the problem. I have no incentive to upgrade anymore. No new HD PVR, no subscription to HD programming. Echostar should be enticing me to upgrade so that I an buy more programming, not punish me for it.

And let you think I'm being rediculous, consider that I currently pay $15/month for the privilege of running 4 receivers. If I upgrade them all, I'll have to pay a total of $35/month. There are full programming packages that cost less than that.

Roger Tee

06-17-05, 02:21 PM

I know why they require the phone line, I wasn't questioning that and personally it will be long time for me to completely trust a cell phone for coverage, but when I can, I will drop the land-line.

Not to hurt anyones feelings but:

a. I wouildn't trust a cell phone to outperform two cans on a string.
b. I don't own a cell phone.
c. I will never except if I need one for a job search own a cell phone. Then it'llbe gone as soon as I land a job.
d. I have no interest in paying cell phone charges when I only have basic phone service, NO Long Distance.

IF cell phones ever become as reliable and have the same quality and are cheaper I may rethink my position. Based on the service provided by Cellular companies when people call me on those things here at work they got a long way to go.

Of course I also feel sorry for people that go everywhere with those things stuck in there ear for fear of missing a call (Including my own brother).

finniganps

06-17-05, 02:49 PM

I can prove you get nothing for it, simply because I'm not paying the DVR fees now. I have 2 721's and 2 508's. If I am forced to upgrade my receivers, I'll have to pay $20/month extra just to retain the functionality I enjoy now. And don't even try to argue that there's something new in a 510 that warrants an extra $5/month.

I also have a 508 and 721. When E* goes to MPEG4 and I'm forced to upgrade, I'll look at my options and make a decision. You have chosen to avoid the $5 fee just as I have. None of us know what plans E* will offer when they move to MPEG4, so to speculate is foolish at this point.

And that's the problem. I have no incentive to upgrade anymore. No new HD PVR, no subscription to HD programming. Echostar should be enticing me to upgrade so that I an buy more programming, not punish me for it.

E* does run promotions fairly regularly to try and get people to get HBO or Showtime or a higher programming package. Yes the promotions expire and you pay full price or the $5 to downgrade, but other companies also run promotions, so I don't agree with your point. Just because you don't like the promotions they run, doesn't mean they don't run them.

cdoyle

06-17-05, 05:07 PM

Also dish is still showing the 501/508's on their website to buy, and it doesn't mention the DVR fee for them. It also say avaiable at your nearest retailer, and you know the retailers say 'if you get this model, there is no montly DVR Fee'

So when Mpeg4 starts to roll out in the next year or so, their are going to be some unhappy customers who felt they were misled because their relatively new equipment is outdated, and they will also have to start paying an additional $5 fee.

I just hope dish realizes this, and either gets rid of the DVR fee to bring in new customers from D or Cable (it's why I joined). Or at least grandfather these box owners with no DVR fee to keep them as customers.

HDMe

06-17-05, 05:34 PM

Has it occurred to anyone that these DVR fees might be intended to talk some people out of choosing those particular receivers?

Think about it... IF they keep introducing new technology, and they have a bunch of old receivers in stock... suddenly people want the new receivers and not the old ones... and there are supply problems with the new ones and they have to turn people away, meanwhile they lose more money on the old ones sitting in the warehouse.

But... if they make new receivers tied to a new monthly fee... this does a couple of things... For everyone who buys/leases one anyway they get $5 more per month so in a year or so they pay for some of those old receivers sitting in the warehouse... Then for the rest of us who don't like the fee, we are enticed to buy/lease the old equipment instead!

I suspect that when they run out of 501/508 receivers in the warehouse... they will offer similar no-monthly-fee options on other receivers to help move them.

Think about it.

cdoyle

06-17-05, 05:38 PM

Evil Capserian

06-18-05, 02:12 AM

Hey did you guys know that our forefathers back in 1776 actually put it into the constitution about DVR FEES? I read that the US Congress can make laws that are necessary and proper. So a DVR fee is necessary and proper I guess so no more fighting please.

larrystotler

06-18-05, 01:07 PM

b. I don't own a cell phone.
IF cell phones ever become as reliable and have the same quality and are cheaper I may rethink my position. Based on the service provided by Cellular companies when people call me on those things here at work they got a long way to go.

I haven't had a home phone since 1997. Granted, my cell is less than 100% reliable, but I am in a 4 state area within 35 miles, and free long distance is a neccessity. Also, I get all the extra features for free, caller id, voicemail, etc. $60 per month. I save at least $20 for NOT having a home phone I don't need and could care less about. And for all those Vonage lovers, you have to have a broadband connection to use it, which you don't have everywhere you go. I'll stick with my cell.....

BobaBird

06-18-05, 03:58 PM

I agree with you on that.It's like you're begging to be added to my signature! :grin:

SAEMike

06-18-05, 04:10 PM

If you want the DVR, pay the fee, if you don't want it, don't pay the fee. There are other options. Get over it, suck it up, and stop whining like little girls.

Geronimo

06-18-05, 04:16 PM

He purchased the unit, and that cost should have been factored into the sale price.

\

It might be accurate to say they COULD do that or it would be preferable to the vonsumer but where do you get that tehy SHOULD do that?

kzosat

06-19-05, 12:19 PM

It's like you're begging to be added to my signature! :grin:

heh, per the new rule on in Item B, you have to get my permission :hurah:

kzosat

06-19-05, 12:20 PM

double posted.

garypen

06-20-05, 06:44 PM

\

It might be accurate to say they COULD do that or it would be preferable to the vonsumer but where do you get that tehy SHOULD do that?Just a little thing called logic. I'm not saying they are required by law, of course. That's stupid. But, logic and common sense says they should. The 510 cost them no more than the 501/508 to develop, and offers no additional functionality. (hdd space is nmot a function.) And, the 510 actually provides less functionality than the 721.

The argument against Dish DVR fees per receiver, especially for the 510, is clear and strong.

HDMe

06-21-05, 10:10 AM

Do you buy Joe-Bob's ice cream? Or Ben & Jerry's? The ingredients are mostly the same, right?

Or how about Coke/Pepsi vs Food Lion cola?

We all are guilty of paying more for things that really aren't substantially different than something else...

Ultimately, if you like the device then pay the fee... if you don't want to pay the fee, don't get the device. No one yet is being forced to get one of the fee-bearing devices.

garypen

06-21-05, 11:53 AM

Not really a good argument. In many cases, brand name products do offer more than generic versions. (Better taste, higher quality, etc.) In those cases, most people will pay more, if they can afford it. (This is not the case with Dish DVR's, of course.)

In those cases where there is no discernable difference, or there is actually lower quality (Dish DVR's could apply to that) you bet I choose the cheaper generic version. To do otherwise would be just plain stupid. (The fact that so many people choose "stupid" doesn't surprise me, of course.)

airpolgas

06-21-05, 01:20 PM

Two 508 user here. Enjoying the no-fee, for now.

The fee debate would be much less if we were allowed to replace/add hard drives into our Dish PVRs. (Of course, only when it's bought, not leased)

socceteer

06-21-05, 05:41 PM

Your complaint is typical of a customer who did not do his homework before buying this product. Even reading this forum would have given you information as to what additional monthly costs you would have. As far as your comment about it not being legal and "how you can possibly justify this expense on my behalf". It just shows that you don't have a clue about what it costs to develop, maintain and support a product like a DVR.

OK lets be realistic....!

The cost of support should be factored into the cost of the unit, such as Tivo. The fact here is that Tivo and others DVR manufacturers started to charge for a subscription to their service of receiving a guide. not the service of updating the software. Just like all manufactures and software dealers, if they want additional revenue they can sale a new device with better features or sale a new software with new features. What we are all paying is for the use of the service and they choose to use that money to enhance the software and/or hardware.

When you buy a new TV or car, etc, you get what you need to make sure it all works, yes you can add features, but you pay for those up front. I do not get monthly bills to cover the next development of a TV or car. The manufacturers factor that into the sale price. then they charge extra for services. just to those who need and and not to all customers.

Ideally for the consumer we should all have to pay 1 fee for all DVR in a single house. and if I want enhancements, I will buy a new unit or a software upgrade. One time charge.

The unfortunate fact is that they have us by the cojones because we accepted those conditions. The only solution is to wait for the first provider that offers the 1 charge per house and most people will start to move to that provider with time.

ekammerzelt

06-22-05, 11:27 AM

If these fees are for software updates then they should have the balls to say that and stop discriminating between receivers.

The problem I have with Dish is that they claim the DVR functionality is the reason for these extra fees.

Everyone here knows the DVR function is a native ability of the hardware. These things are PC's with Hard-drives, they are not hosting the space for you on some server somewhere or providing a special service for DVR.

I realize that if they did make this change and started charging a software update fee then everyone on the older systems would be pissed about having to pay those fees too.

More upset people means better chance for a change. Change is what I want.

tsmacro

06-22-05, 12:57 PM

:lol: Ya know if you're going that upset over something, you might as well make over something that actually matters. I mean shoot, people usually reserve getting that worked up over something like religion or politics or some such thing. I guess I have met some people for whom TV is their god and the programming and the electronic gadgets that go with it are their religion. Honestly if you want to change Dish's DVR charge the only real way to do it is with your wallet, e-mails filled with over-the-top false outrage probably won't get the job done. Dish Network has decided that DVR usage is feature that most people are willing to pay $4.98 for and living in this capitalist soceity the only thing that's going to change that is if the customers decide not to get DVR's and pay the charge. If enough people did that then Dish would change their price policies. Now of course if that did happen you know of course you'd still be paying more, because as soon as the DVR charge disappeared you know the programming charges would probably go up across the board three or four dollars a month for every subscriber. After all Dish is in this to make money and they've figured out their pricing to cover their costs and make a profit. So if you're really serious about this, dump Dish, subscribe to Direct or cable or go buy a stand-alone TiVO and spare us the ridiculous false accusations of Dish engaging in illegal and/or immoral business practices.

jlabsher

06-23-05, 06:49 AM

I have a 501 & 522, the 501 has no fee and the 522 has a $5 DVR fee. When I had the installer put in the 522 I got 50 feet of coax and ran it halfway through my house to the second set. By doing this the 522 replaced 2 301's. Each 301 had a $5 monthly receiver fee. I came out even on the deal.

For the life of me I can't understand why anybody would need 4 DVRs in one house, replace those 508's with a 522 you come out ahead.

With 200 channels, there still isn't enough on to warrent 4 DVR's! The weather is beautiful, the birds are singing, come on guys - the sun is shining - get outside!

KingLoop

06-23-05, 08:23 AM

For the life of me I can't understand why anybody would need 4 DVRs in one house, replace those 508's with a 522 you come out ahead.
For anyone in that situation, I agree a 522 would be more desirable. Personally, I wouldn't want to pay the DVR fee or the additional outlet fee (for not having a phone line). I have (2) 721s so I would lose out a lot. I could live with a single DVR in the bedroom if I had to but I like the choice that the dual DVR gives me. To keep me happy I'd need 2 of the 522s the only real thing I would gain is NBR and a little more software stability. With (2) 522s my bill would go from $55 as it stands now to $75. I'd get jacked. If that happens maybe I'll move to D*. I like my E* though. D*'s guide would take some getting used to. When cable moves to all digital that would be something to consider. Until then I am happy with what I've got and how much I pay. At the end of the day I figure if you aren't happy with what you have or how much you pay get something differant. It is a consumer's market and I'm a consumer.

jrb531

06-29-05, 12:18 PM

You "are" paying for the programming guide. Dish just grandfathered in the older DVR's because, at the time, they sold those partially based upon "we don't charge and others do" so they allow the older DVR's (why I'm keeping my 501 and 508 for as long as I can) to be waived for the $5 fee.

What does suck is that they charge "either" a $5 rental fee or $5 DVR fee for the new ones. Why "anyone" would buy one instead of renting one if the fee is ther same is beyond me.

I do agree, however, that this $5 is way way too much. It costs them the same for someone to type in the programming data for one unit or a million so why $5 each? Either that person makes a million dollars a month in salery or they are just using this as an excuse.... IE "we charge because we can get away with it"

The line that we are paying for programming updates is utter and complete BS. They reprogram the non-DVR's for free so why do the DVR's cost so much?

So we pay $60 a year for someone to type in guide data..... hmmmm is this not the same guide data that the non-DVR's get for free?

What is the difference between a DVR and non-DVR? Why does it cost extra $$$ for the DVR's and not the base units?

I can understand that "maybe" the additional programming needed to do recording and such takes a few more programmers but $60 a year per DVR? no way!

This is a scam and when my units go out or MPEG4 comes I'll be renting the units so I only pay the one $5 fee which is what they always wanted to begin with.

I do love how they charge you $250 up front in order to "rent" a HD DVR. This sounds more like leasing a car than renting a box LOL.

-JB

derwin0

07-08-05, 07:00 AM

So we pay $60 a year for someone to type in guide data..... hmmmm is this not the same guide data that the non-DVR's get for free?

What is the difference between a DVR and non-DVR? Why does it cost extra $$$ for the DVR's and not the base units?

The difference is that non-DVR's get a 2-day guide, and DVR's get a 9-day guide. The 9-day guide eats up some additional bandwidth at 100.

Geronimo

07-14-05, 08:31 AM

Just a little thing called logic. I'm not saying they are required by law, of course. That's stupid. But, logic and common sense says they should. The 510 cost them no more than the 501/508 to develop, and offers no additional functionality. (hdd space is nmot a function.) And, the 510 actually provides less functionality than the 721.

The argument against Dish DVR fees per receiver, especially for the 510, is clear and strong.

But companies have the rightt o price their products any way they choose. You may not agree with it or like it but they still have that right. In this case it is pretty clear that DISH would like to abandon the no fee DVR model. After the 7x00 brouhaha though they know that it is a lot easier to do it when the unit is purchased insted of adding (or reimposing)a fee later.

Persoanlly I don't like it either. And I think it is a bad decisiion. But I guess the real yardstick is revenue raised. Is it higher than it would have been? If so they will no doubt continue the practice with future models.

As for whether it is illegal. Well I agree that is not but hey that is the title of this thread.

boylehome

07-14-05, 09:03 AM

If the charges were, "Illegal and Wrong." E* wouldn't be charging them. A long, long time ago, our local cable company charged for a line per room fee. Now that became illegal having enacted legislation. Now a person can have a cable in every room witout the fee. I had moved into a home where the owner had ran cable to every room. When I activated the cable service and told the installer which rooms I wanted cable, the installer actually cut sections of the other cables shortening them so they couldn't connet to where they used to meet at the junction.

The same was true with the telephone company. The rule was one line per phone, period.

What should be illegal is the restriction to have no more than six activated receivers in a single family dwelling. I think that our congressmen and legislators could get some milage out of this issue and make it better for US citizens.

Bill R

07-14-05, 10:14 AM

The same was true with the telephone company. The rule was one line per phone, period.

You don't have that quite right; there was never a rule of one line per phone (or one phone per line). What was true was that all extention phones had to be installed and rented from the phone company (you could NOT own or install your own equipment). Latter that rule changed to allow you to own and add equipment (like answering machines and extention phones) but all equipment had to be registered with the phone company and most companies charged you a fee for each addition piece of equipment you had on the line (usually something a little less than the fee that they charged for renting a phone from them; in the case of my local phone company the cost to rent a phone from them was $1.25 a month). All this changed in the early 80s and and all the fees for your own equipment were dropped. Despite the telephone industry's hype that the country's phone system would crash (because of incomputable equipment) that didn't happen.

boylehome

07-14-05, 10:38 AM

You don't have that quite right; there was never a rule of one line per phone (or one phone per line). What was true was that all extention phones had to be installed and rented from the phone company (you could NOT own or install your own equipment).
You may be correct as it was a additional charge for the second phone at the cost for the phone line X 2 (apples to oranges :) ). I'm referring back to the 50's/60's and party lines were were common. In the mid 60's into the 70's extention's were becoming more predominate and tolerated by the service provider at an additional expense but with lots of restrictions. The point is that sometimes business rules and practices go beyond what is reasonable, hence legislation to make change for the better. If you want additional information about this phone company and it's practices, I can PM it to you so not to get off track of the point of this thread.

the_bear

07-14-05, 10:42 AM

Am I the only one that believes prices should be determined by supply and demand?

HDMe

07-14-05, 12:52 PM

Am I the only one that believes prices should be determined by supply and demand?

Nope... Supposedly in a capitalistic economy, supply and demand are exactly what determine the prices... I find it funny sometimes how people want to brag about being in a free country, then want to price-fix things.

Legislation to fix prices causes as much problems as it helps. The phone company, for instance, regularly points to FCC regulations that "require" them to charge a particular fee... when the reality is the FCC just said they can charge it... so the phone company puts it on the bill as an FCC mandated fee and most folks are none the wiser.

Perhaps a bad/limited example... but I find we try and be "free" when it suits us... then we want non-capitalistic controls in place when we think that would suit us better. We can't make up our minds what kind of country we want to live in sometimes.

socceteer

07-14-05, 01:10 PM

Nope... Supposedly in a capitalistic economy, supply and demand are exactly what determine the prices... I find it funny sometimes how people want to brag about being in a free country, then want to price-fix things.

Legislation to fix prices causes as much problems as it helps. The phone company, for instance, regularly points to FCC regulations that "require" them to charge a particular fee... when the reality is the FCC just said they can charge it... so the phone company puts it on the bill as an FCC mandated fee and most folks are none the wiser.

Perhaps a bad/limited example... but I find we try and be "free" when it suits us... then we want non-capitalistic controls in place when we think that would suit us better. We can't make up our minds what kind of country we want to live in sometimes.

I hear you, and I agree that we want and should have free market until they become a monopoly and at that time the government needs to step in and control abuse. That is how our democrazy works (cable and Satellite are getting close to becoming a monopoly)

BobaBird

07-14-05, 02:00 PM

Am I the only one that believes prices should be determined by supply and demand?No, but that's not really the question here. Companies setting a price for anything and everything was a factor in the creation of the FTC, FDA, SEC, NHTSA, BBB and other agencies and organizations whose main focus is consumer protection. Not so much protection from high prices (a free and informed market should correct that) but from unfair business practices, fraudulent advertising, and unsafe and/or ineffective products. The right to charge a price carries with it an obligation to provide something in return. Dish's claim that DVR is a service is the modern consumer fraud equivalent of the cure-all claims of snake oil.

ekammerzelt

07-14-05, 03:19 PM

The right to charge a price carries with it an obligation to provide something in return. Dish's claim that DVR is a service is the modern consumer fraud equivalent of the cure-all claims of snake oil.

Amen.
A-Fricken-Men.

tsmacro

07-14-05, 05:17 PM

No, but that's not really the question here. Companies setting a price for anything and everything was a factor in the creation of the FTC, FDA, SEC, NHTSA, BBB and other agencies and organizations whose main focus is consumer protection. Not so much protection from high prices (a free and informed market should correct that) but from unfair business practices, fraudulent advertising, and unsafe and/or ineffective products. The right to charge a price carries with it an obligation to provide something in return. Dish's claim that DVR is a service is the modern consumer fraud equivalent of the cure-all claims of snake oil.

Dish has decided that those of us who chose to have one of their newer model DVR's will pay $4.98 a month. If you don't like it get your TV programming elsewhere it's really that simple. This is not some big ethical and/or moral issue or debate no matter how much some people want to make it. Even if you rationalize that use of a DVR is somehow not really technically a service than can be charged for, the bottom line is that it doesn't matter. I mean come on, what do you expect, for Dish to decide that for some reason decide you're right and just stop charging the fee? :lol: Please Dish can rationalize too, i'm sure from their end it would be that DVR's cost them more to make and maintain and therefore the reason for the fee. But even if they did do away with that fee, it's not like you'd be paying any less because there'd just a price increase for the monthly service to make up for the loss of the fee. Would you be happier then, because at then at least the pricing would somehow be more "honest"? :lol: Once again bottom line you want a newer Dish DVR, you pay $4.98. Don't like it go elsewhere. And if enough people do Dish will re-structure their pricing so there's no longer a seperate fee for it. That's the only thing that will change the status quo, ridiculous talk about being illegal, immoral and/or unethical only makes you look foolish and falls on deaf ears.

the_bear

07-14-05, 05:27 PM

cable and Satellite are getting close to becoming a monopoly

Last time a I checked TV content was a competitive industry. What is it that gives Dish an unfair advantage over Direct or Cable?

I do agree that it would be more clear to customers if Dish categorized the DVR fee as an equipment rental, rather than a service. When you buy a DVR outright, Dish loses money on the initial sale, so customers are still somewhat renting.

garypen

07-14-05, 06:02 PM

Dish has decided that those of us who chose to have one of their newer model DVR's will pay $4.98 a month. If you don't like it get your TV programming elsewhere it's really that simple. That's the key right there. Everybody needs to vote with their wallets.

You won't believe how easy it is to switch.

Evil Capserian

07-14-05, 07:29 PM

Ok this thread has outlived its usefulness, time to close please.

daleles

07-14-05, 07:32 PM

Consider this, I have a DVD Recorder with a 160 gig hard drive. With the software that comes with it I can pause live TV as well. I can also record, edit, (like remove footage from a segment) and watch another program or DVD while I am recording. This is no charge for this. You buy the unit and the software is included.

daleles

AppliedAggression

07-15-05, 08:38 AM

How much did that cost you? The reason the older DVRs don't have DVRs fees is because of two reasons. Firstly, the fee didn't exist when they sold the boxes, so to add it afterward would cause lots of upset customers. The second reason is cost, owners of the 501/508 box most likely paid $300 or more for them. How much did your 510 / 522 cost? Probably nothing. It's alot more appealing to new customers when they get something free. Blame the customer, not Dish.

Neil Derryberry

07-15-05, 09:04 AM

Cholly

07-15-05, 11:09 AM

I just stumbled on this thread, and decided to add my own $5.98 worth. :D
* Dish has the right to charge the fee, so they do. Just as an auto repair shop has the right to charge $70 per hour for service (labor).
* Now that I'm on cable instead of Dish, I have an HD DVR. Time Warner charges me a fee for it.
* Although I am not charged additional fees for additional outlets in my home, I am charged $7.98 a month for each additional set top box to receive digital cable at those outlets.
* I don't own ANY of the boxes, and cannot.
* I do own a Series 2 Tivo DVR. I had the choice of paying $12.95 a month for the privilege of using it, or $299 for the lifetime of the unit (not my lifetime -- if it goes belly up after a year, I'm SOL).
* If I were to install a second TiVo, it would cost me an additional $6 a month.
* Right now, I could get a refurbished 40 hour Series 2 TiVo for free, BUT I'd be required to pay the full service fee.

There are pro's and con's to every service. You get what you pay for. DirecTV and Dish have different service models, just as the cable industry does. DirecTV chose to use outside providers for their receivers and to TiVo for their DVR technology. Dish has done this only to a limited extent, and then chose to go their own way after failing to come to an agreement with TiVo. Remember that DirecTV had two huge cash cows during its early years (GM and Hughes). Dish had/has Charlie Ergen ;)
Both services spend huge amounts of money in order to provide service (satellites, earth stations, etc.). Cable companies spend quite a bit on infrastructure as well.
At least, we don't have to pay license fees for each TV we own. :hurah:

AllieVi

07-15-05, 11:48 AM

If you want the DVR, pay the fee, if you don't want it, don't pay the fee. There are other options. Get over it, suck it up, and stop whining like little girls.Agreed.

It's a business arrangement between customers and DISH. DISH offers service and sets the price. We have the option of accepting or not and they're not willing to negotiate. Those are the terms. Take them or leave for other options as SAEMike suggests.

DISH and other companies don't have to be fair or even reasonable. Competition will determine if their choices make sense.

socceteer

07-15-05, 12:50 PM

Agreed.

DISH and other companies don't have to be fair or even reasonable. Competition will determine if their choices make sense.
I agree ....even though I think they are charging too much for the service....Nothing will happen unless competition dives the prices down and I do not see that happening in the near future

unr1

07-18-05, 08:51 PM

I agree ....even though I think they are charging too much for the service....Nothing will happen unless competition dives the prices down and I do not see that happening in the near futureWell, then you're not very foresighted.

If you think people are going to put up with DVR fees for years to come, you've underestimated the public.

zmark

07-19-05, 03:42 AM

If you think people are going to put up with DVR fees for years to come, you've underestimated the public.
The public are alot stupider than you think. Right now, they're being conditioned to accept DVR fees. Name one cable or satellite service that doesn't have some kind of DVR fee for their latest equipment. The MPEG4 transition will make all current fee-free DVRs obsolete.

People place too much faith in competition. In this industry, there is a significant cost in swithcing providers. You can't switch providers on a whim; you have to replace equipment, repoint dishes, etc. The providers know this, and rely on it to keep their customers inline while they slowly screw them out of more money. Small slow increments, slow enough for the other providers to play "catch-up" and raise their rates as well. As long as the cost of each price hike is less than the pain of swithcing, customer will stay on, grumble, and pay it.

BobaBird

07-19-05, 05:15 AM

I just stumbled on this thread, and decided to add my own $5.98 worth. :DYou're obviously doing this "just because you can." ;) I'll address a few of your points and lead that to further discussion :hair: of some previous points that have been made frequently and sometimes not so civilly.

* Dish has the right to charge the fee, so they do. Just as an auto repair shop has the right to charge $70 per hour for service (labor).The right to charge is not the same as the right to set a price. The repair shop provides a mechanic and use of a repair bay, hoist and tools. What equivalent labor and/or use of infrastructure is involved in the use of a Dish DVR? That question was asked early in the thread and has yet to be answered.* Now that I'm on cable instead of Dish, I have an HD DVR. Time Warner charges me a fee for it. ...
* I don't own ANY of the boxes, and cannot.Lease fees are different from usage fees. Whether the Dish DVR is owned or leased has no bearing on the DVR fee.* I do own a Series 2 Tivo DVR. I had the choice of paying $12.95 a month for the privilege of using it, or $299 for the lifetime of the unit ... .The lifetime option may be a gamble but it's also a great advantage for the owner who expects the device and the company to be around past the break-even point. Dish's fee is sometimes rationalized as subsidizing lower up-front costs but with no lump-sum option that "subsidy" never ends. The fee for a SA TiVo is not just for the privilege. While the fee may be presented as being for DVR it is actually a subscription to the guide and to cover the cost of the phone calls needed for the DVR to retrieve it. I suppose TiVo's misidentification of the service they offer could be the root cause of so many people believing Dish's fee is acceptable.

Public perception: TiVo=DVR, TiVo=fee, therefore DVR=fee.
DISH: "We have a DVR. We're better because we have no fee. Look at how many people think they're paying TiVo for DVR or would but already have Dish. Our DVRs from the 510 on will also have a fee."

The other is the repeated use of the near-oxymoron phrase "DVR service." Honest people are willing to pay for services performed for them. Dish claims the right to call anything a "service" but their DVRs require no additional "Work done for others ..." (dictionary.com). I just debated this point with a friend who mistakenly asked what I am typing. He is of the opinion that "if it works it must be a service and Dish can charge whatever they want." He couldn't accept that a service requires external effort or infrastructure but also couldn't come up with an example of a fee for nothing. His best point was that the fee could be considered to be for on-going support and development (he doesn't realize that continuing R&D after release is Dish SOP also for non-DVRs). I say that is built into the higher price or longer commitment. Neither of us came away convinced.There are pro's and con's to every service. You get what you pay for.The first part is certainly true, the second is also but is being debated because it appears we're getting nothing. Some of us are jumping up and down about it while others call us "whiners," say "just switch" or ridicule anyone who dares question what Dish puts on a bill. Between those with the latter attitude, and those like myself who pay (even if under protest), I don't see the market making the correction. It may take something like a cease and desist order from a state AG. If that should happen to lead to "more honest pricing" is that such a bad thing? I pay my share but since this is "only TV" I feel no need or social obligation to pay others' share too.

I will not be switching providers because Dish is still the best choice for me.Technically, since the DVRs are able to see the 9 day guide instead of just the 2 day guide, ... The service/software you are paying for is basically the guide more than anything else.This is certainly true though in the days of the 501/508 the lack of a fee was a selling point used by Dish. Now that they have become "the other guys" they charge more (for 2+ DVRs, violation of RCA Pt F) but provide less (DirecTiVo EPG adds more detail, not just more days). As others have stated this is likely based more on what the market will bear (because they can) than on their actual expenses.

derwin0

07-19-05, 07:29 AM

What equivalent labor and/or use of infrastructure is involved in the use of a Dish DVR? That question was asked early in the thread and has yet to be answered.
And was answered. As I said before, the extra labor and/or infrastructure is the building and maintaining of the 9-day guide at 110.

cdru

07-19-05, 08:00 AM

I hear you, and I agree that we want and should have free market until they become a monopoly and at that time the government needs to step in and control abuse. That is how our democrazy works (cable and Satellite are getting close to becoming a monopoly)Monopolies aren't illegal. Using a monopoly in an anticompetitive behavior to squash competition is. Charging a fee for a DVR isn't an abuse because there are alternatives. It just so happens that those alternatives also charge a fee for a DVR in some form or another.

Think about it... IF they keep introducing new technology, and they have a bunch of old receivers in stock... suddenly people want the new receivers and not the old ones... and there are supply problems with the new ones and they have to turn people away, meanwhile they lose more money on the old ones sitting in the warehouse.Since all the fee-less receivers are SD and the new technology is HD, it's a moot point. By the time that SD programming is switched over to MPEG4, if ever, the electronic life of a 50x/721/DishPlayer DVR will long have been outlived.

Well, then you're not very foresighted.

If you think people are going to put up with DVR fees for years to come, you've underestimated the public.Please, the public as a whole is unintelligent and will gladly take it up the *censored*. A $5 no one cares about. Look at all the people that for years payed for a CATV converter that they didn't need. I remember seeing my parents cable bill when I was young and seeing a charge on there for something like $.54 for a remote rental. Sure everyone wants to pay less for everything, but most people will complain to themselves as they quickly write out the check at the end of the month for service.

AllieVi

07-19-05, 08:34 AM

Am I the only one that believes prices should be determined by supply and demand?No, you're not. Since virtually everyone has at least two choices (DISH and DirecTV) and most have a third (cable), competition is alive and well. If it made financial sense to do so, one of the satellite companies would reduce/eliminate the fee and siphon customers from the other. The fact that it hasn't happened tells me that the time is not yet right. Maybe it will happen in the future based on supply and demand. We'll have to wait and see...

garypen

07-19-05, 12:18 PM

In this industry, there is a significant cost in swithcing providers. You can't switch providers on a whim; you have to replace equipment, repoint dishes, etc. Actually, it's a piece of cake to switch. The providers use a perception that it is difficult. But, it is actually no problem at all.

The cable guy comes and hooks up your new service. Voila. Or, you order DirecTV directly from D* or a retailer, and they install it. Voila.

In the case of cable, there is zero upfront cost, including HD DVR. In the case of D* it is zero or little cost for most systems including dual-tuner DVR's, with additional cost for HD.

I encourage people to switch if they are unhappy with the products or services of one provider. Just don't cancel your current provider until you know you are happay with the new one. Sometimes the grass is not greener. In my case, though, it was not only greener, but thicker, and smelled better too.

garypen

07-19-05, 12:22 PM

No, you're not. Since virtually everyone has at least two choices (DISH and DirecTV) and most have a third (cable), competition is alive and well. If it made financial sense to do so, one of the satellite companies would reduce/eliminate the fee and siphon customers from the other. The fact that it hasn't happened tells me that the time is not yet right. Maybe it will happen in the future based on supply and demand. We'll have to wait and see...D* already has a lower priced DVR fee by only charging per household vs. Dish's per-receiver fee. D* is not taking advantage of a huge marketing opportunity here by not advertising this fact. (They are also not taking advantage of the FCC rules that allow them to offer Superstations. Many people stay with E* for that alone!)

zmark

07-20-05, 01:58 AM

Actually, it's a piece of cake to switch. The providers use a perception that it is difficult. But, it is actually no problem at all.

The cable guy comes and hooks up your new service. Voila. Or, you order DirecTV directly from D* or a retailer, and they install it. Voila.

That should read.

"The cable guy shows up whever he feels like it or calls to cancel, forcing me to take another day off of work. Satellite installers are no better. And when he finally does show up, he'll do a half-assed job that I'll have to fix later on."

That's the perception I get not from the providers, but from reading this forum.

garypen

07-20-05, 01:04 PM

That should read.

words words blah blah.No. It should read the way I wrote it, as that is what happened. That was the whole point of the post comparing perception to reality.

garypen

07-20-05, 01:09 PM

Ok this thread has outlived its usefulness, time to close please.Quite frankly, the mods here have been way too quick closing threads arouind here lately, especially the newer ones. It's like they're enjoying this newly acquired power and strength over others, even if it's only in this quark-sized world, while they remain feeble and weak in the real world.

What diff does it make how long a thread goes? What harm does it do? If people are still posting, it means it is of some interest to somebody. If people don't wanna read it, don't click on it and don't sub to it. Simple.

Ron Barry

07-20-05, 02:45 PM

Quite frankly, the mods here have been way too quick closing threads arouind here lately, especially the newer ones. It's like they're enjoying this newly acquired power and strength over others, even if it's only in this quark-sized world, while they remain feeble and weak in the real world.

What diff does it make how long a thread goes? What harm does it do? If people are still posting, it means it is of some interest to somebody. If people don't wanna read it, don't click on it and don't sub to it. Simple.

Newer Mods or Newer Threads? If you mean newer mods this would refer to me, and guess what.. I have personally closed less then 5 threads since I have been here if I recall. If you are referring to new threads, well yes we have been more aggressive in reacting to the increased level of insluting bashing posts with no other purpose contained in them.

I know you are not a big fan of moderation and that personal insults and sarcastics digs should be cool in this quark-sized world, but other people find them insulting and offensive and would rather not have to deal with them. By the way, in the real world a lot of people don't appreciate it either. Contrary to what some may believe, this is not a play ground to launch personal insluts, and vandictive sarcasim as a form of enjoyment. As to answer your question in relation to me personaly(Can't speak for other mods): No this is not some power trip I am, just trying to enforce the rules stated in the link above.

As to the personal sarcastic comment directed towards the mods, You don't know how we remain in our personal lives as I don't yours, so making a statement like that has no basis in fact and is just some feeble attempt at an insult.

As to closing the thread. I will take a read and see if it warrents it.

.... Took a look .... I don't see any reason to close it.....

AllieVi

07-20-05, 06:19 PM

D* already has a lower priced DVR fee by only charging per household vs. Dish's per-receiver fee. D* is not taking advantage of a huge marketing opportunity here by not advertising this fact. (They are also not taking advantage of the FCC rules that allow them to offer Superstations. Many people stay with E* for that alone!)Good point.

People choose a provider based on more than just the DVR fee. It's the entire package - beauty marks, warts and all. The same is true of everything we buy. "Car A" has a bigger engine, but "Car B" handles better and "Car C" gets better mileage. Decisions, decisions.

If/when DISH perceives the current cost structure is not in their best interests, they'll make a change.

welchwarlock

07-20-05, 11:52 PM

The DVR service is provided by having a Hard Disk in the unit, which I purchased (Including the software to talk to it). Charging a fee for the DVR "Service" should be illegal. The Unit can operate without receiving data from Dish Network; i.e. they do not provide any Service that deals with the DVR. I should be able to charge Dish for storing data on my hard drive...a "Purchase History Storage Fee".

This fee is simply as ridiculus as if the phone company started charging you an "Answering Machine / Voice Mail Fee", for the answering machine / Voice Mail unit that you purchased and hooked up to the phone line.

But since dish is charging me a Fee to use the equipment that I own, what happens when the Hard Drive dies? I suspect that Dish will have to repair it out of their pocket, since they have been charging me to use my own Hard Disk for all this time.

In fact, it would make everyone happier if they would simply call it a "Hard Disk Insurance" fee, and like driving a car, you have to buy the insurance whether you want it or not....

Any Rumors on when they will start charging the $5 remote control usage fee? If you don't pay the fee, you have to operate the unit from the buttons provided...

Food for Thought,
WW

HDMe

07-21-05, 12:27 AM

The DVR service is provided by having a Hard Disk in the unit, which I purchased (Including the software to talk to it). Charging a fee for the DVR "Service" should be illegal.

I don't like all the fees... even the fees that I fortunately am not currently paying, but might have to pay in the future if I upgrade receivers.

BUT... as far as I can tell they are not illegal... AND I would say that they should NOT be illegal.

People in the US (and I am in the US, born and raised) like to say "let me run my life and make my own choices"... but then like to pass laws that prevent other people from doing things that we don't like them doing. So which is it?

I don't like the fees... but there are lots of things I don't like... and if everything I didn't like was illegal there would be a lot of crazy laws on the books, moreso than there already are!

Hey... what about worrying about the murderers and rapists before encouraging folks to pass a law about PVR fees. Seriously... there are far worse offenses going on in this country and the world that deserve way more conversation than this particular topic.

I don't like fees... but they aren't illegal. TV isn't a requirement, and if I didn't want to pay the fees, I could choose not to watch or switch providers. Some fees I might be willing to protest or sign a petition against... but laws? No way. It isn't *that* important.

garypen

07-21-05, 12:55 AM

I have personally closed less then 5 threads since I have been here if I recall. That's actually quiyt a lot for one mod in such a short time.
As to the personal sarcastic comment directed towards the mods, You don't know how we remain in our personal lives as I don't yours, so making a statement like that has no basis in fact and is just some feeble attempt at an insult. Actually, the most sarcastic poster here, and the one who gets the most personal iin his insulting comments, is a mod. I don't wanna name names, of course. Let's just refer to him as "Nick Doe".

BobaBird

07-21-05, 01:06 AM

... but then like to pass laws that prevent other people from doing things that we don't like them doing.Some laws are just that (no victim other than the uppity offendee who sponsored it), but the type that would apply here is one preventing others from doing things to us. But I agree that no law is desirable or even necessary. What's going on should fall under existing consumer protections. We just need to get someone to examine the issue close enough to smell the shinola. That's going to take some education given how the acceptance of TiVo's legitimate charge for the service elements of their offering has morphed into acceptance of DVR fees for features without service.

The related issue of multiple DVR fees is more clear-cut and even in Dish's own words. Summarizing that portion of my earlier post: the Residential Customer Agreement (http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/aboutus/RCA/index.shtml) Part F says, "Each additional receiver would be authorized to receive the same Services as your initial receiver." I say DVR is not a service but Dish says it is so it should be covered by the Addl Rcvr fee. I only pay 1 DVR fee so I can't protest the RCA violation myself. Has anyone else?

welchwarlock

07-21-05, 09:43 AM

I don't like fees... but they aren't illegal. TV isn't a requirement, and if I didn't want to pay the fees, I could choose not to watch or switch providers. Some fees I might be willing to protest or sign a petition against... but laws? No way. It isn't *that* important.
Perhaps it is. What they are doing is called a PROPERTY TAX. Only the government should be allowed to impose PROPERTY TAXES. They are acting like a taxing authority.....if your HDD is less than a certain size, no TAX applies...if it is larger than a certian size you have to pay the TAX. It should be illegal.

WW

KingLoop

07-21-05, 10:55 AM

The DVR service is provided by having a Hard Disk in the unit, which I purchased...

But since dish is charging me a Fee to use the equipment that I own...

Well, while you may have "purchased" your DVR, Dish Network subsidized that purchase with their own money. Buy a SA DVR somewhere else that is comperable and how much does it cost. (Include the fee for TiVo models, which cost $96 more a year for the same "service" you can get from E*) Dish subsidized the purchase of your DVR and accordingly charges you a DVR fee to use it. It is their choice whatever the reason. It is your choice to buy a differant DVR from someone else or subscribe to a differant service. If you hate it so much make a differant choice rather than complaining about the choices you make.

tsmacro

07-21-05, 12:32 PM

I can't believe all the whining going on in this thread about a $4.98 charge. Personally I feel there's probably nothing that I can spend that kind of money on that I get so much use and enjoyment out of.

Ron Barry

07-21-05, 12:45 PM

HDMe

07-21-05, 02:06 PM

Perhaps it is. What they are doing is called a PROPERTY TAX. Only the government should be allowed to impose PROPERTY TAXES. They are acting like a taxing authority.....if your HDD is less than a certain size, no TAX applies...if it is larger than a certian size you have to pay the TAX. It should be illegal.

WW

I don't see how it equates as a tax either. Don't misunderstand me though, so I'll keep saying it... I don't like several of the fees... but from a business side of things, if they want to charge it and enough people are ok paying it... then it is a business winning decision for them and a no-brainer.

How come my local Target superstore sells Del Monte canned vegetables for 62 cents per can, but the Food Lion a couple of blocks down the street sells the same cans for almost a dollar? It should be illegal to sell the exact same product for a different price, no?

Satellite TV is a luxury, and as such I don't believe it ever should be regulated like say our electricity and phone have been.

Businesses can charge whatever they want, and we can pay what we feel they are worth... and if those happen to match then we have a deal.

Dish in this case isn't sneaking a fee past you after you sign a contract. These are fees that are up front when you make a commitment or buy a receiver from them... so they aren't changing the rules for you after the fact. Dish usually grandfathers old plans/receivers so IF you weren't paying a fee when they started having them, then you don't pay one now. This is really why we have some older receivers without DVR fees... they are playing by their rules and not sneaking a fee into an existing customer who already has a non-fee-DVR.

I don't like the fees... but there's nothing illegal about them.

The Dish receiver is worthless without service provided by the Dish satellites in orbit... so to say simply that the hard drive in the receiver functions without any service is misleading. True a 501 and a 522 really are mostly the same receiver except for the dual-receiver and larger hard drive of the 522... but Dish decided they wanted to start charging more for their DVRs per month and didn't penalize older customers by suddenly introducing a fee on their existing receivers.

Seems like Dish did the fairest thing they could. When they started the fees, it was only on the new receivers... so you could get an older non-fee one with less features and less storage... or a newer one with a fee.

Lots of things in life cost more to operate than they did to purchase... I have to buy stuff for my car all the time... did the GM dealer rip me off by not telling me gas prices would go up? I buy batteries for all sorts of things... and electricity to plug other things in at my house... it goes on and on.

garypen

07-21-05, 06:33 PM

Well, while you may have "purchased" your DVR, Dish Network subsidized that purchase with their own money. Buy a SA DVR somewhere else that is comperable and how much does it cost. (Include the fee for TiVo models, which cost $96 more a year for the same "service" you can get from E*) Dish subsidized the purchase of your DVR and accordingly charges you a DVR fee to use it. It is their choice whatever the reason. It is your choice to buy a differant DVR from someone else or subscribe to a differant service. If you hate it so much make a differant choice rather than complaining about the choices you make.Actually, the 2-tuner DirecTivo costsway less to purchase than even a single-tuner Dish DVR. And, DirecTV only charges one DVR fee per account. That makes their Tivo much cheaper than Dish's for both upfront AND monthly cost. Plus, they've got that whole "works properly" thing, which matters to some people.

BobaBird

07-22-05, 06:33 AM

(Include the fee for TiVo models, which cost $96 more a year for the same "service" you can get from E*)Not true, as I explained in my response to Cholly (post #93).Dish subsidized the purchase of your DVR and accordingly charges you a DVR fee to use it.Dish can set whatever price/commitment requirement they wish. If it's "too low" that's not my fault. My only say is to accept or decline. If their goal is on-going added income, they should make the DVRs lease-only. Not purchase and a disguised lease fee - one or the other. At least offer a lump-sum option. I'm willing to pay what's fair if I know when it will end.
The Dish receiver is worthless without service provided by the Dish satellites in orbit... so to say simply that the hard drive in the receiver functions without any service is misleading.We're all paying for programming without which any Dish receiver is worthless, hard drive or not. That programming includes an electronic guide which happens to make it easier to create a timer and allows receivers with NBR to do automatic searches. Dish extended the guide to 9 days and proudly proclaimed there was no charge for it (until the 510). What other service are you referring to? If the longer guide itself is the service, it might be worth $5 if it was more detailed like the one for DirecTiVos, also, is it waived for those in Hawaii who can't see 110?but Dish decided they wanted to start charging more for their DVRs per month and didn't penalize older customers by suddenly introducing a fee on their existing receivers.Gotta give them credit for the second part of that statement.

derwin0

07-22-05, 09:19 AM

And, DirecTV only charges one DVR fee per account.
then the csolution is simple, if the fee per DVR reciever is so bad, switch to directv

garypen

07-22-05, 10:17 AM

then the csolution is simple, if the fee per DVR reciever is so bad, switch to directvBingo! That's the only thing that will cause change. When people leave because of this fee, or any of pile of legitimate reasons, maybe Dish will take notice, and get their sh** together.

Personally, I switched to Comcast for now. It made more sense than D* at this time. But, once D* & E* get their new bandwidth fully functional, withe the combo of new TP's and MPEG4, I will make a decision on whther to switch again. The decision will be all the more difficult, because my local Comcast will have more bandwidth by then, as well, plus all the channels will be digital.

Decisions...decisions.

tsmacro

07-22-05, 01:05 PM

tsmacro.. I don't think it is so much the $4.98 as much as the per receiver cost. If you have 3 DVRs in your household that would be 15 dollars additional per month. That is rather step. I personally don't mind the 4.98 per month. I do mind it per receiver. Ofcourse there are people that feel any fee is wrong.

I can understand that, for that reason I would never have 3 Dish DVR's, or probably even two for that matter. The funny thing about that is that I know people who switched to Dish from Direct because of their additional receiver charge for every TV so you'd think Dish would be more sensitive to such things. But I still feel this an economic issue and not a legal, ethical or moral issue.

KingLoop

07-22-05, 03:22 PM

(Include the fee for TiVo models, which cost $96 more a year for the same "service" you can get from E*)

Not true, as I explained in my response to Cholly (post #93).

The lifetime option may be a gamble but it's also a great advantage for the owner who expects the device and the company to be around past the break-even point. Dish's fee is sometimes rationalized as subsidizing lower up-front costs but with no lump-sum option that "subsidy" never ends. The fee for a SA TiVo is not just for the privilege. While the fee may be presented as being for DVR it is actually a subscription to the guide and to cover the cost of the phone calls needed for the DVR to retrieve it. I suppose TiVo's misidentification of the service they offer could be the root cause of so many people believing Dish's fee is acceptable.

The challenge is that (to my knowledge) TiVo doesn't make a SA Dual Tuner. You can of course get one if you are a DTV customer but then you'd still have to fork out at least $50 more for your second set to get the DVR functionality on it. No company makes a tuner that is comperable to the 522, 625, or 942. They just aren't out there. Not with similar functionality as dual mode. If you want Dish Network programming and you want to record something other than what you are watching, you need a 522/625 or a 721. There are no other practical options. If you want cable or DTV, of course you have options.

WhiteForMe

07-22-05, 09:00 PM

I have one 522 DVR on my account(that I own), The bill has a line that says "DVR fee $ 0.00" They were trying to sneak in some "Program Acces Fee" for 4.99. I had to call about that one, said it was for a phone line. They had told me before I didnt need the phone line with AEP, So they credited my account for that fee, and took it off.
So what gets you the DVR fee ?
As soon as I see my bill DVR fee change from 0.00 to 5 bucks, is the day I call and de-sub it.

Ron Barry

07-22-05, 11:06 PM

Since you have AEP you don't get charge a DVR fee. Drop AEP and you will see a DVR fee.

WhiteForMe

07-22-05, 11:43 PM

Well thanks for that info RB. I was wondering what all the talk was about! My sat bill is next highest to my house payment :) So it's nice to know that dvr fee wont be sneaking in there.

BobaBird

07-23-05, 04:46 PM

The challenge is that (to my knowledge) TiVo doesn't make a SA Dual Tuner. You can of course get one if you are a DTV customer but then you'd still have to fork out at least $50 more for your second set to get the DVR functionality on it.I believe you're correct about no SA dual-tuner TiVo and, of course, about the usefulness of the Dish dual output receivers. I'm not familiar with the $50 you refer to but it makes sense that more functions = higher price.

My main point was that the argument or perception that "TiVo has a fee so it's OK for Dish to have one too" is not valid because Dish does not provide the service that TiVo does (some would add that TiVo works better but that's also not a reason for a fee). SA TiVo requires a guide subscription for the NBR features to work and is charged per DVR because each has to phone in
The DirecTiVo guide has more program detail in addition to being longer than the standard D* guide. They are selling a different product, not just giving a bit more of the same. This increases the chance of success with NBR and manual searches when looking for favorite actors and directors. DirecTiVo gets the guide from the satellite; no phone call is required so the fee is reduced and is charged per account. (There may still be phone calls to report ratings but those are much shorter w/o the guide d/l.)

KingLoop

07-25-05, 09:11 AM

I'm not familiar with the $50 you refer...

My main point was that the argument or perception that "TiVo has a fee so it's OK for Dish to have one too" is not valid because Dish does not provide the service that TiVo does (some would add that TiVo works better but that's also not a reason for a fee).

The $50 I was talking about was the purchase of a 2nd TiVo...

I agree that the DVR fee kind of sucks, and I also agree that it seems people in general like the TiVo better than any other DVR.

My point was that if you want the functionality of the 522/625 or 942, and you want E* programming you have no choice but to pay the fee. The closest you could get with SD receivers would be say (2) 311s and (2) SA TiVos on the same TV. Even if you paid the lifetime fee You'd still be out $5/mth for the additional outlet. Plus you'd be out of pocket for the TiVos. (Me, I like E*s guide better than D*s.)

Evil Capserian

07-25-05, 01:05 PM

Oh gosh, this thread is going on too long. Hey mods. time to close.

welchwarlock

07-26-05, 11:21 AM

Dish in this case isn't sneaking a fee past you after you sign a contract. These are fees that are up front when you make a commitment or buy a receiver from them... so they aren't changing the rules for you after the fact. Dish usually grandfathers old plans/receivers so IF you weren't paying a fee when they started having them, then you don't pay one now. This is really why we have some older receivers without DVR fees... they are playing by their rules and not sneaking a fee into an existing customer who already has a non-fee-DVR.

Sure they are. Purchased my 921 at Frys (Also available at CostCo) has a JVC label on it. Get it home, plug it in, call them up to switch out my active receiver ID's, now I have to pay more per month.

Again, can you imagine, you go buy a new cell phone that has built in voice mail (The phone stores the messages internally like an answering machine), then the phone company ups your rate because the cell phone has a new capability that does not actually use any resources from the cell phone company; it was inherit in the phone. It should be illegal.

WW

HDMe

07-26-05, 11:31 AM

Sure they are. Purchased my 921 at Frys (Also available at CostCo) has a JVC label on it. Get it home, plug it in, call them up to switch out my active receiver ID's, now I have to pay more per month.

So, you're saying that you called Dish to activate a receiver you purchased elsewhere... but didn't bother to read the terms and conditions for activating that receiver first?

But on a different matter... Why are you paying more for a 921? I wasn't aware that the 921 had any fees different from say an 811 as a secondary receiver.

the_bear

07-26-05, 01:18 PM

HDMe

07-26-05, 03:50 PM

Again, can you imagine, you go buy a new cell phone that has built in voice mail (The phone stores the messages internally like an answering machine), then the phone company ups your rate because the cell phone has a new capability that does not actually use any resources from the cell phone company; it was inherit in the phone. It should be illegal.WW

I forgot earlier to reply to the second part of your post... I'll grant you that I wouldn't like paying a fee that seemed to me like it was pure profit because the phone (hypothetical in your example) would have the features anyway...

But, businesses are in business (key word) to make money... If a business only charged exactly as much as their expenses were... then they would be a non-profit organization!

So, technically, all businesses that are making a profit are charging more than they have to... so they can make a profit... so by your definition, all profitable companies should be illegal.

That doesn't make any sense does it? Again, I say that if everything I didn't like was illegal, there would be a lot of crazy laws. How come some weeks I go to Target and Pepsi is $2.50 for a 12-pack of cans and other times it is $4.69 for the same 12-pack? I think it should be illegal to keep changing the price when it costs Pepsi the same amount to make it each month.

I think it should be illegal to be illegal. We should make a law that says it is illegal to break the law.

But seriously... I am tempted to think it should be illegal to think it should be illegal when it shouldn't.