Poll for 215 OTA Guide Data

[lapplegate]

Mark, Allen,

I am posting this poll in the Support Forum, to get some feedback.

It appears that 215 has had varied effects on the OTA guide data, producing various threads on this matter.

I believe one of the main purposes of a Forum such as this is to gather information to establish a root cause and eventually correct the problem.

In an attempt to get that information in one place I am posting this poll.

It is now being reported that, with 215, there are those who do not subscribe to locals now being able to get OTA guide data. This makes it seem as though it would be even easier to get guide data to those that do subscribe to locals.

So, in order to sort through just what the various OTA guide data effects have been, please respond to the poll by corresponding your answer to one of the numbered scenarios listed below.

These seem to be the most common effects, that 215 has produced:

1. Subscribe to locals, prior to 215 had some missing data, 215 did NOT fix this.

2. Subscribe to locals, prior to 215 had all guide data, 215 removed some or all data.

3. Subscribe to locals, prior to 215 had some or all missing data, 215 fixed it.

4. Do NOT subscribe to locals, with 215, I now have some or all guide data.

Maybe with enough information, Eldon can get a handle on the various OTA guide data problems and get us all on the same page.

Thanks,
Larry

[gunawo]

My mistake

[lapplegate]

Another reason for posting this poll here was to get replies, as that is just more information that can be used to help with this problem.

When 212 downloaded, I got all my guide data. 213 removed the data from 3 of the channels. 215 did not fix (or hurt) that problem.

There has got to be someone, involved with the software, that can figure out what they did on 212, 213 and 215 that would cause or correct these problems and use that information to get the data to everyone.

Of course, I still put teeth under my pillow expecting there to be a quarter in place of it the next morning. :D

[JPC]

#2

I do subscribe to locals.
I do have EPG info for the satellite SD local channels.
I do NOT have EPG guide info for the OTA HD channels.

[boylehome]

Sorry for the 2 #2s. I can't find a way to edit the poll. I think you can figure out the second #2 should be a #3.
I selected #3

[oljim]

Do not subscribe to locals, get ota from 5 DMAs , get EPG from 1 outside DMA

[revenson]

#1
I have hd ota channel info for abc and cbs always have... but had hd for fox and nbc before 213 not after and not fixed...only sd info :(

[David_Levin]

Where's option 5?

Had all my OTA guide data before, and still do now.

[lapplegate]

Where's option 5?

Had all my OTA guide data before, and still do now.

David,
For some reason the poll would only let me post 4 options (4 Max.).

I do think that "no problem" is information that is as valuable, in fixing something, as reporting the problems.

But, having been through several 921 downloads, "no problem before and no problem after" is the least likely answer. :)

[Bradtothebone]

I do not sub to LIL's. With L215, some, but not all, of my locals show up in "All Channels" list in red. The data for those same channels shows up in the OTA guide now, which is great, and much appreciated. I have no idea why they would add data for some locals, but not all of them. I am in the Kansas City DMA.

Brad

[bryan92]

I subscribe to locals and now have none in OTA after update. I have done a soft reboot. Would a power plug help? I dont want to give bad feedback if I havent done everything that I could to fix it.

[lapplegate]

I subscribe to locals and now have none in OTA after update. I have done a soft reboot. Would a power plug help? I dont want to give bad feedback if I havent done everything that I could to fix it.

bryan92,

I have done power plug pull, power button and smart card boots. Also I have reset to defaults, done check switch, unchecked off air locals, recheck off air, removed local digitals and re-added them through a scan and manually.

I have done pretty much every combination of these things and still do not get the guide data I lost with 213.

I don't want to discourage anyone from trying to get their data, with 215, as someone might stumble onto the fix, but it seems to be up to the software guys to fix this.

[n0qcu]

Poll option 6?

I do not subscribe to locals. (Not available for subscription yet)
With 215 they now show up in guide. (red) But no info for the OTA channels. (it works correct on my 811's) So they still don't have it quit right.

[clapple]

Dish does not offer my locals. I have 215; but no OTA guide info!

[bryan92]

bryan92,

I have done power plug pull, power button and smart card boots. Also I have reset to defaults, done check switch, unchecked off air locals, recheck off air, removed local digitals and re-added them through a scan and manually.

I have done pretty much every combination of these things and still do not get the guide data I lost with 213.

I don't want to discourage anyone from trying to get their data, with 215, as someone might stumble onto the fix, but it seems to be up to the software guys to fix this.
I'll try it just so I can report that Ive done everything I can. Thanks for the reply. I was one of the happy ones before this. :(

[Michael P]

Just my luck. 215 spools when I'm in the process of moving. My 921 has been in it's box since Saturday 6/25.

I have been one of the more vocal critics to the lack of OTA data for LIL non-subscribers.

I do not sub to LIL's. With L215, some, but not all, of my locals show up in "All Channels" list in red. The data for those same channels shows up in the OTA guide now, which is great, and much appreciated. I have no idea why they would add data for some locals, but not all of them. I am in the Kansas City DMA.

Brad
It appears that they took my advice :) I requested putting the locals "in red" on non LIL subscribers in order to get the guide data onthe OTA's.

Since I'm still not hooked back up I have a question: For those of you who do not subscribe, ans are now geting the LIL's in red, did you have to change the option in the menu that turns on/off the analog stations (perhaps this is a 213 issue that was changed in 215)? Those of you who lost analog OTA's know what I'm talking about. IN 213 you had a choice of (IIRC) "Dish locals" or "OTA" for guide data. If you chose dish locals the analog OTA's disappeared from the EPG, but you got data for the digital OTA's. I need both (EPG data and analog capability), as my WB has not yet signed on digitally.

[DonLandis]

Man, you need to practice setting up a poll here before doing one. Maybe Mark can fix it for you. Your poll is such a great idea but it's implementation will not give you accurate results.

Anyway, it's too bad this L215 is so buggy for lots of people, especially with this guide for OTA. For me the only bug I saw was that when I did not get any signal from local PBS DT I did a rescan. Then all I got was analog channels. I rescanned again and got all the channels analog and Digital. Rescanned again and this time reduced the analog channels down to 2 which is tolerable. I do not want analog channels in my listing. So far, I have not been able to eliminate those 2 analog channels which are in Brown in the guide with guide data. I need to rebuild the favorites again. Later on I discovered our local PBS was simply off the air for unknown reasons.

Back to this poll, I suppose I best fit #4. I refuse to sub to LIL from Dish as I get all the channels without fuzzies free. Now I have the guide data on all the channels except those sub channels on PBS, an independent, and WB. Regarding PBS- I do get guide data on the subs with my HDTIVO but it's totally 100% inaccurate so it's pointless anyway. :)

[David K]

I subscribe to Dish locals but there given to me out of Cinci, I pull my OTA out of Dayton, didn't have guide data before 215, and still don't.

[lapplegate]

Man, you need to practice setting up a poll here before doing one. Maybe Mark can fix it for you. Your poll is such a great idea but it's implementation will not give you accurate results.

Anyway, it's too bad this L215 is so buggy for lots of people, especially with this guide for OTA. For me the only bug I saw was that when I did not get any signal from local PBS DT I did a rescan. Then all I got was analog channels. I rescanned again and got all the channels analog and Digital. Rescanned again and this time reduced the analog channels down to 2 which is tolerable. I do not want analog channels in my listing. So far, I have not been able to eliminate those 2 analog channels which are in Brown in the guide with guide data. I need to rebuild the favorites again. Later on I discovered our local PBS was simply off the air for unknown reasons.

Back to this poll, I suppose I best fit #4. I refuse to sub to LIL from Dish as I get all the channels without fuzzies free. Now I have the guide data on all the channels except those sub channels on PBS, an independent, and WB. Regarding PBS- I do get guide data on the subs with my HDTIVO but it's totally 100% inaccurate so it's pointless anyway. :)

Don,
Your right I need some poll lessons. I was hoping Mark or Allen could step in, since I could not find a way to edit the poll. Practice? From the looks of it this IS the practice. :) At this point accuracy is not as much a goal, as to getting as much info in one spot as possible. Every little comment adds to getting a bigger picture of why 215 effected the guide data so many different ways, for different individuals.

At this point it would be nice to see if it is area related, unit related or perhaps station / channel related.

I find it very interesting that you have guide data for the OTA analogs. During the course of trying everything to get the digital guide data, I did add the analogs (in brown). There was no guide data for them, even the ones that had data in the digital version.

That makes me wonder if the data is pulled more from the Dish locals instead of PSIP. I assumed that is why some are reporting the "red locals" in their guide.

At one point I was considering dropping the Dish locals to see if that was interfering with the PSIP.

At any rate, thanks for your and everyones input. It is appreciated.

Larry
Practice Poller

[bryan92]

I'll try it just so I can report that Ive done everything I can. Thanks for the reply. I was one of the happy ones before this. :(
I made it home and tried several things. I unpluged the receiver for as long as it took to put on shorts and a t-shirt. Then I deleted all the locals and rescanned them. Still have no OTA data. Dont know if it matters but I get Savannah, Georgia locals.

[4HiMarks]

I subscribe to locals. I get guide data for the ones I always did, and not for the ones I didn't, including the Baltimore DMA. But there are also some Washington, DC OTA stations I never got data for either.

-Chris

[Stingray]

With L215 I now get program information on OTA digitals for the first time.
I do subscribe to Detroit locals, and now get data for the "big 6" ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, UPN, WD. Only the PBS channel has NO data, BUT the digital OTA broadcast is always different from the SD channel anyway. :)

[DonLandis]

Larry-
I can assure you that what _I_ get is from DishNetwork subscribed service and NOT PSIP. For the reason that I am getting guide info that I know is beyond what is published from at least one of the stations and nothing from another who does not subscribe to the service, however, they are in FCC compliance and supply at minimum guide data by FCC regulation.
For those that don't understand what the above means, specifically here is a pull quote from:

http://www.digitaltelevision.com/articles/article_834.shtml

"ATSC A/65B also requires that broadcasters send populated EITs covering at least a 12 hour period. These EITs should be populated with the correct information, so that the user knows what programs are on for this 12 hour period. Also, we expect that manufacturers will have every incentive to build equipment that looks to PSIP for its basic functionality, but we will revisit the issue if necessary."

The above pull quote was obtained without author permission and is intended to be quoted as a newsworthy / educational quote in the public domain of "fair use"
provision of the US copyright act. I take full responsibility for this instance of use as in fair use and offer no express or implied permission to re-quote it as an assign.

So you see, any data in the guide that is there beyond the 12 hour mark is not in the minimum instance of the regulation but rather in the voluntary instance. Two of my local stations are just meeting the minimum at this time in their PSIP stream, therefore, I would assume that the additional information I see in my guide for these stations is from the service subscribed to by DishNetwork, namely from Tribune Media Services.

To my knowledge there is nothing in the regulation that requires a provider to supply guide data from Tribune or any other service but there is an intent or spirit of the regulation that suggests an MSO NOT filter or stop the regulated service (PSIP 12 hours) from appearing in the guide of the ATSC receivers in the selfish interest of generating sales for their paid guide service (Tribune). If DishNetwork should persist in this practice, I'm sure I will not be the only one to file a complaint with the FCC charging them with a violation of this portion of the regulation that went into effect (deadline) of February 1st 2005. :)


One more thing- The notice for this requirement gave all broadcasters and equipment manufacturers 120 days to come into compliance which had it's deadline of Feb 1st 2005. There may be some thin excuse by manufacturers to claim receivers "made" before the initial announcement that they were exempt but the 921 has a manufacturer software update capability only by their control that allows this to be brought into compliance through a software change as long as these receivers are still marketed. DishNetwork has indeed marketed and sold this 921 receiver past the announcement as well as past the 2-1-2005 deadline and, IMO, therefore, MUST make the 921 PSIP compliant by FCC regulation.

[jergenf]

Don,

That makes me wonder if the data is pulled more from the Dish locals instead of PSIP. I assumed that is why some are reporting the "red locals" in their guide.

Larry
Practice Poller
Correct the guide info that appears in red (for non-subscribers) at the high range of the guide is from dishnetwork not PSIP data from the local digital station.
It would be nice if that info could be mirrored to the actual local digital channel slots so that the guide could be used to schedule events. Regardless it's still an improvement that data is now available for non-subscribers even if though it's in the high portion of the guide.

[bbomar]

Larry-

My case is really none of the above.

I subscribe to Nashville satellite locals. Prior to L2.15 I had guide data
for all my OTA *digital* locals (I do not use OTA analog locals)
that correspond to the satellite locals . There are two Nashville locals
that Dish does not carry as LIL (PAX and a religious channel). I never had
guide data for those. None of this has changed with L2.15.

Since the OTA guide data *exactly* matches the LIL guide data out to 9
days, I agree with Don that this is not PSIP data - it is LIL guide data
copied over to the OTA local guide slot. I did not and still do not have
guide data for subchannels which generally carry weather/news for the
locals that have them.

Prior to L2.15 I had no guide data for FOX, CBS, ABC, NBC, and PBS
digital channels from Huntsville, AL, which are outside my DMA but which
I receive OTA. After L2.15 I do have guide data for these, except for
PBS. Again, no subchannel guide data but these are also weather/news
subchannels, except for FOX that carries WB as a subchannel, and PBS
which carries their SD programming as subchannel 02.

From reading the posts since L2.15, it looks to me like most of the problems
with L2.15 guide data are from LILs that are on 105 or 121, for whatever
the reason. There seem to be lots of folks that still have the guide data
for their satellite locals, but it is not being copied over to their OTA local
slots, and it was being duplicated prior to L2.15.

There is a second category of 921 customer, and I think you, Larry, are
in that situation, who lost some guide data back at L2.12 or L2.13 and
it has not returned with L2.15.

I applaud Dish for doing the right thing with guide data this time. I plan
to continue my LIL subscription for other receivers, but agree you should
not have to. I hope the problems with the guide data are easily and
quickly resolved.

[UT_Texan]

I am subscribed (mainly for non hd tvs) but for the two that get ota dt channels I get channels for San Antonio (60-80 miles away) and Houston (150-180 miles away) even though I live in Austin and am subscribed to Austin locals. Before, those channels said no info. Now I get guide data for them. The sub channels say local programming for the current 30 min or 1hr block and then after that it says no info but this is way cool I think!

[bbomar]

I have a little more information on the guide data question, particularly
for non-DMA stations. I can get two digital stations from Chattanooga, TN,
NBC (WRCB) and CBS (WDEF). I don't get guide data for either. The
Chattanooga stations are on 105 and I don't have a superdish so I'm
not really surprised.

Today I turned my rotor northeast and was able to receive two Knoxville, TN
digital stations, WB (WBXX Knoxville/Crossville) and ABC (WATE). Shortly
after scanning these in I had guide data on WBXX (9 days worth) and WBXX
also appeared in red as channel 9314. I never could get guide data on
WATE, even after doing a check switch and a power-cord reboot. When I
deleted WBXX from the OTA local channels, 9314 remained, but disappeared
after a reboot. All the Knoxville stations are on the 110 satellite which I do
receive.

From the discussion in this thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=43551
it seems certain that the guide data is from Dish, and not from PSIP.
Somehow the PSIP channel ID information is being used to link to the
corresponding Dish guide data. The Dish channel number then shows
in red in the 8000-9000 area along with guide data, which is also
mapped over to the OTA channel. This seems a good approach
for the main channel, but there appear to be a few bugs yet to work
out.

[SteveRS]

#4

[Mark Lamutt]

I've added 2 more options at the request of Eldon programmers.

[lapplegate]

I've added 2 more options at the request of Eldon programmers.

Mark,
Good to hear from you. Thank you for modifying this poll. It is good to hear Eldon is working on this.

Sorry for the lame attempt at a poll. However, there has been quite a bit of information to come out of this, and the other OTA guide data threads.

This seems to be the most widespread and varied problem. I suspect this will be a tough one for Eldon.

Guess I'm now a #5 instead of #1. I am still missing data, for the same channels, that I was before 215 (WAVE 03-01 (47), 015-01 (17) & 68-01 (38), Louisville, KY and all sub channels). I had them all prior to 212 / 213.

Is it possible that they will try to correct this problem and include the fix in the "widespread 215" release?

Thanks again,
Larry

[langlin]

I voted #1 because it was close to what I have but even the two new catagories don't fit perfectly, I had SOME data before 215 and NONE after. I lost half of my data after 212 and the rest after 215.

[lapplegate]

I voted #1 because it was close to what I have but even the two new catagories don't fit perfectly, I had SOME data before 215 and NONE after. I lost half of my data after 212 and the rest after 215.

OUCH!

[lujan]

I also voted number 1, but 5 is now the correct answer as I didn't have guide data for two of the stations prior to L215 and it remained exactly the same after. I also had all of the guide data prior to L212/L213.

[jtallon]

I couldn't find the right option in the poll. I subscribe to locals, and I had decent guide data in the prior version, with my only problems coming from a PBS station that has multiple subchannels (10-1, 10-2, etc.).

With L-215, I have lost ALL of my guide data. I deleted all of my OTA channels and timers, did a hard reboot, and re-added them, but the guide data still won't map at all.

This really sucks - I tend to watch a lot of the locals, so losing the guide data that I had a week ago is a pretty big blow to the usefulness of the DVR...

[Mark Lamutt]

If there's a fix for L215, there won't be a widespread L215 release. They'll move on to L216 for it.

[jergenf]

I've added 2 more options at the request of Eldon programmers.
Question on #4: I do not subscribe to locals but can see guide info in the high range 76XX of the guide. It's labelled as red of course and can only be seen in "All-Chan" mode. I do not have any of that info remapped in the OTA section of the guide meaning I can't use the guide itself to schedule events.

Also there's no information for subchannels, example PBS just shows the main (analog) info and not what's on the other 3 subchannels. Just mentioned that because some members stated they are receiving specific data (in the OTA section) for them as well.

[Michael P]

I do not subscribe to locals. When 215 downloaded, I got guide data for the major stations in my DMA (NBC, ABC, CBS, UPN, and Univision). As a bonus, I also got guide dat for one OOM station that I "DX'ed" recently (WPXI-DT from Pittsbugh). I had 2 other OOM stations from Youngstown in my EPG that did not get guide data (WFMJ & WYTV). The Youngstown stations are on 105 so that may be the reason I did not get the data. I also got no data for either PBS station or for the Trinity "4-plex" (TBN, Church Channel, JCTV, and Enlace TBN) WDLI-DT.

Not too long after getting 215 I started getting lock-ups. At first I was able to fix these with a front panel power button reboot, however after the 2nd day, I started getting "Hard Disk Failure" messages (in DOS-like text, not in the familliar green box). A hard reboot caused the unit to go into a lenghty diagnostic proceedure that regained full functionality (except for the fact that it gave me the factory presets and I had to rescan all the OTA's). This happened 2 days in a row. I'm at the end of my rope with 215 (and possibly with the 921).