Are locals on 105 and 121 being phased out?

[psnarula]

There seems to be a lot of talk lately about moving locals onto 129 or adding more spotbeams on 110 with the launch of Echostar X. Does anybody have any idea about the longterm future of locals on 105 or 121?

If a particular market has its locals moved from 105 to 129, would you expect them to be on both birds for some time? Or would it be an immediate switch that would require everybody to dump their superdish right away and swap it out for a dish 1000?

[James Long]

E* normally leaves channels in the 'old' location for long enough to convert all the dishes. Six months or a year would not be out of line.

The only exceptions I have seen is with moves to a primary location. If channels go from 61.5, 105, 121 or 148 to 110 I suspect the old versions to die quickly (since both SuperDishes can get 110). But moves from 61.5, 105, 121 or 148 would need a transition period so people could get the new dish.

[Link]

E* normally leaves channels in the 'old' location for long enough to convert all the dishes. Six months or a year would not be out of line.

The only exceptions I have seen is with moves to a primary location. If channels go from 61.5, 105, 121 or 148 to 110 I suspect the old versions to die quickly (since both SuperDishes can get 110). But moves from 61.5, 105, 121 or 148 would need a transition period so people could get the new dish.


Why is it that Dish has had channels located all over the place while Directv has had most of its satellites available with one outside dish except in smaller local markets where a 72.5 dish is needed??

Now Directv is adding a 5 LNB dish for HD locals--still only one dish needed while Dish still has channels scattered and may require more than one or two dishes outside.

I think it'd cost Dish quite a bit adding new dishes for people or swapping old ones out for new ones all the time.

[Rogueone]

well, withthe new sats going up, they are trying to get most of the country on 110/119/129 with the Dish 1000 it seems . and with E10 launching tonight I think , it has like 4x the transponders as what is currently at 110, so that is a lot of room to move in stuff from the wings, especially locals currently on 61.5

[James Long]

Why is it that Dish has had channels located all over the place while Directv has had most of its satellites available with one outside dish except in smaller local markets where a 72.5 dish is needed??Until they got 72.5, DirecTV didn't have enough locations to require a second dish. E* still has more transponders on D500 than D* has on their Phase III dish. But the availability of the side slots (which are a valuable commodity) allowed them to do two dish installs.Now Directv is adding a 5 LNB dish for HD locals--still only one dish needed while Dish still has channels scattered and may require more than one or two dishes outside.Good luck on ka - it is not a dish for the timid. SuperDishes are easier and less complex - and E*'s next step is a small dish like the Phase III.I think it'd cost Dish quite a bit adding new dishes for people or swapping old ones out for new ones all the time.It doesn't happen 'all the time'.

[SummitAdvantageRetailer]

One little typo there, JL on the 1st paragraph.

To reply to the topic at hand, they ARE moving 105 locals that were not mirrored on 129 to 110. There's a handful of those markets so come around Q2 or Q3 of 06, we'll no longer have the 105 beaming down the locals for E* subs.

[alebowgm]

Then maybe 105 will finally be the HD satellite it was intended for... then again, with the lack of range that 105 has... probably not...

I could see 105 becoming the 'Neglected' satellite for all of the DMAs that Echo doesnt already have but is going to add to have 100% coverage of all locals. There are some DMAs with only 1 or 2 stations and I can see them winding up there being that there are few who are going to need that location..

Then again, it is all speculation until Dish announces something

[James Long]

I can see 105 being the HD satellite for those who had SD locals on 105. Instead of making me install a D1000 and try to put my HD locals on one of those three sats use the space they have on 105.

[larrystotler]

Doubtful that they would actually try to make use of the 105 for HD anymore. There was way too much resistance to the idea of the SD to begin with. Besides, the only reason they even used the 105 for locals was to make use of the SDs that they had already stockpiled. In the end, it will be one big tax write-off for them. It's too bad they decided to ditch the 157. They could have used it for the west coast as a d500 with the 148/157, mirroring the 110/119 and had locals for the west coast and used the 110/119 for the rest of the country, especially now that they have the 129.

[James Long]

157° was mostly taken back by the government when the FCC cancelled the last auction per judges order. E* only had three transponders there, which they forfeited to move E4 to 77° to protect that Mexican slot.

[psnarula]

they ARE moving 105 locals that were not mirrored on 129 to 110. There's a handful of those markets so come around Q2 or Q3 of 06, we'll no longer have the 105 beaming down the locals for E* subs.

if true, this is bad news for me. i live in the baltimore DMA (a 105 superdish market) but have "moved" my service address to greensboro north carolina (also a 105 superdish market) for the purpose of picking up different locals and a RSN that i much prefer (fox sports net south versus crappy comcast sports net).

i suppose i'm not the only one that would be effected by an increased number of spotbeam locations. it would make "moving" a lot more difficult (if not impossible).

does anybody know anything about possible changes to how locals are sent to the baltimore and/or greensboro markets? the map that james long posted in the Echostar X thread doesn't have marks at either location. so i think this is good news for me (at least in the short term). i suppose eventually i'll have to go back to getting the baltimore locals again (*shudder*)

[James Long]

Look at the contours map to see how the spotbeams are shaped. Yes, spotbeams do make it harder to 'move'.

[FavreJL04]

As long as spotbeams is the topic here....does anybody know where I can find a map of the Green Bay, WI and Milwaukee, WI spotbeams? Thank you all.

[Chris Freeland]

if true, this is bad news for me. i live in the baltimore DMA (a 105 superdish market) but have "moved" my service address to greensboro north carolina (also a 105 superdish market) for the purpose of picking up different locals and a RSN that i much prefer (fox sports net south versus crappy comcast sports net).

i suppose i'm not the only one that would be effected by an increased number of spotbeam locations. it would make "moving" a lot more difficult (if not impossible).

does anybody know anything about possible changes to how locals are sent to the baltimore and/or greensboro markets? the map that james long posted in the Echostar X thread doesn't have marks at either location. so i think this is good news for me (at least in the short term). i suppose eventually i'll have to go back to getting the baltimore locals again (*shudder*)

You could always move to Atlanta, their local Big4, PBS,WB and UPN are on a National 110 TP, and the RSN's are Fox Sports Net South and Turner South.

[psnarula]

You could always move to Atlanta, their local Big4, PBS,WB and UPN are on a National 110 TP, and the RSN's are Fox Sports Net South and Turner South.

But I can't see the Atlanta spotbeam from here in Maryland... Am I missing something? If so, this might work out well in the future if things change with 105.

Fox Sports Net south isn't the only reason I want to switch to Greensboro locals. I want Greensboro because they carry a Raycom / Jefferson Pilot Sports affiliate for ACC Basketball and football games. Baltimore also has a Raycom / JP sports affiliate (dunno about Atlanta -- I'll have to look into this -- Atlanta might be SEC Country although they do have Ga Tech right there) but there are several times a year during basketball season when Raycom / JP Sports has two games scheduled at the same time and they do a "split signal" so that some folks see each game. For instance, on Feb 22nd 2006 they'll have Maryland vs Florida State and NC State vs North Carolina on split signal. Baltimore's affiliate will get Maryland's game. Greensboro's affiliate will get the NC State game. And inasmuch as I'm a NC State graduate, I much prefer the greensboro JP Sports affiliate because I know they'll always have NC State whenever they play opposite somebody else in a split signal scenario. I'll have to find a coverage map at jpsports.com and see which game an atlanta affiliate carries on the 22nd (assuming there is an atlanta affiliate)...

[James Long]

Not all of Atlanta's channels are on the spotbeam. You would lose all the smaller channels but you would get the channels Chris Freeland listed.

[BobaBird]

As long as spotbeams is the topic here....does anybody know where I can find a map of the Green Bay, WI and Milwaukee, WI spotbeams? Thank you all.If you don't already know which satellite they come from, check http://ekb.dbstalk.com/19 . If they're on 119 or 110 they likely are on a spot beam and you can go to http://ekb.dbstalk.com/297 for the coverage maps.

[Greg Bimson]

Why is it that Dish has had channels located all over the place while Directv has had most of its satellites available with one outside dish except in smaller local markets where a 72.5 dish is needed??Because DirecTV's spot beam satellites were more efficient.

Both DirecTV and Dish Network used ten transponders for spot-beam delivery. However, DirecTV was able to fit 106 markets by using 81 spot-transponders over 10 beams, and not much use of CONUS transponders. Dish Network was only able to use 50 spot-transponders. For Dish Network to reach 106 markets, they had to use their spot-transponders, their side satellites at 61.5 and 148, and medium powered FSS satellites at 105 and 121. That is why Echostar X is so important: it is the most efficient use of their bandwidth they've ever done.

[alebowgm]

Which means that the FSS satellites will now carry speciality programing or DMAs that echostar doesnt care about but needs in its effort to hit 100% of American locals...

Then again, E10 is adding so many more beams, that it will probably only he a handful of locals on the FSS side...

[larrystotler]

Keep in mind that they offer some private business channels on the 121. They could move all of that stuff to the FSS sats and free up the DBS slots for consumer programming. Or they could move the PI channels to the FSS slots.

[Mike500]

Basically, Dish will eventuall free up a lot of space at the 110 slot, when they take down Mpeg2 HD programming at 110 next year at this time.

I would suppose that such a move would help them eliminate the SuperDish.

[derwin0]

But I can't see the Atlanta spotbeam from here in Maryland... Am I missing something? If so, this might work out well in the future if things change with 105.

Fox Sports Net south isn't the only reason I want to switch to Greensboro locals. I want Greensboro because they carry a Raycom / Jefferson Pilot Sports affiliate for ACC Basketball and football games.
None of Atlanta's stations are on a spotbeam. The big 4, plus UPN/WB/PBS(GPTV) are on 110 Conus. The other minor stations are 61.5 Conus.
In Atlanta, WATL (WB) is the Jefferson Pilot affiliate for ACC games.
WUPA (UPN) is the Jefferson Pilot affiliate for SEC games.

[Chris Freeland]

Keep in mind that they offer some private business channels on the 121. They could move all of that stuff to the FSS sats and free up the DBS slots for consumer programming. Or they could move the PI channels to the FSS slots.

I agree that E* could move the private business channels to 121 and 105, however the FCC will not allow the PI channels to be moved over to the FSS slots, the PI channels are a DBS requirement and moving them to the SuperDish slot would defeat the purpose of the requirement if few of the E* subs had dish's to receive those channels. I also suspect that the any Internationals on the wings not already duplicated on 121 will be relocated to 121 and or 105 to make room for more HD locals on the wings. This is how I see the future;
105 Business channels and possibly Internationals.
110 SD Nationals and locals, HD National's and possibly some locals.
119 SD Nationals and locals.
121 Business channels and Internationals.
129 HD Nationals and locals.
148 HD locals.

[psnarula]

None of Atlanta's stations are on a spotbeam. The big 4, plus UPN/WB/PBS(GPTV) are on 110 Conus. The other minor stations are 61.5 Conus.
In Atlanta, WATL (WB) is the Jefferson Pilot affiliate for ACC games.
WUPA (UPN) is the Jefferson Pilot affiliate for SEC games.

I went to theacc.com and found this page that lists JP Sports affiliates for acc games separated by state:

http://theacc.collegesports.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/06mbktvclear.html

If you click on Georgia, it'll take you to this PDF document:

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/acc/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/06mbkclearga.pdf

It shows that there are actually two JP Sports affiliates in Atlanta -- WATL (which is CONUS on 110) and WPXA (which dish network does not carry). WATL carries most of the games but not all. Grrrrrr. There is a similar situation (two JP Sports affiliates) in Greensboro. But dish carries them both so I'm really happy with the way things work right now.

I guess I'll be forced to do something else at some point in the future as dish phases out the superdish in favor of more spotbeams. But nothing is changing right away so for now I'll just sit back and wait for things to develop. It was interesting to read the earlier post that compared spotbeams for Directv and Dish Network. One thing I do not understand is why dish network wants to phase out superdishes in favor of spotbeams. I refuse to believe that it's to keep people from getting out of market locals by "moving" -- if they cared about that they would have cracked down years ago. So what's the motivation for echostar? Is it cheaper to do spotbeams? Why not just have all locals be CONUS?

I also notice from http://ekb.dbstalk.com/19 that Atlanta says:

Big 4 Networks available nation wide to qualifying subscribers in "Dish Nets" package

What is a Dish Nets package? The same webpage says that NY, LA, and Chicago also have CONUS locals. Seems like people who want NY and LA locals for HD possibilities would have an easier time just doing a "move" to one of these locations rather than deal with all the waivers.

[James Long]

Then again, E10 is adding so many more beams, that it will probably only he a handful of locals on the FSS side...Look ma, NO hands?Or they could move the PI channels to the FSS slots.Nope. The PI channels must be on the main satellites. E* tried the 'let's put the PI channels on the wings' trick and got slapped down. The rule is a certain percentage of each slot.

[psnarula]

what does FSS stand for?

[James Long]

Fixed Satellite Service - It is the Ku band that is used with 105 and 121 as opposed to the slightly higher Ku frequencies used on the DBS satellites at 61.5/101/110/110/119/148 and foreign locations.

[derwin0]

I went to theacc.com and found this page that lists JP Sports affiliates for acc games separated by state:

It shows that there are actually two JP Sports affiliates in Atlanta -- WATL (which is CONUS on 110) and WPXA (which dish network does not carry). WATL carries most of the games but not all.
I have rarely seen a game on WPXA-14, at least not since PAX bought them.
All ACC football games (Go Jackets)have generally always been WSB-2, WATL-36 and Fox Sports South.
ACC basketball games are typically on WATL-36. WPXA-14 only gets them once in a blue moon, when WB programming interferes on WATL-36. WPXA has a grand total of 5 games last year <link> (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:a2icptbF-p8J:www.paxtv.com/sports/schedule_acc.cfm+wpxa+acc&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a).

[psnarula]

ACC basketball games are typically on WATL-36. WPXA-14 only gets them once in a blue moon, when WB programming interferes on WATL-36. WPXA has a grand total of 5 games last year

this year WPXA has seven games:

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/acc/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/06mbkclearga.pdf

if i wanted to not be able to watch the games that interest me, I'd just stick with comcast sports net and my baltimore jp sports affiliate. they're the best i've ever seen at not giving me what i want to see. CSN consistenly shows Ravens Postgame Live on sunday nights instead picking up Fox Sports Net's Acc Sunday Night Hoops feed. They make up for it by replaying the games on tape delay at 1:30 in the morning. The Baltimore JP Sports affiliate isn't so bad except when there is a split signal game -- i'm pretty much guaranted to not get the game involving a team from north carolina (unless one of them is playing maryland).

[A2736]

My locals currently are on 105 (superdish required). With the launch of E10 would I
be able to receive internationals (Greek currently on 121 and 61) and locals on D1000?
Thank you in advance

[James Long]

Internationals are not moving. You'll need a wing dish pointed at 61.5° (or 148° if you could see it) or a SuperDish pointed at 121°. If you can get just the LNBs for a 121° superdish you could convert your 105° superdish once the local channels move.

[A2736]

Thank you James great help .

[Fifty Caliber]

I don't see 121 being phased out due to all the international content there. I would like to see 105 go away, because if your locals are on 105, it makes getting 121 rather difficult. (How many people would like TWO SuperDishes?)

[Jacob S]

I read in another thread that Dish Network has 105 leased for 10 years. Surely they will have some sort of use for 105. Maybe the rest of the local markets will get the SuperDishes since there will not be nearly as many people in the smaller markets to install an expensive SuperDish for. Does 105 have enough space to launch the SD locals in the rest of the local markets? Maybe they will put up a second dish (61.5 or 148) for the rest of the local markets. I think a second dish is a lot easier to install than a SuperDish in many cases.

[James Long]

I don't see E* flipping SuperDishes out of one market and into another. If they do continue to use 105 to directly reach customers it will probably be with HD locals or some other service. Most likely they will just use it for 'backhaul' feeds and business uses.

[alebowgm]

None of Atlanta's stations are on a spotbeam. The big 4, plus UPN/WB/PBS(GPTV) are on 110 Conus. The other minor stations are 61.5 Conus.
In Atlanta, WATL (WB) is the Jefferson Pilot affiliate for ACC games.
WUPA (UPN) is the Jefferson Pilot affiliate for SEC games.

You forgot that WTBS, the Atlanta feed of the station, not the Superstation feed, is on 61.5

However, the Superstation TBS feed is available on CONUS

[Presence]

The only reason I "moved" from Lincoln to Omaha (NE) was because I did not want the ghastly SuperDish on a pole in my yard. Omaha is on 110, so my Dish 500 covers it.

Not only that, Omaha's channels are better. :) That said, what's the deal -- how come Lincoln does not receive the Omaha channels in it's package, anyway? All the Omaha channels serve Lincoln as part of their broadcast area, yet Dish does not include them in their Lincoln locals package.

[James Long]

The nation is divided up into 210 markets. Lincoln and Omaha are in different markets. Perhaps some day down the road this will get fixed (especially if the Omaha channels are significantly viewed in Lincoln).

[Presence]

Each and every Omaha channel always says "Omaha, Lincoln, Council Bluffs" during its station identification. Pity the FCC (their fault, right?) didn't see it that way.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get Dish to upgrade me to a Dish 1000 (along with a 622) here in Lincoln even though my service is in Omaha. ;)

[James Long]

Move twice.

Move to where you want the dish installed then move to where you want to live and take the dish with you.

[TNGTony]

Take a look at the way the TV markets are set here:
http://ekb.dbstalk.com/TVMarkets

This is not something that Dish can ignore. The markets do move slightly every year. The counties on the individual maps in white are counties that used to belong to this market but have moved since the maps were first made a couple of years ago.

See ya
Tony

see ya
Tony

[Big Bob]

157° was mostly taken back by the government when the FCC cancelled the last auction per judges order. E* only had three transponders there, which they forfeited to move E4 to 77° to protect that Mexican slot.

I thought that E* got the right to the remaining of 157 a few years back for a few million. They already had 3 transponders there, and they picked up the rest. Did the auction get nullified at some point? If so, is there any threads on it?
Thanks

[Chris Freeland]

I thought that E* got the right to the remaining of 157 a few years back for a few million. They already had 3 transponders there, and they picked up the rest. Did the auction get nullified at some point? If so, is there any threads on it?
Thanks

Yes, the sell was nullified a few months ago, their were stories and threads on all the DBS forums, you will need to do an archive search.

[James Long]

DBS Auction Nullified (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=493252&highlight=157#post493252) 12/23/05
Dish Relinquishes 3 TP Licenses at 157 W (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=458837&highlight=157#post458837) 10/7/05

157, 166 and 175 are now completely empty and unassigned.

[Big Bob]

DBS Auction Nullified (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=493252&highlight=157#post493252) 12/23/05
Dish Relinquishes 3 TP Licenses at 157 W (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=458837&highlight=157#post458837) 10/7/05

157, 166 and 175 are now completely empty and unassigned.

That too bad. I was really hoping that E* would do something interesting with 157. I wonder what the FCC will do with these locations in the future.

[James Long]

Another auction. One that the court system will deem "fair".