HDMI and DD 5.1 [Archive]

Kricket

03-20-06, 07:51 AM

The 622 will NOT pass 8 channel over HDMI.

did they cripple the hdmi interface? or is it that hdmi is CAPABLE of passing 8 channel audio - but thats dependent on what the manufacturer actually programs into the device?

the latter would probably make more sense - in that case, does the 622 even pass anything more than stereo through hdmi (or, worse yet, does it not pass any audio at all)?

LtMunst

03-20-06, 08:23 AM

did they cripple the hdmi interface? or is it that hdmi is CAPABLE of passing 8 channel audio - but thats dependent on what the manufacturer actually programs into the device?

the latter would probably make more sense - in that case, does the 622 even pass anything more than stereo through hdmi (or, worse yet, does it not pass any audio at all)?

HDMI is capable of 5.1 audio but the 622 will only pass a 2 channel Stereo signal over this output. In order to get surround sound from the 622, you need to use the optical cables. Perhaps a future software upgrade will enable surround over HDMI, but I would not hold my breath.

Kricket

03-20-06, 08:36 AM

HDMI is capable of 5.1 audio but the 622 will only pass a 2 channel Stereo signal over this output. In order to get surround sound from the 622, you need to use the optical cables. Perhaps a future software upgrade will enable surround over HDMI, but I would not hold my breath.

ok i see - now this is going to just be a general question about hdmi - 5.1 would be 6 channels of audio right? because according to hdmi.org (and wikipedia), its actually capable of 8 channels of "one-bit audio" - would that be 7.1 audio? or does the "one-bit" distinguish some other type of sound...?

i get what each "channel" of audio means - but i dont know why they state specifically "one-bit"...

i know this isnt the thread or the forum for such a question - but i figure if someone knows, why not just ask here! :)

Rob Glasser

03-20-06, 08:53 AM

DucTape

03-20-06, 08:54 AM

5.1 Is as follows, center, front, surround left, surround right and a subwofer channel.

It is 5 channels and 6 channels would add rear surround left and 7 channels would be rear surround right as well.

I dunno what the one bit audio deal is.

CoolGui

07-01-06, 02:24 AM

HDMI is capable of 5.1 audio but the 622 will only pass a 2 channel Stereo signal over this output. In order to get surround sound from the 622, you need to use the optical cables. Perhaps a future software upgrade will enable surround over HDMI, but I would not hold my breath.

Sorry to post on an old thread, but I was just wondering about this myself. Do you think it's possible the 622 is just not wired correctly to provide the 5.1 stream via HDMI? A hardware limitation? Geez, I hope not, I really do want to use HDMI for audio.

Brings up another question... my TV allows for HDMI to control it... turn it on or off, I don't guess there is any chance of that being built into the 622? That would be sweet! :)

ChuckA

07-01-06, 07:37 AM

Does you TV have 6 speakers?

SaltiDawg

07-01-06, 08:17 AM

hdmi supports up to 8 channel audio - however, youll need a receiver that is capable of decoding the audio through the hdmi connection...
Actually, both the receiver and the source (622) need to be of the appropriate HDMI Version to allow detection and utilization of the 5.1 stereo. Very, very few receivers would be able to sense and process 5.1 via HDMI. To suggest that this is somehow a Dish conspiracy to not pass one portion of the existing A/V signal is a mistake.

DonLandis

07-01-06, 08:45 AM

Dolby spec audio is actually 8 channels of "dolby digital" That is 6 channels for the DD5.1 plus 2 channels of DD2.0. We need to carry 8 because not all DD sound systems are DD5.1 and the mix is different, ie you just cannot derive DD2.0 from DD5.1 "in the wires"

HDMI was designed to carry 8-channels from the start. The 2 channel 622 limitation claimed here is not a limitation of HDMI. These audio channels are limited to 24bit 192 Khz. in the current HDMI spec. Later this year It is expected that HDMI1.3 spec will be out. This I understand will offer broader bandwidth for higher definition video such as 1080p x1920 as well as DTS broadband audio spec in addition to the current DD5.1.

The major limitation we see today is in the display end of HDMI in that HDMI monitors with sound systems are not in and of themselves DD5.1 compliant. However, some newer receivers such as the latest Denon with HDMI switching will pass easily the DD5.1 spec via HDMI from the source.

I don't know if the 622 actually passes all the 8 channels but this is not a limitation of HDMI but could be a software issue with the 622. If so, this could change with future upgrades.

Does anyone here have one of the latest Denon Receivers 5800? with HDMI switching inputs? If so you could confirm if the 622 is sending DD 5.1 now or not.
I know that this receiver does decode the DD5.1 from the HDMI inputs.

HDMI 1.3 is slated to come out by the end of the year. This will double the bandwidth and allow for full implementation of the Blu ray second generation products including full DTS 7.1 spec and deeper 48 bit color. It pays to wait for the best picture and sound until well into 2007 if you were planning on a major upgrade for sound and picture with blu ray HDDVD at 1080p and DTS. :)

ChuckA

07-01-06, 08:53 AM

As I understand it, it has been proved in the past the 622 only passes 2 channel stero not 5.1. Perhaps this could be updated via software but I don't know.

teddy

07-01-06, 11:27 AM

Hi:
I also mistakenly thought that the Vip622 passed DD5.1 through the HDMI port. I even spoke to one of the head engineers at Dish about it.
I have a Denon 4806 which does pass DD5.1 via HDMI. The Vip622 does NOT pass DD5.1. The Vip622 only sends stereo out from the HDMI port. This is a limitation of the Vip622 NOT HDMI.
Just because HDMI is capable of passing DD5.1, obviously it will not do so if no signal is sent through it. Similarly an optical cable will not pass DD5.1 if it is connected to a DVD player which does not send DD5.1 signals. And a copper pipe will not pass hot water if it is not hooked up to a water heater.
HDMI recommends concentrating on the capablities of the equipment not the cable.
I hope this helps.

SaltiDawg

07-01-06, 01:40 PM

... The Vip622 only sends stereo out from the HDMI port. This is a limitation of the Vip622 NOT HDMI. ...
This is not correct. The digital audio is part of the total HD stream that is received by Dish. Why on earth would you suggest that Dish would demux the signal, remove the 5.1, and then mux the signal minus the 5.1 to send via HDMI?

Go over to AVS and read many threads about the HDMI problems in utilizing 5.1 via HDMI. Because an audio format is carried or present does not mean that the protocol exists to use that audio. Take HDMI to DVI, for example. Do you think the 5.1 and 2 Ch audio is not present out of the DVI? Well, it is! Hook up your DVI to HDMI adapter and voila the 2 CH audio is usable and the 5.1 is present but not curremntly usable.

You may want to read DonLandis' post (just above in htis thread) first.

CABill

07-01-06, 02:11 PM

I think Teddy is quite correct. DISH may eventually download firmware that will pass 5.1 out HDMI, but it doesn't now. It is a DISH limitation, not the HDMI version. The "total HD Stream" can include both a PCM and 5.1 audio version. If you select PCM for TOSLink, DISH doesn't demux and remux - it just passes stereo supplied on the feed. It is difficult to recreate 2.0 from 5.1 so both are sent. My ATSC tuner in the TV will pass 5.1 on the TOSLink out, but only uses PCM for its two (crummy) speakers. It is even more difficult to create Spanish from the English audio so the receiver just selects that audio feed.

Most people using HDMI will be connecting it to a TV and they generally don't support 5.1 in the first place. Speculation on my part, but I don't think this is a high priority item to DISH. If DISH did attempt to assertain that the sink was capable of 5.1 and supply that instead of 2.0, there would probably be more people complaining about the audio via HDMI than there are complaining because their AV Receiver will accept 5.1. Most HDMI sinks don't. It couldn't hurt to have it as an option in Preferences to pass 5.1 if the sink looks like it supports it during HDMI initial negotiations.

SaltiDawg

07-01-06, 03:40 PM

... It is a DISH limitation, not the HDMI version. ...
... If DISH did attempt to assertain that the sink was capable of 5.1 and supply that instead of 2.0, there would probably be more people complaining about the audio via HDMI than there are complaining because their AV Receiver will accept 5.1. ...

You are simply mistaken. To be correct, Dish would have to strip the 5.1 from the digital stream by demuxing and muxing. Theer is no reason for them to do this.

Virtually no current receivers are capable of decoding the 5.1 present at the HDMI port. And those that start to become capable need to be very carefully mated with compatible HDMI sources.

DonLandis

07-01-06, 03:51 PM

posted by saltidawg-"Do you think the 5.1 and 2 Ch audio is not present out of the DVI? Well, it is! Hook up your DVI to HDMI adapter and voila the 2 CH audio is usable and the 5.1 is present but not curremntly usable."

Not sure if I am reading correctly what you are saying here but DVI has no audio capability at all and as such any HDMI connected to a DVI adapter will automatically end the audio passthrough at that adapter. If you did experience some audio, they you should check your alternative sound input to the amp as many receivers, like the Denon will do an auto scan for alternative audio channels any time the selected one loses connection.

http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/dvi_info.html#Page03

http://dvi.baumannpaper.com/#_Toc51306030

some interesting basic reading on the DVI capabilities.

edit- Saltidawg- did some more research on this idea of joining audio and video from DVI into an HDMI cable and found this interesting discussion from gefen. Note this is not yet out-

http://forum.gefen.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=837

teddy- thanks for confirming what you posted. I know E* says DD5.1 via optical cable and does not mention anything about it for HDMI so what you confirmed, I had always assumed.

CABill

07-03-06, 11:56 AM

HDMI audio doesn't end from passing through a DVI connector. My 942 came with HDMI->DVI and DVI->HDMI connectors and they work fine to pass audio. You do lose Audio if the HDMI-HDMI connection is broken - that's a requirement of HDMI. The HDMI Source then rereads the abilities of the sink and supplies Audio and Video that the sink is capable of using. At least 95% of the time (no idea what the actual percentage is of users with AV receivers that COULD use 5.1), the 622's should send 2 channel PCM to a stereo TV. The small percentage of users with a 5.1 capable receiver are out of luck because DISH just doesn't supply 5.1. All HDMI sinks are required to support 2 channel PCM and that is what DISH supplies for audio on HDMI - regardless of the sink's abilities. That could change I guess with new firmware, but DISH always just just sends 2 channel.

teddy

07-03-06, 06:12 PM

Stew

07-03-06, 11:42 PM

With more and more households upgrading their systems with HDMI equipped receivers, it would be great if Dish could pass 5.1 or 7.1 through their HDMI connector. One cable from the 622 directly to the receiver. I'm an advocate of KISS (keep it simple, stupid).

DonLandis

07-04-06, 03:12 AM

CABILL I believe the connectors you received are non-standard then. I have the spec ones from Monster and the audio connection from the HDMI side is open on the DVI side, ie No Connection. Only the video data side is pass through and is a pin for pin match. There just isn't any extra wire for the audio data in the DVI. Again note- Gefen is making such an adapter but it will piggyback the audio into a DVI connection source and output HDMI with audio and gets it's input from either analog (red white ) or toslink, plus video from DVI source. I understand this is expensive as well.

CABill

07-04-06, 08:14 AM

What I mean by DVI passing audio is that there is NO audio connection used in HDMI. There is a (bidrectional) TMDS data bus that us used by HDMI to send the video AND audio data. Wikipedia is a decent source, but doesn't have the details HDMI.org itself has (I thought you had to register to even see it there though). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI shows the connections in the HDMI where a few things were added to the DVI connections, but they aren't "audio" additions as such. HDMI uses source for the device supplying the signal and sink for the device receiving the signal. As part of the initial negotiation, HDMI defines certain addresses for the audio and video abilities of the sink. The source (622 here) is supposed to read those addresses to figure out what it "can" send. 2 channel PCM doesn't need to be "figured out" since it is required to be supported by all HDMI sinks (destinations). A device that doesn't support the HDMI negotiation (DVI) just won't get audio data bits mixed in with the video bits on the TMDS data bus.

Don - you may be quite correct about the DISH supplied cables. I've never tried anything else. But it wouldn't be audio that was "added". There were 2-3 connectors present in HDMI that didn't exist in DVI, but I don't recall those signals being used to complete the HDMI negotiation. DVI devices just don't know anything about HDMI negotiation protocol.

CoolGui

07-19-06, 02:02 AM

Does you TV have 6 speakers?

Sorry, I just realized your question was probably directed at me. I acually wanted to use my TV to switch the audio and video. My TV has optical out, so that would still stay in place, but I then easily select the source via the TV (remote control) and not have to switch my reciver (don't have the remote to switch that one anymore).

I guess the more usual way to do it is an HDMI receiver, then another HDMI cable from the receiver to the TV for video. But I'd rather not upgrade my receiver just to switch HDMI when the current one works pretty well and my TV theoretically can switch the HDMI (haven't got a chance to try).

SaltiDawg

07-19-06, 04:53 AM

... Perhaps a future software upgrade will enable surround over HDMI, but I would not hold my breath.
It's not a 622 deficiency but rather a function of which HDMI version is used by the 622 and the receiver. There are virtually no receivers that are capable of decoding the 5.1 sound.

SaltiDawg

07-19-06, 05:02 AM

...

Don - you may be quite correct about the DISH supplied cables. I've never tried anything else. But it wouldn't be audio that was "added". There were 2-3 connectors present in HDMI that didn't exist in DVI, but I don't recall those signals being used to complete the HDMI negotiation. DVI devices just don't know anything about HDMI negotiation protocol.
He keeps insisting that what you (and I) state as facts are not true.

Fact: HDMI to DVI cable plugged into a DVI to HDMI adapter yields 2 CH stereo at output. (Actually the 5.1 is also "available" - just not "usable.") If one naysays often enough, it must be true. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

teddy

07-19-06, 05:27 AM

It's not a 622 deficiency but rather a function of which HDMI version is used by the 622 and the receiver. There are virtually no receivers that are capable of decoding the 5.1 sound.
Sorry, but this is just wrong! In fact many such receivers are currently available. The 622 passes stereo only through HDMI and thus it is impossible to get 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 through the HDMI on the 622. You must use the optical output to get DD. I have researched this and have spoken to the engineers at Dish.
Again, HDMI cables are just wires, It is a function of your equipment as to what can/cannot be sent thru the wires. Although with that being said, the HDMI version does limit the upper end of what can be sent. E.g., HDMI ver 1.1 cannot send HD sound.

DonLandis

07-19-06, 08:32 AM

Guys, I apologize- I was not reading what you were doing with the DVI cable correctly. Or, at least it didn't register imn my head correctly. :)

I understand now that yes, you are using HDMI at both ends and therefore should get audio pass through. I have no way to test this here but trust your observation as valid. The fact that you are using some unusual combination of adapters and a DVI cable "in the middle", is really using a DVI cable but it is used in an HDMI capacity. Not sure how well this would work especially over longer runs but if you are getting results, be happy! :) Sorry again for mistakenly thinking you were trying to get audio into your audio receiver with a DVI connection. I was going off in the wrong direction on this.

PROXUS

07-19-06, 09:44 AM

Wow.....I just found this post because I taught I do something wrong.
It is very suprising that DN who promote HD so much is not sending 5.1 via HDMI.

I just got 58PX600U plasma with 2 HDMI inputs and optical output. I was so happy that I can reroute all my sources via HDMI and OC especially that I have CableCard and 622.

CableCard is sending 5.1 to my AVR without any problems while 622 conected via HDMI is sending only 2 chanels. I am VERY dissapointed with Dish, especially that I really wanted to avoid switching between audio sources on my AVR.

Well....I hope that will be some kind of software upgrade for HDMI audio soon because this is really annoying.

teachsac

07-23-06, 09:09 AM

According to the VP of E* engineering, there should be a software update to enable the 622 to pass the 5.1 signal over "HDMI". The issue is that E* did not use HDMI specs for the 942/211/622/411. That is why it is called an HDTV interface and not HDMI. Trademark infringement. Unfortunately, this update will not be available until sometime in 2007. Until then, the inteface will only pass DD2.0. You have to use the optical interface if you want 5.1.