HDTV FTA Receiver

[domains454]

Does anyone know of any HDTV FTA Receivers that work like the Pansat 2700a?

[Richard King]

I don't know of any, but what do you mean by "work like the Pansat 2700a?"?

[FTA Michael]

AFAIK, the best way to achieve HDTV FTA is to use a FTA card with a decent computer. But that won't blind scan like a Pansat 2700a.

[tdti1]

I don't know of any, but what do you mean by "work like the Pansat 2700a?"?


There is the Integra IT910 and IT912, and the Quali TV.

[updatelee]

dreambox 7025 can decode qpsk HD, dont think there is any fta 8psk HD anyhow, so no need to worry about that. 7025 is only avlible in euo right now I beleive, give it time for dealers to start carring it over here.

[Fifty Caliber]

iIs there much HD-FTA content out there?

[FTA Michael]

In a word, no. PBS HD is the only one that comes to mind. There are some sports backhauls in HD (or is it just quasi-HD?) that regular FTA receivers can't handle but an HD-capable FTA receiver can.

[gregm99]

The best way to achieve HDTV FTA is to use a FTA card with a decent computer.

Do you have recommendations for a "decent computer" and components (ie. video card and anything else that may be needed)? I have a starbox/twinhan usb device which works but the video is very choppy on SD broadcasts - I can only imagine what hdtv would look like. I have a 2ghz athlon with 512mb memory, and Radion 9200SE (I know that isn't a good card but wasn't sure what to get in its place or if I need a whole new computer too.

Thanks

[FTA Michael]

The processor and memory look okay. Are you sure that the Starbox is using a USB 2.0 port?

[MikeI]

The QualiTV receiver does HD and costs about $700 + shipping

[Chandu]

I had been researching a bit on DVB-HD receivers, and came across one of the most bizzare configurations reported by someone to achieve FTA HD reception.

The exact post which is about 2.5 years ago is here:

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/showpost.php?p=11827&postcount=23

This is the complete thread:

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2118&page=1&pp=15

What confounds me about this configuration is that this poster had following hardware:


Coship 5300CI which is an FTA receiver with no HD tuner
Samsung SIR-T165 which is an ATSC receiver (obviously including HD tuner), with absolutely no DVB or DVB-HD capabilities


He sent the RF-Out of the FTA receiver into Coax-In of the ATSC receiver. I'm completely puzzled that (this poster claimed that) a 1080i picture with 16:9 aspect ratio from a satellite comes out of his ATSC receiver's digital output!?!?!?!? :confused:

Has anyone here tried an experiment like this? I don't have any DVB receiver of my own to test this, but how can an ATSC receiver decode the frequency for the DVB signal? Is this something standard that can work with all ATSC receivers, or could it have been a quirk of that particular Samsung model? I'm suspicious that what was being fed to the display was in fact not a HD picture. It is possible that it was a widescreen SD picture, but somehow due to the aspect ratio he had it fooled for a true HD picture.

If the stars were somehow aligned, and he actually got the HD signal to pass through, could the RF-Out also have transferred digital audio from the satellite channel to the ATSC box? Would he have needed an external RF demodulator to achieve this "digital passthrough"?

The more and more I think about this, it doesn't make much sense. But if someone has an insight into this, I would love to hear about it.

[FTA Michael]

I read through the whole thread, and IMHO the guy was talking through his hat. He bounced around talking about watching stuff that was only on C-band (while "hoping to get" a C-band dish) and stuff that was Digicipher (as opposed to DVB) and the HD stuff you mention. The simplest explanations are that he was dreaming, deluded, or just thought that quoting LyngSat would make him look like a big shot. Unless he figured out a lot more magic tricks than the rest of us. :D

[Chandu]

I researched more on RF Out. There is no way in hell a pure digital signal - complete with audio and video - can come out of it with a default coax connection.

I'm sorry about this distraction, but that sure was one deluded guy.

If it smells like HD and looks like HD to me, it must be HD!!! :D :grin:

[Chandu]

The QualiTV receiver does HD and costs about $700 + shipping

I hope their next generation HD receiver has a good size HD-DVR and DisEqc 1.3 support, and I'm jumping over it.

Luckily, HD is becoming more and more accepted in Europe. So, sooner or later I'm expecting the "next generation FTA receiver" to come out of Europe or Taiwan or Korea, with the nice featureset we've come to expect. The functionality in a single box I'm looking for is similar to DISH network's ViP 622.

[Chandu]

I found a receiver which comes very close to what I'm looking for:

http://www.humaxdigital.com/global/products/new_leaflet/HDCI-2000_L.pdf

It's called Humax HDCI-2000 and is selling very hot right now on UK based websites (the reason being World Cup being shown in Full HD in UK and most of Europe for the first time).

This receiver has an HDMI out, and component outputs. It has USALS support. Unfortunately there is no DVR. But I'm sure the next version with DVR isn't too far away.

And here is one more, this one with USALS and HDMI out too, but still no integrated DVR:

http://www.quali-tv.com/downloads/DS810XE.pdf

Good news is, mouthwatering prospects of DVB receivers with HDMI-Out are coming out, and should be hitting the US shores very soon.

The problem with hooking beasts like these with an external DVR is that the DVRs cannot record true HD that way. With an RF-Out option, even for an SD picture you lose data. For example, stereo audio turns into mono audio. For live TV watching there is no capability to pause, rewind, move back to live picture etc. With an integrated DVR, the raw byte buffering of the original stream at highest quality occurs in the DVR itself.

Personally for me, I'll wait out till the next version of QualiTV or Humax comes out with a DVR (and possibly dual tuner, which could be an icing on the cake).

There are few UK based websites that do ship to USA, although for a hefty shipping fee and custom duties as well. Just thought I would get this out here, in case anyone is interested.

[hadooj]

AFAIK, the best way to achieve HDTV FTA is to use a FTA card with a decent computer. But that won't blind scan like a Pansat 2700a.

I am new to FTA and I am using MediaCenterEdition 2005 as my primary guide. I have dishnetwork today but I would like to migrate completely to FTA if possible. Can someone please recommend the optimal solution for a FTA solution where I could use my computer as the primary point for the fta feed and the on screen guide without having to use a secondary fta, satellite, or cable box.

I have a pretty strong computer (HP557) that has 2 extra pcmia slots available...

thanks

[Richard King]

At this point in time you won't be able to get any of the major subscription channels, legally, through FTA or your computer. I have serious doubts that this will ever change in the near future. Someone else will probably advise you on potential real FTA products.

[kosar1985]

is it legal to buy the fta recievers, and do you need to run everything through the computer?

[FTA Michael]

Standalone true FTA receivers are perfectly legal. True FTA receivers that work with computers are also perfectly legal. Neither of those will get you pay-TV channels, but they will let you pick up about 200+ free TV channels.

[HarryDugan]

I appreicate all the info here but I am admitted behind on the times on this topic.

Can someone list some of the better FTA channels that might be benfited from and their locaton in the sky? I've looked at links and uit's a bit of a needle in the haystack.

[FTA Michael]

If you're talking about HDTV Ku-band FTA, the only one I know of is PBS at AMC 3 (87 W).

If you're talking about general Ku-band FTA, the English-language channels are listed here: http://www.ftalist.com/English.htm.

[Chandu]

FYI:

I found couple of other threads on other forums which are tracking this exact same topic.

http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34990

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=524085

I cross-referenced this thread on avsforum, since I'm also a member of that forum. But the thread on the Canadian forum seems to be getting updated with more information recently. Take the information there for what it's worth. (I'm not a posting member on that forum.)

[Chandu]

Alright, I have a lot of information to update in this thread, as these products seem to be getting ready to rock and roll, especially in Europe.

A British company called Pace has an incredibly loaded box called TDS850HD with pretty much all state-of the art features. HDMI/HDCP and conditional access support, USALS, DVB-S2, PVR hard disks from 160-300 GB. Unfortunately, they don't sell it general public at all!! It is available right now to BSkyB pay TV satellite subscribers in UK, if they subscribe to the HD tier. I found another link in Switzerland somewhere else which said they may start selling it to consumers from February 2007. They're taking pre-orders right now.

http://www.pace.co.uk/corporate/products/prodinfo.asp?PID=TDS850HD
http://www.pacemicro.com/corporate/documents/specs/TDS850_spec.pdf

Pace does on the other hand sell another box directly to consumers called DS810XE. (that's the name in UK, in Germany it is called DS810KP). This is very much like the above loaded box, except it doesn't have a PVR and has only a single tuner.

http://www.pacemicro.com/corporate/newsroom/pacenewsitem.asp?id=10437
http://www.pacemicro.com/Corporate/products/prodinfo.asp?PID=DS810XE
http://www.pacemicro.com/Corporate/documents/specs/DS810XE_spec.pdf

Both of above boxes support DVB-S2 on top of DVB-S. This is the MPEG-4 compression which will be used more and more in the future, so they should go long way in the future.

German division of Humax sells a product under the name PR-HD1000 (standing for Premiere HD, whatever that means). On close examination, this looks virtually identical to HDCI-2000, with a different product name. I'm not sure what differences exist between the 2 products. Anyone else can tell?

http://www.humax-digital.de/products/PR-HD1000.asp
http://www.humax-digital.de/products/new_leaflet/PR-HD1000.pdf

Needless to say, this doesn't have DVR support, doesn't have dual tuners. It does support USALS and has HDMI/HDCP. Both PR-HD1000 and HDCI-2000 support DVB-S2.

HDCI-2000 claims 2 Common Interface PCMCIA slots for conditional access (SmartCard). It looks like PR-HD1000 has only 1 Common Interface slot for smart cards, while it has its own built in smart card slot (not sure for which encryption scheme).

In September 2005, Samsung had announced in Amsterdam that they'll be coming out with a whole slew of MPEG4 HD DVR boxes across all of Europe. Among them, the satellite variants would support DVB-S2, both embedded CA and CI options for pay channels, HDMI/HDCP. And here is the killer - they would have dual tuner PVRs with hard disk capacity of 160-320 GB. I would have assumed they would support USALS as well.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/DigitalCableReceiver/news/DigitalCableReceiver_20050909_0000200335.htm

However, after close to 11 months of this announcement, I find no trace of any such products anywhere. Were these bunch of vaporware hype being created by Samsung? :confused:

A Taiwanese company called Zimwell sells a bunch of products. I can't find any sites which carry any of these models for purchase yet. I have feeling that this is bunch of vaporware, similar to Samsung. :confused:

http://www.zintech.com.tw/Product/STB/ZDX-640_HD_FTA.html
http://www.zintech.com.tw/PDF_File/STB/ZDX-640 HD FTA.pdf

http://www.zintech.com.tw/Product/STB/ZDX-640_HD_CA_CI.html
http://www.zintech.com.tw/PDF_File/STB/ZDX-640 HD CA - CI.pdf

http://www.zintech.com.tw/Product/STB/ZDT-640_HD_FTA.html
http://www.zintech.com.tw/PDF_File/STB/Mpeg-4 DVB-T FTA.pdf

Notwithstanding that this may only be vaporware, the first model is purely an FTA box with no slots for smartcards . The second one has 2 PCMCIA slots for common interface (pay TV). First 2 of them are HD boxes with PVRs and support DVB-S2. Third one is just an HD box without PVR and doesn't support DVB-S2. Surprisingly, none of them support USALS.

And last but not the least, Broadcom had announced a powerful HD dual tuner DVB-S2 chip called BCM4501. After doing a quick check, none of the receivers listed above use this chip, although I could be wrong. I'm not sure when new receivers using this chip will become consumer products.

http://www.electronicstalk.com/news/brd/brd109.html
http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=800931

There you go. As I said, that's a lot of information. Most products still not directly available in USA (or Canada). But if someone is willing to bring them from Europe, they can pretty much get the state-of-the-art products.

[P Smith]

Small correction: "This is the MPEG-4 encryption..." - should be written as "This is the MPEG-4 compression ..."

[Chandu]

Thank you. I edited my post to fix this error, as well as fixed few broken links from the Taiwanese website which had embedded spaces in them.

[P Smith]

Reading the links found other correction: BCM4501 is dual receiver chip what include two sat tuners and two demod parts;
for example the chip could replace 4 chips in ViP622 (2xBCM3440 and 2xBCM4500).

[Chandu]

Then there is the Dreambox 8000s box which will be loaded similar to the Pace TDS850HD box. It will be dual HD tuners, DVB-S and DVB-S2 compliant, optional PVR capability with hard disk upto 400 GB, both HDMI and DVI out, USALS compliance and on and on and on.

The only thing is, Dream Multimedia is very tight lipped about when it'll be actually released. Initial reports had said it was supposed to be by June 2006. But its schedule has slipped and the rumors now say anywhere from 1 to 3 months from now. Needless to say, Dream Multimedia is tight lipped about pricing for this box as well. They have intentionally not even posted any link announcing functionality, pictures, specifications, absolutely nothing. It's being run as a very closely guarded secret project.

There are few links swirling around about it on various sites. But since they're not from the official source, I won't bother posting any links until there is an official announcement.

[Sharkonwheels]

I don't think it's been mentioned, but Pace micro in the UK has a few also.

as to HD channels, there are some listed on Lyngsat for Echo 8, that look unencrypted. At least, they don't mention an encryption, as I remember.

Also, there is an HD movie channel on one of the Anik birds.


T

[Chandu]

I don't think it's been mentioned, but Pace micro in the UK has a few also.

:confused:

It has been mentioned in detail in previous posts, one of them an almost comprehensive list of many boxes. Did you check those?

[Sharkonwheels]

What I can't figure out, is what the heck is taking them so long.
Most of the Vaporware STB's were announced in 2005, and we're halfway through 2006, and there are only 2 on the market.

Where is the PanSat 7000
Where is the Coolsat Unit
Where are the others?

Like I mentioned elsewhere....by the time we get HD-capable STB's, the HD channels will already be scrambled.


T

[Chandu]

The Pace TDS850HD box has already been out for a while now. It's just that it is not available for any end-consumers till next year. From what I understand, they had been busy negotiating with BSkyB in UK and some other satellite provider in Germany (forget the name) to start carrying this box.

BSkyB currently uses an inferior box from Thomson under the name "digibox", but after their contract with Thomson runs out, will replace it with Pace TDS850HD. I think Pace will also be the suppliers for DirecTV's next-generation MPEG-4 compliant box in USA.

Dreambox 8000s is very close to releasing I think. But they became very secretive about this box after they kept getting bombarded with availability questions, to the extent that it started hampering their development schedule. I don't mind waiting 2-3 more months for it.

I checked with Zintech/Zinwell in Taiwan, and they say their boxes will start shipping and available directly to consumers worldwide in 2-3 more months, with a timeline parallel to Dreambox 8000s.

I have no idea what Pansat or Coolsat are upto. Those posters in Canada seemed to be more on top of developments with these. Frankly, personally I don't care waiting for anything from them, as I prefer waiting for the Dreambox 8000s.

Where are the others?

As mentioned in previous posts, Pace and Humax already have some other boxes available directly to consumers. True, they have few things missing from top-of-the-line functionality checklists, but they're there. It's not as if there is absolutely nothing available right now. Then there is also the QualiTV box which is an older generation one, but it is available.

[Sharkonwheels]

I guess another question, is, do any of these do 4:2:2 also?


T

[Chandu]

I guess another question, is, do any of these do 4:2:2 also?

None of them have stated anything about this support - positive or negative - searching through most of the links I posted before.

I've seen references to the unreleased Dreambox 8000s having 4:2:2 support.

[hometronix]

The QualiTV receiver does HD and costs about $700 + shipping

Supposed to be a good one...

[jdoe100]

Hi guys. Any news on any HD FTA receivers now available here in the US? I really would like to know. Thanks.

[kenglish]

Probably have to order from overseas. Satellite Superstore, Doebis, or some places like that.

[Chandu]

I've got great news for people who were waiting on the top-of-the-line technology for this, folks!

Dreambox 7025 is finally out, after having waited for it so long.

A number of vendors have already started selling it on the internet, do your search.

http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/english/products_dm7025.php

I had listed info about specifications a while back, earlier in the thread. More information is available from above link.

Go on, knock yourself out!!!

[P Smith]

Disapponting.
No H.264 [MPEG-4]; no 8PSK, no DVB-S2 support.

[Chandu]

Disapponting.
No H.264 [MPEG-4]; no 8PSK, no DVB-S2 support.

I'm very sorry, never mind. Had a brain fart.

Dreambox 8000s is what everyone is waiting for. Not 7025.

Once again, big apologies. Carry on.

[Mark06111]

Just banging around the net, I found the coolsatusa site stating that the Coolsat 8000 (HD MPEG4, etc...) is coming January (likely late) '07. Sure DBox is a dream, but CS might beat them to the punch...

[TonyM]

Just banging around the net, I found the coolsatusa site stating that the Coolsat 8000 (HD MPEG4, etc...) is coming January (likely late) '07. Sure DBox is a dream, but CS might beat them to the punch...

Coolsat is not doing MPEG4

They may (and we dont know yet. There is conflicting info) only do OTA HD or maybe MPEG2 QSPK HD