TiVo and DIRECTV Agree to Extend Relationship for Three Years

[Chris Blount]

Agreement Guarantees Quality Service for Existing DIRECTV TiVo Subscribers; Also Addresses Intellectual Property

ALVISO, Calif., April 12 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO - News), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), and DIRECTV, Inc. (NYSE: DTV - News), the nation's leading digital television service provider, today announced a three-year extension to the TiVo-DIRECTV commercial agreement.

Existing DIRECTV TiVo subscribers will be able to continue to receive the award-winning TiVo® service, with TiVo providing ongoing maintenance and support. In addition, TiVo and DIRECTV agree not to assert patent rights against the other. The agreement also extends the advertising relationship between the two companies. DIRECTV will continue to service existing DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service. While specific financial terms of the agreement were not disclosed, the recurring monthly economics of the agreement are similar to the economics for DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service activated since 2003.

MORE (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060412/sfw019.html?.v=44)

[Fl_Gulfer]

Isn't that Special..... I'm glad I still get my guide info, now if they would just upgrade the software.

[Blurayfan]

Now if only they upgrade the software to 7.x. Even without TiVoToGo the other features, Clip Overlap protection, improved suggestions, Recently Deleted folder would be a great enhancement to the current product.

[TheRatPatrol]

So I wonder if they'll come out with an MPEG4 HD-Tivo? And I wonder if D* will buy Tivo? Wouldn't that be nice? :D

[Chris Blount]

This is indeed good news. It's hard to say what will happen in the next three years but at least we can still enjoy our Tivos.

My hope is that they will roll out the 6.2 software to the HR10-250. I know, wishful thinking. :)

[Clint Lamor]

Heck the way it's going maybe it will accidentally get rolled out. :lol:

[Capmeister]

I'm quite pleased. I love my D*Tivo and want it to continue. I don't want an R15 or R20.

[TMullenJr]

So I wonder if they'll come out with an MPEG4 HD-Tivo?

If you read the release, they talk about Tivo for existing customers. I don't believe there will be any new Tivo models. Anything new will be their in-house DVRs. To me, the release only means that the existing tivo units will be working for 3 years before they shut them off.

[abricko]

this makes no sense... why would they develop the in-house dvrs and then extend the relationship, it must be to keep the existing ones working while they finish upgrading existing tivo users, i'd imagine as time goes on D* will pay tivo less and less as their number of tivo users go down... why would people give up their existing tivo for a NDS dvr? MPEG4 support... that's it.

This is probably a distraction by D* to keep tivo off their backs in the event they win the E* lawsuit (and if tivo survives another 3 years)

[moonman]

I think this is the more important issue here.........
"In addition, TiVo and DIRECTV agree not to assert patent rights against the other. "............this opens the door for D* to include whatever features into
their HR-20-250 they want..including Tivo features, without fear of a lawsuit, and
probably would speed up release of the new DVR......

[cabanaboy1977]

My hope is that they will roll out the 6.2 software to the HR10-250. I know, wishful thinking. :)


That would be nice. I can't stand not having folders (not sure if 6.2 has it but i miss mark and delete) since I only every had UTV and the R15 i'm use to folders and mark and delete. Does the 6.2 also give you picture in the guide and markings on the guide to show you programs that will record with out having to select the program?

[caniov]

For those who have SD Tivos and wish to keep them, that's good news. The three year agreement takes you to 2009, when analog channels will most likely be turned off. For me with a HD-Tivo, doesn't do me much good. My OTA reception is problematic at best and horrific at worst, so I need (and have been waiting) for the MPEG-4 HD-locals. That means a new MPEG-4 DVR.

I was an E* subscriber for 6 years with an original Series 1 stand alone Tivo, but switched to D* because I wanted an integrated DBS receiver-Tivo DVR. Then I bought the HD-Tivo at a premium price, and shortly thereafter, D* dropped the bombs that Tivo would not be their future DVR supplier and that new HD channels, including locasl, would be in MPEG-4. I will probably go back to E* and lease a 622 (IMHO the best alternative to an HD-Tivo) once HD-locals are available in St. Louis.

[Capmeister]

Unless the D*DVR really covers my needs, and gets a 30-sec skip and all the Tivo features I love, D* will lose me when my Tivos stop working.

[MikeW]

I "made the switch" in January. Very glad I did. Purchased 1 HD and 3 SD Tivos. Got an R15 for my den, just to see what it's like. I'd have been very unhappy with the switch if all of my receivers were R15. Who knows what technology will be around in 2009.

BTW...the shutdown of analog signals has 0 impact on DBS or DirecTivos....

[harsh]

This agreement is important to TiVo on several fronts:

1. It comes at a time when TiVo is fighting a difficult battle against E* and they need all the support (friends and $$$) they can get.
2. Acknowledging now that TiVo has something that DirecTV needs should provide some hint that the TiVo patent is valid and should be respected where their lawyers arguably aren't doing so well.
3. TiVo can once again claim partnership with all of the distribution industry leaders.

On the downside, assuming that the pricing agreement stays in place, TiVo doesn't get the revenue it could be had they offered the service direct somehow.

For the DirecTiVo users, it represents a beacon in an otherwise uncertain sea. Then again, if DirecTV doesn't offer an MPEG4 DirecTiVo unit, this is kind of a hollow victory being unable to record HD LIL programming. Then again, I don't have any idea how many DirecTiVo customers receive HD OTA programming.

For those who are whining about software versions and the like, I suggest that you should take a tone of support as opposed to whining. Nothing should be taken for granted. While unlikely, this could have gone the other way.

[Questioner]

No way will they come out with anymore Tivo directv models in the next 3 years. Directv is in bed with microsoft and windows vista, which will allow for advanced networking features but won't be out until next year unfortunately, you will probably see models with microsoft logos on them before tivo again.

[harsh]

For those who have SD Tivos and wish to keep them, that's good news. The three year agreement takes you to 2009, when analog channels will most likely be turned off.The shut-down of analog broadcast should have very little impact on the usefulness of a DirecTiVo. The people that will lose will be those with NTSC TiVos that record from OTA because their tuners will no longer function without some sort of upgrade to remotely control an external digital receiver. This is likely not the case with cable or satellite subscribers who will continue to have NTSC modulators and/or direct outputs on their SD receivers.

TiVo will lose if they don't figure out how to get those users upgraded into digital TiVos. It would appear to be the standalone customers that are paying the bills. My market is ready to switch to digital with the exception of the PBS station which carries an entirely different programming lineup between their NTSC channel and their HD channel.

[f300v10]

Unless the D*DVR really covers my needs, and gets a 30-sec skip and all the Tivo features I love, D* will lose me when my Tivos stop working.

A new software update on the R-15 platform today added '30 second slip'. It does not 'skip' 30 seconds like TiVo, rather it fast forwards 30 seconds in around 2.5 seconds.

[harsh]

Directv is in bed with microsoft and windows vista, which will allow for advanced networking features but won't be out until next year unfortunately, you will probably see models with microsoft logos on them before tivo again.Don't confuse cooperation with selling out. Linux-based DVRs can get along just fine in an SMB environment without saddling them with gobs of Micro$oftian bloatware licensing. There are a number of freeware video LAN projects as well as TiVo Series 2 that have already proven that.

[harsh]

A new software update on the R-15 platform today added '30 second slip'. It does not 'skip' 30 seconds like TiVo, rather it fast forwards 30 seconds in around 2.5 seconds.I wondered how long it would take for someone to substitute 30 second fast forware for the 30 second "skip".

[Capmeister]

A new software update on the R-15 platform today added '30 second slip'. It does not 'skip' 30 seconds like TiVo, rather it fast forwards 30 seconds in around 2.5 seconds.

I could probably live with that. But there are other Tivo-ish things that would have to work right. We'll see what happens.

[mndwalsh]

to me this is good news

looks like D paid there way out of a lawsuit and may make the D DVR's much better. How long until the D buying TIVO rumor starts again, would be good for all (in my opinion). And an update for the HD DVR would be nice since I plan on buying in a month when my TV comes out….

[Wolffpack]

The three year agreement takes you to 2009...
I read this as a three year "extension". The current agreement is through 2007 so does this run through 2010?

[Clint Lamor]

If you read the release, they talk about Tivo for existing customers. I don't believe there will be any new Tivo models. Anything new will be their in-house DVRs. To me, the release only means that the existing tivo units will be working for 3 years before they shut them off.

Actually it will probably be a lot longer then that before they are shut off. UTV is still around. I think it just means there can now be the possibility for updates and other such things for this extended period. Not to mention the possilibility of other partnerships happening between the two companies.

[DonLandis]

I have mixed feelings on this. I had hoped that E* would buy Tivo, settle the suit and that would end the DirecTV - TIVO relationship as planned. It seems now that while DirecTV has this new extended agreement with TIVO that Not only will TIVO be a Me too in the DirecTV camp with their own line of receivers / DVRs I am concerned at what sort of unfavorable treatkment TIVO users will get from D* as an incentive to move to the D* DVR line. Then again, considering the worst case scenario, if E* did purchase TIVO, would they actually have a line of E* TIVO DVR's that really work? Maybe not. In any case, it looks like TIVO will continue to be treated like an underdog as they struggle to remain afloat. Too bad when the top design system is not the top of the line for these companies. TYhey still will promote their own first.

Just so others don't get the wrong idea, I have both E* and D* and how it falls either way doesn't matter except for the fact that I prefer the HDTIVO system over my 921. Jury's is out yet how I feel about the HDTIVO vs. the New VIP622. I suppose if they clean up the intolerable bugs in the 622 and offer the add-on hard drives, I'll like it just as much.

One thing is certain, I wouldn't have switched to D*'s MP4 DVR unless they had an incentive with additional HDTV programing on the national level. I'm not interested in havong HDTV locals in other cities nor my own as I already get them with OTA. Currently, E* has the most HDTV channels, offering me a good variety of programming. Don't care if others hate stuff like VOOM channels but I like them. So if the VIP622 gets fixed, then I may be a gonner from the TIVO camp.
I wish TIVO all the best in this renewed relationship. It can only be good for the status quo owners.

[Clint Lamor]

I seriously doubt that if TiVo came out with a new DirecTV box that D* would treat the TiVo people any different. To them they would still get money from their users and would allow them to have two product lines instead of one thus making things better for those who do not like the R** line of products.

[Proc]

This is a good thing.

D* can see that people are not happy with the R15, which means the HD crowd will really vent over the upcoming HR20-DVR. I can see them eventually buying out Tivo and putting it back into the next gen hardware.

[ad301]

I seriously doubt that if TiVo came out with a new DirecTV box that D* would treat the TiVo people any different. To them they would still get money from their users and would allow them to have two product lines instead of one thus making things better for those who do not like the R** line of products.

I agree completely. It would be very smart of D* to offer an updated version of the hr10-250, with mpeg4 support and HMO and MRV features enabled. I don't understand why they wouldn't want to do that, it would surely save them many customers who might otherwise defect to cable when the series3 becomes available. Choice is good for the customer, and other than not getting a few PPV sales from the pushed content, I don't see the downside for D*. I know, I know, they want to standardize the "DirecTV Experience", but at what cost in terms of alienated and/or lost customers? They shouldn't take it personally that many of us would to prefer to stay with an interface which we actually enjoy using. Those who don't like tivo could opt for the r15 type software models. They could even, dare I say it, take a page out of Comcast's book and charge a (slight) premium for the tivo software. Sure seems like a win-win situation to me, but what do I know? :)

[wipeout]

I bet this changes nothing, we DTivo users get no upgrade of software and/or features and no Mpeg4 unless we abandon the Tivo based units all together.

[Clint Lamor]

Yes it's highly possible that this is nthing more then D* covering it's butt in case TiVo wins the E* lawsuit. The wording we have seen stops TiVo from being able to sue D* for patent issues. In the long run though I guess we will all see what comes of this. I honestly could care less about all of my UI's looking the same, heck I have 3 different ones I use on 3 different sets and it doesn't bother me in the least. In the long run I just want products that do what I want in a reliable fashion. If thats the R** line or the TiVo line honestly doesn't matter to me.

[Wolffpack]

From one perspective....The R15 isn't going as well as DTV hoped. Yes, I'm speaking for DTV at this point but consider they released it in November and aside from the new software released in the past day or two, I'm pretty sure the R15 is not what DTV through they had.

Along with that we have no idea what's happening with the HR20. If the HR20 is based on the same software as the R15, and if it's based on the same filesystem as the R15, a very enhanced version of FAT32, there could be many more problems with the HR20 than we know about. First of which I could see being the MUCH larger HD file sizes still on a FAT32 based filesystem.

It may not be all that far fetched that while Rupert's ego orginaly "got in the way", and he thought he could get a replacement for the Tivo line to market by 2007, his tech team said it just isn't possible. Thus a contract extension.

[Wolffpack]

Yes it's highly possible that this is nthing more then D* covering it's butt in case TiVo wins the E* lawsuit. The wording we have seen stops TiVo from being able to sue D* for patent issues. In the long run though I guess we will all see what comes of this. I honestly could care less about all of my UI's looking the same, heck I have 3 different ones I use on 3 different sets and it doesn't bother me in the least. In the long run I just want products that do what I want in a reliable fashion. If thats the R** line or the TiVo line honestly doesn't matter to me.
I never did understand why DTV wanted the UI for a receiver to match the UI for a DVR. A receiver has Guide and Setup. That's it. There's much more to a DVR and the UI on a DVR shouldn't be crippled to match a UI created years ago for a receiver.

[Clint Lamor]

From one perspective....The R15 isn't going as well as DTV hoped. Yes, I'm speaking for DTV at this point but consider they released it in November and aside from the new software released in the past day or two, I'm pretty sure the R15 is not what DTV through they had.

Along with that we have no idea what's happening with the HR20. If the HR20 is based on the same software as the R15, and if it's based on the same filesystem as the R15, a very enhanced version of FAT32, there could be many more problems with the HR20 than we know about. First of which I could see being the MUCH larger HD file sizes still on a FAT32 based filesystem.

It may not be all that far fetched that while Rupert's ego orginaly "got in the way", and he thought he could get a replacement for the Tivo line to market by 2007, his tech team said it just isn't possible. Thus a contract extension.

You honestly think that if it was an ego thing that he would have given up this soon? :lol:

[Clint Lamor]

I never did understand why DTV wanted the UI for a receiver to match the UI for a DVR. A receiver has Guide and Setup. That's it. There's much more to a DVR and the UI on a DVR shouldn't be crippled to match a UI created years ago for a receiver.

I agree, actually from what I have seen of screen shots I like the Moxi interface, it looked pretty slick.

[kc1ih]

Now if only they upgrade the software to 7.x. Even without TiVoToGo the other features, Clip Overlap protection, improved suggestions, Recently Deleted folder would be a great enhancement to the current product.

I too wish they would upgrade the software on the DTV Tivo's (I think!). Are there any down sides to the newer software? Is it applicable to all DTV Tivo models (I have a Samsung 80 hr unit)?

[Paul Secic]

For those who have SD Tivos and wish to keep them, that's good news. The three year agreement takes you to 2009, when analog channels will most likely be turned off. For me with a HD-Tivo, doesn't do me much good. My OTA reception is problematic at best and horrific at worst, so I need (and have been waiting) for the MPEG-4 HD-locals. That means a new MPEG-4 DVR.

I was an E* subscriber for 6 years with an original Series 1 stand alone Tivo, but switched to D* because I wanted an integrated DBS receiver-Tivo DVR. Then I bought the HD-Tivo at a premium price, and shortly thereafter, D* dropped the bombs that Tivo would not be their future DVR supplier and that new HD channels, including locasl, would be in MPEG-4. I will probably go back to E* and lease a 622 (IMHO the best alternative to an HD-Tivo) once HD-locals are available in St. Louis.
Jan 1st. 2008 is the analog cut-off.

[cabanaboy1977]

I never did understand why DTV wanted the UI for a receiver to match the UI for a DVR. A receiver has Guide and Setup. That's it. There's much more to a DVR and the UI on a DVR shouldn't be crippled to match a UI created years ago for a receiver.

Maybe so the CSR can all be on the same page:lol:

[harsh]

Jan 1st. 2008 is the analog cut-off.February 17th, 2009 is the cut-off date. This date was chosen to insure everything would be in place prior to "March Madness".

[Alexandrepsf]

Time to put pressure on DirecTV to have our HR10-250 upgraded to the latest software.

Pick up your phones guys. :lol:

[tager]

why keep the old tivo when the new dvr is way better more functions?

[Alexandrepsf]

why keep the old tivo when the new dvr is way better more functions?

I was talking about the HD DVR. DirecTV does not have its own yet, AND, with the R15 experience that I had, I rather wait until the product is com,pletly finished before jumping on it. So until then, I would like to have my HD DTivo being upgraded to the latest software available.

[harsh]

If the HR20 is based on the same software as the R15, and if it's based on the same filesystem as the R15, a very enhanced version of FAT32, there could be many more problems with the HR20 than we know about. First of which I could see being the MUCH larger HD file sizes still on a FAT32 based filesystem.Are you sure that the R15 uses a FAT32 variant? I would have thought they would use a native *nix based file system like almost everyone else. FAT32 has a number of limitations (4GB/file, 127.5GB partitions, fixed block size, etc.). Enhancing FAT32 is kind of like slapping a supercharger on a riding mower to turn it into a daily driver (with all due deference to Jesse James of Monster Garage).

[Wolffpack]

Time to put pressure on DirecTV to have our HR10-250 upgraded to the latest software.

Pick up your phones guys. :lol:
Don't both. I sent this email this morning:
I was very pleased today to read of the contract extension between DirecTV and Tivo.

As I have 5 SD DTivo units and one HR10-250 I am interested to know if this agreement will provide further software upgrades for my units. Is there the possibility that the HR10 will be upgraded from version 3.1.5f to version 6.2 as all other DTivo units are running? There were many enhancement between 3.1.5f and 6.2 and I am sure every HD DVR customer would welcome this upgrade.
Here's the response I received...

Thanks for writing and for letting us know your concern about your DIRECTV equipment. Recently, TiVo announced changes to their service that will affect the TiVo stand alone boxes. However, we have no additional information on the changes or enhancements to the HR10 features.

Thanks again for writing. Please stay tuned to DIRECTV.com for the latest news and information about our service.

What ta heck was I thinking?

[Wolffpack]

Are you sure that the R15 uses a FAT32 variant? I would have thought they would use a native *nix based file system like almost everyone else. FAT32 has a number of limitations (4GB/file, 127.5GB partitions, fixed block size, etc.). Enhancing FAT32 is kind of like slapping a supercharger on a riding mower to turn it into a daily driver (with all due deference to Jesse James of Monster Garage).
Yes the filesystem is FAT32 based. Actually I believe it is this (http://www.computer-solutions.co.uk/chipdev/ertfs.htm) filesystem from EBSNET due to some info in the partition record. Given that, it is still FAT32 based and in this instance has a 32KB cluster size. How do you spell fragmentation? The 4GB file size has been exceeded and technically, a FAT32 partition "can" be as large as 2TB. Your riding mower analogy is quite accurate.

[Blurayfan]

I too wish they would upgrade the software on the DTV Tivo's (I think!). Are there any down sides to the newer software? Is it applicable to all DTV Tivo models (I have a Samsung 80 hr unit)?
7.x software has shown only one downside so far, random reboots. This should not effect a DirecTV DVR since the bug is apparently in the network driver which D* doesn't use. Yes this upgrade would be for all Series2 based DVRs. I would hope that includes the HR10-250 HDTiVo.

[spanishannouncetable]

Sorry I'm late to the party, guys.

(clears throat)

Wooooooooooo Hoooooooooo !!!!!!

:D :hurah: :dance: :goodjob: :icon_da: :joy: :dance07: :icon_bb: :righton:

[Alexandrepsf]

What ta heck was I thinking?

I do not want to lose my hope. The news just got announced, and I am sure that the field agents will have more info soon.

It is true that if this news means only Status-Quo for the DTivo boxes then it is NOT a good news as we already knew that they will stop stop supporting Tivo boxes even though they would stop selling them.

[Blurayfan]

I read this as a three year "extension". The current agreement is through 2007 so does this run through 2010?
Correct.

On April 7, 2006, we entered into the Seventh Amendment of our Development Agreement, dated February 15, 2002, with DIRECTV, Inc. Under this amendment, which amends the expiration date of the Development Agreement from February 15, 2007, to February 15, 2010, we will continue to provide maintenance and support for DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service through the expiration date of the Development Agreement.

[Wolffpack]

Being the optimist that I am.....when both DTV and Tivo refer to this as an extension to "provide maintenance and support for DIRECTV receivers with TiVo service" I can't help but think this should include OS upgrades for our DTivos.

Now, as before we have seen Tivo provide an OS to DTV that included MRV and HMO only to have DTV turn those features off.

In my own little world I think we'll be getting some OS upgrades on Series 2 DTivos....including the HR10.

[Earl Bonovich]

Part of my conversation a little while ago with my contact.... A couple things

1) Nothing is changing with DirecTV's plan... the new DVR platform is the direction they are heading.
2) The extension had a lot of reasoning behind not, some we have seen in the releases... some we haven't. He didn't go much into very specific details.

Also, not related to the extension... HR10-250 updates are in the works, we may even possible see them by the end of Q2....

[RAD]

Also, not related to the extension... HR10-250 updates are in the works, we may even possible see them by the end of Q2....

PLEASE LET THAT BE TRUE!

[Earl Bonovich]

What a way to start Page 3 of the thread.... :D

[Clint Lamor]

Hmmmm I wonder if they could read that post up on the ISS? :lol:

[mya23rd]

I think this is nothing more than an extension to continue offering uninterrupted Tivo service to DTV customers. DTV know that it is going to take a very long time, at least a few years to get everyone to move over to their own DVR. New customers will only get their new DVR and pretty soon new HD customers will only be able to get their in-house HD DVR whenever it comes out. So this is basically to keep the tons of existing DTV Tivo customers happy. I doubt anyone with a DTivo box will give it up for the new DVR box, at least not most of the people who read this forum. It's almost as if it's going to take 3 years for all existing Tivo boxes to die, after which DTV will only sell their own DVR's. I'm not giving mine up until my box dies and even then I think I would just buy one off ebay or something.

As many people noted, it seems like the big issue is whether they will issue a software upgrade. I mean why not if they have extended the agreement for 3 more years. It really sucks not to be able to use the cool new features like Tivo2Go and Folders that Tivo has rolled out. It feels like using a computer with Windows 98 or something and not being able to upgrade. I hope shortly they will announce that a new software upgrade will be avaialble.

This definitely changes things in terms of getting an HD Tivo. Although the HD Tivo cannot get the MPEG 4 channels, I have to say I must now recondsider my previous decision to avoid the HD Tivo. I was a bit weary of getting the HD Tivo in case they stopped supporting it once the new HD DVR is released sometime later this year. I can pick up locals pretty well thru an OTA so it might not be a bad idea.

One question I have is, it says something about DTV Continuing to service DTivo boxes. Does that mean if I'm an existng DTV customer with SD Tivo and HD Tivo boxes that if something happens to them, say the hard drive dies, DTV will replace them with another SD or HD Tivo box. If one of my Tivos dies I would want them replaced with other Tivos, not the new DTV DVR's.

[Clint Lamor]

Well the major issue here is that just because their agreement with TiVo was ending it didn't mean they had to shut off the DirecTiVo boxes. It simply meant they couldn't send anymore out and from what I have gathered from past threads on the subject was that they no longer had to pay TiVo.

Now I have NO idea why this new deal was done but I would guess there are some pretty good reasons for it. Ego or not Rupert Murdoch isn't stupid and you don't get to where he is by making a lot of stupid business decisions.

[Questioner]

PLEASE LET THAT BE TRUE!

Unless it allows for mpeg 4 viewing, which it won't, or at least mpeg 4 to mpeg 2 conversion, which I doubt, big deal. They should spend the effort getting the modern hd recorder out.

[gglockner]

The key phrase for me is the following: "By extending our agreement with TiVo, we are ensuring quality support for DIRECTV customers who already own a DIRECTV TiVo unit." This doesn't say anything about new DVRs or even software upgrades.

And when I upgrade to HDTV, I am planning to jump to cable because of the Series 3 TiVo. I'm not interested in the current HDTiVo due to the lack of MPEG4 support.

I'd love to believe that an MPEG4 DTiVo is in the works, but this press release doesn't lead me to that conclusion.

[RAD]

Unless it allows for mpeg 4 viewing, which it won't, or at least mpeg 4 to mpeg 2 conversion, which I doubt, big deal. They should spend the effort getting the modern hd recorder out.

Tivo does the software for the HR10-250 so whatever work they do should have no impact on the MPEG4 box since NDS is doing that code. And it is a big deal for folks have have the SD Tivo's with the newer code vs. the HD box that's running the old/slow code since Dan Collins over at DBSForum is saying what he hears is the MPEG4 box won't be out until late this year, if not early 2007.

[Questioner]

If it doesn't come out until early 2007, directv is in serious trouble. Last I heard was september at the latest, but who knows.

[Earl Bonovich]

If it doesn't come out until early 2007, directv is in serious trouble.

Why do you say that?

It is not like ther is any other MPEG-4 DVR out there... and TiVo Series 3 (T3)
Still doesn't have a launch date, nor solid rumored one

The Comcast TiVo powered DVR is more or less vapor ware....

It would be "good" to continue much longer without an MPEG-4 DVR, but I would say they are in "serious" trouble.

[Questioner]

Why do you say that?

It is not like ther is any other MPEG-4 DVR out there... and TiVo Series 3 (T3)
Still doesn't have a launch date, nor solid rumored one

The Comcast TiVo powered DVR is more or less vapor ware....

It would be "good" to continue much longer without an MPEG-4 DVR, but I would say they are in "serious" trouble.

They will survive, but as soon as more people realize it is delayed that long, a ton more people are going to be switching to cable to get local hd channels and hd recording, as if enough haven't already. I don't think the average person cares about mpeg 4 recording vs mpeg 2 as they do being able to see local hd (which on many cable systems looks better than directv anyway) and record it in some capacity.

[Nick]

"In addition, TiVo and DIRECTV agree not to assert patent rights against the other." Very shrewd move on D*'s part -- kiss up to TiVo now to preempt an otherwise inevitable patent lawsuit like the one going on against E* right now.

[ad301]

Why do you say that?

It is not like ther is any other MPEG-4 DVR out there... and TiVo Series 3 (T3)
Still doesn't have a launch date, nor solid rumored one

The Comcast TiVo powered DVR is more or less vapor ware....

It would be "good" to continue much longer without an MPEG-4 DVR, but I would say they are in "serious" trouble.

The series3 is expected in the 2nd half of this year. You've seen that mentioned by tivo reps over on tcf. If you don't think it will be trouble for D* to compete with the series3 with...NOTHING..., then you are just whistling past the graveyard. If tivo and the cable companies are smart, they will promote the hell out of it, and D* could then only counter with....NOTHING.

And BTW, to bring up vapor ware takes some pair, considering D*'s current situation. :)

[Clint Lamor]

The series3 is expected in the 2nd half of this year. You've seen that mentioned by tivo reps over on tcf. If you don't think it will be trouble for D* to compete with the series3 with...NOTHING..., then you are just whistling past the graveyard. If tivo and the cable companies are smart, they will promote the hell out of it, and D* could then only counter with....NOTHING.

And BTW, to bring up vapor ware takes some pair, considering D*'s current situation. :)

The current situation that they have one box on the market and another one on it's way? Not sure how I see this as a bad thing, but it's possible I am missing something here. Cable is a concern for anyon in the business I agree but at least here you will never get me to go back to cable it sucked big time. The only real threat I see for me leaving D* anytime soon is FiOS and I have NO clue when it will ever mak my neighbordhood.

[Wolffpack]

The current situation that they have one box on the market and another one on it's way? Not sure how I see this as a bad thing, but it's possible I am missing something here. Cable is a concern for anyon in the business I agree but at least here you will never get me to go back to cable it sucked big time. The only real threat I see for me leaving D* anytime soon is FiOS and I have NO clue when it will ever mak my neighbordhood.
I believe this line of discussion started with:
If it doesn't come out until early 2007, directv is in serious trouble. Last I heard was september at the latest, but who knows.
...in regards to the HR20.

While early 2007 is a rumor, I agree with that statement. If DTV cannot get a MPEG4 HD DVR, scratch that, a dependable MPEG4 HD DVR on the streets until 2007 that indeed will be bad. The dependability of the one box already on the market is questionable.

Right now cable should be a BIG concern for DTV as with cable you can get HD locals and you can get a HD DVR to record those locals for little or no cost on lease. With DTV you have no option. Only a HD receiver for locals and a HD Tivo that will not receive HD locals.

It could very well be possible that DTV underestimated the task they were embarking on. As I have mentioned in other threads, if the HR20 is based on the R15, they could be running into some basic design problems.

[ad301]

The current situation that they have one box on the market and another one on it's way? Not sure how I see this as a bad thing, but it's possible I am missing something here.
The current situation, in my opinion, is that D* is currently pushing a box which doesn't work properly for a significant, possibly very high, percentage of users. In addition, even if they are able to eliminate all the bugs, which is a very open question, they are still pushing a box which has significant capabilities missing compared to their previous dvr family.

Also, the HD DVR is nowhere to be seen (aka vaporware), and when/if it is released, it will likely have the same limited feature set as the r15. (I may be wrong about that, but since it is vaporware, no one really knows. But it is said to be based on the same code as the r15.)

Meanwhile, the Home Media Center which was being touted at CES 2 years ago, has never been seen, and likely never will. Maybe we'll see a MCE add-in card someday, but I'll believe it when I see it.
Cable is a concern for anyon in the business I agree but at least here you will never get me to go back to cable it sucked big time. The only real threat I see for me leaving D* anytime soon is FiOS and I have NO clue when it will ever mak my neighbordhood.
It's too bad cable is so bad in your area. One thing the r15 showed me was that I do have an alternative. After I sent back my r15 in November and started to reconsider my provider options, I've come to find that cable in my area is actually pretty good now. It surprised me to find this, but the HD picture I get through cable is FAR superior to the HD Lite I get through D*, and when the series3 becomes available, cable suddenly becomes a completely viable alternative to D* for me. I see it as a role reversal. Where D* had always been the technology leader in my eyes, I feel they are going backwards, and the technology available on the cable side is about to get alot better. I still shake my head in disbelief about this, since I've been a long time D* fan and booster. They're going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat within the next six months or so to keep me.

[squawk]

Have skimmed over these posts from the past 2 days. Certainly don't know it all, but my initial reaction after reading yesterday's press release regarding the extension of DTV's agreement with TiVo was that their own DVR software is worse than expected.

I'm a new HDTV owner, & actually waited more than a year after DTV announced Jan '05 of its intent to migrate to MPEG-4. At the time I was poised to purchase a DTV HD DVR wTiVo, but quickly deferred that decision b/c it was clear that MPEG-2 machines had a relatively limited life going forward. Also at the time, DTV stated that their MPEG-4 HD DVR would be released sometime April . . . 2005. As we all know that was a crock of kaka, & since then the release date of the MPEG-4 HD DVR has continually been pushed back. Last "official" release date I was told was "mid-2006" by a DTV Sr VP @ their booth @ CES 2006. I dunno whether that date is still good, or whether rumors that it's now pushed back to 4Q2006 have any merit.

Telling to me was the newsrelease in Nov/Dec 2005 that cited all the software problems DTV was experiencing with their SD MPEG-4 HD DVR, which I presume is the R15. I decided to finally take the HDTV plunge a couple months ago b/c I couldn not wait any longer, & made the decision to "survive" with the H20, & still record with my 6-year old Replay 2000 DVR.

Unfortunately, my experience with the H20 has been hellacious. There are so many bugs with the software, prone to crashing a couple weeks, & problems with the MPEG4 feeds that I wish I had purchased the HR10-250 instead with my rebate offer in February.

I live in LA, so I get both MPEG-4 as well as MPEG-2 feeds of local HD programming. I can tell you there is no difference in the video quality. DTV has chosen not to offer LA customers any less compression that would allow better video quality that MPEG-4 can offer within the same bandwidth.

It is also my conclusion that we will not see any national HD feeds in MPEG-4 format until the Spaceways are up & running towards the end of 2007. I have to think that the extension with TiVo is the result of the problems DTV (NDS) is having with their "home-grown" equipment. It's gonna take them longer than expected to get their equipment to operate smoothly. Additionally, it appears DTV is also experiencing issues with their MPEG-4 feeds & the ability of their equipment to process & properly sync the audio with the video. I have to think the MPEG-4 A/V issue also entered into the decision to extend the TiVo service agreement.

To me, this means that the HR10-250 will have a longer life than expected. Does it mean that there's possibly a MPEG-4 successor to the HR10-250 that uses the TiVo UI? I would hope so, but I sorta doubt it. The future of TiVo's relationship cannot be determine from just this agreement. It could be the 1st step toward a more solidified relationship, or it could just be an extension of the current "dead-end." JMO.

[archervox]

A new software update on the R-15 platform today added '30 second slip'. It does not 'skip' 30 seconds like TiVo, rather it fast forwards 30 seconds in around 2.5 seconds.


I have an R-15. How do I use this feature?

[Donnie Byrd]

I have an R-15. How do I use this feature?

archervox, Welcome to DBSTalk. :)

More detailed info on this particular feature can be found on the R15 Forum: http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=60&f=106

[PeeWee10]

Hi, was reading through the thread (relatively new to forums), and was wondering what to expect exactly in the 2009 (or earlier?) timeframe for my currently functioning D* R10 .... Will D* be shutting off service to it, or does "end of support" simply mean that they won't continue to own any problems I may happen to have with it?

[jpl]

Hi, was reading through the thread (relatively new to forums), and was wondering what to expect exactly in the 2009 (or earlier?) timeframe for my currently functioning D* R10 .... Will D* be shutting off service to it, or does "end of support" simply mean that they won't continue to own any problems I may happen to have with it?

Ok, I KNOW this is getting way off topic, but I just had to complement you on your avatar. While not their best album/cd, Pat Metheny is one of the best jazz guitarists going... just had to throw that out there :)

[tstarn]

Hi, was reading through the thread (relatively new to forums), and was wondering what to expect exactly in the 2009 (or earlier?) timeframe for my currently functioning D* R10 .... Will D* be shutting off service to it, or does "end of support" simply mean that they won't continue to own any problems I may happen to have with it?

You might want to post a new thread on this issue. We have two R10s and two more in reserve (got them on ebay), but I believe that it will be a long time before Directv turns off the MPEG2 programming. Whether or not that means R10s will be usable after 2009, not sure. But as some have noted, there are millions of customers out there with Directivo boxes for SD, and converting them all to R15s (just bit my tongue) is going to take time. By then, maybe they will renew the agreement with Tivo for the stragglers who still want to use R10s. As far as tech support, that's already a moot point. If your R10 dies, it's toast, unless you fix it yourself.

By support, they mean shutting off service, not fixing/replacing it if it breaks. If that were to happen, they send you an R15.

[Wolffpack]

By support, they mean shutting off service, not fixing/replacing it if it breaks. If that were to happen, they send you an R15.
I would tend to think that once support ends (in February 2010 IIRC) that would mean that changes DTV makes in the data stream, like they did in December, would not be addressed and any units not capable of handling those changes, like DTivos, would be then rendered unusable.

[harsh]

I would tend to think that once support ends (in February 2010 IIRC) that would mean that changes DTV makes in the data stream, like they did in December, would not be addressed and any units not capable of handling those changes, like DTivos, would be then rendered unusable.The agreement extension was announced on April 12, 2006, so the end may be before Tax Day 2009. If DirecTV fails to differentiate their own receivers from whatever TiVo patents that they are concerned about and TiVo still exists, they may extend the agreement again at that point.

[Wolffpack]

The agreement extension was announced on April 12, 2006, so the end may be before Tax Day 2009. If DirecTV fails to differentiate their own receivers from whatever TiVo patents that they are concerned about and TiVo still exists, they may extend the agreement again at that point.
Correct, but...again....IIRC the past agreement was through now, February 2007. So the 3 year extension would take that through February 2010. They signed the extension in April 2006 but it extended the original contract for three years.

Don't quote me on any of this. I read something somewhere, which I can't remember. But those were the dates I recalled.

[dhaakenson]

The agreement extension was announced on April 12, 2006, so the end may be before Tax Day 2009. If DirecTV fails to differentiate their own receivers from whatever TiVo patents that they are concerned about and TiVo still exists, they may extend the agreement again at that point.

Or get sued by TiVo.

[newsposter]

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2006/tc20060413_742910.htm?chan=technology_technology+i ndex+page_more+of+today's+top+stories

The two sides noted that current DirecTV-TiVo customers will be able to keep their TiVo service through February, 2010.

[Dbadone]

For those who have SD Tivos and wish to keep them, that's good news. The three year agreement takes you to 2009, when analog channels will most likely be turned off. For me with a HD-Tivo, doesn't do me much good. My OTA reception is problematic at best and horrific at worst, so I need (and have been waiting) for the MPEG-4 HD-locals. That means a new MPEG-4 DVR.

I was an E* subscriber for 6 years with an original Series 1 stand alone Tivo, but switched to D* because I wanted an integrated DBS receiver-Tivo DVR. Then I bought the HD-Tivo at a premium price, and shortly thereafter, D* dropped the bombs that Tivo would not be their future DVR supplier and that new HD channels, including locasl, would be in MPEG-4. I will probably go back to E* and lease a 622 (IMHO the best alternative to an HD-Tivo) once HD-locals are available in St. Louis.


It wont affect the standard tivo's either. All the 2009 directive from the fcc is digital signal which is exactly what directv sends out anyways and your receiver is a digital receiver. The Directive from the FCC is not a HD DIGITAL SIGNAL just digital signal. There is a huge misunderstanding in what the FCC has ordered.