Post 10B8: Priorities

[Wolffpack]

Allow me to put my flack jacket on......Okay, yes, the R15 development team has made some improvement in the unit since it was released and I acknowledge that. However, given the current R15 software (10B8) this is still a DVR that doesn't work and even in it's current state, IMHO is not ready to be released.

The following is a prioritized list of the reason I believe the R15 is still not a product that should have been released to customers:


SLs: Not being able to tell the difference between a first run and a repeat. This really bugs me as they put the place holders in the GUI to handle this feature yet do not seem to be able to pull it off. You can say you only want first runs....but oh, too bad, soo sad. No code behind that to make it work.
History....or lack there of. Again, somewhere, someone knew the R15 needed recording history, probably like what the Tivos have. They have a menu entry but there is no substance behind that entry. Nothing worth even checking as many have mentioned here. When debugging problems with recording shows, a properly working history would be tons of help.
SLs Again the fact that you cannot setup multiple SLs for a series that airs on different channels. What? Hasn't anyone even heard of The X-Files or Seinfeld?
Limits: A limit on the number of SLs and the number of TODO items? Crazy. Sure, when you're in early development of an application you can place limits on some "tables" but before you release those to your users you remove those limits. Plus as there are limits it implies the use of tables, which is VERY scary as far as I'm concerned.
Keep At Most Logic: Or again, lack there of. If the R15 is suppose to work the way it is current working, why not remove the KAM or KU fields? Setting them to different values produces the same results.
Hangs & Reboots/Guide Data: I've lumped these all together since if the R15 didn't hang/reboot as much as it does, storing the Guide Data in memory wouldn't be that big of a deal. But since it does have these hang/reboot problems, not storing the Guide Data on the HD is ridiculous. Something needs to be fixed. If the R15 was still in development one would expect popup windows with diagnostic info so the developers could determine the execution path and what might be causing the problem. Maybe DTV should consider turning these debugging popups (the code must still be there) on for selected volunteers in this forum. By access card turn on the debugging info and let us users that run into the problems help solving the problems. Just a thought.


Now keep in mind. I've only listed these items as items that, in my mind, should have been resolved before the R15 started hitting the streets. There are many other fixes that are needed, but these are issues that should have prevented the products release. Now here we are 5 months later and these products still exist.

30 second SLIP, great and yes, I have seen more stability but not what one should expect. But we still have these core, huge, problems.

Yes we need to keep getting upgrades. But we REALLY need to start seeing one or two MAJOR problems being fixed in each upgrade. We need to see progress.

[ad301]

...Yes we need to keep getting upgrades. But we REALLY need to start seeing one or two MAJOR problems being fixed in each upgrade. We need to see progress.
Well said.

[qwerty]

The following is a prioritized list of the reason I believe the R15 is still not a product that should have been released to customers:


Is #1 the highest priority or the lowest? Hmm...let me re-read that FAQ. :lol:

I completely agree (Except I would put the lockups/freezing as #1).

[MrCuda74]

I agree with Wolffpack. I think the R15 was definitely hurried to market for some reason. I've been a loyal DirecTV subscriber for 11+ years as best I remember. Owned Tivo and DirecTivo's since they have been out. Up to the R15 release I have been very happy. If DirecTv had asked me to use and abuse it as a beta tester I would have done so and been glad to help as long as they provided the unit and didn't charge me a monthly fee. But when I bought the R15 and pay the fee for a 2nd receiver it should work as advertised or at least very closely. We should be getting paid for all the troubles the R15 has caused. I have lost key shows this season and had so much agravation that it's really turned me sour on DirecTv. They should at least give all the R15 owners a couple of free pay-per-views each month or something since they have forced everyone into being beta testers. I sure hope they get it together soon as I really miss my old reliable SD DirecTivo that the R15 replaced. Thankfully I still have a very well working HR10-250 but I need the R15 due to space requirements. Come on DirecTV get it right and I will start singing praises to all again about DirecTv.

[army1]

Allow me to put my flack jacket on......Okay, yes, the R15 development team has made some improvement in the unit since it was released and I acknowledge that. However, given the current R15 software (10B8) this is still a DVR that doesn't work and even in it's current state, IMHO is not ready to be released.

The following is a prioritized list of the reason I believe the R15 is still not a product that should have been released to customers:


SLs: Not being able to tell the difference between a first run and a repeat. This really bugs me as they put the place holders in the GUI to handle this feature yet do not seem to be able to pull it off. You can say you only want first runs....but oh, too bad, soo sad. No code behind that to make it work.
History....or lack there of. Again, somewhere, someone knew the R15 needed recording history, probably like what the Tivos have. They have a menu entry but there is no substance behind that entry. Nothing worth even checking as many have mentioned here. When debugging problems with recording shows, a properly working history would be tons of help.
SLs Again the fact that you cannot setup multiple SLs for a series that airs on different channels. What? Hasn't anyone even heard of The X-Files or Seinfeld?
Limits: A limit on the number of SLs and the number of TODO items? Crazy. Sure, when you're in early development of an application you can place limits on some "tables" but before you release those to your users you remove those limits. Plus as there are limits it implies the use of tables, which is VERY scary as far as I'm concerned.
Keep At Most Logic: Or again, lack there of. If the R15 is suppose to work the way it is current working, why not remove the KAM or KU fields? Setting them to different values produces the same results.
Hangs & Reboots/Guide Data: I've lumped these all together since if the R15 didn't hang/reboot as much as it does, storing the Guide Data in memory wouldn't be that big of a deal. But since it does have these hang/reboot problems, not storing the Guide Data on the HD is ridiculous. Something needs to be fixed. If the R15 was still in development one would expect popup windows with diagnostic info so the developers could determine the execution path and what might be causing the problem. Maybe DTV should consider turning these debugging popups (the code must still be there) on for selected volunteers in this forum. By access card turn on the debugging info and let us users that run into the problems help solving the problems. Just a thought.


Now keep in mind. I've only listed these items as items that, in my mind, should have been resolved before the R15 started hitting the streets. There are many other fixes that are needed, but these are issues that should have prevented the products release. Now here we are 5 months later and these products still exist.

30 second SLIP, great and yes, I have seen more stability but not what one should expect. But we still have these core, huge, problems.

Yes we need to keep getting upgrades. But we REALLY need to start seeing one or two MAJOR problems being fixed in each upgrade. We need to see progress.


well you said it better then i did, but i was keeping it short, i like your version better

[Wolffpack]

well you said it better then i did, but i was keeping it short, i like your version better
Thanks army. While there are many GUI/button press issues, I'd like to see the main issues addressed. I also think everyone else on this forum would like to see the same. So DTV guys, what can we expect when? Time to step up to the plate.

How 'bout the May 21st release at the minimum solves the First Run issue? You can do it. We're accustom to monthly releases now. So I'm issuing a challenge to the DTV R15 development staff. Get the SL first run issue fixed by May 21, 2006 and I'll go where ever you are and host an evening of merriment. I am very serious here....that is as long as you guys aren't outside the US. I can't afford that.

Any takers?

[Guindalf]

I'm not defending D* by any means, but find me a product that is NOT rushed to market before it's ready!

Being from the UK, I grew up thinking that there were so many cool things available in the US that I couldn't get. Now, after living here for the last eight years, I know why. It's this very reason. Most things in the UK are more expensive, but they work - for two reasons. One, they are tested BEFORE being released and two, the retailer is responsible for warranty for (usually) a minimum of ONE YEAR from the date of purchase. This means they will not sell anything that has too high a rate of return as it will eat into their profits, making what they do sell better.

Perhaps it's time this attitude was adopted by the Circuit Citys and Best Buys of this country!


BTW: I was forcing an update while I wrote this and I didn't get it! Still on 10AF - Earl?

[Earl Bonovich]

If things go well over the weekend... The release "should" go full release next week.

[ronw41]

Well said.

Absolutely!

Ron

[cabanaboy1977]

Being from the UK, I grew up thinking that there were so many cool things available in the US that I couldn't get.

That's funny, I've always thought the reverse. Everything that was cool was in the UK.... Red Dwarf, Doctor Who, MI-5, Double decker bus, London, etc..

[ronw41]

I agree with Wolffpack. I think the R15 was definitely hurried to market for some reason. I've been a loyal DirecTV subscriber for 11+ years as best I remember. Owned Tivo and DirecTivo's since they have been out. Up to the R15 release I have been very happy. If DirecTv had asked me to use and abuse it as a beta tester I would have done so and been glad to help as long as they provided the unit and didn't charge me a monthly fee. But when I bought the R15 and pay the fee for a 2nd receiver it should work as advertised or at least very closely. We should be getting paid for all the troubles the R15 has caused. I have lost key shows this season and had so much agravation that it's really turned me sour on DirecTv. They should at least give all the R15 owners a couple of free pay-per-views each month or something since they have forced everyone into being beta testers. I sure hope they get it together soon as I really miss my old reliable SD DirecTivo that the R15 replaced. Thankfully I still have a very well working HR10-250 but I need the R15 due to space requirements. Come on DirecTV get it right and I will start singing praises to all again about DirecTv.

Excellent points indeed! I couldn't have stated it any better.
I totally agree.

Ron

[walters]

Just wanted to add that as a developer, I'd have implemented #2 very early, probably before there was a usable UI. How do the developers expect to debug a scheduler when they aren't even logging when and why the scheduler does or doesn't do things? Maybe they do and it just isn't end-user-friendly, yet.

[ISWIZ]

How 'bout the May 21st release at the minimum solves the First Run issue? You can do it. We're accustom to monthly releases now. So I'm issuing a challenge to the DTV R15 development staff. Get the SL first run issue fixed by May 21, 2006 and I'll go where ever you are and host an evening of merriment. I am very serious here....that is as long as you guys aren't outside the US. I can't afford that.

Any takers?

Cost you dinner for 1 person.:lol:

[ISWIZ]

Also, one that is important and has not been mentioned lately is the fact that reboot/reset suring a recording looses the recording in process rather thatn just the break in the middle.

[Bobman]

Funny but its always the same person involved in negative R-15 threads.:rolleyes: Seems a lot easier to just stop using it and stick to the TCF if your that unhappy. Simple, stop using it and use your DirecTiVo if you like it that much and the R-15 doesnt do what you want it to.

As for faulting DirecTV for rushing the R-15, if you check around MANY other DVR's have been released with problems (Comcasts Motorola 6412 and just about all EchoStars to name a few). I can even find things wrong with my DirecTiVo after all these years and that supposedly the standard everyone seems to go by.

Mom and Pop Smoe and probably 90% of users will not even notice any of the 6 issues above.

[cybok0]

Mom and Pop Smoe and probably 90% of users will not even notice any of the 6 issues above.


Just because Mom and Pop Smoe doesn't notice any of the issues, that doesn't mean we should just deal with it because the masses do not.:rolleyes:

[ISWIZ]

Funny but its always the same person involved in negative R-15 threads.:rolleyes: Seems a lot easier to just stop using it and stick to the TCF if your that unhappy. Simple, stop using it and use your DirecTiVo if you like it that much and the R-15 doesnt do what you want it to.

As for faulting DirecTV for rushing the R-15, if you check around MANY other DVR's have been released with problems (Comcasts Motorola 6412 and just about all EchoStars to name a few). I can even find things wrong with my DirecTiVo after all these years and that supposedly the standard everyone seems to go by.

Mom and Pop Smoe and probably 90% of users will not even notice any of the 6 issues above.

This negative quote came from Bobman:

I will try the 30 second slip like everyone else and I realize that it was probably one of the most requested features next to dual buffers. I just feel that we need an update soon that concentrates on the SL issues and tweaking the slugglishness / hesistation. Maybe even removing/changing the limits so we dont get conflict messages and have to delete one show that we want to record so we can add another.


Bobman,

It is never wrong to point out problems with equipment, even multiple times. We all have done it. If everything were perfect there would be no need for a forum. If you look at the TCF forum you also see lots of "negative" posts. Look at this as an "opportunity" for some "corrective action" in the "administrative process". Or some other corporate mindspeak. Where I work we change "slogan buttons" every 6 months to combat employee complacency. We're DTV's mental stimulation.;)

[cabanaboy1977]

It is never wrong to point out problems with equipment, even multiple times. We all have done it. If everything were perfect there would be no need for a forum.

I'm going to do it too. I've said it before and I'm staying it again. It seems that if they would have removed the SL/todo list limit they wouldn't have had to come up with patches for to fix the todo list. They wouldn't have had issues with recordings falling off the todo list and never coming back if it didn't have a limit. I know it's been said that if they increase the limit it will effect the speed, but I'm sure they could increase the todo list to 300 or 400 and the SL to at least 100 or 200 and 98 or 99% of people would be fine. I know this isn't Tivo or UTV but they didn't have limits and don't have issues with SL's or things dropping of the the Todo lists. The only good thing I see about the patch/fix for the todo list, is when they do remove/increase the limit we won't have to worry about things falling off the Todo list.

[morgantown]

Bobman,

It is never wrong to point out problems with equipment, even multiple times. We all have done it. If everything were perfect there would be no need for a forum. If you look at the TCF forum you also see lots of "negative" posts. Look at this as an "opportunity" for some "corrective action" in the "administrative process". Or some other corporate mindspeak. We're DTV's mental stimulation.;)

Well said. For the record there are a heck of a lot of people that complain about specific "features" of the R15, or the lack thereof. To make it sound like Wolf is the only one is quite a stretch. His points are valid and well spoken, hardly rants (remember that "other" poster that comes around time to time?).

As much as some (including me) complain, the reverse is also true there are some that have drank too much of the Kool-aid. My $0.02 says that the valid complaints do more to provide DirecTV with areas to focus their attention and benefit all users.

Complaining about complaints does not really add much to the discussion :D .

Off soapbox.

Have a great weekend all -- you too Bobman.

[wohlfie]

Well said. For the record there are a heck of a lot of people that complain about specific "features" of the R15, or the lack thereof. To make it sound like Wolf is the only one is quite a stretch. His points are valid and well spoken, hardly rants (remember that "other" poster that comes around time to time?).



You mean chri..., uh, yanci..., uh, never mind....
(wouldn't it be nice if the R15 had 178 tuners?):lol:

I gotta say though, no offense Bobman, that while Wolffpack may be 'hard' on the R15 at times, I too find his comments mostly reasonable and informative. Plus, as I remember, he is about the only one posting the inner workings, file structure, etc. It doesn't seem to me that he is knee-jerk hating it....

That being said, I also sort of agree that his list of top items IS NOT my list and IMHO not the list of most 'basic' users (like me!!).

The first run thing is annoying, stupid and borderline incompetent, but does it really bother us that bad? Just some extras to delete...which is pretty easy.

I have said it before (and I WILL say it agian) the biggest things to fix for me are:

1) Changing channels FIVE minutes before resets

2) Jumpback bug while watching something currently being recorded (ok - technically JUST AFTER something was recorded)


I will be a pretty happy camper once those are fixed (since the R15 hasn't missed 'Lost" or 'The West Wing" in over a month).

(editted to spell Wolffpack with two "f"s )

(editted again to spell 'spell' with both 'l's.....:))

[qwerty]

Mom and Pop Smoe and probably 90% of users will not even notice any of the 6 issues above.

You've got to be kidding me. You don't think Mom and pop Smoe and 90% of users would notince when their box locks up?

[Wolffpack]

(editted to spell Wolffpack with two "f"s)
Thank you wohlfie!

[MrCuda74]

To me the top fixes/changes are:
1) rerun versus first run
2) the 5 minute popup window
3) keep until I delete actually works
4) different channel SL's


Now on top of that something I have always wished my Tivo had is a "Delete up to what I watched" type option. What I mean is if I have a recording of 4 hrs of Golf/Basketball/Football and I watch 3 hrs of it but have to stop but I need more space I could select an option to delete the portion of the recording up to where I am so the remaining hour is all that is taking up space. I have a DVD burner with a HDD that allows me to do that.

[morgantown]

Aaaah. Dual Buffers!

:)

[ApK]

I'm not defending D* by any means, but find me a product that is NOT rushed to market before it's ready!


1. Lots of things are ready. VCRs for example. My first vcr recorded everytime I pressed down those two huge play and record buttons. XBOX. Play station, defribulators. Lots of things. We're not talking perfection. We're talking basic functionality working reliably.

2. "Everyone else it doing it" is not a valid excuse or argument, didn't you parents tell you? I'm sure if D*'s mom knew what state the R15 was in at initial release, the conversation would have ended something like "Oh, so Microsoft does it like this all the time, eh? If Microsoft jumped off a bridge, would you do it too? Go to your room."

ApK

[Wolffpack]

There are many other items that need to be addressed with the R15, but again, my original list contained items I saw a being "show stoppers" as to why the R15 shouldn't have been released and, as they are still problems, why the R15 still isn't ready for prime time, IMO.

The 5 minute problem has been mentioned quite often, but I must ask if those that are getting this message only have one tuner running. DTivos have the same type of message. It states in 2 minutes, the Tivo will need to change channels, is this ok. You click ok and it will change channels at that time. No big deal. But on my DTivos with two SAT feeds I almost never see this message. I'm bringing this up because I'm thinking (in my own little mind) that if this is coming up on R15s with two SAT feeds that often that it is this much of a problem possibly the R15 isn't managing it's dual tuner capability correctly.

Let's think about it. If you get that message, wouldn't you assume the other tuner is already scheduled to record a different show? How many times do each of you have both tuners scheduled to record shows at the same time you're watching a live show? Again, that's almost never on my DTivos connected to dual SAT feeds.

For the record, my R15 only has one feed so I do see that message. But there are very few circumstances I would expect to see that with dual SAT feeds.

[Clint Lamor]

You've got to be kidding me. You don't think Mom and pop Smoe and 90% of users would notince when their box locks up?

I have had 1 lockup and that was a LONG time ago. I am well above an average user also. So the 90% number doesn't hold water. We have no idea how many people have this issue.

[Clint Lamor]

1. Lots of things are ready. VCRs for example. My first vcr recorded everytime I pressed down those two huge play and record buttons. XBOX. Play station, defribulators. Lots of things. We're not talking perfection. We're talking basic functionality working reliably.

2. "Everyone else it doing it" is not a valid excuse or argument, didn't you parents tell you? I'm sure if D*'s mom knew what state the R15 was in at initial release, the conversation would have ended something like "Oh, so Microsoft does it like this all the time, eh? If Microsoft jumped off a bridge, would you do it too? Go to your room."

ApK

Xbox? Are you serious? How about you go read all the Xbox forums and about the updates that have been pushed out for it. Heck the SECOND game I put in my Xbox 360 had to update the machine before I could play and then the minute I put it online it had to be updated again. Saw the same issues with my original Xbox also.

Yes I agree some of the R15s issues should have been fixed before release but rarely will you see a piece of hardware or software released without issues in this day and age. I don't agree with it but it's a cold hard fact.

[leesweet]

Ditto on the original list. I posted elsewhere about the history and the lack of the 28-day rule. My bad. If there's no history, there's sure no way to do a 'don't record something I recorded/watched/deleted'. Seems like an obvious feature.

As for complaints, IMHO these aren't complaints. They are requests for improvement. *Every* software package vendor gets requests for improvements from clients. Now, what's implemented and when is another story.

Of course, we can say all of these items should have been there originally, and if we'd beta'd it, perhaps they would be or are on D* future feature list (do all feature requests come from them?). But (1) I don't know how many of these would have violated Tivo IP/Patents *at the time* and (2) time-to-market/rush-to-market, as noted, is always a factor. There wasn't a Tivo extension/no-sue-for-use-of-Tivo-features when development was happening.

Having said all that, I agree that a DVR (as consumer electronics for Joe6Pack) needs to be as bulletproof as possible. Last comment: back when I was in a beta group for one release of ReplayTV (shoot me, are they even around to complain? :) ), the group came up with a ton of issues, since we pounded the box to death.

Does D* do that with advanced users like us'n? Replay recruited from AVS and perhaps someone at D* needs to do the same for real testing. Of course, I bet someone here will say 'Sheet, that's what's we *are* doing'. :) [This was a real beta, though, before it was pushed to J6P.)

Sorry for the long post!

[ApK]

The 5 minute problem has been mentioned quite often, but I must ask if those that are getting this message only have one tuner running.

Nope, two tuners, and though I've not monitored it closely enough to be sure, it seems to popup regardless of if both tuners are busy or not, and it pops up even if I'm watching a RECORDED show, NOT one of the tuners! That's all bad enough, but it would be a nothing but minor annoyance hardly worth mentioning if it just ACTUALLY waited 'til the needed time before changing channels, like Tivo does!

ApK

[ApK]

Xbox? Are you serious?
OK, bad example. I should have known better than to include any MS product on the list.

Yes I agree some of the R15s issues should have been fixed before release but rarely will you see a piece of hardware or software released without issues in this day and age. I don't agree with it but it's a cold hard fact.

Fact is people are murderd every day. Is that some sort of argument to keep murdering people? I'll say it again: 'everyone else does it' is NOT a valid argument!

I'm a developer. I work on large systems. Perfection is not possible, I know that. Consumer goods have a lower standard in order to be priced correctly than, say, pacemakers, I know that, too. But if I charge money for scanning software, it better darn well scan when they push the scan button. If I buy a digital video recorder, it better darn well record when I set it to.

[cabanaboy1977]

Nope, two tuners, and though I've not monitored it closely enough to be sure, it seems to popup regardless of if both tuners are busy or not, and it pops up even if I'm watching a RECORDED show, NOT one of the tuners! That's all bad enough, but it would be a nothing but minor annoyance hardly worth mentioning if it just ACTUALLY waited 'til the needed time before changing channels, like Tivo does!

ApK

Yep, I've had the same things happen too. Kids will be watching Nick and it will ask if it's ok to change the channel even though only one show is going to record, so it should be able to use the other tuner. I haven't got the message to change the channel with while watching a recorded show in awhile. But i think it's the same issue as the jumpback button where you get that message if you watching a show semi-live.

[qwerty]

I have had 1 lockup and that was a LONG time ago. I am well above an average user also. So the 90% number doesn't hold water. We have no idea how many people have this issue.

I think you missunderstood. The 90% wasn't my number. I was responding to Bobman's comment on wolfpack's original list.
"Mom and Pop Smoe and probably 90% of users will not even notice any of the 6 issues above."

And, I had no problems with lock-ups prior to 10AF. This week, I've had at least 5.

Maybe we should have a poll to see how many have never had freezing/lock ups, how many have had a few, and how many have had them frequently.

[Wolffpack]

Nope, two tuners, and though I've not monitored it closely enough to be sure, it seems to popup regardless of if both tuners are busy or not, and it pops up even if I'm watching a RECORDED show, NOT one of the tuners! That's all bad enough, but it would be a nothing but minor annoyance hardly worth mentioning if it just ACTUALLY waited 'til the needed time before changing channels, like Tivo does!

ApK
That is interesting. If the R15 doesn't need the tuner you're watching as the other tuner is available, why bother with the message? Go ahead and switch the other tuner and leave the user alone.

[Clint Lamor]

OK, bad example. I should have known better than to include any MS product on the list.



Fact is people are murderd every day. Is that some sort of argument to keep murdering people? I'll say it again: 'everyone else does it' is NOT a valid argument!

I'm a developer. I work on large systems. Perfection is not possible, I know that. Consumer goods have a lower standard in order to be priced correctly than, say, pacemakers, I know that, too. But if I charge money for scanning software, it better darn well scan when they push the scan button. If I buy a digital video recorder, it better darn well record when I set it to.

Hmmm so Scanner products are never updated? The software is never changed because of problems it has? Should it work? YES it should. Mine works fine and records everything I tell it to, doesn't lock up. Yes I get a lot of stuff recorded that I don't want but as far as doing what a DVR is supposed to it does that without issue.

[Clint Lamor]

I think you missunderstood. The 90% wasn't my number. I was responding to Bobman's comment on wolfpack's original list.
"Mom and Pop Smoe and probably 90% of users will not even notice any of the 6 issues above."

And, I had no problems with lock-ups prior to 10AF. This week, I've had at least 5.

Maybe we should have a poll to see how many have never had freezing/lock ups, how many have had a few, and how many have had them frequently.

Sorry :)

I have said numerous times the lockups are something that bother me, you get a lot of users lik Earl, Me and many others here that never see them, then others who see them all the time. The question is why? Whats different on these machines.

[grifta67]

How many times do each of you have both tuners scheduled to record shows at the same time you're watching a live show? Again, that's almost never on my DTivos connected to dual SAT feeds.



Quite often at my house. The 8-11pm programming block is a busy one, and we're usually recording something off Discovery and something off the networks.

This is where my biggest disappointment with the SLs come up. It doesn't seem to realize that most of the cable channels replay the 8p-11p programming from 11p-2a. So instead of recording Lost and Amazing Race at 9 and then Mythbusters when it replays at midnight, it just wont record Mythbusters at all... (Those might not air at 9, just using them for example...)

-Sean

R15 Patience Space [/////////////////////////.............] 25% Available

[cabanaboy1977]

Sorry :)

I have said numerous times the lockups are something that bother me, you get a lot of users lik Earl, Me and many others here that never see them, then others who see them all the time. The question is why? Whats different on these machines.

Clint, you have never had on lockup or that the unit freeze for a long period of time (more than a min.)? I still think that 90% of them have to do with the amount of SL's you have and how often those are on (basically how much of the Todo list it fills). I have had lockups happen daliy or ever other day before on 2 of mine, but lately they have been ok (well last night I did have to reset one, but I haven't had to reset it in the last 3 weeks). They usally start slowing down while i'm in the GUI and if I wait they will finally start going, but it usally is a sign that it will lockup soon. The last tell tale sign is bring up a GUI screen and only seeing part of it. In contrast the other unit that I have doesn't have alot of SL and my roommate says it never locks up.

[Wolffpack]

Number of SLs does make a difference. I'm loading mine up for more testing and as I hit 25 SLs the system performance went into the dumper. Although no hangs there are pauses of 10-20 seconds.

[ad301]

Sorry :)
I have said numerous times the lockups are something that bother me, you get a lot of users lik Earl, Me and many others here that never see them, then others who see them all the time. The question is why? Whats different on these machines.
Well, one thing that's different is that you are not, as far as I know, using any auto-recording finds. I don't think they are the only thing which causes lockups or missed and partial recordings, but I can almost guarantee you that if you add 5 or 6 auto-records to your prioritizer, you will start to see problems. Try adding one for your local MLB team, one for your NHL team, and one for your NBA team, and maybe a couple for favorite music acts, a favorite actor or two, maybe a couple of favorite movies, etc..... Why not give it a try? If your box can handle that for a week with no problems, then maybe you really do have a different box, and D* ought to get their hands on it to find out what the difference is.

[ApK]

Hmmm so Scanner products are never updated? The software is never changed because of problems it has?

Since your posts in general seem to indicate that you're logical and literate enough to know that what you posted above in no way follows from what I said, I can only figure that you are intenionally being difficult or unreasonable for some reason.

You individual experience with the R15 is lucky, as is mine. Too many others have reported far more severe problems and our Illustrious Connected Moderator has reported that D* is aware of -- and is working on -- the most severe problems.

Just in case I've overestimated you: Of course our software get updated. Issues with with minor features or fringe cases get through, get detected, and then, usually, get fixed.
But if the software didn't do what it was sold to do, and we kept the customers money anyway, we'd lose the customer and maybe get sued.

[MrCuda74]

I'm bringing this up because I'm thinking (in my own little mind) that if this is coming up on R15s with two SAT feeds that often that it is this much of a problem possibly the R15 isn't managing it's dual tuner capability correctly.


I get this message quite often. I do have two tuners going. I will try and check next time I get it.

[Clint Lamor]

Clint, you have never had on lockup or that the unit freeze for a long period of time (more than a min.)? I still think that 90% of them have to do with the amount of SL's you have and how often those are on (basically how much of the Todo list it fills). I have had lockups happen daliy or ever other day before on 2 of mine, but lately they have been ok (well last night I did have to reset one, but I haven't had to reset it in the last 3 weeks). They usally start slowing down while i'm in the GUI and if I wait they will finally start going, but it usally is a sign that it will lockup soon. The last tell tale sign is bring up a GUI screen and only seeing part of it. In contrast the other unit that I have doesn't have alot of SL and my roommate says it never locks up.

I have had 1 lockup on the machine and I think 1 or mayb two additional times where it sat for a while then finally went on it's way. I currently have 36 SL's in the list and some of them are recorded 1-2 times every day.

[Clint Lamor]

Well, one thing that's different is that you are not, as far as I know, using any auto-recording finds. I don't think they are the only thing which causes lockups or missed and partial recordings, but I can almost guarantee you that if you add 5 or 6 auto-records to your prioritizer, you will start to see problems. Try adding one for your local MLB team, one for your NHL team, and one for your NBA team, and maybe a couple for favorite music acts, a favorite actor or two, maybe a couple of favorite movies, etc..... Why not give it a try? If your box can handle that for a week with no problems, then maybe you really do have a different box, and D* ought to get their hands on it to find out what the difference is.

No I don't have any auto-records. I would set one up for the local teams but I don't like them :) I ws born and raised in Michigan so my two teams are back there. :lol:

[Clint Lamor]

Since your posts in general seem to indicate that you're logical and literate enough to know that what you posted above in no way follows from what I said, I can only figure that you are intenionally being difficult or unreasonable for some reason.

You individual experience with the R15 is lucky, as is mine. Too many others have reported far more severe problems and our Illustrious Connected Moderator has reported that D* is aware of -- and is working on -- the most severe problems.

Just in case I've overestimated you: Of course our software get updated. Issues with with minor features or fringe cases get through, get detected, and then, usually, get fixed.
But if the software didn't do what it was sold to do, and we kept the customers money anyway, we'd lose the customer and maybe get sued.

My statement was very much to the point of what you said. You mde a statement that I didn't agree with, I have been in the electronics/computer/software business in mny roles for far too long to know that most products released have issues.

I am not discounting the problems of most users at all and do count myself as lucky for getting a box that doesn't seem to have the stability issues that some others here have. I don't agree that the box doesn't do what it's supposed to do though, I have never had an episode missed that wasn't user error or that I didn't know why it happened a least after the fact, once again that doesn't mean that there was no issue (as we know there was and it's been fixed for all who had it) it simply means I didn't run into the issue.

Oh and BTW I have seen MANY pieces of software released that didn't do what it was supposd to do when released into the wild and in some cases it caused damage to the OS it was installed on and other such issues. I don't agree with the fact that these issues happened but I also know (in one case fist hand) that the software was very well tested internally.

[Wolffpack]

I don't agree that the box doesn't do what it's supposed to do though, I have never had an episode missed that wasn't user error or that I didn't know why it happened a least after the fact, once again that doesn't mean that there was no issue (as we know there was and it's been fixed for all who had it) it simply means I didn't run into the issue.
Does your unit record first runs only when instructed to do so? Wouldn't you agree that when you flag a SL a First Run it should only record First Run? Yet you think the box is doing what it's suppose to?

If your R15 hasn't missed recording a show, you are indeed lucky. I have seen a show in the TDL only an hour before it was to record yet it didn't record and history showed no mention of that show. This was all before 10B8. I have not had this problem with 10B8.

BTW, now with the TDL at 99 and 43 SLs, the response of the unit isn't too bad. I loaded up about 20 SLs yesterday and the performance went really south. But today I loaded 8 more and it's not running too bad. MYVOD is at 77% available. History, for what it's not worth, is at 50.....DUH. I'm kinda guessing that the prioritization of processes on the R15 isn't quite tuned in yet. There should be no way the scheduler should have priority over user interface, at least not without some type of "please wait" message. Obviously, not many users will add 20 SLs in a day. But some new users will. While it's an extreme test, it should be taken into account by the software.

Oh, and just a comment on History. If the info stored in History doesn't tell you anything, and you limit it to 50 entries, just dump it. It's completely useless in it's current form/limit.

[ad301]

No I don't have any auto-records. I would set one up for the local teams but I don't like them :) I ws born and raised in Michigan so my two teams are back there. :lol:
Clint, you don't have to actually watch anything you record. :) And there are still movies, actors, bands, vacation destinations, recipes, hobbies..... All those things are good ways to make use of WLs or auto-records. Again, if your box can handle 5 or 6 auto-records without causing any problems, that could be information that the developers need to know. What is different about your box?

[ApK]

There is an unfortunate side effect of Capitalism*, in that for a given dollar amount, people tend to try to deliver as little as they have to, rather than as much as they can.

Information technology based consumer items are in the middle of a decades-long transitional phase, moving from complicated specialist systems to simple information appliances.

We, as the early adopters and enthusiast users, have an opportunity to set the bar as to what the market will bear in terms of the quality/performance/price equation.

I'm just suggesting we set the bar a little higher. Let's start to demand a little more quality and be willing to pay a bit more for it, and lets be unwilling to accept quality less than that at any price.

All you folks who's R15 haven't recorded what you've told it to, or haven't played back what you've recorded, or haven't paused when you told it to pause, have you called D* to get your money back yet?
Who's with me?! Solidarity! Attica!! Attica!!

ApK

*To borrow from a saying about Democracy: Capitalism is the worst economic system ever devised, except for all the others.

[Clint Lamor]

Does your unit record first runs only when instructed to do so? Wouldn't you agree that when you flag a SL a First Run it should only record First Run? Yet you think the box is doing what it's suppose to?

If your R15 hasn't missed recording a show, you are indeed lucky. I have seen a show in the TDL only an hour before it was to record yet it didn't record and history showed no mention of that show. This was all before 10B8. I have not had this problem with 10B8.

BTW, now with the TDL at 99 and 43 SLs, the response of the unit isn't too bad. I loaded up about 20 SLs yesterday and the performance went really south. But today I loaded 8 more and it's not running too bad. MYVOD is at 77% available. History, for what it's not worth, is at 50.....DUH. I'm kinda guessing that the prioritization of processes on the R15 isn't quite tuned in yet. There should be no way the scheduler should have priority over user interface, at least not without some type of "please wait" message. Obviously, not many users will add 20 SLs in a day. But some new users will. While it's an extreme test, it should be taken into account by the software.

Oh, and just a comment on History. If the info stored in History doesn't tell you anything, and you limit it to 50 entries, just dump it. It's completely useless in it's current form/limit.


Is the box meant to record shows? Does it record those shows? Yes

Does it annoy me that it records too much of a certain show? You bet it does but I would far rather have it record too many shows then not enough.

As for the history for all the use it is right now it should be history :)

[Clint Lamor]

Clint, you don't have to actually watch anything you record. :) And there are still movies, actors, bands, vacation destinations, recipes, hobbies..... All those things are good ways to make use of WLs or auto-records. Again, if your box can handle 5 or 6 auto-records without causing any problems, that could be information that the developers need to know. What is different about your box?

I'll set some up when I get back in town and see what it does.

[Clint Lamor]

There is an unfortunate side effect of Capitalism*, in that for a given dollar amount, people tend to try to deliver as little as they have to, rather than as much as they can.

Information technology based consumer items are in the middle of a decades-long transitional phase, moving from complicated specialist systems to simple information appliances.

We, as the early adopters and enthusiast users, have an opportunity to set the bar as to what the market will bear in terms of the quality/performance/price equation.

I'm just suggesting we set the bar a little higher. Let's start to demand a little more quality and be willing to pay a bit more for it, and lets be unwilling to accept quality less than that at any price.

All you folks who's R15 haven't recorded what you've told it to, or haven't played back what you've recorded, or haven't paused when you told it to pause, have you called D* to get your money back yet?
Who's with me?! Solidarity! Attica!! Attica!!

ApK

*To borrow from a saying about Democracy: Capitalism is the worst economic system ever devised, except for all the others.


I don't think it's as much as the bar isn't high but that in the wild many problems pop up that never did in the testing phase. This is one of the major reasons I am a huge fan of a far wider testing audience.

When you give said products to true end users and have them put it through the wringer as they would other such products this is when the true problems will rear their heads. I think this is one place where companies like D* hav sort of missed the boat, they have some very dedicated and loyal users here and they need to utilize the potential.

How do they do this? Well I have plenty of ideas but they didn't ask me :lol:

[ApK]

I don't think it's as much as the bar isn't high but that in the wild many problems pop up that never did in the testing phase. This is one of the major reasons I am a huge fan of a far wider testing audience.

A profit-driven organization will not pay any of the costs associated with larger testing operations if they don't have to. Why should they, if the customers are wiling to pay, and pay the same, even if they cut testing short, put the product team on to some other billable project, and release the product with more issues then they otherwise would have?

They have asked you...they've asked all of us. We answer with our wallets.
And with our keyboards, here, hopefully....

ApK

[Clint Lamor]

A profit-driven organization will not pay any of the costs associated with larger testing operations if they don't have to. Why should they, if the customers are wiling to pay, and pay the same, even if they cut testing short, put the product team on to some other billable project, and release the product with more issues then they otherwise would have?

They have asked you...they've asked all of us. We answer with our wallets.
And with our keyboards, here, hopefully....

ApK

Well we really didn't answer with our wallet's seeing as many people here got them free after th rebate. :)

There are many companies that are turning to more public beta's as they get a broader look at the problems that arise when people use the software and such in the real world. I hope the trend continues to grow as it makes for better products in the end.

[ad301]

I'll set some up when I get back in town and see what it does.
Fair enough.

[ApK]

Well we really didn't answer with our wallet's seeing as many people here got them free after th rebate. :)


Yeah, that's why I'm pretty relaxed about it, myself. I still may ask for a few months of my $5.95 monthly fee back, however.
Those folks who already have a DTivo and are therefore paying NOTHING for the R15, have only their time and frustration at stake, but still. . . .

Also, one of the reasons I ditched Comcast was that I was paying for digital cable (which includes VOD) and the VOD was broken more than it worked. Service calls never did anything. The final straw was, I complained that I was tired of paying for a service that didn;t work. The rep said "You're not paying for it, it's free!"
I wanted to hunt him dowm and bash his head in, along with the person who trained him to say that. Instead, I metaphorically said "No, genius, I am paying for it regardless of how you market individual features. Here, watch, this is what NOT paying for it looks like: " and I cancelled my account and went to DTV.

ApK

[ad301]

You guys that have free r15s, how do you get around the 4.99/mo mirror fee?

[dgib]

You guys that have free r15s, how do you get around the 4.99/mo mirror fee?
We don't. It still has to be paid but since I replaced my HDVR2 with the R15, it's a wash.

[Clint Lamor]

Yeah, that's why I'm pretty relaxed about it, myself. I still may ask for a few months of my $5.95 monthly fee back, however.
Those folks who already have a DTivo and are therefore paying NOTHING for the R15, have only their time and frustration at stake, but still. . . .

Also, one of the reasons I ditched Comcast was that I was paying for digital cable (which includes VOD) and the VOD was broken more than it worked. Service calls never did anything. The final straw was, I complained that I was tired of paying for a service that didn;t work. The rep said "You're not paying for it, it's free!"
I wanted to hunt him dowm and bash his head in, along with the person who trained him to say that. Instead, I metaphorically said "No, genius, I am paying for it regardless of how you market individual features. Here, watch, this is what NOT paying for it looks like: " and I cancelled my account and went to DTV.

ApK

Ya I agree it is very frustrating at times, got a little less once I found the mark and delete feature. :)

I had a similar thing happen with Verizon, called to complain about my phone service, rep told me too bad you can't get local phone service from anyone. Said I had to deal with it. I laughed said ever heard of VoIP, NO? Need to learn what it is oh and BTW cancel my service right now as i'm ordering Vonage. That was now 3.5 years ago and I have NEVER looked back.

[Clint Lamor]

You guys that have free r15s, how do you get around the 4.99/mo mirror fee?

I hav the DVR fee, but I dropped another receiver so it all sort of works out.

[ajseagles3]

The original post of this thread is by far the best post I've read on this forum.

Well said, Wolffpack.

[ad301]

I'll set some up when I get back in town and see what it does.
Clint, have you had a chance to try this?

[Clint Lamor]

Clint, have you had a chance to try this?

No I was only home for a day and had to go back out of town again. It has been a hecti work month. I am hoping to get a down week coming here pretty soon.

[Mr. Furious]

For me, the top two are 1) SLs recognizing first run/repeats properly (and, in the case of a conflict, still recording the next showing of a first-run) and 2) lockups.

One that would also be really nice, however, would be to either fix "Channels I Get" or make it something that can be edited. It's completely useless as it is currently, and it screws up Find Bys because it picks up channels that I don't subscribe to.

[Bud33]

I'm not defending D* by any means, but find me a product that is NOT rushed to market before it's ready!

Being from the UK, I grew up thinking that there were so many cool things available in the US that I couldn't get. Now, after living here for the last eight years, I know why. It's this very reason. Most things in the UK are more expensive, but they work - for two reasons. One, they are tested BEFORE being released and two, the retailer is responsible for warranty for (usually) a minimum of ONE YEAR from the date of purchase. This means they will not sell anything that has too high a rate of return as it will eat into their profits, making what they do sell better.

Perhaps it's time this attitude was adopted by the Circuit Citys and Best Buys of this country!


BTW: I was forcing an update while I wrote this and I didn't get it! Still on 10AF - Earl?

Thats probably why all the British cars (especially Jag) were such a mess until American Manufactures took them over.
I,m not saying Our Quality assurance is the best, but this sounds like the pot calling the kettle black:nono2:

[ApK]

Off the top of my head, I'm having a hard time coming up with a list of things that were invented and built in the UK, as opposed to being developed and field tested elswhere first, other than Jags, which, as pointed out, weren't a great example. Can you name a few? Is there some British DVR we should be using as a benchmark of quality?

I'm all in favor of paying more and demanding higher quaility, at any rate.

[ApK]

Off the topic, but while I'm thinking about it: there's two polar-opposite schools of thought I just can't see how any thinking person holds as true:

1. If one other product has ANY flaws, that somehow justifies any number of blatant and severe problems in a given product. ("My Tivo recorded a repeat by mistake once two months ago, so that's exactly the same as the R15 always recording them and locking up 10 time a week.")

2. Any one product works very well, so all products, regardless of being totally unrelated, in another industry and another market, should be held to the same standards. ("My $4000 Rolex Sub Mariner watch has worked since day one, why isn't my $99 DVR as reliable?")

tsk tsk tsk :rolleyes:

[Wolffpack]

Off the topic, but while I'm thinking about it: there's two polar-opposite schools of thought I just can't see how any thinking person holds as true:

1. If one other product has ANY flaws, that somehow justifies any number of blatant and severe problems in a given product. ("My Tivo recorded a repeat by mistake once two months ago, so that's exactly the same as the R15 always recording them and locking up 10 time a week.")

2. Any one product works very well, so all products, regardless of being totally unrelated, in another industry and another market, should be held to the same standards. ("My $4000 Rolex Sub Mariner watch has worked since day one, why isn't my $99 DVR as reliable?")

tsk tsk tsk :rolleyes:
Well put.

I just go with the obvious. If a company comes out with a replacement for some product or service it produces, I would expect the replacement to be as good, and hope better, than the unit being replaced. I don't care how the replacement was developed in house, purchased, OEMed or outsourced.

Widget 2.5 must perform as well as Widget 2.0 and should perform better. Otherwise The Acme Company needs to keep Widget 2.0 as it's flagship Widget until Widget 2.5 is ready.

[SENATOR]

So far I've had 2 lockups while using the search by name function.

Also, when both tuners are set to record at the same time, I get the 5 minute pop-up window. Only option is to watch one of the shows being recorded to to play something from my recorded list. The window is annoying.

[Earl Bonovich]

When you do a search by name, how long do you wait till you determin it has locked up.

[ad301]

I'll set some up when I get back in town and see what it does.
Had a chance yet?

[Clint Lamor]

Had a chance yet?

I setup one for Detroit Basketball games and it has't caused any havoc yet. :) Not sure if one is enough or not?

[ad301]

Repeating from earlier in this thread:

Clint, you don't have to actually watch anything you record. And there are still movies, actors, bands, vacation destinations, recipes, hobbies..... All those things are good ways to make use of WLs or auto-records. Again, if your box can handle 5 or 6 auto-records without causing any problems, that could be information that the developers need to know. What is different about your box?

[Clint Lamor]

Well mine is doing all Detroit basketball games and has been for a little while now. I will setup a few more, just figured if I am going to try and hurt the box ma as well get something out of it that I like. :)