View Full Version : 622 Hard Drive Never Stops Spinning.
Man, this can't be right - the hard drive in my vip622 spins constantly, day and night, even when it is turned off. Can this be as simple as updating the software? How do I check to see what version of the software is installed? Thanx, gang.
Marriner
05-04-06, 03:33 PM
The ViP622 gets updates from E* when it is off. It automatically updates software and program guide at night and loads them onto the hard drive while you are sleeping. To check the software version press the 'menu' button on your remote twice.
Sid is asking why the 622's drive doesn't spin down like the 5XX series of DVRs do.
I don't know the answer. I do know that my 921 also doesn't spin down.
Until they add that feature, I can't have a HD DVR in my bedroom since the TV is right beside the bed.
Sid is asking why the 622's drive doesn't spin down like the 5XX series of DVRs do.
I don't know the answer. I do know that my 921 also doesn't spin down.
Until they add that feature, I can't have a HD DVR in my bedroom since the TV is right beside the bed.
If the 622 is based on Unix OS (like the 921 is), the hard drive will always continue spinning and can't be changed with a software update.
If the 622 is based on Unix OS (like the 921 is), the hard drive will always continue spinning and can't be changed with a software update.
Lujan, how can I check if the 622 is Unix based?
Lujan, how can I check if the 622 is Unix based?
I have no idea, but I thought I read some where that it was UNIX based.
Both the 921 and the 622 use the Linux OS.
davidxlai
05-04-06, 06:28 PM
It is most likely Linux based because E* won't need to pay a license fee. And using Linux should not prevent it from stopping the disk.
I have no idea, but I thought I read some where that it was UNIX based.
It is most likely Linux based because E* won't need to pay a license fee. And using Linux should not prevent it from stopping the disk.
UNIX/Linux, same thing. This is an old topic from the 921 discussions. I even posed the question live on Charlie Chat one time. They said that because it is not based on Windows, it is not possible to completely stop the unit unless it is unplugged. After two and a half years, I think that it is time to give up on this one. At least the 622 is so much quieter than the 921 I don't even notice that it is continually running.
Mine don't spin down either. Such a waste of electricity.
gitarzan
09-23-06, 05:58 PM
Mine don't spin down either. Such a waste of electricity.
I agree. My 622 uses 53 watts 24 x 7 on or off.
gschroed
09-24-06, 01:50 PM
If the 622 is based on Unix OS (like the 921 is), the hard drive will always continue spinning and can't be changed with a software update.
The 622 does use Linux. But Linux does not prevent the HD from being stopped when it is not in use. I have 4 computers running Linux, and all of them have been set to spin down the HD when it has not been used for a specified time.
The 622 does use Linux. But Linux does not prevent the HD from being stopped when it is not in use. I have 4 computers running Linux, and all of them have been set to spin down the HD when it has not been used for a specified time.
I don't know Unix or Linux. I was just repeating what was said when I posed this question during one of the Tech Chats.
P Smith
09-24-06, 04:14 PM
You're repeating nonsense, don't be 'a parrot' - ask ppl who knows or run Linux computers - there is no problem to spin down disk. Period.
I don't know Unix or Linux. I was just repeating what was said when I posed this question during one of the Tech Chats.
They were lying. Most modern hard disk drives have the ability to speed down the head movements to reduce their noise output.
Linux has a command line interface to manage the state of the disk: HDPARM
You're repeating nonsense, don't be 'a parrot' - ask ppl who knows or run Linux computers - there is no problem to spin down disk. Period.
Don't shoot the messenger. If this continues, I will not repeat anything I hear from E* technicians or Tech chats. What is the purpose of this forum if you're going to chastise information that is heard.
P Smith
09-24-06, 07:38 PM
I have no credential to those statements ( as you see other knowledgeable ppl too)
don't insist in words of other if you don't have knowledge - be honest and agree it was BS :)
Ron Barry
09-24-06, 08:15 PM
Ok guys.. Lets not get personal here. Tech Chats and CCs often are quoted even if the information seems inaccurate or later turns to be not true. I don't know if the distro that E* is using has a spin down capability, my guess is it does and I would suspect the reason for it not spinning down is because Dish does not want to take the hit on spin up.
Like Lujan said, he was only relaying information from a Tech chat he heard and that is all. As to the lying.. Well unless you are prevy to the what exactly is include in the E* code base, I would not go that far.
Ok.. so I guess it is time to go ask a Linux expert.. I will tomorrow. ;) Anybody know the Distro E* code base is based on? Is it a full Linux or an embedded flavor?
Ohh and lets try to keep this conversation at a professional level.
This (http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/products/receivers/dvr/sourcecode/) site offers some of the modified Linux code for the Dish Network receivers. Some of the code contains comments indicating debian and some red hat, so who knows. It looks like it is modified by Echostar so it may not be strictly any specific distribution any longer.
gsarjeant
09-25-06, 09:14 AM
This (http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/products/receivers/dvr/sourcecode/) site offers some of the modified Linux code for the Dish Network receivers. Some of the code contains comments indicating debian and some red hat, so who knows. It looks like it is modified by Echostar so it may not be strictly any specific distribution any longer.
I haven't had a chance to really dig, but it looks like that GLinux link is a patch to the 2.4.31 linux kernel. The other link contains patches to some programs and utilities, notably e2fsprogs (http://e2fsprogs.sourceforge.net/), so it's likely that they're using ext3 (or perhaps ext2) as the filesystem, possibly with some modifications.
Linux has been able to manage hard drive spindown since well before 2.4.31, and there's certainly nothing about ext2/3 that would cause problems with it. I'd be pretty surprised if any of E*s modifications actually disabled that ability at the kernel level. It's much more likely the case that they choose to disable it at bootup (via hdparm) for some reason, as Ron suggested.
gsarjeant
09-25-06, 09:35 AM
I'm still trying to figure out exactly how the 622 works, so this may be a silly question, but are the tuners "live" even when the device is off? I know the outputs are disabled (or at least, they only display the screen saver), but are the inputs still active? If so, and if the unit always stores a temporary buffer for live programming, then wouldn't the hard disk have to spin constantly?
I'm not sure, and I also don't know if the 522 worked in a similar fashion; it's just a stab.
Ron Barry
09-25-06, 09:40 AM
Well if they display the screen saver then the outputs are not disabled. Still hot, just not showing the inputs. ;)
Actually I thought that might be the reason, but if you place the box in standby and take it out, the buffers are empty which makes me believe that no buffering occurs while in standby. That is how I remember it, but my memory could be wrong since that is the first thing that goes.
gsarjeant
09-25-06, 09:42 AM
That would certainly make more sense. Oh well, it was a fun theory for 5 minutes. :)
koralis
09-25-06, 12:53 PM
If the 622 is based on Unix OS (like the 921 is), the hard drive will always continue spinning and can't be changed with a software update.
That isn't true. The motherboard Bios can dictate spinup and spindown, and ATA commands can be sent to hard drives in linux to accomplish it as well.
The answer is basically that even when "off" the 921 and 622 are constantly recording, so you wouldn't shut it off. Personally, I think there should be a menu setting that allows you to go into low power mode when you turn off the button and no timers are pending. (when a timer is approaching, then the OS can spin up the hard drive, etc.)
normang
09-25-06, 03:15 PM
The 508 when you took it out of standby would show a graphic if your TV were on, showing that it was waiting for the disk to spin up and begin to buffer, it would only take a few seconds it seems. Not sure why they've elected not to do that on the new DVR's.
gsarjeant
09-25-06, 03:19 PM
The answer is basically that even when "off" the 921 and 622 are constantly recording, so you wouldn't shut it off.
Is this confirmed? There are now conflicting reports of this behavior in this thread. It would be nice to have a definite answer on this.
P Smith
09-25-06, 04:44 PM
921 is different, if you not scheduled it will spin down; 622 have new feature - VOD what keep disk running. Check thread(s) where ppl discuss excessive heat in the 622.
The 508 when you took it out of standby would show a graphic if your TV were on, showing that it was waiting for the disk to spin up and begin to buffer, it would only take a few seconds it seems. Not sure why they've elected not to do that on the new DVR's.
That is how the 508 USED to behave, but the update that introduced VOD changed it to keep the drive spinning as well. Before you could put it in standby, come back 10 minutes later and the drive would not be spinning - you'd get the "Please wait for hard drive to spin up" (close) message. That doesn't happen now. There are a few times I've seen that message on the 508 since the update, but I don't know the circumstances to cause it. I guess they made it a "new DVR"? :) Without yet making it a NBR DVR. :(
921 is different, if you not scheduled it will spin down;...
Read your postings before you submit them. This posting makes no sense. I had the 921 and it never spinned down just like the 622 except it was a lot louder.
normang
09-25-06, 07:23 PM
That is how the 508 USED to behave, but the update that introduced VOD changed it to keep the drive spinning as well. Before you could put it in standby, come back 10 minutes later and the drive would not be spinning - you'd get the "Please wait for hard drive to spin up" (close) message. That doesn't happen now. There are a few times I've seen that message on the 508 since the update, but I don't know the circumstances to cause it. I guess they made it a "new DVR"? :) Without yet making it a NBR DVR. :(
Before I retired my 508, It got the VOD upgrade, and didn't really notice that the HD was still spinning, though I had always thought that my 508 was really quiet to begin with, as I used to have a relatively noisy 501 for a while before getting the 508. So it may indeed have changed behavior and I never noticed. Though I am not even sure why VOD would need to keep the drive spinning.. Just spin it up when a VOD Transfer begins and then down again when its done. How tough can this be?
P Smith
09-25-06, 08:19 PM
I don't have it now, but L174, L177 DID spin down.
I have had a 921 since 3 months after launch. I have never noticed it spinning down. The 501 still spins down.
gsarjeant
09-26-06, 08:55 AM
Before I retired my 508, It got the VOD upgrade, and didn't really notice that the HD was still spinning, though I had always thought that my 508 was really quiet to begin with, as I used to have a relatively noisy 501 for a while before getting the 508. So it may indeed have changed behavior and I never noticed. Though I am not even sure why VOD would need to keep the drive spinning.. Just spin it up when a VOD Transfer begins and then down again when its done. How tough can this be?
It wouldn't even have to be handled by the VOD software. It's a drive setting (you issue a command with hdparm to set the drive to spin down after a specified period of inactivity). If this change was made for VOD, I'm not sure why it's necessary. Perhaps there's something about the VOD implementation that runs into problems if it has to wait for the drive to spin up? I can't imagine what that would be.
It could also be the case that there is something writing to the disk periodically, which would cause it to spin up every few minutes anyway. I could see them choosing to leave the disk spinning for that reason (though it would be preferable not to have that sort of logging), but I'm not sure what that process would be, either.
P Smith
09-26-06, 09:35 AM
I have had a 921 since 3 months after launch. I have never noticed it spinning down. The 501 still spins down.
I would concur - if you opinion based on the sound from 921, then it's coming from a fan. Have you run it open and put your ear close to the disk or touched it ?
If people are worried about power, modern drives don't use very much. I don't remember what the 622 uses, but a Seagate LD25 only uses 3 watts, and that's while it's doing a seek. Most of the power being used really isn't the drive, it's the rest of the electronics.
So, from a power point-of-view, the drive is virtually insignificant. Additionally, the 622 does housekeeping in standby, such as the nightly fsck. Finally, there's one engineering camp that argues that the spinup/spindown cycle puts more stress on the drive than just leaving it running. Personally, I suspect this isn't nearly as true as it was years ago. Back then, the motor driver current was significantly higher during spinup, which translates to more stress on the driver chips. Now, the drive spindles have much lower inertia and require a lot less power to spin up. The only other consideration would be bearing wear in a constantly running drive. A mechanical engineer friend assures me that the loading on the bearings is so light that the bearings will last a very long time. He's probably right; I have a Linux box that's been running constantly (without disk powerdown) for 6 years now.
So, this really isn't a big issue. Plus, there's nothing you can do about it anyway.:)
gsarjeant
09-27-06, 08:15 AM
I've also never had a hard disk failure in any of my linux boxes, some of which I built to use as PVRs and one of which I have also had running for 4 or 5 years now. However, I do always set my drives to spin down, mostly for heat and noise issues. I'm not terribly concerned about drive failure, although logic dictates that an spun-down drive is less likely to run into problems than one that is spinning all the time (assuming it's not just spinning up again every couple minutes).
Those LD25s are 2.5 inch drives that come in 20 and 40 GB capacities. While designed for these sorts of applications, I don't think they're sufficient for the 622, which has a 320 GB hard drive. Seagate's 320 GB drives consume 12.6 W in seek, 9.3 W in idle and 0.8 W in standby. I've read here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=611165&postcount=104) that the 622 consumes 50-55 watts on or off. If the hdd power consumption is in line with those Seagate drives, then just spinning the drive down would result in about a 20% drop in overall power consumption. That's pretty significant.
The other concern with these sorts of devices is heat. There are a lot of sophisticated electronics in pretty close quarters in the 622. People attach fans to the unit to blow out hot air, so anything that can be done to remove a source of heat from the inside sounds like a good idea to me. Obviously, the hard drive will generate more heat spinning than not.
I still have a hard time believing that the drive actually needs to be spinning all the time, and I guess that's the major issue for me. If someone could say "Well, for reason X, the unit just has to keep the hard drive spinning and there's no way around it", I'd shrug my shoulders and say "ok". But if it doesn't have to spin, then I don't see why it should.
I may not be typical, but I actively watch tv for 0-2 hours on weekdays and perhaps 4-6 a day on weekends during football season, dropping back to 1 or 2 during the rest of the year. I record perhaps 2 hours of content a day, on average. Some of this overlaps with my watching time, but let's just say that I've got 4 total hours of activity on a given weekday and up to 8 on weekends.
I would be surprised if the nightly maintenance on the unit required more than 2 hours. A nightly fsck would take almost no time at all if they're using a journaled filesystem. The program guide update shouldn't take more than a few minutes. Downloading VOD content is probably the most time-consuming step, but even that should be manageable within a 2-hour window.
My personal usage estimates are pretty generous, and I'm assuming my maintenance activity estimate is as well. So, on a typical weekday, my 622 would only need to be active for 6-10 hours. That leaves me with 14-18 hours of time that the unit could be consuming less power and generating less heat. Over time, that adds up.
So, this really isn't a big issue. Plus, there's nothing you can do about it anyway.
No, but it is something about which someone can do something. I'm not convinced that it's not a big issue, though I realize it's not the end of the world. However, I do have a newfound interest in power consumption since we all learned that our electric rates are set to jump about 75% over the next two years. Yay Baltimore!
I do want to reiterate that I'm not posting all this to complain. I just think it's a puzzling decision and wouldn't mind knowing why it was made. If nothing else, that would give everyone something to point to the next time a new 622 user notices this behavior and asks the question.
I have no real idea why the drive would NEED to keep spinning, but now that my 508 does keep spinning, I can't measure the wattage difference. I seem to recall the 501 was only 25W when spun down and 40-45W while the drive was going. Several years ago, and from memory.
I don't think VOD content is loaded only during a middle of the night window. If a unit is in standby or a tuner isn't used, they could just be waking up to check for new content every 5-10 minutes and something indirectly keeps the drive spinning from a brief access resetting the drive timeout. WAG.
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