$299 lindows pc at Wal Mart

[lee635]

Has anyone tried one of these beasts?

RE: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=1870914&cat=41937&type=1&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A3951%3A41937

[gcutler]

"Monitor and floppy disk drive are not included. " I can deal with the monitor, but how much do they save by not including the Floppy drive?

Looks like a great intro machine or a 2nd machine for the kids room. I just wonder how well Lindows works. That is one variation of Linux I have not tinkered with??? Tried to download Lindows, but they say they want a $99/year membership. I will pay shipping cost and an inconvenience cost to get a CD delivered at home, but I won't pay to download the software.

[Bogy]

I think we are going to see a lot more machines with no floppy drive.

I wonder how much of a hassle it would be to wipe lindows off and install one of the OS's I already have?

[gcutler]

I bet you could probably take any bootable OS CD and install it fine. I doubt that there is anything that is on those machines that isn't supported by ME or 2000 or XP. If anything those machines were using older tech parts so I'd assume XP would support all components right out of the box. I have installed OS/2, NT, Win2000 Server, Netware Server on every desktop machine I have owned in the past 15 years and never had a problem, so your putting 98/ME/2K/XP on that machine should be pretty easy.

[MarkA]

'I wonder how much of a hassle it would be to wipe lindows off and install one of the OS's I already have?"

Absolutely none. If it's Windows you want to install, it would be illegal however

[James_F]

Only if its an OEM version. If he has a boxed version of Windows, than as long as he only has one computer, it isn't a violation of the license. I'm not sure about XP though, I think they did change the way licenses are done....

[Bogy]

As an example, if I were to do this, my son is currently using an old P75 with a licensed copy of Windows. Does fine for e-mail and IM and to do his homework. For $300 I could upgrade him significantly, strip the old computer for any usable parts (say like a floppy drive) and since the old computer is no longer usable, I could replace the Lindows with Windows and install everything that is currently on the old computer.
Obviously I would have to do it this way because I would never use an unauthorized copy of any Microsoft product.

[James_F]

You can only transfer the license if its not an OEM version, IE it came with a computer. You need a retail version to transfer. I believe that also matters for upgrades. You can't use an OEM disk to upgrade another computer, you need to purchase a full version of windows instead. So, if your version of windows (i assume win95) came with the computer, its an OEM version. You'd have to purchase a full version of WinXP or WinME which would run you at least $150 to $200.... This is why people get pissed at Microsoft. You can buy Linux, or MacOS for much less than you can buy a full version of windows. If cost is an issue, I'd either buy a used PC with a copy of windows, this Lindows computer or a cheap eMachines or something like that.... Maybe a referb from Dell with a warranty.

[MarkA]

You can transfer the license just fine, but his windows is probably OEM which you can't LEGALLY transfer (I'm pretty honest and I'd have no problem with using it on another PC). Of course the disc usually won't work, XP is superior, and XP Home OEM runs as little as $90. Plus, I don't usually support piracy. But this is Microsoft and all you wanna do is transfer a license... BTW, XP can be transfered - you just have to call Microsoft.

I've helped a couple friends install XP Pro corp (here's a hint - they didn't buy 5 licenses:) In fact they bought none and used corp because it doesn't have PA). And I didn't feel guilty (one, THEY'RE the sinners. I just helped them by telling them how to install XP over the phone (and at school in one case, the guy brought his box into school. And that guy decided he didn't even like XP because his computer was too slow and went back to his legal copy of 2000 Pro). Two, I shelled out my $199 for XP Pro so I'm clean!)

[Bogy]

My understanding has always been that you could only use one copy on one computer at a time. As an old unopened copy of MS-DOS 6 says (just happens to be where I can reach it right now)
"When you get a new computer you have a choice to make concerning your Microsoft software.
You my setup your software on your new computer if you delete it from your old computer.
OR
If you leave your software on your old computer you need to purchase additional software for your new computer."

Now I realize that DOS 6 is pretty old, but my understanding was that this was still the basic principle. If you bought a copy of a Microsoft program you could use it on one computer, with one user at a time. This is basically what a copy of Office I have setting here says.
My understanding, and experience has always been that I could move my copy of windows to any new computer I bought or built. When I have upgraded I can do a clean install as long as I can prove I have the prior disc available. At least it doesn't make you go all the way back. I'd hate to have to go back to DOS 3, my original full version non-upgrade OS on my own computer. It is still the same computer, kind of, because I have never started completely over with no previous parts making the transition. Now if Bill Gates wants to come and explain this to me, he is welcome, but he better be aware that I will hit him up for a contribution to a pastor in the denomination in which he was confirmed.
My understanding is that XP is licensed differently, and that is why I probably won't buy a copy anytime soon.

[MarkA]

XP is not licensed differently (I don't think the EULA has changed in a LONG time significantly). The license is enforced however. It's not a big deal. XP makes an encrypted hash code from the value of each component. It sends that to Microsoft anonymously, and that product key can't be re registered without calling Microsoft. The hardware can be changed, but not significantly (the number of devices you can change depends on how many you have. A network card counts for, I believe, 3 votes due to it's unique MAC address). It's not a big deal. Worst case, you call Microsoft and explain why you need the key cleared for reactivation. As long as your explanation sounds at all reasonable, they'll clear the old activation and activate it right there on the phone by giving you a 50 digit number to key in unique to your now current config. If you install on a new PC, same thing. You can still transfer the license - it just takes a short (hold times are basically non existant) phone call for a change in activation. No, I don't like it. Yes, thanks to both the corporate pro (no activation) and the Blue List keygen (generates completely valid, unique, keys which even Microsoft can't tell aren't real (you can activate on them)) it does no good. It just hurts us legitimate users. But it doesn't hurt us that bad. Besides, Microsoft has suceeded even though they have failed. They never expected to stop piracy. They just expected people to realize they weren't allowed to put Windows on two computers. They still can if they have half a brain, but Product Activation makes them look and see what the agreement says. At that point, Microsoft expects the good, honest person inside of you to go out to the store instead of online to a p2p swap service to get Blue List (and honestly, I think that works).

[James_F]

You can't transfer and OEM version of windows. This means that you couldn't take a Windows 2000 that came with a Dell and put it on a homemade computer. What this also means is that you can't buy an upgrade for windows xp and use the windows 2000 as your "upgrade" OS. You'd have to purchase a full version of windows xp for at least $199.

Bogy, you are correct about DOS 3. It was a retail version of DOS and you can install it on different computers as long as its one at a time.

Stealing software is a crime. It doesn't matter how much you may hate microsoft. If you need new software, buy it legally. I run a software development group and we have trouble with our clients transfering the software around in violation of our license. We have to charge more for the software to combat lost revenue that we would get if these clients would pay for the right to use our software.

[MarkA]

I agree about buying the software no matter how much you hate Microsoft. But seriously, when you're 18 with very little income you sure feel that $199 come out of your pocket. BTW, XP Home OEM (a LEGAL OEM for yourself sold with hardware) costs only about $90. XP Pro is under $200 OEM. (though I bought retail since I did have a 98 upgrade disc)

[James_F]

Ok, but why not download Linux free? I'm not passing judgement, its just stealing software is wrong.

[Bogy]

I think the misunderstanding is that a dealer may not legally sell me a copy of OEM without also selling me a computer, as a standalone product. But once I have purchased the computer with the software, the license is mine, and I can transfer the software to another computer as long as the software is removed from the original computer.

[James_F]

Here is what the license.txt file says on Windows 98. Its different on WinXP which is my other computer...

2. DESCRIPTION OF OTHER RIGHTS AND LIMITATIONS.
...
(j) Software Product Transfer.
You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this EULA only
as part of a permanent sale or transfer of the HARDWARE, provided
you retain no copies, you transfer all of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT
(including all component parts, the media and printed materials, any
upgrades, this EULA and, if applicable, the Certificate(s) of Authenticity),
and the recipient agrees to the terms of this EULA. If the SOFTWARE
PRODUCT is an upgrade, any transfer must also include all prior versions
of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.



So Bogy, you would be violating the OEM agreement with the software you purchased. By breaking the seal on the software you are held in agreement to Microsoft's license agreement. The license of windows must stay with the hardware that the OEM came with.

[James_F]

Here is something interesting I found on Cnet...

http://news.com.com/2100-1017-274071.html?legacy=cnet

[gcutler]

I think there is a moral difference between someone installing software they have purchased for a previous machine (and are no longer using on the original machine) and software they have never purchased. Legal is a different argument than moral...

Except for the MS world, at the company I am at, we will have the Lawers make changes to the liscensee agreement so that the software can either be left on the original machine and given to a different person or the SW can folllow the person. As long as the SW license is never used by more than one person or one machine, we consider that "Kosher". If the vendor dosen't like that change, then we go somewhere else. OF course you can't bargain with MS.

[Bogy]

Originally posted by James_F
Here is what the license.txt file says on Windows 98. Its different on WinXP which is my other computer...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. DESCRIPTION OF OTHER RIGHTS AND LIMITATIONS.
...
(j) Software Product Transfer.
You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this EULA only
as part of a permanent sale or transfer of the HARDWARE, provided
you retain no copies, you transfer all of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT
(including all component parts, the media and printed materials, any
upgrades, this EULA and, if applicable, the Certificate(s) of Authenticity),
and the recipient agrees to the terms of this EULA. If the SOFTWARE
PRODUCT is an upgrade, any transfer must also include all prior versions
of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.

So Bogy, you would be violating the OEM agreement with the software you purchased. By breaking the seal on the software you are held in agreement to Microsoft's license agreement. The license of windows must stay with the hardware that the OEM came with.
Yes, I WOULD be violating the agreement if I sold or gave away the old computer with the OS installed, but kept the documentation for myself, while installing the OS on another computer. But that is NOT the scenario I presented. The EULA only addresses the issue of transferring the EULA, it does not spell out what happens in the scenario I presented. As I pointed out earlier, DOS 6 did spell that out, but somewhere along the line that issue got fuzzy, to say the least. Therefore, I would hold that the old agreement would still be the rule, since they do not specifically state anything different.

[James_F]

Do what you want. EULAs are different for different OEM manufacturers. Look for a license.txt file in your windows directory. If it doesn't say you can't transfer the license, they go ahead. Microsoft isn't going to be going after you... I feel you are breaking both the letter and the spirit of the EULA for OEM products. There is a reason why they are much cheaper than retail versions. I really don't care what you do, most people feel that they own the license of the software and can do what they wish. Win2k, XP and ME all have more restrictive OEM language than Win95, Win98 and Win31.

Here is language from my wifes dell with WinME...

Single COMPUTER. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed with the HARDWARE as a single integrated product. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT may only be used with the HARDWARE as set forth in this EULA.

I guess, just check your license.txt file and see what it says. If you don't see anything like this, then you are ok.

[Bogy]

1. GRANT OF LICENSE. This EULA grants you the following rights:

Systems Software. You may install and use one copy of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT on a single computer, including a workstation, terminal or other digital electronic device ("COMPUTER"). I just did a search, and this is pretty much what three of my computers have to say. Unfortunately, the computer under discussion is in my son's room, and it is the only one turned off, and he is asleep. His is the only computer in the house that came with OEM software. I don't go out and buy computers that come with all that fancy shmancy stuff. This one just happened to be one that had been given to the church, (with all the license, manuals, etc. included) and when the church didn't need it anymore I volunteered to get it out of the way. :D If I was to give it away or sell it (like anyone would buy it) Iwould wipe the disc or include all the appropriate material. All this is just one more reason why I have never bought the computers with all the prepackaged software. I want the right to decide what computer it goes on, and the right to move it if I want.

[James_F]

Cool sounds like you'll be ok then...

[lee635]

Well, I'm not even sure of what constitutes a transfer to a new machine. If the hard drive dies on my machine and I restore my oem windoze from a backup onto a new hard drive, is that a new machine?

Months later I drop in a new cpu and change out video cards, new machine?

Later I get a bigger case and new motherboard but transfer the old hard drive, cpu, memory sticks and so forth. New computer?

Or I buy a Lindows machine, remove my hard drive from my old machine and stick it in the Lindows machine along with the memory, network card and a floppy drive. Throw out the video card from the lindows machine and replace with my existing card. Then scrap the other parts. New machine?

[gcutler]

On XP, a certain # of changed components will require a rentry of the Authentication ID as the machine will assume tooo much has changed and wants authentication. :D

[James_F]

Well thats why you just avoid OEM versions of software. Or avoid XP...

[MarkA]

Wrong gcutler, wrong. It requires a actual phone call to Micros**t for a reactivation code. The only version without this requirement is the volume license edition (big companies complained and got their way)

[Steve Mehs]

I use OEM versons of s/w on my old pc, that came with my new one, Word 2000, Money 2000, Mcafee Virus Scan and some other stuff. Do I feel guilty, absoutly not. And last year one of my teachers gave me a copy of Corel Office 8 Academic Edition, to install on my home PC, I even made a copy of it. Big no no according to the agreement, especailly since its supposed to be used for academic purposely only.

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Mark
Wrong gcutler, wrong. It requires a actual phone call to Micros**t for a reactivation code. The only version without this requirement is the volume license edition (big companies complained and got their way)

Mellow out Mark!!!

I wasn't trying to be literal about the reytping of the code, TO BE HONEST I DON"T GIVE A SH*T HOW IT REALLY IS DONE!!! Someone is typing in something somewhere to make the code valid.

My point was that if you make too many changes to the hardware on the machine you installed it on XP will freak and assume something NON-KOSHER was done and maybe someone was trying to pulls something like Image drive the SW to several machines off one install and Authentication comes into play again.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q302878#1k

Will I be required to re-activate when I either add or remove hardware from my computer?

"Yes, this is a possibility. If the changes to the system are enough that the Hardware ID originally computed at the time of activation is no longer valid, then WPA will need to be re-activated. This scenario could happen if the changes occur all at once or over a period of time. "

[James_F]

Originally posted by Steve Mehs
I use OEM versons of s/w on my old pc, that came with my new one, Word 2000, Money 2000, Mcafee Virus Scan and some other stuff. Do I feel guilty, absoutly not. And last year one of my teachers gave me a copy of Corel Office 8 Academic Edition, to install on my home PC, I even made a copy of it. Big no no according to the agreement, especailly since its supposed to be used for academic purposely only.

You amaze me this attitude. Cheating the system causes problems for everyone. If you don't like paying for software, why not just use GNU?

[gcutler]

In High School I did alot of Bootlegging (video and Atari 800 software), but once I got out into the real world and learned how people are affected by bootlegging, I changed my tone.

Luckily some companies will allow you to download 120 Day evals to learn SW. So in reality you may only have to worry about SW you use for an extended period of time . But sometimes it is a waste. I just paid $20 to download SUN Solaris Client SW 8 for Intel (they said as long as your don't run it on multiple CPU system..., and not corporate environment, etc) the $20 fee gives me right to use it. But it wouldn't load on my will load everying Dell :(

[James_F]

Exactly. My company spends millions of dollars trying to get our customers to pay for the software. In the end it just makes the software cost more. :shrug:

[Steve Mehs]

That old PC of mine hardly gets any use, only when this one is down or when my mom is using it and I need to do something right away. And as for Corel Office, even if I wanted to buy it I couldnt as Office version 8 is nowhare to be found now, except for maybe Ebay, which probably most of the copies are pirated anyway. Im not gonna shell out over $300 of an additional copy of Word or Money, when I only use them once in a while on my other computer.

[James_F]

So why not use http://www.openoffice.org/ ?

[Steve Mehs]

I Never knew about it before. But at the time, I had MS Office '97 Professional, which cost all of $60 (compared to $600 in the store, obtained leagally at a computer show), and now I have MS Office 2002 Professional. But for Corel Office, I took a class on it, and really liked some of the features and when it came to MS Office '97 v Corel Office 8, Corel's interface suited me better. Now I hardly use Corel Office, but its still on my pc.

[James_F]

We have such a choice of GNU software today. Some of its sucks, UNIX type interfaces, but its free. Why not use it?

[MarkA]

" And last year one of my teachers gave me a copy of Corel Office 8 Academic Edition"

Best I ever got was Macromedia Flash, Adobe Premiere, Macromedia Dreamweaver, and Windows 2000 Pro :) He CLAIMED it was legal since they weren't going to use it on as many computers as they had licenses for (of course, I KNOW with some of that that wasn't true. Especially Win2k, but now I'm using my own legal XP Pro anyways. Sure, he may have less than (I believe it's) 15 copies of 2k Pro "officially" installed, but God alone knows how many computers around the school are using his volume license key "without his knowledge" (many in his own classroom:) ). Okay, he probably DOESN'T actually know, as most of them are old junk the school throws out we played with in net tech, installed that Win2k on them, and didn't wipe before we gave them back to the school to put in another classroom (often at another school) or sell at auction (in which case they'll wipe them first). To make things funnier, we were just using the Win98 installed on them already - until the school's official tech dude found out. He said he was reusing those licenses (yup, except for one classroom most of the pathetic school district uses Win98) and he "hadn't got the chance to wipe those drives yet". To make a long story short - we quickly gave up and started using the 2k volume license the tech teacher got with his department budget (and got much to the tech guy's anger, claiming 2000 is less secure than 98. He's of course - an idiot). And I remember when the idiotic tech guy got shut down the science department's 802.11b network - even though all it was connected to was the network with the student file server, there were physical network connections almost everwhere, and the range didn't even reach down the hall, much less outside the school. After over a MONTH they were allowed to put it back up. With a lot of "I don't like this but...'s". Does this remind you of your school's head idiot Steve? I mean IT coordinator:) :) Oh well, thank God I never have to go back in that building:)

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Mark
To make a long story short - we quickly gave up and started using the 2k volume license the tech teacher got with his department budget (and got much to the tech guy's anger, claiming 2000 is less secure than 98. He's of course - an idiot). And I remember when the idiotic tech guy got shut down the science department's 802.11b network - even though all it was connected to was the network with the student file server, there were physical network connections almost everwhere, and the range didn't even reach down the hall, much less outside the school.

Sounds fairly typical. You can often figure out the level of knowledge by the salary the person recieves. Colleges/Schools pay their techs the lowest in the industry, consulting companies (who thus earn money off the techs) pay the highest. And those who have the most mission critical data will typically pay more for the tech (and thus more experience)

Often the School techs are newbies on their way up the ladder with alot to learn???

Althought in the past 2 years the Salary formula has lost some basis in that non tangibles (like not getting laid off every 9 months) may make a lower salary position more valuable to an experienced tech.

[lee635]

Originally posted by Steve Mehs
I use OEM versons of s/w on my old pc, that came with my new one, Word 2000, Money 2000, Mcafee Virus Scan and some other stuff. Do I feel guilty, absoutly not. And last year one of my teachers gave me a copy of Corel Office 8 Academic Edition, to install on my home PC, I even made a copy of it. Big no no according to the agreement, especailly since its supposed to be used for academic purposely only.

Well here at the college, a faculty member can load campus software onto his/her home pc. There was a big brewhaha with M$ not too long ago and they finally caved when many faculty across the country threatened to drop Gates from their oncampus systems. :lol:

I use StarOffice, a very nice "freeware" type of product. There is a Que book called Using StarOffice that is absolutely required if you seriously use the product. Best feature, you can save your files in the respective M$Office format, such as Word or Excel. that way others can use your files. Great product...

[Steve Mehs]

Wow Mark your HS is advanced! Most of the computers here are still running the ORGINAL version of WIN95, with the main office suite being MS Office 97 Pro. We have Dell Octiplexes that that have USB ports on them, funniest thing was see a teacher trying to hook up a USB HP Scanjet to one and saying 'Now Why doesnt this work'. Antivirus software is Norton on some machines, Mcafee on others and a few have this one called AntiVir. Last time they were updated you ask? sometime in May of 99 when these machines were purchased. :rolleyes: Defrag? Scandisk? NEVER!. The only computers that are remotly advacned is a shipment of 25 PIII Dells they got 2 years ago, those have WIN98 on them, and the ones in the engeneering lab, are filled to the max with RAM which helps when using Autodesk Inventor and West Point Bridge Designer. 802.11b? My school wont see that for years, although the did some test with Bluetooth, but I guess that went no whare. Our tech is a mean, grouchy b*tch! Although if I had to work with that old outdated equiptment and got calls from teachers all the time asking the most basic questios like 'what the difference between cut and copy' or 'how do i install a new print cartrage' I guess I would be the same way. :)

I was going to ask for more software but we dont have that much, The only thing I would really want is Inventor, but I have MS Visio which has cad features. At the time I wated FrontPage 98 but with Dreamweaver MX, I could care less, even though I have FP 2002 now, I'll probably never use it.

Going back to what James and Lee said, yeah theres other office software out, and some are free but, Microsoft and Corel are the two top names in the business with something like a combined 97% of the marketshare and they are 2 names that I know and trust. (wait...did I just say I trusted M$ :D )

[James_F]

Office only matters for business, you don't always buy the most expensive stuff. Take the Shampoo thread, White Rain, Suave and other were mentioned. Why do people use that crappy shampoo, because its good enough. Same deal with software. People are just conditioned to use Microsoft products. This conditioning is a loss for us all..... :nono:

[MarkA]

Yeah Steve, you said you trusted MS. I can't believe how poor the technology program in your high school was. Almost all the computers at FHS were new last year (the only reason they had 98 was the district was too scared and too cheap for 2K, and rightfully afraid of Me). The Science department has their own laptops for Physics and sometimes Chemistry (there's only about 20 - they're Gateway Solo PIIIs running 98, possibly upgrading to 2k or XP this year). The Business department is buying new ones for this next year's Net Tech class that I helped pick out. I believe they are Microns, Athlon XP systems, ATI All-In-Wonder graphics on some, etc... And some more Mac G4 towers. Oh well, I'll be at COLLEGE this fall:)

[Bogy]

Mark and Steve, I certainly sympathize with the outdated equipment you have had to deal with in HS. But I have a strong suspicion that its not the school administration which is limiting the updates, but your parents and grandparents. And their friends. Ask them if they voted to raise revenue for the school district the last time a bond issue or tax increase was proposed. People your grandparents age are the ones who vote, and most of them want to keep their taxes low and see no need for computers in the school. All you need to learn in school is readin', ritin', and rithmatic.
I face the same mentality in my church. That is why my secretary is using a Gateway with a P120 processor, and if it weren't for a buddy who donated a P133 I would be using a P75. A few months ago we upped the ram in my secretaries box to a whopping 32 meg so she could load the latest upgrade of the church software we use. We both have "huge" 15" monitors. People come into my office and say, "That's what you have for a computer?" But outside of my buddy, nobody takes action to spend the money to buy decent equipment.
In my last church I talked a family making a memorial donation into letting us buy a new computer with at least part of the money, so I was able to upgrade the secretary there from a 486 to a PIII. It was only a couple of years earlier that through a donation of the 486 we got rid of a Tandy XT clone.

Mark, I'm not sure, but do you have a problem with ME? Can you possibly stick that into a few more posts? Someone may have missed it. :D

[gcutler]

Originally posted by Bogy
Mark and Steve, I certainly sympathize with the outdated equipment you have had to deal with in HS. But I have a strong suspicion that its not the school administration which is limiting the updates, but your parents and grandparents. And their friends. Ask them if they voted to raise revenue for the school district the last time a bond issue or tax increase was proposed. People your grandparents age are the ones who vote, and most of them want to keep their taxes low and see no need for computers in the school. All you need to learn in school is readin', ritin', and rithmatic.

Exactly...But PCs in the classroom can be a double edge sword if not done right either.

Has anyone read Clifford Stoll's "Silicon Snake Oil".

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385419945

He has some very good thoughts on how some school districts just throw money at the computer issue with no cognitive plan. And I agree that just putting a PC in a classroom is a waste of time if the teachers don't know how to use it. But Stoll also seems to be almost Luddite in his point of view. I guess there has to be ballance.

I do think that a school that help students learn how to be database developers (Access, Visual Basic or such) or how to be a System administrator (W2K, UNIX and such) is helping their students and should be commended.

I remember having a conversation with a friends, the whole family worked for IBM in Upstate NY and yet she felt that Computers in the classroom were preventing readin', ritin', and rithmatic.' and that the school system should have nothing to do with computers.

[lee635]

The comments about Word and Excel being the defacto standard are spurious.

If you can develop proficiency in StarOffice, or Openoffice or whatever I'm using now, those skills easily transfer to the MSOffice suite or the Corel suite. The differences are subtle at best and usually amount to hunting for a different drop down menu or making a slight change to a formula or procedure.

Trust me if you get into a reasonably technical position, you'll find pockets of people who use this or that application, and you'll need to be able to transfer your skill set to the quirks of that application. At the University of Oregon, they give students free CDs with a bunch of campus software, but also a complete copy of StarOffice.

My wife creates letters in Star Office and sends .doc files to friends and tells them they must have Word to open the file. She knows she's not using Word, but just stopped telling her friends because they would get into a lengthy discussion about how a foreign file might break their computer. Bill G. has done a great job. ;)

As for schools, we struggle to keep up with the upgrade mill, even with academic discounts. For general computer labs, the older machines will do, but in the departmental labs, you must keep the upgrades on track. We have a standards committee that declares the minimum configuration once a year and any microcomputers below that standard are decommissioned during the year.

We're considering just providing or requiring the purchase or lease of a laptop to attend, then we just need to keep up our infrastructure and deliver application specific desktop support to our students. More basic support, such as my ethernet card died would be handled by the vendor, Dell or whoever, and they would support the laptop during the students entire career at the college as part of their contract.