The R15 is One Tough Cookie [Archive]

jonaswan2

05-29-06, 03:30 AM

You know why? Because it empliments XTV hardware, middleware, and software. Sorry boys, we won't be able to crack the XTV, oops I meant R15 easily.

http://nds.com/press_room/nds_resources_brochures.html

Read the XTV Integrated PVR Solution and SVP - Secure Video Processor brochures. They are very interesting and basically dash all of our hopes for ever wanting to easily add data or get files from the box, ever.

"But how is the Xbox 360 and other things able to get data from the R15? If that thing can do it, we should be able too, right?" You say. Well, you may also want to read the XTV Ready brochure.

Conclusion, unless DirecTV switches DVR providers, this machine is virtually unhackable.

Dan East

05-29-06, 08:56 AM

Yeah, and guess what? I'm sure the marketing people that hyped up CSS made it sound like a very impressive and secure technology too.

Dan East

morgantown

05-29-06, 09:27 AM

jonaswan2

05-29-06, 09:35 AM

Not so fast. There were several reports of folks in the UK using the Sky+ DVR (also with NDS software) that wrote scripts to copy shows directly off of the DVR HD to their PC HD.

Nothing is totally secure. They just market it like it is. Thy also market it like it is the best DVR ever. Do note even DTV's ad on their site that starts off showing a picture of the R15 and the line "never want to miss a show again." There is a huge difference between marketing and truth.

Didn't think of that. I would think that SVP thing would make it impossible for anyone to even think about trying to transfer files and having them just play on the computer and it would explain why it's taking us so long to hack.

Maybe we should give some R15s to the folks in the UK :)

EDIT: Why do I keep on calling that darn thing SVC! I have my encryption methods mixed up.

morgantown

05-29-06, 09:53 AM

Maybe we should give some R15s to the folks in the UK :)

I'm supprised Weakknees has not provided a round trip ticket from the UK and a week in a swanky hotel already -- it would be cheaper than the reward they offer to upgrade the HD....:D

Wolffpack

05-29-06, 10:57 AM

You know why? Because it empliments XTV hardware, middleware, and software. Sorry boys, we won't be able to crack the XTV, oops I meant R15 easily.
So are you making an assumption that there's a SVP in the R15 or do you know this for a fact?

With SVP, content remains secure throughout the distribution chain.
This would indicate all DTV signals are encrypted for SVP decryption. So do all UTV, DTivo and standalone receivers have a SVP to decrypt the stream?

I've looked over most all the chips on the R15 mainboard and have not yet run across anything resembling a SVP.

jonaswan2

05-29-06, 11:02 AM

So are you making an assumption that there's a SVP in the R15 or do you know this for a fact?

This would indicate all DTV signals are encrypted for SVP decryption. So do all UTV, DTivo and standalone receivers have a SVP to decrypt the stream?

I've looked over most all the chips on the R15 mainboard and have not yet run across anything resembling a SVP.

According to a press release, yes, yes they do have SVP chips inside off all of their newly manufactured boxes. I assume that means all boxes made after January.

http://www.svpalliance.org/index.html

One of the first press releases on the site.

Secondly, SVP doesn't work like that. First the signal comes in, the card decrypts it and turns it into SVP and something else and then sends it to the SVP chip which decrypts it and viola! Or something like that. Actually, the demos on the site can tell you much better how SVP works than I could.

wbmccarty

05-29-06, 11:05 AM

At the risk of seeming simplistic, I'll point out that the R15 itself can decrypt the data. So, decrypting the data is merely a question of subverting the R15's command stream. The theoretical and actual strength of the cipher don't really matter. :eek2:

Wolffpack

05-29-06, 11:14 AM

According to a press release, yes, yes they do have SVP chips inside off all of their newly manufactured boxes. I assume that means all boxes made after January.

http://www.svpalliance.org/index.html

One of the first press releases on the site.

Secondly, SVP doesn't work like that. First the signal comes in, the card decrypts it and turns it into SVP and something else and then sends it to the SVP chip which decrypts it and viola! Or something like that. Actually, the demos on the site can tell you much better how SVP works than I could.
DTVs press release was dated Jan 2006. I doubt that chip is inside the R15 or HR20 which were designed last year. The R15 has been on the streets since Nov/Dec 2005.

morgantown

05-29-06, 11:22 AM

That press release makes it sound alot like what they will be doing for the DirecTV2 Go, the external HD for the R15/R20, etc, and HMC.

Also sounds like that was not a start date but plans for a start. For example "As silicon integrating SVP technology becomes available, DIRECTV plans to introduce compatible silicon into newly manufactured DIRECTV set-top boxes." Kinda make me wonder if they even consider the R15 to be a "next generation" set-top box.

Also sounds like this press release was more about sharing data (within the home) while being protected versus ratcheting up the current level of protection/encryption.

Just my $0.02.

jonaswan2

05-29-06, 11:25 AM

DTVs press release was dated Jan 2006. I doubt that chip is inside the R15 or HR20 which were designed last year. The R15 has been on the streets since Nov/Dec 2005.

I've knew you were going to bring that up and my responce is...

DARN! FOILED AGAIN! :mad: :mad: :mad:

But seriously, from what I've read, it doesn't take much to implement SVP and DirecTV may have already known about it and future proofed the boxes, or it may have been put in through a firmware update.

Or the press release really did mean all new maufactured products and the older boxes may not have it inside.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

There is a larger chance of it not being in any of the boxes for a while, so what's taking us so long? I think NDS has us Americans stumped. We need an XTV developer!

Dan East

05-29-06, 02:40 PM

It looks like there might be three keys:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.satellite.tv.australasia/browse_thread/thread/c68406298aed3b7d/46742a7739bd9f30

See the third paragraph.

Dan East

Wolffpack

05-29-06, 04:02 PM

But once content is downloaded to an iPod or other device, how will this security follow? There are not going to be smart cards on these portable devices.

morgantown

05-29-06, 06:25 PM

Probably why they will only grant permission to their own branded devices (aka DirecTV2Go).

The Windows/Vista Media Center PC thing does throw a curve there - But it will have to have the smart card.

Dan East

05-29-06, 08:48 PM

The more I think about this, the more it makes sense that the data written to the HDD is just the raw data stream from the tuner. IE it is already encrypted. Thus the ability to extract meaningful data from the HDD is essentially the same as the battle to modify devices to access channels that are not subscribed to. That would not be a good thing.

A possible way to verify this would be to record channel 101 (or is it 100) and see if an unencrypted MPEG2 is on the HDD. Even if it is an MPEG2 it may not have a proper header, so it would have to be run through something like tmpgenc's multiplex to add standard headers.

Dan East

jonaswan2

05-29-06, 09:13 PM

But once content is downloaded to an iPod or other device, how will this security follow? There are not going to be smart cards on these portable devices.

Did you even read the XTV Ready brochure? It's pretty much explained there. If the Manufacture and the Device # are accepted then the DirecTV R15 will find how they function, and then put everything you requested on the device (even with a time limit if DirecTV pleases).

Wolffpack

05-29-06, 10:43 PM

Did you even read the XTV Ready brochure? It's pretty much explained there. If the Manufacture and the Device # are accepted then the DirecTV R15 will find how they function, and then put everything you requested on the device (even with a time limit if DirecTV pleases).
No offense jonaswan, but I've been involved in developing many brochures for companies I've worked for. In every instance we were pulling crap out of our arses. Promising functions that did not exist. We were forced to spin the product to meet investor expectations. One of the many reasons I quit that job.

But yes I read those, I still see many problems implementing. This is new technology and is just now being sold to customers such as DTV. On their own, right now, DTV can't even sell a dependable SD DVR. What should one expect in regards to the HD or even DirecTV2Go technology.

I'm sorry here folks, but if DTV/NDS can't get the R15 working, how are they ever going to put out anything like DTV2GO?

I guess maybe the question is that if there is an army of developers working on all this new crap, why not get them fixing the existing crap?

jonaswan2

05-29-06, 10:54 PM

Well NDS got the VideoGuard and the interactive crap right :( :( :(

Wolffpack

05-30-06, 12:51 AM

Well NDS got the VideoGuard and the interactive crap right :( :( :(
And how, from your knowledge, does that effect the development of the R15 or HR20? We're told here that NDS doesn't have anything to do with the current development of the R15. Are you saying NDS is still developing the R15 or the HR20?

jonaswan2

05-30-06, 01:01 AM

And how, from your knowledge, does that effect the development of the R15 or HR20? We're told here that NDS doesn't have anything to do with the current development of the R15. Are you saying NDS is still developing the R15 or the HR20?

Huh? :confused: I don't know. MOMMY, THE WOLF IS BEATTING ME!:mad: :crying_sa

Wolffpack

05-30-06, 01:15 AM

Huh? :confused: I don't know. MOMMY, THE WOLF IS BEATTING ME!:mad: :crying_sa
No not at all.

Read some other threads here regarding the R15. There have been many discussions about the fact that DTV is developing the R15, not NDS. The SKY+ box isn't the same as the R15. This has gone around and around. Some of us believe they SKY box was the father or grandfather of the R15. Others have other opinions.

I am a Wolf, but I only attack those that appear weak as wolves do. ;) You're not one of those jonaswan. I'm just trying to keep knowledge and rumor defined as it relates to the R15.

jonaswan2

05-30-06, 01:28 AM

No not at all.

Read some other threads here regarding the R15. There have been many discussions about the fact that DTV is developing the R15, not NDS. The SKY+ box isn't the same as the R15. This has gone around and around. Some of us believe they SKY box was the father or grandfather of the R15. Others have other opinions.

I am a Wolf, but I only attack those that appear weak as wolves do. ;) You're not one of those jonaswan. I'm just trying to keep knowledge and rumor defined as it relates to the R15.

But the fact that DirecTV has openly admitted to using other NDS technologies and the fact that, according to NDS, DirecTV is one of their XTV costumers. Yeah... It's only a coincidence that the DirecTV DVR is called the DirecTV+ and the BSkyB's DVR is called the Sky+.:rolleyes:

ad301

05-30-06, 08:40 AM

Read this (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_23/b3987019.htm).

morgantown

05-30-06, 10:25 AM

Clint Lamor

05-30-06, 10:41 AM

No not at all.

Read some other threads here regarding the R15. There have been many discussions about the fact that DTV is developing the R15, not NDS. The SKY+ box isn't the same as the R15. This has gone around and around. Some of us believe they SKY box was the father or grandfather of the R15. Others have other opinions.

I am a Wolf, but I only attack those that appear weak as wolves do. ;) You're not one of those jonaswan. I'm just trying to keep knowledge and rumor defined as it relates to the R15.

If you're referring to me I never stated they weren't using anything from NDS. My point has always been that they took what they had and redid most of it, adapted to what was needed in this country and added what they needed added for their systems. It would be foolish to use nothing from one of your sister companies when the product you are developing is what they do. My contention has always been that there are many differences in the US broadcast system and the NDS product had never been used in this country to my knowledge so I am sure quite a bit had to be changed to adapt it to what DirecTV needed.

Wolffpack

05-30-06, 11:00 AM

If you're referring to me I never stated they weren't using anything from NDS. My point has always been that they took what they had and redid most of it, adapted to what was needed in this country and added what they needed added for their systems. It would be foolish to use nothing from one of your sister companies when the product you are developing is what they do. My contention has always been that there are many differences in the US broadcast system and the NDS product had never been used in this country to my knowledge so I am sure quite a bit had to be changed to adapt it to what DirecTV needed.
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. Just that there are schools of thought such as yours that DTV started with the NDS platform and is now running with it. On the other hand, when you read NDS's propaganda it sounds as if they are actively involved in the R15/HR20 development.

ad301

05-30-06, 11:51 AM

From the article I linked to above:

"Since taking control of DirecTV in 2003, Murdoch's mission has been to lure subscribers from cable by slashing prices, giving away set-top boxes, and paying big for ads. Now comes the second wave: a technology offensive. During a recent stroll through NDS's Costa Mesa facility, the 75-year-old proudly reviewed his arsenal. "We expect NDS to build up new offerings and to improve DirecTV's market share," he said with a crocodile grin. Translation: The war for viewers is about to escalate."

Clint Lamor

05-30-06, 02:28 PM

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. Just that there are schools of thought such as yours that DTV started with the NDS platform and is now running with it. On the other hand, when you read NDS's propaganda it sounds as if they are actively involved in the R15/HR20 development.

It is highly possible that DirecTV has the coders then they opened an NDS office here nd those coders will work out of it. I think anyway it goes it's all the same, they are owned by the same company afterall. It's all in how it's looked at. I honestly don't care if Sam the butcher made it as long as they keep fixing it. :)

morgantown

05-30-06, 03:40 PM

It is highly possible that DirecTV has the coders then they opened an NDS office here nd those coders will work out of it. I think anyway it goes it's all the same, they are owned by the same company afterall. It's all in how it's looked at. I honestly don't care if Sam the butcher made it as long as they keep fixing it. :)

I do agree with those sentiments to the extent that if/when the R15 really has the majority of its issues resolved (honestly not holding my breath for "everything") it matters not who fixed it.

Personally, I still think that the core is NDS and they (NDS) are trying to learn as much as possible with the DTV/US rollout to make a better product overall. NDS obviously has more potential customers world-wide including DTV than it would have otherwise. I do think the lessons they need to learn here (to satisfy me at least :)) will make a better product for Sky+, etc.

The DVR functionality itself should not be country-specific. That is the biggest thing that worries me about a DVR that began its life as a NDS/XTV DVR. They have not gotten the basic DVR functionality down yet (six years or so in) according to their own users. Everything around the DVR of course will be different in different nations/continents...no argument there.

How much better the product will be overall is obviously the $100k question. Only time will answer that most important question.... It is still "fun" to debate the issue, though. At the end of the day I still agree with your point: I don't care who made the DVR if it has the functionality I want -- with the reliability I have come to expect.

Wolffpack

05-30-06, 04:01 PM

morgantown

05-30-06, 04:37 PM

They certainly do lose guide data when the unit restarts. That is a "please fix this" request I have seen..

No specific mention of a limit to the SL/TDL other than a single user who commented that he/she did not know of one (a maximum limit) and had "2+ pages of SLs without problems." You can offer a better idea than me of how many SLs fit on an approximate two pages. They complain about the SLs a whole bunch (and have an extremely limited experience with TiVo as TiVo pulled out of Europe quite some time ago). The TiVo's sell over there for a very steep premium if you can find one.

My thoughts are, if you are not satisfied with five or fifteen SLs (just making the numbers up here) and do not trust them -- when are you going to have 50+ setup? Never, in my humble opinion.

In a nutshell the lack of TiVo adoption (being spoiled if you will) and poor experience with the current SLs is the biggest reason that the "series link maximum number" is a moot point with the Sky+ boxes.

All just an opinion, and nothing on their forums to indicate otherwise. I have tried to look at it without bias and taking into account any positive experience as well as those not so positive. It really reminds me of the DTV quote when they denied the R15 had problems "If you never had a DVR before, you'll love our product" (paraphrasing of course).

harsh

05-30-06, 04:58 PM

Secondly, SVP doesn't work like that. First the signal comes in, the card decrypts it and turns it into SVP and something else and then sends it to the SVP chip which decrypts it and viola! Or something like that. Actually, the demos on the site can tell you much better how SVP works than I could.I think your twisting things around and backwards. The encryption happens as the stream is written to the hard drive and then decrypted as it is read off the hard drive. If it were done the way you suggest, the contents of the hard drive would be "in the clear".

harsh

05-30-06, 05:13 PM

The NTSC-PAL issue isn't D*'s problem. The only aspects that belong to D* should be the ability to receive the subscribed channels (and no more) and make sure the guide information is compatible.

Wolffpack

05-30-06, 05:37 PM

There's 5 SLs per page. So 2+ pages is 10-15 SLs.

jonaswan2

05-30-06, 06:59 PM

morgantown

05-30-06, 08:09 PM

NDS also did the interface for the guide ad menu (or provided the tools), the interactive crap, and something called MediaHighway Middleware.

Like harsh said, all DirecTV has to worry about is getting the channels we request and getting us correct guide information.

I do not disagree with your sentiments in the least. As far as I care, NDS provides the architecture (including the DVR funcitionality IMHO) and DTV has the easy part of tying it into their system (you have read NDS "literature," they claim they will tie it into your system turnkey -- right).

That said, NDS has provided the access cards for quite some time (and that gets right to the Middleware) and the darn EPG is their claim as well. If NDS had their ducks in a row, DTV would not be playing the fall guy in this sad tale.

Sorry, but if DTV is trying to invent their own DVR overnight I'm just not buying it. NDS has been in the DVR business all to long (with a less than satisfactory record their users can speak to quite well) and to put the R15 problems all on DTV -- I call bull (sorry Earl -- I'm not shooting the messenger here, you just pass along what you get).

If DTV somehow could create a wonderful DVR in a matter of six+ months then NDS should be paying DTV one heck of a payment -- versus the other way around. Neither is going to happen...as we all know. We all pay NDS a sizable chunk of change each month whether we have a R15 or not with DTV. Gotta lova the "corporate family."

But, "my" rates are going to investing in this NDS DVR and we all know another non-News Corp. company that could have done a hell of a lot better for a fraction of the cost. There it is, I have vented...:)

morgantown

06-01-06, 04:45 PM

Morgantown, I agree. One would think the core would be NDS. So this core would handle:

Guide Data
Scheduling
History
Conflict Resolution
Searching capabilities
Saving and playing of shows

Whereas the DTV code would take into account:

The DTV stream
NTSC vs PAL
User Interface
Access card logic (although that comes from NDS)

So, if that is correct, do you know if the SkyBox users have limits to SLs or TDLs? Do they loose their guide data when the unit is reset? I'd be interested to know how much of the core is NDS or if DTV started from scratch.

FWIW, NDS also does claim that they produce the UI to the client specifications (that is why the SD recievers are "just like" the R15 -- ease of use for the end user). That is what NDS "says" at least.

So, I'd say that leaves the DTV code to the DTV stream and NTSC vs. PAL.