VOD - They're Stealing From You

[MarkInDenver]

VIP22 users,

First of all, I have a concern that this unit is constantly on, sapping my electricty bill. I've been told by a servie rep "that's the way it is" but the reaility of the situation is that that's the only way of handling VOD.

Honestly very stupid. We should be able to turn our own units off.

Return them. Don't access VOD. Turn off your receiver.

We have the right to power down efficiently.

Mark

[MarkInDenver]

I meant to say VIP622 costing you? But theory correct. Does Dish have the right to spend your electrical dollar downloading videos that you won't access?

No.

We need to frame it in a way that they and the FCC will understand.

Until then, turn off the receiver at night.

Mark

[MarkInDenver]

This receiver works overtime and has screwed itself up, because it's always on to receive feeds I won't use. And suck up my space and power.

Turn it off at night and complain. It's not right.

Mark

[MarkInDenver]

So Dish spend all day downloading a movie your're never going to watch.

That's how it works.

Write your congressman.

Mark

[Stewart Vernon]

Since you started three threads to rant about the same thing...

I point out that you are now stealing from the forum and the rest of us. You are stealing space on the forum that could have been used for valid messages that we want to read... and you wasted my time in reading all your posts.

Will my congressman help?

;)

[auburn2]

Or put it on a switched outlet. If you don't want to do that just get rid of your 622. I don't see what the big deal is.

[James Long]

Ranting is not a support issue. Please don't post such things in the support forums. Threads merged and moved here for further discussion, etc.

[saweetnesstrev]

Dishnetworks VOD is a joke. 4.99 or something for a movie. Heck, Netflix can deliver HD-DVD/DVD , 2 movies at a time for a cheap price for a month and you can get your moneys worth, good image quality too. Comcast's VOD is free also, and Verizon FIOS'..

[whatchel1]

VIP22 users,

First of all, I have a concern that this unit is constantly on, sapping my electricty bill. I've been told by a servie rep "that's the way it is" but the reaility of the situation is that that's the only way of handling VOD.

Honestly very stupid. We should be able to turn our own units off.

Return them. Don't access VOD. Turn off your receiver.

We have the right to power down efficiently.

Mark

All electronic devices that have a remote control are always on. They just go into standby mode. The only way a remote controlled device works is that they are constantly on to receive a remote signal. So if you want to stop using power from say your TV then it will have to be on a switched outlet and you will then run the risk of having to reprogram it after the memory goes dead. Perfect example why does a VCR's memory go bye bye when unplugged. It is because the memory is volatile and shuts off when power is disconnected. Also in general when electronics are shut off and then turned on it is the most likely time to burn out a part. Electronic circuity really like to stay at a static warm state. When they cool down the parts shrink when it heats up it expands. So this shrinking and expanding decresses life time. As far as the off on the VIP622 it goes into to sleep mode (powers down the HDD) when it is not used for several hours. That is why it has a screen saver that comes on after it has not been used for several hours. So now you have a little teidbit of info that you didn't have before. In a TV station we only turn off equipment when it is not going to be used for many hours (like 8 or more). Yes you are correct in that the VIP622 uses power power at night but nearly as much as your big screen that you most likely think is off when it is in sleep mode.

[Bill R]

Turn it off at night and complain. It's not right.

Mark

I am quite happy with my ViP622 and really don't see a reason to complain about power usage. Since most electrical appliances do the same thing (use power when "off") why don't you complain to those vendors too?

[nlk10010]

Actually, I'll be turning my new 622 off at night not because I don't like the short fat bald evil men who own corporations like Echostar but because the damn thing is too noisy.

When you do, however, just be sure you first send the 622 into reboot land, THEN pull the plug (or switch off the outlet). This way it isn't accessing the disk when you cut the power. I did that with my ReplayTVs every day for a year and a half with nary a problem (except of course that I couldn't record something overnight). :)

=NLK=

[tnsprin]

Actually, I'll be turning my new 622 off at night not because I don't like the short fat bald evil men who own corporations like Echostar but because the damn thing is too noisy.

When you do, however, just be sure you first send the 622 into reboot land, THEN pull the plug (or switch off the outlet). This way it isn't accessing the disk when you cut the power. I did that with my ReplayTVs every day for a year and a half with nary a problem (except of course that I couldn't record something overnight). :)

=NLK=
Actually what you describe guarentees the 622 is accessing the disk.

[James Long]

But "pulling the plug" would prevent the dreaded VOD download. :D

I wonder if that will eventually become an audit team flag ... Hmmm, they unplug their receiver every night ... let's call them up and make sure they are not doing that to move it around the country.

[jrb531]

I do have one serious issue with the VOD.

My 622 gets darn hot. I use it all day and turn it off for the night. The hard drive on my 501 and 508 would then cool down and take a break (unless I had something set to record of course) but because VOD takes over when I'm not using the machine my poor hard drive runs near 24/7 and I have been building computers for too many years to know that drives get hurt more when they are power cycled but in this case the heat buildup for 24/7 operation can kill the drive before its time so to speak.

All modern hard drives have a power down mode to reduce power use as well as save the motor. Does VOD prevent this from happening?

I have "never" watched a VOD nor will I ever. Even when they send me those stupid coupons it's just not worth filling them out and sending them in because I have direct bill.

As was pointed out before... if these darn movies were even close to being cost effective I might use them. Charging $5 for a movei that has already been on rental for sometime is just stupid.

-JB

[Richard King]

Pulling the plug will also guarantee that you will have no current program guide when you plug it back in. Not a desired situation. Do you own any electronic devices with a wall mounted powersupply? Better unplug all of them too because that big "wall wart" is a transformer and it always has current going through it.

Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep....

[James Long]

Once the VOD section of your hard drive (unusable for anything else) is full your receiver won't be downloading new movies every night. The only HD activity VOD leads to is the OCCASIONAL update of a movie in your VOD library. I have not kept track of all the titles on my machine, but I don't notice "new content every day".

[normang]

It would be nice if in setup some where, you could just disable VOD if you never intend to use it. Which would hide the menus and recover any disk used if it was enabled.

[Richard King]

On that I agree, but the paranoid ramblings of Dish stealing from you are just silly.

[dld542004]

VIP22 users,

First of all, I have a concern that this unit is constantly on, sapping my electricty bill. I've been told by a servie rep "that's the way it is" but the reaility of the situation is that that's the only way of handling VOD.

Honestly very stupid. We should be able to turn our own units off.

Return them. Don't access VOD. Turn off your receiver.

We have the right to power down efficiently.

Mark
GET A LIFE !!!:nono2:

[nlk10010]

Actually what you describe guarentees the 622 is accessing the disk.

I'm not intimately familiar with the program code embedded in the 622 but I'll assume from the statement you made that you are. I'm surprised that the bootstrap is on disk but, hey, what do I know? IAC, that's fine. The procedure seemed to work OK with the RTVs so I'll take a chance it will work fine now.

=NLK=

[Bill R]

The paranoid ramblings of Dish stealing from you are just silly.


I agree! Sometimes I have to wonder if posters who make those type of posts are really playing with a full deck.

[harsh]

Once the VOD section of your hard drive (unusable for anything else) is full your receiver won't be downloading new movies every night. The only HD activity VOD leads to is the OCCASIONAL update of a movie in your VOD library. I have not kept track of all the titles on my machine, but I don't notice "new content every day".Your theory sounds nice, but the implementation seems to be different. My 508 spins up every two hours. This is something new since the VOD software release. Since it is located in my bedroom, I don't appreciate it.

As everyone else has said, give me the space back and forget about this feeble attempt that VOD. You can't really call it "on demand" if they only stock three or four movies. If you can't give me the space back, please allow me to (or do it on my behalf) disable the whole VOD system (including the DVR menu sidetrack).

BTW, who is "demanding" Bruce Almighty???

[James Long]

The same folks who demanded "Bowfinger".

[gitarzan]

My 622 uses about 50-52 watts of electricity when on or off or 1.2 kw hours a day. Where I live this is about 6-7 cents a day or about $2 month. I like to turn off power to all of my home theatre equipment at night. I will not use the VOD feature and it would be nice enhancement for Dish to make the feature optional along with a hibernation mode that only uses a 5-10 watts.

[MarkInDenver]

Okay, maybe they're technically not stealing from you but it did start a discussion. Anyway, they are causing me to spend more on the electricity bill, and even though I can aford it multiply this box across all the boxes and the current energy crises. Computers, refrigerators, washing machines have all been forced or have become energy efficicient and list their ratings when you buy them.

By neccessity, video on demand is downloaded to your disk space and thus uses your resources to accomplish it's task. I order roughly many PPV movies during the month and really have no use for it.

Also, it's got to be one of the reasons the machine runs very hot. My hdmi cable went out Friday and I asked during the call if the machine was supposed to run that hot. He said it's a common complaint. It can't help that it's running overtime to try to accomplish the VOD. I'm sure it shortens the life of the box.

[lakebum431]

Blah blah blah

[carlsbad_bolt_fan]

So Dish spend all day downloading a movie your're never going to watch.

That's how it works.

Write your congressman.

Mark

TROLL ALERT!!!!!!

[jrb531]

VOD is like a photographer.

They take (and waste!) 99% of the time, materials and supplies to make a sale to 1% of the consumer.

IMHO this is such a total and utter waste of effort. All of this effort to serve so little. I guess in my little mind it would be better to take all that effort and either lower the cost of pay per view (not the pre-loaded crap but the movies that start every few hours and we could just PVR the ones we want at a much lower cost) or our bills.

Perhaps this is why VOD or PPV cost so much to begin with. So much overhead for so little use means they have to increase the price of it just to recoup their costs.

How many people would actually watch a PPV if it only cost $2 for older movies or $3 for newer stuff instead of the current $5 or $6?

VOD is stupid. With PPV all you had to do was wait an hour (at the most) for the next showing. Instead they pre-load a limited number of movies onto "millions" of PVR's just to erase and do it again for 99% of the people.

Waste Waste Waste!

Whoever thought this would fly needs to rethink a few things LOL.

I guess they though the reason we were not renting PPV movies was because we did not want to wait an hour for the movie to start LOL.

Does not take a rocket scientist to know that maybe, just maybe the reason people do not watch PPV movies has nothing to do with being upset that we cannot sit down and start the movie within seconds but maybe because by the time they offer us these movies we have already rented them (such that it takes so lomng after these movies are already out on DVD that they show up weeks or months later on PPV) and/or they charge too darn much for movies that we can pick up either week/months earlier at our local video store and/or at a much cheaper price.

Would I watch a PPV movie for $4 if it came out at the same time as the rentals? Prob a few each month. Would I watch a PPV movie for $5 if it came out weeks/months after the rental release? No friggin way!

Does any normal people work at Dish? Sometimes you have to wonder LOL

-JB

[Larry Caldwell]

VIP22 users,

First of all, I have a concern that this unit is constantly on, sapping my electricty bill. I've been told by a servie rep "that's the way it is" but the reaility of the situation is that that's the only way of handling VOD.

...

We have the right to power down efficiently.

Mark

Just mount the surge protector where you can reach it, and turn the entire entertainment center off when you aren't using it. This has the added advantage of isolating your entertainment center from lightning storms when you aren't home or awake to disconnect it.

If you set timers, you can use an external programmable power switch to cut or restore power as needed. Just give the 622 time to reboot before the program starts.

[megeed]

If it is not plugged in, then it won't be able to update software through the phone line, thus causing you to get charged $5 a month extra.

[James Long]

Software isn't updated through the phone line. It is updated through the satellite link. (But they do charge you $5 on select units for not having a phone connected.)

[ebaltz]

VOD is like a photographer.

They take (and waste!) 99% of the time, materials and supplies to make a sale to 1% of the consumer.

IMHO this is such a total and utter waste of effort. All of this effort to serve so little. I guess in my little mind it would be better to take all that effort and either lower the cost of pay per view (not the pre-loaded crap but the movies that start every few hours and we could just PVR the ones we want at a much lower cost) or our bills.

Perhaps this is why VOD or PPV cost so much to begin with. So much overhead for so little use means they have to increase the price of it just to recoup their costs.

How many people would actually watch a PPV if it only cost $2 for older movies or $3 for newer stuff instead of the current $5 or $6?

VOD is stupid. With PPV all you had to do was wait an hour (at the most) for the next showing. Instead they pre-load a limited number of movies onto "millions" of PVR's just to erase and do it again for 99% of the people.

Waste Waste Waste!

Whoever thought this would fly needs to rethink a few things LOL.

I guess they though the reason we were not renting PPV movies was because we did not want to wait an hour for the movie to start LOL.

Does not take a rocket scientist to know that maybe, just maybe the reason people do not watch PPV movies has nothing to do with being upset that we cannot sit down and start the movie within seconds but maybe because by the time they offer us these movies we have already rented them (such that it takes so lomng after these movies are already out on DVD that they show up weeks or months later on PPV) and/or they charge too darn much for movies that we can pick up either week/months earlier at our local video store and/or at a much cheaper price.

Would I watch a PPV movie for $4 if it came out at the same time as the rentals? Prob a few each month. Would I watch a PPV movie for $5 if it came out weeks/months after the rental release? No friggin way!

Does any normal people work at Dish? Sometimes you have to wonder LOL

-JB


Totally good arguments. The reason why I will never buy a standard PPV or a VOD is because they are in friggen SD! Why would I waste money on that when I can get the DVD and at least watch it widescreen and have all the extras etc...? If they offered a large number of really new releases in HD, then I would buy them, but until then, they won't get any $ out of me, or out of probably many customers, especially HD customers.

[Michael P]

Dont' want VOD? Get a 921 :D They probably will never put DOD on a 921. It does not even have Dish Home.

[cleblanc]

Totally good arguments. The reason why I will never buy a standard PPV or a VOD is because they are in friggen SD! Why would I waste money on that when I can get the DVD and at least watch it widescreen and have all the extras etc...? If they offered a large number of really new releases in HD, then I would buy them, but until then, they won't get any $ out of me, or out of probably many customers, especially HD customers.
I also totally agree. This is such a waste. With all the problems Dish still has, I can't believe they waste time and money trying to solve problems that don't exist. I can't imagine anybody thought this was a good idea. I don't recall anyone asking for this. I wish there was a way we could turn this off and get back the hard disk space for recordings I actually want.

[Wrecker06]

Get one of those chill pads that plugs into the usb port. Set the 622 on it, the fans in the chill pad draw the heat out of the unit. Mine runs about 20 degrees cooler. Was averaging about 115 degrees, now its running around 95

[P Smith]

I would expect more frustration if you'll know Dish reserved for VOD partition 100 GB on the ViP622.

[nazz]

Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep....

Stop children what's that sound?

622's hard drive spinning round...

[Richard King]

Todd, is that you? :lol:

[normang]

Get one of those chill pads that plugs into the usb port. Set the 622 on it, the fans in the chill pad draw the heat out of the unit. Mine runs about 20 degrees cooler. Was averaging about 115 degrees, now its running around 95

How quiet are those pads? Does it keep the 622 fans quieter as well, because of the extra chill?..

[nazz]

Todd, is that you? :lol:

Hello It's Me. :wave:

[tnsprin]

Totally good arguments. The reason why I will never buy a standard PPV or a VOD is because they are in friggen SD! Why would I waste money on that when I can get the DVD and at least watch it widescreen and have all the extras etc...? If they offered a large number of really new releases in HD, then I would buy them, but until then, they won't get any $ out of me, or out of probably many customers, especially HD customers.
Please don't give them the idea of filling up our 622's with HD DOD. The 11 or so SD Dod currently on my machine are not taking much space, so I don't care. But HD would take real space, and I don't think they set aside a fixed amount of the Disk for there use.

[P Smith]

The 622's disk have fixed partitions: VOD - 100GB, your recordings - 200GB. The space is TAKEN.

[tnsprin]

The 622's disk have fixed partitions: VOD - 100GB, your recordings - 200GB. The space is TAKEN.
Are you sure. The amount of programs that can fit on my space is higher than fit on my 921 which had 250gb, so this doesn't appear to be the case.

[P Smith]

You could check your 921 disk under Linux.

[ebaltz]

You could check your 921 disk under Linux.

Has anyone checked the 622 disk in Linux to see what it actually has?

[P Smith]

Yes, check it at http://www.satelliteguys.us/showpost.php?p=591630&postcount=6

[nazz]

Get one of those chill pads that plugs into the usb port. Set the 622 on it, the fans in the chill pad draw the heat out of the unit. Mine runs about 20 degrees cooler. Was averaging about 115 degrees, now its running around 95

I took that advice and have one on its way. Mine is running hot even though I have it on top instead of in my cabinet.

[kb7oeb]

I have one of those Kill-a-watt meters and I tested it on a bunch of my tv stuff. Most things use less than 10% of the power they use when turned on, the exception is the satellite receivers, DVR or not they use the same amount on or off.

[ebaltz]

I have one of those Kill-a-watt meters and I tested it on a bunch of my tv stuff. Most things use less than 10% of the power they use when turned on, the exception is the satellite receivers, DVR or not they use the same amount on or off.

Yeah that is kind of bogus. Definately not EnergyStar compliant.

100GB for something I will never use! What a complete waste. C'mon Dish, give us the option to stop VOD and use that space for what we really want to watch or at least provide us with a way to off load stuff.

[wingnut1]

Question, when all HD programming goes to mpeg4, will it take up less hard drive space? Will they start doing the VOD in HD at that point.

[Larry Caldwell]

Get one of those chill pads that plugs into the usb port. Set the 622 on it, the fans in the chill pad draw the heat out of the unit. Mine runs about 20 degrees cooler. Was averaging about 115 degrees, now its running around 95

How much noise do they make?

[nazz]

I bought a Vantec LapCool 3 which hasn't arrived yet but part of my decision was that it described the fans as silent. I hope that will be the case.

[RichP]

I should never have read this thread during a bout with insomnia. It is too surreal for my mind to process in this state.

MOST DVR hard drives are spinning CONSTANTLY, except for yes, the 508 and some other Dish DVRs. No Tivo's hard drive ever powers down, and there are no mass reports of Tivo HD failures or overheating.

It uses such a small amount of electricity, I can't imagine what the problem is. From someone who has worked with computers for the last 20 years, I can honestly say this thread overflows with paranoid rambling. Relax.

[rick3ry]

I do have one serious issue with the VOD.

My 622 gets darn hot. I use it all day and turn it off for the night. The hard drive on my 501 and 508 would then cool down and take a break (unless I had something set to record of course) but because VOD takes over when I'm not using the machine my poor hard drive runs near 24/7 and I have been building computers for too many years to know that drives get hurt more when they are power cycled but in this case the heat buildup for 24/7 operation can kill the drive before its time so to speak.

-JB
Actually, you get the worst of both worlds. VOD does not kick in until the unit is idle. That is, it waits until the disk spins all the way down. Then it spins it back up again about 2 minutes later. So you get the heat buildup *and* power cycling. A truly paranoid person could get the impression Dishnet had set about intentionally wrecking 508s.

[glimmie]

"Plug 622 in switched outlet"

I can't think of a better way to invite software and hardware problems. Feeding it standby power is part of ownership cost. If you don't want to pay it then send it back!

Not only are my 6000, 721, and 622 always plugged in, they are all on UPS systems. I don't have any of these reboot and lockup problems others seem to expereince.

[Larry Caldwell]

"Plug 622 in switched outlet"

I can't think of a better way to invite software and hardware problems. Feeding it standby power is part of ownership cost. If you don't want to pay it then send it back!

Not only are my 6000, 721, and 622 always plugged in, they are all on UPS systems. I don't have any of these reboot and lockup problems others seem to expereince.

Let's get this straight - you think shutting down a receiver is going to cause problems, because you don't have any problems? I bet you think the reason you don't have elephants in your yard is because you leave your receivers plugged in.

You should wait until someone reports a problem before claiming it will cause one.

[whatchel1]

Let's get this straight - you think shutting down a receiver is going to cause problems, because you don't have any problems? I bet you think the reason you don't have elephants in your yard is because you leave your receivers plugged in.

You should wait until someone reports a problem before claiming it will cause one.

The problem would be most people will switch it off at night when they go to bed. Then they would not get the updates tha E* sends down over night.

[Larry Caldwell]

The problem would be most people will switch it off at night when they go to bed. Then they would not get the updates tha E* sends down over night.

The system will just download the update when you turn it back on. The latest software is always spooling.

[Jim5506]

The easiest way to increase the failure rate of an electronic device is to be constantly powering it up and down. Most hard drive failures occur at power up. The power surge when you switch a unit on (or plug it in) is the most dangerous time.

[harsh]

The easiest way to increase the failure rate of an electronic device is to be constantly powering it up and down. Most hard drive failures occur at power up. The power surge when you switch a unit on (or plug it in) is the most dangerous time.Skip ahead a few years to the 21st century. The average power cycle life of a modern hard drive is around 200,000 power cycles. While the 508/510 drives are clearly going to be pushing much closer to that point than other drives, you've got to figure that you're talking about a complete power chop (versus a spin-down?) of the drive 182 times a day (every eight minutes) for three years to get to the MTBF.

[omarh]

That does seem rather stupid to waste 100 gigs on VOD.....a feature I very rarely ever use.

[jrb531]

That does seem rather stupid to waste 100 gigs on VOD.....a feature I very rarely ever use.

To reverse a quote from a movie in regard to VOD:

"The needs of a few outweigh the needs of the many"

IE

The need for a "few" people who cannot wait 15-30 minutes for a PPV movie to start outweigh the need to "waste" 100gig for many.

VOD is stupid stupid stupid. The only good thing about it is that maybe, just maybe, when Dish realizes just how stupid it is to waste $$$ and time transmitting movies to the 99% of the people who do not want it that maybe they will unlock the missing hard drive space.

While SD has plenty of room on the 622 the HD stuff makes the 622 hard drive seem tiny and that missing "waste of space" 100gig would go a long way toward making the limited HD record space a bit less limited.

-JB

[James Long]

The only good thing about it is that maybe, just maybe, when Dish realizes just how stupid it is to waste $$$ and time transmitting movies to the 99% of the people who do not want it that maybe they will unlock the missing hard drive space.VOD is transmitted at a time when the channels are pretty much wasted - the overnight gap between today's all day PPV and tomorrow's. If they didn't have a VOD there they would just have another play of the movie (and in many case they DO have another play of the movie, since the VODs are the same as the PPVs). The transmission is going to happen anyways. The only cost is developing the VOD application. (And the application can be used for more than consumer VOD service.)While SD has plenty of room on the 622 the HD stuff makes the 622 hard drive seem tiny and that missing "waste of space" 100gig would go a long way toward making the limited HD record space a bit less limited.The first DVR had 30 hours of storage space in SD. The 622 has 30 hours of storage in HD. Not too far off the mark.

[P Smith]

"VOD is transmitted at a time when the channels are pretty much wasted" - plain wrong statement.
VOD streams (many of them !) transmitting 24/7.

[Bill R]

The first DVR had 30 hours of storage space in SD. The 622 has 30 hours of storage in HD. Not too far off the mark.

Actually, DISH's first DVR was the model 7100 (in 1999) which had a 8.6 GB drive that allowed for 6-8 hours of recording time. Their second DVR was the model 7200 which had a 17 GB drive (latter models had a 20 GB drive).

[James Long]

"VOD is transmitted at a time when the channels are pretty much wasted" - plain wrong statement.
VOD streams (many of them !) transmitting 24/7.And pointing at the PPV channels.Actually, DISH's first DVR was the model 7100 (in 1999) which had a 8.6 GB drive that allowed for 6-8 hours of recording time. Their second DVR was the model 7200 which had a 17 GB drive (latter models had a 20 GB drive).Forgot the ancient models. :) 30hrs is a lot of space. :D

[P Smith]

And pointing at the PPV channels.Forgot the ancient models. :) 30hrs is a lot of space. :D
You're right - nothing waisting ;) - the VOD service just using same feeds what PPV have.
There are some tecnnical info about VOD: from tpn23@119W and tpn2,6,8@110W.

[jrb531]

This has nothing to do with anyone losing anything.

I understand that the 100gig was set aside and never advertised as being a part of the space we would have.

I understand that the download only happens when I am not using the unit.

I understand that the electricity used is minimal.

This does have to do with:

1. Whether the hard drive remains spinning or not this is not the source of many hard drive problems. Aside from the main issue of power cycles the movement of the read/write heads are the second source of issues and even if the hard drive motor remains spinning 24/7, the use of the hard drive requires the typical read/write movements that add a huge potential issue.

This is why people who use computers with too little memory go through many more hard drives than others. When a computer does not have enough memory it will attempt to use "pretend memory" or your hard drive. Using the hard drive in this fasion has nothing to do with the platter spinning but the continuos non-stop use of the read/write head.

Sure your office computer hard drive may spin 24/7 for years with no issues but I dare you to show me the hard drive the is actually being used (read/write) 24/7 that does not wear out a "ton" faster.

Now I am not saying that VOD makes your read/write heads work 24/7 and there is always the possibility of those who watch/record on their PVR 24/7 also but any heavy use of the ahrd drive most certainly does wear out the hard drive quicker and even if VOD "only" knocked off 5% of the life of the 622 it is 5% too much when 99% of the people will never watch a single minute of VOD.

This is my point. Because a very small minority of people cannot (well at least in the eyes of Dish) wait 15-30 mins for a PPV movies to start (you can even record the darn thing yourself to watch it when you want) every single owner of a 622 has to pay the costs.

The added heat and wear on the hard drive, while seemingly hidden, will add up in the long run. I intend to have my 622 for years and years and the prospect of potential early failure just so Dish can shove unwanted crap on the hard drive just seems so completely and utterly stupid.

Maybe people are ordering VOD in droves. Maybe I'm the only one who refuses to pay $5 to watch some movie I can rent a month+ earlier for $2-$3.

Maybe Dish can offer an option to turn off VOD for those who do not want it. Make VOD "on" the default option and bury the ability to turn it off deep in the menu system. IE allow only those who really want to turn it off to do so. Allow those who do not care to keep it on.

Give me the missing 100gig and let me record some more HD :)

Ahhhhhhhh!

*smiles*

-JB

[P Smith]

They love to have a profit from the feature, I wouldn't expect any changes there soon.

[glimmie]

Let's get this straight - you think shutting down a receiver is going to cause problems, because you don't have any problems? I bet you think the reason you don't have elephants in your yard is because you leave your receivers plugged in.

You should wait until someone reports a problem before claiming it will cause one.

Let's see. I'm an EE with 20 plus years in broadcast engineering. You are listed as a "compliance officer". Now who has the education and expereince to make claims about equipment performance?

[Larry Caldwell]

Actually, DISH's first DVR was the model 7100 (in 1999) which had a 8.6 GB drive that allowed for 6-8 hours of recording time. Their second DVR was the model 7200 which had a 17 GB drive (latter models had a 20 GB drive).

Wasn't there a JVC(?) video recorder back in the '90s that recorded to digital video tape? It was an oddball because Dish didn't manufacture it. I think it came out about '97.

[Larry Caldwell]

Let's see. I'm an EE with 20 plus years in broadcast engineering. You are listed as a "compliance officer". Now who has the education and expereince to make claims about equipment performance?

Apparently you aren't much of an engineer, trying to predict equipment performance with no data.

I have spent the last 40 years correcting engineering screwups. Pardon me if I'm not impressed.

[LtMunst]

Since my VOD menu was filled, the turnover had been very low. At the outside, 1 or 2 new movies are downloaded each week. Pretty much the same junk just sits there for months.

All this carping about the downloads burning up the useable life of our DVRs is ridiculous. Is the VOD a waste of space?....sure. But please, let's stop with the 2 hours a week will ruin my hardrive nonsense.

[kb7oeb]

Wasn't there a JVC(?) video recorder back in the '90s that recorded to digital video tape? It was an oddball because Dish didn't manufacture it. I think it came out about '97.

It was a JVC D-VHS deck, it is an early version of the DVHS decks used for HD video tape.

It would be better if it was more like VOD on cable,they could set it up so if you had HBO it would download some of the HBO or Showtime shows, cable VOD sometimes has episodes that are no longer on the channels. Maybe the could do a deal so when a new show pilots on a channel they could download it to the VOD section and try to entice people to subscribe to more programing.

I will never use the VOD feature, I would wait for the PPV to save a buck.

[jrb531]

Any EE's or other "techs" want to comment on the difference between a hard drive "motor" spinning 24/7 vs excessive use of the read/write heads?

I know that spinning a motor is not that big a deal. What concerns me is the life expectancy of the servo motor that controls the movement of the read/write head.

-JB

[jrb531]

Since my VOD menu was filled, the turnover had been very low. At the outside, 1 or 2 new movies are downloaded each week. Pretty much the same junk just sits there for months.

All this carping about the downloads burning up the useable life of our DVRs is ridiculous. Is the VOD a waste of space?....sure. But please, let's stop with the 2 hours a week will ruin my hardrive nonsense.

Since I have not been taking a survey on how often a movie is downloaded I can only comment based on your finding. If they only push 1-2 movies a week then I am not as concerned. Still a "huge" waste of space but I agree that 1-2 movies is not as big a deal.

Still wish we could elect to "opt out" and somehow get the 100gig space back.

-JB

[ebaltz]

Since I have not been taking a survey on how often a movie is downloaded I can only comment based on your finding. If they only push 1-2 movies a week then I am not as concerned. Still a "huge" waste of space but I agree that 1-2 movies is not as big a deal.

Still wish we could elect to "opt out" and somehow get the 100gig space back.

-JB

Isn't there a way where we could adjust the partition size and make the VOD partition size like 10GIG instead of 100?

[P Smith]

No, the 30 hrs of HD or 280 hrs of SD limits hardcoded in file system manager.
Also, check Pepper's post - if I recall any attempt to resize the partitions will force reformat the disk to factory status.

Regarding heads movement [seeks], it's taking 1/2 of power for spin-up. Check clause 4.5 of the Maxtor spec: http://maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation/manuals/diamondmax_10_product_manual_sata.pdf
Actually R/W and Idle are 1/3 and 1/5 against spin-up.

[glimmie]

Apparently you aren't much of an engineer, trying to predict equipment performance with no data.

I have spent the last 40 years correcting engineering screwups. Pardon me if I'm not impressed.

How long does it take for a Dish receiver to cold start - several minutes. Now if you want to unplug yours go ahead. But the concensus thus far is with me here. These receivers are best left plugged in 24/7.

[bkleven]

Look, this whole argument about whether drives handle 24/7 power-on or repeated power cycles better really depends on the drive.

To give a little qualification to my statements, I work in the storage industry. I don't work for one of the big 3(2) drive companies, but I do work very closely with one of them doing IC design type work. Sorry, can't get more specific than that.

Both of these usage scenarios are a stress on the device - they really are the two opposite ends of the spectrum - spin up/down at least once every 24 hours or spin up with no down for more than a year.

For the IC's in the device, 24/7/365 power-on is the better scenario, unless they are el cheapo crap. The in-rush current at power up can vary significantly depending on how the logic in the IC is actually designed. Less expensive devices will not likely have benefited from the extra man-hours to design circuits that power-on in such a way as to minimize in-rush current. It's not that hard to do, but it takes more time, and time is money. High in-rush current can cause rapid heating of the IC and shorten its lifetime, perhaps significantly if there are a lot of power cycles.

I don't know as much about the electro-mechanical portions of the drive, but the concern about the servo motor is valid. There are really two major things that you need to worry about for a 24/7/365 power-on (and spin-up) usage scenario:

1. Spindle bearing lifetime
2. Servo motor (as well as the entire R/W head/arm lifetime)

It's also worth noting that the R/W heads used for perpendicular drives have a shorter lifetime (if I remember correctly) but they still should exceed 5 years in the majority of applications.

So, to sum up: What kind of drive is in these DVRs? If it's an enterprise class drive, I wouldn't worry about 24/7/365 operation being an issue. It's also possible that these drives are OEM models that are built to the spec of the DVR, which would factor in the desired usage pattern. So... the drives just might have higher quality spindle bearings, servo motors, R/W heads, etc. to support an always-on usage scenario.

Basically, you'll need more data about the drive to determine what usage scenario puts more stress on the drive.

[P Smith]

Maxtor 6L320S0, no info about the model posted, but you can find for 6L300S0 at Maxtor site.

[jrb531]

One of the reasons you want you make sure your hard drive is defragged is that when a file is broken up in 1 or 2 parks the read/write head only has to move a very little to read the file needed. If, for example, your files are broken up into dozens (or more!) parts located all over the drive the read head has to move all over the place to read the file.

Sure they are designed to do this but every mechanical part does wear out and those that do not defrag their hard drives can increase the wear time of their drive considerably much as those who run with too little memory.

I know that the PVR's auto defrag but I wonder how often and how well they do it. Due to the very nature of how a PVR works - recording the last xxx minutes of what you are watching even when you are not actively recording something, I would venture to guess that the hard drive gets "very" fragmented. The 622 has the potential to be a huge mess IMHO.

Worst case scenario with a 622:

You have a single hard drive recording two shows at one time (I guess you can even add a third if you record OTA) while watching two pre-recorded shows on two difference sets.

Just imagine the work that poor R/W head has to do!

Since the hard drive is likely not going to be freshly defragged, the two shows being recorded are going to be recorded all over the place in bits and pieces. Add to this the R/W heads will have to be reading from multiple points on the drive at the same time.

I guess we should be happy that it even works as wekk as it does :)

So anything I can do to keep the unit cool and minimize the wear and tear on the hard drive is a big plus in my book.

I guess in about a year we will see if the hard drives they use in the 622 are up to the task. Most people will not beat up the 622 hard drive but it will be very interesting to see how the 622 holds up to heavy use.

-JB

[jrb531]

I was able to find the spec sheet on the drive:

This is a regular consumer drive.

http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation/data_sheets/diamondmax_10_data_sheet.pdf

This is for the 6L300S0 instead of the "320" so it's prob the same drive. The 320 means a 320gig drive instead of 300.

-JB (They advertise a 250gig drive and the 622 really has a 320gig hard drive so the VOD portion cannot be more than 70gig and prob less if you take into account formatting and other space needed for storing data such as your program guide and other record keeping functions)

Specs:

320gig drive
16meg buffer
Serial ATA
1.5 Gb/S
7200rpm
Design Life: 5 years
50,000 start/stop cycles
Opperating Temp: 60 degrees C

http://www.maxtor.com/portal/site/Maxtor/menuitem.5d2b41d3cef51dfe29dd10a191346068/?channelpath=/en_us/Support/Product%20Support/Desktop%20Storage/DiamondMax%20Family/DiamondMax%2010

[tnsprin]

I was able to find the spec sheet on the drive:

This is a regular consumer drive.

http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_us/documentation/data_sheets/diamondmax_10_data_sheet.pdf

This is for the 6L300S0 instead of the "320" so it's prob the same drive. The 320 means a 320gig drive instead of 300.

-JB (They advertise a 250gig drive and the 622 really has a 320gig hard drive so the VOD portion cannot be more than 70gig and prob less if you take into account formatting and other space needed for storing data such as your program guide and other record keeping functions)

Specs:

320gig drive
16meg buffer
Serial ATA
1.5 Gb/S
7200rpm
Design Life: 5 years
50,000 start/stop cycles
Opperating Temp: 60 degrees C

http://www.maxtor.com/portal/site/Maxtor/menuitem.5d2b41d3cef51dfe29dd10a191346068/?channelpath=/en_us/Support/Product%20Support/Desktop%20Storage/DiamondMax%20Family/DiamondMax%2010
It was always advertised as a 320 gb drive. The 921 and 942 were advertised as 250 gb. I wonder if they previously reserved a lot of space on these as well, as clearly more can be recorded on the 622 than on my 921's.

[P Smith]

<...>I know that the PVR's auto defrag but I wonder how often and how well they do it. Due to the very nature of how a PVR works - recording the last xxx minutes of what you are watching even when you are not actively recording something, I would venture to guess that the hard drive gets "very" fragmented. The 622 has the potential to be a huge mess IMHO.
<...>
-JB

Seems to me you know nothing about defrag in Dish PVR/DVRs.
Those devices never have the routine in design.
Lucky owners of 501,508, 510 and 622 - file system manager allocate for video/audio streams space by 2 or 4 MB(for 622) chunks. Other models like 522,625 or 942 suffer from high fragmentation - 10,000s clusters per file. :(

[Stewart Vernon]

I wonder if anyone has done a study on the wear & tear of hard drives operating in fragmented scenarios vs all the time used to regularly defragment a hard drive. Defragmenting also places a lot of wear & tear on the hard drive moving stuff around during the degfrag process. It's be interesting if we found similar wear & tear results.

The primary reason, in computers, to defrag the drive is to increase hard drive performance since it is slower to search & find a lot of scattered pieces of a file rather than a big contiguous chunk. I've never really heard of the wear & tear concern as a motivation for defrag.

All that said... I would not expect a PVR to be as fragmented as a traditional hard drive in a computer due to the nature of its operation. Sure it can become fragmented, no doubt... but most folks are recording at least 30 minutes, probably an hour + of programming at a time... so it should be larger chunks of hard drive space being used, and when you delete an old hour program and record a new one it may actually fit nicely in that old space.

I am sure fragmenting occurs... I just think it would not be as often as in the normal use of a computer which creates/deletes much smaller files on a regular basis.

Also, since I suspect performance is more of an issue than wear & tear... as long as the PVR can find the chunks and display in real-time, then I don't think it is a problem for most folks.

[James Long]

It was always advertised as a 320 gb drive. The 921 and 942 were advertised as 250 gb. I wonder if they previously reserved a lot of space on these as well, as clearly more can be recorded on the 622 than on my 921's.At the moment they are advertising it by the number of HOURS not by GB.

My 622 had 26:24 in PPV movies on it last night. On Sunday morning two of the 13 movies "expired" (leaving me with 11 choices totalling 22:46). Assuming from that, we are talking 30 hrs of VOD and 200 hrs of "customer space". Looks like 13% of the full hard drive set aside for VOD.

As far as the content ... it apears the 13 movies present COULD have been recorded in from PPV if the customer would have been interested in the programs before they aired. Two of the movies appear to have been 4th of July weekend specials ("An American Tale" and "Born on the Fourth of July". Several of the movies are not scheduled to air daily (it isn't a case of waiting an hour - it is waiting a day or more for the next replay).

I agree that it would be best to think ahead and just catch the PPV version. But for the few movies that have stopped airing or only air on one PPV channel it IS an "on demand" service.

[jrb531]

I wonder if anyone has done a study on the wear & tear of hard drives operating in fragmented scenarios vs all the time used to regularly defragment a hard drive. Defragmenting also places a lot of wear & tear on the hard drive moving stuff around during the degfrag process. It's be interesting if we found similar wear & tear results.

The primary reason, in computers, to defrag the drive is to increase hard drive performance since it is slower to search & find a lot of scattered pieces of a file rather than a big contiguous chunk. I've never really heard of the wear & tear concern as a motivation for defrag.

All that said... I would not expect a PVR to be as fragmented as a traditional hard drive in a computer due to the nature of its operation. Sure it can become fragmented, no doubt... but most folks are recording at least 30 minutes, probably an hour + of programming at a time... so it should be larger chunks of hard drive space being used, and when you delete an old hour program and record a new one it may actually fit nicely in that old space.

I am sure fragmenting occurs... I just think it would not be as often as in the normal use of a computer which creates/deletes much smaller files on a regular basis.

Also, since I suspect performance is more of an issue than wear & tear... as long as the PVR can find the chunks and display in real-time, then I don't think it is a problem for most folks.

I agree that most movies and shows are recorded in larger chunks but what about the automatic last 60 min record when you are just watching TV? I am going to guess and Dish has a special area of the HD set aside for this as it gets reset everytime we switch a channel.

As far as defragging being used to increase HD life I am really only refering to those who "never" defrag their drive. A ton of people to this day do not know anything about defrag and go years until the HD craps out or something on the HD gets lost due to the excessive fragmentation and then they just get another computer or take it in for tech support.

Imagine every file on the hard drive being in 10-100 parts (or more!) as opposed to someone who keeps their HD defragged. Their HD can be doing 10x the work and when you work those R/W head servos 10x as much you have to decrease the life of the HD or so I would think.

To the question about does defragging the HD have as much wear and tear on the HD as just leaving it alone. This is an easy one...

If you defrag your HD weekly or daily your HD is not as messed up and thus the defrag is short and quick. If you seldom defrag so that it takes literally hours to defrag but you seldom do it then you are not really defragging to excess.

The thing is that those who keep their HD defragged work their HD alot less during non-defrag usage as opposed to those who neglect to do it and as such every access to the HD required more work of the R/W head.

The best thing to do is to get a program like "perfectdisk" (no I do not work for them LOL) or other defrag programs that do the same in which they defrag the Hard Drive based on file useage....

IE they place the files that are seldom changed at the front of the drive so once you defrag your drive once, all subsequent defrags are short and sweet as you are only defragging the frequently used files.

The "free" defrag that you get with windows is a "stupid" defragger. It just defrags without reguard to which files will potentially get fragged in the future.

So lets assume the best case scenario for the 622:

1. Drive is formatted with large clusters so there is much less fragmentation
2. A special partition is set aside for the "temporary" current program storage
3. The 622 will auto-defrag when needed during non-use

This leaves the one question:

How hard do you work those R/W heads when you are recording 2-3 shows at the same time while watching 1-2 pre-recorded shows? Worst case scenario is that the 622 is simultainiously reading and writing 5 shows to/from the hard drive. This creates alot of heat and wear and tear on the servos and I would suspect that doing this every once in awhile will do little to shorten the life of the hard drive. Now if you make a habit of working your 622 to the max on a regualr basis then maybe additional cooling would help as well as not being surprised if you knock a year or two off the life of your 622.

Now people who are this into their recordings and TV viewings prob will not keep the 622 for 4-5 years but who knows :)

Either way I will part with another question...

I wonder who will be the first to come out with an upgradeable hard drive for these units? Buy a 622 and put any number of different sized hard drives in them. Filled up your hard drive? Why pop in another empty hard drive and keep recording :) Will external USB hard drives ever work like this for the 622 or is there some form of copyright issue?

*smiles*

-JB

[jrb531]

At the moment they are advertising it by the number of HOURS not by GB.

My 622 had 26:24 in PPV movies on it last night. On Sunday morning two of the 13 movies "expired" (leaving me with 11 choices totalling 22:46). Assuming from that, we are talking 30 hrs of VOD and 200 hrs of "customer space". Looks like 13% of the full hard drive set aside for VOD.

As far as the content ... it apears the 13 movies present COULD have been recorded in from PPV if the customer would have been interested in the programs before they aired. Two of the movies appear to have been 4th of July weekend specials ("An American Tale" and "Born on the Fourth of July". Several of the movies are not scheduled to air daily (it isn't a case of waiting an hour - it is waiting a day or more for the next replay).

I agree that it would be best to think ahead and just catch the PPV version. But for the few movies that have stopped airing or only air on one PPV channel it IS an "on demand" service.


They used to advertise that they had like 50 channels of PPV going at the same time. I wonder if they are trying to limit the number of PPV channels by using VOD.

BTW have we ever gotten a definative answer about the storage savings for Mpeg2 vs Mpeg4? I know that a few months ago I thought I read about Mpeg4 not being as good as it will be due to it not being as mature a standard and the current hardware is not able to compress as well as it will be in the future.

Since the older boxes cannot do Mpeg4 yet is Dish at least using that slightly better compression tech (forget the name) that is a bit better than Mpeg2?

-JB

[James Long]

If you defrag your HD weekly or daily your HD is not as messed up and thus the defrag is short and quick.Since we can't control the defrag on the 622 it seems rather academic and unimportant of a point. If this all can be translated into something that users can actually DO to save their hard drive then it would be more useful.

Looking at how a hard drive might become fragmented would be helpful. E* would have a pattern as to where the next moment of recording goes on the hard drive. And would have to handle situations where two or three items are recorded at the same time (including items that are set to 'record until manually stopped'). How would one best use an E* DVR?

Then again, perhaps we should look at this defragmenting argument in another way. How often does one need to defragment a Linux hard drive?They used to advertise that they had like 50 channels of PPV going at the same time. I wonder if they are trying to limit the number of PPV channels by using VOD.They have not given up a PPV channel in a while - and it was before VOD was introduced. I don't believe there have ever been 50 PPV channels (unless you're including 'sport' PPV). Perhaps the advertisement referred to 50 PPV movies in a month?

The current setup has 23 channels where the same movie plays on multiple channels for several days or weeks. These would be the most popular movies and most can start every 30 minutes (for example Date Movie takes up a 90 minute block and starts at 5:00a, 5:30a and 6:00a on 502-503-504 then repeats throughout the day).

There are also six channels that play a different movie each day. A movie may play two or three times a week on different daily channels. And, of course, there is the "last chance" channel that can play the same movie for several weeks and three specialty channels (International, Spanish and HereTV PPV).

[P Smith]

jrb531,
Your 2nd and 3rd assumptions are wrong ! :(

A2) Two life buffers taking space from same regular partition where all movies storing.
A3) Mount first two EXT3 partitions under Windows or Linux and read logs. If you'll find any hint about defragging, I'll send you a bottle of cognac. :)

"So lets assume the best case scenario for the 622:

1. Drive is formatted with large clusters so there is much less fragmentation
2. A special partition is set aside for the "temporary" current program storage
3. The 622 will auto-defrag when needed during non-use
"

[jrb531]

jrb531,
Your 2nd and 3rd assumptions are wrong ! :(

A2) Two life buffers taking space from same regular partition where all movies storing.
A3) Mount first two EXT3 partitions under Windows or Linux and read logs. If you'll find any hint about defragging, I'll send you a bottle of cognac. :)

"So lets assume the best case scenario for the 622:

1. Drive is formatted with large clusters so there is much less fragmentation
2. A special partition is set aside for the "temporary" current program storage
3. The 622 will auto-defrag when needed during non-use
"

If I recall correctly the 622 will buffer up to 60 mins (more?) of whatever you are watching. This is too long for a ram buffer so it has to go in the hard drive. By setting up a partition of the hard drive that is only large enough to store 60 mins of program you will never have that fragged because it is in it's own partition. Now the monkey wrench in this is HD programming so you would have to reserve enough for 60 mins of HD programming.

I understand what you are saying about more partitions but how would you do this? Would you make 3 partitions (1 for each potential sim recording) and then copy the program from the temp partition to the main storage partition?

So many questions... so much speculation :)

-JB

P.S. I'll split that bottle of cognac with ya :)

[P Smith]

You missed my A2) :); actually my relpies wasn't speculation, but pure facts.

[Larry Caldwell]

As far as defragging being used to increase HD life I am really only refering to those who "never" defrag their drive. A ton of people to this day do not know anything about defrag and go years until the HD craps out or something on the HD gets lost due to the excessive fragmentation and then they just get another computer or take it in for tech support.

Imagine every file on the hard drive being in 10-100 parts (or more!) as opposed to someone who keeps their HD defragged. Their HD can be doing 10x the work and when you work those R/W head servos 10x as much you have to decrease the life of the HD or so I would think.

To the question about does defragging the HD have as much wear and tear on the HD as just leaving it alone. This is an easy one...

If you defrag your HD weekly or daily your HD is not as messed up and thus the defrag is short and quick. If you seldom defrag so that it takes literally hours to defrag but you seldom do it then you are not really defragging to excess.

The thing is that those who keep their HD defragged work their HD alot less during non-defrag usage as opposed to those who neglect to do it and as such every access to the HD required more work of the R/W head.

[...]

So lets assume the best case scenario for the 622:

1. Drive is formatted with large clusters so there is much less fragmentation
2. A special partition is set aside for the "temporary" current program storage
3. The 622 will auto-defrag when needed during non-use

This leaves the one question:

How hard do you work those R/W heads when you are recording 2-3 shows at the same time while watching 1-2 pre-recorded shows? Worst case scenario is that the 622 is simultainiously reading and writing 5 shows to/from the hard drive. This creates alot of heat and wear and tear on the servos and I would suspect that doing this every once in awhile will do little to shorten the life of the hard drive. Now if you make a habit of working your 622 to the max on a regualr basis then maybe additional cooling would help as well as not being surprised if you knock a year or two off the life of your 622.

-JB

You are assuming the 622 accesses drives like a computer. That is unlikely. If you really want to know, you can download the Linux source code from Dish and find out. I suspect the 622 uses a log style file system, like NILFS.

http://nilfs.org/en/about_nilfs.html

This would eliminate most head seek operations, and would be an excellent file system for TV shows, where the data is all sequential.

If you want to defrag a DVR, just erase all the programs. Fragmentation doesn't get to be a problem until the drive is nearly full. After the drive fills up, fragmentation gets better again, because the 622 just starts deleting the oldest programming and recording to the empty space. Head movement is negligible compared to computer access. Simple tricks like read/write RAM buffering will also help. SATA drives are very smart, and the drive itself does a lot to handle data efficiently.

Some drives will always fail. A 50,000 hour drive will last 5.7 years, but that is Mean Time Between Failures. Half of the drives will fail sooner, half will last longer. Exposure to heat, vibration or electrical spikes will kill some drives prematurely. The best thing you can do for a 622 hard drive is to get a sturdy cabinet with good ventilation and buy a quality surge suppressor. If your drive fails within 5 years, that's just the luck of the draw.

[P Smith]

Your suggestion "I suspect the 622 uses a log style file system, like NILFS" is not true. 622 used two types of file systems, EXT3 for DishLinux needs and "DaveSystem" for recordings/VOD. There are no journaling features.

[Stewart Vernon]

To the question about does defragging the HD have as much wear and tear on the HD as just leaving it alone. This is an easy one...

If you defrag your HD weekly or daily your HD is not as messed up and thus the defrag is short and quick. If you seldom defrag so that it takes literally hours to defrag but you seldom do it then you are not really defragging to excess.

The thing is that those who keep their HD defragged work their HD alot less during non-defrag usage as opposed to those who neglect to do it and as such every access to the HD required more work of the R/W head.

I do defrag my computer hard drives semi-regularly... but I also look at it like taking out the trash.

I can either take out the trash daily as I generate it, or let it pile up in the kitchen until trash day and then take it all out at once. Either way takes the same amount of work and time, either in small amounts every day or all at once on trash day. The main difference is that it would stink up the kitchen if I left it all in there every day... and that would lower quality-of-life in the meantime, so I opt for taking trash outside every day instead of waiting.

I'd have to see in-depth studies... but my gut tells me that if, as you speculate, defragging often takes less time and wear on the hard drive because the drive is not very fragmented at that point... then it would also be less wear on the hard drive to operate in that not-as-fragmented state. It doesn't become a problem until the drive is very fragmented, and at that point a defrag takes a lot of time & wear too... so I suspect that savings of wear/tear are not that much different. Time of daily operation would be sped up and enjoyment of the computer enhanced by defragmenting, so that's why I do it... not for the wear it may or may not save on the drive.

Of course all that said... as I and some others have speculated, I'm not sure the same kinds of computer fragmentation happen in the same way on a PVR.

[James Long]

622 used two types of file systems, EXT3 for DishLinux needs and "DaveSystem" for recordings/VOD.Please don't confuse the speculation with the truth. :D

ATTENTION DBSTALK READERS - WHAT P SMITH IS POSTING IS NOT SPECULATION!
Hopefully that is clear and accurate. :)

[jrb531]

I do defrag my computer hard drives semi-regularly... but I also look at it like taking out the trash.

I can either take out the trash daily as I generate it, or let it pile up in the kitchen until trash day and then take it all out at once. Either way takes the same amount of work and time, either in small amounts every day or all at once on trash day. The main difference is that it would stink up the kitchen if I left it all in there every day... and that would lower quality-of-life in the meantime, so I opt for taking trash outside every day instead of waiting.

I'd have to see in-depth studies... but my gut tells me that if, as you speculate, defragging often takes less time and wear on the hard drive because the drive is not very fragmented at that point... then it would also be less wear on the hard drive to operate in that not-as-fragmented state. It doesn't become a problem until the drive is very fragmented, and at that point a defrag takes a lot of time & wear too... so I suspect that savings of wear/tear are not that much different. Time of daily operation would be sped up and enjoyment of the computer enhanced by defragmenting, so that's why I do it... not for the wear it may or may not save on the drive.

Of course all that said... as I and some others have speculated, I'm not sure the same kinds of computer fragmentation happen in the same way on a PVR.

You always have to balance these things to be practical. I know some people who set auto defrag everytime they turn on the computer. Sure it only takes 5 mins because it is done so often but when I turn on my computer I want to use it... not wait 5 mins LOL

IMHO obtaining an "intellegent" defragger is worth it's weight in gold. Once I run Perfectdisk one time my drive stays 75% defragged for months without me having to do it as it places files that are unchanged together so that area of the drive never becomes fragged. It also places system files at the front of the drive so they are accessed a ton faster.

My point about fragging is this: (numbers are but examples for an "average" daily user)

Person #1 - defrags once every six months (26 weeks)

1. Drive takes 120 mins to defrag
2. Average drive access is 25% slower due to fragmentation
3. Average R/W seeks are 25% greater due to fragmentation

Person #2 - defrags weekly

1. Drive takes 5 mins a week to defrag (130 mins)
2. Average drive access is 5% slower due to fragmentation
3. Average R/W seeks are 5% slower due to fragmentation

Now both ways take about the same time overall but person #2 has a machine that runs faster and has less wear on the hard drive.

I recommend that people defrag once a week if they use their computer daily and once a month if they use their computer less.

Considering how many systems I have worked on where people "never" defrag I would assume that I am a bit of an anal defrag person LOL. After all I would venture to guess that there are far more people who never defrag that people who do so on a regular basis. Eitehr way I'm sorry I got off the beat and path in regard to the real subject here with is the 622 and not computers :)

-JB

[P Smith]

Please don't confuse the speculation with the truth. :D

ATTENTION DBSTALK READERS - WHAT P SMITH IS POSTING IS NOT SPECULATION!
Hopefully that is clear and accurate. :)

Hehe, you know more then I thought ;).

[Larry Caldwell]

Please don't confuse the speculation with the truth. :D

ATTENTION DBSTALK READERS - WHAT P SMITH IS POSTING IS NOT SPECULATION!
Hopefully that is clear and accurate. :)

It may be accurate, but it was a little short on facts and clarity. While anyone familiar with Linux knows the EXT3 file system, I was unable to find any reference to something called "DaveSystem", unless he is referring to the Gallaudet Digital Archive Video for Education (DAVE) system. The North Plains Telescope Digital Asset Management System allows text annotation of video files, so program info and guide data would be easy to organize. Do you suppose that is what he meant?

[P Smith]

No, the name came from 622 disk partitions, probably named by that SW developers for Dish DVR.

[James Long]

I suppose the point is that although all this defrag talk in mildly interesting, it would actually be on topic in the Computers forum or elsewhere. None of us can choose whether or not or when the ViP-622 DVR hard drive is defragged or even guarantee that it NEEDS defragging.

We are a long way away from the issue of the HD space and usage E* has allegedly "stolen" from us. On the 622 13% of the unadvertised space and even less of the potential disk activity (unless you leave your DVR off with no events 18 hours a day and never use TV2).

[P Smith]

If Peter Norton's team will be interesting to port they SW to 622 platform :); actually ... this is a DishLunux - why do not open some APIs and ppl will do that for FREE ! Look for DVB open standards - how many FTA programs created ?

[gitarzan]

My 622 uses 53 watts on or off 24x7 or about 1.3 kWh/day.

My 18.1 ft Frigidaire refirgerator/freezer manufactured in September 2001 uses from 125-150 watts when running but it is off most of the time. I keep the temp turned all the way down to keep my drinks cold. It uses about 1.2 kwh/day.

[Larry Caldwell]

None of us can choose whether or not or when the ViP-622 DVR hard drive is defragged or even guarantee that it NEEDS defragging.

You can defrag your 622 any time you like just by deleting your stored programming. This allows the 622 to write files to unfragmented drive space.

[ebaltz]

My 622 uses 53 watts on or off 24x7 or about 1.3 kWh/day.

My 18.1 ft Frigidaire refirgerator/freezer manufactured in September 2001 uses from 125-150 watts when running but it is off most of the time. I keep the temp turned all the way down to keep my drinks cold. It uses about 1.2 kwh/day.


This is an excellent analysis because I couldn't figure out why my electric bill went up last year, but it coincided with my purchace of a 921 exactly (921 also did not shut down). And now with the 622 I see the same thing happening. Nothing else changed. It amounted to a specific kilowatt usage I could look up, but it seems like it might have been as much as $10 a month. They should have to post that energy usage stats on it, like the refridge and water heater etc... have to.

[Mike D-CO5]

Could it be the fuel cost to make the electricity went up last year and again presently?

This definately made my bill go up and I live in a mobile home with central air and heat, a/c window unit in the living room, two hdtvs- 26" and a 57". I also have 2 analog tvs and two computers, two vcr/dvd players/ a upconverting dvd player and a upconverting dvd recorder, and two 622 dvrs and two a/v receivers with surround sound in two rooms. A refrigerator and dishwasher and a washer and dryer that goes every day.

My bill is leveled so it won't go up like crazy in the summer. It keeps my bills around 200.00 or less each month. I do notice that my fuel costs go up when the gas prices go up at the pump. Thank God for bill leveling.

[ebaltz]

Could it be the fuel cost to make the electricity went up last year and again presently?

This definately made my bill go up and I live in a mobile home with central air and heat, a/c window unit in the living room, two hdtvs- 26" and a 57". I also have 2 analog tvs and two computers, two vcr/dvd players/ a upconverting dvd player and a upconverting dvd recorder, and two 622 dvrs and two a/v receivers with surround sound in two rooms. A refrigerator and dishwasher and a washer and dryer that goes every day.

My bill is leveled so it won't go up like crazy in the summer. It keeps my bills around 200.00 or less each month. I do notice that my fuel costs go up when the gas prices go up at the pump. Thank God for bill leveling.

Nope this was by usage not by cost. Obviously also cost went up when usage went up but my kilowat usage went up.

[James Long]

I was busy last night, so I cannot tell you if this changed on the 13th or 14th, but there are now three new VODs available on my particular 622:
"Dave Chappelle's Block Party" $4.99 1:44
"Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" $2.99 1:58
"Half Baked" $2.99 1:22
Dave Chappelle first ran on PPV on Thursday so it appears that E* downloaded it on the first day (making it "on demand" even though it is scheduled to run on two PPV channels through July 20th then drop to a single PPV channel on the 21st).
The other two movies did not appear on the PPV schedules - must have slipped those in somewhere. :D

There remain two VODs that are not scheduled to be PPV within the next week and several that one would have to wait a couple of days to see via PPV.

[Steve Mehs]

Are the hard drives really that noisy? I think some of you need some sleeping pills if the hard drive noise bothers you. I’ve had a 501, 508, DirecTiVo (Philips, RCA and Hughes models) and now my SA 8300HD and all of them made noises, the 8300HD is probably the nosiest, but I run 2 computers 24/7, my PDA is always in it’s cradle checking for new email every minute and which point it chirps every minute when one is received, in the summer the A/C is blasting and all that stuff combined doesn’t bother me, but I guess since I fall asleep to Hard Attack on Sirius or the Metal channel on Music Choice, all the other noise gets drowned out :D

[tnsprin]

Are the hard drives really that noisy? I think some of you need some sleeping pills if the hard drive noise bothers you. ...
Usually people are not hearing the hard drive, which runs fairly quietly. But on many machines the fans may be quite loud. on Dish the earlier units, including the 921, had fans that were on all the time with no speed variation. Recent models such as the 622 have variable speed fans with heat sensors. When on normal it is quite quiet. Note that if it switches to high speed (does this during the nightly reboot, so change the update time if its in a bedroom), it can be quite noisy.