My next testing project

[Wolffpack]

Well my next little exercise with the R15 is to run identical SLs/SPs on one of my Tivos as I am the R15. I have setup the same with 22 SLs/SPs and 2 Autorecords/Wishlists. I set these up today and will officially start the test tomorrow (08/10). Tonight I will review the todo lists from each unit and on the 11th I will review the actual recorded shows and report back here. If you're interested here are the SLs/SPs.

Priority Show Title Channel KAM Show Type Notes
1 Rescue Me FX All First Run
2 Deadwood HBOH All First Run
3 Last Comic Standing KPNXDT 5 First Run
4 Eureka SCFI 5 First Run
5 Feasting on Asphalt FOOD All First Run
6 CSI: Crime Scene Investigation KPHODT 5 First Run
7 Who Wants to Be a Superhero? SCFI 5 First Run
8 Life on Mars BBCA 5 Repeats & FR
9 Paula's Home Cooking FOOD 10 Repeats & FR
10 Good Eats FOOD 5 Repeats & FR
11 America's Test Kitchen From Cook's Illustrated KAETDT2 5 Repeats & FR
12 Mind of Mencia COM 10 First Run
13 Extreme Engineering DSHD 5 Repeats & FR
14 Guy's Big Bite FOOD 5 Repeats & FR
15 The Dead Zone USA 5 Repeats & FR
16 The Twilight Zone SCFI All Repeats & FR Padded 2 mins before and after
17 The Daily Show With Jon Stewart COM 5 First Run
18 Unwrapped FOOD 5 Repeats & FR
19 Dirty Jobs DSC 5 First Run
20 Chappelle's Show COM All Repeats & FR
21 South Park COM 5 Repeats & FR
22 HACKMAN All Repeats & FR Wishlist/Autorecord
23 LITHGOW, JOHN All Repeats & FR Wishlist/Autorecord
24 The 4400 USA 5 First Run


I'll be testing the R15 against a HR10-250 running 3.1.5. Both have dual SAT feeds. Some programs on the HR10 are set to record on HD channels and the R15 will record on the corresponding SD channel.

[klwillis]

Good Luck.
Very interesting.

Well my next little exercise with the R15 is to run identical SLs/SPs on one of my Tivos as I am the R15. I have setup the same with 22 SLs/SPs and 2 Autorecords/Wishlists. I set these up today and will officially start the test tomorrow (08/10). Tonight I will review the todo lists from each unit and on the 11th I will review the actual recorded shows and report back here. If you're interested here are the SLs/SPs.

Priority Show Title Channel KAM Show Type Notes
1 Rescue Me FX All First Run
2 Deadwood HBOH All First Run
3 Last Comic Standing KPNXDT 5 First Run
4 Eureka SCFI 5 First Run
5 Feasting on Asphalt FOOD All First Run
6 CSI: Crime Scene Investigation KPHODT 5 First Run
7 Who Wants to Be a Superhero? SCFI 5 First Run
8 Life on Mars BBCA 5 Repeats & FR
9 Paula's Home Cooking FOOD 10 Repeats & FR
10 Good Eats FOOD 5 Repeats & FR
11 America's Test Kitchen From Cook's Illustrated KAETDT2 5 Repeats & FR
12 Mind of Mencia COM 10 First Run
13 Extreme Engineering DSHD 5 Repeats & FR
14 Guy's Big Bite FOOD 5 Repeats & FR
15 The Dead Zone USA 5 Repeats & FR
16 The Twilight Zone SCFI All Repeats & FR Padded 2 mins before and after
17 The Daily Show With Jon Stewart COM 5 First Run
18 Unwrapped FOOD 5 Repeats & FR
19 Dirty Jobs DSC 5 First Run
20 Chappelle's Show COM All Repeats & FR
21 South Park COM 5 Repeats & FR
22 HACKMAN All Repeats & FR Wishlist/Autorecord
23 LITHGOW, JOHN All Repeats & FR Wishlist/Autorecord
24 The 4400 USA 5 First Run


I'll be testing the R15 against a HR10-250 running 3.1.5. Both have dual SAT feeds. Some programs on the HR10 are set to record on HD channels and the R15 will record on the corresponding SD channel.

[wohlfie]

This should be interesting!

(btw, thanks to everyone who do all these tests. I wish I had the time....)

[Wolffpack]

Who said anyone has time? :eek2:

[Wolffpack]

For anyone that would like to track what I'm tracking, here you go. Here's a PDF of the master SL/SP list as stated above. I've also included the TDL review for shows scheduled to record tomorrow. Note the showing of Wyatt Earp which the R15 currently thinks it can record while also recording two other shows. Interesting to see how this is handled.

[walters]

For anyone that would like to track what I'm tracking, here you go. Here's a PDF of the master SL/SP list as stated above. I've also included the TDL review for shows scheduled to record tomorrow. Note the showing of Wyatt Earp which the R15 currently thinks it can record while also recording two other shows. Interesting to see how this is handled.

Isn't it just going to record a partial?

[Bobman]

Well my next little exercise with the R15 is to run identical SLs/SPs on one of my Tivos as I am the R15.


I am already doing something similiar. I have my R-10 and two R-15s loaded up identical. I need to use 2 R-15s as I have so many SP's on the R-10.

I am not keeping exact records like your doing but so far the DirecTiVo R-10 is working flawless but I think we knew it would.

[Wolffpack]

While my test didn't officially start until 12:00 am this morning, I did see something interesting in the recordings last night.

Between 10:00-11:00 pm last night the following shows in my list were being aired.


10:00 - 10:30 Twilight Zone
10:30 - 11:00 Twilight Zone
10:00 - 10:30 The Daily Show
10:00 - 11:00 The 4400

My SL/SP has priorities set for TZ, then TDS, then 4400. I also had set TZ to pad 2 minutes before and after.

Here's what the Tivo did:

Recorded the first TZ starting at 9:58 and ending at 10:32 (34 minutes)
Recorded the second TZ starting at 10:28 ending at 11:02 (34 minutes)
Recorded the 10:00pm episode (Thursday's episode) of TDS this morning at 5:00 am (30 minutes)
4400 originally aired on 08/06 so it was not scheduled to record

Here's what the R15 did:

Recorded the first TZ starting at 9:58 but stopped at 10:28 (32 minutes)
Recorded TDS at starting at 10:00 ending at 10:30 (30 minutes)
Recorded the second TZ starting at 10:28 ending at 11:00 (32 minutes)
Recorded the last half of 4400 starting at 10:30 ending at 11:00 (30 minutes)

I my mind the Tivo handled the recordings as it should have. I have no idea what type of logic the R15 is using. I have the TZ SL coded to pad 2 minutes before and 2 minutes after, the R15 chose not to pad after. Is that a bug or by design?

The R15 recorded the last half of 4400 even though it was not a FR. It shouldn't have even tried but we all understand the FR logic problems. What I don't understand is why the R15 would think recording the last half of a show as acceptable? Is this a bug or by design?

The second recording of TZ will not play. Black screen and frozen timeline bar. I can press FF and I can see FF1 FF2 FF3 and FF4 but nothing happens. If I jump to end (holding down the slip button) it does jump to 30 seconds before the end of the show. From that point I can RR back to almost the beginning. If I RR too far it gets to the start and will not play again. It does have the entire show recorded (well minus the 2 minutes) but it's tough to get to.

In looking at the TDL between the Tivo and R15 the Tivo has 143 TDL items (not including Tivo and DVR service items) through 08/22. The R15 has 99 items through 08/20. While I was looking at the TDL on the R15 last night, items were changing frequently. The TDL on the Tivo seems to have been set and I have not seen any changes.

So far today, the R15 has recorded the shows I expected it to record. Full report tomorrow.

[cabanaboy1977]

You might want to take Last Comic Standing off the list. That ended Wed.

[wohlfie]

I my mind the Tivo handled the recordings as it should have. I have no idea what type of logic the R15 is using. I have the TZ SL coded to pad 2 minutes before and 2 minutes after, the R15 chose not to pad after. Is that a bug or by design?




Not sure I agree....sounds like the TIVO used BOTH of its tuners to record 'discrete' TZs with both paddings....forcing it to find an alternate TDS.

The R-15 made a clumsy attempt at recognizing it could handle both TZ with ONE tuner, and still record TDS the first time around along with half of the 4400.

Granted the results are a little screwy....have to go to the second recording to see the last 2 minutes of the 2nd TZ which has no end padding, and 4400 is useless as a both a repeat AND half an episode.


I would hazard a guess that maybe the R15 software is trying to 'overthink' situations and this leads to the bizarre result we occasionally get.

You gotta admit the R-15 ran both tuners for the full hour and recorded everything it possibly could...and finished the tasks set it within the hour.
The TIVO had tuners sitting idle, and wasn't done till the next morning as it waited for a TDS repeat. :D

[mikewolf13]

The R15 recorded the last half of 4400 even though it was not a FR. It shouldn't have even tried but we all understand the FR logic problems. What I don't understand is why the R15 would think recording the last half of a show as acceptable? Is this a bug or by design?

.

First off I commend your efforts. And generaly i agree with everything you have said.

I think a legitimate reason the R15 records partials is to resolve instances where a show runs long by schedule or pad and you may want 58 minutes of the 11pm show after TZ ends..where as Tivo would not record it at all and if there was not a re-airing you could miss it. (assuming other tuner otherwise occupied and 11pm show is not on TZ channel)

Now of course I think this logic is incomplete as 30 min of an hour show is silly but 58 min of 60 min show may be good.

Again the logic/design is somewhat baffling. They took what might be a good idea, and messed it up (maybe that should be the slogan):lol:

If you can test this , how come they couldn't? Who thought 30 min of 60 min show was good idea? :nono2:

If you are gonna put a limit on SL and TDL don't you test at 50 SL?? Especially if those limits are (as rumored) there by design to enhance stability.:confused:

I eagelrly anticpate your results.

[Upstream]

Who thought 30 min of 60 min show was good idea? :nono2:




I think there was a discussion on the best way to record partials a few weeks ago.

While 30 minutes of a 60 minute show might not be good most of the time, I can think of lots of occassions when it is better than nothing (such as a sporting event where you still get to see some of the show, or a reality show where your primary interest is who go eliminated, or a news magazine where my interest is mostly in a story at the end of the show).

Ideally, I would want the machine to record the partial, note that it is a partial, and attempt to also record the full show when it is available. That gives me the flexibility to watch or ignore the partial recording. But I get to make the choice.

[wohlfie]

I think there was a discussion on the best way to record partials a few weeks ago.

While 30 minutes of a 60 minute show might not be good most of the time, I can think of lots of occassions when it is better than nothing (such as a sporting event where you still get to see some of the show, or a reality show where your primary interest is who go eliminated, or a news magazine where my interest is mostly in a story at the end of the show).

Ideally, I would want the machine to record the partial, note that it is a partial, and attempt to also record the full show when it is available. That gives me the flexibility to watch or ignore the partial recording. But I get to make the choice.

Yeah...I agree.....better to record too much than too little...AS LONG AS IT LOOKS for a chance to record the whole thing later....

[cabanaboy1977]

Ideally, I would want the machine to record the partial, note that it is a partial, and attempt to also record the full show when it is available. That gives me the flexibility to watch or ignore the partial recording. But I get to make the choice.

Exactly, I like that they made it record when it can but don't mark it off as you record it and bypass the next showings (same goes for singal loss and power loss)

[Bobman]

I would prefer zero partials like the DirecTiVos do as everytime I get one I get pissed and just delete it.

[Clint Lamor]

I would prefer zero partials like the DirecTiVos do as everytime I get one I get pissed and just delete it.

I agree, no partials and just have the history tell me exactly why the show didn't record.

[Upstream]

Disagree. I would want the partial and the option to watch it or delete it. I don't like machines making needless decisions for me.

[cabanaboy1977]

Partials are a good idea, only if they record the next showing. You might even run into a case where you'll get two partials one with the begining and one with the end and some overlap in between. I always was upset that the UTV wouldn't do that. I think it's about a 50/50 shot is a partial is a good thing. Might as well work it in since half the time it is a good idea it's just not a good idea unless it records a full showing (if it can later). I understand why you wouldn't want them but there's no reason it shouldn't if it can. right now the way it is doesn't work. Hopefully they will fix it to pick up the next showing too if it can.

[Clint Lamor]

Disagree. I would want the partial and the option to watch it or delete it. I don't like machines making needless decisions for me.

But it is making the decision to only record part of the show. I just don't like that I only get to watch a small portion of a show. I have no desire to watch the first 15-30 minutes of a 60 minute show or the last 15-30 minutes of a 60 minute show and so on. Just doesn't make sense. If I record a show I want to see all of it or none of but thats just me.

[Upstream]

Clint -- My ideal (the machine records the partial, notes that it is a partial, and attempts to also record the full show when it is available) gives you the option you want:

Don't watch the partial, and watch the whole thing when it is recorded.

But it also allows the choice to watch the partial for those who want to.

[Wolffpack]

Not sure I agree....sounds like the TIVO used BOTH of its tuners to record 'discrete' TZs with both paddings....forcing it to find an alternate TDS.
How didn't the Tivo handle this correctly? TZ was the top priority SP and it was padded 2 minutes before and after. To acomplish this it needed both tuners during this period so TDS was bumped to a later showing. 4400 wasn't an issue as it wasn't a first run. This is how I want my DVRs to work. Just as I tell them to work.

[Wolffpack]

First off I commend your efforts. And generaly i agree with everything you have said.
Thanks fellow wolf!

I think a legitimate reason the R15 records partials is to resolve instances where a show runs long by schedule or pad and you may want 58 minutes of the 11pm show after TZ ends..where as Tivo would not record it at all and if there was not a re-airing you could miss it. (assuming other tuner otherwise occupied and 11pm show is not on TZ channel)
I do not believe there's any intended logic here. I think these are Oppses. Today alone my unit recorded 60 minutes of both Wyatt Earp and Enemy of the State. Do the DTV software engineers think we're going to piece these shows together later? 60 minutes here 30 minutes there? Plus, I have yet to review the days progress but I would think the R15 thinks it recorded these and will not again unless I delete these shows.

[Wolffpack]

Disagree. I would want the partial and the option to watch it or delete it. I don't like machines making needless decisions for me.
One item to keep in mind it that 4400 wasn't a first run and shouldn't have been recorded to begin with. Let alone the last 30 minutes of it. Tivo didn't record it.

[Wolffpack]

But it is making the decision to only record part of the show. I just don't like that I only get to watch a small portion of a show. I have no desire to watch the first 15-30 minutes of a 60 minute show or the last 15-30 minutes of a 60 minute show and so on. Just doesn't make sense. If I record a show I want to see all of it or none of but thats just me.
I don't think the R15 is making the decision to record part of the show. I don't think any DVR would have code in it that said "hey record what you can". I think these are all bugs....or I guess features depending on how you look at it.

[Wolffpack]

Clint -- My ideal (the machine records the partial, notes that it is a partial, and attempts to also record the full show when it is available) gives you the option you want:

Don't watch the partial, and watch the whole thing when it is recorded.

But it also allows the choice to watch the partial for those who want to.
That will really take up a ton of HD space. So you would end up with maybe 4 hours of one movie with different parts? That's what you really want to see versus it recording the entire movie/show?

[morgantown]

Record what I want -- how I requested it. That's what should be expected.

As far as partial recordings and the system flaging the partial and wanting to do only a full record at the next showing... That concept could be of some use with DBS considering rain fade.

Frankly rain fade is usually very infrequent so the need is probably far outweighed by efficiency of not being so redundant. If it is a movie on HBO, you easily will be able to request another showing without the unit doing it for you. If it is a network primetime show I really don't care to get a full recording two months later as a repeat (unless I tell it to).

As far as partial recordings being frequent without rain fade, that is just a flaw of the system that needs fixed. No need creating a band-aid for a system defect -- just fix the defect (IMHO).

[Bobman]

I just dont want any partials. They are either the beginning of the show and you get all into the show then it just ends in the middle leaving you hanging and frustrated. Or you start to watch it and it starts at a critical good point leaving you wondering what you missed as your coming in at the end.

Either way I get pissed so I just delete any partials and would prefer them not to record even if the show will not be shown again. I would rather see nothing than be left frustrated and hanging watching a few minutes of it.

[cabanaboy1977]

Record what I want -- how I requested it. That's what should be expected.

As far as partial recordings and the system flaging the partial and wanting to do only a full record at the next showing... That concept could be of some use with DBS considering rain fade.

Frankly rain fade is usually very infrequent so the need is probably far outweighed by efficiency of not being so redundant. If it is a movie on HBO, you easily will be able to request another showing without the unit doing it for you. If it is a network primetime show I really don't care to get a full recording two months later as a repeat (unless I tell it to).

As far as partial recordings being frequent without rain fade, that is just a flaw of the system that needs fixed. No need creating a band-aid for a system defect -- just fix the defect (IMHO).

I just don't seeing it hurting things in the long run. If they keep partials and record the next showing (if there is one) and apply this same logic to raid fade and power loses (and not deleting the first half of the show) I really don't see an issue. Yes you'd waste some space sometime but I think the benifits are better.

With you movie example your right I could record the next showing, but the way that I normal use the DVR I don't try to watch it ever day so if the next showing was only then next day or same day I may not get the chance to see that it didn't record till 3 days later and then I've missed out on it (I know HBO shows it like 200 times but I'm talking about other movies). Infact that why I would want partials and the second recording if it can. I don't know a lot of times that I have a partial untill a couple of days later. If the system just deleted the show because it was a partial and then records the next showing but then that showing is effected by rain so it deletes that so it record the next on and that has a power issue so it reboots. I know that's a little extreme but I'd rather have too much then nothing at all. And if there is no next showing I'd like the option to watch what it could record. Besides reality TV that they usally only show once there's sports (you rather have the R15 not record a whole game when it would maybe only miss the first 3 mins?), news and I'm sure there are others where you won't mind not seeing the whole thing.

I just think it would be better to have it with improved logic to record a future showing if it can. Heck maybe they should make it another user defined option. One not to record partials at all and the other to record partial but also record a future showing. I think the rainfade and power loss ones should be on all the time to record a future showing if it can.

[Wolffpack]

In addition to partial recordings taking up disk space there is one other important resource being used, tuner time. If the R15 is recording the first 60 minutes of a movie (like it did Wyatt Earp and Enemy of the State) there may have been other shows in you SL at a lower priority that would not be recorded. So a one hour show is also on during the first hour of Wyatt Earp shouldn't the R15 record the complete show that's a lower priority rather than record a partial?

This problem also applies to all of those repeats that are recorded. Sure, everyone says they can delete the extra recordings, no big deal. But what if a first run of a lower priority show was also on at the same time the R15 was recording a repeat you already saw. You're only hope at that point is that it will also record the repeat of the show it missed while recording another repeat.

Improperly recording repeats and partials can only add to further shows being missed.

[Wolffpack]

Here are the results from Thursday Aug 10th.

Of the 14 shows that Tivo had set to record 12 recorded properly and were in the R15 TDL eventually. One show that was missed on the R15 was recorded Wednesday night and caused the problem of Twilight Zone not padding properly and the last half of The 4400 being recorded (as mentioned above). The R15 attempted to record the other missed show (Wyatt Earp) at a different time. Tivo had Wyatt Earp scheduled for 10:00pm which it recorded properly. R15 had WE scheduled for 7:00pm which conflicted with two other higher priority shows scheduled for 8:00pm. Thus the R15 only recorded the first 60 minutes of the 7:00pm showing of WE. The R15 didn't try recording the 10:00pm showing which it could have done.

The R15 also attempted to record the 5:00pm showing of Enemy of the State even though there were two higher priority shows scheduled to record at 6:00pm. Again the R15 recorded the first 60 minutes of this showing of EotS.

The R15 also recorded repeat showings of Who Wants to be a Superhero which aired at 4:00pm and 5:00pm.

As WE and EotS were scheduled via Autorecord at first I thought this could be a problem area however, The Royal Tenebaums was also scheduled via AR and the R15 handled this correctly.

One other item I did notice is the TDL on the R15 is changing quite a bit while the Tivo TDL was stable since the first time I viewed it.

[Wolffpack]

Here are the results from Friday August 11th.

Of the 11 shows that Tivo had set to record The R15 recorded 9 properly.

One show not recorded by the R15 was Enemy of the State. The Tivo recorded the entire show Friday at 2:15pm. The R15 tried to record EotS Thursday but scheduled it along with 2 other higher priority programs and the R15 only recorded the first 60 minutes of EotS.

The other missed show was the 9:00pm showing of South Park. I have no guess at why the R15 would have missed this. There were two other shows scheduled for the 8:00 hour. 8:00-8:30 was Good Eats and the R15 recorded that fine. 8:00-9:03 was Rescue Me (a repeat that it shouldn't have recorded). So at 9:00 the R15 had a free tuner but did not record South Park.

The R15 also recorded Harry & the Hendersons at 12:30pm that the Tivo did not record. The Tivo has this scheduled for 08/15.

The R15 correctly recorded The Package at 10:35pm however at 9:00pm The Package was not in the R15 TDL.

Repeats: The R15 also recorded repeat episodes on Eureka, two episodes of Deadwood and one episode of Rescue Me. Obviously the Tivo did not.

Summary: After two days we have the following:

The R15 properly recorded 21 shows that were also scheduled on the Tivo.
The R15 completely missed 1 show that I cannot explain.
The R15 recorded 6 shows that were repeats and the SLs were set to First Run only.
The R15 recorded partial recording of 2 different Autorecord shows due to it's scheduling of more than two shows at a time. These partial recordings have been deleted yet they do not appear anywhere in the R15 TDL at this time. The Tivo properly recorded these shows.

Finally the results for today will be very scewed as the R15 didn't "wake up" from StandBy this morning. It froze sometime early this morning and has already missed 4 shows and recorded 2 partials. There are only two more shows set to record for the remainder of the day and the R15 only has one of them scheduled in the TDL since the RESET that was forced this morning.

[cabanaboy1977]

Improperly recording repeats and partials can only add to further shows being missed.

True but if the to list showed the next recorded show in a different color (on the todo list) and put it as a lowest priority it should work ok. That way it would be easy to look at you todo list and see that it was going to record it because you have a partial/power issue/signal loss. That would be nice two if it flaged the todo list two (at least on that show or group) so that you'd know it was a messed up recording. I hate not finding out I have a partial untill two days later, when I watch the show, when I could have hate an icon or color in MYVOD let me know that I had a show with an issue and could then resolve that issue if possible.

[qwerty]

I just don't seeing it hurting things in the long run. If they keep partials and record the next showing (if there is one) and apply this same logic to raid fade and power loses (and not deleting the first half of the show) I really don't see an issue. Yes you'd waste some space sometime but I think the benifits are better.

I'm with Bobman on this. But, how about a dialouge box at the end of the recording? ??? was partially recorded due to... Would you like to keep and record next showing, keep and do not record next showing or delete and record next showing?

[Wolffpack]

Guys, no one wants partials. The R15 isn't designed to do partials. It's doing them because of bugs.

We're not talking about rain fade or power outages and such. Those are just a what if in relations to the partials I'm running into. The partials I've run into in this experiment are totally due to the R15's lack of proper scheduling.

I want my DVR to record complete shows. I don't want it to try and figure out "hay, I can get the first 30 minutes here....and then the next 60 minutes there, and finally finish it up two day later". I want the entire show or not. If not, give me something in the TDL that shows this will not work, you will miss this recording. Then try to record the next showing if possible.

Again, these partials I'm running into are because the R15 scheduled a two hour movie at 5:00 and then also scheduled two individual shows which have a higher priority at 6:00.

There are still MAJOR problems with the scheduling logic that I'm seeing in this 2 1/2 day old test. A show not recorded for no reason. Partials recorded and noted in history, but never any attempt to record the entire show.

I've got an open mind here and I'm taking time to document the exact same schedule between a Tivo unit and a R15. I plan on running this test through the end of next week, but geez-oh-petes, even with this new version of the software there are way too many problems.

I'm just a DTV customer sitting here in AZ that is running through a test scenario of my own design on my own time. I'm finding alot of problems. Please, someone tell me why the R15 development staff hasn't done something like this before? Why haven't they been able to identify these problems and debug them? I'm not using any freking rocket science here. I cannot see anything the R15 is doing internally. I have no secrets on how the R15 stores or processes data, I'm just comparing a DTV DVR that works (Tivo), to one that doesn't (R15) given the same requests from a Joe User standpoint.

Earl, don't even ask if these are re-producible. If I were to be running this type of test in the R15 development labs, I've got all the DEBUG flags turned on and I can see why, for example, South Park didn't record last night. I can see why the R15 tried to schedule Wyatt Earp and Enemy of the State at the same time it was already recording two other shows. I would also be able to see why those partial recordings were not recorded at future times when they were available and the R15 had no scheduling conflicts. All items that the folks working being paid full time should be able to figure out.

I'm beginning to believe the only testing being done on new versions of the OS is being done in the field by DTV employees. I'm beginning to believe there are no R15 development staff even testing these units. Why, because the first thing they should do is exactly what I'm doing here. I could be way off base but I'm seeing a overworked group of developers that use duct tape and peanut butter to fix a few items they can fix, then roll those test version out to CSRs they get a free DVR to work with and "test". But that's just my opinion.

These are all problems that should have been handled long ago. IMO.

With the current version of the R15's OS I truly was expecting better performance that what I've seen. We are talking about a unit that was released almost 10 months ago that still cannot perform basic DVR functions. This truly sad.

[brykc14]

I have to agree with ya wolf..these problems should have been taken care of a long time ago. The updates we have recieve doesnt seem to being do anything for the SL's. There just doesnt seem to be any logic to what it records and when or if it does. Its almost like a tornado, destroys one house and barely scracthes the one next door.

[Bobman]

Guys, no one wants partials. The R15 isn't designed to do partials. It's doing them because of bugs.


I could be wrong :D :D but I thought in another thread recently it was said this was/might be a feature of the R-15 and it was thought better to record something than nothing (what DirecTiVos would do).

I just delete partials myself but I remember some thought this was a nice "feature".

[Wolffpack]

I could be wrong :D :D but I thought in another thread recently it was said this was/might be a feature of the R-15 and it was thought better to record something than nothing (what DirecTiVos would do).

I just delete partials myself but I remember some thought this was a nice "feature".
I agree if the partial is caused by a power failure or loss of signal, but when it records a partial just because it didn't schedule correctly that's a bug. Also, I believe the discussion was that if should keep the first part of the recording and then start recording after the unit comes backup so that you have two sections of the show. The section before the power failure and the section after.

[Wolffpack]

Here are the results from Saturday, August 12th.

Not a good day for the R15. The unit was frozen up tight Saturday morning. After a RESET at about 9:00am here's what recorded.

Of the 8 shows that Tivo had set to record The R15 recorded 1 properly. Four entire shows were missed due to the R15 hanging. Two additional shows recorded partials (the last part after the reset).

The R15 did properly record Unwapped at 2:00pm but for some reason it missed Feasting on Asphalt at 6:00pm. This was a first run episode but never appeared in the TDL. Nothing else was scheduled on the R15 during that time. This episode is in the TDL on the R15 for Wed 08/16.

[tfederov]

Not good for the home team, eh? Looks like I'll be holding on to my HD TiVos a little longer if the R15's big brother is gonna act the same way.

[mikewolf13]

I do not believe there's any intended logic here. I think these are Oppses. Today alone my unit recorded 60 minutes of both Wyatt Earp and Enemy of the State. Do the DTV software engineers think we're going to piece these shows together later?

I think it is intentional and not an OOPS (not opps(?)). but incomplete...NBC in particualr ahs purposely made myuch of it's programming (esp thurs night run at off times 9:30-10:01 so that your 10pm show you might have a SL or SP for does not record, unless it is also NBC..and thus eliminating the conflict (if any) and then recording the 10pm NBC show at 10:01....

For this purpose alone I like the idea of the partial. But once more than 3 or 5 minutes is missed, I would ignore recording the partial altogether (this is the part of the logic they skipped/forgot/overlooked?

it's silly to record half a movie or half a show... but 59/60 min...maybe a good thing especially when the channels playing these games (networks) don't re-air multiple times in week (unlike most cable series).

I honestly believe the intent was to counter the odd-time programming issue, but they didn't think it through to the results we see today.

As far as the harm of the current "logic" Sure all you have to do is delete partial if you don't like it but, a) it uses disk space b) it uses up some of ToDo limits.

and we know filling up your limits is not good for this machine.

[walters]

There should be an automated version of this test (many, actually) in a lab somewhere at DirecTV. Any of the modifiable (i.e. non-R10) DTiVos could easily be modified to give up the data, and since they own the source for the R15, the same could be done there. A simple app running on a PC would analyze the results, pointing out the trouble spots.

[wohlfie]

How didn't the Tivo handle this correctly? TZ was the top priority SP and it was padded 2 minutes before and after. To acomplish this it needed both tuners during this period so TDS was bumped to a later showing. 4400 wasn't an issue as it wasn't a first run. This is how I want my DVRs to work. Just as I tell them to work.

Sorry for the delay in a reply...I don't usually check the board on the weekends.

Anyway....I was not trying to say the Tivo did anything wrong. It did EXACTLY what it was told to do. What i "disagreed' with was your comment that you couldn't see ANY logic to what the R-15 did. I thought it was apparent waht it TRIED to do.

In this example, your Tivo recorded TZ from 9:58 - 10:32 and from 10:28 to 11:02. The overlap caused it to use both tuners to do this. Duplicating the recording of 10:28 - 10:32.

I believe the R-15 softawre designers did indeed TRY to 'improve' (at least in their own minds) on TIVO and may have written something in to address back to back shows or something, to free up the other tuner or to address other situations.

I was trying to point out that I think a lot of the R-15s problems are its own doing....'overthinking' situations, etc.

<stupid comment based on failure to re-read original post, editted out)

[Upstream]

Guys, no one wants partials. The R15 isn't designed to do partials. It's doing them because of bugs.


I have to disagree with your first statement. As I indicated earlier in this thread, I can think of lot's of instances where I want partials.

Regarding your comment that the R15 is recording partials because of bugs, then the solution is not to eliminate partials. The solution is to fix the scheduling bugs which cause the partials.


But it is clear from reading this thread that there are R15 customers who want partials to be recorded, and customers who do not want partials to be recorded. The R15, as currently designed, is not able to satisfy both sets of customers (and perhaps in its compromises, it satisfies neither set of customers). I think the following design would meet customer needs:

1) On the record defaults screen, allow the user to set a Yes/No default flag indicating whether they want partials to be recorded.

2) On each program/series record screen, allow the user to override the default to allow Yes/No on a partial record. (This way if I set the default to No partials, I could still tell the system to record a partial on a live event or other program I would want to be partially recorded.)

3) If a program is flagged as No partial, don't record a partial.

4) If a program is flagged as Yes partial, then record the partial; visibly note that the recording is a partial on the To-Do List, the VOD list and in the history; offer the user the option to Record or Not Record the full program next time it airs (defaulting to Record); and record the full program the next time it airs (unless the user has explicitly selected Not Record).

[cabanaboy1977]

I'm with Bobman on this. But, how about a dialouge box at the end of the recording? ??? was partially recorded due to... Would you like to keep and record next showing, keep and do not record next showing or delete and record next showing?

That would be good but again would only help if I watched the show before the next time it was on.


Guys, no one wants partials. The R15 isn't designed to do partials. It's doing them because of bugs.

We're not talking about rain fade or power outages and such. Those are just a what if in relations to the partials I'm running into. The partials I've run into in this experiment are totally due to the R15's lack of proper scheduling.


I want partials. I know your talking about partials due to conflicts but that's why I do like it. You can't adjust your SL's so that you know which one would record a partial or not. One of the issues now is that the Todo list doesn't do a good job of showing you that it's going to be a partial. I've had times that I've looked and saw 3 shows that where going to record and it took me a minute to figure out that one of the recording is going to be a partial. I really think it needs to be listed in another color so you can see it easily.

I don't think the R15 is doing this as a bug I think it's doing it as an enhancement. It does need work but I think it's a good thing. I have always wanted a DVR that did this and untill the R15 came out I had always wanted my UTV to do this to make it easier on me. That why I can prioritze my shows rather then having to cancel shows and setup manual records. If Lost goes over a min or two I still want to be able to record two programs after it's over. I like that I can prioritize and say that I would want to lose the last min or two of lost or lose a min or two of a program after lost. That's why I don't think it's a bug, I really think they designed it this way. With a little tweaking it would be alot better.

I really do see both sides of this there are alot of cases that you wouldn't want a partial but there are alot of times people would want this and alot of times people wouldn't. As we have shown here not ever one wants this but there are people that do.

[cabanaboy1977]

1) On the record defaults screen, allow the user to set a Yes/No default flag indicating whether they want partials to be recorded.

2) On each program/series record screen, allow the user to override the default to allow Yes/No on a partial record. (This way if I set the default to No partials, I could still tell the system to record a partial on a live event or other program I would want to be partially recorded.)

3) If a program is flagged as No partial, don't record a partial.

4) If a program is flagged as Yes partial, then record the partial; visibly note that the recording is a partial on the VOD list and in the history; offer the user the option to Record or Not Record the full program next time it airs (defaulting to Record); and record the full program the next time it airs (unless the user has explicitly selected Not Record).

That's not a bad idea. Only thing I would add would be the color (or something) in the Todo list so you know it will be a partial or not. Some thing does have to be done so that we can make everyone happy.

[Upstream]

That's not a bad idea. Only thing I would add would be the color (or something) in the Todo list so you know it will be a partial or not. Some thing does have to be done so that we can make everyone happy.


Good idea. I modified my previous post.

[Wolffpack]

Here are the results from Sunday, August 13th.

Of the 14 shows that Tivo had set to record The R15 recorded 10 properly. Three of the four shows missed where Wishlist/Autorecord shows the Tivo recorded but the R15 did not. The first AR the R15 currently has scheduled to record is late tomorrow (08/15). I'm not sure why these are not recording. Going into the SL entry for both ARs and pulling up EDIT the R15 shows most (not all) of the showing the Tivo has listed but isn't scheduling them. The R15 recorded partials of Enemy of the State and Wyatt Earp back on Thursday. Wyatt Earp is still being played daily and the R15 isn't trying to record any of them. I am going to remove the comparison of Wishlist/Autorecords from this test. The search logic between the two units do not return the same results and when they do, the R15 isn't recording them.

In other SP/SL changes I removed Last Comic Standing and added First Run episodes of Weeds on Showtime as the new season starts tonight. I have attached a new SP/SL listing.

The R15 recorded a partial (last half) of The Dead Zone which aired at 7:01. This was due to the fact that it recorded five repeat episodes of Weeds (which I added to the SL yesterday) from about 5:00pm until 7:30pm and an episode of Mind of Mencia at 7:00pm. The Weeds SL was set to First Run. Since Weeds has a higher priority than TDZ the R15 recorded those repeat episodes rather than the complete showing of TDZ. The problem that this has created is that the R15 does not have this episode "Revelations" set to record even through it is being repeated 08/15 and 08/20. It does have next weeks episode set to record on 08/20. If recording partials are part of the R15's design, I would expect a repeat of this show to be scheduled later in the week. I'll have to see if this episode is added to the TDL as the airing get closer.

A First Run episode of The 4400 also aired yesterday at 6:00pm. The R15 missed this completely as it was recording Deadwood at 6:00pm and the repeats of Weeds during the same time. The R15 did catch the fact that The 4400 episode was on again at 9:00pm and recorded that episode so I counted this as a proper record. This is highlights other examples of how the First Run/Repeat issue causes more problems than just filling the TDL and using recording space.

Finally, two episodes of The Twilight Zone were padded in the same fashion as last week. The SL is setup to pad 2 minutes before and after. The R15 started the first show 2 minutes early and ended the last show 2 minutes later but did not pad between the shows. I would agree with others that have stated this looks like a good design feature. Question is, this happens when the show titles are the same but what about when two different shows are airing back to back on the same channel?

[Bobman]

I know your into this testing and its really appreciated. I think until the R-15 SL dupe issue is fixed, your results are always going to be skewed towards the DirecTiVos. We all know the R-15 records dupes and that in some way they stop/conflict other shows from recording. Thats why some here go into the TDL daily and delete the dup recordings so it records the proper shows.

Unless the SL is fixed or you yourself go in and delete the dup shows daily, the results will always show the DirecTiVo recording better. Your other findings are interesting though.


Edited note: I would be curious to see the results if you first go in the TDL and delete all the dups from the R-15.

[mikewolf13]

I know your into this testing and its really appreciated. I think until the R-15 SL dupe issue is fixed, your results are always going to be skewed towards the DirecTiVos. We all know the R-15 records dupes and that in some way they stop/conflict other shows from recording. Thats why some here go into the TDL daily and delete the dup recordings so it records the proper shows.

Unless the SL is fixed or you yourself go in and delete the dup shows daily, the results will always show the DirecTiVo recording better. Your other findings are interesting though.


Edited note: I would be curious to see the results if you first go in the TDL and delete all the dups from the R-15.

Isn't the test to compare the 2 units and not how well Wolfpack can make the R15perform as well as the Tivo?

One of the huge selling points of a DVR is not having to babysit it. Lots of posts have minimized the issues of FR/RR ("i'd rather record too much than too little" or "so you just delete it ")

I will concede that if you barely record anything (few SL and no autorecords) and babysit the machine it can be as good as the Dtivo.

Yay!

Maybe a new marketing slogan is born.

9 months after release. and it still can't equal 5+ year old technology? I think these are very interesting test results

Upgrades are great, and in areas like showcases, VOD, Direct2Go etc. I would be much more patient in when these newer features are available and if upgrades are needed.

But recording scheduled shows, or autorecording??? Seems like they are trying to re-invent the wheel with a revolutionary "square" design, and that i should be patient until they get the kinks worked out.

[Wolffpack]

I know your into this testing and its really appreciated. I think until the R-15 SL dupe issue is fixed, your results are always going to be skewed towards the DirecTiVos. We all know the R-15 records dupes and that in some way they stop/conflict other shows from recording. Thats why some here go into the TDL daily and delete the dup recordings so it records the proper shows.

Unless the SL is fixed or you yourself go in and delete the dup shows daily, the results will always show the DirecTiVo recording better. Your other findings are interesting though.


Edited note: I would be curious to see the results if you first go in the TDL and delete all the dups from the R-15.
But how can you tell which shows to delete? Sure, when I see 5 episodes of Weeds listed I know at least 4 (possibly all 5) are repeats. But the R15 doesn't show original air date and sometimes doesn't even show a year. I can tell which ones should be deleted by looking them up on a Tivo, but from the info I see in the TDL I sure can't tell by episode name if a show is a repeat or first run.

Plus, not all problems are coming from First Run/Repeats. I haven't take a close look at yesterday's info yet but the R15 out and out missed one showing of Unwrapped (but recorded two others) and missed the Season Premiere of Weeds. It may be planning on recording a future airing of Weeds yet this week, I have to check, but that's something I've seen multiple times. I cannot see any scheduling conflicts yet some shows simply don't record.

I did remove the Wishlist/Autorecord items as the R15's logic there (finding and recording) seems riddled with problems. At this point I will probably run this through the end of the week to see if any patterns develop.

[MikeW]

Wolf...first...you ought to try to get heard at DirecTV. It would be nice if they had a CEO@???.com like Dish does, so that you don't get a canned response.

Second...:bowdown:amazing work. I wish I had the time to play with my dvrs like you do. I've banned the R15 from my life and swapped the R15 from my den with the Tivo that was in my son's bedroom.

Finally, for those of us with an HD-DVR, your reports do not encourage me to want to swap out my HR10-250 anytime soon.

It's too bad DirecTV couldn't realize that having the "Best In Class" equipment will save them money in the long run. They've decided to save money by developing in house and keeping the DVR fees to themselves. Buggy HD DVRS will cause more churn. I, for one, will not stand for missed programs on my main set. I have about 30 items in my season pass throughout the year and have had 0 issues with Tivo. If you've had this many issues in a week, something is seriously flawed.

[ad301]

Wolffpack, I'd been away since just before you started this thread, and I just caught up with it. Very interesting stuff. Unfortunately, it seems that not much has really improved since I ran this type of test back in November.

[Wolffpack]

Finally, for those of us with an HD-DVR, your reports do not encourage me to want to swap out my HR10-250 anytime soon.
Thanks Mike. There have been multiple reports that the HR20 and R15 are one somewhat a different platform. I'm really hoping that given that (if it's true) and with the delays we've seen in delivery of the HR20, it's a much more stable unit. Time will tell.

[Wolffpack]

I've found out why the Weeds season premiere didn't record yesterday. For some reason there were no episodes in the guide associated with that SL. Problem is I have no idea why there were no episodes.

The repeats recorded on the 13th were recorded off this same SL. Those shows were recorded on Showtime (537). If I pulled up the SL the R15 asked if I wanted to delete as there were no episodes. I went into Search and the search function found repeat episodes of this premiere on Showtime. I ended up deleting the Weeds SL and recreating it. That fixed the problem.

Wanna hear something real strange??? The old SL was at #5 priority and the new one was created at #2 priority. Not #1. Has anyone seen that? No conflicts when creating this SL but it was created at #2. Plus, get this, Weeds is #5, the next showing of the missed episode is Wed at 7:00pm-7:30pm. The R15 hasn't scheduled that airing to record. Instead it has the episode airing Friday 08/18 at 6:00pm scheduled to record. So I asked myself "Self, why would the R15 do that?". Looking at the TDL for Wed at 7:00pm I see two shows set to record. A repeat of Feasting on Asphalt which is #4 priority and an episode of South Park which is #21 on the SL list. So why is an episode of South Park (#21) set to record at 7:00pm when Weeds (#5) isn't? Digging a little deeper the particular episode of SP that is set to record is also airing at 9:00pm on Wed. So really FoA should be recorded at 7:00 as it's #4 priority. Weeds should be recorded at 7:00 at it's #5 and SP could then be recorded at 9:00 as nothing else is scheduled from 9:00 - 10:00.

There are times I am total confused by what process the R15 is using to schedule shows and resolve conflicts. Now, of course I do need to look at the TDL a bit later and it does seem quite fluid and ever changing. If I see any changes from what I've described above, I will advise.

[Bobman]

Isn't the test to compare the 2 units and not how well Wolfpack can make the R15perform as well as the Tivo?


Part of my point was, that it might be better waiting for the SL logic to be fixed before doing comparison testing. We already know the R-15 records duplicate shows and the SL logic is not quite right so is anyone really shocked with the results ?

Even though the findings are interesting, how I use my R-15 varies from how the testing was done as I "do", as well as many others, check the TDL and remove dups all the time. You can criticize and be sarcastic over this but if you want the R-15 to record almost as well as a DirecTiVo and not complain about missed recording and dups, spend 5 minutes every couple days doing this. So that is why I asked about this way for testing. My R-15 does not have the dups in the TDL that is causing some of the problems with the testing and I know my shows will record as I make sure they are there. To me 5-10 minutes a week doing this is well worth it.

[mikewolf13]

[QUOTE=Bobman;628318]Part of my point was, that it might be better waiting for the SL logic to be fixed before doing comparison testing. We already know the R-15 records duplicate shows and the SL logic is not quite right so is anyone really shocked with the results ?

QUOTE]

I really don't intend this to sound sarcastic, but i know it does. But i mean this sincerely.

How long are we suppossed to wait til the units are comparable?

I think it is great that you can monitor your unit and have it perform to your satisfaction with minimal effort.

I hope others are able to improve their experience, in much the same way in the mean time.

I think the results of this test are very important in realizing that after all the upgrades and workarounds, we still have a product that does not work correctly.

For some, that might be an obvious conclusion. Based on some posts,one might beleive the R15 is great and the upgrades have correcte most issues.

I like having actual data like the results of this test and not restated biased opinions (including my own).

[Wolffpack]

Part of my point was, that it might be better waiting for the SL logic to be fixed before doing comparison testing. We already know the R-15 records duplicate shows and the SL logic is not quite right so is anyone really shocked with the results ?

Even though the findings are interesting, how I use my R-15 varies from how the testing was done as I "do", as well as many others, check the TDL and remove dups all the time. You can criticize and be sarcastic over this but if you want the R-15 to record almost as well as a DirecTiVo and not complain about missed recording and dups, spend 5 minutes every couple days doing this. So that is why I asked about this way for testing. My R-15 does not have the dups in the TDL that is causing some of the problems with the testing and I know my shows will record as I make sure they are there. To me 5-10 minutes a week doing this is well worth it.
Ok, I'll ask again. How do you determine a showing in your R15's TDL is a repeat or not? I'm not talking about duplicates. I'm talking about 5 episodes of Weeds, or one episode of Good Eats. How, from the info on the TDL, do you determine this shouldn't be there yet this one should and decide to delete the ones that shouldn't? I have to refer to the info I can pull from my Tivo unit via TivoWebPlus, which hasn't even gotten into discussion with the R15.

[Wolffpack]

[QUOTE=Bobman;628318]Part of my point was, that it might be better waiting for the SL logic to be fixed before doing comparison testing. We already know the R-15 records duplicate shows and the SL logic is not quite right so is anyone really shocked with the results ?

QUOTE]

I really don't intend this to sound sarcastic, but i know it does. But i mean this sincerely.

How long are we suppossed to wait til the units are comparable?

I think it is great that you can monitor your unit and have it perform to your satisfaction with minimal effort.

I hope others are able to improve their experience, in much the same way in the mean time.

I think the results of this test are very important in realizing that after all the upgrades and workarounds, we still have a product that does not work correctly.

For some, that might be an obvious conclusion. Based on some posts,one might beleive the R15 is great and the upgrades have correcte most issues.

I like having actual data like the results of this test and not restated biased opinions (including my own).

IMO this test is showing that the biggest problems with the R15 are the SL First Run/Repeat problems and the faulty scheduling logic. It is also highlighting the problems associated with limits on the TDL as well as basic DVR functions. If, after 9 months in customers hands a DVR can still not properly record the programs it's instructed to record without manual intervention and loss of recordings......{please everyone reply and fill in this blank with your opinion}.

[Bobman]

Again, we already know the R-15 records repeats and the SL logic is still being tweaked. The testing is really showing nothing that we already didn't know. I doubt anyone that has been here for more than a couple weeks is surprised in any way over these results ?

So the testing seems pointless to me as we already know it records dups and obviously to anyone who thinks about it, the dupes in some way at some time have to interfere with other shows being recorded.

If simply spending 5 minutes a week manually removing dupes, they are not nearly as hard to figure out as your trying to make it sound, and double checking you top priority SL's, can help I dont see the reason why not.

[ISWIZ]

Great job Wolff, though it only confirms what reading most of the treads have shown all along. The 2 other things that would help your "research" would be A DECENT HISTORY (cancelled- yeah, that tells us a lot) and a MARK AND DELETE in the TDL screen (like in SEARCH) so that those "weed" dups would be easy to remove. That areas is severely lacking in user accessibility.

[Bobman]

{please everyone reply and fill in this blank with your opinion}.[/B]


My reply is: ((Repeat)) If simply spending 5 minutes a week manually removing dupes, they are not nearly as hard to figure out as your trying to make it sound, and double checking you top priority SL's, can help I don't see the reason why not.

Should it be necessary, of course not but it is how it is. You can only do a couple things. Stop using the R-15 until its fixed OR keep using it and keep complaining about it recording dupes and possibly missing some recordings as you cant be bothered spending a few minutes weekly checking the TDL OR you can take control for the time being, spend a couple minutes a week making sure it does what it should.

[walters]

I for one am glad that he chose to keep complaing about it, since the developers supposedly read this forum. Maybe they'll read this thread and learn something. If we just quietly keep checking our todo lists and masking the problems they might never get fixed.

[Bobman]

I for one am glad that he chose .

What a surprise !;)

[cabanaboy1977]

Ok, I'll ask again. How do you determine a showing in your R15's TDL is a repeat or not? I'm not talking about duplicates. I'm talking about 5 episodes of Weeds, or one episode of Good Eats. How, from the info on the TDL, do you determine this shouldn't be there yet this one should and decide to delete the ones that shouldn't? I have to refer to the info I can pull from my Tivo unit via TivoWebPlus, which hasn't even gotten into discussion with the R15.

That's why they need to put the info on the screen when you highlight the programs in the TODO list. They need to move the description of the todo list to the top left next to the D* logo and put the program description where the todo description is. That way you don't have to select the show to know which episode it is (and adding the episodes names to the descriptions would help too).

[MikeW]

Again, we already know the R-15 records repeats and the SL logic is still being tweaked. The testing is really showing nothing that we already didn't know. I doubt anyone that has been here for more than a couple weeks is surprised in any way over these results ?

So the testing seems pointless to me as we already know it records dups and obviously to anyone who thinks about it, the dupes in some way at some time have to interfere with other shows being recorded.

If simply spending 5 minutes a week manually removing dupes, they are not nearly as hard to figure out as your trying to make it sound, and double checking you top priority SL's, can help I dont see the reason why not.

This demonstrates, with specifics, what is going wrong with the R15. Many people post giving vague rants about the product...this thread gets to the point.

[Wolffpack]

Again, we already know the R-15 records repeats and the SL logic is still being tweaked. The testing is really showing nothing that we already didn't know. I doubt anyone that has been here for more than a couple weeks is surprised in any way over these results ?

So the testing seems pointless to me as we already know it records dups and obviously to anyone who thinks about it, the dupes in some way at some time have to interfere with other shows being recorded.

If simply spending 5 minutes a week manually removing dupes, they are not nearly as hard to figure out as your trying to make it sound, and double checking you top priority SL's, can help I dont see the reason why not.
Were you aware that the R15, if presented with three shows on at the same time will record Pri #4 and Pri #21 shows over a Pri #5 show and schedule that Pri #5 show for later in the week? I wasn't aware of that.

Were you aware that the R15 may loose links between a SL and the episodes that SL is suppose to record and that in that event you need to delete and recreate that SL for it to record properly? I wasn't aware of that.

Were you aware that the R15 will simply miss recording a show for no apparent reason even when it has nothing else scheduled to record during that time period? I wasn't aware of that.

Were you aware that the R15 is constantly changing the TDL even up until 30 minutes before a show is set to air? I wasn't aware of that. Kida makes the TDL maintenance chore a little harder to accomplish when it keeps changing.

I was well aware of the FR/Repeat problem but never thought about how it effects the scheduling and recording of lower priority shows before spending this time comparing the two units. If you see no value in this thread that's your opinion and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm not going through this process for anyone other than myself. As time permits I report the results here just in case others are interested. If you're content with baby sitting your R15 to make sure it "behaves" that's your choice. I expect my DVR to behave on it's own. When I set a SL to record FRs of Rescue Me, I expect a show to be sitting in MYVOD Tuesday night. I don't expect it to wait a couple of days and record the Friday airing of the show that originally aired on Tuesday. When Battlestar Galactica starts up this October I expect to find each new episode ready for viewing Friday night (if it's still going to be aired on Fridays). I don't expect to have to wait until sometime during the next week to see this show. But that's just me expectations of what a DVR should do for me.

[Upstream]

Bobman -- I am reasonably happy with my R15. Although it is not perfect, it is better than no DVR, and it has several features I like which the DirecTivo does not have.

But I appreciate Wolffpack's testing. What you are suggesting is that Wolffpack modify his test to show how to make the R15 as accurate as Tivo in series and auto records.

But from my perspective, the test isn't really a comparision between the R15 and Tivo. Although Wolffpack is using Tivo as a control, his test is providing data about recording problems which the R15 encounters.

I find it useful to know what type of problems the R15 encounters so I can avoid them (which, as you suggest, can be accomplished by periodic monitoring of the ToDo list). I also hope that the DTV development team sees the problems on the R15 so they can fix them.

[cabanaboy1977]

Were you aware that the R15, if presented with three shows on at the same time will record Pri #4 and Pri #21 shows over a Pri #5 show and schedule that Pri #5 show for later in the week? I wasn't aware of that.

Did you have this happen more than once or was it just that one time?


Were you aware that the R15 may loose links between a SL and the episodes that SL is suppose to record and that in that event you need to delete and recreate that SL for it to record properly? I wasn't aware of that.


I not sure if this this the same thing but I had Surface set to this week with a SL's that was already there on of the episodes that it recorded isn't sitting in the folder with the others.

BTW Thanks doing the side by side with the R15 and Tivo. Wish we could have a 3 way side by side with the UTV too.

[Wolffpack]

Did you have this happen more than once or was it just that one time?
That's the only time I've seen a lower priority show set to record over a higher pri show. That scenario is set for tonight at 7:00 but as of now it's still set to record that way.

There have been two other instances in which the R15 didn't record the first airing of an episode but instead scheduled it to record at a later date.

I not sure if this this the same thing but I had Surface set to this week with a SL's that was already there on of the episodes that it recorded isn't sitting in the folder with the others.
I've seen this twice. I've got it right now with Unwrapped. Two shows are listed in MYVOD but not in folders. I've never seen this before.

[captain kirk]

Thanks for the side by side testing. I was going to suggest that you score it like a boxing match with one point per correct recording or counting each day as a "round" but after just a few days it's pretty clear who's saying "No mas, no mas".

This kind of engineering trained testing is exactly what is needed and missing on the R15. It's really not all that hard to create tests that will find the recording flaws if they tried.

For those of us who like DirectTV's service (NFL Ticket, yeah) I hope that they make a commitment to better quality in their boxes.

[Bobman]

If you're content with baby sitting your R15 to make sure it "behaves" that's your choice. I expect my DVR to behave on it's own.


Let me get this straight. :confused: To you instead of using a "temporary workaround" until the SL logic is fixed and something that takes a measly 5 minutes a week to check you would rather miss recordings on purpose when there is a known workaround so you can complain about the R-15's SL logic that we all already know needs improvement ????

It took me all of 30 seconds to look at todays 2-3 pages of items in the TDL. I guess that is a lot to ask.:eek2:

[mikewolf13]

Let me get this straight. :confused: To you instead of using a "temporary workaround" until the SL logic is fixed and something that takes a measly 5 minutes a week to check you would rather miss recordings on purpose when there is a known workaround so you can complain about the R-15's SL logic that we all already know needs improvement ????

It took me all of 30 seconds to look at todays 2-3 pages of items in the TDL. I guess that is a lot to ask.:eek2:

he's not missing anything....his R10 is correctly recording everything:D, but the point of the test was to compare

isn't that better than generic, this thing isn't as good as a tivo posts?

I could spend 2 minutes a day setting up my manual records for that day...no big deal.


Hopefully the HR20 will work, if they all perform as well as Earl's (and don't you wish your R15 was as good as Earl's) then I would consider getting them to replace my Tivo's (when they die) even on my SD sets...cause I do not believe the R15 will ever work as it is suppossed to.

[Wolffpack]

Let me get this straight. :confused: To you instead of using a "temporary workaround" until the SL logic is fixed and something that takes a measly 5 minutes a week to check you would rather miss recordings on purpose when there is a known workaround so you can complain about the R-15's SL logic that we all already know needs improvement ????

It took me all of 30 seconds to look at todays 2-3 pages of items in the TDL. I guess that is a lot to ask.:eek2:
My R15 is in my office and is just a backup DVR. Anything I want to make sure I see I have set on one of my Tivos.

But as I've seen from this testing, FR/Repeats aren't the only problem. I wouldn't use an R15 as my primary unit because it doesn't record every show. When you look through your 2-3 pages of TDL items how can you tell if something isn't there? You say you have 30 SLs. Do you have their schedules committed to memory? I'm pulling the comparison TDL from a Tivo which I'm confident doesn't miss shows and make sure each of those items are on the R15. Not all are. So you do realize that you are most likely missing shows, correct?

[qwerty]

I not sure if this this the same thing but I had Surface set to this week with a SL's that was already there on of the episodes that it recorded isn't sitting in the folder with the others.

:eek2: That's one hell of a sentance, Cabanaboy!

[Wolffpack]

Here are the results from Monday, August 14th.

Sorry about the reporting delays, it’s been a little busy here.

Of the 17 shows that Tivo had set to record The R15 recorded 16 properly. The only missed show was the season premier of Weeds with I had previously discussed. There was an open tuner at that time. The R15 also did not record the episode which aired on Wednesday but it is scheduled to record the episode airing Friday at 6:00pm.

The R15 is consistently recording the back to back Twilight Zone shows as 34 minutes for the first show and 30 minutes for the second.

The R15 also did pickup an additional episode of Paula’s Home Cooking that was missed when the unit froze up Friday night/Saturday morning.

[Wolffpack]

Here are the results from Tuesday, August 15th.

Of the 11 shows that Tivo had set to record The R15 recorded 10 properly. There were no missed shows (hurray) but the R15 started The Daily Show 4 minutes late. Rescue Me ran from 7:00 until 8:04 and the R15 had Good Eats and The Daily Show set to record at 8:00. Result was the first 4 minutes of TDS were missed.

The thing is TDS repeats the same episode every night at 8:00 and at 10:00. Tivo scheduled the 10:00 showing to record as the R15 should have done.

Only other item was the R15 recorded a repeat showing of Dirty Jobs at 5:00pm.

[Wolffpack]

Here are the results from Wednesday, August 16th.

Of the 10 shows that Tivo had set to record the R15 recorded 9 properly. For some reason the R15 missed recording Good Eats at 4:00pm. Nothing else was recording at that time. No apparent reason for not recording this show. Also, on any of these non-recorded shows I have checked History but as expected saw no mention of the shows missed.

The R15 also did record the First Run episode of Feasting on Asphalt that it missed Saturday night. As I mentioned back then this airing was on the TDL for Wednesday yet could have been recorded Saturday night.

I just cannot see the logic behind the R15 scheduling a First Run episode to record later in the week when the original airing could be recorded.

[ad301]

Good job, Wolffpack.

[wohlfie]

Sounds like our blue-eyed wonders are fairing a little better than expected....

You're on 10D3 right?

[Wolffpack]

Yes, I am on 10D3.

And Yes, I'm pretty pleased with the R15's performance the past few days. The FR/Repeat issue REALLY needs fixing and as it sounds that the HR20 has that nailed down it would be nice to see that code brought over to the R15.

The real surprise that concerns me is this habit the R15 has of missing the original airing of a First Run episode and scheduling of an airing later in the week. I want to see Rescue Me Tuesday night. I want to see Feasting on Asphalt Saturday night. I just do not see any benefit in not recording the original airing in favor of one a day or two later.

For the rest of today everything is in the TDL as expected except the 8:00pm showing of The Daily Show. And that's due to a repeat of CSI from 2005 that the R15 seems to think it must record. Tomorrow looks perfect from the TDL right now. Interested to see if that holds up.

With the CSI repeat tonight being set to record I have another concern. Some of you may recall I happened to get a beta version (10C0) back in May while some First Run programs were still airing. I ran some tests on that version as It appeared the FR/Repeat issue was fixed in that version which was never released. Eventually in July 10C8 was released which I assumed would contain the same logic. CSI was one of the shows that bypassed repeats during my tests back then. Now the R15 has scheduled a repeat of CSI to record. What's up with that? Has something changed since May that causes the R15 to record repeats of CSI when it didn't then?

Here's a link to the 10C0 test I performed if anyone is interested. (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=57568)

[xtoyz]

If, after 9 months in customers hands a DVR can still not properly record the programs it's instructed to record without manual intervention and loss of recordings......{please everyone reply and fill in this blank with your opinion}. than it's time to pull it from the market and apologize to Tivo.

[Wolffpack]

Good answer xtoyz. It'll never happen, but good answer. :)

[Clint Lamor]

I wonder if it's using the logic that it has for conflicts to record the next airing. When you set it up you didn't choose this option did you?

Also who is to say thats it's only D* that would need to say they are sorry from what I heard the old top guy at Tivo as his attitude are a major reason why Tivo didn't have contracts with other providers.

[cabanaboy1977]

That's the only time I've seen a lower priority show set to record over a higher pri show. That scenario is set for tonight at 7:00 but as of now it's still set to record that way.

There have been two other instances in which the R15 didn't record the first airing of an episode but instead scheduled it to record at a later date.

So I'm thinking this must be there way of helping you get the most possible shows. This would suck if you really wanted to watch it that night or if there was a misslabeling of shows. Sounds like another thing they need to color code in the todo list so you know what it's doing.


I've seen this twice. I've got it right now with Unwrapped. Two shows are listed in MYVOD but not in folders. I've never seen this before.

Yeah it's the first time I've seen it too. It was odd because it had five of them in the group (all recorded that day) and the last one was above the folder.

:eek2: That's one hell of a sentance, Cabanaboy!

I guess I wasn't awake yet :lol:

[Wolffpack]

I wonder if it's using the logic that it has for conflicts to record the next airing. When you set it up you didn't choose this option did you?
When I originally setup the SLs it was after a clean wipe and format of the HD. Then I started at the end of the SL list to add the shows and let it add the shows to the top of the SL so there was minimal re-prioritizing needed after. It took a little longer for some shows to sow up in the guide so 2-3 of then were added later and then slid down the list.

I'm guessing those new options when setting up SLs are only used for the original insert into the SLs (top or bottom) and doesn't wrap any special logic around the actual SL entry. Even if you setup a new SL as Record Non-Conflic, once you move that to #1 it should have #1 priority over all of your SLs.

[Wolffpack]

Here are the results from Thursday, August 17th.

Of the 9 shows that Tivo had set to record the R15 recorded 8 properly. The R15 missed The Daily Show at 8:00pm as it was recording Good Eats (correctly) and CSI (which was a repeat and shouldn't have been recorded). This concerns me as last May under version 10C0 I tested the FR/Rep function for CSI and it properly recorded FRs and bypassed Reps. Not sure why 10D3 doesn't operate the same.

Plus, The Daily Show plays twice an evening so if the R15 missed the 8:00 show why not record the 10:00 airing?

As far as today goes....it looks perfect.

[Wolffpack]

Here are the results from Friday, August 18th.

Of the 9 shows that Tivo had set to record the R15 recorded all 9 properly. Perfect score.

Only two extra shows recorded. Weeds, which I've mentioned above was finally recorded by the R15 and it also recorded an extra episode of South Park that the Tivo had already recorded before I started this test. Due to the 28 day rule Tivo didn't record it again.

So, 100% for the R15!!!!!

[Bobman]

This is with the new update that most of us dont have yet ? I forgot the number.

[Wolffpack]

Correct. 10D3.

[Wolffpack]

Well that was fun.

End of this round on testing. From Aug 10th through Aug 18th the R15 properly recorded 81.55% of the shows my Tivo recorded given the same SPs/SLs and priorities. 84 out of 104 shows.

As expected the First Run/Repeat logic needs work. Shows that recorded properly in my tests back in May with 10C0 are not recording properly now. During this period there were 12 repeat episodes.

There were partials recorded when the R15 had more than two shows scheduled for the same period. Could be a feature or a bug. For those partials the remaining portion of the show was never recorded, so I’d guess it’s a bug.

When recording first runs the R15 wouldn’t always schedule the first airing of a show even though it had tuners available. Instead it would record a re-airing of that show later in the week.

The R15 froze up once during this test which caused two of the partials and 4 missed recordings. The R15 made up one of the missed recordings but did not try to rerecord the partials.

I eventually deleted the portion of the test that was testing Wishlists vs Autorecords as the Autorecord and Search function on the R15 needs quite a bit of work.

I did not have any lockups due to SL maintenance or searches.

IMO the R15 is running better now then it was a month or two ago but is till not reliable enough for me to make this a primary DVR in my house. More details are scattered above in my posts. Thanks to everyone for the input and comments.

[tfederov]

Good stuff, Wolffpack. I'd be curious to see what a side-by-side HR10-250/HR20 would be like.

[Wolffpack]

Good stuff, Wolffpack. I'd be curious to see what a side-by-side HR10-250/HR20 would be like.
Maybe Earl can get me on some "special" list. :lol:

[Malibu13]

Nice Job Wolff;) Very impressive testing. :) and thanks for taking the time.

[cabanaboy1977]

There were partials recorded when the R15 had more than two shows scheduled for the same period. Could be a feature or a bug. For those partials the remaining portion of the show was never recorded, so I’d guess it’s a bug.


I think it's a feature with a bug. It's a feature that gets you a partial but a bug that doesn't go out and rerecord the next showing.

Good job Wolffpack. It was nice to see a side by side.

[Wolffpack]

I think it's a feature with a bug. It's a feature that gets you a partial but a bug that doesn't go out and rerecord the next showing.

Good job Wolffpack. It was nice to see a side by side.
If that is the case that feature has a couple of bugs as it also doesn't always do partials. It would be nice to know what to expect, when.

[cabanaboy1977]

It would be nice to know what to expect, when.

Very true.