Dual Buffers [Archive] - Page 12

Dr. Booda

01-29-08, 11:43 AM

Well you can pause live TV... as that is a feature of their box.
What if it wasn't there? Would you still not be able to record.

Is pausing LIVE TV a critical core function of a DVR?

I would still say that isn't a critical core function... As the DVR would still record my shows and allow me to watch them when I wanted to.

I get that the DVR+ developers decided that users prefer to record programs instead of watching live TV via DLB or time shifting, however why do a majority of other DVR manufacturers have a contrarian viewpoint?

The old time DirecTV subscribers all had plain receivers and used to watch TV live or record programs via VCR’s. In my mind, things haven’t changed; the DVR is just an evolution in recording ability beyond the VCR. Many people use it the same way as their old VCR.

When the HR10 (my first DVR) introduced DLB to me, I was ecstatic that not only did the unit evolve the VCR to a new recording device, but DLB evolved live TV viewing as well. It was the best of both worlds, which has now been IMO undone. Hopefully, that will be corrected someday.

Earl Bonovich

01-29-08, 11:56 AM

I get that the DVR+ developers decided that users prefer to record programs instead of watching live TV via DLB or time shifting, however why do a majority of other DVR manufacturers have a contrarian viewpoint?

It is not DVR+ developers who make that decision... it is those responsible for the features ect of the system.....

As for why the others have it....

Well a lot of them where out to clone the TiVo... (that is one reason)

Another is that there is a customer base that wants to watch two live TV events.

At the end of the day.. it is a feature... that some of you want.
Still doesn't make it a core feature of a "DVR." IMHO

Dr. Booda

01-29-08, 12:38 PM

It is not DVR+ developers who make that decision... it is those responsible for the features ect of the system.....

As for why the others have it....

Well a lot of them where out to clone the TiVo... (that is one reason)

Another is that there is a customer base that wants to watch two live TV events.

At the end of the day.. it is a feature... that some of you want.
Still doesn't make it a core feature of a "DVR." IMHO

So other manufacturers chose to clone TiVo and DirecTV didn't? That confuses me. Cloning something usually indicates that it is something of value, or else it wouldn’t be copied. The product baseline then evolves as new features are added to what is considered the unit that everyone wants. To scrap the baseline and move off in an independent direction means that one either hates the baseline for some reason, or thinks that they can corner the market with other features.

In my case, signing up for DirecTV service had nothing to do with the features of their receiver (or if I was to join today the current features of their DVR), it was due to their programming. I wouldn’t be attracted to the company because their DVR can play music files off of my computer or have interactive gaming, however I can understand if others would. I use my PS3 for those capabilities; I use the DVR+ to record and watch TV.

ToddinVA

01-29-08, 12:39 PM

But they went away with the Series II (at least off the remote)

Obviously because it made no sense for DVR that's supposed to run 24/7.

Tom Robertson

01-29-08, 12:51 PM

It seems to me there are several things to consider in "what are the core features of a DVR?":

1) Historical perspective of what the DVR replaced
2) How the DVR was marketed
3) How users (who pay for the devices one way or another) actually use the device. :)

The DVR, in my mind replaced the VCR. Mostly a recording and playback device, tho not solely such. How many of us used the VCR as a live TV cable convertor on an older TV that didn't support cable channels? (I did!) :)

How were Replay, Tivo, UltimateTV originally marketed? My vague recollections were that it heavily included the ability to pause live TV while you answered the phone, did the paperwork in the porcelain library, yelled at the kids to be quiet, etc. If so, that becomes part of the definition of DVR.

Now that I've embraced the DVR technology, I've also replaced almost every non-DVR receiver in my home. I want the ability to pause and rewind live TV everywhere in my receivers. Of course, I record all the things "I watch", yet the TV is nearly always on if we're awake, playing news, sports, cartoons if the grandkids are here. Especially with the news and sports, when the background catches my attention about something I am interested in, I back it up and listen from the beginning.

If the DVR did not let me back up, I'd have to consider some hodge-podge to receive satellite signals and buffer live TV. Yet, I would still need a DVRs to merely do record and playback.

So in a Digital Video Receiver/Recorder, live TV is a core feature as is pause and trickplay of live TV. That was one of the original selling features and still just as valid today.

Now, about Dual Live buffering. Core feature? Maybe. It is nearly standard, as it exists on most (nearly all?) dual tuner DVRs today. Are there any single tuner DVRs now? Has also dual tuners become a standard core feature?

So perhaps if DLB is not yet standard as a core feature, it seems that competitive pressure will make it such soon.

How much longer will the current non-DVR receiver last? As a sold item, probably not a whole lot longer. Yes, they will exist in the field for another 15 years, yet all new ones will very likely have the ability to buffer live TV and trickplay for the length of time the memory allows.

(How many of us have wanted to jumpback in a movie theatre? I did, especially right after I got used to DVRs.) :)

Cheers,
Tom

JBernardK

01-29-08, 12:53 PM

At the end of the day.. it is a feature... that some of you want.
Still doesn't make it a core feature of a "DVR." IMHO

This is just a silly arguement. You seem to have an excuse for any feature that the Directv lacks. Maybe it is not a "core feature" for you, but the overhwhelming majority of users find it be a useful feature. But Directv advertises:

"Media Share capable: Listen to music and view photos stored on your Intel® Viiv™ processor technology-based PC.

Take advantage of DIRECTV interactive features like DIRECTV Active™. Get weather information, lottery results and horoscopes onscreen. "

So you can get your horoscope but not switch tuners?

DLB is a feature that many users want. What difference does it make if it is not a "core feature" of a DVR?

rydertaylor

01-29-08, 01:22 PM

The reason the DLB feature is so important to directv DVR owners. They want Directv to be the best. If you ask anyone that own a tivo. DLB fearture makes your television go to the next level. That why I'm copying/paste my letter and mailing it today.Just the passion in this thread should tell you how important this feature is DBSTalking fans.

ATARI

01-29-08, 01:28 PM

From the dual tuner section of the DVR topic in WikiPedia:

"The main use for this feature is the capability to record a live program while watching another live program simultaneously or to record two programs at the same time while watching a previously recorded one."

So, score 1 for Earl.

But, that doesn't change that fact that I and many others would still like this feature.

Providing air conditioning is not the core function of an automobile, but it sure is nice to have.

ToddinVA

01-29-08, 01:50 PM

James Long

01-29-08, 02:00 PM

From the dual tuner section of the DVR topic in WikiPedia:

"The main use for this feature is the capability to record a live program while watching another live program simultaneously or to record two programs at the same time while watching a previously recorded one."Hang on a minute ...
Fixed:
"The main use for this feature is the capability to pause two live programs at the same time. One can also record a live program while watching another live program simultaneously or to record two programs at the same time while watching previously recorded programming."

Wikipedia is so easy to edit. :D
(Just kidding, no edit done.)

Que

01-29-08, 02:02 PM

A must have! 2797 77.59%
Don't really care about it. 177 4.91%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 631 17.50%
Voters: 3605.

Replies 2,760
Views 141,521

Earl Bonovich

01-29-08, 02:13 PM

Obviously because it made no sense for DVR that's supposed to run 24/7.

And again... the point that just because it is there on other systems... doesn't necessarily mean it should be on EVERY system.

Tom Robertson

01-29-08, 02:19 PM

Indeed, I'd like to have a power button that I know cleanly shutdown the system. I don't like pulling the plug on an active hard drive.

But wait, this is about DLBs. Yes, they are needed too. :)

Cheers,
Tom

Earl Bonovich

01-29-08, 02:19 PM

This is just a silly arguement. You seem to have an excuse for any feature that the Directv lacks. Maybe it is not a "core feature" for you, but the overhwhelming majority of users find it be a useful feature. But Directv advertises:

"Media Share capable: Listen to music and view photos stored on your Intel® Viiv™ processor technology-based PC.

Take advantage of DIRECTV interactive features like DIRECTV Active™. Get weather information, lottery results and horoscopes onscreen. "

So you can get your horoscope but not switch tuners?

DLB is a feature that many users want. What difference does it make if it is not a "core feature" of a DVR?

Why is it a silly argument?

There is no excuse there... plain and simple... can't make it much clearer.
DirecTV made the choice NOT to have DLB on THEIR platform.....

We can argue all day on what is a core feature to a DVR...

It doesn't make a difference... but the argument on why some find it so important and others don't.

Some people have tried to make the point that it is UTMOST CRITICAL that their DVR has DLB... which would mean that it is a core function to them.

My argument, and IMHO... that is not a core function...

AKA... part of a discussion about the importance of said feature.

ANY AND ALL features on a unit, are part of their unit... and it makes that unit.... what it is... Media Share, DoD, DLB, Skip, Slip, Series Link, AutoRecord, ect.... they are all features... which a consumer needs to evaluate in their purchase.

It makes no difference if it is a core feature or not.....
Some customers want DLB... but it is not there...

You all want the reason on why it is not there... but yet, when ideas are kicked around on why it is not there.... it is defending DirecTV...

If you don't want to discuss the lack of DLB... then what do you want to do..... It is a two part discussion... if you want to discuss why it should be there... you have to be willing to discuss why it isn't...

Earl Bonovich

01-29-08, 02:21 PM

Good points. Who on earth has a Viiv PC? Almost no one. lol

As for the Active channel, does anyone actually use that? It's so slow that it's pretty much useless. What if the time and effort that went into that went into DLB first? We'd have had it a year ago...

As again for the ViiV... from day one... 3rd party "Free" media servers worked with the feature, in fact... some of them worked significantly better then the official "ViiV"

The ViiV was a COMMERCIALLY available/supported media server...
That had another larger company promoting it.

There are people that daily go into Active.

Active is just an interactive JAVA ish page that comes in over the SAT... same active page pretty much on all interactive enabled systems...

So not much work went into Active page, that was specific to any of the DVRs...

MikeR7

01-29-08, 02:21 PM

How is one button not user friendly?

Oh, on second read realized you meant the process of getting both tuners on the right channels. But still... not sure how that process becomes easier: type in the channel, hit "2nd tuner button," type in channel. All set.

That's not how I was taught here. :lol:

Earl Bonovich

01-29-08, 02:27 PM

So other manufacturers chose to clone TiVo and DirecTV didn't? That confuses me. Cloning something usually indicates that it is something of value, or else it wouldn’t be copied. The product baseline then evolves as new features are added to what is considered the unit that everyone wants. To scrap the baseline and move off in an independent direction means that one either hates the baseline for some reason, or thinks that they can corner the market with other features.

DirecTV didn't find value in CLOANING TiVo... and I think that is the #1 mistake users made in comming over to the DVR+ platform... they all assumed it would do everything TiVo did... and then more...

That isn't the case, that was never going to be the case.

------

I really wish it was easy to interview the ENTIRE DVR user base... to find out how many people: 1) Know about the concept of DLB... 2) Actually use it.

We are all in a very different world here....
We know about the feature.... We know how we would use it in our personal usage habits...

I know when people ask me about upgrading their TiVo... I mention DLB... more often or not... I get a puzzled look on their face... they didn't even know it was there, or they didn't use it... (a few have missed it)

boltjames

01-29-08, 02:37 PM

The problem is that DLB did become a feature, and obviously from this thread one that is missed by many people.

Its understood that some users took a liking to this accidental "feature". I have a similar story.

Back in the early 90's, I used to hang my clothes on hangars in the rear window of a 1988 Acura Legend. Would crack the window, put the hangar in there, and close the window. The pressure of the closed window and the window seal on the hangar kept it securely in place. It was awesome. My whole family used this feature.

By the time I was ready for my next car, a 1995 Acura Legend, they decided that too many kids were getting their heads caught in the rear windows and they put in this sensor that sensed when something was stuck between the glass and the window seal. Now when we put our hangars in there, the window would keep popping open.

We mourned the loss of the WHP (Window Hangar Pinch) for years, but learned to understand that Acura didn't do anything wrong; they weren't expected to maintain a "feature" they never intended.

If any of you DLB activists would like to get involved with Acura and their "bring back WHP" cause, PM me and I'll set you up with the right people. I don't drive Acura any more, nor do I hang my clothes in the car, but I feel them on this issue.

BJ

boltjames

01-29-08, 02:39 PM

When I got my HR10-250 from E-Bay last summer to find out what all the fuss was about, I searched the manual for at least 20 minutes trying to find out how to use the DLB feature. Guess what, it is not in the manual. :lol:

I discovered DLB by accident; hit the 'down' key on my Sony T-60 and saw that it jumped to another show with a built-up recording memory.

It came in handy, and it wouldn't be the end of the world if it returned, but there are so many other awesome features in the HR20 that this pales in comparison.

BJ

ToddinVA

01-29-08, 02:53 PM

Its understood that some users took a liking to this accidental "feature". I have a similar story.

Back in the early 90's, I used to hang my clothes on hangars in the rear window of a 1988 Acura Legend. Would crack the window, put the hangar in there, and close the window. The pressure of the closed window and the window seal on the hangar kept it securely in place. It was awesome. My whole family used this feature.

By the time I was ready for my next car, a 1995 Acura Legend, they decided that too many kids were getting their heads caught in the rear windows and they put in this sensor that sensed when something was stuck between the glass and the window seal. Now when we put our hangars in there, the window would keep popping open.

We mourned the loss of the WHP (Window Hangar Pinch) for years, but learned to understand that Acura didn't do anything wrong; they weren't expected to maintain a "feature" they never intended.

If any of you DLB activists would like to get involved with Acura and their "bring back WHP" cause, PM me and I'll set you up with the right people. I don't drive Acura any more, nor do I hang my clothes in the car, but I feel them on this issue.

BJ
But DLB hasn't killed or injured any children! You kill me Bolt, you really do... :lol:

BTW, didn't your Acura have a coat hook in it?? A little feature that most people probably don't even use, but it's found in most cars.

Lord Vader

01-29-08, 02:55 PM

Well you can pause live TV... as that is a feature of their box.
What if it wasn't there? Would you still not be able to record.

Is pausing LIVE TV a critical core function of a DVR?

I would still say that isn't a critical core function... As the DVR would still record my shows and allow me to watch them when I wanted to.

There are not many function of a DVR, that I would put in the category of "core/critical" function.... every other feature on top of that is nice, and does add to the funciton of that particular DVR.

And does make THAT particular DVR, what it is... and provide comparison points to those making choices based on what the units can do.

----

As for the power button.....
It is there on just about every other piece of equipment, so why not on the TiVo?

I mean that is the argument that is used often for DLB... it is there on every other DVR... so why not on the DVR+ platform?

My DirecTIVOs have power buttons. Regarding pausing live TV, it IS heavily advertised as a major feature of DVRs; therefore, it can logically be called a "core feature."

afrosales

01-29-08, 03:54 PM

I am always curious for people that are this passionate about DLB. What do you watch live so often on tv that you need DLB? I am not attacking you, just trying to understand the reasons people want it so bad... I can't stand watching anything live anymore unless it a really big sports program, like the suprebowl....

It's funny, I never really thought about "how" I watch TV, except for the last few days. Like someone else said, the bottom line is that I used the DLB function every day. So did my wife. At some point, you're tired of what's saved, or there are repeats that got recorded, so you watch live. When the commercial comes you pause and flip around and see what's out there. The DLB made that effortless and mindless. Having to use a workaround and "set it up" removes the mindless aspect and makes TV watching less enjoyable.

The whole point might be moot, however, since I am about to lose all HD on my HR10. As much as DTV has disappointed me lately, they have a long way to go to match the pain caused by teh cable companies.

Monduj1

01-29-08, 04:00 PM

Earl Bonovich

01-29-08, 04:10 PM

So has DirecTV officially responded to why DBL is not offered?

No, and they probably never will issue a press release on why they decided not include DLB as a feature in their first DVR+ system 27 months ago...

As official as it is going to get... DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in THEIR DVR platform.

Tom Robertson

01-29-08, 04:50 PM

I believe the debate over whether DBL is a "core" feature or not is moot. It is a feature, sorely missing from DirecTV units.

I haven't read through all 111 pages of this thread, but was hoping some one could tell me whether DirecTV has provided an official response to why DBL is not offered. I mean surely someone from DirecTV keeps an eye on these types of forums, not to mention their own Technical Help Forum, and is aware of the fervent outcry for DBL, right? I mean we're talking about a topic that continues to be actively and passionately discussed two years later. Anything?

I am still using two DirecTivo units, non-HD. I would like to make the upgrade to HD, but have held off due 100% to the lack of DBL on DirecTV's offerings. In fact, I continue to suffer through the frequent reboots on my Philip's receiver (due to DirecTV software not playing nice with Tivo) simply because the R15 doesn't include DBL.

So has DirecTV officially responded to why DBL is not offered?
Welcome to the forums! :welcome_s

If one accepts the verbal communications given to Earl and myself as "official" [enough], then yes. :)

If one is expecting a press release, I don't believe one will come on an issue of this nature. Very, very rarely do I see a press release from companies detailing of why features are not included. :eek2:

If one is expecting a statement thru a press agency, is there something fundamentally different from a "highly placed official at DIRECTV" telling Ben Drawbaugh at Engadget vs. same person telling Earl or me? (I picked Ben because he is a class act and nice guy.) :) Please, I do want to understand how you might perceive a difference. I do not want to sound as if I'm dismissing you or your perceptions.

Anyway the "Official Answer" that has been communicated to Earl and I is that DIRECTV has chosen to include other features first. Features DIRECTV feels are more important to the DVR experience than DLB--right now.

Part of the answer does include comments "we understand DLB is an important feature to many people", "we are considering DLB", etc.

I have not been told "it will never happen." I have been given expectations that it likely will not be soon.

I hope this answers your questions. And I understand that reviewing a 110 page thread is difficult. :)

Cheers,
Tom

JBernardK

01-29-08, 05:04 PM

Anyway the "Official Answer" that has been communicated to Earl and I is that DIRECTV has chosen to include other features first. Features DIRECTV feels are more important to the DVR experience than DLB--right now.

Did they say what those other features are?

Tom Robertson

01-29-08, 05:11 PM

Did they say what those other features are?
Some and you can find discussions of the next likely features in the various threads. I just can't confirm what I've been told or they won't tell me anything else. Basically, as soon as I am given clearance to say something, I do, as I'm sure Earl does too.

Cheers,
Tom

chuckg

01-29-08, 07:49 PM

I have just come from the R16-300 thread. I am impressed. So I searched around to see if it had DLB. Apparently not. So I will stick with the Series 2.

HiDef. Without DLB. Not likely. DLB trumps every other feature on a DVR except List Guide. Including being able to set up future recordings via the List Guide.

raw121

01-29-08, 07:59 PM

No, and they probably never will issue a press release on why they decided not include DLB as a feature in their first DVR+ system 27 months ago...

As official as it is going to get... DirecTV decided that DLB was not a feature they wanted in THEIR DVR platform.

This doesn't make a lot of sense if you look at the numbers at the top of the page. It seems that less 5% of the people don't care about it. A lot of people would like it and a lot more would REALLY like it. How many companies would ignore a focus group that came back in favor of something so overwhelmingly? It is not like this is an impossible or an unrealistic feature.

I know you'll say that we are not the typical users, but we must have some value to them or this site wouldn't have the access that it does. It is just a contradiction that I can't wrap my head around since I have been here. I have started to post to this thread many times about this but I keep thinking it would become clear to me at some point. It hasn't. Done with my little vent.

Earl Bonovich

01-29-08, 08:09 PM

If you look at the numbers as compared to the entire population of DVR+ owners... that number is a tiny fraction of the entire population.

We are "not" a focus group. We are a pretty specific nitch of users... that have valuable input... but in true focus groups, they are selected with various factors so the results of that focus group can be applied to the entire population.

This is also a poll that has been around for over a year... that just anyone could vote... and a lot of the voting was when people were coming straight from another system that had DLB.... What if we reset the poll.. .and revoted today...

We have plenty of value... but we are not the bigger picture.
We are just one of several different points of input and information for DireTV.

Mike Bertelson

01-29-08, 08:13 PM

Earl Bonovich

01-29-08, 08:14 PM

Can we have a poll in which the thread itself is closed?

No posts, just votes?

Mike

Sorry... the forum doesn't support such an option.

boltjames

01-29-08, 08:30 PM

If you look at the numbers as compared to the entire population of DVR+ owners... that number is a tiny fraction of the entire population.

This is also a poll that has been around for over a year... that just anyone could vote... and a lot of the voting was when people were coming straight from another system that had DLB.... What if we reset the poll.. .and revoted today...

Earl, I think re-setting the poll would be a good idea for many reasons:

1. Your point about it being skewed by HR10 loyalists who during the past year were basically abandoned by D* for another DVR, voting early without giving the HR20 a fair chance. Their points of view may have changed. I know mine did. Was a violent supporter of Tivo, thought I couldn't live without it, until I gave the HR20 a week and realized it was a better product.

2. It's 2008 and the D* playing field has changed. With millions more subscribers and almost 100 HD channels, it's very different than 2007 when HD meant 12 channels. DBS has a larger infusion of new "average" TV users and not the power niche group that dominated DBS while the Tivo transition was just underway. Would be interesting to see what this new mix of the DBS community thinks now.

3. When this poll was first started, it wasn't a fair fight. The HR20 wasn't a mature product, D* had very little HD content, and Tivo fandom was at an all time peak. Now with the HR20 being mature and, in many ways, a superior product to the HR10, it would be interesting to see how things would play out now. Are more people okay with DLB's removal in light of the other array of great features? Would love to find out.

4. The amount of posts and page views make this seem to be a much bigger deal than it really is. Newbs who know nothing of the HR10 vs. HR20 battles would think that something's terribly wrong with D* and it's DVR when it's really not. It's a nostalgic remnant of a war that's long over, and if you weren't a member who went to battle it's a bit confusing.

5. Most importantly, it may show that there are far fewer D* owners in DBS that actually care about DLB any more and may constructively show those involved that as time changes, people change and that they too need to be a bit more flexible.

BJ

ToddinVA

01-29-08, 08:55 PM

So if you don't like the results, let's start from scratch again! :rolleyes:

Earl Bonovich

01-29-08, 09:02 PM

So if you don't like the results, let's start from scratch again! :rolleyes:

Absolutely not...

The "results" are over an 18 month period of time.

And ones vote 18 months ago... may or may not reflect what their current opinion was.

If you go back and look at my review of the R15 27ish months ago...
You'll find that I too was disapointed that DLB was there...

But then I realized how often I didn't use it... and came to the conclusion that it is not a "must have" or even a big deal for my viewing pattern.

So yes... on the first day... I would say it was a must have need.
But now... not so much...

Lord Vader

01-29-08, 09:16 PM

Part of the answer does include comments "we understand DLB is an important feature to many people", "we are considering DLB", etc.

I have not been told "it will never happen."

Cheers,
Tom

As long as those quotes are true, then there is always hope; and there is, of course, nothing wrong with hope. It keeps people going, gives them something to live for.

Kinda like being a Chicago Cubs fan. :D

Dr. Booda

01-29-08, 09:40 PM

DirecTV didn't find value in CLOANING TiVo... and I think that is the #1 mistake users made in comming over to the DVR+ platform... they all assumed it would do everything TiVo did... and then more...

That isn't the case, that was never going to be the case.

Why wouldn’t one assume that the HR2x series would evolve the HR10 to a new level? Many product lines do just that (i.e. my Denon AVR series A/V receiver; new features are added to the present baseline, while the baseline is preserved). When a product (TiVo) became the default synonym for a DVR in the lexicon, why not assume that it would be utilized as a baseline towards evolutionary new features?

I didn’t come to the HR2x series platform by choice; it was the only way to enjoy the HD programming that was to be offered by DirecTV and still utilize a DVR. At first, paying $300 for a leased unit that was still in beta test for software made me wonder… if only DirecTV had used the HR10 as a baseline, would these difficulties exist?

If TiVo was dismissed as a business partner due to their future stability as a company, fine, but to dismiss their technology as not being the populist baseline is incorrect.

boltjames

01-29-08, 10:05 PM

So if you don't like the results, let's start from scratch again! :rolleyes:

Well then, what's the harm in resetting it to zero? If you're correct, we should have the same results in a year's time, right?

I'd argue that the vast majority of those who voted in favor of DLB aren't active members anymore, vented when their Tivo's were abandoned, and now are living happily with their HR20's.

Let's reset the poll and the thread count and see what happens. I bet it will surprise you.

BJ

boltjames

01-29-08, 10:11 PM

Why wouldn’t one assume that the HR2x series would evolve the HR10 to a new level?

It did, and that's what's so disappointing in the reaction to DLB.

Get a piece of paper and jot down all that was lost from the HR10 and all that has been gained in the HR20 and it's not even close. No contest.

You should bow before the altar of Native Mode, or the speedy menus, or the softkeys, or the 'stop' button, or the HD guide markers, or the 90 minute buffer, or the quiet operation, or any of the other major features that the HR10 lacked.

DLB was never a Tivo "feature". It was a happy accident. A strange occurrence where two-tuner recording had a bit of a hack that allowed a user to do something unintended.

Focus on the upside of all the good new HR20 features; don't focus at all on the HR10's non-feature that some have adopted as if it were a lost and abused puppy. That's not what the Tivo founding fathers intended.

BJ

Dr. Booda

01-29-08, 10:44 PM

It did, and that's what's so disappointing in the reaction to DLB.

Get a piece of paper and jot down all that was lost from the HR10 and all that has been gained in the HR20 and it's not even close. No contest.

You should bow before the altar of Native Mode, or the speedy menus, or the softkeys, or the 'stop' button, or the HD guide markers, or the 90 minute buffer, or the quiet operation, or any of the other major features that the HR10 lacked.

BJ

You mean the native mode that takes 5 seconds to change channels and then crashes the box if used repeatedly with an HDMI connection? The speedy menus that when set to scroll mode take a second to advance? I don't know what you mean by the 'stop" button reference. HD guide markers; do you mean the little HD symbol on the guide? Great evolution in technology to read the HD guide info, which is incomplete and doesn’t differentiate between first run and repeats like TiVo did. The 90 minute buffer is nice; just make two of them and it would be acceptable. My HR10 doesn’t sound like any louder than my HR2x, so no difference there.

The other major HR2x features (media share, interactive gaming, DOD) are also not essential components of a DVR and are useless in regards to live TV viewing. If others find those features great then fine, I don't. I have other products that perform those functions much better and without any issues when compared to the HR2x series.

Doug Brott

01-29-08, 11:27 PM

HiDef. Without DLB. Not likely. DLB trumps every other feature on a DVR except List Guide. Including being able to set up future recordings via the List Guide.

At this juncture, I'd have to say (1) recording/playback and (2) HD are the most important features of the HR20 series. DLB would be nice, but I'm doing fine without it.

James Long

01-29-08, 11:31 PM

The new voters on the poll are still trending at the same basic percentage as the original voters. I don't believe it would make that much of a difference to vote again.

It certainly wouldn't make a difference to DirecTV. If they were going to respond to this 'petition' they would have done it already. It is pretty clear that they will add DLB if and when they want to.

BigLars

01-29-08, 11:47 PM

Well then, what's the harm in resetting it to zero? If you're correct, we should have the same results in a year's time, right?

I'd argue that the vast majority of those who voted in favor of DLB aren't active members anymore, vented when their Tivo's were abandoned, and now are living happily with their HR20's.

Let's reset the poll and the thread count and see what happens. I bet it will surprise you.

BJ

That's the nature of polls - say your peace and move on. Threads on polls, however - those are for the hardcore.

I suspect a few might now fall into the 'easy come, easy go' category but most who were passionate to find this thread and vote (and then stick with it 100+ pages) would still feel the same way today. I do, anyway. DLB was the one non-core feature on the HR10 that I (and my wife) used everyday. And that was before my kids began monopolizing the single buffer with Sponge Bob and Zoey 101 (and often the other tuner as well, now that they've discovered how to scroll trough the guide and make little red "R"s everywhere).

I realize my meager postings aren't going to bring DLB back but they are mildly cathartic. I'm quite happy with my HR20, and getting happier with every update. But that doesn't diminish my desire for DLB.

Larry

Que

01-30-08, 12:16 AM

The new voters on the poll are still trending at the same basic percentage as the original voters. I don't believe it would make that much of a difference to vote again.

I know that some would change there vote today but, I want to list all the stats I have made in this post. When did you vote?.......... I think James is right.

03-31-07
A must have! 1007 74.76%
Don't really care about it. 85 6.31%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 255 18.93%

Voters: 1347
04-23-07
A must have! 1117 75.07%
Don't really care about it. 94 6.32%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 277 18.62%
Voters: 1488

6-11-07
A must have! 1253 75.48%
Don't really care about it. 105 6.33%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 302 18.19%
Voters: 1660.

07-05-07
A must have! 1326 75.56%
Don't really care about it. 109 6.21%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 320 18.23%
Voters: 1755

08-02-07
A must have! 1592 75.74%
Don't really care about it. 121 5.76%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 389 18.51%
Voters: 2102.

Replies Views

1,138 63,976

09-07-07
A must have! 1840 76.16%
Don't really care about it. 134 5.55%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 442 18.29%
Voters: 2416

Replies 1,437
Views 78,583

10-01-07
A must have! 2057 76.64%
Don't really care about it. 142 5.29%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 485 18.07%
Voters: 2684.

Replies 1,590
Views 87,969

11-20-07
A must have! 2444 77.27%
Don't really care about it. 154 4.87%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 565 17.86%
Voters: 3163

Replies- 1,921
Views- 108,017

12-08-07
A must have! 2500 77.26%
Don't really care about it. 159 4.91%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 577 17.83%
Voters: 3236.

Replies- 2,027
Views- 113,872

cartrivision

01-30-08, 12:16 AM

You mean the native mode that takes 5 seconds to change channels and then crashes the box if used repeatedly with an HDMI connection? The speedy menus that when set to scroll mode take a second to advance? I don't know what you mean by the 'stop" button reference. HD guide markers; do you mean the little HD symbol on the guide? Great evolution in technology to read the HD guide info, which is incomplete and doesn’t differentiate between first run and repeats like TiVo did. The 90 minute buffer is nice; just make two of them and it would be acceptable. My HR10 doesn’t sound like any louder than my HR2x, so no difference there.

The other major HR2x features (media share, interactive gaming, DOD) are also not essential components of a DVR and are useless in regards to live TV viewing. If others find those features great then fine, I don't. I have other products that perform those functions much better and without any issues when compared to the HR2x series.

That’s the major problem with the people setting the priorities of the DVR software development team. They are squandering valuable resources developing substantial functions such as media sharing that may be nice little additions to a DVR, but it ignores the reality that there is very little demand for such features which will go completely unused by the overwhelming majority of the HR20 users.

The HR20 development effort needs a major refocusing of priorities, because their present course of actions is often very questionable.

James Long

01-30-08, 12:26 AM

I know that some would change there vote today but, I want to list all the stats I have made in this post. When did you vote?.......... I think James is right.I think so too ... or as I said two weeks ago:
That works (somewhat) if you look at the change. It doesn't show the change in opinion of those who have already voted - but:

9-18 to 11-20: 639 voters - 80% Must Have, 2.5% don't care.
11-20 to 12-12: 131 voters - 78% Must Have, 6.8% don't care.
12-12 to 1-11: 168 voters - 79% Must Have, 4.2% don't care.
Since 1-11: 39 voters - 89% Must Have, no new "don't care".
Since 1-11: 148 voters - 82% Must Have, 4.7% don't care.

boltjames

01-30-08, 07:04 AM

It certainly wouldn't make a difference to DirecTV. If they were going to respond to this 'petition' they would have done it already. It is pretty clear that they will add DLB if and when they want to.

Well then, how about we just eliminate the poll and lock the sticky as a simple informative message to HR10 converts?

The idea, as has been explained to me, was to have one sticky that has one basic theme for newbs and HR10 converts so they don't ask the question repeatedly on the main board.

If D* knows about the wishes of this fraction of the user base, there doesn't need to be an appeal to them any more. No poll needed. They know.

If newbs know that DLB doesn't exist and won't exist on an HR20, there doesn't need to be an active thread any more. No venting of frustration by this angry fraction needed.

As such, a closed sticky with a subject line that reads:

IMPORTANT: HR10 Tivo Owners - Please Read About Dual Buffer Jumping On The HR20/1

...and a post that reads:

The Dual Live Buffer (DLB) that allowed you to jump between two live shows without either of them losing their 30 minute buffer is not available on the HR20/1.

Instead, D* has supplied a single 90 minute buffer.

D* is aware that some subscribers want this feature and it is possible that it may be addressed on a future release.

Please do not post on the subject on DBS Talk. We will inform the community on any new information via a subscription to this thread. Thanks.

This way, no more whining about the "feature" being missing, no more poll that D* doesn't care about, no more high page views that may scare off a new D* subscriber into thinking there's a major flaw in the DVR.

DBS Talk needs to ask itself what's more important: A platform for continued complaining and lobbying for a feature that's not coming back -or- a way to let this die and let newbs not be misled into thinking there's a big problem with D* and their DVR.

Close the poll, reset the thread to 1 post and 1 page view, lock it, allow email subscriptions, done. It's a win-win.

BJ

Earl Bonovich

01-30-08, 07:14 AM

DBS Talk needs to ask itself what's more important: A platform for continued complaining and lobbying for a feature that's not coming back -or- a way to let this die and let newbs not be misled into thinking there's a big problem with D* and their DVR.

Close the poll, reset the thread to 1 post and 1 page view, lock it, allow email subscriptions, done. It's a win-win.

BJ

Users needs to ask themselves, what are they expecting from DBSTalk.
Do you want a place where Ideas can be discussed and discussion can occur (on any topic). Where you have the ability to NOT ready or paricipate in discussions.
Or should it be come a specialized wiki-pedia type site.

And that the staff has discussed many different options for this particular topic, and this single sticky thread still comes out on top to meet our goals as a forum, and still allow discussion on it.

tiger2005

01-30-08, 07:25 AM

Well then, how about we just eliminate the poll and lock the sticky as a simple informative message to HR10 converts?

The idea, as has been explained to me, was to have one sticky that has one basic theme for newbs and HR10 converts so they don't ask the question repeatedly on the main board.

If D* knows about the wishes of this fraction of the user base, there doesn't need to be an appeal to them any more. No poll needed. They know.

If newbs know that DLB doesn't exist and won't exist on an HR20, there doesn't need to be an active thread any more. No venting of frustration by this angry fraction needed.

As such, a closed sticky with a subject line that reads:

IMPORTANT: HR10 Tivo Owners - Please Read About Dual Buffer Jumping On The HR20/1

...and a post that reads:

The Dual Live Buffer (DLB) that allowed you to jump between two live shows without either of them losing their 30 minute buffer is not available on the HR20/1.

Instead, D* has supplied a single 90 minute buffer.

D* is aware that some subscribers want this feature and it is possible that it may be addressed on a future release.

Please do not post on the subject on DBS Talk. We will inform the community on any new information via a subscription to this thread. Thanks.

This way, no more whining about the "feature" being missing, no more poll that D* doesn't care about, no more high page views that may scare off a new D* subscriber into thinking there's a major flaw in the DVR.

DBS Talk needs to ask itself what's more important: A platform for continued complaining and lobbying for a feature that's not coming back -or- a way to let this die and let newbs not be misled into thinking there's a big problem with D* and their DVR.

Close the poll, reset the thread to 1 post and 1 page view, lock it, allow email subscriptions, done. It's a win-win.

BJ

BJ, I really don't understand your purpose here. This entire forum is a DISCUSSION forum. You like to say that this thread/poll make no sense and its nothing except a thread about whining. I beg to differ. Over the last few days alone, the discussion about DLB has evolved into discussions about future features, the need for the existing features DirecTV has implemented, what user 'definitions' are of a DVR in general and what features should be considered standard in a DVR. I find all of those discussions to be very worthwhile and one of the exact reasons I joined this forum. Its highly unlikely that anyone here is a child, so most people should be old enough to think for themselves and make decisions on their own.

So I ask you to please, as Tom, Earl, etc. has indicated to people in the past in this thread, if you have a beef with how the board is moderated send a PM to one of the moderators and discuss it with them there. Thank you.

boltjames

01-30-08, 07:43 AM

tiger2005 BJ, I really don't understand your purpose here. This entire forum is a DISCUSSION forum. You like to say that this thread/poll make no sense and its nothing except a thread about whining. I beg to differ.

My purpose here is to discuss and interact with others too, but I come from a different angle. This particular thread is filled with gearheads, experts in the technology, and with an agenda. I think I represent the silent majority of non-gearheads. People that just want to watch D* in the best quality possible and have a few questions. I should have jumped from the HR10 to the HR20 a year ago but didn't because of the propoganda and negativity over at the Tivo Forums, and it saddens me to see other innocent newbs potentially being misled here by a perceived problem that doesn't really exist.

Over the last few days alone, the discussion about DLB has evolved into discussions about future features, the need for the existing features DirecTV has implemented, what user 'definitions' are of a DVR in general and what features should be considered standard in a DVR. I find all of those discussions to be very worthwhile and one of the exact reasons I joined this forum.

And there are plenty of existing threads in which to carry out this type of non-DLB conversation, so I fail to see how this one sticky needs to exist for this general DVR dialog.

So I ask you to please, as Tom, Earl, etc. has indicated to people in the past in this thread, if you have a beef with how the board is moderated send a PM to one of the moderators and discuss it with them there. Thank you.

The conversation on DLB evolved yesterday into a discussion on the purpose of this thread itself, including the moderators talking openly about its existence and the necessity for the poll. I chimed in on that open conversation as did other posters. Saying I have a beef with the moderators or how this thread is moderated is unfair.

BJ

tiger2005

01-30-08, 07:45 AM

That’s the major problem with the people setting the priorities of the DVR software development team. They are squandering valuable resources developing substantial functions such as media sharing that may be nice little additions to a DVR, but it ignores the reality that there is very little demand for such features which will go completely unused by the overwhelming majority of the HR20 users.

The HR20 development effort needs a major refocusing of priorities, because their present course of actions is often very questionable.

+1!!

The problem I see with all of that is that the features they've implemented, with the exception of media sharing, all are designed to generate additional revenue streams for DirecTV. That seems to be DirecTV's number one priority in relation to new features on this box. Until the people in control of the platform features think that DLB is causing them to lose revenue, I don't see it being implemented. Hopefully Dish Network's new marketing campaign about their top-of-the-line DVR's will cause those same people to realize there is alot of room for additional feature development on the DirecTV platform outside of items that generate additional revenue beyond subs.

Earl Bonovich

01-30-08, 07:51 AM

+1!!

The problem I see with all of that is that the features they've implemented, with the exception of media sharing, all are designed to generate additional revenue streams for DirecTV. That seems to be DirecTV's number one priority in relation to new features on this box. Until the people in control of the platform features think that DLB is causing them to lose revenue, I don't see it being implemented. Hopefully Dish Network's new marketing campaign about their top-of-the-line DVR's will cause those same people to realize there is alot of room for additional feature development on the DirecTV platform outside of items that generate additional revenue beyond subs.

So all the other featuers are useless to everyone?
They have no value.

DoD is free, but adds PPV opportunities
Mediashare is free
Remote Booking is free
All the other features added to the box... where are they charging for those?

There isn't a single feature on the DVR+ platform, that you need to pay DirecTV any extra fee for, past the $5.99 (for the account) DVR Fee.

In your signature you have:
"The inclusion of other features (Media Share, DOD, Interactive Gaming) instead of DLB is a case of trying to please everyone some of the time"

The same could be said for DLB...
Given that there are a LOT of people that still find a lot of value in the DVR+ platform, without DLB.... would DLB just be another attempt at satisifying some of the people?

It is a feature... just like every other feature on the box.

The quote you included... regarding developers/limited resources....

At least in my case... I get a TON more value out of DoD and Mediashare, then I would with DLB... and I am sure I am not alone.

As you (those that need to have the critical DLB function) are not alone as well.

At the end of the day... this is DirecTV's DVR... They want the functions in that system that are best for THEIR plans and THEIR direction.

As for your Dish Network comment....

Did you notice their "target"... it isn't DirecTV's DVR... It is TiVo... which is a double edge attack, as they are targetting cable/fiber based customers...
Not necessarily the DirecTV DVR customers.

boltjames

01-30-08, 07:52 AM

Dr. Booda You mean the native mode that takes 5 seconds to change channels and then crashes the box if used repeatedly with an HDMI connection?

I have owned two HR20's since June of last year and have never had an issue of 5 second channel changes and HDMI box crashing. The channel change would be impacted by the speed of the TV, not the box itself. Not sure what the HDMI problem is. Perhaps you have a defective unit.

The speedy menus that when set to scroll mode take a second to advance?

Still significantly faster than the Tivo's menus on the HR10.

I don't know what you mean by the 'stop" button reference.

For the non-gearhead, watching a recorded program and needing to figure out that "Live TV" is the same thing as hitting "Stop" was a point of HR10 frustration, at least for my wife, kids, and visiting in-laws who didn't know how to stop the recording.

HD guide markers; do you mean the little HD symbol on the guide? Great evolution in technology to read the HD guide info, which is incomplete and doesn’t differentiate between first run and repeats like TiVo did.

Again, an advance over the HR10. I can, at a glance, see which programs are in HD and which aren't without having to navigate to a show and read the fine print in the info banner.

The 90 minute buffer is nice; just make two of them and it would be acceptable.

Point taken. But at least we don't have one 30 minute buffer. At least the one we have is enough to capture 1 complete movie, half a football game, or 3 sitcoms.

My HR10 doesn’t sound like any louder than my HR2x, so no difference there.

My HR10 was really loud, as were my 4 Sony T-60's. I find the HR20 is the quietest DVR I've ever owned.

The other major HR2x features (media share, interactive gaming, DOD) are also not essential components of a DVR and are useless in regards to live TV viewing. If others find those features great then fine, I don't. I have other products that perform those functions much better and without any issues when compared to the HR2x series.

I don't use those features either, but it does show that the product is moving forward and can morph into other purposes.

BJ

dennisj00

01-30-08, 08:29 AM

I've thrown my $.02 in before on this thread and am still a big advocate of DLB -- regardless of the fact that I added an HR20 in the bedroom yesterday to replace a standalone Tivo. (in preparation of MRV???) and yes, DTV sent me a HR20 without asking specifically.

One use of the DLB that I SORELY miss is the ability to quickly check out the other tuner - another program - without the risk of dumping the main buffer that I'm watching. It was nice to check a program in the listing or see if it were something I should record and return to my main program.

I currently use the DLB workaround to watch two programs at the same time - yes, there are a number of times that I watch LIVE (or close to live) TV and wish I didn't have to set up one as a recording and hold my breath everytime I switch that I don't lose the live buffer.

I challenge anyone to come up with a workaround to see the second tuner without fumbling through a temporary recording. On my T-60 it's one click of either the 'LIVE TV" button or the down arrow.

I'd easily settle for two 45 minute buffers (or any split of the 90) that switch with the down arrow. Is that so hard to do? And worth not getting the Tivo converts?
(I know right now demand for the hr20 isn't an issue)

Green23

01-30-08, 08:30 AM

DLB was never a Tivo "feature". It was a happy accident. A strange occurrence where two-tuner recording had a bit of a hack that allowed a user to do something unintended.

BJ

It was not an accident- there are 2 independent tuners and one can switch between them. Why is that "strange" or a "hack" or "unintended?"

It's a simple concept- 2 independent tuners in the box and the ability to view either one. The DVR+ tuners seem to be dependent ones, as you have to start a recording on one tuner to access the second tuner in the workarounds.

Lord Vader

01-30-08, 08:41 AM

Users needs to ask themselves, what are they expecting from DBSTalk.
Do you want a place where Ideas can be discussed and discussion can occur (on any topic). Where you have the ability to NOT ready or paricipate in discussions.
Or should it be come a specialized wiki-pedia type site.

And that the staff has discussed many different options for this particular topic, and this single sticky thread still comes out on top to meet our goals as a forum, and still allow discussion on it.

Indeed. If BJ doesn't like it, he doesn't have to come here and act like he's speaking for everyone and DirecTV in saying that the thread should be closed. And by the way, no one ever said DLB was "never coming back," as BJ claims. Those who know have simply stated that it's just not #1 on DirecTV's priority list.

The odds are high that BJ is a DirecTV lackey, for who else would lead such an anti-DLB crusade?

puffnstuff

01-30-08, 09:22 AM

I still want to know what the feature is that is going to make it apparent to us why they don't have DLB . Come on Earl please let us know , I have been reading this thread since day 1 when I was told it was coming . Then it was they are working to implement it . Then it will become apparent . Well it hasn't to me . So when will we ever know . I sure hope it's before I renew ! I love my HR's , but as said before in the thread , every extra that they include , I already have something else that does a way better job then the HR and that is crap . While I will say that DLB is not a core function of a DVR at least it's a function and not some poorly implemented extra's .

anubys

01-30-08, 09:33 AM

jgriffin7

01-30-08, 09:42 AM

puffnstuff

01-30-08, 09:51 AM

it's been suggested -- and it's very plausible -- in this thread that said feature is the MRV

if that were the reason, I certainly am willing to wait for DLB...but would love to have both of them at some point (soon! :D )...

I hope not , even though I think it is so they can push dod ( which is not ok either ) . As for MRV I don't understad the big deal . I mean I would love it and all . But with them waiting so long for it I don't need it anymore with e-sata and 3 HR's on 1 tv . Also I don't want to leave Directv but DLB is a deal breaker for me since every box I had before had DLB and that was what Directv got me use to . So if not soon I will just drop everything except for basic and up what I get on my cable box .

anubys

01-30-08, 09:58 AM

Tom Robertson

01-30-08, 10:04 AM

Indeed. If BJ doesn't like it, he doesn't have to come here and act like he's speaking for everyone and DirecTV in saying that the thread should be closed. And by the way, no one ever said DLB was "never coming back," as BJ claims. Those who know have simply stated that it's just not #1 on DirecTV's priority list.

The odds are high that BJ is a DirecTV lackey, for who else would lead such an anti-DLB crusade?

Careful with the insinuations, please.

BJ would be the ONLY person from DIRECTV I've met that has such an agenda. I have spoken with several at CES, most are intimately involved with the project, and none has spoken with any amount of fervor against DLB. They all have been very interested in hearing what the customers think about DLB, not foisting their views upon me or others.

Again, DIRECTV has other features they have and want to continue to include first. And this was from a respectable consideration of DLB, not just a quick reaction.

Cheers,
Tom

puffnstuff

01-30-08, 10:08 AM

well, MRV would solve the DLB solution without DLB...just think about it...if you're an NFL ST fan and want to watch a lot of games, MRV gives you access to as many as 8 live buffers at once...it would make DLB seem like the model T car of the early 1900s...

we have 4 DVRs (2 HR20s and 2 HR10s) at home...but at most, 2 TVs are on at any one time...that means AT LEAST 4 tuners are sitting idle at all times...with MRV, you can access them all...

But I already have acces to 8 tuners and 3TB's of space plus whatever my cable box has . So with them taking so long with it I would think alot of people either , won't have access or want to set up a network or won't even care about it . I think the feature would mostly be used by people like us on the forum and as said in ths thread we are a niche goup . So I guess I am asking why is MRV so important when there are still issue's with core functions that need to be addressed first ? Why not work on DLB also ? Why keep people in the dark for so long ? Why no DLB in the first place ? Why are we here ? All answer's I guess I'll find out when I'm dead . Wait a minute can't you help with that Anubys ?

Dr. Booda

01-30-08, 11:19 AM

I have owned two HR20's since June of last year and have never had an issue of 5 second channel changes and HDMI box crashing. The channel change would be impacted by the speed of the TV, not the box itself. Not sure what the HDMI problem is. Perhaps you have a defective unit.

I don't use those features either, but it does show that the product is moving forward and can morph into other purposes.
I have had a Sharp Aquos LC-45GD6U hooked up to both the HR10 & HR2x for over three years now. The HR10 never had a problem with HDMI and neither does the HR2x with native off. However, native on has reeked havoc with my HDMI link ever since I first tried it 18 months ago. Maybe it's the TV, but other components I own don't have a problem.

I don't necessary need the DVR to morph into anything else; I just want it to record programs reliably and have a functional DLB. It should perform its core function flawlessly, and then bring on other things (DOD) if desired.

Case in point: I actually recorded the State of The Union Address last Monday to be able to fast forward through all of the staged applauses (I think there were 70 or so). During playback, 50% of the fast forwards caused the audio to disappear as soon as playback resumed. The HR21 had to have the replay button pressed for the audio sync to resume. (My wife looked at me expecting the box to head through the window.) If after over two years of software development the unit still can’t playback a program without having a critical error, then someone’s priorities are messed up in Management. My HR10 has NEVER lost audio sync in over three years.

tiger2005

01-30-08, 11:59 AM

So all the other featuers are useless to everyone?
They have no value.

DoD is free, but adds PPV opportunities
Mediashare is free
Remote Booking is free
All the other features added to the box... where are they charging for those?

There isn't a single feature on the DVR+ platform, that you need to pay DirecTV any extra fee for, past the $5.99 (for the account) DVR Fee.

In your signature you have:
"The inclusion of other features (Media Share, DOD, Interactive Gaming) instead of DLB is a case of trying to please everyone some of the time"

The same could be said for DLB...
Given that there are a LOT of people that still find a lot of value in the DVR+ platform, without DLB.... would DLB just be another attempt at satisifying some of the people?

It is a feature... just like every other feature on the box.

The quote you included... regarding developers/limited resources....

At least in my case... I get a TON more value out of DoD and Mediashare, then I would with DLB... and I am sure I am not alone.

As you (those that need to have the critical DLB function) are not alone as well.

At the end of the day... this is DirecTV's DVR... They want the functions in that system that are best for THEIR plans and THEIR direction.

As for your Dish Network comment....

Did you notice their "target"... it isn't DirecTV's DVR... It is TiVo... which is a double edge attack, as they are targetting cable/fiber based customers...
Not necessarily the DirecTV DVR customers.

Come on Earl, for how long is DoD going to be completely free? You're telling me DirecTV has NO plans to charge for DoD content?

Another complaint about DoD, 95% of the content available to us at this point is content already playing on the stations we receive. What's the difference between me searching for a movie, TV show, etc. and recording it via my regular station vs. downloading the movie? By the time a freakin' movie is complete downloading it'll be on that station again. I've used DoD a few times to download movies I think I'll watch, and some other shows I think I'll be interested in and for the most part I either never watch them or if I do I get bored and delete them. Also, where's the HD content? With all the added HD channels, it kinda makes the SD DoD content pretty useless IMO. I'd rather wait a week to see something I want to see in HD, than download the SD equivalent.

And related to Dish Network, so you're saying that Dish Network is targetting cable/FiOS customers only??? So you're saying they're not interested in getting customers to move over from DirecTV and they're just ignoring that competition? Assuming you're correct, isn't it much more plausible that they're targetting the #1 DVR manufacturer and ignoring the 'lesser' competition of DirecTV. I find it very hard for anyone to even compare the Dish DVR's to DirecTV's line. If it was even a fair comparison, I'd probably be A LOT happier with the HR20.

ToddinVA

01-30-08, 12:02 PM

One use of the DLB that I SORELY miss is the ability to quickly check out the other tuner - another program - without the risk of dumping the main buffer that I'm watching. It was nice to check a program in the listing or see if it were something I should record and return to my main program.

I currently use the DLB workaround to watch two programs at the same time - yes, there are a number of times that I watch LIVE (or close to live) TV and wish I didn't have to set up one as a recording and hold my breath everytime I switch that I don't lose the live buffer.

I challenge anyone to come up with a workaround to see the second tuner without fumbling through a temporary recording. On my T-60 it's one click of either the 'LIVE TV" button or the down arrow.

I'd easily settle for two 45 minute buffers (or any split of the 90) that switch with the down arrow. Is that so hard to do? And worth not getting the Tivo converts?
(I know right now demand for the hr20 isn't an issue)
Excellent points!

tiger2005

01-30-08, 12:12 PM

well, MRV would solve the DLB solution without DLB...just think about it...if you're an NFL ST fan and want to watch a lot of games, MRV gives you access to as many as 8 live buffers at once...it would make DLB seem like the model T car of the early 1900s...

we have 4 DVRs (2 HR20s and 2 HR10s) at home...but at most, 2 TVs are on at any one time...that means AT LEAST 4 tuners are sitting idle at all times...with MRV, you can access them all...

So, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, with MRV I'd be able to, from my family room TV, watch a station on my HR20. Then use that same HR20 to access another HR20 I have in my bedroom and set that to buffer another show and then watch that show via my HR20 in the family room. Does that make sense? I always thought that MRV could only access programs that have been recorded on the hard drive, not actual live 'buffers'.

Also, what would be the transfer rate of a single HD recording over a network? I'm guessing that a significant amount of my network's available bandwidth will be cut.

Note: Why they wouldn't give the R15 and R16 models the ability to network, thereby eliminating MRV is beyond me because that cuts out A LOT of people from accessing any of these features in their DVR line.

boltjames

01-30-08, 12:15 PM

It was not an accident- there are 2 independent tuners and one can switch between them. Why is that "strange" or a "hack" or "unintended?"

It's a simple concept- 2 independent tuners in the box and the ability to view either one. The DVR+ tuners seem to be dependent ones, as you have to start a recording on one tuner to access the second tuner in the workarounds.

DLB was something that was discovered by accident and made the rounds through forums such as this one. Was not mentioned in the owners manual, has no dedicated and labeled button on the remote, was not a bullet point on the packaging, was not alluded to on the D* or Tivo websites.

That's why I refered to it as an "unintended hack". Like many hidden features that a few button presses can engage, DLB wasn't a mainstream feature of the product. Wasn't there to help it sell. The two-tuners are there for recording purposes; need to be able to watch one and record another. The ability to toggle between the two frivolously does not appear to be anything that D* thought was important. Not there now, never mentioned, was an underground thing for the gearheads.

BJ

boltjames

01-30-08, 12:21 PM

The odds are high that BJ is a DirecTV lackey, for who else would lead such an anti-DLB crusade?

No, not a D* employee.

And I'll argue that my love for the HR20 and my lack of tolerance for those that would besmirch it suits a better purpose for this community than the endless complaining about a non-feature that isn't high on D*'s radar. You may not like my point of view, but at least it's constructive, not destructive. At least it supports the current platform for all its amazing upside and doesn't rally against it for the one accidental gearhead feature it lacks.

BJ

Doug Brott

01-30-08, 12:24 PM

boltjames

01-30-08, 12:25 PM

I have had a Sharp Aquos LC-45GD6U hooked up to both the HR10 & HR2x for over three years now. The HR10 never had a problem with HDMI and neither does the HR2x with native off. However, native on has reeked havoc with my HDMI link ever since I first tried it 18 months ago. Maybe it's the TV, but other components I own don't have a problem.

I don't necessary need the DVR to morph into anything else; I just want it to record programs reliably and have a functional DLB. It should perform its core function flawlessly, and then bring on other things (DOD) if desired.

Case in point: I actually recorded the State of The Union Address last Monday to be able to fast forward through all of the staged applauses (I think there were 70 or so). During playback, 50% of the fast forwards caused the audio to disappear as soon as playback resumed. The HR21 had to have the replay button pressed for the audio sync to resume. (My wife looked at me expecting the box to head through the window.) If after over two years of software development the unit still can’t playback a program without having a critical error, then someone’s priorities are messed up in Management. My HR10 has NEVER lost audio sync in over three years.

I am sorry for the audio sync and HDMI issues you are struggling with, but I'm having no such issues with a similar setup and similar FF'ing on the same program and experienced no issues whatsoever.

Instead of believing that all HR20's are having these problems, perhaps yours is a defective unit that needs replacing. Mine are perfect and there does not seem to be a recall scenario being considered; it looks like you may have a modestly isolated situation.

BJ

boltjames

01-30-08, 12:26 PM

It was a long time ago now, but I'm pretty sure that TiVo had one of their famous pop-up messages on the receiver announcing the availability of what we've come to call Dual Live Buffers. Does anyone else remember this?

I would consider to be an official and not an unintended consequence.

DIRECTV has chosen to not follow that path.

My recollection is that my T-60's and my HR10 had the functionality but it was a visit here (or AVS) that opened my eyes to DLB.

BJ

puffnstuff

01-30-08, 12:29 PM

It was a long time ago now, but I'm pretty sure that TiVo had one of their famous pop-up messages on the receiver announcing the availability of what we've come to call Dual Live Buffers. Does anyone else remember this?

I would consider to be an official and not an unintended consequence.

DIRECTV has chosen to not follow that path.

They did . Also I never visited any forums way back then either , but I guess I got lucky and stumbled upon it before the announcement . I mean , come on how many people never accidently hit the live button and figured it out .:)

dennisj00

01-30-08, 12:38 PM

tiger2005

01-30-08, 12:54 PM

The remote for the Sony T-60 was so intuitive that it didn't take a degree to figure out what happened when you pressed Live TV the second (and third) time to cycle between two buffers with the status bar on screen.

I checked, nothing is in the manual but guess what, very few of the 'features' of the HR20 discussed in this thread are in the manual or printed material that I received yesterday. Besides, who reads the manual?!!

Great point! I guess a lot of the features for the HR20 are hacks???

The ENTIRE step-by-step for DLB is captured in the Series2 manuals available here on page 3:
http://tivosupport2.instancy.com/Content/Instancy%20V2%20Folders/2988/TiVo%20Series2%20Dual%20Tuner%20DVR%20Viewers%20Gu ide%20-%20The%20Basics%20in%20Five%20Short%20Tours.pdf

JBernardK

01-30-08, 12:56 PM

well, MRV would solve the DLB solution without DLB...just think about it...if you're an NFL ST fan and want to watch a lot of games, MRV gives you access to as many as 8 live buffers at once...it would make DLB seem like the model T car of the early 1900s...

we have 4 DVRs (2 HR20s and 2 HR10s) at home...but at most, 2 TVs are on at any one time...that means AT LEAST 4 tuners are sitting idle at all times...with MRV, you can access them all...

I think a lot depends on how they implement it. With the HD TiVo, for example, you can view previously recorded shows on a second TiVo, but there is a delay with HD material since the network is slower than real time. It is best used by transfering a program and then watching it. I don't think you can view a live tuner in another room. But of course D* may implement it differently.

Also the TiVo and the FIOS DVR have DLB and MRV so I don't see how DLB prevents MRV, but again it depends on how they implement it.

boltjames

01-30-08, 01:14 PM

Great point! I guess a lot of the features for the HR20 are hacks???

The ENTIRE step-by-step for DLB is captured in the Series2 manuals available here on page 3:

"Hacks" is the wrong word. My bad. I mean "tweaky". Or "underground". It's nothing that needs to be enabled by a hardware fix or a software fix; it's just not a feature that D* wants Mr. & Mrs. Camry to be too concerned about or even aware of.

BJ

ToddinVA

01-30-08, 01:15 PM

It was a long time ago now, but I'm pretty sure that TiVo had one of their famous pop-up messages on the receiver announcing the availability of what we've come to call Dual Live Buffers. Does anyone else remember this?

I would consider to be an official and not an unintended consequence.

DIRECTV has chosen to not follow that path.

Yep, dual tuner use wasn't ready yet when the original DirecTV SDTiVo came out years ago. There was all kinds of discussion about when it would come and when you could switch between the tuners. It showed up in a software update a few months later. It was hardly an accidental feature, Bolt...

jheda

01-30-08, 01:38 PM

Wow BJ, that should end your entire line of thinking that DLB is a hack, tweak, orunderground.
Its uncontroverted its a feature in a manual with instructions on how to utilize (see below).
Clearly a feature (core or not core, no dog in that fight :-) ) some (most?) want in their camry.

PS... IMHO, perhaps a little condescending for you to characterize DTV's perception of subs as "wants MR. and MRs. Camry to think about". I truly dont believe DTV is hiding the feature from its subs, my friend, so the subs are "not aware" of it. You might want to give the DTV engineers a little more credit, more in the lines of a known feature they have opted not to impliment.... to date.

Watching and Recording Two Shows At Once
The TiVo® Series2TM DT (dual tuner) DVR is capable of recording two different live TV
channels at the same time—one on each of its 2 tuners. Go ahead, try it:
1. First, press PAUSE to pause the live TV program you’re watching.
2. Press LIVE TV to switch to the other tuner. (It’s just like changing the channel.)
3. Watch the program for a few moments, then press PAUSE .
4. Press LIVE TV again to switch back to the first tuner. Notice that the first program
you were watching is still paused. You can pause for up to 30 minutes on each tuner!
Press PLAY to continue watching the program.
Now you really can watch two programs at the same time! Press RECORD while watching
either tuner—or on both tuners to record two programs at the same time.

"Hacks" is the wrong word. My bad. I mean "tweaky". Or "underground". It's nothing that needs to be enabled by a hardware fix or a software fix; it's just not a feature that D* wants Mr. & Mrs. Camry to be too concerned about or even aware of.

BJ

Steve

01-30-08, 01:51 PM

It was a long time ago now, but I'm pretty sure that TiVo had one of their famous pop-up messages on the receiver announcing the availability of what we've come to call Dual Live Buffers. Does anyone else remember this?

I would consider to be an official and not an unintended consequence.

DIRECTV has chosen to not follow that path.Yup. I remember when I first got my Sat-T60's, only one tuner was enabled, even though I ran lines for both. /steve

jahgreen

01-30-08, 02:00 PM

ATARI

01-30-08, 02:26 PM

Tell you what, D*, I'll pay $1 more a month for DLB.

Now you have your revenue stream.

Deal?

tiger2005

01-30-08, 02:28 PM

Isn't that exactly what a well-managed company should do?

I don't dispute that. But what is the overall gain? Disappointing customers by removing features they had previously, that the majority of the competition still offers? I know they'll be losing revenue from me this coming year when I cancel Sunday Ticket. I've kept it for the last two years I've had the HR20, and I don't find even close to the amount of enjoyment I had previously with DLB.

Adding 'features' such as DoD, interactive gaming, etc. that have little value to many people, and sacrificing feature's that enhance why I have DirecTV (DUH, for their TV service) go a much longer way to making me an unhappy customer, thereby looking at my other options. As I've said before, DirecTV has everyone by the b***s right now with their HD offerings, but how long is that really going to last? HD will be standard in the not too distant future so then what is DirecTV's business model going to be based on, Gamers Lounge?? Nice!

Mike Bertelson

01-30-08, 02:37 PM

"Hacks" is the wrong word. My bad. I mean "tweaky". Or "underground". It's nothing that needs to be enabled by a hardware fix or a software fix; it's just not a feature that D* wants Mr. & Mrs. Camry to be too concerned about or even aware of.

BJ

I don't understand why you continue to call it a "tweaky" or "underground" feature.

I installed my HDVR2 on 18th Nov 2003.

The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 3, page 35:

"With Dual Tuner, 30 minutes of live TV is saved on both tuners. That means you can use the instant replay, slow motion and pause features on either channel"

The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 4, page 46:

"With Dual Tuner, you can switch between two channels, and 30 minutes of live TV will be saved on each channel."

The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 4, page 47:

"With Dual Tuner, if you're switching between two channels by using the DOWN arrow, the DVR saves up to 30 minutes of live TV on both channels."

It wasn't a hidden feature.
It wasn't something you had figure out on your own.
It wasn't something you would only know about if you were a techie surfing the forums.

It was a well documented feature with descriptions/instructions in the manual.

Mike

EDITED TO ADD INFO
If you had read your manual you would have seen the following from the HR10-250 User's Guide, chapter 5, page 73:

"With dual tuner, you can switch between two channels using the DOWN arrow or the
LIVE TV button. The HD DVR saves up to 30 minutes of live TV on both channels."

Dr. Booda

01-30-08, 02:58 PM

I am sorry for the audio sync and HDMI issues you are struggling with, but I'm having no such issues with a similar setup and similar FF'ing on the same program and experienced no issues whatsoever.

Instead of believing that all HR20's are having these problems, perhaps yours is a defective unit that needs replacing. Mine are perfect and there does not seem to be a recall scenario being considered; it looks like you may have a modestly isolated situation.

BJ

The unit isn’t defective, the software is. I’ve had audio dropouts, interactive stat freeze-up, and other issues on all five of my HR2x units spanning ~16 months. Yes, the HR20 has become better over that time, but the fact that the HR21 still is experiencing some of these issues points directly to the software. The HR21 is lagging in its upgrades when compared to the HR20, however I read around these forums that things may catch up soon.

If it is the box, what is it? Did they forget to put enough memory in or the wrong processor inside? The thing is running like it is resource limited when it tries to initiate too many concurrent tasks, so maybe the extraneous features (Media share, DOD, interactive capabilities) that are not crucial to the main purpose of the unit are getting in the way. If so, better code is needed or less things should be in there (except for DLB of course :D ).

tiger2005

01-30-08, 03:13 PM

The unit isn’t defective, the software is. I’ve had audio dropouts, interactive stat freeze-up, and other issues on all five of my HR2x units spanning ~16 months. Yes, the HR20 has become better over that time, but the fact that the HR21 still is experiencing some of these issues points directly to the software. The HR21 is lagging in its upgrades when compared to the HR20, however I read around these forums that things may catch up soon.

If it is the box, what is it? Did they forget to put enough memory in or the wrong processor inside? The thing is running like it is resource limited when it tries to initiate too many concurrent tasks, so maybe the extraneous features (Media share, DOD, interactive capabilities) that are not crucial to the main purpose of the unit are getting in the way. If so, better code is needed or less things should be in there (except for DLB of course :D ).

No, I still have lip synch, trickplay, etc. with my HR20. I'm sure you know this, but you're not alone.

Doug Brott

01-30-08, 03:26 PM

Isn't that exactly what a well-managed company should do?

I would say that DIRECTV does a good job of focusing on their bottom line. While DLB is desired by many, it's doubtful that it's "removal" has hurt the bottom line and it's equally doubtful that any return would help the bottom line. Maybe that's true at some point in the future, but at this point the driving factor is HD and DLB isn't even in the same building, let alone the same room.

Dr. Booda

01-30-08, 03:41 PM

I would say that DIRECTV does a good job of focusing on their bottom line. While DLB is desired by many, it's doubtful that it's "removal" has hurt the bottom line and it's equally doubtful that any return would help the bottom line. Maybe that's true at some point in the future, but at this point the driving factor is HD and DLB isn't even in the same building, let alone the same room.

I agree that at the current time the bottom line is fairly immune to the lack of DLB. However, if competitors offer similar programming (both HD availability and monopolistic sports packages) customer base erosion will begin for those that miss the feature. DirecTV would be wise to maintain their death hold on NFLST in this regard, until Congress acts to break up the monopoly.

Earl Bonovich

01-30-08, 04:10 PM

I agree that at the current time the bottom line is fairly immune to the lack of DLB. However, if competitors offer similar programming (both HD availability and monopolistic sports packages) customer base erosion will begin for those that miss the feature. DirecTV would be wise to maintain their death hold on NFLST in this regard, until Congress acts to break up the monopoly.

What monopoly?

It is an exclusive contract between two companies... which had an opportunity for other companies to be involved in.

NFL owns the rights to their content...
They set the price.

DirecTV decided to pay it, others did not...

Anyway... that is a discussion for another thread...

Dr. Booda

01-30-08, 04:24 PM

What monopoly?

It is an exclusive contract between two companies... which had an opportunity for other companies to be involved in.

NFL owns the rights to their content...
They set the price.

DirecTV decided to pay it, others did not...

Anyway... that is a discussion for another thread...

Just a reference to the ongoing NFL Network fiasco, but it is off topic.

Lord Vader

01-30-08, 05:08 PM

Case in point: I actually recorded the State of The Union Address last Monday to be able to fast forward through all of the staged applauses (I think there were 70 or so). During playback, 50% of the fast forwards caused the audio to disappear as soon as playback resumed. The HR21 had to have the replay button pressed for the audio sync to resume. (My wife looked at me expecting the box to head through the window.) If after over two years of software development the unit still can’t playback a program without having a critical error, then someone’s priorities are messed up in Management. My HR10 has NEVER lost audio sync in over three years.

My HR20s have always done this, and I've just accepted it as a way of life--not that I like it, because every time I come out of FF or 30-second skip, it's not until I'm 4 to 5 seconds or so into the playback that my audio comes back. I then have to hit replay usually twice to go back so that by the time the show restarts, the audio is there with it.

inkahauts

01-30-08, 07:34 PM

I have not had audio drop out problems on recorded programs in months...

inkahauts

01-30-08, 07:36 PM

Green23

01-30-08, 08:00 PM

DLB was something that was discovered by accident and made the rounds through forums such as this one. Was not mentioned in the owners manual, has no dedicated and labeled button on the remote, was not a bullet point on the packaging, was not alluded to on the D* or Tivo websites.

That's why I refered to it as an "unintended hack". Like many hidden features that a few button presses can engage, DLB wasn't a mainstream feature of the product. Wasn't there to help it sell. The two-tuners are there for recording purposes; need to be able to watch one and record another. The ability to toggle between the two frivolously does not appear to be anything that D* thought was important. Not there now, never mentioned, was an underground thing for the gearheads.

BJ

I don't understand why you continue to call it a "tweaky" or "underground" feature.

I installed my HDVR2 on 18th Nov 2003.

The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 3, page 35:

"With Dual Tuner, 30 minutes of live TV is saved on both tuners. That means you can use the instant replay, slow motion and pause features on either channel"

The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 4, page 46:

"With Dual Tuner, you can switch between two channels, and 30 minutes of live TV will be saved on each channel."

The following is from the User's Guide, chapter 4, page 47:

"With Dual Tuner, if you're switching between two channels by using the DOWN arrow, the DVR saves up to 30 minutes of live TV on both channels."

It wasn't a hidden feature.
It wasn't something you had figure out on your own.
It wasn't something you would only know about if you were a techie surfing the forums.

It was a well documented feature with descriptions/instructions in the manual.

Mike

EDITED TO ADD INFO
If you had read your manual you would have seen the following from the HR10-250 User's Guide, chapter 5, page 73:

"With dual tuner, you can switch between two channels using the DOWN arrow or the
LIVE TV button. The HD DVR saves up to 30 minutes of live TV on both channels."

Wow---that just cut BJ's theory off at the knees.
It also demonstrates how a "dual tuner" system should operate. Let me have this type of access to the tuners again please...

jheda

01-30-08, 08:05 PM

And so ends ANY credibility to the argument that DLB was/is an unintended benefit. Mr. and Mrs. Camry, welcome back to DLB.....

Earl Bonovich

01-30-08, 08:11 PM

Ok, so I have a question for everyone... Does anyone remember how long it was between when the first Directv Tivo, (with only one tuner activated) came out and the upgrade that allowed for DLB? I just can't recall....

It took a couple weeks for Dual Tuners to even become active...
I don't remember how long between the time we got the first DirecTivo's and when dual tuners was activated.

If someone wants to dig... check out the archives at TiVoCommunity.
http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=7&daysprune=1000&sortorder=&sortfield=lastpost&perpage=35&pagenumber=837

Which I know was truncated... to it won't give the best start date, but you will be able to find dual tuners.

As for DLB... that will probably take some more digging...
As I am 90% sure it wasn't there when dual tuners was first activated... but don't recall a time frame on when it went active.

Mike Bertelson

01-30-08, 08:39 PM

Ok, so I have a question for everyone... Does anyone remember how long it was between when the first Directv Tivo, (with only one tuner activated) came out and the upgrade that allowed for DLB? I just can't recall....

I was searching through the Tivo Community Archives 1 and it seems DLB became active around the end of 2001 - begining of 2002.

This is cursory, so take it with a grain of salt.

I posted earlier today some excerpts from the manual which came with my HDVR2. I got the HDVR2 in November 2003.

Mike

Doug Brott

01-30-08, 09:18 PM

I was searching through the Tivo Community Archives 1 and it seems DLB became active around the end of 2001 - begriming of 2002.

This is cursory, so take it with a grain of salt.

I posted earlier today some excerpts from the manual which came with my HDVR2. I got the HDVR2 in November 2003.

Mike

I got my first SAT-T60 around November 2000 .. pretty much when they became available. Dual Tuners were roughly 6 months later ..

http://archive.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15632

The link above will take you to the "Earl" of the day .. Richard Bullwinkle affectionately known as TiVolutionary who hinted at a summer release of "Dual Tuners."

boltjames

01-30-08, 10:09 PM

Wow---that just cut BJ's theory off at the knees.
It also demonstrates how a "dual tuner" system should operate. Let me have this type of access to the tuners again please...

This wasn't an "A" or even "B" list feature. Buried in the manual? Might as well have left it off. No average D* user even knew the feature existed.

Do I even need to tell you why we very well know that's true?

BJ

skimmilk

01-30-08, 10:59 PM

Mike Bertelson

01-31-08, 02:48 AM

This wasn't an "A" or even "B" list feature. Buried in the manual? Might as well have left it off. No average D* user even knew the feature existed.

Do I even need to tell you why we very well know that's true?

BJ

I'm not sure it would be appropriate to assume to "know" what the average Directv user knows/thinks.

I don't think you can characterize multiple references as buried in the manual

Especially when one of them is separated from the main body as a tip and is in bold text.

However, I would be interested in reading why we very well know that's true.

DLB was something that was discovered by accident and made the rounds through forums such as this one. Was not mentioned in the owners manual, has no dedicated and labeled button on the remote, was not a bullet point on the packaging, was not alluded to on the D* or Tivo websites.

That's why I refered to it as an "unintended hack". Like many hidden features that a few button presses can engage, DLB wasn't a mainstream feature of the product. Wasn't there to help it sell. The two-tuners are there for recording purposes; need to be able to watch one and record another. The ability to toggle between the two frivolously does not appear to be anything that D* thought was important. Not there now, never mentioned, was an underground thing for the gearheads.

BJ

Truth is, DLB was anticipated and lauded(BTW, not my assumption...read the forums at the time). Although you could certainly argue that at the time it was limited tech savvy viewers...

Everyone I know with a DVR can switch between tuners. Ok, my in-laws don't count. They are in their 70s and couldn't even get it to record correctly. I love 'em but you couldn't find a less tech savvy couple of people. :lol: (no, really, I think my cats are more tech savvy)

The three people I know with DVR+ miss it but are ok with it so they would probably would fit the "Like the option but, Ok if it's not there.'

I don't think I know a single person that knows what it's called. They just know they can switch between tuners. Of course I'm not even sure dual live buffers is a real term outside the forums. I have no idea what it's called in "in the industry".

IMHO, based on personal experience, most people know about the ability to switch between tuners. Whatever they know it by or whatever or they call it, they know they can watch two live shows at once.

Just because people use it doesn't mean they feel they must have it so from that prospective you might say there's more of a "I'll miss it but..." kind of an atitude. I'm not sure you can say nobody cares. You certainly can't say nobody knows.

Mike

inkahauts

01-31-08, 04:06 AM

So lets recap... The Directv tivos were release to the general public before they had all the features up and running. They didn't receive DLB for at least 6 months, maybe 18 months? The units had issues when they first came out (I sold them and know they had plenty of issues), and over time the software was upgraded until the unit was fairly stable with only few problems....

Directv comes out with the HR2X's, built from the ground up, and releases software updates regularly making the unit more and more stable and add numerous features to it in about 16 months following its initial release, and they have added far more capabilities than tivo ever has, and have shown no signs of slowing down.

Sound familiar?

We are still very early in the life of the HR2X's...

inkahauts

01-31-08, 04:10 AM

Having just gotten my HR21, I just wanted to voice my frustration over the lack of true DLB. While I am an avid sports junkie, my wife and I are finding the lack of true DLB infuriating on all fronts especially now with the writers strike (no consistent good TV) and no more football. Having so many HD channels is useless when you are tied to just one without going through hoops. We change channels frequently, and do not follow more than 3 or 4 TV shows regularly. In the Tivo days, we might watch one channel with lots of 30 minute shows like Comedy Central, try to find something better on the other tuner and flip back between commercials. Then, we restart the search for something decent on the first tuner again if we find something good. This process continues for the remainder of the evening.

I apologize to the DTV overlords for not wanting to be a vegetable committing to one show on any regular basis let alone for the length of an episode.

I suggest you go through the guide for the next week and tell the unit to record anything you might be interested in. The sit down and watch what you've recorded and if you don't like it you can erase it and move on to the next show. All you would be doing is time shifting when you are searching vs. when you are watching, and everyone will be happy. Plus, maybe you'll find something to watch that is normally on at a time frame when your never in front of the TV. Especially with the writers strike, I can't handle watching any live tv.. I don't know how you do it!!!!:nono2:

raott

01-31-08, 04:53 AM

they have added far more capabilities than tivo ever has, and have shown no signs of slowing down.

That statement is all relative to what features are important to the user. Can I look at pictures on my HR20? -Yep. Do I care - Nope, used it once.

Neither Tivo (nor motorola) has limits on SLs.
Tivo (and motorola) have DLBs.

Those are two capabilities that are important to me, so given the features that are important to me, the HR2x/R15 is no more capable for what I use a DVR for than is tivo or motorola. There are abolutely some things I like about the D* DVRs, but they are balanced out by two glaring negatives.

Not only that, but the R15 has been out for well over two years now, so the analogy that Tivo took 18mos so give it a chance doesn't fly.

Mike Bertelson

01-31-08, 04:55 AM

Having just gotten my HR21, I just wanted to voice my frustration over the lack of true DLB. While I am an avid sports junkie, my wife and I are finding the lack of true DLB infuriating on all fronts especially now with the writers strike (no consistent good TV) and no more football. Having so many HD channels is useless when you are tied to just one without going through hoops. We change channels frequently, and do not follow more than 3 or 4 TV shows regularly. In the Tivo days, we might watch one channel with lots of 30 minute shows like Comedy Central, try to find something better on the other tuner and flip back between commercials. Then, we restart the search for something decent on the first tuner again if we find something good. This process continues for the remainder of the evening.

I apologize to the DTV overlords for not wanting to be a vegetable committing to one show on any regular basis let alone for the length of an episode.

Welcom to the forum...:welcome_s

There's a whole lot to like about the HR2x DVRs.

There are a couple of good ways to approximate DLB.

IMHO this link is one of the best.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=113126

Mike

ToddinVA

01-31-08, 05:11 AM

This wasn't an "A" or even "B" list feature. Buried in the manual? Might as well have left it off. No average D* user even knew the feature existed.

BJ

Are you for real?? That it utter nonsense. Just because you say so, doesn't make it so. :lol:

anubys

01-31-08, 05:45 AM

So, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, with MRV I'd be able to, from my family room TV, watch a station on my HR20. Then use that same HR20 to access another HR20 I have in my bedroom and set that to buffer another show and then watch that show via my HR20 in the family room. Does that make sense? I always thought that MRV could only access programs that have been recorded on the hard drive, not actual live 'buffers'.

Also, what would be the transfer rate of a single HD recording over a network? I'm guessing that a significant amount of my network's available bandwidth will be cut.

sorry about the late response...got to work sometime :D

as I understand MRV (and I could be wrong), you get as many units as you want (they would be stackable)...let's just call them HR20s to make it simple (they would not be HR20s in real life)...so if you got 4 HR20s, you would have 8 live tuners...those sit in a closet (where you put your multi-switch, for example) and would connect via ONE cable to a small receiver next to each TV where you command those HR20s...so you would have access to all 4 HR20s at the same time from each TV...all the cables and whirring/noisy hard drives would be in the closet...

in effect, you would have 8 live buffers at each TV...even if you can't toggle between them, you can have 8 recordings at once (8 NFL games, for example) and switch between them at will...this would make DLB obsolete...and you can watch anything you record anywhere in the house since none of the recordings would be specific to one room...

Michael D'Angelo

01-31-08, 05:51 AM

sorry about the late response...got to work sometime :D

as I understand MRV (and I could be wrong), you get as many units as you want (they would be stackable)...let's just call them HR20s to make it simple (they would not be HR20s in real life)...so if you got 4 HR20s, you would have 8 live tuners...those sit in a closet (where you put your multi-switch, for example) and would connect via ONE cable to a small receiver next to each TV where you command those HR20s...so you would have access to all 4 HR20s at the same time from each TV...all the cables and whirring/noisy hard drives would be in the closet...

in effect, you would have 8 live buffers at each TV...even if you can't toggle between them, you can have 8 recordings at once (8 NFL games, for example) and switch between them at will...this would make DLB obsolete...and you can watch anything you record anywhere in the house since none of the recordings would be specific to one room...

No, you would have an HR20 or HR21 at whatever locations in your house you want. You would need to have the networked wired or wireless to your home network. Than if you have something recorded on a different unit than the one you are actually using at the time you would be able to select a program from another unit and stream it over your network to the unit you are using to watch that program.

anubys

01-31-08, 06:02 AM

No, you would have an HR20 or HR21 at whatever locations in your house you want. You would need to have the networked wired or wireless to your home network. Than if you have something recorded on a different unit than the one you are actually using at the time you would be able to select a program from another unit and stream it over your network to the unit you are using to watch that program.

the setup I'm talking about is something that was discussed extensively...it's been a while since I checked on its progress...maybe it's not called MRV...but it's not a figment of my imagination...or is it?

Steve

01-31-08, 06:50 AM

as I understand MRV (and I could be wrong), you get as many units as you want (they would be stackable)...let's just call them HR20s to make it simple (they would not be HR20s in real life)...so if you got 4 HR20s, you would have 8 live tuners...Bmoreravens is right about conventional MRV as implemented by other companies.

I in fact am hopeful DirecTV will offer "virtual" stacking, with an option for a "whole system" scheduler that would take advantage of any tuner in the house that's available... and maybe even record a "back-up" on another unit if possible.

We've been discussing some of the pros and cons of this here (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=104052). /steve

Dr. Booda

01-31-08, 08:37 AM

boltjames

01-31-08, 08:54 AM

However, I would be interested in reading why we very well know that's true.

Because it's not on the HR20. If it were important, if it were something that all users had to have, if it were indispensible, it would be on D*'s proprietary DVR.

Considering that those that engineered the HR20 have to be power users themselves and even they left it off, well, speaks volumes.

BJ

boltjames

01-31-08, 08:58 AM

Are you for real?? That it utter nonsense. Just because you say so, doesn't make it so. :lol:

You're inside an apartment. You look through a window, down to the street. You see every car with its windshield wipers on. You see buisinesspeople with umbrellas open. You see children with their hoods up. You see puddles in the street. Do you really need to look up to the sky to confirm that it's raining?

You own a DVR. You turn it on. You notice that there is no function for DLB. The engineers who made the product didn't build it in. It was there on previous models. Every other existing feature was preserved. Scores of other new features were added. Their sales are through the roof, at an all time high. Do you really need to post on a message board to know that DLB is unimportant?

BJ

Mike Bertelson

01-31-08, 09:16 AM

This wasn't an "A" or even "B" list feature. Buried in the manual? Might as well have left it off. No average D* user even knew the feature existed.

Do I even need to tell you why we very well know that's true?

BJ

Because it's not on the HR20. If it were important, if it were something that all users had to have, if it were indispensible, it would be on D*'s proprietary DVR.

Considering that those that engineered the HR20 have to be power users themselves and even they left it off, well, speaks volumes.

BJ

That doesn't answer this question at all...
"...No average D* user even knew the feature existed.

Do I even need to tell you why we very well know that's true?"

I'm well aware of why it's not on the DVR+ platform.

I want to know why the average Directv use doesn't know the feature existed.

Mike

ATARI

01-31-08, 09:17 AM

DLB is unimportant?

BJ

Unimportant to you.

NOT unimportant to 2811 other posters (including me).

Steve

01-31-08, 09:22 AM

You're inside an apartment. You look through a window, down to the street. You see every car with its windshield wipers on. You see buisinesspeople with umbrellas open. You see children with their hoods up. You see puddles in the street. Do you really need to look up to the sky to confirm that it's raining?

You own a DVR. You turn it on. You notice that there is no function for DLB. The engineers who made the product didn't build it in. It was there on previous models. Every other existing feature was preserved. Scores of other new features were added. Their sales are through the roof, at an all time high. Do you really need to post on a message board to know that DLB is unimportant?

BJYou're not responding to the statements you've made that Todd is reacting to.

I believe he's basically questioning your earlier assertion that DirecTiVo DLBs was a hidden power-user feature that DirecTV didn't properly describe or document for the average user, or otherwise tried to keep hidden from them. You may believe this, but I sure don't. And I suspect most others would disagree with you as well. Just my .02. /steve

mikewolf13

01-31-08, 09:40 AM

Because it's not on the HR20. If it were important, if it were something that all users had to have, if it were indispensible, it would be on D*'s proprietary DVR.

Considering that those that engineered the HR20 have to be power users themselves and even they left it off, well, speaks volumes.

BJ

Under that logic, wouldn't every feature that the TIVO (or other DVR) did not have be considered unimportant?

Certainly those that engineered the TIVO were power users...and they chose not to have PIG. Or any of the dozens of other features people here seem to like.

Sometimes engineers are wrong, sometimes designs are bad...they didn't have auto-correct when the DVR+ line came out because DTV said it was a "choice" and that they didn't think the masses wanted it.....was he correct?

I believe auto-correction has been implemented in the updates (I am not a current user), so either the design "choice" was wrong or the definition of indispensible changed quickly.

Earl Bonovich

01-31-08, 09:48 AM

Certainly those that engineered the TIVO were power users...and they chose not to have PIG. Or any of the dozens of other features people here seem to like.

Not to split hairs... but the newest TiVo... the COMCAST TiVo has PIG.

Sometimes engineers are wrong, sometimes designs are bad...they didn't have auto-correct when the DVR+ line came out because DTV said it was a "choice" and that they didn't think the masses wanted it.....was he correct?

That wasn't the reason why auto-correct wasn't there.

Dr. Booda

01-31-08, 09:53 AM

Because it's not on the HR20. If it were important, if it were something that all users had to have, if it were indispensible, it would be on D*'s proprietary DVR.

Considering that those that engineered the HR20 have to be power users themselves and even they left it off, well, speaks volumes.

BJ

I certainly wasn’t a “power user” when I bought my HR10 over three years ago, unless you describe a “power user” as one that can hook up their own A/V system. I read about DLB in the HR10 manual, tried it out, and found that my wife and I really liked the feature. It enhanced live TV viewing, and when paired with a reliable DVR to record programs when we had other things to do, made the HR10 a great product. DLB enhanced a core feature of the unit: live TV viewing.

Fast forward to now with the HR2x. Features are added that make us go, huh? What does Media Share or Interactive Gaming have to do with either live TV viewing or the recording of programs? Who would want their satellite receiver/DVR to perform those tasks? DOD could be argued as enhancing the recorded program & live TV aspect of use, but the others are totally unrelated. On top of that, DLB is removed therefore de-emphasizing the importance of live TV viewing. To us, those are illogical decisions that cause us to lose respect for DirecTV.

mikewolf13

01-31-08, 10:10 AM

Not to split hairs... but the newest TiVo... the COMCAST TiVo has PIG.

That wasn't the reason why auto-correct wasn't there.

My point was that just becuase a feature is not included, does not mean it's not a valued feature. Designs improve...sometimes designs are worse...but I for one do not have faith DTV nailed all the important features and omitted only the niche ones. (And yes, I would guess the same for TIVO)

Are you calling Roman Pontual a liar? :D That is what he said..it was a "choice".

Obviously there is a reason DLB is not implemented. A reason has been given to Earl, which he can not divulge...which to me doesn't indicate that it's simply because it was "buried" in the HDVR2 manual.

Whether that reason is as inaccurate as Pontual's explanation is another matter of debate we unfortunately can't have until Earl spills his guts.

Mike Bertelson

01-31-08, 10:42 AM

I certainly wasn’t a “power user” when I bought my HR10 over three years ago, unless you describe a “power user” as one that can hook up their own A/V system. I read about DLB in the HR10 manual, tried it out, and found that my wife and I really liked the feature. It enhanced live TV viewing, and when paired with a reliable DVR to record programs when we had other things to do, made the HR10 a great product. DLB enhanced a core feature of the unit: live TV viewing.

Fast forward to now with the HR2x. Features are added that make us go, huh? What does Media Share or Interactive Gaming have to do with either live TV viewing or the recording of programs? Who would want their satellite receiver/DVR to perform those tasks? DOD could be argued as enhancing the recorded program & live TV aspect of use, but the others are totally unrelated. On top of that, DLB is removed therefore de-emphasizing the importance of live TV viewing. To us, those are illogical decisions that cause us to lose respect for DirecTV.

You raise an excellent point.

For me DLB is an enhancement of TV viewing. Not the end all to be all but a really cool convenience.

It made watching TV better.

On a different point...Being an engineer myself, I know that the engineers aren't always the ones making the choices as to what goes into a product. Functionality sometimes takes a back seat to other considerations.

Mike

Earl Bonovich

01-31-08, 10:58 AM

My point was that just becuase a feature is not included, does not mean it's not a valued feature. Designs improve...sometimes designs are worse...but I for one do not have faith DTV nailed all the important features and omitted only the niche ones. (And yes, I would guess the same for TIVO)

Are you calling Roman Pontual a liar? :D That is what he said..it was a "choice".

Obviously there is a reason DLB is not implemented. A reason has been given to Earl, which he can not divulge...which to me doesn't indicate that it's simply because it was "buried" in the HDVR2 manual.

Whether that reason is as inaccurate as Pontual's explanation is another matter of debate we unfortunately can't have until Earl spills his guts.

Okay... so then it was a choice on their part not to have auto-correct.
I was under the impression it had a lot more to do with the TiVo patents on the auto-correction technology... and analysis of the patents, and developing a new way of doing the same end function, while not infringing on the patents (or determining the pathents didn't have merit)... or what ever.

As for the DLB theory, being that it was an accident or buried in a manual.
That definently has nothing to do with DLB not being on the DVR+ platform.
And I have to giggle each time I see that as a theory on why it is not there.

mikewolf13

01-31-08, 11:03 AM

Okay... so then it was a choice on their part not to have auto-correct.
I was under the impression it had a lot more to do with the TiVo patents on the auto-correction technology... and analysis of the patents, and developing a new way of doing the same end function, while not infringing on the patents (or determining the pathents didn't have merit)... or what ever.

As for the DLB theory, being that it was an accident or buried in a manual.
That definently has nothing to do with DLB not being on the DVR+ platform.
And I have to giggle each time I see that as a theory on why it is not there.

I agree with your answer and not Roman's....

You shouldn't keep things inside..it's not healthy.... Share and and we'll giggle along..

danor

01-31-08, 11:44 AM

You're not responding to the statements you've made that Todd is reacting to.

I believe he's basically questioning your earlier assertion that DirecTiVo DLBs was a hidden power-user feature that DirecTV didn't properly describe or document for the average user, or otherwise tried to keep hidden from them. You may believe this, but I sure don't. And I suspect most others would disagree with you as well. Just my .02. /steve
I absolutely agree with you Steve.
I typically only skim user manuals unless I have an issue requiring that I read portions of it.
I figured out the DLB process very quickly. It was so incredibly intuitive that it more or less fell in my lap.
You can also add me to the long list of loyal *D customers who truly lament it's demise.

ToddinVA

01-31-08, 12:51 PM

Every other existing feature was preserved.
BJ
Uh, the HR20 most certainly did not preserve every other feature TiVo has. Take TiVo Suggestions for instance. They aren't there and I like them very much and I will miss them if ever fully go away from TiVo. However, no one's whining about it because it wasn't quite as popular as DLB and we know it's patented by TiVo and will never come to DirecTV again.

BTW, this thread is getting too bogged down with TiVo DLB comparisons. The fact is that almost every other dual tuner DVR has DLB! It's not just former TiVo users who miss it.

ToddinVA

01-31-08, 12:55 PM

Scores of other new features were added. Their sales are through the roof, at an all time high. Do you really need to post on a message board to know that DLB is unimportant?

BJ

I don't know what the difference in actual sales is, but there are several reasons that many people have gotten the DVR+ boxes, most of which have nothing to do with not wanting features that were in TiVo:

- TiVo's are no longer available, so we have no choice in the matter anyway.
- You have to have the new boxes to get the new HD channels.
- DirecTV brought down the price and gave many of them away for little or no money.
- These are the boxes they have been pushing to everyone for awhile.

Dr. Booda

01-31-08, 01:36 PM

On a different point...Being an engineer myself, I know that the engineers aren't always the ones making the choices as to what goes into a product. Functionality sometimes takes a back seat to other considerations.

I'm in Product Engineering Management, and you are absolutely correct about Engineers and the choices that are made. The HR2x series IMHO appears to have had much more Marketing influence interjected than Engineering. Unfortunately, sometimes the balance between the two gets way out of whack and then strange things happen. Common sense decision making becomes secondary, unless very strong leadership is present. I never blame the Engineers, only Management. There are plenty of great Engineers, and very few great Managers.

Drew2k

01-31-08, 06:17 PM

the setup I'm talking about is something that was discussed extensively...it's been a while since I checked on its progress...maybe it's not called MRV...but it's not a figment of my imagination...or is it?I think you are describing the "home media center"?

anubys

02-01-08, 05:17 AM

I think you are describing the "home media center"?

I think so...I don't pay close enough attention and all these things sound the same to me...there was a lot of talk of this being the next best thing and really, it's the optimal setup...all the lines from the dish go to a central location, you get to use the SWM with only one cable running to each TV, and you get access to all the tuners and a massive hard drive (or more if you stack the units)...it's a breeze for an installer since there would be no cable runs needed for most homes and the noisy hard drives would be in some closet out of the way...

heck, the only thing that would make it even better if there's no cable run at all and it's wireless :D

ToddinVA

02-01-08, 06:40 AM

What the heck ever happened to the home media center anyway?? We could have several buffers going at the same time with that puppy! :D

Monduj1

02-01-08, 08:55 AM

I'm an engineer too and have had the (mis)fortune of working on the business side. I've seen too many examples of development engineers skirting common sense for the sake of simplicity. I've heard "It wasn't documented in the requirements" used as an excuse more than I want to remember. The requirements shouldn't have to spell out everything to the Nth detail (eg, R1 - Product should not kill operator when power button is depressed - duh!). That said, I'll still trust the engineer over the marketing guy on most days. :lol:

I think it's fair to say at this point that BJ has little credibility on this particular topic. He's allowed his emotions to cloud his judgement on the facts. I appreciate his opinion, as he has every right to not care at all about DLB, much the same that a substantial number of us have the right to care very deeply for it. The fact that this thread is still active after all this time indicates to me that DLB is important. BTW, it's a very frequent topic on DirecTV's own forum as well. And it's not just people who migrated from H10s to H2*'s that are complaining either. I have an R10 and a Philips DSR708 (replaced another R10 that died), both of which support DLB. My move to HD with DirecTV is on hold due to the lack of DLB, as is my continued suffering of reboots on my DSR708 since the R15 "replacement" also lacks DLB.

I also share the comments of several others, that I could care less about non-DVR related features in my DVR. Game Lounge? I have a PS2 and a home PC. I am not a "power user". I did not stumble upon the DLB feature, I found it in the owner's manual. And I want it back. If DirecTV won't provide it in their models, my next purchase will not be from DirecTV. Simple as that. To me it's that important. All the competition will have abundant HD programming in the near future. I can certainly wait until that time to make the switch. I get my locals in HD via OTA in the meantime.

I continue to hold out hope for DirecTV. I WANT them to come around and offer DLB. I prefer their programming format to both DISH and ComCast. But it's still dumbfounding to me as an engineer how this feature/functionality continues to be omitted. This has to be a very simple software change.

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 09:00 AM

I'm an engineer too
..................
This has to be a very simple software change.

As an engineer, you must know that is absolutely the most dangerous assumption to make.

Mike Bertelson

02-01-08, 09:08 AM

sinp
This has to be a very simple software change.

You may be right, it may be a simple software change.

How will that software change effect current or future/planned features?

IMHO, it just isn't that simple.

I miss it...occasionally I miss it alot...but I like my HD more...

Mike

Doug Brott

02-01-08, 09:24 AM

As an engineer, you must know that is absolutely the most dangerous assumption to make.

:lol: .. oh so true .. So many times I've gone in blazing thinking it will take "just 5 minutes." .. oops! :lol:

The older I get, though, the more I don't do that :)

Stuart Sweet

02-01-08, 09:28 AM

I'm not an engineer and generally when I sit down to change something I either break something else or it takes 4 times as long anyway.

afrosales

02-01-08, 09:44 AM

I suggest you go through the guide for the next week and tell the unit to record anything you might be interested in. The sit down and watch what you've recorded and if you don't like it you can erase it and move on to the next show. All you would be doing is time shifting when you are searching vs. when you are watching, and everyone will be happy. Plus, maybe you'll find something to watch that is normally on at a time frame when your never in front of the TV. Especially with the writers strike, I can't handle watching any live tv.. I don't know how you do it!!!!:nono2:

Morning news/weather and evening sports recap. No way you can record those and watch later. That accounts for 75% of my family's TV viewing, and not having DLB at those times is excruciatingly painful (emotionally, not physically).

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 09:50 AM

Morning news/weather and evening sports recap. No way you can record those and watch later. That accounts for 75% of my family's TV viewing, and not having DLB at those times is excruciatingly painful (emotionally, not physically).

Sure you can... I record my evening news every day... and usually don't watch it till at least an hour if not more after it aired.

afrosales

02-01-08, 10:09 AM

Sure you can... I record my evening news every day... and usually don't watch it till at least an hour if not more after it aired.

Touche. I guess it all depends on when you watch TV and when you go to bed.

The bottom line is that in an effort to increase my TV viewing enjoyment (going to more HD with the HR21) I have actually reduced it (by having to change my viewing habits). Maybe I should just go back to 4:3 and my T-60... oh, I forgot, D* will not give me my money back for the HR21 which is why I joined this whine and cheese club in the first place.

raott

02-01-08, 10:15 AM

Sure you can... I record my evening news every day... and usually don't watch it till at least an hour if not more after it aired.

Sure its possible - but its a heck of alot less convenient.

MikeR7

02-01-08, 10:27 AM

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 10:35 AM

Sure its possible - but its a heck of alot less convenient.

Been doing it that way for over 8 years... and find it a LOT more convient then making sure I am near a TV at 10pm every night.

James Long

02-01-08, 10:42 AM

Sure you can... I record my evening news every day... and usually don't watch it till at least an hour if not more after it aired.Ditto ... 6pm-7pm news and 11pm news are recorded nightly. Even though I usually watch the 11pm live, I don't miss the news unless I decide not to watch. Sometimes I'll watch it the next day.

Mike Bertelson

02-01-08, 11:51 AM

Morning news/weather and evening sports recap. No way you can record those and watch later. That accounts for 75% of my family's TV viewing, and not having DLB at those times is excruciatingly painful (emotionally, not physically).

Wow that's a large portion of your viewing time devoted to news. :eek2:

I'd say it about 5% of our viewing time.

Although, I record the morning/evening news everyday.

I miss DLB for other reasons...general viewing

Mike

Monduj1

02-01-08, 12:08 PM

As an engineer, you must know that is absolutely the most dangerous assumption to make.

Sure, for a brand new, never developed feature. But you're forgetting the fact that this feature EXISTED before in the H10!

You are correct that sometimes what appear to be "easy" software changes can turn out to be incredibly complex. I guess DirecTV's engineers are just plain stupid then, since Motorola, Tivo, and just about every other DVR provider has figured it out.

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 12:18 PM

Sure, for a brand new, never developed feature. But you're forgetting the fact that this feature EXISTED before in the H10!

On a COMPLETE different software/hardware platform....
And it was the HR10 to be technically correct... the H10 is not a DVR

You are correct that sometimes what appear to be "easy" software changes can turn out to be incredibly complex. I guess DirecTV's engineers are just plain stupid then, since Motorola, Tivo, and just about every other DVR provider has figured it out.

Where did I say they couldn't figure it out? or anyone?

Again... this is not a decision necessarily by the engineers or the programmers or the technical team. This is a decision by DirecTV as a whole, that has DECIDED not to have the DLB function in their DLB+ platform.

havlicek

02-01-08, 12:38 PM

This is a decision by DirecTV as a whole, that has DECIDED not to have the DLB function in their DLB+ platform.
Is directv aware and/or concerned that their HD DVR is soon to be (if not already) the only one in the market not to include this functionality?

Monduj1

02-01-08, 12:39 PM

On a COMPLETE different software/hardware platform....
And it was the HR10 to be technically correct... the H10 is not a DVR

Mea culpa, it is the HR10. And while the HR10 was a different software/hardware platform, my point was that they had figured it out once, so it should be relatively easy to figure out again.

Where did I say they couldn't figure it out? or anyone?

Again... this is not a decision necessarily by the engineers or the programmers or the technical team. This is a decision by DirecTV as a whole, that has DECIDED not to have the DLB function in their DLB+ platform.

Understood. We need a renegade engineer to put it back in without being instructed to, like an Easter Egg.

Doug Brott

02-01-08, 01:18 PM

Mea culpa, it is the HR10. And while the HR10 was a different software/hardware platform, my point was that they had figured it out once, so it should be relatively easy to figure out again.

It looks that way, but if you read the fine print, TiVo was contracted to build the HR10 for DIRECTV. I doubt TiVo handed the secret sauce over to DIRECTV once the relationship changed.

SteelersFan_in_CA

02-01-08, 01:18 PM

...not to have the DLB function in their DLB+ platform.Looks like Earl has DLB engrained in his brain.:lol: ;)

Doug Brott

02-01-08, 01:21 PM

Looks like Earl has DLB engrained in his brain.:lol: ;)

I noticed that as well, but we all know he meant to say DVR+ :grin:

SteelersFan_in_CA

02-01-08, 01:23 PM

I noticed that as well, but we all know he meant to say DVR+ :grin:Riiiiiight!:lol:

sunking

02-01-08, 01:42 PM

Been doing it that way for over 8 years... and find it a LOT more convient then making sure I am near a TV at 10pm every night.
And I find it a lot more convenient to watch the 11:00 news when it's on so I can go to bed as soon as I see the story that peaked my interest. Of course you don't know when in the half hour that will be so want to flip between it and the Daily Show conveniently. For me, neither show is worth recording, no matter how easy it is to clean up afterwards. DLBs worked perfectly for this. I've also been 'saved' countless times on things that I wanted to record but simply forgot to only to find that channel was already on the other tuner and being buffered . Flip to it, hit record, and the whole thing was there (of course this has also burned be by inadvertently changing a buffered show to another channel). Not to mention a snowy morning trying to wait for the school closings to scroll across the bottom. I'm busy getting ready, not focusing on the TV and want to do some channel surfing while getting ready and watching a different place for the closings.

I personally still watch most of my evening TV while it's on simply because I want to go to bed when it's over and really don't feel like recording everything I watch. My life isn't so hectic at home that I can't occupy myself with reading or crossword puzzles or brush the dog, or more often than not channel surf while a commercial is on. Yah I time shift, but I don't think that is 100% what the DVR is about. It is about enhancing the TV experience in general, and DLB is a big part of that.

Point being, for every scenario you come up with where you have a workaround I'll be able to come up with how it's a hinderence or doesn't fit my lifestyle. Just like Peanut Butter and Pea Soup, you eat what you like, I'll eat what I like.

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 01:58 PM

Point being, for every scenario you come up with where you have a workaround I'll be able to come up with how it's a hinderence or doesn't fit my lifestyle. Just like Peanut Butter and Pea Soup, you eat what you like, I'll eat what I like.

And exactly the point that there will never be a DVR that is 100% perfect for 100% of the population.

There will also be a scenerio that can't be done, or won't be done... ect.

Dr. Booda

02-01-08, 02:09 PM

Been doing it that way for over 8 years... and find it a LOT more convient then making sure I am near a TV at 10pm every night.

Although, I record the morning/evening news everyday.

Earl & Mike,

This is a little off topic, and no offense, but why the heck are you recording the late news? What else do you have to do at 10 PM, work? Unless you're watching sports events, I don't get it.

The next morning the news is old, so there’s new news to watch live. I agree with Sunking that DLB during the morning news is invaluable when I'm trying to get the kids out the door to school and want to catch the Sportscenter highlights. Recording those events to watch later doesn't work as both are out of date and replaced with new versions.

Regardless, I do agree that everyone uses the HR2x series differently, but those that do watch more live TV than not really miss DLB.

Rich

02-01-08, 02:16 PM

And exactly the point that there will never be a DVR that is 100% perfect for 100% of the population.

There will also be a scenerio that can't be done, or won't be done... ect.

I'm amazed you still have this thread running, Earl.

I tried the DLBs on a TiVo a couple times during the football season and it's easier to record both games and watch a recorded show for an hour or so and then watch the games.

I've been doing it this way (recording on both tuners) since Ultimate TV (did they have dual tuners?) and I don't get the obsession with DLBs. Recording is simpler. Simpler is better.

Rich

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 02:17 PM

Earl & Mike,

This is a little off topic, and no offense, but why the heck are you recording the late news? What else do you have to do at 10 PM, work? Unless you're watching sports events, I don't get it.

Honestly...

They way our schedule is, with events with my son & family...

We often don't get to sit down to watch TV until 9pm (central).
We usually try to watch at least two shows, if not more.

Then when we get up stairs to go to bed, it is on average after 11pm.

We watch the news, using trickplay to skip over the stories that we are not intrested in... then end up watching a Modern Marval (or similar show), until we both crash out.

Most it is for the Weather forcast, and sports round up...
But since we are no where near a TV during the 5pm - 7pm news airings, kinda recaps the days events as well.

Dr. Booda

02-01-08, 02:22 PM

And exactly the point that there will never be a DVR that is 100% perfect for 100% of the population.

Wasn't the HR10 perfect for quite a while? Perfect for recording from two tuners; perfect for watching live TV via two DLB capable tuners. Or did I miss the outcry from all of those disenfranchised Media Share, Interactive Gaming, and DOD users out there over the last three years? The only thing about the HR10 that wasn’t perfect was it’s MP4 processing capability.

Dr. Booda

02-01-08, 02:25 PM

Honestly...

They way our schedule is, with events with my son & family...

We often don't get to sit down to watch TV until 9pm (central).
We usually try to watch at least two shows, if not more.

Then when we get up stairs to go to bed, it is on average after 11pm.

We watch the news, using trickplay to skip over the stories that we are not intrested in... then end up watching a Modern Marval (or similar show), until we both crash out.

Most it is for the Weather forcast, and sports round up...
But since we are no where near a TV during the 5pm - 7pm news airings, kinda recaps the days events as well.

You're fairly close to my existence, but if I'm going to crash out, I’d like to do it to something like the news. Remembering the weather or sports recaps is easier at that time of night instead of something like a drama series that could possibly require some mental focus. :)

Rich

02-01-08, 02:29 PM

Regardless, I do agree that everyone uses the HR2x series differently, but those that do watch more live TV than not really miss DLB.

That probably explains why I never used the DLBs. I never considered that. I never watch live TV. Haven't since about '88, had 12 VCRs at my peak and then discovered Ultimate TV's DVR.

Well, you inadvertently answered a question that has plagued me for about a year. Thanx. I can't tell you how happy I am.

Thanx again,
Rich

Mike Bertelson

02-01-08, 02:30 PM

Earl & Mike,

This is a little off topic, and no offense, but why the heck are you recording the late news? What else do you have to do at 10 PM, work? Unless you're watching sports events, I don't get it.

The next morning the news is old, so there’s new news to watch live. I agree with Sunking that DLB during the morning news is invaluable when I'm trying to get the kids out the door to school and want to catch the Sportscenter highlights. Recording those events to watch later doesn't work as both are out of date and replaced with new versions.

Regardless, I do agree that everyone uses the HR2x series differently, but those that do watch more live TV than not really miss DLB.

By evening I meant 5-6pm.

I rarely watch the late news.

I scan the news items and get weather/sports before I go to work from the morning news (5am).

Mike

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 02:32 PM

dennisj00

02-01-08, 02:39 PM

Obviously the last couple of pages show that few people use a DVR exactly like anyone else.

I think a simple down-arrow to switch between tuners - even if the second didn't have a 90 minute buffer would give more flexibility and usefulness than NO access to the second tuner. Far more useful to TV viewing than the Game Lounge or the Active Channels that you can die waiting on.

I don't understand why we aren't supposed to watch live tv with a HR-20. I don't record everything because I'm usually running around 90% full and don't want to risk automatic deletes - or mark everything to keep.

Perhaps we could rename DVR to DUAL VIDEO RECEIVER??

I haven't heard any response to my challenge for a workaround to see the second tuner without involving record.

Dr. Booda

02-01-08, 02:40 PM

That probably explains why I never used the DLBs. I never considered that. I never watch live TV. Haven't since about '88, had 12 VCRs at my peak and then discovered Ultimate TV's DVR.

Well, you inadvertently answered a question that has plagued me for about a year. Thanx. I can't tell you how happy I am.

Thanx again,
Rich

Rich,

Never watch live TV? I can understand recording some shows, but never? No current event content or mindless surfing? No checking out the business reports or election coverage? Wow, you've got more discipline than my family. Congrats.

jheda

02-01-08, 02:45 PM

As Earl has said along with most others, "better" is an opinion. Moreover, many will argue that DLB is "simpler"

Im fine personally with SLB as it functions now; but i understand the continued push for DLB and respect it.

I've been doing it this way (recording on both tuners) since Ultimate TV (did they have dual tuners?) and I don't get the obsession with DLBs. Recording is simpler. Simpler is better.

Rich

Dr. Booda

02-01-08, 02:47 PM

The HR10 has never been perfect. And I have gone through three of them.
And it still isn't "perfect" today.

Actually there were plenty of people that wanted more features on the HR10... and those that have gone the path of hacking them to get them in there.

What features were hacked? Media Share, Interactive Gaming, and DOD? Didn’t the HR10 record programs and allow enhanced live TV viewing via DLB? Wasn't that its core function? I know the software wasn’t perfect, but didn’t it do what it was supposed to?

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 02:47 PM

Rich

02-01-08, 02:47 PM

Wasn't the HR10 perfect for quite a while? Perfect for recording from two tuners; perfect for watching live TV via two DLB capable tuners. Or did I miss the outcry from all of those disenfranchised Media Share, Interactive Gaming, and DOD users out there over the last three years? The only thing about the HR10 that wasn’t perfect was it’s MP4 processing capability.

I doubt if D* could lease a TiVo. Think of how many leased DVRs there are on D*s books. That affects the bottom line immensely for them. Now they get to play all the accounting games that accountants do with leased property. My wife's an accountant and she explained the advantages of leasing property to me. Understood enough to understand why D* decided to go that way. Seems like a good business decision to me.

I do agree with you about the HR10 in some respects, but I want large HDs and the cost of upgrading an HR10 to 750 Gigs was a whole lot higher than a 750 Gig eSATA for the HR20/21s.

I'm amazed every time I say this, but I really like the HR20-700 and the new HR21-700 I just got seems like a quicker version. After what I went thru last year...well, I'm still with them and I like them. Last year at this time, I would have never thought D* could bring the DVR this far in such a relatively short amount of time.

Rich

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 02:49 PM

What features were hacked? Media Share, Interactive Gaming, and DOD? Didn’t the HR10 record programs and allow enhanced live TV viewing via DLB? Wasn't that its core function? I know the software wasn’t perfect, but didn’t it do what it was supposed to?

There are hacks to add similar things to Media Share.
There are also hacks to add MRV, Caller ID, Remote Booking, Undelete, Bulk Delete, Space Monitor, ect.... there are dozens of hacks actually.

As for Interactive Gaming... not sure if I have seen one to do that..
But Dod... no there isn't one for that, but that service didn't exist on the DirecTV platform till now...

But there was plenty of clamoring for said feature, from converts from services that did have DoD.

Tom Robertson

02-01-08, 02:50 PM

jheda

02-01-08, 02:51 PM

Soi am guessing from your avatar you watch only yankee games that reggie jackson played in? :lol: :lol: That probably explains why I never used the DLBs. I never considered that. I never watch live TV. Haven't since about '88, had 12 VCRs at my peak and then discovered Ultimate TV's DVR.

Well, you inadvertently answered a question that has plagued me for about a year. Thanx. I can't tell you how happy I am.

Thanx again,
Rich

Dr. Booda

02-01-08, 02:53 PM

I doubt if D* could lease a TiVo. Think of how many leased DVRs there are on D*s books. That affects the bottom line immensely for them. Now they get to play all the accounting games that accountants do with leased property. My wife's an accountant and she explained the advantages of leasing property to me. Understood enough to understand why D* decided to go that way. Seems like a good business decision to me.

Rich

I agree with you about the accounting games and leased property. It's a lot easier to manipulate the bottom line for the street.

For the way you use your unit, I understand why the HR2x is great for you. I just wish that they could have not reduced other users’ capabilities while enhancing storage options, etc.

jheda

02-01-08, 02:55 PM

Tibber, what be swing searches?Perfect is in the eye of the remote control beholder. The HR10 was very good as a basic HD DVR, but many of the best features could not be activated like a normal TiVO and/or would cost too much, IMHO.

The HR20 has been moving forward while the Tivo line has somewhat stalled. (Yes, they have finally finished the S3 with swing searches; that sounds cool.)

Cheers,
Tom

Dr. Booda

02-01-08, 02:57 PM

Perfect is in the eye of the remote control beholder. The HR10 was very good as a basic HD DVR, but many of the best features could not be activated like a normal TiVO and/or would cost too much, IMHO.

The HR20 has been moving forward while the Tivo line has somewhat stalled. (Yes, they have finally finished the S3 with swing searches; that sounds cool.)

Cheers,
Tom

True, but from the point of view of a HR10 owner that isn’t a “power user”, I did find the thing almost perfect. I wasn’t aware of the other normal TiVo features that you mentioned, I just liked the recording and live TV capabilities.

Tom Robertson

02-01-08, 02:58 PM

As I understand it, you start a normal search and bring up a item from the results. While perusing the information on that item, you can highlight an actor or director, press click and get search results that include other things from that actor or director.

I'm not sure how many other different categories you can swing on.

Cheers,
Tom

Tom Robertson

02-01-08, 03:00 PM

True, but from the point of view of a HR10 owner that isn’t a “power user”, I did find the thing almost perfect. I wasn’t aware of the other normal TiVo features that you mentioned, I just liked the recording and live TV capabilities.
I can completely understand that point of view. :) Thems is very important features too.

Cheers,
Tom

JBernardK

02-01-08, 03:02 PM

I do agree with you about the HR10 in some respects, but I want large HDs and the cost of upgrading an HR10 to 750 Gigs was a whole lot higher than a 750 Gig eSATA for the HR20/21s.

Rich

How do you get that? In both cases you have to buy a 750 Gb drive. Wit the HR20 you also need a ESATA enclosure. sounds like it cost more with the HR20. In fact, with the HR10 you could actually buy a 500 Gb drive because TiVo figured out to how to use both drives together and D* has not.

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 03:04 PM

How do you get that? In both cases you have to buy a 750 Gb drive. Wit the HR20 you also need a ESATA enclosure. sounds like it cost more with the HR20. In fact, with the HR10 you could actually buy a 500 Gb drive because TiVo figured out to how to use both drives together and D* has not.

Most likely, he is a user that is not one to do the upgrade himself... (aka going the path of using the PC to do all the upgrade steps with the linux CD's)... and wanted to buy the 750gb drive pre-setup from places like DVRUpgrade and Weakness.

With the HR10, you would also have to by the power splitter (which delays the startup of the second drive on the power supply), and the mounting bracket as natively ... the HR10 didn't support a second drive physically.

Where on the HR20... purchase an eSATA drive (With enclosure)... Connect, power up... restart the HR2*... done.

Rich

02-01-08, 03:05 PM

Rich, Never watch live TV?

I don't. My son doesn't. My wife does once in a while.

I can understand recording some shows, but never?

Not intentionally. I do get a kick out of commercials when I go to someone's home and they have live TV.

No current event content

Nope.

or mindless surfing?

Nope, last time I did it at someone's house, I ended up watching a bass fishing show. Saw a lot of spiffy bass boats.

No checking out the business reports or election coverage?

Nope. Use a computer for things like that.

Wow, you've got more discipline than my family.

Doubt that. Wife and son spend money like crazy and I try my best to keep up.

Oh, I read a couple newspapers everyday too. Been reading the New York Daily News since I was a wee tot and I get the local paper everyday and visit both paper's websites a couple times a day.

Rich

JBernardK

02-01-08, 03:06 PM

The HR20 has been moving forward while the Tivo line has somewhat stalled. (Yes, they have finally finished the S3 with swing searches; that sounds cool.)

Cheers,
Tom

The TiVo line (S3) has MRV, remote booking, TiVo to go, DLB, etc. How has the HR20 been moving forward--they don't have a lot of these things yet and many of the things they do have don't work very well.

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 03:09 PM

The TiVo line (S3) has MRV, remote booking, TiVo to go, DLB, etc. How has the HR20 been moving forward--they don't have a lot of these things yet and many of the things they do have don't work very well.

Should we turn this into a comparison of what the TiVo series has and what the HR2* series has? We have only done that how many times...

There are several features that both platforms have, that the other doesn't.

(Oh and the HR20 does have remote booking).

And I will argue with you on "things that do have don't work very well", but that is not for this thread.

Dr. Booda

02-01-08, 03:11 PM

I don't. My son doesn't. My wife does once in a while.

Not intentionally. I do get a kick out of commercials when I go to someone's home and they have live TV.

Nope.

Nope, last time I did it at someone's house, I ended up watching a bass fishing show. Saw a lot of spiffy bass boats.

Nope. Use a computer for things like that.

Doubt that. Wife and son spend money like crazy and I try my best to keep up.

Oh, I read a couple newspapers everyday too. Been reading the New York Daily News since I was a wee tot and I get the local paper everyday and visit both paper's websites a couple times a day.

Rich

Are you at least going to watch the Super Bowl? :)

Rich

02-01-08, 03:14 PM

Soi am guessing from your avatar you watch only yankee games that reggie jackson played in? :lol: :lol:

I watch every Yankees game the following morning. I love getting up in the morning and watching a baseball game. Then I go to a baseball field and hit baseballs and listen to the sports talk shows critique the game I just watched. Life is good. :icon_kiff

Rich

Rich

02-01-08, 03:18 PM

The HR20 has been moving forward while the Tivo line has somewhat stalled. (Yes, they have finally finished the S3 with swing searches; that sounds cool.)

Have you read about the problems with the Series 3 TiVos? Same as Series 2 TiVos.

Rich

Rich

02-01-08, 03:23 PM

For the way you use your unit, I understand why the HR2x is great for you. I just wish that they could have not reduced other users’ capabilities while enhancing storage options, etc.

I never had an HR10, so I'm not really comfortable comparing it to the HR20/21s. I don't really understand what's missing.

Rich

Tom Robertson

02-01-08, 03:25 PM

The TiVo line (S3) has MRV, remote booking, TiVo to go, DLB, etc. How has the HR20 been moving forward--they don't have a lot of these things yet and many of the things they do have don't work very well.
The S2 line had all these features 4-5 years ago. Aside from Swing, nothing new. And the S3 line took relatively forever to launch in Consumer Electronics terms. That was my point.

Back to DLBs, I miss them. From time to time, I ask DIRECTV to figure out a way to put them in. Fortunately they don't get too offended that I keep asking. And I do agree the other features they are working on will be way cool too. ;)

Cheers,
Tom

Rich

02-01-08, 03:27 PM

Rich

02-01-08, 03:29 PM

Are you at least going to watch the Super Bowl? :)

The next morning.

Rich

Rich

02-01-08, 03:32 PM

How do you get that? In both cases you have to buy a 750 Gb drive. Wit the HR20 you also need a ESATA enclosure.

You can buy the eSATAs in a desktop plug in model. In an enclosure.

Rich

Rich

02-01-08, 03:37 PM

Most likely, he is a user that is not one to do the upgrade himself... (aka going the path of using the PC to do all the upgrade steps with the linux CD's)... and wanted to buy the 750gb drive pre-setup from places like DVRUpgrade and Weakness.

I use the Seagate Free Agent Pro 750 eSATAs. $199 at most.

Rich

Doug Brott

02-01-08, 03:43 PM

raott

02-01-08, 03:48 PM

Been doing it that way for over 8 years... and find it a LOT more convient then making sure I am near a TV at 10pm every night.

As has been stated many times, people do not watch TV the same way.

Earl Bonovich

02-01-08, 03:49 PM

As has been stated many times, people do not watch TV the same way.

And that is the point... I have made that point time and time and time and time and time again....

You pointed out one way of viewing it... I pointed out another, someone else pointed out another...

The chances are likely that every single one of us, uses our DVR/Viewing in different ways.

Just because one person watches and uses it one way... doesn't mean the majority or everyone does...

henryld

02-01-08, 03:55 PM

And that is the point... I have made that point time and time and time and time and time again....

You pointed out one way of viewing it... I pointed out another, someone else pointed out another...

The chances are likely that every single one of us, uses our DVR/Viewing in different ways.

Just because one person watches and uses it one way... doesn't mean the majority or everyone does...
Agreed and the lack of DLB's prevents me from watching TV the way I like.

woj027

02-01-08, 04:04 PM

When I had DLB on the DirecTV Tivo DVR I loved it. I miss it now, but I'm not going to trade in MPEG-4, or DOD (beta), or OTA (HR20) for it. And I'm definitely not jumping over to Dish or Comcast because of the lack of DLB on my HR20.

I just hope that all of this talk about DLB (I can't call it a debate) moves DLB up the Wish List and DLB shows up on my HR20 someday. I would pay the extra money to get a new and improved HR22 (making that model up) if it had everything my HR20 has (esp. OTA) and DLB.

Until then, I read this thread and hope (the dream, the anticipation, the longing) for the day that Earl posts "DirecTV has decided to add DLB to the features available on it's DVR's” but I think the odds are about as good as the Cubs winning the World Series. But then again "Wait Till Next Year"

Dr. Booda

02-01-08, 04:33 PM

Last night I watched the Minnesota-Michigan basketball game on a recorded buffer very close to live and the 7-8 Lost recap epsisode at the same time on the live buffer, switching back and forth with the prv ch button. Works just as good or better than DLB as far as I am concerned. (I am on the latest CE software version). I honestly don't see what the fuss is about anymore. :lol:

I could probably get used to the DLB work around, but there is no way my wife ever will. Unless it's a simple one button push, the memory of how DLB worked on the HR10 will surface with nasty consequences. Maybe I need to get the protection plan to cover those outbursts. :rolleyes:

SteelersFan_in_CA

02-01-08, 04:44 PM

Agreed and the lack of DLB's prevents me from watching TV the way I like. And THOUSANDS of others!

DTV, Please give us DLB!:)

Should we form a petition like we did for MRV/HMO a few years ago on TCF? That really got DTV to move quickly.:rolleyes:

boltjames

02-02-08, 07:42 AM

And THOUSANDS of others!

DTV, Please give us DLB!:)

Should we form a petition like we did for MRV/HMO a few years ago on TCF? That really got DTV to move quickly.:rolleyes:

There will be no DLB because there are far more subscribers out there who don't care about it than those who do.

Shoot not the messenger.

BJ

Earl Bonovich

02-02-08, 08:07 AM

There will be no DLB because there are far more subscribers out there who don't care about it than those who do.

Shoot not the messenger.

BJ

You have ABSOLUTELY no data to back that up...

Rich

02-02-08, 12:40 PM

I could probably get used to the DLB work around, but there is no way my wife ever will. Unless it's a simple one button push, the memory of how DLB worked on the HR10 will surface with nasty consequences. Maybe I need to get the protection plan to cover those outbursts. :rolleyes:

You guys are suffering from a "paradigm". Texas Instruments almost went out of business years ago because they were convinced that LED technology was the way to go with watches, calculators, etc. Remember the watches with the blank faces that you had to push a button on to see the time? That was one of the prime examples of a movie that was made for industry to get people who were hung up on one technology to switch to a better technology, for example, LCD watches and calculators. Very effective short movie.

Rich

skimmilk

02-02-08, 12:53 PM

I know a lot of talk on this thread and others are comparing Tivos and HR2xs. Frankly, I don't miss much outside of DLB of my Tivo and even if I did, its neither here nor there with regards to DLB. However, this sort of issue has plagued me since the early days of cable. To explain this, most old cable boxes used to be able to flash back between two channel ranges. So I might tune to ESPN which happens to be close to NESN and use +/- to flip between the two. By pressing PREV, I could jump over to say HBO and use +/- to swap between it and SHO without losing a handle on the sports networks (just press PREV). Frankly, this is more important to me than actually pausing or rewinding anything. With so many channels out there, I can't even commit to one for any length of time. Some newer cable boxes didn't support this feature, and in turn I stuck with basic cable (which doesn't need a box) even though the cable boxes offered some nice features like guides and so forth.

While I won't switch away from DTV just for DLB, I am certainly going to not subscribe to any more sports packages. Its just impossible to commit to one game as the anchor during March Madness when there are 4 games set to conclude virtually simultaneously. Nor can my DVR detect to stop recording when my fantasy pitcher shuts it down in the 6th and start recording a Sox blowout turned extra inning nailbiter. Its a waste of money for me and a missed cash flow for DTV to be stuck to 1.5 channels.

skimmilk

02-02-08, 01:04 PM

You guys are suffering from a "paradigm". Texas Instruments almost went out of business years ago because they were convinced that LED technology was the way to go with watches, calculators, etc. Remember the watches with the blank faces that you had to push a button on to see the time? That was one of the prime examples of a movie that was made for industry to get people who were hung up on one technology to switch to a better technology, for example, LCD watches and calculators. Very effective short movie.

Rich

Ok. That implies that there is some alternate better than DLB out there. There is not. The presence of DLB does not prevent users from operating their DVR identically to the way the HR2xs does so now. DLB just takes the unused tuner and lets it do something instead of nothing.

jgriffin7

02-02-08, 01:28 PM

You most certainly can watch live TV with an HR2*...
The debate is trying to watch 2 live events on the HR2*...

Why there is no response to your challenge... is you can't...
If you must retain your "position" in the first live program... then you have no other choice then to record it, if you want to change the channel.

For clarity, my position is not so much trying to watch 2 live events, as is the frustration know that the other tuner is buffering, but it's flushed if I try to switch to it by keying in the channel number. My take is that the HR20 has DLB, in that it is always buffering live on two tuners. It's the switching between the two that doesn't work. So if I know what channel the other tuner is on, I know I can begin recording on it via the Guide, but I can't switch to it otherwise. If I don't know what channel the other tuner is on, I'm out of luck. Could be it's got up to 90 minutes of something good I could record, just no way for me to find out.

It's not just live viewing that's the problem, it's not begin able to know if the other tuner has something buffered I might be interested in (because it flushes it!)

boltjames

02-02-08, 03:00 PM

You have ABSOLUTELY no data to back that up...

The HR20 does not make toast because there are more subscribers that don't want it to make toast than there are those that do.

While there is no data to support this claim, common sense prevails. No different than DLB. We've seen products recalled over customer disatisfaction, we've seen boycotts, we've seen CEO's with retractions, we've seen stock prices tumble. Nothing like that going on with the HR20 and DLB. Apathy. That's what's got DLB removed from D*'s radar. They don't care, subscribers don't care, non issue.

BJ

Mike Bertelson

02-02-08, 03:30 PM

The HR20 does not make toast because there are more subscribers that don't want it to make toast than there are those that do.

While there is no data to support this claim, common sense prevails. No different than DLB. We've seen products recalled over customer disatisfaction, we've seen boycotts, we've seen CEO's with retractions, we've seen stock prices tumble. Nothing like that going on with the HR20 and DLB. Apathy. That's what's got DLB removed from D*'s radar. They don't care, subscribers don't care, non issue.

BJ

I don't mean to contrary but...

You can't make an analogy using a feature that couldn't possibly exist. Not only that but DLB exists in nearly all other DVR's.

Let's see if I could create a not so cogent argument using your logic.

Hypothetically(for that matter, it's also baseless)...

The following DVRs have DLB:

S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network - ViP622
Charter Communications - Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner - Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast - Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum - Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne - Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS - Motorola(QIP6416)

From this we can conclude that every other service provider is clueless. Only Directv has any idea what the viewers want. Directv knows everything and the other providers are a bunch of dummies.

Hey...It's a theory...

Mike

Tom Robertson

02-02-08, 03:36 PM

The HR20 does not make toast because there are more subscribers that don't want it to make toast than there are those that do.

While there is no data to support this claim, common sense prevails. No different than DLB. We've seen products recalled over customer disatisfaction, we've seen boycotts, we've seen CEO's with retractions, we've seen stock prices tumble. Nothing like that going on with the HR20 and DLB. Apathy. That's what's got DLB removed from D*'s radar. They don't care, subscribers don't care, non issue.

BJDichotomous thinking is a valid approach to consider in some situations. Yes, the HR20 does not make toast. It is not expected to.

Yet most of the time the world is not so black or white, "there are many colors in the rainbow and I see everyone". (Excellent song from a wonderful balladeer who died way too young.) DLB is not a feature that drive away massive customers in droves when measured against the extra HD channels one can only get from DIRECTV or BUD.

What lack of DLB can do is rub some people wrong. Perhaps not droves of people, but all Consumer Electronics companies are finding that in commodity markets, little things matter. This year's CES, every TV manufacturer was pushing Style not biggest or brightest. Just so, DIRECTV may find that DLB will help more people come or remain. Not by itself perhaps, rather as something that will no longer be the camel that breaks the straw. :)

Have I left because of lack of DLB? Noper. I still have an HR10 for this last season's NFL ST. :)

Cheers,
Tom

inkahauts

02-02-08, 04:36 PM

I've never once seen a company recall a product and give all customers back their money simply because customers were dissatisfied with it....

inkahauts

02-02-08, 04:40 PM

skimmilk

02-02-08, 06:59 PM

While watching tv, press the yellow button and select prev channels.... You will be able to select from the last four channels you have tuned to quickly... Leaving you with the ability to flip between 5 channels very quickly....

Thanks for the advice... I'm not saying that there aren't workarounds. My point is that the idea behind DLB has been around a long time and it frustrates me to no end when something as easy as pressing one button becomes 3-5 buttons for no reason. And complications dis-incentivize people from buying additional channels (you don't need additional channels if its difficult to switch/toggle).

Steve

02-02-08, 08:55 PM

ITo explain this, most old cable boxes used to be able to flash back between two channel ranges. So I might tune to ESPN which happens to be close to NESN and use +/- to flip between the two. By pressing PREV, I could jump over to say HBO and use +/- to swap between it and SHO without losing a handle on the sports networks (just press PREV). Frankly, this is more important to me than actually pausing or rewinding anything.I'm not sure I understand what it is you can no longer do. It seems to me the cable box behavior you described above is exactly duplicated (and arguably improved upon) by now hitting YELLOW and PREV, the way inkahauts described, and quickly selecting any one of four channels you're currently monitoring.

I'm not sure how DLB's will offer improved game monitoring capability for you, especially since the minute you switch to a third channel, one buffer will be lost. /steve

jheda

02-03-08, 12:48 PM

Rich

02-03-08, 01:33 PM

Ok. That implies that there is some alternate better than DLB out there.

But there is no DVR that D* supports that can use the MPEG4 signals. Therein lies the "paradigm". The reason we were shown the movie about paradigms was to get us to "think outside the box".

To dislike an HR20 because of the lack of DLBs is a paradigm.

Those LED watches that Texas Instruments insisted on producing told time just as well as the LCD digital watches. But you had to push a button to see the time. The LED watches had an advantage over the LCD watches in that you could see the face at night when you pushed the button. Even the "back lit" LCDs were and still are hard to see at night.

Since I never watch live TV, I have no real interest in DLBs. Were I you, I would keep trying to get the DLBs instated. Keep complaining. Maybe someone will listen. The squeaky wheel...

Rich

sunking

02-03-08, 06:00 PM

Most DVR's have DLB; none make toast.

Seriously BJ, give us a challenge.....

[QUOTE=boltjames;1431066]The HR20 does not make toast because there are more subscribers that don't want it to make toast than there are those that do.

I don't know, he may be onto something. Perhaps it should make toast and be marketed as your kitchen receiver. Some would argue it already gets hot enough. D* does not have a simple way of driving your under the cabinet kitchen lcd tv. Hiding the receiver takes some effort. Turn it into a toaster and nobody would mind it sitting on the counter.

skimmilk

02-04-08, 12:36 AM

I'm not sure I understand what it is you can no longer do. It seems to me the cable box behavior you described above is exactly duplicated (and arguably improved upon) by now hitting YELLOW and PREV, the way inkahauts described, and quickly selecting any one of four channels you're currently monitoring.

I'm not sure how DLB's will offer improved game monitoring capability for you, especially since the minute you switch to a third channel, one buffer will be lost. /steve

My point was simply the fact that just like the weird PREV functionality of old cable boxes, DTV is missing out on my revenues (e.g. NCAA, MLB). I don't jump channels like I used to in the pre DVR days. But as for game monitoring, I would switch to 3 when 1 or 2 got stale (e.g. blowout, halftime, etc).

skimmilk

02-04-08, 12:53 AM

To dislike an HR20 because of the lack of DLBs is a paradigm.

Those LED watches that Texas Instruments insisted on producing told time just as well as the LCD digital watches. But you had to push a button to see the time. The LED watches had an advantage over the LCD watches in that you could see the face at night when you pushed the button. Even the "back lit" LCDs were and still are hard to see at night.

I totally understand your example but its not applicable in this case. In your example, its A vs B (e.g. tradeoff of easier night viewing vs. pressing a button to see during day). Now if LEDs didn't need the button press, then it would be purely an LED vs LCD paradigm selection (cost vs better night visibility). What DLB proponents argue instead is that they would either switch faster to HR2x (reduce DTVs cost/pain of maintaining MPEG2) or not switch/pay for more channels. Having DLB would not sacrifice whatever paradigm that the HR2xs follows (e.g. no revenue splitting with Tivo, MPEG4, DTV exclusive features).

If people were arguing about Tivo UI, then that would be a better example of paradigm battle (such as color buttons vs. directional; searches vs wish lists; etc).