Dual Buffers

[boltjames]

I need to hire a polling expert to ask all of the HR20 owners? Are you serious? I am talking about the membership HERE. Not all DirectTV customers. Not all HR2x owners. I'm talking about the membership HERE. Considering the large number of NON-DirecTV customers at DBSTalk.com, I still say 5% of the total is a significant number.

Look at Page 1 HERE and you'll get a good indication of who the registered users are.

They look something like this:

http://www-uxsup.csx.cam.ac.uk/~fanf2/hermes/doc/talks/2004-02-ukuug/crybaby.png

Again, not just here. On every product based discussion forum. Go to iLounge. You'd think the iPod was the worst product ever designed. Happy people don't post. Mad people do.

BJ

[Rich]

How long will this thread be? Pretty well established fact that most people want DLBs. Waste of space, no?

[Lord Vader]

I think I've finally figured you guys out.

Actually, you have not.

I like my HR20-700s. A lot. There are many things about it that are better than my HR10-250s, which are still active. However, there are a few things the HR10-250 has that are superior to the HR20s, chief among them DLB. This doesn't mean I like the HR10-250s more; rather it simply means in certain ways the HR10-250 is better.


I'm truly sorry.

BJ


Indeed you are. (http://www.starwars.stopklatka.pl/sounds/needa.wav)

[mutley]

First a quick "Thank you"...for clarifying that DLB was NOT available, and for saving me time trying to get it to work. I've been on the phone with DTV today, who tried to imply that it must be "user error" as it works on their system at home!!! (must have the tivo version ;-))

After years of DTivo service I just, yesterday, upgraded to the HR20/21 for HD. While I knew that it would not be as feature rich as the TiVo version, I had at least expected this feature to be a available. This is a must have in my household, and I'm getting grief from the wife who used this feature religiously.

I'm not mad or angry, just disappointed.

It gets my vote!!!

[Mike Bertelson]

snip
So, what you're really pointing out is that only 5% of all the complaining/negative members of DBSTalk.com care about DLB which is statistically insignificant.

And that, dear friends, is Reason #1 why D* didn't bother to include DLB in their first and second editions of their proprietary HD DVR's.
Lack of interest.

BJ

I didn't realize you were in on the planning meetings for Directv's DVR+. :rolleyes:

How could you possibly make such a claim?

In all your posts, you state things as if you know them to be fact. You would think with all the crap you’ve taken in other forums for you posts you would have learned by now. It's why you're allways accused of being a troll.

BTW, you're the only one who thinks this thread is a detrimental to new members. Speaking for myself I like reading about theorys.

IMHO, this sticky is good for those looking to upgrade or have questions after the fact. I have two friends who just assumed the HR20 would have DLB and were supprised to find out it doesn't ( both of whom do/will miss DLB and they aren't counted in this poll). Having it as a sticky anwser some questions before the get asked.

Mike

[Earl Bonovich]

Enough...

:backtotop Or I will close the thread... and will not allow another to start for a "cooling off" period.

[cygnusloop]

First a quick "Thank you"...for clarifying that DLB was NOT available

...I'm not mad or angry, just disappointed.

It gets my vote!!!

:welcome_s to DBSTalk, mutley!

I feel as you, not mad, just disappointed. I think you will find that, otherwise, the HR20 does the job really well. I love the native output feature. VOD is coming along, and will be a great feature as we move forward. When the network does it right, the new MPEG4 HD channels are stunning. You'll find you miss DLB less and less as time goes by, and who knows, maybe one day....

Again, welcome!

[Lord Vader]

Enough...

:backtotop Or I will close the thread... and will not allow another to start for a "cooling off" period.

Actually, that's a very good idea. Perhaps a DLB thread where only the poll is available--no posts, just the poll and its results.

[ToddinVA]

you[/I]. It's designed for Mr. & Mrs. Didn't-Set-My-VCR-Clock. Those people, them, those people, they're the reason your beloved DLB isn't included in the D* DVR strategy. Those people just want to hit "guide" and watch a show in HD or hit "record" and watch that show later. D* is catering to them now, not you. Tweaky is out, mass is in, and you've got to grasp that. You've been asked by BMW to enjoy your Camry. Sorry.

BJ

I don't agree with that at all. How many of these "Mr. & Mrs. Didn't-Set-My-VCR-Clock" people you refer to have HDTV along with DirecTV and an HR20 DVR? Sure, there are more and more, but not that many yet. If that was how they designed it, first of all, it would be a little easier to use with a better interface and it wouldn't have some of the other advanced feature it does have. Seriously, how many of these people are going to use the Action Channel? Why would they include DirecTV On Demand, which requires a broadband Internet connection?? According to you, the people this box was designed for wouldn't have a clue what that even means. Why would they allow multiple custom channel lists? Surely these dolts wouldn't bother with that...

All this thread is about is a feature that a lot of people do use and like (not from just former TiVo users, but cable users, etc as well) and why on earth DirecTV is not letting us have it on their newer boxes. As a TiVo user since 1999, I like the HR20 for the most part and like some of the new features it offers. But because I have become dependent on DLB, I just cannot use it as my primary DVR yet. I still have to use my HR10. I would like to switch to it, but I just can't. Hopefully someone at DirecTV will listen, but I'm starting to really worry that they just won't. And that sucks. :(

[boltjames]

I didn't realize you were in on the planning meetings for Directv's DVR+.

How could you possibly make such a claim?

Mike

I think the evidence supports my claim. D* has done everything possible to make the HR20 a world-class DVR. From robust menu's to quick speed to convenience features, they've made it very easy to use for the typical, non-tech user.

With that much thought and development behind this great device, the only plausible reason that DLB is not an included feature is because not enough people cared about it or used it to begin with. Everything else remotely important was retained from the HR10. Everything else that needed improving was improved over the HR10.

Thus, "lack of interest" on behalf of the end user is the most logical explanation for it not being avaliable anymore. All evidence points to D* caring about its customers. All evidence points to D* taking the time to perfect their DVR. All evidence points to no DLB in the future. 2 + 2 = 4. It's not there because the vast majority of users don't even realize it's gone or never used it in the first place.

BJ

[boltjames]

ToddinVA I don't agree with that at all. How many of these "Mr. & Mrs. Didn't-Set-My-VCR-Clock" people you refer to have HDTV along with DirecTV and an HR20 DVR? Sure, there are more and more, but not that many yet.

With prices on LCD flat panels falling dramatically in the last 13 months, the paradigm shift away from SDTV is well underway. And, remember, that the D* customer interested in a DVR is most certainly of a wealth level to be among the first to join the HDTV revolution. D* is not cheap. And it's killer app remains NFL Sunday Ticket and with practically every game in HD, D*'s growth has been enormous.

If that was how they designed it, first of all, it would be a little easier to use with a better interface and it wouldn't have some of the other advanced feature it does have. Seriously, how many of these people are going to use the Action Channel? Why would they include DirecTV On Demand, which requires a broadband Internet connection??

No different than the millions of cellphones sold in 2002 during its explosive period. All were over-designed with forward-thinking features no one used at the time (cameras, web browsers, MP3 players) and at the same time dumbed down to reduce customer disatisfaction and returns (thick cases, big batteries, big keys).

D* wants these DVR's to last 5+ years. Like a car, their lease payments add up and turn a profit later in the lifecycle. If the HR20 becomes obsolete too quickly, it's a financial problem for D*. So they throw in ports and broadband connectivity on the come, assuming that there might be a need in the future. Better to throw this stuff on now rather than wait until they've got obsolete hardware.

According to you, the people this box was designed for wouldn't have a clue what that even means. Why would they allow multiple custom channel lists? Surely these dolts wouldn't bother with that...

These dolts have iPod's, have cars with personalized keyfob settings, and have their favorite TV channels. Makes sense that they'd offer different users in the house their own minor options like that.

D* wants the HR20 to last a long, long time and they want them to be simple enough for the lowest common denominator to use.

BJ

[boltjames]

Actually, that's a very good idea. Perhaps a DLB thread where only the poll is available--no posts, just the poll and its results.

Or....

The DLB mission has been accomplished and has failed. Made everyone hear ad nauseum about the obsession, made D* notice that there are people upset, made no difference as another iteration of D*'s HD STB was released without it yet again.

A single closed sticky that says "Dual Tuner Buffers - Not Available On HR20/1 - Click Here" is really all that's needed to make sure that newb's don't start new threads about swapping tuners.

BJ

[ShiningBengal]

the paradigm shift
BJ
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[beer_geek]

Enough...

:backtotop Or I will close the thread... and will not allow another to start for a "cooling off" period.

A poll without the troll sounds like a great idea.

[ToddinVA]

According to you, the people this box was designed for wouldn't have a clue what that even means. Why would they allow multiple custom channel lists? Surely these dolts wouldn't bother with that...

These dolts have iPod's, have cars with personalized keyfob settings, and have their favorite TV channels. Makes sense that they'd offer different users in the house their own minor options like that.

D* wants the HR20 to last a long, long time and they want them to be simple enough for the lowest common denominator to use.

BJ

I give up. You're undermining your whole argument.

[Lord Vader]

I think the evidence supports my claim.

No it doesn't. Just what planet do you inhabit?


D* has done everything possible to make the HR20 a world-class DVR. From robust menu's to quick speed to convenience features, they've made it very easy to use for the typical, non-tech user.

With that much thought and development behind this great device, the only plausible reason that DLB is not an included feature is because not enough people cared about it or used it to begin with.

Put down the peyote already. How can you say something so wrong when the evidence is quite to the contrary? To those who know what the term DLB means--illustrated by those who visit such forums or who have friends/relatives who do--the overwhelming majority want DLB. Just look at the poll results in this forum alone. For those who don't know what the term "DLB" means--like my parents, for example--when they're told what dual live buffer is and does and how the HR20s don't have the capability, they then agree that it's a feature they miss and want back.

The absence of DLB has nothing to do with not enough people caring about it or not enough people using it. Are you frickin' kidding? Most people used it but just didn't know what the terminology for it was/is.

I wish I had debated you in high school speech and debate, because I'd wipe the floor with your use of rash generalizations, assumptions, and horrible logic.

[boltjames]

Put down the peyote already. How can you say something so wrong when the evidence is quite to the contrary? To those who know what the term DLB means--illustrated by those who visit such forums or who have friends/relatives who do--the overwhelming majority want DLB. Just look at the poll results in this forum alone. For those who don't know what the term "DLB" means--like my parents, for example--when they're told what dual live buffer is and does and how the HR20s don't have the capability, they then agree that it's a feature they miss and want back.

The absence of DLB has nothing to do with not enough people caring about it or not enough people using it. Are you frickin' kidding? Most people used it but just didn't know what the terminology for it was/is.

I wish I had debated you in high school speech and debate, because I'd wipe the floor with your use of rash generalizations, assumptions, and horrible logic.

Let's try this again:

1. An internet poll on a product specific subforum is useless as 70% of the population is here to complain and is a far cry from a realistic sample of the true user base.

2. From all accounts, it looks like DLB is not very difficult to engineer into the HR20. In fact, it looks like its already there doing its job but it's just not accessible to the user the way it used to be. When something used to be available, was taken away, is simple to execute, and isn't being exectued, there can be no explanation other than: No one cares but you.

And that's the story. It's a non-issue to the vast, vast majority of the HR20 user base. But no, you just throw up a poll to a bunch of malcontents and claim that the obvious isn't the real answer.

BJ

[Lord Vader]

1. An internet poll on a product specific subforum is useless as 70% of the population is here to complain and is a far cry from a realistic sample of the true user base.

Wrong. You obviously didn't understand my explanation as to the two types of data sets. No surprise there.


2. From all accounts, it looks like DLB is not very difficult to engineer into the HR20. In fact, it looks like its already there doing its job but it's just not accessible to the user the way it used to be. When something used to be available, was taken away, is simple to execute, and isn't being exectued, there can be no explanation other than: No one cares but you.
Wrong again. Yet another generalization and stupid assumption.


And that's the story. It's a non-issue to the vast, vast majority of the HR20 user base. But no, you just throw up a poll to a bunch of malcontents and claim that the obvious isn't the real answer.

BJ
Wrong again.

Really, you're beginning to bore me with such foolish comments borne of personal opinion and ignorance.

Three strikes you're out, as they say in the world of baseball, and as a veteran NCAA Umpire, my ruling is that your at-bat is finished. Next.

[ToddinVA]

Let's try this again:

1. An internet poll on a product specific subforum is useless as 70% of the population is here to complain and is a far cry from a realistic sample of the true user base.

2. From all accounts, it looks like DLB is not very difficult to engineer into the HR20. In fact, it looks like its already there doing its job but it's just not accessible to the user the way it used to be. When something used to be available, was taken away, is simple to execute, and isn't being exectued, there can be no explanation other than: No one cares but you.

And that's the story. It's a non-issue to the vast, vast majority of the HR20 user base. But no, you just throw up a poll to a bunch of malcontents and claim that the obvious isn't the real answer.

BJ
First of all, most of us are not here to complain. We're here because we are enthusiasts and want to learn about our new DVR and it's software and to offer suggestions on how to improve it. Second of all, there are over 3,000 just in this one thread that do care. I think that's substantial.

[Earl Bonovich]

Alright... I have tried to turn the conversation back into something constructive but....

Thread Closed: Till December 7, 2007 ~ 10pm CST
No new DLB threads will be allowed to be opened until that time.
Any and all new DLB threads will be closed with a reference to this thread.

[Earl Bonovich]

A message to all those that PMed me about this closing of this thread....
Note: This is not directed at all of you... but those that it is, will know it is.

1) Note my post just before this... the thread was closed to a specific date/time. It is not closed indefinently.

2) You can make certain that when it re-opens, a statement about what the purpose of this thread is...

3) Those of you trying to point the finger at any one particular user... be certain to look where the other three fingers point back at.... as when I read through the last multiple pages of posts... it is not one poster that got heated in this little tiff

4) This closing is NOT about the topic of DLB on the DVR+ platform... it is about the way the posters in this thread acted in this thread. And you ALL need a wake up call...

This is a DISCUSSION forum.... not a backyard/playground screaming fest.
If you want to CONSTRUCTIVELY discuss the topic, fine.. else... be on your merry way.

[Earl Bonovich]

The thread has been re-opened.
Keep it on Topic... or it will be closed again... and for good.

[havlicek]

I have a theory for the lack of DLB.

Although the DLB is not specifically covered in the patents assigned to tivo, I wonder if lack of the DLB is part of the contractual agreement between tivo and dtv (that included the continued maint/support, agreement not to sue regarding patent rights, etc.).

Has this theory been posed and/or shot down yet?

[Earl Bonovich]

I have a theory for the lack of DLB.

Although the DLB is not specifically covered in the patents assigned to tivo, I wonder if lack of the DLB is part of the contractual agreement between tivo and dtv (that included the continued maint/support, agreement not to sue regarding patent rights, etc.).

Has this theory been posed and/or shot down yet?

Shot Down...

[MX727]

Here's the deal:

I sent the letters and received a prompt phone call from Direct. If the 2000+ voters are really serious, then you need to send a respectful, professional letter stating your concerns and let them know that the possibility exists for you to look elsewhere.

BJ is right that posting on an internet forum doesn't mean much.

If you want a change, spend 15 minutes and a stamp.

One other thing, I did tell the girl when she called that I don't care if the HR20/21 ever gets DLB. I just need assurance that there will be a DLB box in the near future.

To help those who love the HR20/21 understand: That box doesn't fit my needs and I need to know that something is coming that will.

[tiger2005]

Shot Down...

Earl, how about this one...they won't enable DLB because at some point in the near future, with the implementation of FTM, they'll be able to have THREE active sat tuners at one time. It would be possible for three sat recordings at once, two at once with one live feed, etc. Thoughts??? If this has already been asked, excuse my ignorance.

[General Custer]

Earl, how about this one...they won't enable DLB because at some point in the near future, with the implementation of FTM, they'll be able to have THREE active sat tuners at one time. It would be possible for three sat recordings at once, two at once with one live feed, etc. Thoughts??? If this has already been asked, excuse my ignorance.

Then will need triple live buffers.

Two tuners=dual liver buffers then Three tuners=triple live buffers

[Que]

A must have! 2500 77.26%
Don't really care about it. 159 4.91%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 577 17.83%
Voters: 3236.

Replies- 2,027
Views- 113,872

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl, how about this one...they won't enable DLB because at some point in the near future, with the implementation of FTM, they'll be able to have THREE active sat tuners at one time. It would be possible for three sat recordings at once, two at once with one live feed, etc. Thoughts??? If this has already been asked, excuse my ignorance.

No box right now is designed with three tuners....
So you would need a change in hardware design to have three tuners...

Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.

And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB

[looter]

And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB

So, in a nutshell, what is the reason there aren't dual live buffers (in case I've missed it)?

[Earl Bonovich]

So, in a nutshell, what is the reason there aren't dual live buffers (in case I've missed it)?

Because DirecTV has chosen not to do it.
It is as simple as that.

[looter]

Because DirecTV has chosen not to do it.
It is as simple as that.

Hmmm... It doesn't have DLB because it doesn't have DLB... hmmm

[Earl Bonovich]

Hmmm... It doesn't have DLB because it doesn't have DLB... hmmm

No... the lack of DLB.... is not because it doesn't have DLB.

DirecTV made a decision, not to have the DLB feature in it's DVR+ platform.

[looter]

No... the lack of DLB.... is not because it doesn't have DLB.

DirecTV made a decision, not to have the DLB feature in it's DVR+ platform.

Sorry, it just again begs the question: Why?

[Fenway]

No... the lack of DLB.... is not because it doesn't have DLB.

DirecTV made a decision, not to have the DLB feature in it's DVR+ platform.

This is where I get confused. And I'm not trying to start anything. DirecTV chose not to have DLB in the DVR.

Why? Simple question - is there a simple answer?

[boltjames]

A must have! 2500 77.26%
Don't really care about it. 159 4.91%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 577 17.83%
Voters: 3236.

Replies- 2,027
Views- 113,872

Please note that in the two weeks since this thread was closed, only 1 post on the board was made regarding DLB and it was made by you, yesterday. As I speculated weeks ago, this is a non-issue for most owners and the lobbying for it has run its course.

BJ

[crmlht00]

No box right now is designed with three tuners....
So you would need a change in hardware design to have three tuners...

Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.

And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB

Because (DirecTV does not care what the masses (poll proves it) want and they go out of their way to deny us what we want

OR

The backwards hints Earl has been dropping (by what he has said, what he has not said & ways the phrases he uses when answers people ...)

that 3 live buffers is coming on an HR22 or later DVR (or a renamed DVR platform) or DUAL will come in a dvr not called he plus line.



IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr

and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier,

because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.

[boltjames]

This is where I get confused. And I'm not trying to start anything. DirecTV chose not to have DLB in the DVR.

Why? Simple question - is there a simple answer?

I think the simple answer is "because no one seems to care that it's not there".

All the other essentials are featured in the HR20, and many more new ones were added. We know that D* cares about its member base, and this feature is not there. Their actions answer the question.

BJ

[looter]

Please note that in the two weeks since this thread was closed, only 1 post on the board was made regarding DLB and it was made by you, yesterday. As I speculated weeks ago, this is a non-issue for most owners and the lobbying for it has run its course.

BJ

If it doesn't matter to you please move on. No need for personal attacks. This is a forum for discussing DBS.

Don't care for DLB=don't post in the thread.

[crmlht00]

No... the lack of DLB.... is not because it doesn't have DLB.

DirecTV made a decision, not to have the DLB feature in it's DVR+ platform.


Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.

And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB[/QUOTE]

Because (DirecTV does not care what the masses (poll proves it) want and they go out of their way to deny us what we want

OR

The backwards hints Earl has been dropping (by what he has said, what he has not said & ways the phrases he uses when answers people ...)

that 3 live buffers is coming on an HR22 or later DVR (or a renamed DVR platform) or DUAL will come in a dvr not called he plus line.



IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr

and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier,

because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.

[crmlht00]

I think the simple answer is "because no one seems to care that it's not there".

All the other essentials are featured in the HR20, and many more new ones were added. We know that D* cares about its member base, and this feature is not there. Their actions answer the question.

BJ

nobody cares it not there ? are you insane, you must be blind

[crmlht00]

Because DirecTV has chosen not to do it.
It is as simple as that.


Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.

And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB[/QUOTE]

Because (DirecTV does not care what the masses (poll proves it) want and they go out of their way to deny us what we want

OR

The backwards hints Earl has been dropping (by what he has said, what he has not said & ways the phrases he uses when answers people ...)

that 3 live buffers is coming on an HR22 or later DVR (or a renamed DVR platform) or DUAL will come in a dvr not called he plus line.



IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr

and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier,

because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.

[boltjames]

IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier, because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.

That's an unfair generalization on many levels.

First, this theory of "giving us what we want". You need to look at the "us" and the "we" very carefully. There are millions of D* subscribers. I see a fraction of a fraction posting and reposting using some internet poll as a flag to wave. I see no mass outrage, I see no online movement, I see no blogs, I see no news articles.

Next, DLB was a so-called 'feature' on the HR10 for years and barely anyone knew it was there. That 2% that did know it was there, well, looks like some of you loved it. But the other 98% don't miss it because they never used it.

Lastly, you need to look at the wins and losses here, big picture. You'll see that for the one feature that you perceive you lost (DLB) there are about a dozen fefatures that you gained (native mode, stop button, one-touch-record, back button, etc.). On the whole, the 'loss' of this one feature is offset in droves by other features. Saying that D* is becoming too big for itself and is making a substandard product to cater to the masses might be a good thesis if all these other incremental feature wins didn't exist. They do. Proving D* cares. Cares about the important things, not the insignificant ones.

BJ

[boltjames]

nobody cares it not there ? are you insane, you must be blind

Lose the personal attacks. We don't want this thread closed.

There are millions of D* users and this matters to a very small fraction. You need no further proof than this:

1. The feature was on the HR10 and was deliberately left off the HR20. Why?

2. D* knows that some people want this feature, yet they are not even thinking of adding it back in. Why?

3. D* is working constantly on upgrading their product and have added or improved dozens of features that weren't available on the HR10, DLB not being one of them. Why?

Remember that old saying "if it walks like a duck and talks like duck, then it's a duck"? What you see is company that cares passionately about making the gold-standard DVR for its customers, yet they don't care at all about DLB. It's a "duck".

BJ

[crmlht00]

That's an unfair generalization on many levels.

First, this theory of "giving us what we want". You need to look at the "us" and the "we" very carefully. There are millions of D* subscribers. I see a fraction of a fraction posting and reposting using some internet poll as a flag to wave. I see no mass outrage, I see no online movement, I see no blogs, I see no news articles.

Next, DLB was a so-called 'feature' on the HR10 for years and barely anyone knew it was there. That 2% that did know it was there, well, looks like some of you loved it. But the other 98% don't miss it because they never used it.

Lastly, you need to look at the wins and losses here, big picture. You'll see that for the one feature that you perceive you lost (DLB) there are about a dozen fefatures that you gained (native mode, stop button, one-touch-record, back button, etc.). On the whole, the 'loss' of this one feature is offset in droves by other features. Saying that D* is becoming too big for itself and is making a substandard product to cater to the masses might be a good thesis if all these other incremental feature wins didn't exist. They do. Proving D* cares. Cares about the important things, not the insignificant ones.

BJ

wrong, the reason their is no mass outarge of the generla directv users, is because 99.9% of directv users and the public at large are sheep.

they do whatever someone tells them to do and do not complain and do not press an issue about lack of features or whenever they get cheated

you notice directv went to this board to improve the dvd, and if they cared what we wanted, they'd add dlb or similar feature (notice they went to the slim majority of directv subscribers to fix the dvr for the other masses, and that slim amount also want LB, yet directv balks, proving they do not care what we want in extra features, (they stuff they have added cause of this forum has not been "features" but added nuances to existing things on the dvr

a major difference ... i have a feeling the suer small miority within the minority of who is on this board have got directv's ear and made them think we do not want DLb despite how the vote has gone,

in otherwords a few here has wrongly decided for the masses, and we get cheated

[crmlht00]

Lose the personal attacks. We don't want this thread closed.

There are millions of D* users and this matters to a very small fraction. You need no further proof than this:

1. The feature was on the HR10 and was deliberately left off the HR20. Why?

2. D* knows that some people want this feature, yet they are not even thinking of adding it back in. Why?

3. D* is working constantly on upgrading their product and have added or improved dozens of features that weren't available on the HR10, DLB not being one of them. Why?

Remember that old saying "if it walks like a duck and talks like duck, then it's a duck"? What you see is company that cares passionately about making the gold-standard DVR for its customers, yet they don't care at all about DLB. It's a "duck".

BJ

it was not a personal attack, it was stating a fact based on your belief you posted, i never insulted you in general, just wondered where your mind was about the 1 specific thing you posted

if you notice, yes they have added features that were not on the hr10 (the ones they would noy allow tivo to add to it) for the dvr+ , and have ignored tremendous functionality the hr10 has, a real search capability, a real saved list etc /////

and the dvr+ lacks real parental controls, no way for us to block out ANY channel we decide from being punched in manually on remote

[Fenway]

1. The feature was on the HR10 and was deliberately left off the HR20. Why?

2. D* knows that some people want this feature, yet they are not even thinking of adding it back in. Why?

3. D* is working constantly on upgrading their product and have added or improved dozens of features that weren't available on the HR10, DLB not being one of them. Why?

BJ

That's the simple question I would like answered - WHY?

Why not have DLB?

WHY?

[Earl Bonovich]

Because (DirecTV does not care what the masses (poll proves it) want and they go out of their way to deny us what we want

OR

The backwards hints Earl has been dropping (by what he has said, what he has not said & ways the phrases he uses when answers people ...)

that 3 live buffers is coming on an HR22 or later DVR (or a renamed DVR platform) or DUAL will come in a dvr not called he plus line.



IF none of the above is true, then it proves DirecTV does not want to give us what we want on a dvr

and especially since they are beginning to trounce cable and Echostar, that becomes even scarier,

because if they become super dominate, they are even less apt to care what we want and will only give us what they think want us to have.

1) The poll doesn't prove that... all it proves is that a population of the user set, that frequents this forum... wants DLB... It does not "prove" the masses want it.

And actually they are not going out of their way at all, to not include something that was never there.....

2) There is no "tripple" tuner HR22 on the horizon... or as far as I know even remotely planned.

[Lord Vader]

bolt, your sanctimony and illogical generalizations and assumptions are what led to the responses that got this thread temporarily closed. I'd suggest you remove yourself from this thread permemently, for you are a lone voice in a vast wilderness.

[Earl Bonovich]

That's the simple question I would like answered - WHY?

Why not have DLB?

WHY?

Because that have chosen NOT to include DLB... that it..
That is the WHY...

As for "WHY" that was there decision... Well.. that answer can't be given.

[boltjames]

wrong, the reason their is no mass outarge of the generla directv users, is because 99.9% of directv users and the public at large are sheep.

they do whatever someone tells them to do and do not complain and do not press an issue about lack of features or whenever they get cheated

Exactly my point. "No one cares". Right?

The HR10 was originally $999.00 for the very wealthy tech customer. No different than Motorola's Startac back in the day. The HR20 is a different animal, a "free" DVR for Mr. & Mrs. Camry.

The HR20 is designed to get D* millions and millions more consumers and to be rock solid so as to not need replacing or experience costly housecalls. Somewhere on some whiteboard in D* headquarters, they looked at user data and telephone polls and came to the conclusion that Mr. & Mrs. Camry want faster guides, easier recording, bigger fonts, simple by-event menus, and better picture quality.

D*'s DVR isn't a wealthy man's plaything anymore. It's a mass product to take D* to the next level. My Startac had a couple of fun features that my KRZR lacks, but on the whole, my KRZR is a far better phone. You lose 1 measely thing, you pick up 20 better things. Evolution.

Instead of going round in circles all weekend, please, see the forest through the trees: D* can execute DLB and chose not to. If it were important, it would be there. It's not there. Therefore, it's not important.

BJ

[boltjames]

bolt, your sanctimony and illogical generalizations and assumptions are what led to the responses that got this thread temporarily closed. I'd suggest you remove yourself from this thread permemently, for you are a lone voice in a vast wilderness.

No, quite the opposite.

I am the lone rational voice in a sea of emotional lobbying. Besides, this thread dies every time I leave it and I'm actually helping bring attention to your cause by being the voice of reason and getting dialog flowing.

Yes, some of my supportive theories may not have been on the mark (advertising pressure around commercials, processor strain, etc.) but big-picture my thesis cannot be denied:

No one cares except for a few power-users who have found their way to this forum. If there was mass outrage or a legitimate push for this feature, D* would have acted upon it already. They haven't. That should answer your question.

BJ

[looter]

No, quite the opposite.

I am the lone rational voice in a sea of emotional lobbying. Besides, this thread dies every time I leave it and I'm actually helping bring attention to your cause by being the voice of reason and getting dialog flowing.BJ

If you believe your own b.s. leave and let it die.

"Rational voice" is not what I would describe here.

Don't care for DLB=don't post in the thread.

[boltjames]

Don't care for DLB=don't post in the thread.

That's not in the spirit of community that DBS is known for. I'll start a thread entitled "Sony HDTV's Are The Best And If You Don't Own One You Suck". Let's see how far that gets me. I adore the HR20 and feel compelled to defend it when it's being wronged. That's no crime.

This isn't The Dual Buffer Fan Club. It's a discussion forum. I'm not being rude or obnoxious. I'm just speaking the truth which, apparently, you don't want to hear. I'm sorry for that just like I'm sorry that you cannot accept the two dozen new innovations in the HR20 as a good tradeoff to the loss of the one feature you miss.

BJ

[TheRatPatrol]

No box right now is designed with three tuners....
I thought with E* boxes you could record 3 things at once, 2 sat, and 1 OTA?

Thanks

[Rich]

No box right now is designed with three tuners....
So you would need a change in hardware design to have three tuners...

Getting the signal to the box is one thing, being able to work with it is another.

And no, that is not a reason why there isn't DLB

This is like having Herpes, it just keeps coming back. I thought you put this to rest.

Rich

[Tom Robertson]

There are other logical states beyond: 1) DIRECTV doesn't listen to us or 2) DIRECTV doesn't want the feature, yada yada.

How about another option (the one they tell me, and I believe them): DIRECTV believes they have features more people will want even more and even sooner than DLB? (That still leaves DLB on the "eventual" roadmap, just farther down the road, btw, tho that is my hope, not something that has been said.)

Product Management is an interesting combination of marketing, research, and gut feel, innovation, and education. I do wish for DLB, very much as is likely noticable. :)

I'm interested in the other features coming down the road too. :)

Happy Holidays!
Tom

[Earl Bonovich]

I thought with E* boxes you could record 3 things at once, 2 sat, and 1 OTA?

Thanks

I was referring to DirecTV products.

[Lord Vader]

No, quite the opposite.

Hardly. I call it delusions of grandeur.

[mtnsackett]

I thought with E* boxes you could record 3 things at once, 2 sat, and 1 OTA?

Thanks

the only way with a D* reciever to record 3 things at once is to record two shows via sat signal and Download one over the internet with the HR20 or HR21 if it is available on that recever. no other irds have the Directv on Demand feature

[ToddinVA]

Lastly, you need to look at the wins and losses here, big picture. You'll see that for the one feature that you perceive you lost (DLB) there are about a dozen fefatures that you gained (native mode, stop button, one-touch-record, back button, etc.). On the whole, the 'loss' of this one feature is offset in droves by other features. Saying that D* is becoming too big for itself and is making a substandard product to cater to the masses might be a good thesis if all these other incremental feature wins didn't exist. They do. Proving D* cares. Cares about the important things, not the insignificant ones.

BJ

If it came to that, I'd give up some of those extra new features just to get back DLB. My HR10's power supply went bad last weekend and I lived without my HR10 and solely with my HR20 for a week before I got my replacement power supply in. I just flat out cannot live with DLB. My TiVo is now fixed and all if right with the world again. The HR20 will be my secondary DVR until my HR10 is pulled from my cold dead hands or when they implement DLB on the HR20! Period.

[sshams95]

I thought with E* boxes you could record 3 things at once, 2 sat, and 1 OTA?

Thanks

Yes you can....and it also has DLB & PIP.

[anubys]

1) The poll doesn't prove that... all it proves is that a population of the user set, that frequents this forum... wants DLB... It does not "prove" the masses want it.


well, as a statistician (and I think we had this discussion earlier in the thread), this poll is taken by a large enough sample (3,000+) that you can make a very strong argument that the masses DO want DLB...

about the only hole you can punch in the argument is that maybe those who do not want it simply didn't vote...but given that more than 500 voted that way, that argument is tenuous at best...

[ub1934]

There are other logical states beyond: 1) DIRECTV doesn't listen to us or 2) DIRECTV doesn't want the feature, yada yada.

How about another option (the one they tell me, and I believe them): DIRECTV believes they have features more people will want even more and even sooner than DLB? (That still leaves DLB on the "eventual" roadmap, just farther down the road, btw, tho that is my hope, not something that has been said.)

Product Management is an interesting combination of marketing, research, and gut feel, innovation, and education. I do wish for DLB, very much as is likely noticable. :)

I'm interested in the other features coming down the road too. :)

Happy Holidays!
Tom

If they won't give us DLB how about a SLB that works ?? :rolleyes:

[Fenway]

Because that have chosen NOT to include DLB... that it..
That is the WHY...

As for "WHY" that was there decision... Well.. that answer can't be given.

See, that is what I do not understand. I can understand that they chose not to do so, for some reason. What I can't understand is why they chose not to inform the customer base of the reasons for that choice.

Apparently you do know the why and wherefore, at least that is what I have gathered from some of your comments. Why are the rest of us not privy to the same information?

[Que]

For all the anti-DLB, what would it hurt if DirecTV gets DLB on it's new DVRs? This is feature that we love and use daily. Heck DirecTV introduce me to my first DVR, a Hughes box. We love it so much I bought another one for the bedroom. Then when I bought a HD TV, I bought a HR10. This was close when the HR20 was going to come out. Told them I wanted to upgrade right when it was release. They added in the notes a nice deal for me to upgrade to it and I bought the HR10. All my DVRs (3) that I received from DirecTV have DLB and a pause point that holds it.

Now I’m not talking bad about any of there own DVRs(+). They are getting better but, for me they just need those two options that I use daily for me to upgrade. I’m sure with time it will get were it needs to be. I can only hope it is before they turn off my HR10 and goes MPEG4 only. If not my choice are Charter (very bad customer service, long wait for a box) or Dish. Don’t really know that much about Dish. Most of my buddies have Charter or DirecTV. I really don’t want to go anywhere I am happy with DirecTV. I have been with them since 1998. Their customer service has always been great. That why I hope I can stay with them.

The 2508 people that voted “a must have” just wanted this option on DirecTV’s new DVR. What does it hurt if someone makes a poll about options they want? I still think the best way is to send a letter to DIRECTV, Inc about DLB. DirecTV does have a great DVR line, they just need to add the options that most of us are using/missing daily.

[puffnstuff]

See, that is what I do not understand. I can understand that they chose not to do so, for some reason. What I can't understand is why they chose not to inform the customer base of the reasons for that choice.

Apparently you do know the why and wherefore, at least that is what I have gathered from some of your comments. Why are the rest of us not privy to the same information?

I guess we don't deserve one . I have been waiting for over a year now and have been told everything from they are working on it ( from Earl ) to it already works (csr) to never ever going to happen . I just want to know why , come on Earl you said we would eventually know why . Well when will that be ? probably when the HR 4000 comes out . Enough is enough just tell us !

[boltjames]

Que For all the anti-DLB, what would it hurt if DirecTV gets DLB on it's new DVRs? This is feature that we love and use daily.

No hurt at all. It's not the request for DLB that's an issue. It's the level of attention that a few peole are getting for a very minor feature that's an issue. For newb's coming to DBS, they see this thread with 100,000+ views and they perceive that there's a major flaw in the HR20 when there isn't.

Heck DirecTV introduce me to my first DVR, a Hughes box. We love it so much I bought another one for the bedroom.

I didn't realize until this very moment that you don't own an HR20. I can see now what we're dealing with here. Don't you belong over on the Tivo forums? That's where this conversation really needs to take place.

The 2508 people that voted “a must have” just wanted this option on DirecTV’s new DVR.

My understanding is that there are millions of D* DVR's in circulation. 2500 "yes" votes in discussion forum is still statistically insignificant. And, methinks, the fact that the poll starter doesn't even own an HR20 leads me to believe that a great majority of those 2500 don't own an HR20 either. They're just grumpy HR10 owners and Tivo lovers looking for a new audience now that Tivo forums is all but dead.

What does it hurt if someone makes a poll about options they want?

Again, nothing. But Earl was on the right track. This thread was closed for 2 weeks and not a single thread was started asking about DLB, leading one to believe that this thread, closed, with its page count reset to 1, with a simple statement about "two tuner buffering is not available at this time on the HR20" is all that's needed.

The pro-DLB people have three agendas, and two of them are not good for the community:

1. Let newbs know that DLB isn't available on the HR20 and that D* has been informed of requests for it. That's good. Sticky with page count of 1 is enough.

2. Let's D* know there are people who are upset and want this matter considered strongly. That's bad. They know. It's overkill at this point. Bumping a distorted poll every week when 6 more people vote. And it's turned into...

3. Whining. Endless whining about D* and questioning the intentions of D* and challenging the priorities of D* and ignoring the positives in the HR20 from D*. That's bad. All that does is make newbs reconsider D* as a service option and make confused HR10 owners even more confused about jumping to the HR20.

I still think the best way is to send a letter to DIRECTV, Inc about DLB. DirecTV does have a great DVR line, they just need to add the options that most of us are using/missing daily.

If DLB was a feature that "most of us were using/missing daily" it would be on the HR20 already. It's a niche feature that was so underutilized and so unimportant that D* themselves took it off the list.

Listen, big picture here, this agenda of building up a thread count to get D*'s attention is unneccessary at this point and all this thread does is cause newbs to be confused or disuaded towards D*. And on this point I am an expert; I held onto my HR10 for way too long because of all the propoganda over at Tivo forums and all the misinformation and misperception over here at DBS. A D* newb or an HR10 user lands here and it feels like Tivo forums to that person. Some of this we can't control- all product related message boards have their share of "my product doesn't work" negativism on page one. But this particular thread we can control, and this "I miss my Tivo, boo hoo" attitude displayed so prominently atop the board as a sticky with 100k views no less, well, that does an injustice to the purpose of this forum. It causes more confusion than it does good. You wanted D*'s attention, you got D*'s attention and they still don't care enough to add the feature.

I find it quite ironic and unacceptable that the biggest thread on the forum is created and continually bumped by someone who doesn't even own the very product he's posting about.

The thread was closed for two weeks and no one cared to even ask about the feature. D* knows your plight. Enough. Set the thread count to 1, close this, and let's stop helping those who are holding onto their HR10's needlessly have such a visible platform to condemn the great HR20.

BJ

[ShiningBengal]

As a favor to those of us who have put BJ on our ignore lists, for those of you who have not yet done so, it would be nice if you did not quote him in your responses.

Sort of defeats the purpose of "ignoring" him.

To those of you who still like to read his posts, you have no idea how nice it is not to see them. Try the ignore function. It works beautifully. BJ has already posted his opinions many times over. He is just rehashing the same old same old, over and over again. You won't be missing anything.:)

[sshams95]

As a favor to those of us who have put BJ on our ignore lists, for those of you who have not yet done so, it would be nice if you did not quote him in your responses.

Sort of defeats the purpose of "ignoring" him.

To those of you who still like to read his posts, you have no idea how nice it is not to see them. Try the ignore function. It works beautifully. BJ has already posted his opinions many times over. He is just rehashing the same old same old, over and over again. You won't be missing anything.:)

Amen.

[Lord Vader]

If everybody adds him to their ignore list, then it would be like he's talking to himself.

How refreshing! :)

[Tom Robertson]

Boltjames,

What is your agenda with the post you've made? If, in your opinion we who want DLB are whining, does it make ANY sense to whine about whine? :) (And how do I get myself out of the trap of taking it to a third level?) :)

As moderators, we've chosen to ask that the DLB material be contained to one thread at this point. Just as we try to keep other discussions collected for simplicity. Part of that simplicity might be to just ignore the whole discussion if you are so anti-DLB or at least anti-DLB discussion. (A friendly moderator nudge.)

One more point, a sample size of over 3,000 can very accurately represent the 17M DIRECTV customers. That is larger than the sample size for some national political polls! That said, this is a very skewed group from whom to draw a sample from. No doubt about it.

So then we look at the numbers themselves. A very large group want it, a very, very small group don't. A medium sized group don't care. My take is that the people here are likely going to think ahead of the joe 6 pack in features. What we want today, they will want tomorrow.

Once I showed DLB to my Dad, he jumped all over it. He held off on his HR20 acquisition as long as he could, partly because of the lack of DLB.

So, Boltjames, please let us DLB people have our one thread. If you have logic to add to a conversation, go for it. Otherwise, please keep things clean.

Thanks,
Tom

[Lord Vader]

Tom,

I echo your father's reaction. My parents have both an HR20-700 and an HR10-250. Same thing for my brother. Neither of those two households really knows what the term "Dual Live Buffer" is; however, when I explain or show them what DLB does, they then know; and they love it! Both my brother and parents use it all the time, especially when watching sports. They've perfected the art of pausing, switching tuners, etc.

When they use their HR20s, a unit they do like, their single biggest complaint is the lack of DLB, or as they say it, "no second tuner." (Slightly inaccurate, but you get my point.)

[dwlevy]

Every so often when I check this thread, the passion level amazes me. I think it's great, however I think it causes people to miss a crucial point.

Before I throw my 2 cents in, let me preface this by saying I am a huge DLB proponent. I still utilize my HR10-250 for OTA HD in great part because of the HR20's lack of DLB. I think the lack of DLB is an omission that will keep the HR20s from ever being a truly great product.

That said, DirecTV is a business geared toward being profitable. To do that it has to balance costs versus returns on investment. I think that the only logical explanation for the lack of DLB in the HR20s is that those responsible for its development have determined that the benefit of that feature -- as of now -- does not justify the expense of implementing it properly.

At the beginning of the HR20's development cycle, that may have not been the case. Perhaps some knucklehead without any real experience with a DVR utilizing DLB determined it wasn't important. But now, if that was even true, I can't believe that they really feel that way. I think it is now more about economics. Rewriting and adding the necessary programming code and then QCing it can't be cheap. I'm sure when all of the other features they feel are more economically feasible to implement are running properly, they'll revisit adding DLB.

At least that's my hope.

[ShiningBengal]

Every so often when I check this thread, the passion level amazes me. I think it's great, however I think it causes people to miss a crucial point.

Before I throw my 2 cents in, let me preface this by saying I am a huge DLB proponent. I still utilize my HR10-250 for OTA HD in great part because of the HR20's lack of DLB. I think the lack of DLB is an omission that will keep the HR20s from ever being a truly great product.

That said, DirecTV is a business geared toward being profitable. To do that it has to balance costs versus returns on investment. I think that the only logical explanation for the lack of DLB in the HR20s is that those responsible for its development have determined that the benefit of that feature -- as of now -- does not justify the expense of implementing it properly.

At the beginning of the HR20's development cycle, that may have not been the case. Perhaps some knucklehead without any real experience with a DVR utilizing DLB determined it wasn't important. But now, if that was even true, I can't believe that they really feel that way. I think it is now more about economics. Rewriting and adding the necessary programming code and then QCing it can't be cheap. I'm sure when all of the other features they feel are more economically feasible to implement are running properly, they'll revisit adding DLB.

At least that's my hope.

Any new design should begin with a blank sheet of paper, if they are to improve upon the design of an existing product. An analysis should be performed noting what is essential, what is good and worthy of emulation, and what is not so good.

The only explanation for DLB's lack in the HR20 is that the consensus (unfortunately committees don't have a very good track record in coming up with good design) was that DLB wasn't important.

No one bothered to do a market analysis to find what people liked in the preceding product, and what was lacking. Instead they came up with (IMHO) really stupid ideas like VOD which has no place in a DVR. It isn't "on demand" since you have to wait in some cases hours for programs to download. If you don't have access to a fast broadband connection, you are basically out of luck.

I believe that the mistaken notion that the new HR20 needed VOD to compete with cable is what scotched DLB. DirecTV will probably never come out and admit to it, but it seems obvious.

Although it is still officially "Beta" software, I don't think many are going to find it a compelling reason to come to DirecTV. In order to get it to work, they had to compress the hell out of the programs resulting in a picture so soft that it isn't even comparable to standard definition.

The price of DLB was VOD. And that' why we won't get DLB until and unless DirecTV figures out that VOD is a turkey.

[poppo]

well, as a statistician (and I think we had this discussion earlier in the thread), this poll is taken by a large enough sample (3,000+) that you can make a very strong argument that the masses DO want DLB...

about the only hole you can punch in the argument is that maybe those who do not want it simply didn't vote...but given that more than 500 voted that way, that argument is tenuous at best...


The other hole is that the people voting that it is as must are mostly those who had it before with Tivo and have migrated over to this forum. So IMO the sample group is somewhat biased. Ask 3000 people who never had it before and most would probably not even care especially since there is such an easy work around.

[Lord Vader]

But explain to people what it is and how it works and I'd bet the farm that they'd prefer it over not having it.

[Tom Robertson]

The other hole is that the people voting that it is as must are mostly those who had it before with Tivo and have migrated over to this forum. So IMO the sample group is somewhat biased. Ask 3000 people who never had it before and most would probably not even care especially since there is such an easy work around.As I've stated before, none of the workarounds apply to my use. So I'll have to keep hoping for the real thing. :)

Happy Holidays!
Tom

[inkahauts]

If it came to that, I'd give up some of those extra new features just to get back DLB. My HR10's power supply went bad last weekend and I lived without my HR10 and solely with my HR20 for a week before I got my replacement power supply in. I just flat out cannot live with DLB. My TiVo is now fixed and all if right with the world again. The HR20 will be my secondary DVR until my HR10 is pulled from my cold dead hands or when they implement DLB on the HR20! Period.

I like DLB, don't get me wrong. But I can only justify using it during sports programing. Am I the only one that see DLB as only a benefit to sports, especially during playoffs... Of course me pointing this out, DirecTV being the sports leader, you would think they would bring this into the HR20 within the next few months...

I will say I much prefer the HR20 and would rather gain all of its capabilities at the loss of DLB, if thats the reality, but I have some hope for DLB...

[ToddinVA]

I like DLB, don't get me wrong. But I can only justify using it during sports programing. Am I the only one that see DLB as only a benefit to sports, especially during playoffs... Of course me pointing this out, DirecTV being the sports leader, you would think they would bring this into the HR20 within the next few months...

I will say I much prefer the HR20 and would rather gain all of its capabilities at the loss of DLB, if thats the reality, but I have some hope for DLB...

I actually use DLB for news/business programs more than anything else. :lol:

[jheda]

God bless you Tom, and God bless the BJ ignore list....Boltjames,

What is your agenda with the post you've made? If, in your opinion we who want DLB are whining, does it make ANY sense to whine about whine? :) (And how do I get myself out of the trap of taking it to a third level?) :)

As moderators, we've chosen to ask that the DLB material be contained to one thread at this point. Just as we try to keep other discussions collected for simplicity. Part of that simplicity might be to just ignore the whole discussion if you are so anti-DLB or at least anti-DLB discussion. (A friendly moderator nudge.)

One more point, a sample size of over 3,000 can very accurately represent the 17M DIRECTV customers. That is larger than the sample size for some national political polls! That said, this is a very skewed group from whom to draw a sample from. No doubt about it.

So then we look at the numbers themselves. A very large group want it, a very, very small group don't. A medium sized group don't care. My take is that the people here are likely going to think ahead of the joe 6 pack in features. What we want today, they will want tomorrow.

Once I showed DLB to my Dad, he jumped all over it. He held off on his HR20 acquisition as long as he could, partly because of the lack of DLB.

So, Boltjames, please let us DLB people have our one thread. If you have logic to add to a conversation, go for it. Otherwise, please keep things clean.

Thanks,
Tom

[poppo]

But explain to people what it is and how it works and I'd bet the farm that they'd prefer it over not having it.

Perhaps they would vote that it would be ok. But I doubt most would call it a must have. I've owned Tivos for many years and never once had the need for it. But then again, I'm not a sports nut and I use my DVRs as DVRs and not to watch live TV. ;)

[beer_geek]

I completely agree with the ignore list. However, what do you do when the wing nut flat out lies like he did in his post on 12/8 at 03:27 PM?

[jheda]

cant tell u, its ignored :) :) :) :)

I completely agree with the ignore list. However, what do you do when the wing nut flat out lies like he did in his post on 12/8 at 03:27 PM?

[Earl Bonovich]

Final... LAST WARNING.

Bring the topic back to DLB... or this thread will be closed for good.
REPORT THE POSTs so they can be reviewed by the staff.

[kanderna]

Final... LAST WARNING.

Bring the topic back to DLB... or this thread will be closed for good.
REPORT THE POSTs so they can be reviewed by the staff.

I like DLB. It is good. ;)

[Fenway]

Because that have chosen NOT to include DLB... that it..
That is the WHY...

As for "WHY" that was there decision... Well.. that answer can't be given.

Why can't that answer be given? I keep hanging around in this topic hoping that one day you will tell us the reasoning. And it seems that you are the only one here who is privy to the information.

[Earl Bonovich]

Why can't that answer be given? I keep hanging around in this topic hoping that one day you will tell us the reasoning. And it seems that you are the only one here who is privy to the information.

Plain and simple: Because I have been told that it can't be shared.

[grantyn]

I just "upgraded" to the HR21 after 4 years as a TiVo customer, first with a separate Sony Box, then later with the DirecTivo HD DVR.

I really would like to return it. The lack of DLB is a deal buster. Its archaic menu structure is stupid. Having to unlock a channel every time I switch away from it and come back is more than annoying. Where's the OTA tuner? The list goes on. And I had to pay for this POS. I'm not sure the added HDTV channels are worth it.

Are there any other options out there? I'm pretty much ready to dump DirecTV after being a customer for 12 years.

[Earl Bonovich]

HR21 has no OTA tuner. A solution is planned, but is not available as yet.

"Unlock" a channel every time you switch? Please explain.

There are no other options, except for the HR20 if you must have an OTA tuner today, but everything else would be the same.

[sunking]

Plain and simple: Because I have been told that it can't be shared.

Come on Earl, get with the program. When they say stuff like that what they really mean is 'leak this to the the NY Times' ;) .

[grantyn]

HR21 has no OTA tuner. A solution is planned, but is not available as yet.

"Unlock" a channel every time you switch? Please explain.

There are no other options, except for the HR20 if you must have an OTA tuner today, but everything else would be the same.

I want to limit my kid's access to content rated for "mature" audiences. If I do that I have to enter a passcode each time I try to access a channel that is blocked. The DirecTiVo HD DVR would unlock the whole receiver for 4 hours with one passcode entry. I looks like the HR21 has a similar feature, but it's buried in the setup menu. One other issue with the parental lock is that the guide won't show titles of blocked content. What's the point of that? I still want to know what's on and I don't care if the kids see the title as long as they can't watch it.

As far as options were concerned, I wasn't referring to D* equipment or content. I'm talking about dropping D* completely and going to cable or a DBS competitor.

[Earl Bonovich]

I want to limit my kid's access to content rated for "mature" audiences. If I do that I have to enter a passcode each time I try to access a channel that is blocked. The DirecTiVo HD DVR would unlock the whole receiver for 4 hours with one passcode entry. I looks like the HR21 has a similar feature, but it's buried in the setup menu. One other issue with the parental lock is that the guide won't show titles of blocked content. What's the point of that? I still want to know what's on and I don't care if the kids see the title as long as they can't watch it.

As far as options were concerned, I wasn't referring to D* equipment or content. I'm talking about dropping D* completely and going to cable or a DBS competitor.

As for the unlock... yes, it has been a request to add the unlock for 4 hours to the pop-up dialog.

As for the blocked title.... there is no perfect solution to that... we have users on here... that WANT the title to be blocked when the parental controls are turned on.

[sunking]

As for the unlock... yes, it has been a request to add the unlock for 4 hours to the pop-up dialog.

As for the blocked title.... there is no perfect solution to that... we have users on here... that WANT the title to be blocked when the parental controls are turned on.

Well, the perfect solution is to add the option to block titles to the parental controls section. That was a toughy. :)

[Splendor]

All I want for Christmas is DLB....DLB....DLB....

[looter]

Try the ignore function. It works beautifully.
Thanks for the tip. That is some technology I can back!

Where's the DLB preference on the HR21? ;) That would be a great Easter egg.

[jahgreen]

well, as a statistician (and I think we had this discussion earlier in the thread), this poll is taken by a large enough sample (3,000+) that you can make a very strong argument that the masses DO want DLB...

about the only hole you can punch in the argument is that maybe those who do not want it simply didn't vote...but given that more than 500 voted that way, that argument is tenuous at best...

Why doesn't the selection bias (both as to who is a DBSTalk member and who chooses to vote) invalidate the statistical significance of the poll?

If it were a random sample, it would be far more than needed for statistical significance. But random it ain't.

[looter]

Why doesn't the selection bias (both as to who is a DBSTalk member and who chooses to vote) invalidate the statistical significance of the poll?

If it were a random sample, it would be far more than needed for statistical significance. But random it ain't.

Yeah, it is a poll of DBStalk users. It is that simple.

It shows that many DVR+ owners want DLB.

If the poll results were reversed I doubt anyone would be arguing against using a poll.

The poll results are obvious and don't take much interpreting.

[Doug Brott]

Yeah, it is a poll of DBStalk users. It is that simple.

It shows that many DVR+ owners want DLB.

If the poll results were reversed I doubt anyone would be arguing against using a poll.

The poll results are obvious and don't take much interpreting.

I'd actually like to close this thread and start anew. I can tell you that I would pick something different today than I did over a year ago. Heck, this thread was started nearly 16 months ago .. Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:


I already have switch services to get DLBs
I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
I really don't care one way or the other
I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
I abstain

[snork]

I'd like to add my opinion (which is mirrored by so many others) that the lack of DLB on the HR20 is just bizarre. Even more bizarre is the apparent fact that the Powers That Be seem to have a reason for it. Most bizarre is that the Powers That Be won't even tell us what that reason is. We sit here scratching our heads trying to make sense of it but there is none. If any rational explanation were had, at least some of us might go "Oh, OK"; the way things stand now is just STUPID.

[prestoru]

I'd actually like to close this thread and start anew. I can tell you that I would pick something different today than I did over a year ago. Heck, this thread was started nearly 16 months ago .. Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:


I already have switch services to get DLBs
I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
I really don't care one way or the other
I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
I abstain


how about : I would switch if I didn't have the 2 year commitment from getiing a DVR I didn't know lacked DLB. Overwhelming reasons seems to be too vague.

[rapjrhb]

I'd actually like to close this thread and start anew. I can tell you that I would pick something different today than I did over a year ago. Heck, this thread was started nearly 16 months ago .. Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:


I already have switch services to get DLBs
I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
I really don't care one way or the other
I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
I abstain


Or:

I kept my other DVR so that I can have DLB at times and increased HD content at other times.

[looter]

Or:

I kept my other DVR so that I can have DLB at times and increased HD content at other times.

Yes. Lack of DLB is the main reason I still have my HR10. That and the lack of OTA on the HR21.

Otherwise, I'd get rid of it and get a 2nd HR21.

[boltjames]

Tom Robertson Boltjames, What is your agenda with the post you've made? If, in your opinion we who want DLB are whining, does it make ANY sense to whine about whine? :) (And how do I get myself out of the trap of taking it to a third level?) :)

I'd like to think I'm not whining about all the whining but rather pointing out that since this thread has been so played out over the course of a year and a half that it's come down to nothing but whining by the pro-DLB faction that it's no longer a useful thread for the forum and should be re-focused to something constructive again.

As moderators, we've chosen to ask that the DLB material be contained to one thread at this point. Just as we try to keep other discussions collected for simplicity. Part of that simplicity might be to just ignore the whole discussion if you are so anti-DLB or at least anti-DLB discussion. (A friendly moderator nudge.)

I try, very hard, to ignore the DLB discussion, but it sits there with 100,000 page views and is as noticable as a gorilla in an anthill. If you're a newb, just got your first HDTV, and you're considering all your programming options and land here to make a decision on D* as a content provider, WHAM, there it is, sitting like a giant pimple on a supermodel's face, the DLB thread.

It makes a newb think there is something dreadfully wrong with the HR20 and that's the crux of my dislike of this thread. Instead of welcoming newbs with great news about how good the HR20 is, this unusually large thread commands too much attention and can make them think the HR20 and D* isn't a good option for them.

One more point, a sample size of over 3,000 can very accurately represent the 17M DIRECTV customers. That is larger than the sample size for some national political polls! That said, this is a very skewed group from whom to draw a sample from. No doubt about it.

I think we're on the same page here. A sample size of 3k can indeed be accurate, but the skewing of this forum towards the hobbiest/hacker/tweaker renders it an incomplete sample. Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't know what a discussion forum is, let alone find their way here. The poll simply says that a small faction of D* power users are unhappy and that's not enough to move the needle in D*'s mind. Again, I'm told, D* reads this forum often and they know the plight of the DLB user. They still do not make this a priority.

So then we look at the numbers themselves. A very large group want it, a very, very small group don't. A medium sized group don't care. My take is that the people here are likely going to think ahead of the joe 6 pack in features. What we want today, they will want tomorrow.

Well, seeing that every D* receiver I've owned since 1999 has had DLB hopping in some form or another including my beloved Sony T-60's I'd think that "tomorrow" is today, no?

Once I showed DLB to my Dad, he jumped all over it. He held off on his HR20 acquisition as long as he could, partly because of the lack of DLB.

It's something you don't want until you have it and then you take it for granted until its taken away. And when its taken away, that's when it's Decision Time.

And that's my point here: Decision Time is not fairly stated in this thread. There is no equal time for all the great innovations that have been added to D*'s DVR. Instead, its all about the one feature that was taken away. There isn't even a poll option that says "even though DLB is gone and I miss it there is so much more good in the HR20 that I'm going to give D* a pass for not putting DLB in".

Otherwise, please keep things clean

If you read this thread in its entirety, I think you'll find that I'm the one defending D* and the HR20 and then am enduring personal attacks to which I do not respond. I think that's pretty "clean".

So, Boltjames, please let us DLB people have our one thread. If you have logic to add to a conversation, go for it.

It's your show, and you certainly have your one thread, but I think it's post count reset to zero. It's just too noticable up there, screaming to all the newbs "check me out there's a problem here!" and that's not good for anyone.

There were 3 agendas for this thread:

1. Place to inform people that DLB is not part of the new D* DVR and they are aware and so please don't start a new thread.

2. Place for DLB people to talk about their unhappiness. This is now played out.

3. Draw attention to the plight of DLB so that D* will take notice. This has been accomplished.

So, if you really think about it, #1 could be addressed by a closed sticky with the information about "DLB not on the HR20". In fact, in the two weeks that Earl closed the thread, I don't recall a single DLB thread started in the subforum.

#3 has been accomplished and no good can come from another 100k page views.

#2 is all that's left, and that's a sad state for this forum. Not to mention that with the Tivo forums becoming a ghost town, all this thread does is provide a platform for the anti-D* people to complain about D* under the protected shroud of "wishing for DLB". It's a destructive thread masquerading as a constructive thread. It's fille dwith anti-D* agendas and is not good for the newbs.

Thanks, Tom

You're the boss, it's your show, and I love DBS. But for the good of all the newbs who come here, this DLB thread should be closed, reset to "0" views, and made a sticky. This would achieve the primary goal of communicating the issue to the community without it continuing as an anti-D* posting opportunity.

And why do I care this much? Well, this hits home for me because I was one of those newbs. I was one of those people who listened to the rhetoric on Tivo forums, was convinced that the UI and the missing DLB was an HR20 killer, and I was shaking in my boots and losing sleep over dropping my HR10. And all that stress caused by all that deliberate miscommunication was completely unneccessary; the HR20 is a fantastic device. We should celebrate what it does, not whine about what it does not.

BJ

[poppo]

Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:


I already have switch services to get DLBs
I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
I really don't care one way or the other
I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
I abstain



The choices I would like to see. :)

I have used DLBs and it's a must
I have used DLBs and it's not a big deal
I have never used DLBs and I 'think' it's a must (because most here say so and I have no free will)
I have never used DLBs and I don't think it's a big deal since there is an easy work around.

[jheda]

Doug

On your poll i would like to vote: I really, really want DLB -, but I'm more excited about other features first! :=)..but i would choose the DLB is nice and I would use it........

If they repair SLB. Ill be one happy camperand would be satisfied without DLB!!!!!

[ub1934]

Doug

On your poll i would like to vote: I really, really want DLB -, but I'm more excited about other features first! :=)

If they repair SLB. Ill be one happy camper!!!!!

It still will not be as good as a real DLB .

[Doug Brott]

It still will not be as good as a real DLB .

I was a big rebel rouser for DLB last year .. I let go at some point .. meaning I just accepted that it won't be there and moved on .. If DLB shows up, then great .. I'll likely use it. But there are so many great features, IMHO, on the HR20 that I'm OK if there is no DLB. I dual-record when I need it and I'm happy.

[jheda]

Not quite, agreed, but with SLB only one show will have to be recorded; so we can watch two games at once, not eat up the hard drive and be pretty close, IMHO.It still will not be as good as a real DLB .

[jheda]

Agreed. And if SLB is implimented you will only have to single record. I was a big rebel rouser for DLB last year .. I let go at some point .. meaning I just accepted that it won't be there and moved on .. If DLB shows up, then great .. I'll likely use it. But there are so many great features, IMHO, on the HR20 that I'm OK if there is no DLB. I dual-record when I need it and I'm happy.

[Doug Brott]

Not quite, agreed, but with SLB only one show will have to be recorded; so we can watch two games at once, not eat up the hard drive and be pretty close, IMHO.

That's a good point as well .. a fully fixed SLB will be really close.

[mtnagel]

I'd also like to see a new poll as my answer would change from how I voted before.

[Mike Bertelson]

I'd actually like to close this thread and start anew. I can tell you that I would pick something different today than I did over a year ago. Heck, this thread was started nearly 16 months ago .. Here's some of the choices that I would use if we were to start over today:


I already have switch services to get DLBs
I've gotta have DLB - I will switch to another service
I would switch services, but there are overwhelming reasons I am staying.
I really, really want DLB but it is what it is - I'm not happy about it
DLB is nice and I would use it, but I'm more excited about other features first
I really don't care one way or the other
I don't want DLB on my DVR+ series box
I abstain


I really like this idea.

I have a question though....

Should it clarify DLB or even call it something else?

Everyone I know with a dual tuner DVR(with DLB) knows they can switch between tuners. However, few know it's called Dual Live Buffers.

I did research on other DVRs. In those with DLB the manual calls it something like "watching two shows at once" or "Simultaneously Watch Two Programs". Heck, at lot with TiVo found it by accident.

Not really sure any of this has any bearing but maybe if we make it as general as possible we may be able to get a more normalized analysis.

We have the numbers for a good sample size. It's just the sample makeup that's in question. Nielson uses ≈10,000 households for the whole country so we should be able to make it work.

Mike

[vankai]

Should it clarify DLB or even call it something else?

Everyone I know with a dual tuner DVR(with DLB) knows they can switch between tuners. However, few know it's called Dual Live Buffers.

I did research on other DVRs. In those with DLB the manual calls it something like "watching two shows at once" or "Simultaneously Watch Two Programs". Heck, at lot with TiVo found it by accident.

Not really sure any of this has any bearing but maybe if we make it as general as possible we may be able to get a more normalized analysis.



Dual Live TV
DLTV ??

Live Toggle TV
LTTV ??


.

[Mike Bertelson]

Dual Live TV
DLTV ??

Live Toggle TV
LTTV ??

Ok, maybe calling it something else wasn't my best idea. :sure:

Although, Toggle TV is alliteratively interesting. :)

I do think it needs some further clarification though.

Mike

[General Custer]

Plain and simple: Because I have been told that it can't be shared.

The fact that Directv won't let you announce why it is not being implemented means that it is likely a reason that most here would consider ridiculous and unsatisfactory. If they had a good reasonable understandable explanation, they would allow it to be announced in order to calm everyone down.

[poppo]

The fact that Directv won't let you announce why it is not being implemented means that it is likely a reason that most here would consider ridiculous and unsatisfactory. If they had a good reasonable understandable explanation, they would allow it to be announced in order to calm everyone down.

I don't know why everyone these days feel that they are somehow entitled to explanations for everything. The company made a decision, and they also decided not to share it. Deal with it. Perhaps their reason for not sharing is because so many are are being immature with their constant whining about it and calling them names etc.

[ShiningBengal]

I don't know why everyone these days feel that they are somehow entitled to explanations for everything. The company made a decision, and they also decided not to share it. Deal with it. Perhaps their reason for not sharing is because so many are are being immature with their constant whining about it and calling them names etc.

Of course DirecTV has no obligation to say anything at all. Of course, the fact that they won't say anything is what has led to all the endless speculation and frustration.

My own speculation is that their particular implementation of VOD has made it difficult or impossible to have DLB coexistant on the HR20. I think that letting that cat out of the bag would cause more consternation than saying nothing, because I doubt very much that VOD will ever attract any kind of regular usage.

If indeed this is the case (and I really, really think it is), I can only ask rhetorically, "why in the heck would they give up DLB for this nonsense?"

The "beta" release of VOD is certainly not very impressive, and it kind of begs the question, "WHY?" It isn't true VOD because it isn't "on demand" when it takes hours to download a 30 minute overly compressed less-than-standard definition show. And this is why I have an HDTV display, and an HDTV DVR???? Oh, I see, there will be HDTV in the future. What? To take a day to download a 90 minute HDTV show?

After looking at the offerings and going through the expense and frustration of setting up a wireless ethernet adaptor, I'm kicking myself for wasting the money and time to set it up. I'll never use it.

I doubt very much that DirecTV will ever publicly admit to such folly.

[anubys]

Why doesn't the selection bias (both as to who is a DBSTalk member and who chooses to vote) invalidate the statistical significance of the poll?

If it were a random sample, it would be far more than needed for statistical significance. But random it ain't.

sorry that I've been away...I've seen this comment 3-4 times already (also mentioned is the skewing of the sample or that the sample is not random)...

ok...the sample is not scientific (i.e. we did not look at the population of DirecTV customers, select a sample that is representative, and conduct the survey)...a representative sample would have the same proportions of white, black, hispanic...or male/female...etc.

certainly that was not done...

however, non-random/skewed assumes that the survey population has something in it that would make their answer to the survey different from the full population...in this case, the relative tech knowledge is in some way making us say "yes" when most people would say "no" to the same question...bias and skewness only matters when it would introduce an answer different from the norm (e.g. ask only KKK members if they like black people, to make an extreme example)

I don't see that...there's no inherent bias to being on DBStalk that would make us different from the population for that particular question...

thus, you can safely conclude that this answer can give a pretty darn good indication on what the population would answer when given the facts...allowing for sample error, you can be confident that at least two-thirds of the Directv customers would consider DLB a MUST HAVE...

[tiger2005]

Excluding DLB created two major problems for DirecTV IMO.

1.) Its upset a large portion of their customer base that they wouldn't like to upset. Those purchasing their 'Extra' sports packages like Sunday Ticket, Center Ice, etc. DirecTV has always strived to be the 'leader in sports programming', yet the customers that buy these packages are now constrained by a box that doesn't allow these features.

2.) Its hindered the adoption of the HR20 because people won't replace their HR10 for a box that doesn't have DLB. Its impossible to know how many that number would actually be, but based on the number still claiming to use the HR10 on these forums, it has to be much higher than DirecTV would like. Other than DLB, and possibly missed recordings although I haven't had any in months so I'm not sure that is still a large issue, I can't think of another single reason not to 'upgrade' to the HR20. And yes, I think DLB is that important not to move to the HR20.

[ShiningBengal]

Excluding DLB created two major problems for DirecTV IMO.

1.) Its upset a large portion of their customer base that they wouldn't like to upset. Those purchasing their 'Extra' sports packages like Sunday Ticket, Center Ice, etc. DirecTV has always strived to be the 'leader in sports programming', yet the customers that buy these packages are now constrained by a box that doesn't allow these features.

2.) Its hindered the adoption of the HR20 because people won't replace their HR10 for a box that doesn't have DLB. Its impossible to know how many that number would actually be, but based on the number still claiming to use the HR10 on these forums, it has to be much higher than DirecTV would like. Other than DLB, and possibly missed recordings although I haven't had any in months so I'm not sure that is still a large issue, I can't think of another single reason not to 'upgrade' to the HR20. And yes, I think DLB is that important not to move to the HR20.

I think it would be very easy for DirecTV to know how many HR10's are in use. Every one of them is addressable via smart card. They could also see how many HR10's are in use in households that have HR20's. If they can't do this, then they really have some major problems in managing their customer account base.

[jheda]

Well said; one "anectodal example of a "techie" who does not have a great self use for DLB, is Earl himself. No one can evidence a tech bias for interest in DLB.

I myself found this site as a nontechie looking for answers a year ago as to why i couldnt utilize the dual tuners.

I will say again... if SLB becomes perfected, where we can switch between one show recorded and one show "live" with the buffer holding the pause points on both, allowing to switch between two shows, I myself and many others will be satisfied. I am so happy with the HR20 in every other way.


sorry that I've been away...I've seen this comment 3-4 times already (also mentioned is the skewing of the sample or that the sample is not random)...

ok...the sample is not scientific (i.e. we did not look at the population of DirecTV customers, select a sample that is representative, and conduct the survey)...a representative sample would have the same proportions of white, black, hispanic...or male/female...etc.

certainly that was not done...

however, non-random/skewed assumes that the survey population has something in it that would make their answer to the survey different from the full population...in this case, the relative tech knowledge is in some way making us say "yes" when most people would say "no" to the same question...bias and skewness only matters when it would introduce an answer different from the norm (e.g. ask only KKK members if they like black people, to make an extreme example)

I don't see that...there's no inherent bias to being on DBStalk that would make us different from the population for that particular question...

thus, you can safely conclude that this answer can give a pretty darn good indication on what the population would answer when given the facts...allowing for sample error, you can be confident that at least two-thirds of the Directv customers would consider DLB a MUST HAVE...

[grantyn]

But there are so many great features, IMHO, on the HR20 that I'm OK if there is no DLB. I dual-record when I need it and I'm happy.

I'm still a newb with the HR21. I've been very underwhelmed by it so far.

Please tell me what are the great features of this DVR other than access to more HD channels.

[Mike Bertelson]

Excluding DLB created two major problems for DirecTV IMO.

1.) Its upset a large portion of their customer base that they wouldn't like to upset. Those purchasing their 'Extra' sports packages like Sunday Ticket, Center Ice, etc. DirecTV has always strived to be the 'leader in sports programming', yet the customers that buy these packages are now constrained by a box that doesn't allow these features.

2.) Its hindered the adoption of the HR20 because people won't replace their HR10 for a box that doesn't have DLB. Its impossible to know how many that number would actually be, but based on the number still claiming to use the HR10 on these forums, it has to be much higher than DirecTV would like. Other than DLB, and possibly missed recordings although I haven't had any in months so I'm not sure that is still a large issue, I can't think of another single reason not to 'upgrade' to the HR20. And yes, I think DLB is that important not to move to the HR20.

I agree it's upset most people who use DLB (me being one of them).

However, given the choice of DLB or an additional 55 HD channels (based on what I have and not counting PPV & out of area RSNs), I think the new HD channel win.

I think any hesitation on the part of HR10 owners will be overcome by the new and upcomming HD channels. It's just a matter of time. :D

Mike

[jheda]

First and foremost, welcome!!!! Look at our "newbie" welcome thread. Also see our tips and tricks thread if you havent to date. Lastly, if you havent already and are enjoying our site, join the club and support it for a mere $15!!!

To answer your question, i will do it in comparison to my directtivo, and leave out the HD part as you have mentioned it...

1) much faster guide
2) while viewing guide "picture in guide" .. i love that...
3) one button recording in the guide, for one show or season
4)easier menu acess
5) blue single line guide on bottom screeen

just a few. Ill let others add...

and again welcome!!

I'm still a newb with the HR21. I've been very underwhelmed by it so far.

Please tell me what are the great features of this DVR other than access to more HD channels.

[poppo]

I don't see that...there's no inherent bias to being on DBStalk that would make us different from the population for that particular question...


Again, I will disagree. I think most of the folks here have migrated from the HR10 and thus are biased to not having something they did before. Give 3000 people a HR20 that have never had a DVR before, wait a month and poll them. Sure some might say they would like it, but IMO most will have adapted using the work around. At least (IMO) the 'It's a must have' numbers would not be nearly as high.

Excluding DLB created two major problems for DirecTV IMO.

1.) Its upset a large portion of their customer base that they wouldn't like to upset.

It's funny that the 'Its upset a large portion of their customer base' is the same (IMO flawed) claim that the Tivo folks have tried to use to say that DirecTV will never survive the drop of the Tivo brand. But yet the subs keep increasing. <shrug>

[Lord Vader]

Again, I will disagree. I think most of the folks here have migrated from the HR10 and thus are biased to not having something they did before. Give 3000 people a HR20 that have never had a DVR before, wait a month and poll them. Sure some might say they would like it, but IMO most will have adapted using the work around. At least (IMO) the 'It's a must have' numbers would not be nearly as high.



It's funny that the 'Its upset a large portion of their customer base' is the same (IMO flawed) claim that the Tivo folks have tried to use to say that DirecTV will never survive the drop of the Tivo brand. But yet the subs keep increasing. <shrug>

Your post contradicts itself. How can those who have never had a DVR before even know what the workaround is. They'd have no knowledge of (a) how to use two tuners, (b) what a workaround even is, and (c) how to implement it.

[anubys]

Again, I will disagree. I think most of the folks here have migrated from the HR10 and thus are biased to not having something they did before. Give 3000 people a HR20 that have never had a DVR before, wait a month and poll them. Sure some might say they would like it, but IMO most will have adapted using the work around. At least (IMO) the 'It's a must have' numbers would not be nearly as high.

no, read my post again...I think what the results of this poll mean is that if you take a random Directv customer, tell them what DLB is, and ask them if they want it, at least two-thirds of them will say they must have it...

[Doug Brott]

As for it being a "must have" clearly, if that were the case, then the discussion would already be over .. Those who "must have" it will have moved on to another discussion area because they would no longer be with DIRECTV or would be using different hardware.

Certainly there are reasons to stay .. commitment term, HD, NFLST, etc. and those reasons outweigh the "must have" aspect of DLB. That said, clearly a number of people really, really want the feature .. There are some workarounds that really are not too bad (SLB getting fixed will make it even better), but I understand the issues with that .. bottom line is that if you take control of your viewing (what you can do) and adapt it really does become more enjoyable.

If DLB ever does make it in to the HR20 .. well, that would be icing on the cake at that point, right?

[say-what]

no, read my post again...I think what the results of this poll mean is that if you take a random Directv customer, tell them what DLB is, and ask them if they want it, at least two-thirds of them will say they must have it...Unfortunately, this poll is not made up of random DirecTV customers and really can't be extrapolated to the overall DirecTV customer base.

I've used DLB on my DirecTIVO's, but don't consider it a "must have" feature and certainly don't miss it on the HR20/21.

[General Custer]

I don't know why everyone these days feel that they are somehow entitled to explanations for everything. The company made a decision, and they also decided not to share it. Deal with it. Perhaps their reason for not sharing is because so many are are being immature with their constant whining about it and calling them names etc.

I didn't say that they had to annouce the reason.

But if there was a perfectly acceptable and reasonable explanation they would have announced why DLB is not there just to shut everyone up.

The fact that they choose not to announce it, as per their perogative, means they know that the end user will only be more upset by that announcement.

If the reason is becasue of VOD, then it is a real shame becasue most of that programming is a waste of time anyway. I especially have problems if they begin to charge for it as you have to pay a fee to an internet service provider for the bandwidth in the first place. You don't have to do the same with the cable company. I can't imagine they won't start to charge for this material and if they don't then they wasted these resources for no financial gain.

[Doug Brott]

I'm still a newb with the HR21. I've been very underwhelmed by it so far.

Please tell me what are the great features of this DVR other than access to more HD channels.

:welcome_s .. The HR21 is nice .. however, the feature set has not quite caught up to the HR20. That should happen soon and things will be improved over what you have now.

As for features ..


HD .. MPEG4 locals and dozens of new national channels
Faster menu functionality
overlap recording
one button Series Link setup


Those are a few .. The biggest being able to get the new HD channels.

Cheers.

[anubys]

Unfortunately, this poll is not made up of random DirecTV customers and really can't be extrapolated to the overall DirecTV customer base.

I've used DLB on my DirecTIVO's, but don't consider it a "must have" feature and certainly don't miss it on the HR20/21.

I've already addressed that point in my post...I've also stated my opinion as a statistician and given valid reasons behind that opinion...all you've now said is that you're part of the one-third that would not miss it...that's fine, but it's not a plausible argument that the poll results are not statistically significant...

[Doug Brott]

no, read my post again...I think what the results of this poll mean is that if you take a random Directv customer, tell them what DLB is, and ask them if they want it, at least two-thirds of them will say they must have it...

I understand what you are trying to say (race, etc.) about this being random. I do believe, however that there are other factors involved.

When the poll first started, there were only two options:

A must have and Don't really care about it.

I voted "A must have" If the third option were available when I voted, I would have chosen that one at the time as it most related to what my decision would be. Today, I would probably answer "Don't really care about it" because, quite frankly, I've given up - moved on and I'm happy with what the HR20 has become. The poll is also flawed because it is 16 months old and I wonder how accurate it could possibly be at this point ..

[poppo]

Your post contradicts itself. How can those who have never had a DVR before even know what the workaround is. They'd have no knowledge of (a) how to use two tuners, (b) what a workaround even is, and (c) how to implement it.

Simple. Use the unit for a while. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that there are two tuners. It won't take long to see that the buffer gets dumped when changing tuners. It would not take long for even the simplest minded person to think 'Hmm.. . I wonder if I record the shows, what will happen'. Thus the workaround would be found quite easily.

I actually was using this workaround when I first got dual tuners enabled on my DirecTivo years ago because when I would switch to the second tuner and change the channel, it often changed the channel on the other tuner instead (dumpling the buffer). So it took about 2 seconds to figure out that if I put the first tuner on record, a channel change on the second tuner would force that tuner to change instead of the first.

[Lord Vader]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that there are two tuners. It won't take long to see that the buffer gets dumped when changing tuners. It would not take long for even the simplest minded person to think 'Hmm.. . I wonder if I record the shows, what will happen'. Thus the workaround would be found quite easily.



Oh? Care to put money on that? Don't underestimate the lack of knowledge of the average DVR user when it comes to the finer points of such a device. Such person is not one who visits Internet forums like this one. Because of this, they tend to not be aware of many features or even things like DLB with which you and I have become familiar.

[kanderna]

Oh? Care to put money on that? Don't underestimate the lack of knowledge of the average DVR user when it comes to the finer points of such a device. Such person is not one who visits Internet forums like this one. Because of this, they tend to not be aware of many features or even things like DLB with which you and I have become familiar.

This was exactly my thought. I could immediately come up with at least 10 people who wouldn't think to do that. They're not stupid by any stretch of the imagination, they are just basic TV watchers who happen to own a DVR, aren't techies, and don't go searching for info on internet message boards.

[Lord Vader]

I can point to my mother, father, sister, brother, and sister-in-law, all who live in a TIVO and/or HR20 household but don't even know what the term "DLB" or "Dual Live Buffer" is or means, or how it works. All they have is some basic knowledge of being able to flip back and forth between the two tuners and retaining the buffer. My father, however, uses the "prev channel" button, thereby deleting the buffer. When I try to explain this whole thing to him, he tells me, "It's the same thing."

No it's not, but what more can I do to explain it? Of the aforementioned people, only my sister has the most knowledge of this, and that is limited anyway.

[boltjames]

:welcome_s .. The HR21 is nice .. however, the feature set has not quite caught up to the HR20. That should happen soon and things will be improved over what you have now.

As for features ..


HD .. MPEG4 locals and dozens of new national channels
Faster menu functionality
overlap recording
one button Series Link setup


Those are a few .. The biggest being able to get the new HD channels.

Cheers.

Do not forget:


Native Mode (much better picture quality over a good HDTV)
"Back" Button (a huge win over the HR10, much easier to navigate)
90 Minute Single Buffer (Catching the end of a movie? Go back to start)
5 Previous Channels w/Guide (Jump to last 5 channels and see what's on them too)
Softkey Menu's (Colored icons give you much better menu functionality tailored to your location)


Lot's more, too.

BJ

[boltjames]

I can point to my mother, father, sister, brother, and sister-in-law, all who live in a TIVO and/or HR20 household but don't even know what the term "DLB" or "Dual Live Buffer" is or means, or how it works. All they have is some basic knowledge of being able to flip back and ofrth between the two tuners and retaining the buffer. My father, however, uses the "prev channel" button, thereby deleting the buffer. When I try to explain this whole thing to him, he tells me, "It's the same thing."

No it's not, but what more can I do to explain it? Of the aforementioned people, only my sister has the most knowledge of this, and that is limited anyway.

Further proof that Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't know what DLB is and don't want it even when it's explained to them.

Why? The entire purpose of a DVR is to allow you to record something while you watch something else. The concept of constant 'flipping' between two simultaneous programs is confusing for the average Joe.

BJ

[boltjames]

This was exactly my thought. I could immediately come up with at least 10 people who wouldn't think to do that. They're not stupid by any stretch of the imagination, they are just basic TV watchers who happen to own a DVR, aren't techies, and don't go searching for info on internet message boards.

Exactly.

A person who is happy with their HR20 has no need to go to a message board to share their glee. Like a toaster, the DVR just works the way its supposed to. I didn't go to the Dualit Toaster forum and start a thread called "Woo Hoo! I Made Toast This Morning!". I take the basic functionality as a given.

Same for the HR20. Only those that have a gripe or are power users looking for hacks/tweaks come here. That's why the "poll" is not a good representation of the true HR20 userbase.

BJ

[boltjames]

Simple. Use the unit for a while. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that there are two tuners. It won't take long to see that the buffer gets dumped when changing tuners. It would not take long for even the simplest minded person to think 'Hmm.. . I wonder if I record the shows, what will happen'. Thus the workaround would be found quite easily.

I actually was using this workaround when I first got dual tuners enabled on my DirecTivo years ago because when I would switch to the second tuner and change the channel, it often changed the channel on the other tuner instead (dumpling the buffer). So it took about 2 seconds to figure out that if I put the first tuner on record, a channel change on the second tuner would force that tuner to change instead of the first.

One of the fundamental issues preventing DLB from being implemented is that the HR20 is designed for Mr. & Mrs. Accord, not Mr. Wealthy Videophile.

Remember the VCR? How the typical person never used it to record TV, just play back rented movies? How the clock would blink 12:00 because they were too unsophisticated to figure out how to timeshift TV shows?

That's the person that the HR20 is geared for, and that person is just happy as a clam to have a reliable VCR in their lives. And these people are used to jumping back/forth between two programs without any buffering capability. It's not a feature that's intuitive, so it's not a feature that they long for. Most of us in here didn't even know it existed on our T60's or HR10's until we hit the 'down' key accidentally and said "whoa, what was that?".

BJ

[boltjames]

I understand what you are trying to say (race, etc.) about this being random. I do believe, however that there are other factors involved.

When the poll first started, there were only two options:

A must have and Don't really care about it.

I voted "A must have" If the third option were available when I voted, I would have chosen that one at the time as it most related to what my decision would be. Today, I would probably answer "Don't really care about it" because, quite frankly, I've given up - moved on and I'm happy with what the HR20 has become. The poll is also flawed because it is 16 months old and I wonder how accurate it could possibly be at this point ..

Doug:

You're on the right track and best of all you're a mod. Time to close this thread and start a new one with the following purposes only:

1. Place for newbs to get the message that DLB isn't available so they don't create new posts on the board.

2. Place for a new poll with many more options including "I'm so happy with the other new features I don't miss DLB at all".

3. Place for updates from the likes of Earl on the true, non-speculated status of DLB functionality.

This will eliminate the biggest issues with this thread:

1. Platform for complainers who no longer have an audience at Tivo forums as it's all but a ghost town.

2. Huge post count, making this non-issue look like some major flaw in the product and thus dissuading potential D* customers from jumping onboard.

3. Repetitive whining from the same handful of Tivo loyalists, most of whom don't even own an HR20.

Please consider this, discuss with the other mods, and respond.

Thank you.

BJ

[inkahauts]

Of course DirecTV has no obligation to say anything at all. Of course, the fact that they won't say anything is what has led to all the endless speculation and frustration.

My own speculation is that their particular implementation of VOD has made it difficult or impossible to have DLB coexistant on the HR20. I think that letting that cat out of the bag would cause more consternation than saying nothing, because I doubt very much that VOD will ever attract any kind of regular usage.

If indeed this is the case (and I really, really think it is), I can only ask rhetorically, "why in the heck would they give up DLB for this nonsense?"

The "beta" release of VOD is certainly not very impressive, and it kind of begs the question, "WHY?" It isn't true VOD because it isn't "on demand" when it takes hours to download a 30 minute overly compressed less-than-standard definition show. And this is why I have an HDTV display, and an HDTV DVR???? Oh, I see, there will be HDTV in the future. What? To take a day to download a 90 minute HDTV show?

After looking at the offerings and going through the expense and frustration of setting up a wireless ethernet adaptor, I'm kicking myself for wasting the money and time to set it up. I'll never use it.

I doubt very much that DirecTV will ever publicly admit to such folly.

I must ask, what makes you think DOD has anything to do with DLB, other than they are spending the time to implement one before the other. I see the fact that they want to allow users to go back in time up to 90 mins more of a factor than anything else (vs the 30mins on a tivo), and still this is not a real technical limitations reason. And you noted that VOD is in beta, so yeah there isn't much there now, but wait until a couple months after it is no longer beta. I have a feeling the HD content will be as plentiful as the SD.

And if it is taking you hours to download a 30 min sd program, that probably has more to do with your internet speed than anything else. I can start a sd download for a 30 min program and start watching it within in 2 to 10 mins and never catch up... HD will obviously take a bit longer....

I believe VOD will be as popular as watching a regular channel within a 5 to 10 years. Lets be honest, when you see people walking down the street or driving in their cars, what are they listening to, the radio or their downloaded music on some sort of MP3 or ipod? I believe its becoming a generational thing, downloading everything that entertains us...

[Tom Robertson]

Further proof that Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't know what DLB is and don't want it even when it's explained to them.

Why? The entire purpose of a DVR is to allow you to record something while you watch something else. The concept of constant 'flipping' between two simultaneous programs is confusing for the average Joe.

BJ
Hmm... I take Lord Vader's example that average Joe's can learn to use Dual Buffers. Just his Dad won't. :)

Exactly.

A person who is happy with their HR20 has no need to go to a message board to share their glee. Like a toaster, the DVR just works the way its supposed to. I didn't go to the Dualit Toaster forum and start a thread called "Woo Hoo! I Made Toast This Morning!". I take the basic functionality as a given.

Same for the HR20. Only those that have a gripe or are power users looking for hacks/tweaks come here. That's why the "poll" is not a good representation of the true HR20 userbase.

BJSo you're are comparing a DVR to a toaster? That seems to explain a lot... :D

I contend that one of the key original selling points of DVRs was not only to replace the VCR as a recorder, but also to replace it as a receiver and enhancing the live viewing experience. Why else would Tivo (and others) promote ANY live buffer, trickplay, ability to pause during phone calls (and bio breaks), etc?

To me DVR does not mean record only, it means Digital Video Receiver. I watch quite a bit of live TV in the background so like to trickplay when, halfway thru a story it catches my attention; and dual buffers of live TV during sports.

[inkahauts]

One of the fundamental issues preventing DLB from being implemented is that the HR20 is designed for Mr. & Mrs. Accord, not Mr. Wealthy Videophile.

Remember the VCR? How the typical person never used it to record TV, just play back rented movies? How the clock would blink 12:00 because they were too unsophisticated to figure out how to timeshift TV shows?

That's the person that the HR20 is geared for, and that person is just happy as a clam to have a reliable VCR in their lives. And these people are used to jumping back/forth between two programs without any buffering capability. It's not a feature that's intuitive, so it's not a feature that they long for. Most of us in here didn't even know it existed on our T60's or HR10's until we hit the 'down' key accidentally and said "whoa, what was that?".



BJ


I still believe this is the biggest fallacy to ever hit the entertainment industry, and NO one ever really wanted it investigated, because it would have played major havoc with neilson ratings and advertising dollars, because they saw back then that that market could kill there revenue, as they have said DVR's that skip commercials do today. Many may not have set a clock, but everyone I know always new how to put in a tape and hit record on the vcr, while watching a different station on the tv. Neilson is finally starting to realize this and is making extremely massive changes to its metering systems and data collecting, and its only happening because the networks are scared to death that their advertising revenue per show is dropping like a rock for live telecasts. I believe that the consumer is way more sophisticate than we give them credit for when it comes to recording tv. If there is something on tv they want to watch, then low and behold they will figure out how to record it if they aren't going to be around to watch it...

Just like, if a person is savvy enough to want a DLB environment to watch a TV show, then by golly, whether they know the term or not, they'll probably figure it out for themselves at some point...

And when it comes to explaining the capabilities of this unit with a car metaphor, I would liken it was built to be operated more like an automatic rather than a stick, with a huge amount of features, so you could operate it like a simple ford focus or an advanced 4 wheel drive sport car that's a hybrid with a stick shift mode.... And the programmers decided that they need to make sure all the ford focus functions were up and running before they went full steam ahead with the sports car features, but they are adding those features by the day....

Thats the greatest thing about the HR20. It has all the hardware pieces on it to make it do just about everything one could possibly want, and they can upgrade it anytime, with software, so as new ideas (or old ones) come along, then they can be used on the unit, even if its not there today, making it usable by everyone. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if we see DLB come to this unit within 6 months, shoot, I've already seen one function come to it that I never thought I would see, and there is really only one function that I've ever seen on a DVR that I Know won't come to this unit...

[beer_geek]

Why? The entire purpose of a DVR is to allow you to record something while you watch something else.

BJ

Really??? Then, tell us, why has DirecTV put time and energy in the ability to look at pictures on a networked computer and listen to music files that reside on the computer?

I thought the thing was built so I could watch TELEVISION.

[boltjames]

Tom Robertson Hmm... I take Lord Vader's example that average Joe's can learn to use Dual Buffers. Just his Dad won't. :)

Sure, they can learn to use them. But the point is they don't even care if its a feature that's available. Mr. & Mrs. Camry just want a reliable recorder and they watch one program at a time. They're not dual bufferers.

So you're are comparing a DVR to a toaster? That seems to explain a lot... :D

Ah, that's the crux of the issue right there, isn't it?

The HR10 was designed for you and I. Power users. People who like to tweak. People who'd spend $1000 in a heartbeat for an HD DVR years ahead of the curve. People who care about quality and a customized viewing experience.

The HR20 is not designed for that type of person. It's designed for the "Join Now And Get Two Months Free!" crowd. Not me, my mother. To them, to those people, the D* DVR is expected to be a toaster. Easy to use. Reliable. Unsophisticated. Point-and-shoot. All they want is good toast; don't think for a minute they care about the other bells and whistles. Look no further than the dumbed-down cable DVR's or today's cellphone strategy which is not about the hardware, just about the reliable service.

I contend that one of the key original selling points of DVRs was not only to replace the VCR as a recorder, but also to replace it as a receiver and enhancing the live viewing experience. Why else would Tivo (and others) promote ANY live buffer, trickplay, ability to pause during phone calls (and bio breaks), etc?

Because, dear friend, Tivo and the likes of the HR10 were designed to cater to you and I. Videophiles. Bleeding edge technologists. Tinkerers. Hobbiests. Everything on your short list except pausing live TV means the world to us, means zippo to my mom. Pausing live TV and easy-to-use recording setups is all mom cares about. And it's mom that's the target audience for the HR20. DLB was a barely used feature by the wealthy videophile; it's no wonder they eliminated it from their mass STB.

To me DVR does not mean record only, it means Digital Video Receiver. I watch quite a bit of live TV in the background so like to trickplay when, halfway thru a story it catches my attention; and dual buffers of live TV during sports.

So long as you keep mistakenly using the word "I" instead of "mom", the DLB issue won't be clear to you. "Mom" doesn't use D* the way you do. She just wants a "simple cable box" but with "that NFL Sunday stuff that my husband wants". You want filet mignon. She wants toast. D* used to need you. Now they need her.

BJ

[boltjames]

Really??? Then, tell us, why has DirecTV put time and energy in the ability to look at pictures on a networked computer and listen to music files that reside on the computer?

I thought the thing was built so I could watch TELEVISION.

Pictures and music files? Those are right in Mr. & Mrs. Camry's sweetspot. They just got their first iPod, just figured out what a Playlist is in iTunes, finally understand the difference between 'ripping' and 'burning'.

My mom uses a digital camera and rips CD's to MP3's. Convergence, for her, is a simple ability to view photos on a screen and listen to Barry Manilow through the tinny TV speakers.

You see "sophisticated networking capabilities". She see's "free pictures on my TV". You want filet mignon. She wants toast. D* doesn't want you as much as they want her.

BJ

[Tom Robertson]

My mom wants DLB and my dad doesn't know how to hook up the HR20 to the network. Methinks you've got the simple and complex features backward...

[General Custer]

Directv likes to use the term "upgrade" to convince people to switch to the HR20. They should have come out with a unit that had all the features of the original box and added on from there. They didn't necessarily need to keep the tivo interface but it should have included all the features of the HR10 that could legally be copied.

They apparently use the term upgrade to mean switch to the "newer" DVR, not necessarily the unit with more different features. Most people don't want to sacrifice the things that they already have in order to pick up something new. If they aren't getting additional usefulness out of a new purchase they just stay with the original unit.

If there was not a forced upgrade to MPEG4 a lot of people would have stayed with the HR10 (this assumes that all the new HD channels would have been MPEG2). It would not have been worth the money to sacrifice wish lists, DLB, CIR to get photo sharing one touch recording, esata and picture in guide, etc.

A true MPEG4 HD TIVO would certainly give the HR20 a run for its money if Directv were forced to open up its receiver market the way the cable industry did with cablecards.

[Mike Bertelson]

Directv likes to use the term "upgrade" to convince people to switch to the HR20. They should have come out with a unit that had all the features of the original box and added on from there. They didn't necessarily need to keep the tivo interface but it should have included all the features of the HR10 that could legally be copied.

They apparently use the term upgrade to mean switch to the "newer" DVR, not necessarily the unit with more different features. Most people don't want to sacrifice the things that they already have in order to pick up something new. If they aren't getting additional usefulness out of a new purchase they just stay with the original unit.

If there was not a forced upgrade to MPEG4 a lot of people would have stayed with the HR10 (this assumes that all the new HD channels would have been MPEG2). It would not have been worth the money to sacrifice wish lists, DLB, CIR to get photo sharing one touch recording, esata and picture in guide, etc.

A true MPEG4 HD TIVO would certainly give the HR20 a run for its money if Directv were forced to open up its receiver market the way the cable industry did with cablecards.

First, I sorely miss DLB and hope it will someday return. My posts of the subject show how I feel.

However, IMHO the HR20 is an upgrade. It has features that I feel are far above my old TiVo. SLB is my only real peeve and even that continues to improve.

I went into this knowing there was no DLB on the HR20. Based on this thread and my own hopes, I thought it would be comming. I no longer believe that but still hold out for the future.

Speaking only for myself and how we watch TV, I didn't sacrifice any feature to upgrade and feel I gained in the deal(DLB not withstanding). I have decided that a single feature will not be the straw the out weighs the overall experience.

I will however, continue to hope for/complain about/push for DLB. :D

Mike

[poppo]

I believe VOD will be as popular as watching a regular channel within a 5 to 10 years.

Popular where HS Internet is available. Keep in mind a very large portion of the country is still rural and those are the folks that satellite is their only option (vice cable). Not to get too off topic, but I see us moving to the new 'have and have nots' with the Internet. Everything these days is geared toward having a HS connection. And those of us out here in the sticks see no light of day for getting it anytime soon. It's just not cost effective to run fiber etc.. I have satellite Internet which is expensive and only 1.5M DL, and all versions of satellite Internet have some sort of a FAP and just a few HD VOD movies can eat up your BW allotment. And I hear of more and more ISPs putting caps on the heavy BW users. If VOD over the Internet takes off, I see big problems even for the city folks as BW demand surpasses availability.

[beer_geek]

Make up your mind. You say it's for people who can't program the time on their old vcr but these same people can network the thing. Right.

Again, what do pictures and music files have to do with, as you put it, "The entire purpose of a DVR"?

[poppo]

If there was not a forced upgrade to MPEG4 a lot of people would have stayed with the HR10 (this assumes that all the new HD channels would have been MPEG2). It would not have been worth the money to sacrifice wish lists, DLB, CIR to get photo sharing one touch recording, esata and picture in guide, etc.


You forgot the IMO at the beginning of your statement. Personally, not having to 'hack' my unit to increase the space, turn on features and the picture in guide are well worth the sacrifice of a feature (DLB) I have never really used. I never use wish lists or suggestions either. Of course that's partly to having more of a life than sitting in front of the TV all day. :)

[Lord Vader]

Hmm... I take Lord Vader's example that average Joe's can learn to use Dual Buffers. Just his Dad won't. :)

Not exactly, Tom. It's just his generation isn't as technologically savvy as today's is, or even mine, which is between the two. My father has learned, but only after I've explained it to him. My mother? Well, she can't even get the flashing "12:00" off her VCR!

With respect to boltjames' post to which you replied, though, he's just clueless, by citing "further proof." The average Joe would definitely love to know what DLB is, even if it's explained to them using some other terminology. None of my family members knows what the heck "DLB" means, but when I tell them about switching tuners and maintaining the buffer, they're all 100% in favor of it and love it. In fact, they all ask me, "Why can't the new receiver do this?"

P.S. Did you HAVE to quote bolt, Tom? There were 5 ignores in a row, and I was enjoying the silence, not having to read his emotionally illogical drivel.

[ToddinVA]

Mr. Bolt, can you please explain where you get this notion that the HR10 was designed for rich technofiles and the HR20 was only designed for unsophisticated dolts? Sure, the HR10 was expensive at first, but quickly plunged in price. And guess what, it's a TiVo which is widely regarded as having the easiest and simplest to use interface of all the DVRs. So easy that technically unsophisticated people can use it along with us techies. The HR20, while not hard to use, certainly isn't as easy to use as a TiVo. Aside from DLB, I'm not sure how you can say that the HR20 is not designed for advanced users. Since it's newer, it has several more features, many of which require some degree of technical knowledge to implement, such as network connectivity. The fact is, the HR20 is the more advanced and harder to use DVR and the HR10 is the simpler and easier to use DVR. DLB just happens to be one major feature of the HR10 (and pretty much ALL other dual tuner DVRs) that the HR20 lacks. Suggestions is the other one, which we know it will never get. Sorry, but your continued conjecture just don't make sense.

[Lord Vader]

If we ALL stop asking him questions, if we ALL put him on ignore, he could then simply spend time here talking to himself.

[poppo]

None of my family members knows what the heck "DLB" means, but when I tell them about switching tuners and maintaining the buffer, they're all 100% in favor of it and love it. In fact, they all ask me, "Why can't the new receiver do this?"


I have to ask, are they all sports nuts? I ask because no one in my family is a 'channel flipper'. And short of wanting to watch live sports, flipping back and forth between regular shows would just give me a headache. :)

[Lord Vader]

Yes, they do watch sports games quite often, which is when they use DLB the most.

[Drew2k]

If we ALL stop asking him questions, if we ALL put him on ignore, he could then simply spend time here talking to himself.People - we've been warned already. Let's keep this ON TOPIC ...

For example ...

I've used TiVos for four years before getting my first HR20, and I loved DLB the entire time. However, since I got my first HR20, I've adapted to life withot DLB, mostly by having two HR20s on the same TV and using a universal remote to switch TV inputs between the two HR20s. It's worked well, but I woul dlove to have DLB back on ONE box, so I don't have that annoying pause as the inputs are changed.

Because of my workaround, it's not a "must-have" for me, but it will definitely make life more convenient for me ...

[Lord Vader]

I do happen to like my HR20s, in many respects. However, I do wish they had DLB!

[anubys]

I've used TiVos for four years before getting my first HR20, and I loved DLB the entire time. However, since I got my first HR20, I've adapted to life withot DLB, mostly by having two HR20s on the same TV and using a universal remote to switch TV inputs between the two HR20s. It's worked well, but I woul dlove to have DLB back on ONE box, so I don't have that annoying pause as the inputs are changed.

Because of my workaround, it's not a "must-have" for me, but it will definitely make life more convenient for me ...

maybe that's what DirecTV wants...I also have my HR10 next to the HR20 so I can have 4 tuners at the same time (for the NFL sunday ticket)...so the lack of DLB means that they make extra money off me because I'm keeping an extra receiver active!

[Lord Vader]

Bingo. You win the prize. I'm sure there will be people who deny this, but DirecTV does make more money by not having DLB, and I'm sure they'd like to keep it that way. Think about it. If it was revealed this was one of the main reasons, the uproar would be deafening.

[Doug Brott]

maybe that's what DirecTV wants...I also have my HR10 next to the HR20 so I can have 4 tuners at the same time (for the NFL sunday ticket)...so the lack of DLB means that they make extra money off me because I'm keeping an extra receiver active!

It has worked this year, but next year NFL ST will be MPEG4 rendering the TiVo a non-option for that purpose.

[MikeR7]

Bingo. You win the prize. I'm sure there will be people who deny this, but DirecTV does make more money by not having DLB, and I'm sure they'd like to keep it that way. Think about it. If it was revealed this was one of the main reasons, the uproar would be deafening.

I haven't seen this before. Where have you heard that DirecTV™ makes more money if they don't have DLB on their DVR's? :)

[Lord Vader]

It is a logical conclusion, especially when we're talking about recent TIVO converts. Those TIVO owners who are aware of what DLB is and how it works (even if they don't know the acronym we've attached to this feature) miss it on the HR20 series. Many of these people will pony up the additional receiver fee just to get an additional HR20 DVR to effectively simulate a DLB environment. This equates to more income for DirecTV.

And they know it.

[tiger2005]

It has worked this year, but next year NFL ST will be MPEG4 rendering the TiVo a non-option for that purpose.

That timeframe will probably be a good indicator of how important DLB really is. If there is an incredibly large roar, or even if there's silence, I think DirecTV will notice. This might give the casual fans that already have their local game on a local channel and just enjoy watching all of the NFL games, a second of thought on re-upping their NFLST committment. I gave NFLST a chance this year without DLB and I must say that the $350 pricetag looms A LOT larger than it did previously, which is the reason I won't re-up next year. Watching all of the games is just not as fun as it used to be with DLB as a feature. The slow response of the interactive features doesn't help, but that's a topic for another thread. :D

[tiger2005]

It's funny that the 'Its upset a large portion of their customer base' is the same (IMO flawed) claim that the Tivo folks have tried to use to say that DirecTV will never survive the drop of the Tivo brand. But yet the subs keep increasing. <shrug>


My claim is based around DirecTV's desire to maintain their higher paying customers. The customers that buy the NFLST, Center Ice, etc. DirecTV makes a ridiculous amount of cash on those packages, especially NFLST. I should know because I'm one of those customers. Refer to my last post on my feelings of NFLST now that DLB has been excluded in the HR20. Its just not the same and the price isn't worth it anymore.

[Doug Brott]

That timeframe will probably be a good indicator of how important DLB really is. If there is an incredibly large roar, or even if there's silence, I think DirecTV will notice. This might give the casual fans that already have their local game on a local channel and just enjoy watching all of the NFL games, a second of thought on re-upping their NFLST committment. I gave NFLST a chance this year without DLB and I must say that the $350 pricetag looms A LOT larger than it did previously, which is the reason I won't re-up next year. Watching all of the games is just not as fun as it used to be with DLB as a feature. The slow response of the interactive features doesn't help, but that's a topic for another thread. :D

Of course, the TiVo could still be used, but not in HD .. but what's NFL if not in HD? :)

That being said, I truly believe the percentage of HR10s that are in use for no-OTA HD has become insignificant in DIRECTVs mind. Sure, it's not zero, but very few people are using it now the way it used to be intended. I doubt there will be much MPEG2 HD available this time next year.

[boltjames]

Many people will pony up the additional receiver fee just to get an additional HR20 DVR to effectively simulate a DLB environment. This equates to more income for DirecTV.

And they know it.

Yeah, millions of D* subscribers are asking for, paying for, and are installing multiple set top boxes on one TV so that they can toggle between two shows and hit the back button for a few seconds of content they missed once a week.

Further proof that the pro-DLB crowd has no clue what motivates D* or the average subscriber.

BJ

[Doug Brott]

Yeah, millions of D* subscribers are asking for, paying for, and are installing multiple set top boxes on one TV so that they can toggle between two shows and hit the back button for a few seconds of content they missed once a week.

Further proof that the pro-DLB crowd has no clue what motivates D* or the average subscriber.

BJ

There are a number of people that want to continue to hang on to the hope that DLB will one day be a reality. There's nothing wrong with that. I've pushed a bunch of features myself over the past year plus. Some have been implemented, some haven't .. There's really nothing wrong with wanting DLB regardless of whether DIRECTV ever implements it or not ..

[jheda]

Well said. Regardless of whether DLB is implimented, Directv has done an amazing job at listening to our input. Simply look at how many items have been addressed off the wishlist. The continued desire by posters for DLB is far form an indictment of Directv; if anything it says alot that some still have hope it will be implimented as a result of the history of Directv paying attention to subs utilization.


There are a number of people that want to continue to hang on to the hope that DLB will one day be a reality. There's nothing wrong with that. I've pushed a bunch of features myself over the past year plus. Some have been implemented, some haven't .. There's really nothing wrong with wanting DLB regardless of whether DIRECTV ever implements it or not ..

[boltjames]

There are a number of people that want to continue to hang on to the hope that DLB will one day be a reality. There's nothing wrong with that. I've pushed a bunch of features myself over the past year plus. Some have been implemented, some haven't .. There's really nothing wrong with wanting DLB regardless of whether DIRECTV ever implements it or not ..

No question, couldn't agree more. If D* adds DLB to the HR20, I'll use it. Why not? Just another feature to make the product enjoyable.

The concern here is that the poll isn't accurate, the page view count is too high, and it's a big distraction to newbs who are on the fence about D*. Sticks out like a sore thumb. Might as well put an animated ad banner up there that says "Hey, Newbs! There's A Big Problem With The HR20! Read This! Don't Buy It!"

I responded to you yesterday regarding closing this thread and starting a new one with a broader range of responses which will please all people involved.

Can you consider this option?

BJ

[Tom Robertson]

No question, couldn't agree more. If D* adds DLB to the HR20, I'll use it. Why not? Just another feature to make the product enjoyable.

The concern here is that the poll isn't accurate, the page view count is too high, and it's a big distraction to newbs who are on the fence about D*. Sticks out like a sore thumb. Might as well put an animated ad banner up there that says "Hey, Newbs! There's A Big Problem With The HR20! Read This! Don't Buy It!"

I responded to you yesterday regarding closing this thread and starting a new one with a broader range of responses which will please all people involved.

Can you consider this option?

BJYou need to understand one of the axioms of passionate topics in forum world. If we close this thread, especially as active as you personally have been making it, everyone will re-re-repeat all the stuff that is already being repeated right now. So very quickly, any new thread will look very much like this thread.

Mr. BJ, if you have anything else you'd like to discuss about the moderation of the forums, please take that to PM to a moderator. Do not question or discuss these things in the open forums. Thank you.

[Drew2k]

It is a logical conclusion, especially when we're talking about recent TIVO converts. Those TIVO owners who are aware of what DLB is and how it works (even if they don't know the acronym we've attached to this feature) miss it on the HR20 series. Many of these people will pony up the additional receiver fee just to get an additional HR20 DVR to effectively simulate a DLB environment. This equates to more income for DirecTV.

And they know it.As a TiVo convert (who still has four TiVos active on my account but who ever uses them), I can attest that DLB and the lack thereof is NOT the reason I have more than one HR20 on a single TV. I have two HR20s on a single TV because I like to split my recordings up across four tuners to avoid conflicts: CBS and NBC on my "HR20-24" DVR (2=CBS, 4=NBC), and ABC and FOX on my "HR20-57" DVR (5=Fox, 7=ABC), with various other channels distributed evenly across the two DVRs.

I really doubt anyone would pay $5 a month solely to add 'pseudo-DLB' capabilities to their AV setup. More likely, they add the additional HR20/HR21 to gain more tuners, and the 'pseudo-DLB' becomes a nice fringe benefit ...

[Doug Brott]

No question, couldn't agree more. If D* adds DLB to the HR20, I'll use it. Why not? Just another feature to make the product enjoyable.

The concern here is that the poll isn't accurate, the page view count is too high, and it's a big distraction to newbs who are on the fence about D*. Sticks out like a sore thumb. Might as well put an animated ad banner up there that says "Hey, Newbs! There's A Big Problem With The HR20! Read This! Don't Buy It!"

I responded to you yesterday regarding closing this thread and starting a new one with a broader range of responses which will please all people involved.

Can you consider this option?

BJ

The poll is what it is .. I was looking to see if there might be interest in a do-over. There were a couple of passionate folks that thought even my suggestion was too limited. I guess the point is .. what is the point? It is clear that DLB is popular .. It is also clear that it is what it is for now. Let's let the discussion be what it is and not worry about it.

The fine folk that visit this forum can usually find their way around quick enough to make their own decision regarding this thread. So .. this thread will remain open and as-is ..

[Stuart Sweet]

No question, couldn't agree more. If D* adds DLB to the HR20, I'll use it. Why not? Just another feature to make the product enjoyable.

The concern here is that the poll isn't accurate, the page view count is too high, and it's a big distraction to newbs who are on the fence about D*. Sticks out like a sore thumb. Might as well put an animated ad banner up there that says "Hey, Newbs! There's A Big Problem With The HR20! Read This! Don't Buy It!"

I responded to you yesterday regarding closing this thread and starting a new one with a broader range of responses which will please all people involved.

Can you consider this option?

BJ

Mr. James, I disagree with your assessment. Back when I used to read tivocommunity.com every day, there was a thread about an MRV petition for DirecTivos. It was longer and hairier than this thread for sure but neither I nor anyone I spoke to in those days took it to mean that the DTivo had "a big problem" because it didn't have a feature the SA Tivos had.

This thread, as long as it is, is a good place for people to commiserate on this topic.

[anubys]

As a TiVo convert (who still has four TiVos active on my account but who ever uses them), I can attest that DLB and the lack thereof is NOT the reason I have more than one HR20 on a single TV. I have two HR20s on a single TV because I like to split my recordings up across four tuners to avoid conflicts: CBS and NBC on my "HR20-24" DVR (2=CBS, 4=NBC), and ABC and FOX on my "HR20-57" DVR (5=Fox, 7=ABC), with various other channels distributed evenly across the two DVRs.

I really doubt anyone would pay $5 a month solely to add 'pseudo-DLB' capabilities to their AV setup. More likely, they add the additional HR20/HR21 to gain more tuners, and the 'pseudo-DLB' becomes a nice fringe benefit ...

I again agree with Drew...I will always need more than 2 tuners on my main TV...there are plenty of nights when I'm recording 3 shows at once...most of the time, I can move something to a cable repeat (such as a different night for HBO or the west coast feed)...but thursday night now, for example, has Survivor, the NBC shows (Earl, 30 Rock, and Office) plus an NFL game...I must have 3 live tuners to record all of them...it's not just for DLB...we need a new unit that has 4 active tuners at once!

[Lord Vader]

Well, I've got three units connected to my main TV alone: an HR20-700, an HR10-250, and an HDVR2. I still would like DLB on the HR20-700, however, because that shows more HD channels, including HD sports.

[imposterxyz]

Don't have time to peruse this thread to see if this has been mentioned before. Clearly, the primary function of a DVR is to timeshift programming. A side effect of time-shifting is the ability to skip commercials, which of course we all love, but the advertisers naturally hate. When watching live TV, timeshifting is no longer applicable. But a DVR with DLB allows the viewer to essentially watch two live shows and skip the commercials in BOTH. From the perspective of the content providers, i.e., to protect their advertising revenue, that seems like a pretty good reason to oppose DLB.

IIRC, TiVo once elected not to include a 30-second skip feature in favor of a "slip" that required the viewer to FF thru commercials. So there is precedent for a manufacturer to take steps to protect advertising revenue. Could the absence of DLB on the HR20/21 be another example?

[vankai]

Don't have time to peruse this thread to see if this has been mentioned before. Clearly, the primary function of a DVR is to timeshift programming. A side effect of time-shifting is the ability to skip commercials, which of course we all love, but the advertisers naturally hate. When watching live TV, timeshifting is no longer applicable. But a DVR with DLB allows the viewer to essentially watch two live shows and skip the commercials in BOTH. From the perspective of the content providers, i.e., to protect their advertising revenue, that seems like a pretty good reason to oppose DLB.

IIRC, TiVo once elected not to include a 30-second skip feature in favor of a "slip" that required the viewer to FF thru commercials. So there is precedent for a manufacturer to take steps to protect advertising revenue. Could the absence of DLB on the HR20/21 be another example?

I've asked the same question and got the following response in the link below.

It is true that clearing buffers also eliminates the advertising in that buffer, and it is true that the workaround of psuedo DLB through recording both buffers still allows the skipping of advertisements. Regardless, the advertisers could have nicely asked DirecTV to not include DLB when negotiating $$$, as they may still have the perception you mention above. We may never know, unless somewhere here is involved with the negotiations and wants to speak up.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1017240

[Que]

9-07-07

A must have! 1840 76.16%
Don't really care about it. 134 5.55%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 442 18.29%
Voters: 2416

Replies 1,437
Views 78,583

11-01-07


A must have! 2357 77.00%
Don't really care about it. 152 4.97%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 552 18.03%
Voters: 3061.

Replies 1,880
Views 102,583

12-12-07
A must have! 2546 77.29%
Don't really care about it. 163 4.95%
Like the option but, Ok if it's not there. 585 17.76%
Voters: 3294.

Replies 2,182
Views 117,826

In this very short time span. There are 878 new votes.

[Earl Bonovich]

For the ump-teenth time...
It has nothing to do with advertising $$$$$...

As there is nothing stoping you from getting up from your chair...

Changing the channel via Traditional channel surfing still works.

Or FFing through pre-recorded content.

[Earl Bonovich]

IIRC, TiVo once elected not to include a 30-second skip feature in favor of a "slip" that required the viewer to FF thru commercials. So there is precedent for a manufacturer to take steps to protect advertising revenue. Could the absence of DLB on the HR20/21 be another example?

TiVo has never included the "SKIP" feature as an official feature of it's system. It has always been a backdoor code, and has never been mentioned in their manuals... (unless soemthing has changed in the Series 3 line)

[boltjames]

In this very short time span. There are 878 new votes.

And, the 'must have' percentage has barely moved the needle, just eeking up a point in all those months, with all this attention, and with all this lobbying.

There's also another way to look at it: All the HR10 owners forced to migrate to an HR20 due to MPEG4 and hundreds of new channels should be voicing their opinions as a larger percentage of total. In light of this, one would think that the numbers would jump more sharply than a point.

It's a skewed population, but the sheer amount of newly forced HR20 owners makes one wonder if DLB is losing momentum. Percentually, there are more disgruntled HR10 owners joining the HR20 population, and they're not being very vocal. At least the stats would seem to infer this.

BJ

[inkahauts]

TiVo has never included the "SKIP" feature as an official feature of it's system. It has always been a backdoor code, and has never been mentioned in their manuals... (unless soemthing has changed in the Series 3 line)

Yep.. The only to DVR's to ever advertrise and create a button for the 30 second skip feature was Ultimate TV and Replay... Of course replay went a bit further one year and added a feature that would allow it to AUTOMATICALLY skip all commercials, without you having to press any buttons.... Ohh, did they get yelled at from everyone, and eventually turned off that particular feature...

By the way, did everyone notice that Directv bought Replay today!!!!! MRV MRV MRV!!!

[anubys]

And, the 'must have' percentage has barely moved the needle, just eeking up a point in all those months, with all this attention, and with all this lobbying.

There's also another way to look at it: All the HR10 owners forced to migrate to an HR20 due to MPEG4 and hundreds of new channels should be voicing their opinions as a larger percentage of total. In light of this, one would think that the numbers would jump more sharply than a point.

It's a skewed population, but the sheer amount of newly forced HR20 owners makes one wonder if DLB is losing momentum. Percentually, there are more disgruntled HR10 owners joining the HR20 population, and they're not being very vocal. At least the stats would seem to infer this.

BJ

wow...totally and absolutely wrong conclusion based on (I'm inferring here) lack of statistical knowledge...

the fact that as more and more people vote while the percentages stay the same is -- statistically speaking -- further proof that the sample is good and that the poll is showing the true population proportions...in other words, the exact opposite of what you're saying...

Furthermore, (I'm only teasing now) I don't think "precentually" is a word ;)

[tiger2005]

And, the 'must have' percentage has barely moved the needle, just eeking up a point in all those months, with all this attention, and with all this lobbying.

There's also another way to look at it: All the HR10 owners forced to migrate to an HR20 due to MPEG4 and hundreds of new channels should be voicing their opinions as a larger percentage of total. In light of this, one would think that the numbers would jump more sharply than a point.

It's a skewed population, but the sheer amount of newly forced HR20 owners makes one wonder if DLB is losing momentum. Percentually, there are more disgruntled HR10 owners joining the HR20 population, and they're not being very vocal. At least the stats would seem to infer this.

BJ

Are you kidding me??? What numbers are you looking at??? 'A Must Have' only went up by a little over 1 point, but the other two options went DOWN. I'm beginning to wonder if DLB did something to you personally.

[boltjames]

Are you kidding me??? What numbers are you looking at??? 'A Must Have' only went up by a little over 1 point, but the other two options went DOWN. I'm beginning to wonder if DLB did something to you personally.



the fact that as more and more people vote while the percentages stay the same is -- statistically speaking -- further proof that the sample is good and that the poll is showing the true population proportions...in other words, the exact opposite of what you're saying...



Guys....

We know that with all the new HD channels launched during the past 5 weeks that scores of loyal HR10 users are finally giving up waiting and are converting to HR20's.

That would mean that a larger percentage of the polling userbase would be this group of "unhappy loyal Tivo users" who held on as long as they could, and thus more people with the potential to vote "yes" for DLB.

To this point the population has been skewed, but consistent with a smattering of grumpy HR10 converts as opposed to right now when there are scores of them migrating. With more of them coming over to DLB, you'd think the "yes" numbers would have risen more sharply.

BJ

[jahgreen]

no, read my post again...I think what the results of this poll mean is that if you take a random Directv customer, tell them what DLB is, and ask them if they want it, at least two-thirds of them will say they must have it...

Ahh, now I understand the point you are making.

But then I worry about a biased poll question. Telling somebody about a missing feature and asking them if they want it suggests the answer.

This is what advertisers do . . . . :D

FULL DISCLOSURE: I'd like to have DLB. But I'd like to have a High Definition DVD player, too.

[Doug Brott]

The poll may not be completely accurate, but I would certainly agree that the 'must have' crowd is bigger than the 'don't care' crowd. That's being said, those that really, don't care .. well, they probably didn't even open the thread :). That's where your gonna see any bias.

Now .. past that .. let's please stop dissecting the validity of the poll. It is what it is and nothing more. The decision to implement rests with DIRECTV and I'm sure they've already gotten what they need from this thread. The decision to stay with DIRECTV rests with you, the consumer, and DLB is but one of the factors in that decision.

Since the "poll validity" discussions are the ones that are turning this thread argumentative, I will be deleting those posts from this thread from this point forward. Thank you for your understanding. Feel free to continue discussing the merits of DLB or no DLB or what you think, etc. etc.

[jim_arrows]

Guys....

We know that with all the new HD channels launched during the past 5 weeks that scores of loyal HR10 users are finally giving up waiting and are converting to HR20's.

That would mean that a larger percentage of the polling userbase would be this group of "unhappy loyal Tivo users" who held on as long as they could, and thus more people with the potential to vote "yes" for DLB.

To this point the population has been skewed, but consistent with a smattering of grumpy HR10 converts as opposed to right now when there are scores of them migrating. With more of them coming over to DLB, you'd think the "yes" numbers would have risen more sharply.

BJ

I'm one of the recent converts, 3 months with an HR20. Due to the lack of DLB, I only use it when absolutely necessary -- i.e. the new mpeg-4 channels. Any time I can still use the Tivo, I do so. It's a shame, because IF the hr20's had the DLB, I'd happily give up the Tivo -- I'm not one of the Tivo loyalists. From a UI perspective, the Tivo does some things better, the hr20 does some things better. But from a functional perspective, the lack of DLB means the hr20 is crippled when compared to the Tivo. Oh, and I HATE that there isn't a dedicated slow-motion button, but that's for another thread...

[Lord Vader]

The poll may not be completely accurate, but I would certainly agree that the 'must have' crowd is bigger than the 'don't care' crowd. That's being said, those that really, don't care .. well, they probably didn't even open the thread :). That's where your gonna see any bias.

Now .. past that .. let's please stop dissecting the validity of the poll. It is what it is and nothing more. The decision to implement rests with DIRECTV and I'm sure they've already gotten what they need from this thread. The decision to stay with DIRECTV rests with you, the consumer, and DLB is but one of the factors in that decision.

Since the "poll validity" discussions are the ones that are turning this thread argumentative, I will be deleting those posts from this thread from this point forward. Thank you for your understanding. Feel free to continue discussing the merits of DLB or no DLB or what you think, etc. etc.

Can we discuss the validity of the deletion of the validity posts? :D:D

[Drew2k]

Can we discuss the validity of the deletion of the validity posts? :D:DSince that would be questioning moderator actions and forum moderation .... ummm, well, .... you should know the answer and where that may get you ... ;)

[Doug Brott]

Since that would be questioning moderator actions and forum moderation .... ummm, well, .... you should know the answer and where that may get you ... ;)

Exactly .. Thank you.

[jheda]

If the SLB were perfected, where the pause would hold the live buffer and you could switch between a live buffer and a recording show, thus being able to flip between 2 shows/events, would u give up your tivo?

I'm one of the recent converts, 3 months with an HR20. Due to the lack of DLB, I only use it when absolutely necessary -- i.e. the new mpeg-4 channels. Any time I can still use the Tivo, I do so. It's a shame, because IF the hr20's had the DLB, I'd happily give up the Tivo -- I'm not one of the Tivo loyalists. From a UI perspective, the Tivo does some things better, the hr20 does some things better. But from a functional perspective, the lack of DLB means the hr20 is crippled when compared to the Tivo. Oh, and I HATE that there isn't a dedicated slow-motion button, but that's for another thread...

[ToddinVA]

If the SLB were perfected, where the pause would hold the live buffer and you could switch between a live buffer and a recording show, thus being able to flip between 2 shows/events, would u give up your tivo?

I wouldn't.

[jheda]

May I ask, Todd, why not, assuming of course DLB is the sole reason you havent switched?

For me, since i can relatively easily watch 2 games at once with a proper performing SLB, I am fine...but thats me. I am interested in how many of us dlb fanatics would move on with a functioning SLB.....

[General Custer]

Since that would be questioning moderator actions and forum moderation .... ummm, well, .... you should know the answer and where that may get you ... ;)

Is the First Amendment respected here or is this a dictatorship. As long as no one is using hate speech or putting anyone else in danger, why can't we discuss all these things here. This is a free country and as long as everyone is being polite, you should be able to question a moderator. We are all adults living in a free and open society. This is not a forum from China. The moderators are not infallible and fair open discussion should be able to include criticism of their actions as well.

[cygnusloop]

Is the First Amendment respected here or is this a dictatorship. As long as no one is using hate speech or putting anyone else in danger, why can't we discuss all these things here. This is a free country and as long as everyone is being polite, you should be able to question a moderator. We are all adults living in a free and open society. This is not a forum from China. The moderators are not infallible and fair open discussion should be able to include criticism of their actions as well.

From the User Agreement (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=23). The rules are the rules. Please don't get this thread closed again.

(t) Moderators decisions are NOT to be questioned in public. PMs are encouraged. If a moderator closes or moves a thread, do not start another one on the same topic. This includes veiled or similarly named threads solely designed to protest a moderating decision. These will be considered "questioning the moderators" and will result in a temporary or permanent ban. If you have a question for a moderator on a decision, you can send a PM to anyone, and we will get back to you.

:backtotop

[Drew2k]

Is the First Amendment respected here or is this a dictatorship. As long as no one is using hate speech or putting anyone else in danger, why can't we discuss all these things here. This is a free country and as long as everyone is being polite, you should be able to question a moderator. We are all adults living in a free and open society. This is not a forum from China. The moderators are not infallible and fair open discussion should be able to include criticism of their actions as well.Forum Rules, Paragraph T (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=23). You know, in the User Agreement you surely read and agreed to when you created your DBSTalk.com user account ...

[ToddinVA]

May I ask, Todd, why not, assuming of course DLB is the sole reason you havent switched?

For me, since i can relatively easily watch 2 games at once with a proper performing SLB, I am fine...but thats me. I am interested in how many of us dlb fanatics would move on with a functioning SLB.....

It's just too much trouble. I tend to bounce around a lot sometimes and having to record one show, etc is a pain. Also, what if I don't have a lot of room left and the shows are in HD and are long? Recording them may cause space issues as well. Frankly, I find the SLB concept more confusing that DLB to use...

[anubys]

in light of DirecTV purchasing replay...and since I've never owned a replay...did those units have DLB?

[tiger2005]

in light of DirecTV purchasing replay...and since I've never owned a replay...did those units have DLB?

I asked this same question in the Replay purchase thread and apparently Replay was a single tuner machine only. So the answer would be no.

[say-what]

Is the First Amendment respected hereAs I tell people on the site I run when they play the 1st Amendment card, the 1st Amendment starts, "Congress shall make no law.....", this isn't Congress, you have to play by the site's rules. :D

[sshams95]

As I tell people on the site I run when they play the 1st Amendment card, the 1st Amendment starts, "Congress shall make no law.....", this isn't Congress, you have to play by the site's rules. :D

Very true and I agree with the Mods in being aggressive in enforcing this site's rules. If I recall correctly, I remember reading on Engadget that the Blue Ray vs HDDVD thread at AVSForums had to be shut down because the argument got so heated, I guess a couple of physical threats ensued. Now I'm sure we are all above that, but the Mods are doing the right thing in ensuring it doesn't come close to that type of situation.

[Doug Brott]

Time to get :backtotop .. Thank you.

[Lord Vader]

Time to get :backtotop .. Thank you.

Indeed. Even I, a powerful Sith Lord, knows that the First Amendment doesn't apply here. ;)

[jheda]

so, bringing the thread back on topic, other DLB lovers:

thoughts on if SLB is repaired, could you move on and enjoy the HR-20?

[tiger2005]

so, bringing the thread back on topic, other DLB lovers:

thoughts on if SLB is repaired, could you move on and enjoy the HR-20?

I think its a step in the right direction, but I agree with Todd that it would still only qualify as a work-around and be way more complicated than DLB. One of the best benefits of DLB was that it was a simple feature to use and very uncomplicated. One button and you can hop back and forth to programs that are being buffered. You didn't have to make sure you have enough HD space, hit record, delete the program later, etc. The HD space issue is one of the major problems with the current work-around, especially when its used for sporting events where the guide doesn't have a definitive end time. Just implementing SLB wouldn't rectify this issue.

[cygnusloop]

so, bringing the thread back on topic, other DLB lovers:

thoughts on if SLB is repaired, could you move on and enjoy the HR-20?

For me, the most pain has been for watching football, and a working SLB pretty much solves this issue for me, as I would always be recording my "main" game, anyway. When the SLB holds the pause point on the other game, this works very well for me.

Where I still miss DLB is when I want to monitor more than two channels at the same time, for example, with breaking news events. I like to monitor CNN, FOX, and MSNBC. I would put one buffer on channel A, and the other on channel B. Then I would watch channel B until a break, and change it to channel C to let it start buffering. I would then switch back to the now buffered channel A and watch it until catching up to live, or a break, pause it, switch back to the now buffered channel C until a break. At this point, channel A has built up a buffer again.... and so on, and so on. The SLB workaround, even with a working SLB doesn't help for this situation.

[homerdodge]

Yes, this arrangement is certainly better than nothing, but having to record something, even if the thing does pause the SLB properly, is a Rube Goldbergian alternative to a proper DLB.

Take the need to manually record out of the equation. That requires stopping the recording if you decide you don't want that channel anymore, but you still want the channel that is not being recorded, the channel the SLB is on. You have to screw around with stopping the recording of the one channel and starting a recording of the other, and cleaning up the old recording.

And if a Series Link comes along, then the SLB channel is going to have to be switched to do the Series Link recording because the other tuner that you were not currently viewing is locked into recording that other channel.

With true DLB on an HR10-250, you'd instead get a pop up notifying you that the other tuner that you were not currently viewing needed to be switched to channel xxx, to do the Season Pass recording. Thereby, not interfering with the channel you were viewing currently.

[Mike Bertelson]

so, bringing the thread back on topic, other DLB lovers:

thoughts on if SLB is repaired, could you move on and enjoy the HR-20?

It would be a great leap forward.

It's not as convenient as true DLB but workable. And yes, it would make the HR-20 more enjoyable to use.

It won't stop me from pushing for DLB though. :D

Mike

[henryld]

It would be a great leap forward.

It's not as convenient as true DLB but workable. And yes, it would make the HR-20 more enjoyable to use.

It won't stop me from pushing for DLB though. :D

Mike
+1

[Green23]

:confused: I've been following this topic for months, and just can't figure out what they were thinking. This DVR has "2 tuners" - but a user has no DLB and can't actually switch tuners while viewing. This seems like a fundamental element of a "2 tuner" device especially when the previous TIVO models allow this. Now they've removed OTA tuners from the 21- what's next? How much more can they f these DVR's up? This is reverse engineering- you can't improve technology by removing useful features. Can't understand what they're really trying to do here.

[ShiningBengal]

:confused: I've been following this topic for months, and just can't figure out what they were thinking. This DVR has "2 tuners" - but a user has no DLB and can't actually switch tuners while viewing. This seems like a fundamental element of a "2 tuner" device especially when the previous TIVO models allow this. Now they've removed OTA tuners from the 21- what's next? How much more can they f these DVR's up? This is reverse engineering- you can't improve technology by removing useful features. Can't understand what they're really trying to do here.

They have removed the DLB feature, presumably, because some other "feature" cannot coexist with DLB.

(The obvious "feature" is VOD. This is the feature whereby you can choose from a slate of old shows in less-than-standard definition while at the same time being able to record two shows cotemporaneously from the Guide.)

I have enabled VOD on one of my HR20's, and IMHO, it is a joke. Who is going to want to record low definition shows on an HD capable system, particularly since there is nothing noteworthy about the VOD offerings otherwise? Not to mention that even a less than standard definition program can take 2 to 10 times as long to record as to play it back? I always thought video "on demand" meant "instantaneously."

It is also apparent that DirecTV needed something to counter cable TV that offers true video on demand--in HD!

DirecTV is making fools of themselves if they think anyone is going to give a hoot about their version of VOD if it is anything at all like what they have in their beta release. I have tested my bandwidth at 7 Mbit/sec consistently, yet I have seen a 40 minute program take 7 hours to download. What a joke.:rolleyes:

[Lord Vader]

Well, I consistently download a 2GB movie in less than 2 hours--much less than 2 hours, in fact.

[Doug Brott]

ShiningBengal,

Not sure why you say no DLB is because of On Demand. I could have missed it I guess, but in the year plus that I've been here, I don't ever recall seeing the exact reason why DLB is not a feature of the HR20/21. I don't expect to either because design elements of the DIRECTV receivers are probably something DIRECTV doesn't want the public to see.

[ShiningBengal]

Well, I consistently download a 2GB movie in less than 2 hours--much less than 2 hours, in fact.

That's really good for you, Lord Vader. However, your experience appears not to be typical. I have had a few faster downloads, too. But it appears that the speed is very dependent on the server load at the moment.

My DSL connection is not at fault. My house is 1-1/2 blocks from the telco CO and it tests consistently at close to 7 Mb/sec.

I am aware that a small fraction of subscribers have faster DL speeds, but it appears not to matter in most cases.

By the way, how do you know the size of your download? And what is it that you have found compelling enough to bother to download?:rolleyes:

The fact is, if DirecTV is going to call this feature "on demand" you shouldn't have to wait for it to download at all. That isn't what "on demand" means.

DirecTV has recognized that their service is not "on demand" by color coding the progress bar on your download. It turns green at 67% meaning it is safe (in most cases) to start playing a show at that time. However, you can still outrun the download when it is at 90%.

You still can't download any HD content. Why not? Might it be that you will never be able to get HD over the Internet because it would take most viewers more than a day to download the 15 GB file typical of a 90 minute movie?

If we do get HD "on demand" content, it will probably be from one of the new satellites.

In which case, you would not need the VOD "on demand" service.

[ShiningBengal]

ShiningBengal,

Not sure why you say no DLB is because of On Demand. I could have missed it I guess, but in the year plus that I've been here, I don't ever recall seeing the exact reason why DLB is not a feature of the HR20/21. I don't expect to either because design elements of the DIRECTV receivers are probably something DIRECTV doesn't want the public to see.

My statement is based on the fact that VOD uses a recording stream that is in addition to what is used for recording shows from the satellite. DLB also uses one more recording stream than SLB would. It is also based on the fact that DirecTV is tight lipped as far as stating what the specific reason is that they cannot/will not provide this feature.

Of course there has to be a technical reason we can't have it, and Earl has consistently alluded to the fact that he knows what that reason is, and that he is not permitted to say why. That is another strong reason to surmise that the design of the HR20/21 precludes DLB.

Every other DVR DirecTV has offered had DLB. No other DVR they have offered DID have VOD.

That is the basis for my statement. Do I absolutely know for sure that VOD is the reason for no DLB? No.

But if I hear hoofbeats, I do not look for Zebras.

[Drew2k]

My statement is based on the fact that VOD uses a recording stream that is in addition to what is used for recording shows from the satellite. DLB also uses one more recording stream than SLB would. It is also based on the fact that DirecTV is tight lipped as far as stating what the specific reason is that they cannot/will not provide this feature.Right now the HR20 can record two satellite streams and the DOD stream over the network all at the same time, so there can be three streams writing to the hard drive at once. Based on that, I'd say DOD is not the reason we don't have DLB. I don't know what the reason is, but I don't think it's DOD.

[ShiningBengal]

Right now the HR20 can record two satellite streams and the DOD stream over the network all at the same time, so there can be three streams writing to the hard drive at once. Based on that, I'd say DOD is not the reason we don't have DLB. I don't know what the reason is, but I don't think it's DOD.

If you had one guess, what else might it be?

I have thought long and hard about this issue, and I always come back to DOD. It, and the lack of DLB are unique to the HR20/21 series of DVR's. That alone is suggestive that the two features cannot coexist in these models without major re-engineering.

No knowledgeable source has officially stated or even implied that something other than DOD is the reason for no DLB. Until they do, my bet will remain on DOD as it is more plausible than any other reason I can think of.

[Doug Brott]

If you had one guess, what else might it be?

I have thought long and hard about this issue, and I always come back to DOD. It, and the lack of DLB are unique to the HR20/21 series of DVR's. That alone is suggestive that the two features cannot coexist in these models without major re-engineering.

No knowledgeable source has officially stated or even implied that something other than DOD is the reason for no DLB. Until they do, my bet will remain on DOD as it is more plausible than any other reason I can think of.

No problem with thinking that .. Just add "I think" to your statement next time and all is good :) Your explanation is as plausible as any other I've heard.

[Drew2k]

If you had one guess, what else might it be?

I have thought long and hard about this issue, and I always come back to DOD. It, and the lack of DLB are unique to the HR20/21 series of DVR's. That alone is suggestive that the two features cannot coexist in these models without major re-engineering.

No knowledgeable source has officially stated or even implied that something other than DOD is the reason for no DLB. Until they do, my bet will remain on DOD as it is more plausible than any other reason I can think of.I'll take TWO guesses:

(1) Maybe we don't have DLB because it would interfere with some mysterious new feature or service that we are not aware of that DIRECTV has had on the drawing boards since the inception of the R15 and hopes to deliver "some day." What it could be, I don't know, but if there is a new feature that would be one plausible (of many) that DIRECTV has asked Earl not to share with us the reason for no DLB.

(2) Maybe it's too embarrassing for DIRECTV to reveal why there is no DLB. Maybe before the R15 was introduced they had a researcher or lawyer who insisted that there were legal reasons that DLB could not be included in the design, so DIRECTV designed the R15 and subsequent plans for the HR20 around NOT having DLB in place. They spent countless hours and dollars on a design that they found out later could have had DLB, and it's embarrassing to them to realize how much time and money they wasted.

I could continue making guesses, but my theory is that the reason we don't have DLB is either a very good one (like guess 1 above) or a very lame one (like guess 2 above).

I sincerely doubt that DIRECTV would be "embarrassed" or that "embarrassment" is the reason we still don't have DLB. They are a corporation that has a very public testing program where, from the long view, it's easy to say DIRECTV has learned from past mistakes and has no qualms about going "public" with new features before those features are released nationally.

So I think the more likely reason is that there is some new feature that would prevent DLB, in its truest form, from being implemented. Who knows ... maybe DIRECTV is re-engineering both the new feature and the existing HR20 software to try to make DLB and the new feature exist, and that is yet another reason why we haven't seen DLB?

Anyway, just my guesses ... and poor ones at that. :)

[ShiningBengal]

No problem with thinking that .. Just add "I think" to your statement next time and all is good :) Your explanation is as plausible as any other I've heard.

Your exception is duly noted. :)

[ShiningBengal]

I'll take TWO guesses:

(1) Maybe we don't have DLB because it would interfere with some mysterious new feature or service that we are not aware of that DIRECTV has had on the drawing boards since the inception of the R15 and hopes to deliver "some day." What it could be, I don't know, but if there is a new feature that would be one plausible (of many) that DIRECTV has asked Earl not to share with us the reason for no DLB.

(2) Maybe it's too embarrassing for DIRECTV to reveal why there is no DLB. Maybe before the R15 was introduced they had a researcher or lawyer who insisted that there were legal reasons that DLB could not be included in the design, so DIRECTV designed the R15 and subsequent plans for the HR20 around NOT having DLB in place. They spent countless hours and dollars on a design that they found out later could have had DLB, and it's embarrassing to them to realize how much time and money they wasted.

I could continue making guesses, but my theory is that the reason we don't have DLB is either a very good one (like guess 1 above) or a very lame one (like guess 2 above).

I sincerely doubt that DIRECTV would be "embarrassed" or that "embarrassment" is the reason we still don't have DLB. They are a corporation that has a very public testing program where, from the long view, it's easy to say DIRECTV has learned from past mistakes and has no qualms about going "public" with new features before those features are released nationally.

So I think the more likely reason is that there is some new feature that would prevent DLB, in its truest form, from being implemented. Who knows ... maybe DIRECTV is re-engineering both the new feature and the existing HR20 software to try to make DLB and the new feature exist, and that is yet another reason why we haven't seen DLB?

Anyway, just my guesses ... and poor ones at that. :)

Your guesses are, like mine, conjecture. Time will tell whose guesses were poor and whose were not.

If I had to choose one of the two guesses you came up with, it would be #2, primarily since it fits nicely with my own theory.

If I were DirecTV, I would be extremely embarrassed that they opted for a feature as lame as DOD ("Dead on Delivery?") at the expense of one as useful and popular as DLB.

[Steve]

I have thought long and hard about this issue, and I always come back to DOD. It, and the lack of DLB are unique to the HR20/21 series of DVR's. That alone is suggestive that the two features cannot coexist in these models without major re-engineering.Perhaps what ever re-engineering is required has been completed with the SLB PAUSE retention fix we're testing in the current CE.

I just started a DOD download, and then simulated DLB's by recording CBS HD and PLAYING it from the LIST while pausing NBC HD in the LIVE buffer. I'm hitting PREV to toggle back and forth, and all is working as expected.

This indicates to me that there is no technical reason DLB's couldn't be implemented now, if it's someting DirecTV wanted to do. In my mind, it should simply be a matter of "auto-starting" a record of the background tuner if it's available, and teaching PREV to toggle between tuners, instead of one tuner and the last PLAYLIST playback. Or leave PREV "as is" and designate another key that would only "prev" between tuners, like the DOWN ARROW on the HR10.

Just my .02. /steve

[ShiningBengal]

Perhaps what ever re-engineering is required has been completed with the SLB PAUSE retention fix we're testing in the current CE.

I just started a DOD download, and then simulated DLB's by recording CBS HD and PLAYING it from the LIST while pausing NBC HD in the LIVE buffer. I'm hitting PREV to toggle back and forth, and all is working as expected.

This indicates to me that there is no technical reason DLB's couldn't be implemented now, if it's someting DirecTV wanted to do. In my mind, it should simply be a matter of "auto-starting" a record of the background tuner if it's available, and teaching PREV to toggle between tuners, instead of one tuner and the last PLAYLIST playback. Or leave PREV "as is" and designate another key that would only "prev" between tuners, like the DOWN ARROW on the HR10.

Just my .02. /steve

You may be right, Steve. But your explanation of how the new "fixed" SLB works begs the question: Why not true DLB?

[Drew2k]

You may be right, Steve. But your explanation of how the new "fixed" SLB works begs the question: Why not true DLB?Because they're still working on it ...

[Lord Vader]

I don't think so, Drew. They have the technical capability to implement DLB right now. It's just that DirecTV chooses not to implement it, the reasons why known to them and to Earl, who has repeatedly said he cannot divulge said reasons.

[homerdodge]

I know - Santa's bringing it.
Yipee!!!

[Drew2k]

I don't think so, Drew. They have the technical capability to implement DLB right now. It's just that DirecTV chooses not to implement it, the reasons why known to them and to Earl, who has repeatedly said he cannot divulge said reasons.I think the argument can be made that until the current CE test cycle started, there was no hope for DLB because often you couldn't watch a recording from the playlist without the live buffer being lost, and you couldn't pause the live buffer to watch a recording and then return to the live buffer to resume playback from the paused position. Now that this functionality is in place, and it's still being worked on, we have greater hope for DLB, but it still can't happen until all issues related with the SLB are identified, resolved, and locked down. That's why I answered "because they're still working on it [SLB]" to Shining Bengal when he asked, "why not DLB?"

Like posted in the "Forget about DLB - fix SLB instead" thread, we can't put the cart before the horse. Or another one, you can't walk before learn to crawl... with the SLB fixes currently being tested, we're still crawling ... :)

[Lord Vader]

But your theory would mean that they currently do not have the technical ability to implement DLB (because of the SLB-related issues), when it's been stated that they do have said capability but just choose not to do so.

[Drew2k]

But your theory would mean that they currently do not have the technical ability to implement DLB (because of the SLB-related issues), when it's been stated that they do have said capability but just choose not to do so.I don't see it that way. I'm talking about whether or not we had hopes of seeing DLB and I'm posting the few known facts: SLB wasn't working; it's currently being worked on; one day the SLB updates will be released nationally.

Having technical capability is quite different from actually utilizing that capability and implementing a solution, whether it's for SLB, DLB, or anything else. Before the DOD service was introduced the DVRs were technically able to record three independent streams to the hard drive, but it wasn't until we received the software and DIRECTV turned on the service that we could actually do it.

That the HR20 is technically capable of having DLB is not in disupte ... whether there are updates implemented that enable DLB is a different maatter, and in my opinion, it makes no sense to work on DLB untill SLB is fixed, and that is currently in progress. That's all I'm saying.

[boltjames]

I know - Santa's bringing it.
Yipee!!!

I know Santa and he's not working on DLB. Nope, not the elves either.

BJ

[Steve]

Here is their Ans. to this. :rolleyes:Now that's interesting. First official confirmation I've seen that DLB is a TiVo patented feature! /steve

[ToddinVA]

Here is their Ans. to this. :rolleyes:

That's nonsense though since most other dual-tuner DVR's have DLB, in addition to TiVo.

[ub1934]

That's nonsense though since most other dual-tuner DVR's have DLB, in addition to TiVo.

We all know that it's just like them telling me that the 3 mo. free on the HD Pack is to give them more time to put it back with the HD access where it should be. ;)

[Drew2k]

Now that's interesting. First official confirmation I've seen that DLB is a TiVo patented feature! /steveWell, if you consider CSR statements to be "official", I guess so! :lol:

But "dual line buffer"? My guess is the correspondence CSR has just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and made up the answer without selecting a standard/pre-written generic response. :D

[Mike Bertelson]

Here is their Ans. to this. :rolleyes:

Well, if you consider CSR statements to be "official", I guess so! :lol:

But "dual line buffer"? My guess is the correspondence CSR has just enough knowledge to be dangerous, and made up the answer without selecting a standard/pre-written generic response. :D

Not to mention there can't be any "Single Line Buffer" either. What is that supposed to mean?

Mike

[inkahauts]

That's nonsense though since most other dual-tuner DVR's have DLB, in addition to TiVo.


While this is a highly suspect statement (the csr's), and replay being bought may now make this completely mute, did anyone consider that those other dvrs using dlb, (by the way, WHO? I am not familiar enough with others past replay and ultimate and tivo and the hr20) are paying tivo for the right to use dlb?

[Lord Vader]

Now that's interesting. First official confirmation I've seen that DLB is a TiVo patented feature! /steve

Thia has been common knowledge for years. However, it's not the reason why DirecTV lacks DLB. Earl has even emhpasized that the patent issue isn't the reason. That DirecTV executive was simply using it as an excuse.

Remember, too, that DirecTV has been licensing TIVO patent for some time now anyway.

[Drew2k]

Thia has been common knowledge for years. However, it's not the reason why DirecTV lacks DLB. Earl has even emhpasized that the patent issue isn't the reason. That DirecTV executive was simply using it as an excuse. Note - it wasn't an Excecutive of DIRECTV responding, it was a Correspondence CSR. No more weight should be attributed to this emailed response than if a Phone CSR stated it over the phone ...

[Lord Vader]

Then that explains the contents of the letter. That or the CSR was lying through his teeth.

[Mike Bertelson]

Thia has been common knowledge for years. However, it's not the reason why DirecTV lacks DLB. Earl has even emhpasized that the patent issue isn't the reason. That DirecTV executive was simply using it as an excuse.

Remember, too, that DirecTV has been licensing TIVO patent for some time now anyway.

Earl has stated many times in this thread that there is no patents on DLB.

Mike

[kmill14]

Earl has stated many times in this thread that there is no patents on DLB.

Mike

There might not be specific patents on the DLB feature, but it is very possible (and probable) that Tivo's "time warp" patent contains the only viable and inexpensive way to perform a proper DLB. Other DVRs certainly perform this feature, but of course one (E*) is getting sued and others (Comcast and Cox) signed long-term deals with Tivo.

[Mike Bertelson]

There might not be specific patents on the DLB feature, but it is very possible (and probable) that Tivo's "time warp" patent contains the only viable and inexpensive way to perform a proper DLB. Other DVRs certainly perform this feature, but of course one (E*) is getting sued and others (Comcast and Cox) signed long-term deals with Tivo.

That's possible. I'll have to look it up.

Mike

[Steve]

That's nonsense though since most other dual-tuner DVR's have DLB, in addition to TiVo.Other DVR's have FF autocorrect as well, also in violation of TiVo's patents. Perhaps TiVo just hasn't gotten around to suing them yet. Who knows what their next legal moves will be after they're done with Echostar, now that their patents in that case have been upheld by the courts.

That being said, DirectTV does have a cross-licensing deal with TiVo on patents through 2010. I don't know what particular features that deal covers, however. /steve

[jheda]

I trust Earl implicitly who has repeatedly said it is NOT a patent issue...