Dual Buffers

[Que]

How DLB works on most other DVRs (Change to the other tuner/buffer)

I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.

I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.HR20 does not save your pause point.There really isn't a good workaround.

List of some DVRs with DLB


S3 from TIVO Has DLB HR10-250 SD-DVR40 Hughes GXCEBOTD
AT&T Homezone DVR
Dish Network – ViP622
Charter Communications – Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner – Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
MetroCast – Motorola(DCT-6412)
CableVision/Optimum – Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
CableOne – Motorola (DCT-6412)
FiOS – Motorola(QIP6416)


If you feel strongly about DLB. Please copy and print this letter. Make sure to include your account number and name.

Attention: President, D*

I am writing in regard to your flagship receiver, the HR20. DirecTV deserves high credit for attempting to bring such a cutting edge piece of technology to the consumer market. As a consumer who appreciates products just like this one, I am pleased you have tried to make this receiver everything for everyone in the realm of living room entertainment.

I am also highly impressed with your willingness to work with the user community to make this product the best it can be. In that spirit, I am requesting an additional feature be added to the receiver.

Nearly all modern DVR receivers have a feature that has come to be known as DLB (Dual Live Buffers). This feature (available on your DirecTivo models) allows a viewer to pause a television show, change over to the second available tuner, and watch a different show or channel surf. The viewer can then go back to the first tuner and resume watching the paused show. Both tuners have independent buffers, and both are easily viewable at the touch of a single button.

Due to apparent design limitations, planned or unplanned, the HR20 lacks this feature. There are at the very least thousands of people who have become accustomed to the Dual Buffer feature, who are now very displeased due to its absence on the HR20. In my view, this feature is holding the HR20 back from being a truly groundbreaking piece of technology. A DVR without this feature is at best, a partially finished product.

I’m writing in hopes that DirecTV will work to add the feature to the HR20 first and foremost. But if this is not technically possible, then I am writing to ask that DirecTV design the feature into its future products.

I assure you there is a large community of people who would be relieved to hear that this is in fact part of DirecTV’s plans. I appreciate your consideration of this matter, and look forward to some kind of response from DirecTV. If not a personal response, perhaps a public one can be given.

Thank you for your time,

[Letter #2]

Dear Sir,

I am writing in regard to DirecTV’s High Definition (HD) Digital Video Recorder (DVR) receiver models HR20-100/HR20-700. The HR20 has many features and capabilities that enhance the TV viewing experience. However, there is one important deficiency.

As I’m sure you are aware, to buffer only the channel currently being watched is known as a Single Live Buffer (SLB). Buffering on dual tuners with the ability to switch between them is known Dual Live Buffers (DLB). The HR20 lacks DLB and I strongly believe this needs your attention. Its operation must be transparent to the viewer with switching between tuners only a simple key press of the remote. It should not be a “work around” with limited functionality. DLB needs to be high on DirecTV’s priority list.

Pausing and rewinding live TV is at the very heart of the DVR experience. Without this any DVR is little more than a high-tech VCR. Your subscribers have come to use DLB many different ways. It has become an important aspect of that viewing experience. The lack of DLB has actually changed how some of us watch TV.

The lack of DLB is very disappointing. However, the HR20 has had issues with SLB working properly and when it doesn’t it can be down right frustrating. I understand the latest software release is supposed to addresses SLB but it must be proven over time. It needs operate flawlessly and should not require the least consideration that it might not. Further, I am not alone in my disappointment. A simple search of the internet will provide numerous discussions specifically dedicated to live buffering on the HR20.

While DirecTV receivers have gotten away from DLB as a feature, most other DVR equipment has moved toward it. Currently, most television service providers have a HD-DVR option with this feature. The following are ten such examples all of which have DLB.

1. Dish Network – ViP622
2. Charter Communications – Motorola (Moxie BMC-9000 series) and Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD).
3. Cox, Comcast, Adelphia, Time Warner – Motorola (DCT-6412 & Moxie) and Scientific Atlantic (Explorer 8000HD)
4. MetroCast – Motorola(DCT-6412)
5. CableVision/Optimum – Scientific Atlanta (Explorer 8000HD)
6. CableOne – Motorola (DCT-6412)
7. FiOS – Motorola(QIP6416)
8. AT&T – allows the use of stand-alone DVR such as a TiVo.

Although my disappointment has been the focus of this letter, I wish to be clear. With the exception of the buffers, I believe the HR20 is an exceptional receiver. It meets or exceeds nearly all aspects of my previous dual-tuner DVR. I commend DirecTV for your continuing work to provide a quality product and appreciate your time to address my concerns.

Sincerely,
Mail to:

Office of the President
DIRECTV, Inc.
P.O. Box 6550
Greenwood Village, CO 80155-6550


Originally Posted by boltjames
Can I impose upon someone to give me the backstory here? Why is this simple functional request such a political issue requiring segregated threads, thread closings, etc.?

I can give you my take, I suppose. (I want to preface this by saying that I realize that this is "just TV", but this is a DBS forum, and here, TV is everything. I have a life, a family, a job, and am reasonably fulfilled, with or without TV. So take this in the context of a TV based forum.)

One reason is the sheer number of users that want it. That certainly is part of it. A very large number of HR20 lessees, came to this box from either SD DirecTivos, or the HR10.

Particularly in the case of the HR10, the users were essentially forced to upgrade if they wanted to get their LiL's in HD. So, they get this box (that didn't work very well at the time), and it was inexplicably missing what many feel is a key feature, and at that, for no good reason. The thing has dual tuners, and the capability to record two HD streams, how was it possible that the designers neglected to include DLB?

Second, (and the part that I don't feel you yet appreciate, BJ) is how this particular feature changed forever the way many of us watch TV at a very basic level.

While, for me, DLB is most missed for sports programming, it was a feature that I used on a daily basis. Sure, I recorded lots of programs for later viewing. In fact, I would say most of my family's viewing was done that way. Primetime programs, movies, kids shows, etc...

But, I also like to surf. That's how I would typically find new programs I wanted to record. To me, and many others, surfing with DLB is television nirvana, and the Tivo implementation was really good. When I first discovered this feature, it was one of those "where have you been all my life" kind of moments, akin to the first time I hooked up my HDTV. Absolute bliss.

So that's another part of it, passion.

I understand, BJ, that you don't share that passion, but to understand why this topic is such a hot button, you have to realize that many do feel it, deep in their gut.

Lastly, the biggest source of annoyance, I think, to those that don't care about, or are actively against DLB (yeah, I'm looking at you JeremyW ), is the sheer number of threads that pop up. So, why do these DLB threads tend to crop up on an almost daily basis? Because most people coming to the HR20 are coming from another DVR, and most of those DVR's had DLB. Whether or not the user knew to call it that.

Many, perhaps even most, of the DLB threads come from a new member, one that recently upgraded to the HR20, and the OP is often a very innocent question such as, "How do I switch tuners on the HR20?"

Someone replies, "You can't."

The new member, not knowing the history of the "Great DLB Wars" on this forum, goes off on a rant about the lack of dual buffers, as it is such an obvious feature of a dual tuner device, that most new users would never think to check ahead of time to see if it exists on the HR20.

And the flame wars begin..... again.....

Some new members get so PO'd about this (remember the passion part), they start spamming completely unrelated threads with their displeasure about the lack of DLB. Not being invested in this forum, they don't care that their actions are contrary to the goals of this forum, and many of its members. The moderators (rightly) have to step in to close threads, or ban users, and that's where it gets political.

This is why I think the idea to have ONE sticky thread for all things DLB is a great idea. When a new member posts one of these "innocent" questions, they can be referred to the sticky, and the thread can be closed before things get out of hand. Once on the sticky, the new member can rant their brains out to a sympathetic audience. No fuss, no muss. No spamming, no bans.

At least that's my take. Thanks for listening.

[anubys]

I'd much rather have 2 30-minute live buffers than 1 90-minute...if you have NFL Sunday Ticket, dual buffers is the only way to go...

[tfederov]

I said must have (I'm still in my comfy chair you told me to take, Earl!) but if it's 90% possible it'll never happen I don't think it's going to keep me from upgrading eventually.

1) DIRECTV will eventually be upgrading everything to MPEG-4
2) When that happens, my HD TiVos will be useless (OTA aside)
3) Making the jump sooner than later will help me get used to the idea dual live buffers are gone and the new DVR's features which the TiVo doesn't have might just actually be better.

[HiDefGator]

I asked my family members the other day how important they felt dual buffers were...not one of them even knew that was a feature.

While some serious couch potatoes might consider dual buffers a crucial feature my guess would be that the majority of users have never made use of them.

On the other hand every body said a 90 minute buffer would be a great improvement. Not that the two are mutually exclusive.

[tfederov]

Maybe we can think of the HR20 like pulling off a band-aid. Not having dual buffers for us that LOVE IT may hurt for a bit but that pain will go away and we will feel much better in the long run? :D

[Herdfan]

I know Earl can't say, but I would love to know D*'s reasons for NOT wanting to give them to us.

I could understanding if it is a technology or patent issue. But if the powers at D* just don't want to give them to us for some other reason such as they don't want us to buffer two football games and watch none of the FOX commercials, well then that would suck.

[wilbur_the_goose]

It's funny - Earl was talking about D* doing regression testing on the new TiVo 6.3 software for the HR10-250. I applaud D* for doing good regression testing.

So why then have they introduced a significant regression in the new HDDVR? NFL Sunday Ticket isn't worth anything without dual tuners (same goes for NHL Center Ice).

When I told my wife about the loss of dual buffers she asked if we should switch to Comcast and just visit the local restrauant for NFL Sunday Ticket.

[Earl Bonovich]

The lack of "Daul" live buffers... isn't new to the DirecTV DVR line.
The R15 hasn't had them since it's launch either.

[mark_winn]

And that is one of the reasons I have not switched to the R15. I want the dual buffers. I use them often. It allows me to time shift without recording. I also personally really like the TIVO suggestions. After some time of learning it really does a great job of recording what I like. I only set up season passes for things I know I don't want to miss.

[Que]

I know Earl can't say, but I would love to know D*'s reasons for NOT wanting to give them to us.

I could understanding if it is a technology or patent issue. But if the powers at D* just don't want to give them to us for some other reason such as they don't want us to buffer two football games and watch none of the FOX commercials, well then that would suck.

I bet it just SPAM stuff. Something else to make them $$$. What ever it is I know I don't want or need it.

[tfederov]

This just hit me as a reason they are shying away from it.... With dual live buffers, do we technically have two receivers for the price of one?

[Earl Bonovich]

This just hit me as a reason they are shying away from it.... With dual live buffers, do we technically have two receivers for the price of one?

Nah... You still have dual tuners...
And dual buffers have been around on the DTivos for a while (they where not there at the start, but they where eventually added)

The "Mirror"/"Lease" fee is based on the # of Access Cards, not the number of tuners. If that was the case... my gosh my bill would be another $30 higher....

[agreer]

Without dual buffers, can it not record 2 feeds at once? If I can't "Live Buffer" lets say ESPN and Fox at the same time, then you cant record 2 at a time? Ny cable DVR can record 2 shows at once; if a $400 D* box cant, then forget a potential switch to D*.

[Earl Bonovich]

The HR20 can most definently record 2 things at once.

What this is about is the fact it that it cannot LIVE BUFFER two things at once.

Two similar, yet different things.

Basically a Buffer is a rolling constant recording, that never gets saved (even thought that isn't 100% true)

The HR20 only offers 1 buffer... but it can and does record two things at once.

[bonscott87]

I could care less about dual buffers. I just want it to record my programs.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

I also don't care about dual buffers as the work-around is to simply record the two shows you are interested in switching between and just delete them after watching them if you like.

What's important is the overall performance of the system and the ability to decode MPEG-2/4 so we can begin the mass roll-out of significant HD content.

-Robert

[MichiganFan]

Is there a workaround to the dual buffers? For example, if I set up two programs to record at the same time can I do the equivalent of a "Live TV button" switch, or would the program being recorded in the background need to be accessed from the menu?

How do you know which program is being buffered? Is it always the foreground, or can you record in the back and buffer in the front? How do you switch between 2 recording shows?

[nogdas]

I also don't care about dual buffers as the work-around is to simply record the two shows you are interested in switching between and just delete them after watching them if you like.

What's important is the overall performance of the system and the ability to decode MPEG-2/4 so we can begin the mass roll-out of significant HD content.

-Robert

Nope,

How record 4 games goin at once and switching between them, and buffering the last 2 was at ? So Dual Live Buffers is a MUST

Also the people who have the sports packages and etc are Directv main Income source, Lack of Dual Live Buffers will piss them off BIG TIME.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Nope,

How record 4 games goin at once and switching between them, and buffering the last 2 was at ? So Dual Live Buffers is a MUST

Also the people who have the sports packages and etc are Directv main Income source, Lack of Dual Live Buffers will piss them off BIG TIME.

Not sure I underatand your post? How could you record 4 games going on at once with the HR10-250 or any other DVR?

-Robert

[nogdas]

Not sure I underatand your post? How could you record 4 games going on at once with the HR10-250 or any other DVR?

-Robert

I meant, Since the HR20 is cippled and has no Dual Live buffers, you can not be able switch between 2 games and rewind, and then switch to a 3rd and a 4th channel, and buffer that current and last channel.

With your method you are loked into watching 2 nfl sunday ticket games at once and have no options to go to the other games on at same time, therefore crippling NFL Sunday Ticket.

[Bobman]

therefore crippling NFL Sunday Ticket.


Get two or three of them then :D . I use 3 DVR's when its NFLST time and usually cancel one after the season is over. I need to see ENTIRE games for some teams and not just a few minutes by switching back and forth between games. Even with dual buffers that wouldnt help my NFLST usage.

[ajwillys]

Get two or three of them then :D . I use 3 DVR's when its NFLST time and usually cancel one after the season is over. I need to see ENTIRE games for some teams and not just a few minutes by switching back and forth between games. Even with dual buffers that wouldnt help my NFLST usage.

I agree! Dual Live Buffers is simply not enough. When its football season it has to be two receivers and two tv's at all times. There is no other way to keep everyone happy.

[Clint Lamor]

I meant, Since the HR20 is cippled and has no Dual Live buffers, you can not be able switch between 2 games and rewind, and then switch to a 3rd and a 4th channel, and buffer that current and last channel.

With your method you are loked into watching 2 nfl sunday ticket games at once and have no options to go to the other games on at same time, therefore crippling NFL Sunday Ticket.

The moment you switch the channel from the two being buffered you are still only buffering two channels and have now lost the one you where watching. So I pretty much in the same I don't understand category.

[bonscott87]

The moment you switch the channel from the two being buffered you are still only buffering two channels and have now lost the one you where watching. So I pretty much in the same I don't understand category.

Exactly. At least when I watch ST I'll have 1 tuner pretty much on 1 game (my Bears) and then the other tuner I use to surf around the various other games. I also have another receiver should I really need it. If you just have to have 2 games buffering then yea, just set both to record.

On the Tivo's now, if you have 2 games buffering on each tuner, as soon as you tune to a 3rd game you just lost the buffer on that tuner anyway. So I'm with you, I don't get the big deal here. So my plan to get the same functionality on the HR20 would be to set the Bears game to record and then surf around on the other tuner. I lose no functionality.

Maybe the way some other use their Tivo it will be a loss in functionality but I'm just not seeing it as the buffer is dumped any time you switch channels. Unless I'm not understanding something, certainly possible.

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Thanks for the comments. Very good points guys. I will pass your comments onto the DIRECTV folks in charge so they understand your position.

Maybe they will give in to Season Ticket holders and give them the option to selectively turn off the Showcases download during the football season or as I stated earlier have the program put off the downloads till the middle of the night.

-Robert

[edpowers]

Exactly. At least when I watch ST I'll have 1 tuner pretty much on 1 game (my Bears) and then the other tuner I use to surf around the various other games. I also have another receiver should I really need it. If you just have to have 2 games buffering then yea, just set both to record.

On the Tivo's now, if you have 2 games buffering on each tuner, as soon as you tune to a 3rd game you just lost the buffer on that tuner anyway. So I'm with you, I don't get the big deal here. So my plan to get the same functionality on the HR20 would be to set the Bears game to record and then surf around on the other tuner. I lose no functionality.


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am wrong) but it was my limited understanding that the HR20 will NOT remember your pause point when you switch from your recorded Bears game to the other game on your 2nd tuner. So, when you go back to your recording Bears game, it will NOT be where you left it. I am still confused about this point, I'm not sure if it goes to Live or if it goes back to the beginning?

[Earl Bonovich]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am wrong) but it was my limited understanding that the HR20 will NOT remember your pause point when you switch from your recorded Bears game to the other game on your 2nd tuner. So, when you go back to your recording Bears game, it will NOT be where you left it. I am still confused about this point, I'm not sure if it goes to Live or if it goes back to the beginning?

Right now... this is correct... I am hoping it changes in a near future software upgrade.

[cabanaboy1977]

I'd much rather have 2 30-minute live buffers than 1 90-minute...if you have NFL Sunday Ticket, dual buffers is the only way to go...

It's possible to have 2 90 min buffers. The UTV had it. So you should be able to have your cake and eat it too if D* enables dual buffers. They shouldn't have to skimp to 30mins on each if they don't want to.

[bonscott87]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I hope I am wrong) but it was my limited understanding that the HR20 will NOT remember your pause point when you switch from your recorded Bears game to the other game on your 2nd tuner. So, when you go back to your recording Bears game, it will NOT be where you left it. I am still confused about this point, I'm not sure if it goes to Live or if it goes back to the beginning?

I think you are correct, Earl said it's supposed to work but doesn't always (unless it's another pause feature). If so I wouldn't record the game.

But even with that limitation, with all the other good things about it I'm not going to let a limitation I'll only see 3 hours week for 17 weeks stop me from getting it. :D

I had my fill of Tivo coolaid over the past 6 years, I'm ready for something new. And if it does the simple thing of record my shows that I ask it to then I'm all over it. Anything else is icing on the cake.

[harley3k]

May sound silly to some people who don't use it, but it really is a convenient feature. With the HR20 having 2 tuners, being able to record 2 shows at once, this seems like a no brainer to add... UNLESS they want to use your non-recording tuner to download SPAM all day long, or they're worried about the increased lack of commercial viewing when doing this.

I'm not a NFL Ticket fan but even so, here's an example of using dual-buffers and why I find it useful.

Late at night when there's nothing I've recoreded left to watch I will channel surf (like the old days). Usually I end up on DAVE LETTERMAN. Now I don't watch this enough to record it every night, nor would I really want to watch it later in the week (sort of like recording the news). But I also don't want to watch commercials, so I'll pause DAVE and flip to the other tuner (simple press of the DOWN ARROW on the remote) and then tune into JAY LENO. When JAY's show goes to commercial, I'll pause him, flip back to DAVE (simple press of the DOWN ARROW), and he's where I left him, paused at the commercial, but there's now enough buffer to forward past said commercials and onto the show.... When buffer runs out and commercials start again, or if there's a guest I don't care about, I'll pause him, flip back to the other guy.... The down-arrow flip functionality makes this work. If I have to RECORD 2 shows, go into my recordings and then press play (assuming it resumes from where I left off), then this is more annoying than watching the stupid commercials.

Either way you look at it, it's a feature of the HR10 that's not there in the new and improved HR20 box, that turns out isn't improved much at all.

-h

[harley3k]

It's possible to have 2 90 min buffers. The UTV had it. So you should be able to have your cake and eat it too if D* enables dual buffers. They shouldn't have to skimp to 30mins on each if they don't want to.

Ya, it's not like it takes more CPU to NOT keep anything older than 30 minutes old on the drive... It's just a point at which you mark that buffer area of the drive as 'available'. If anything it should take less CPU cycles because it would only have to do it after 90 minutes, then every minute after; instead of 30 minutes and every minute after...

Hell why can't it have enough buffer as you have hard drive space?!

-h

[Herdfan]

How I watch football:

I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.

I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.

[pdawg17]

How I watch football:

I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.

I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.

That's exactly what I do...that's where a dual buffer works great...and I know you can just record both of them but if one of the games stinks, I just want to be able to turn the channel...I don't want to have to do a stop record first and then delete that recording to save space...

[Herdfan]

...and I know you can just record both of them

But flipping between 2 recordings is not nearly as easy as a single press of ARROW DOWN or LIVE TV.

[finaldiet]

Why don't everybody get two HR20's. That would solve the problem.

[tonyd79]

Big time sports watchers understand dual buffers and LOVE them.

Those who don't watch live programming (like sports) will never understand.

Dual buffers are HUGE for watching sports. You watch one game until commercials then watch the other. Doing them as recordings requires more work, less flexibility (to change games on one of the tuners) AND requires the disk space.

DirecTV is being stupid if the reason is not purely technical to deny dual buffers. They sell a lot of sports programming and are missing what people do with their units on sports.

[Herdfan]

Why don't everybody get two HR20's. That would solve the problem.

Not really as in my media room I have access to 2 HR10's and 1 R10 letting me in essence buffer 6 games at any one time.:grin:

[JohnSorTivo]

Dual buffers are so important to me, that when I switch to HD, I will likely be leaving DirecTV, mostly to follow the Tivo Series 3, so that I can retain this feature. Personally, I have a much greater affinity to the features and functionality of my DVR than I do to my content provider.

[Que]

I also don't care about dual buffers as the work-around is to simply record the two shows you are interested in switching between and just delete them after watching them if you like.

What's important is the overall performance of the system and the ability to decode MPEG-2/4 so we can begin the mass roll-out of significant HD content.

-Robert

Earl said that it doesn't work right. It doesn't save your pause. So you have to watch one. Then watch the other one. :(

[Que]

How I watch football:

I find 2 games that I am interested in and get them one on each buffer. I pause Game 1 and flip to the other buffer to watch game 2. At the first commercial on Game 2, I pause it and go back to Game 1. I use the 30-sec skip to watch only the plays. At the next commercial of Game 1, I flip back to Game 2 and repeat the process.

I can effectively see 95% of all plays of 2 games and none of the commercials. And if something important happened that I missed with the 30-sec skip, I have the last 30 minutes in the buffer.


Same thing I do. I'am going to copy and paste that in the OT. Some people don't understand how it works, or should work. :D

[DTV TiVo Dealer]

Earl said that it doesn't work right. It doesn't save your pause. So you have to watch one. Then watch the other one. :(

I'm sure that wil be fixed very quickly.

-Robert

[Que]

I'm sure that wil be fixed very quickly.

-Robert

I hope as quickly as OTA tuners. That is something I thought that would be fixed before it was even out the door.

[wilbur_the_goose]

I'm a Tivo-phile, but I'll give D* a little leeway. When my first SD D* TiVo came out, it had only one Sat tuner activated and no OTA.

But - they gotta get dual buffers. They're taking away our suggestions, our auto-correct, our search capabilities, etc...

For the first time since 1996, I'm serously looking at alternatives. I already have FIOS broadband, just waiting for VZ to get a governmental OK to turn on the TV service.

My loyalty to Rupert/Fox/DirecTV is wearing very thin.

Please tell your friends at D* that :)

[nathanielt]

This is costing DirecTV at least one customer...me. I had the HDVR2 and loved this feature, but couldn't afford the then $1,000 for the HR10-250 when I switched to HD....so I've been paying Comcast $10 a month for a dual tuner HD DVR for the last year and a half. Not nearly as good as the old Tivo interface, but it generally works. The biggest thing I miss, however, is the two live buffers. I've kept my DirectTV account on suspension, waiting for this device and waiting to return. But failing to provide the dual buffers is probably a deal breaker for me.

[Mordha]

For me, I like the option but I sure don't use it enough to say it's a deal breaker. I do see the value of having dual live buffers at sports time, but I am hardly home long enough to justify the feature.
I would like to see it added, just not at the expense of losing the 90 min buffer, sorry :(

[BrettStah]

I can live without dual live buffers (by simply recording both games) IF the following is possible:

1) The pause location bug is fixed

2) It's possible to switch back and forth between the two things being recorded with one button press (I think Earl already has said the PREV button does this).

For those that want to switch among 3 or more games, I'm guessing that it would mostly be possible - you'd have to pick out a "main" game that you definitely want to watch, and then use the second tuner as the live tv buffer, and change channels only on that tuner as needed.

[jonaswan2]

Does anyone else think the reasons for this are technical and y'all are blowing up for little reason. I think it probably is extremely hard to implement dual buffers into this box. I mean seriously, what other XTV or XTV-based DVR has dual-buffers? Should DirecTV add them just because you'll miss them? I bet the best they can do with this OS is saving the location you paused at, and Earl said it was comming soon SO STAY PUT!!!!!!

[Earl Bonovich]

Does anyone else think the reasons for this are technical and y'all are blowing up for little reason. I think it probably is extremely hard to implement dual buffers into this box. I mean seriously, what other XTV or XTV-based DVR has dual-buffers? Should DirecTV add them just because you'll miss them? I bet the best they can do with this OS is saving the location you paused at, and Earl said it was comming soon SO STAY PUT!!!!!!

I highly doubt that it is technicalll.... Why?

What is the difference between "recording" two programs at once....
and two "buffers" recording at once?

The only "practical" difference is that in once case it has a finite start and stop point... the other... the end point is "never" and the start point is just a pointer in a file, that moves along with it...

[harley3k]

I highly doubt that it is technicalll.... Why?

What is the difference between "recording" two programs at once....
and two "buffers" recording at once?

The only "practical" difference is that in once case it has a finite start and stop point... the other... the end point is "never" and the start point is just a pointer in a file, that moves along with it...

Have you noticed any performance drop when the HR20 is recording 2 channels at once? Particularly 2 HD channels?

I ask because having 2 buffers you could switch between would mean they are both recording at all times for the buffers. The way it is now, the 2nd tuner would only be recording when scheduling required it, or when they need to send down spam/vod. Which would be 'rare' by comparison to recording 2 buffers 24/7.

So I'm just wondering if they did it for performance reasons.

It always amazed me that Tivo was able to do this and never drop any frames. I know it's not compressing the video, but just streaming the data to the hard drive. Even so, doing this for 2 HD streams is quite a task without dropping any frames. So if the OS of the HR20 isn't as efficient as Tivo's then this could be an issue. Obviously it must be able to handle it, if it does record 2 shows at once, but I wonder if doing it all the time would put a strain on the overall performance of the system and slow down menuing or any background tasks it has to do... All speculation obviously.

-h

[walters]

It always amazed me that Tivo was able to do this and never drop any frames. I know it's not compressing the video, but just streaming the data to the hard drive. Even so, doing this for 2 HD streams is quite a task without dropping any frames. So if the OS of the HR20 isn't as efficient as Tivo's then this could be an issue.

You've actually just arrived at the jist of TiVo's "Time Warping" patent. The way they've designed their system, the CPU (and therefore the OS and application software) isn't even involved--it goes straight* from the satellite tuner (or MPEG encoder for a standalone) to the hard drive via DMA. And straight from the hard drive to the decoder for playback. No other way to have done it way back then with a 54 MHz CPU and 16 MB of RAM (pretty much the same CPU and double the RAM for the first DTiVos).

* actually not straight. The audio and video get separated and timecodes get put in to help syncing on playback. It's of course a lot more complicated than that. But that's what frustrates me when people are incredulous that "TiVo patented digital video recording when so many people were already doing what they are doing", because they didn't and people weren't.

[Earl Bonovich]

Have you noticed any performance drop when the HR20 is recording 2 channels at once? Particularly 2 HD channels?

I ask because having 2 buffers you could switch between would mean they are both recording at all times for the buffers. The way it is now, the 2nd tuner would only be recording when scheduling required it, or when they need to send down spam/vod. Which would be 'rare' by comparison to recording 2 buffers 24/7.

So I'm just wondering if they did it for performance reasons.

It always amazed me that Tivo was able to do this and never drop any frames. I know it's not compressing the video, but just streaming the data to the hard drive. Even so, doing this for 2 HD streams is quite a task without dropping any frames. So if the OS of the HR20 isn't as efficient as Tivo's then this could be an issue. Obviously it must be able to handle it, if it does record 2 shows at once, but I wonder if doing it all the time would put a strain on the overall performance of the system and slow down menuing or any background tasks it has to do... All speculation obviously.

-h

I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...

No change in performance on the box...
Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.

[Que]

I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...

No change in performance on the box...
Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.


Right now I can only hope that they update the HR20 before I change over.

I welcome change. Hell I'm a tech'e kind of guy. Always love the new thing but, dang why no dual live buffer or OTA. I know some can't see or care about "HDlite" on my 64' you can tell and I LOVE OTA. I like to see what bit rate/resolution people are getting on there HR20.

So right now I'll stick with my slow HR10 in hopes that there is an update before I can/have to change over.

[Earl Bonovich]

Unless you are converting to the HR20 in the next couple months, almost certain OTA will be there.

As for Dual Live buffers..... completely different story.

[Que]

Unless you are converting to the HR20 in the next couple months, almost certain OTA will be there.

As for Dual Live buffers..... completely different story.

No I'm going to hold out for a long as I can. Maybe if they fix OTA and the pause fix. Then I might change over. Like to give it some time and see what others think about it.

[ouijal]

No I'm going to hold out for a long as I can. Maybe if they fix OTA and the pause fix. Then I might change over. Like to give it some time and see what others think about it.


Exactly what I am going to do. I am glad I found out the dual buffer/pause bug/no OTA stuff before I ran out and bought one.

[Earl Bonovich]

Exactly what I am going to do. I am glad I found out the dual buffer/pause bug/no OTA stuff before I ran out and bought one.

That is exactly why the Review exists... and the forums exist.
So you can seek out and be as informed about the product as you can be.

[drawnad]

I logged into my account on www.directv.com (so they knew I was a customer) and sent the following e-mail through their "contact us" webform:

Hi,

I have been looking forward to the new Directv HD-DVR (HR20-700) and have read the reviews on DBStalk.com.

I currently have two HR10-250s (one I own, and one I lease), and, while I am not looking forward to giving up the Tivo interface that I have grown to love, I had planned to upgrade to the HR20 when it became available -- I know that MPEG-4 will be the future for Directv, and I also hoped that the HR20 would offer much more than my HDTivo.

After reading the review on DBStalk.com, I found that the HR20 is certainly a step in the right direction, and appears to be "better" than my HR10-250 in many ways, except one -- the HR20 does not have dual live buffers!

I do not know what this (seemingly simple) feature was abandoned, but I will tell you that it is quite useful, especially during football season!

I would ask that you consider enabling dual live buffers in the HR20 -- until then, I'll hold on to my HR10s!

Thanks,


If you care about dual live buffers, I suggest you do the same!!

Mod edit: to parse out full HTTP link

[wilbur_the_goose]

Just sent a similar e-mail. Thanks.

[Que]

I sent one. I've added about turn ON OTA tuners. If it can record 2 OTA or just one. Plus added about the pause remember where I paused.

I sent one about "HDlite" before and just received a can message back but I'll send this email out.

Thanks!

[drawnad]

Here's the response to my e-mail -- I'm impressed with how quickly they responded, not so impressed with how clueless the response was:


Dear Mr. Ward,

Thanks for your interest in the DIRECTV HR20-700. While I don’t have any information today about the status of the "dual live buffers" on the new HD DVR, I have forwarded your comments on to DIRECTV management. We’re in the testing stages for our new HD DVR that can record programming broadcast in both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 format, but I don’t expect it to be available until fall. I’m sorry I don’t have any more specific information right now, but stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news about new equipment.

In addition you can learn more about DIRECTV equipment by signing up for our technical newsletter. Just respond to this message and we’ll make sure you get the all of the latest equipment news.

Thanks again for writing.

Sincerely,

John
DIRECTV Customer Service

I'd love to see the responses others get!

[cdavis]

Let's cut all the BS. Are they ever planning on adding dual buffers, Earl? If not, why?

[DC_SnDvl]

Here's the response to my e-mail -- I'm impressed with how quickly they responded, not so impressed with how clueless the response was:



I'd love to see the responses others get!

This is what I received:

Thanks for writing. While I don’t have any information today about dual live buffers for HD DVR, I have forwarded your comments on to DIRECTV management.

Our new MPEG-4-capable DIRECTV HD DVR (model HR20) is already available in the Los Angeles area and is available nationally in late August and September 2006, after we roll out our local HD programming to our first group of cities. More details will be available when we launch the HR20 receiver in your area, so watch your local TV, radio or mailbox for upcoming announcements or visit DIRECTV.com/HD

Thanks again for writing and stay tuned to DIRECTV.com for the latest news and information about HD programming.

Sincerely,

Gary
DIRECTV Customer Service

[Earl Bonovich]

Let's cut all the BS. Are they ever planning on adding dual buffers, Earl? If not, why?

There is no BS to add.

Are they EVER? As in eternity?
Can't say yes or no.

Is comming next week? or next month? probably not...

But they have taken notice to the threads and the emails..

[Que]

Here's the response to my e-mail -- I'm impressed with how quickly they responded, not so impressed with how clueless the response was:



I'd love to see the responses others get!

He is mine.

Response (Kristine A) 08/22/2006 07:02 PM
Dear,

Thank you for writing. Our new MPEG 4 HD DVR will be available in the fall of this year. Although at this time we do not have a specific date, you can learn more about DIRECTV equipment by signing up for our technical newsletter. Just respond to this message and we’ll make sure you get the all of the latest equipment news.

Moreover, we're always looking for ways to enhance our services, and customer feedback is very important to us. I have forwarded your suggestion regarding the additional features on our future receivers to DIRECTV Management.

We often make changes to our service based on customer requests, and we conduct customer surveys on a regular basis to get feedback and new ideas.

Thanks again for your suggestion, and stay tuned to DIRECTV.com for the latest news and information about our service.

Sincerely,

Tin
DIRECTV Customer Service

[longshot]

I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...

No change in performance on the box...
Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.


Don't know if this was mentioned but according to the manual you can record\watch up to 3 programs at once.

SATELLITE IN 1 (FTM) – Use to connect the DIRECTV Plus HD DVR to a second LNB
on the satellite dish antenna, giving you the ability to watch and record up to three programs at once (two from the satellite, and one from the Off -Air In). If your installation includes an FTM (Frequency Translator Module), connect the FTM output to this input. FTM is a technology that allows multiple tuners to work with a single satellite input. (FTM support may require a software upgrade. Ask your DIRECTV Installer for details.)

[walters]

I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...

No change in performance on the box...
Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.

How do we know it's unlike the HR10 until they actually activate OTA recording?

[Earl Bonovich]

How do we know it's unlike the HR10 until they actually activate OTA recording?

True

[Earl Bonovich]

Don't know if this was mentioned but according to the manual you can record\watch up to 3 programs at once.

SATELLITE IN 1 (FTM) – Use to connect the DIRECTV Plus HD DVR to a second LNB
on the satellite dish antenna, giving you the ability to watch and record up to three programs at once (two from the satellite, and one from the Off -Air In). If your installation includes an FTM (Frequency Translator Module), connect the FTM output to this input. FTM is a technology that allows multiple tuners to work with a single satellite input. (FTM support may require a software upgrade. Ask your DIRECTV Installer for details.)

All indications that I have been given, is that the segments in the manual that lead us to believe that we will be able to record 3 things at once.....

are wrong.

It is only going to be 2

[drawnad]

Has anyone else sent e-mails re: dual live buffers? If so, any responses? Interesting that they do not have a "canned" answer -- I like the response DC_SnDvl got a bit more than the one I got. . .

[newsposter]

just adding my 2 cents: why go backwards in time and not forward with technology? If tivo did it and there aren't patent issues, why not give us what tivo had and a decent amount of people enjoy? DUAL buffers!

dual buffers is a must and if dtv wants me to start to accept NDS, they need to start mimicing more of the Tivo stuff I use and enjoy every day.

[Bobman]

I rarely watch live TV and do not need dual buffers. I like the one larger buffer better and that came in handy a few times where a shorter buffer would not have.

[Bobman]

why not give us what tivo had


Because its not a TiVo. There would be little sense in dropping TiVo to only copy feature for feature what TiVo had.

If DirecTV wants acceptance of the own DVR's, IMO they need to stop supporting the DirecTiVos as soon as they get the R-15 and HR20 working and in wide release.

[sharpmibo]

Dual buffers are a strong feature for the Sunday Ticket user!

[bigpuma]

Because its not a TiVo. There would be little sense in dropping TiVo to only copy feature for feature what TiVo had.


They didn't drop TiVo because they wanted a different DVR they dropped TiVo because they didn't want to share money with them. It makes a lot of sense to keep the features from TiVo that people liked.

[Clint Lamor]

They didn't drop TiVo because they wanted a different DVR they dropped TiVo because they didn't want to share money with them. It makes a lot of sense to keep the features from TiVo that people liked.

You know this 100% positive? I don't think anyone outside of the people at Tivo and DirecTV know why the relationship came to a halt.

I'm sure there are many reasons this happened and money was only 1 of them.

[Earl Bonovich]

They didn't drop TiVo because they wanted a different DVR they dropped TiVo because they didn't want to share money with them. It makes a lot of sense to keep the features from TiVo that people liked.

What the whole whopping $2 ish per subscriber/account and only for DVR users?
It is going to take them how many years to recoop the R&D for the two DVR products.... Let alone the subsidy (sp?) on the hardware... dish upgrades... installation charges...

Yep... they did it for the money.

[henryld]

Can I vote twice?

[mpoyner]

Yep... they did it for the money.

I know, it doesnt make sense to me either that they only did it for the money. But...what else could it be?

What could possibly make them go through all of this headache and upfront R&D and free equipment costs, if they didnt think that they would be making significant monetary returns? They are a business and it would make no sense to decide to take on the headache of making the software and harware if someone else was already doing it for them, unless they stood to profit in the end.

[bonscott87]

Well, not only did they pay Tivo per subscriber, they also had the cost of support for a product they didn't own and didn't totally control.

But who really knows. Could be they didn't like Tivo's move to get in with the cable companies.
Or there was concern what would happen if Tivo went under and they didn't want to buy Tivo to save it. At least with their own DVR their fate (good or bad) is in their own hands.

We'll never know the real reason.

[wilbur_the_goose]

To me, it's the "NIH" syndrome. Not Invented Here - we see it in the Info Technology world all the time.

[gooch986]

For me, I like the option but I sure don't use it enough to say it's a deal breaker. I do see the value of having dual live buffers at sports time, but I am hardly home long enough to justify the feature.
I would like to see it added, just not at the expense of losing the 90 min buffer, sorry :(

I feel the same as you, except that I wouldn't mind losing the 90 minute in trade.

:D :D :D

[Kentstater]

I never used this feature until everyone started in on the loss of it.
I tried it, its nice, but eh, I can live without it.
I did for the past year anyway.

[KTHD Images]

I have often recorded 2 programs at once and watched a thrid since having the unit...

No change in performance on the box...
Unlike when on the HR10-250, and recording two OTA's and you definently notice a "change" in the system.

Earl,
Could you add some more detail to your comment about recording two programs while watching a third - using the new HR-20.

Am I correct that you are saying you record two different DirecTV channels on tuner 1 and tuner 2 and yet are still able to watch a live program on a third DirecTV channel (Your OTH tuners I believe you say are disabled , so all channels must be DirecTV tuners)?

Having the ability to receive 3 channels at the same time seems to go against the concept that the HR-20 has only 2 direcTV tuners.

Thanks,
KT

[philly256]

I joined the forum just so I could put in my 2 cents about the dual live buffers, particularly since Earl said on another thread that DTV is monitoring these forums. Dual live buffers is a necessity. I would like to hear the reasoning for not including that feature. Unfortunately, Earl, who has been tremondously helpful, has not been able to share DTV's reasoning.

[wilbur_the_goose]

philly - I doubt that D* has a lot of reasoning - it's just their current paradigm. If only they can get to the 'tipping point', they'll see that this one little feature is the deal breaker for a significant majority of their upper-tier customers.

They're not dumb - they're a smart group of folks dedicated to making a profit and servicing their customers.

I really think they'll get there.

If not, I have the number for FIOS :shrug:

[mikewolf13]

What the whole whopping $2 ish per subscriber/account and only for DVR users?
It is going to take them how many years to recoop the R&D for the two DVR products.... Let alone the subsidy (sp?) on the hardware... dish upgrades... installation charges...

Yep... they did it for the money.

No they did it out of the kindness of theire heart?

Of course it's for the money, yes $2/month/DVR subscriber...plus the control the design of the future products /offerings/ technology....

that's all for the money.

Of course...

whether it was the best decision..is debatable...but clearly $$$ is always the prime motivation.

[TheRatPatrol]

Well, not only did they pay Tivo per subscriber, they also had the cost of support for a product they didn't own and didn't totally control.

But who really knows. Could be they didn't like Tivo's move to get in with the cable companies.
Or there was concern what would happen if Tivo went under and they didn't want to buy Tivo to save it. At least with their own DVR their fate (good or bad) is in their own hands.

We'll never know the real reason.
Then they should have bought Tivo a few years ago when they had the chance, then they could have had total control over the product.

Then they could have changed their name to DirecTiVo. :D

[DixonJDixon]

I joined DBS just so I could vote and respond. I've been with Directv since 1996. Dual buffers is an absolute must for sports watching. I'm waiting for the S3 to come out so I can compare it to the HR20.

If the HR20 doesn't have dual buffers by then, bye bye Directv (and NFLST) and hello Comcast.

[newsposter]

Because its not a TiVo. There would be little sense in dropping TiVo to only copy feature for feature what TiVo had.


um, i was thinking more along the lines of keeping the tivo features THEN adding all the other stuff on top of it.

keeps us tivo lovers happy and maybe even happier if the new features are there...if we dont like the new features, at least we will have the old to placate us.

keeps us happy and them happy

[bonscott87]

Earl,
Could you add some more detail to your comment about recording two programs while watching a third - using the new HR-20.

Am I correct that you are saying you record two different DirecTV channels on tuner 1 and tuner 2 and yet are still able to watch a live program on a third DirecTV channel (Your OTH tuners I believe you say are disabled , so all channels must be DirecTV tuners)?

Having the ability to receive 3 channels at the same time seems to go against the concept that the HR-20 has only 2 direcTV tuners.

Thanks,
KT

No, it's just like the Tivo's. Record 2 things at once while watching a 3rd *previously recorded* program.

[gr8reb8]

I would like it if DTV would give us a choice. Do we want the convenience of having on demand ppv available or would we rather have dual live buffers. Seems like it would be an easy option/choice that could be added to the menus. The ones who really want the dual buffers will not be upset and be unhappy users, and for the rest, they will have their on demand content available... Just thinking logic here...

[tonyd79]

The problem with the VoD versus dual buffers is the same as VoD versus dual tuners.

If the reasoning is that VoD takes up the buffer, it would do the same for the tuner, so advertising "TWO TUNERS" is a bit bogus.

I don't see it as a big deal. Right now, in the middle of the night, my second tuner/buffer is used by showcases and other data. I live with it without complaining.

ANY reasoning that ties VoD in with the lack of dual buffers is bad reasoning.

[KTHD Images]

No, it's just like the Tivo's. Record 2 things at once while watching a 3rd *previously recorded* program.

Scott,

Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

KT

[cjr]

Forget dual buffers. There should be quad buffers.

If you you have Dual SAT Tuners and Dual ATSC Tuners(currently disabled) according to the specs/Earl, there should be quad buffers.

But dual buffers, let alone quad buffers are useless without a tuner swap button, which the HR20 doesn't have. And don't tell me the to use the Prev button. I just want to swap tuners not go back to a previous channel.

[TheRatPatrol]

Forget dual buffers. There should be quad buffers.

If you you have Dual SAT Tuners and Dual ATSC Tuners(currently disabled) according to the specs/Earl, there should be quad buffers.

But dual buffers, let alone quad buffers are useless without a tuner swap button, which the HR20 doesn't have. And don't tell me the to use the Prev button. I just want to swap tuners not go back to a previous channel.
I totally agree, if it has 4 tuners it should be able to record 4 things at once.

A tuner swap button would be good, but I think it needs PIP too. :D

[chris_h]

Okay, I admit I never have used the dual-buffer feature on my HR10. Until a few days ago, I did not understand why fellow football fanatics don't just set up recordings for the games they plan to watch (which is what I do). I get it now. I don't have ST, but you do. You have eight (or so) games on at once, and you want to decide which ones you will watch on the fly. You might even watch a piece of all 8 games. So dual live buffers (DLB) is a must.

I understand that if DLB is active 24/7 that there would never be a tuner available to download VOD content, which is probably part of D* long term plans, and they likely see it as needed to compete with cable.

I have a question for those of you who use DLB regularly. If D* added an option to activate DLB for say 2/4/8 hours at a time, would that work for you? Seems to me like the best of both worlds. You still have VOD downloads when you are not using DLB. You get your DLB feature when you need it.

[Stanley Kritzik]

With the HR10-250, if the tuners are tuned, say, to CH A & B, and the unit is in "Standby" mode, when it is turned back on, the buffers each are holding the latest 30 minutes of "A" and "B", even if no "record" is set up. So, one has up to 1/2 hour to recover from a "senior moment", or a realization that, say, there was something "big" on the news that should be looked at.

That's the way it ought to be with the new box, only more so. D* is making a serious mistake if they don't at least match the feature on the HR10-250, in my opinion. And, as I tell my wife -- I'm right, as usual!

Stan

[bonscott87]

I understand that if DLB is active 24/7 that there would never be a tuner available to download VOD content, which is probably part of D* long term plans, and they likely see it as needed to compete with cable.

I have a question for those of you who use DLB regularly. If D* added an option to activate DLB for say 2/4/8 hours at a time, would that work for you? Seems to me like the best of both worlds. You still have VOD downloads when you are not using DLB. You get your DLB feature when you need it.

This is easily solved by downloading VOD content in the middle of the night as they did with the showcases on the Tivo's. Or use the broadband connection and download the VOD that way.

[Earl Bonovich]

With the HR10-250, if the tuners are tuned, say, to CH A & B, and the unit is in "Standby" mode, when it is turned back on, the buffers each are holding the latest 30 minutes of "A" and "B", even if no "record" is set up. So, one has up to 1/2 hour to recover from a "senior moment", or a realization that, say, there was something "big" on the news that should be looked at.

That's the way it ought to be with the new box, only more so. D* is making a serious mistake if they don't at least match the feature on the HR10-250, in my opinion. And, as I tell my wife -- I'm right, as usual!

Stan

The HR10-250 doesn't continues buffer once it goes into standby mode. (The HR20 does though).

When you go to standby mode in the HR10-250... that 30 minutes in the buffer was the 30 minutes BEFORE you shut the unit down.

The HR20 will continue to buffer even while in standby mode.

[chris_h]

This is easily solved by downloading VOD content in the middle of the night as they did with the showcases on the Tivo's. Or use the broadband connection and download the VOD that way.


Are the showcases the things with the little yellow star in the main tivo menu, or something else?

I think that those are limited in size, and VOD would probably be much longer (depending on how they choose to implement it). Either way, you still do not get DLB 24/7. But I guess your point is that you do not have it now on the HR10 either.

Obviously if you use the broadband connection for VOD, not the tuners, it becomes a non-issue (as long as the system resources can support all that fun at once).

[Stanley Kritzik]

The HR10-250 doesn't continues buffer once it goes into standby mode. (The HR20 does though).

When you go to standby mode in the HR10-250... that 30 minutes in the buffer was the 30 minutes BEFORE you shut the unit down.

The HR20 will continue to buffer even while in standby mode.

Thanks for correcting my erroneous belief. So, to keep my wish list alive, I'm stromgly for double buffering even while in standby -- buffering the two channels the tuners were last tuned to. That's the neat way to do it, and since, every six months or so, disk capacity increases, why not just do it? Be strategic and assume that by next year, 1 GB drives will be plentiful. (Lexar is up to 4 GB on compact flash cards already.)

PS What about protection, as RAID or the ability to back up to a network? No one wants to lose fifty treasured programs, and drives do fail. They all have MTBFs of about 3 to 4 years, and spread over millions of devices, that means one or more failures a day.

Stan

Stan

[bonscott87]

Are the showcases the things with the little yellow star in the main tivo menu, or something else?

I think that those are limited in size, and VOD would probably be much longer (depending on how they choose to implement it). Either way, you still do not get DLB 24/7. But I guess your point is that you do not have it now on the HR10 either.

Obviously if you use the broadband connection for VOD, not the tuners, it becomes a non-issue (as long as the system resources can support all that fun at once).


Yea, I think my point really is that I think they could enable dual buffers and still have the VOD stuff download. I'd say when it wants to download VOD (during off hours or whatever) then it may need to disable the 2nd buffer but then turn it back on after it's done.

But I'm starting to see why the decided to go with just 1 buffer as there is a lot of things to figure out and consider if they need the other for the VOD stuff. Enable broadband and the problem is solved. ;)

[drawnad]

I think an easy way to solve this problem would be to have the box "plan" to use the second tuner for a user-defined time period (i.e. 1:00 A.M. to 8:00 A.M.) to download VOD, etc.-- inform the user that the longer this period, the more VOD they can have -- I'd have mine run from midnight to 8:00 P.M. on my big TV during the week.

At the beginning of that period, a nag screen could come up that says "Preparing to accept VOD Download, during this period, dual live buffer use will be suspended" -- have "OK" be the default, but also have a "snooze 1 hour" option -- if there is no key input for 30 seconds, then the receiver knows no one is watching, and thus can utilize the background tuner for VOD. -- I am thinking of the screen you get on a tivo when it wants to change the cannel to record something -- the default is "OK, go ahead and change it" -- if you don't do anything, it will change and start recording, but you also have the "cancel recording" option if you would rather keep watching what you are watching.

How hard would this be to implement? Doesn't this satisify everyone's concerns?

[bonscott87]

Sounds like a plan to me!

[tonyd79]

I think an easy way to solve this problem would be to have the box "plan" to use the second tuner for a user-defined time period (i.e. 1:00 A.M. to 8:00 A.M.) to download VOD, etc.-- inform the user that the longer this period, the more VOD they can have -- I'd have mine run from midnight to 8:00 P.M. on my big TV during the week.


Why not just use the second buffer for VOD if it is not being used live?

Just like they do with the DTiVos. When the showcase stuff comes on, it assumes it is programmed. If you try to change the channel on that tuner, it tells you that you will lose content. Then you decide. Let it reset with each new VoD item that comes down. Prompt the user that the tuner will change and ask them if they want it to with a warning that you will lose a portion of VOD content if you don't let it go.

This is not rocket science and is already implemented on DTV DVRs (albeit TiVos). Or is that a TiVo patent? :hurah:

[drawnad]

Tony D's solution is much easier . . . is that the "DVR Showcase 3" I catch my tivo watching when I am not around?

All of these suggestions show that saying that the dual live buffer/VOD issue is and "either/or" proposition is a bunch of bunk.

Now let's get those dual live buffers activated!!

[Wolffpack]

Why not just use the second buffer for VOD if it is not being used live?

Just like they do with the DTiVos. When the showcase stuff comes on, it assumes it is programmed. If you try to change the channel on that tuner, it tells you that you will lose content. Then you decide. Let it reset with each new VoD item that comes down. Prompt the user that the tuner will change and ask them if they want it to with a warning that you will lose a portion of VOD content if you don't let it go.

This is not rocket science and is already implemented on DTV DVRs (albeit TiVos). Or is that a TiVo patent? :hurah:
I agree Tony. DTivos use spare tuners every night...or at least every other.

Again, not rocket science. Plus, if a VOD cannot be downloaded at that point, try again later.

[wilbur_the_goose]

Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.

[chris_h]

Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.


Semi-honest answer: Those with the Titanium package at $7500/year. :)

I tend to think of my now playing list as my personalized VOD.

[mnbulldog]

I miss my UTV w/2 60 min buffers. And with a 300GB hdd I would assume they could do any size they wanted. So - 2 60 min buffer is my request ... but been living with Tivo's 2-30 min buffers for a while.

Just hook us up with dual buffer love - please!

[Wolffpack]

Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.
I don't believe there is any target customer. It's just to say DTV has VOD like all the cable cos do. Doesn't matter if they are used.

My vod is Netflix. Until any provider has the complete catalog Netflix does and can deliver it within the next 10 mins they should drop the subject. Doesn't interest me I won't buy it just as I don't buy PPVs.

[leo81948]

I would love to have dual buffers and I am not a sports fan. I just find it easier to watch 2 programs simulaneously and jump back and forth between commercials. If I've missed something I can just rewind a bit. Without dual buffers I have to do more recording. This was the one thing I missed the most when I gave up my Tivo.

[Wally_Gator]

Dual buffers for me Please....

I am not a huge sports fan, but I am an avid channel surfer.
there were a couple of programs that I could have used the second buffer...

Not to mention pause point retention...

[wilbur_the_goose]

Confirmed that we need dual buffers. I was watching 2 football games last night in HD - Steelers/Eagles and Giants/Jets. Without even thinking about it, we'd pause the Steelers game at a break, watch the Giants till a break, pause and flip back to Steelers.

Routine NFL Sunday Ticket behavior.

Without dual tuners, I'll just go down to my local sports restrauant and watch all the games.

In other words, I'll cancel Sunday Ticket if I don't have dual buffers. (I'm good for this year because I'll keep my HR10-250s - at least until D* forces me to give them up - either to the new HR20-700 or to Comcast/FIOS).

Of course, this is all moot if D* decides to enable dual buffers.

By the way, I sent an e-mail to DirecTV.. Here's their reply:
Thanks for your interest in the DIRECTV HD-DVR (HR20-700). While I do not have information on the plans of adding or status of "the dual live buffers' on the new HD DVR, I have forwarded your email to our Management team for appropriate action. We’re in the testing stages for our new HD DVR that can record programming broadcast in both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 format, but I don’t expect it to be available until fall. I’m sorry I don’t have any more specific information right now, but stay tuned to directv.com for the latest news about new equipment.

[morgantown]

Just a thought -- 'ya think that the PIP guide is what is taking up that outer "tuner?"

Dual buffers is a "major" advantage...why have the availability to record two shows at once if you cant take advantage of the buffers to watch two things when you're not recording them.

[jonaswan2]

Not according to NDS

[Earl Bonovich]

The "PIG" (Picture in Guide)
Definently doesn't use the other tuner..

You can have another program recording on the background tuner, and the PIG works just fine.

[Earl Bonovich]

Not according to NDS

And except for the Access Card technology...

NDS has 100% ZERO to do with the HR20.
The HR20 is completely under the DirecTV side of things.

[jonaswan2]

And except for the Access Card technology...

NDS has 100% ZERO to do with the HR20.
The HR20 is completely under the DirecTV side of things.

I know that, but they use NDS middleware right? Yep. That is what powers the guide (according to NDS of course). So even if DirecTV made the guide themselves (which they have for all of the DirecTV branded recievers), NDS tech is powering it.

[Earl Bonovich]

I know that, but they use NDS middleware right? Yep. That is what powers the guide (according to NDS of course). So even if DirecTV made the guide themselves (which they have for all of the DirecTV branded recievers), NDS tech is powering it.

As far as I have been told, the HR20 is not using the same middleware as the R15

[jonaswan2]

As far as I have been told, the HR20 is not using the same middleware as the R15

NOW you decide to tell me. I wonder what they could be using for middleware? Maybe OpenTV because that's what Canal uses now I think.

BTW Don't they have a contractual agreement that they have to use MediaHighway with all new DirecTV equipment or did that end when Thompson (sp?) sold the technology to NDS?

[khajath]

As far as I have been told, the HR20 is not using the same middleware as the R15

Cousin of my friend is a contractor for DIRECTV, testing HR20 and other set top box (and I just found out that HR20 uses chip from my new employer: Broadcom), and he says the same thing.

In fact, he told me that ALL receiver from DIRECTV use the program guide and search software developed by DIRECTV, and the encryption/decryption software from NDS. Some box like D10, H20, and R15 use the NDS middleware. The HR20 uses the middleware developed entirely in house by DIRECTV, and this is their first.

[jonaswan2]

Cousin of my friend is a contractor for DIRECTV, testing HR20 and other set top box (and I just found out that HR20 uses chip from my new employer: Broadcom), and he says the same thing.

In fact, he told me that ALL receiver from DIRECTV use the program guide and search software developed by DIRECTV, and the encryption/decryption software from NDS. Some box like D10, H20, and R15 use the NDS middleware. The HR20 uses the middleware developed entirely in house by DIRECTV, and this is their first.

Awesome, so it supports everything that they have made for the NDS middleware, but now they can fix it and tweek it to what they want it to be. I can't imagine it being any worse than MediaHighway, so a "WHOOT!" for change. Now all they have to do is dump the NDS CA (please lord NO! NDS made this absolutely right).

[Stanley Kritzik]

Thanks for correcting my erroneous belief. So, to keep my wish list alive, I'm stromgly for double buffering even while in standby -- buffering the two channels the tuners were last tuned to. That's the neat way to do it, and since, every six months or so, disk capacity increases, why not just do it? Be strategic and assume that by next year, 1 GB drives will be plentiful. (Lexar is up to 4 GB on compact flash cards already.)

PS What about protection, as RAID or the ability to back up to a network? No one wants to lose fifty treasured programs, and drives do fail. They all have MTBFs of about 3 to 4 years, and spread over millions of devices, that means one or more failures a day.

Stan

Stan

After trying things on the HR10-250, here's what actually happens. Say one tuner is set to Ch. "A", and the other to Ch. "B". Now assume you were watching Ch.A, so the "A"-tuned tuner was "selected". Next, put the unit in Standby, and wake it up two hours later.

You would find that the "A" programming is being buffered, with the current latest 30 minutes available to watch or retroactively "record" and save, while the "B" programming is new, as of the time the 10-250 woke up. So, it is what each tuner is tuned to, and which was the last one to be slected. But, there IS life after "Stand By".

Agree?

Stan

[vikingguy]

I vote for dual buffer all the way. With out them sunday ticket is worthless to me and I will not re-up for it next year with out dual buffers. Unless the HD-games in mpeg 2 next year and I can use my hd-tivo still.

[harley3k]

Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.

Exactly... Unless the VOD is in HD, it's worthless to me.
And if it is in HD, well, the HR20 needs a bigger hard drive.

-h

[harley3k]

Exactly... Unless the VOD is in HD, it's worthless to me.
And if it is in HD, well, the HR20 needs a bigger hard drive.

-h

[yes quoting myself]

But hey, since I'm switching to FIOS anyway, it's moot. And FIOS doesn't have any HD-VOD yet either, so still worthless, but because it is cable(er fiber), at least it is really VOD - 'Video on Demand' from a server somewhere, and not VOPRDTUSOMHD - Video On-Pre-Recorded-Demand-Taking-Up-Space-On-My-Hard-Drive.

:rolleyes:

-h

[TheRatPatrol]

the HR20 needs a bigger hard drive.
I agree, it should have had at least a 500 gig or 2 500 gig drives. Then maybe we could have recorded 4 things at once, 2 signals (2 OTA, 2 Sat) to each hard drive. :D

[thebarge]

I vote for dual buffers. To be honest, I won't even think about touching the HR20 if it doesn't have dual buffers. I don't have NFL sunday ticket, but I find myself using dual buffers on my Tivo-based devices a lot. If my wife gets on the phone or something, I'll tend to pause whatever we were watching and switch to the other tuner while I wait on her to get done. Then when she comes back, switch back to what we were watching and continue.

[OverThereTooMuch]

Honest question - who IS the target customer for VOD? Every relative of mine with a cable system with VOD has never used it.I didn't know either, until I visited my brother. He has comcast, and they have a bunch of kids shows on the VOD. So whenever he has an urgent need for his little guy to watch Bob The Builder or Thomas the Train, it's easy to get to. :)

[BrettStah]

I didn't know either, until I visited my brother. He has comcast, and they have a bunch of kids shows on the VOD. So whenever he has an urgent need for his little guy to watch Bob The Builder or Thomas the Train, it's easy to get to. :)

I do that now, with my current DirecTivos - lots of space, low-priority season passes galore for the kids on one of them, always something for them to choose from. It really bums them out if we're somewhere without a DVR and they want to watch a specific show, or want me to pause what they're watching for some reason and I can't.

[Que]

I have no idea why either. Plus there is no way to turn it off if you wanted too.


Earl you were 98% (something like that) that live dual buffer would not make it before all this. Then that changed and they are now talking about it.

So what is the % now?

[wilbur_the_goose]

Que,
Well asked...

Here's the gist of it. If D* gets dual tuners, I will guarantee that I still stay with DirecTV, get the new dish/ DVR, and spend even more money with them.

Heck - I'd much rather stay with my "partner" than divorce them.

[wilbur_the_goose]

Que,
Well asked...

Here's the gist of it. If D* gets dual tuners, I will guarantee that I still stay with DirecTV, get the new dish/ DVR, and spend even more money with them. And I already spend way too much $$$.

Heck - I'd much rather stay with my "partner" than divorce them.

[Earl Bonovich]

I have no idea why either. Plus there is no way to turn it off if you wanted too.


Earl you were 98% (something like that) that live dual buffer would not make it before all this. Then that changed and they are now talking about it.

So what is the % now?

50% - 50%

[thebarge]

50% - 50%Wow I was hoping for better odds. I'm worried that D* won't update my HR10 to 6.x and I'll be stuck with the horrible slowness and no folders, and won't be able to upgrade to the HR20 due to no dual buffers (it's a deal killer for me).

[rick71ghia]

I was thinking of getting an HR20 and was checking to see what people had to say about it. Landed here and discovered that it didn't have dual buffers. I'm a sports fan and without dual buffers or a commitment to add them on the part of Directv, I won't add an HR20 to my system. If they don't have dual buffers when the series 3 tivo comes out, I'll probably switch to comcast.

[anubys]

what bothers me is that I see no reason NOT to include dual buffers...if the thing has the ability to record two things at once, then it's simply a software CHOICE that they are making...

it makes no sense whatsoever to make a decision not to give a good percentage (I won't say majority) of your customers something that they really want...

is there an good explanation for why they don't want to include this option?

[Earl Bonovich]

I changed it to 50%-50%... because just over the last week, they started to discuss in more.... They are investigating the best method to implement a dual buffer scheme, that still fits into the model they have built for "their" DVR platform.

The odds could increase a lot over the next few weeks.

And you are correct... it is a software "CHOICE" they they made.

To Rick.... then you might as well order your Series 3 then, as they are not going to have dual buffers in two weeks (since reports of the Series 3 comming out around the 17th.... then again, it is also reported to be almost $800 as well)

[anubys]

Earl:

any rationale you know for why they are making this choice? I'm curious to what "the other side" is arguing...those who want to choose not to have dual buffers; what are they saying? what is their reason?

[Wally_Gator]

I would have to guess the CHOICE has to do with memory constraints, performance AND future PLANNED features.

[Earl Bonovich]

Earl:

any rationale you know for why they are making this choice? I'm curious to what "the other side" is arguing...those who want to choose not to have dual buffers; what are they saying? what is their reason?

Hmmm... what is the best way to answer that... how about... "because" :D

I really don't have any "solid" reasons... From what I can gather it was a combination of a lot of factors, not one specific one. Let's just say, they have definently taken intrest to the feedback of the dual buffer disucssion.

[carl6]

I think the background pushing of VOD plays a major role in the dual buffer issue.

Carl

[thebarge]

Memory constraints? I'd hope that HR20 has more memory than the HR10. If a 2 year old HR10 can do it the HR20 should be able to.

[Earl Bonovich]

Memory constraints? I'd hope that HR20 has more memory than the HR10. If a 2 year old HR10 can do it the HR20 should be able to.

It is not a memory constraint, nor performance.
As there is really ZERO system difference between recording two things at once, and having two recording buffers at once.

[Montyward]

I left D* for E* because of the dual buffer issue. The VIP does have dual buffers, though it could be a little bit better implemented. It sure beats only one buffer.
If anybody wants an HR10-250, please send me a PM.

[HarleyD]

I was set to get an HR20 as soon as I could, but the lack of a dual live buffer has slowed me down considerably.

Now I'm more inclined to continue to wait into and possibly through 2007.

The content volume will improves, hopefully the slimline dish becomes available and maybe either an HR20 software upgrade or newer box altogether that supports dual live buffers is available.

Some folks have kind of poo-poohed this as a minor thing, but when you've had it, and for whatever reason you use and enjoy it, it's hard to just let it go when you know the technology exists and has existed for some time.

[lpctv]

Hmmm... what is the best way to answer that... how about... "because" :D

I really don't have any "solid" reasons... From what I can gather it was a combination of a lot of factors, not one specific one. Let's just say, they have definently taken intrest to the feedback of the dual buffer disucssion.

Earl, maybe this has been addressed before...as you can tell, I'm new here and with the amount of stuff being posted about the HR20, I haven't had the time to do a proper search.
It seems to me that this isn't really a new issue. The R15 didn't come with dual buffers and now, the new "flagship" product is following suit. I'm guessing that people have been bitching about this or, at the very least, arguing and being very curious about DBs for a while now.
There must have been a "solid" reason for D* to go this route. Of course, theres been a lot of speculation on this board about what it could be (VoD, etc., etc.) but, is there any way that perhaps your sources would allow you to share the exact reasoning for this move?
Unlike AutoCorrect, I don't think we're talking about a proprietary TiVo issue here. So, what was the thinking?
Thanks in advance.

[wilbur_the_goose]

lpctv,
I don't think it's anything as insidious as what you mention.

My guess is that they didn't think it was a big deal, and they could use the second tuner for VOD downloads.

In my world, they could accomplish both in the same/similar way TiVo handles recording of suggestions - the DVR asks if it's OK to switch the tuner you're not using.

-----------------------
To me, dual buffers are the key differentiating factor between the HR10-250 and the new HD DVR. If the buffers were there, I'd be on the list.

Fortunately for me, my Pennsylvania township just granted a franchise to Verizon FIOS to start delivery of their TV service.

[lpctv]

lpctv,
I don't think it's anything as insidious as what you mention.

My guess is that they didn't think it was a big deal, and they could use the second tuner for VOD downloads.



I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything insidious - not looking to "X-Files" this.
Mostly, I am curious because this really isn't a new issue. It wasn't there with the first non TiVo spawning from D* and it's not there now.
I would have thought that they would have noticed before this and made things better with the R20 unless they had a real good reason (technical or otherwise) not to implement it.
I mean, lets say that this is a way for D* to open up new services, why not just come out and say "by the time we show you what this new baby can do without DBs, you'll forget about ever wanting them" or something like that. Or, conversley, if it was something else more along the lines of "we didn't think it was a useful feature", then let them say that.
I'm thinking that from a purely CS perspective to have all the rampant speculation and people bitchin about features missing, it's really not healthy. If I was a D* CS exec, I'd want to spin this in my favor and not let it possibly spin out of control...

[Que]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply anything insidious - not looking to "X-Files" this.
Mostly, I am curious because this really isn't a new issue. It wasn't there with the first non TiVo spawning from D* and it's not there now.
I would have thought that they would have noticed before this and made things better with the R20 unless they had a real good reason (technical or otherwise) not to implement it.
I mean, lets say that this is a way for D* to open up new services, why not just come out and say "by the time we show you what this new baby can do without DBs, you'll forget about ever wanting them" or something like that. Or, conversley, if it was something else more along the lines of "we didn't think it was a useful feature", then let them say that.
I'm thinking that from a purely CS perspective to have all the rampant speculation and people bitchin about features missing, it's really not healthy. If I was a D* CS exec, I'd want to spin this in my favor and not let it possibly spin out of control...

So are you saying they are telling Earl to tell us it's 50% -50% now when it's really all false hope? Just putting us off... and off? On something there NOT really going to do anyways?

[lpctv]

So are you saying they are telling Earl to tell us it's 50% -50% now when it's really all false hope? Just putting us off... and off? On something there NOT really going to do anyways?

I'm not sure where you're getting that interpretation.

Based on your follow up question, we now know that it's no longer 98-2; it's now 50-50. That's definitely a better scenario. And, at least from my point of view, more reason to hope - yes, I would really like to have DBs. So, it seems that following up with poignant questions gets us further down the road, right?

By the same token, aren't you curious as to why it took this to get that percentage to change? Wouldn't you agree that it would make things better if D* was able to share what the reasons were to leave it out of both the 15 and the 20? Am, I hoping for too much here?

[Earl Bonovich]

No one told me what to say.

The 50-50 is my theory based all pieces I have.

[lpctv]

No one told me what to say.

The 50-50 is my theory based all pieces I have.

Thanks for the clarification, Earl.

I kind of figured that was it and thats why I had hoped to get a more definitive answer. I'm hoping that at some point your channel will either allow you to share some facts about this decision or, one of their people on this board will speak directly for the company about this.
If anything, the indicators you're using to re-evaluate your assesment and the poll results themselves are indicators that this is a very relevant issue that should merit addressing.

Mod Edit: To fix my typo in your quote

[tfederov]

First weekend of college football... flipped back and forth between two games on my HD TiVo....

I'm back in the camp that will now hold out as long as possible until either a) the HD TiVo is obsolete or b) dual live buffers come to the HR20. Sorry, DIRECTV... if you aren't going to give us live dual buffers on your new DVR, you should never have given the thumbs up (no pun intended) to the HR10 to do the same thing.

[Wolffpack]

First weekend of college football... flipped back and forth between two games on my HD TiVo....

I'm back in the camp that will now hold out as long as possible until either a) the HD TiVo is obsolete or b) dual live buffers come to the HR20. Sorry, DIRECTV... if you aren't going to give us live dual buffers on your new DVR, you should never have given the thumbs up (no pun intended) to the HR10 to do the same thing.
I'm beginning to think this whole issue revolves around the fact that while they knew that dual buffers existed on Tivo units (I would hope), they thought the primary reason was to record two shows at once. I don't think the DTV DVR design team did much customer/market testing on their new product design (look at the limits) and I'm almost certain they had no idea we used the dual tuners in this fashion. If they did, it may have been one or two sports fans on the development team that said "hey, if we're replacing those Tivo units we better provide this functionality" to which the reset of the team replies "that's stupid. Just cuz you sports geeks do that doesn't mean it's something everyone wants".

[lpctv]

I don't think the DTV DVR design team did much customer/market testing on their new product design (look at the limits) and I'm almost certain they had no idea we used the dual tuners in this fashion.

It depends on how you define customer and market testing.

1. No LDBs probably equals spam with VoD.
2. 30 second skip vs 30 second slip.
3. No pause and continue.
4. Etc., Etc.

I'd say that if you count their content providers as customers, then they seem to have achieved all they set out to... :nono2:

[Earl Bonovich]

#1 LDBs ?

#2 has nothing to do with customers... that has to do with networks, advertisers, ect.... hence why TiVo's is not an "official" feature, it is backdoored... 30s Slip was added to the R15 after it's release because users of the system wanted some sort of "skip" feature.

#3 Bug; as it is there as of this release (BE), you have to hit EXIT though

#4 ... okay what would etc, etc, be....

[Wolffpack]

Earl, you realize that this Dual Buffer discussion here under the HR20 umbrella also applies to the R15 umbrella? Just a not to the silent folks here. If you go turning on dual buffers for the HR20 without turning them on for the R15.....I cannot guess at the amount of crap you will hear on these forums.

I've watched as the HR20 issues are progressing, but everyone better keep in mind there a huge R15 base that right now is waiting for the stability and limit increase (TDL) in the HR20 that Earl noted is brought to the R15. Don't forget about the R15.

[lpctv]

#1 LDBs ?

#2 has nothing to do with customers... that has to do with networks, advertisers, ect.... hence why TiVo's is not an "official" feature, it is backdoored... 30s Slip was added to the R15 after it's release because users of the system wanted some sort of "skip" feature.

#3 Bug; as it is there as of this release (BE), you have to hit EXIT though

#4 ... okay what would etc, etc, be....

1. Live Dual Buffers
2. The whole point of my post. That they paid way more attention to them than trying to figure out what the customer might want. You're too quick to come to D*s defense...you missed the underlying sarcasm of my response. Remember that I was quoting Wolffpacks post and I specifically singled out one line in it.
3. Wonder if we will need to wait for FF for some stable fixes?
4. Negative padding is the first that comes to mind right away.

[lpctv]

Earl, you realize that this Dual Buffer discussion here under the HR20 umbrella also applies to the R15 umbrella? Just a not to the silent folks here. If you go turning on dual buffers for the HR20 without turning them on for the R15.....I cannot guess at the amount of crap you will hear on these forums.

I've watched as the HR20 issues are progressing, but everyone better keep in mind there a huge R15 base that right now is waiting for the stability and limit increase (TDL) in the HR20 that Earl noted is brought to the R15. Don't forget about the R15.

I mentioned this in another reply...it wasn't in the 15 and it's not in the 20. Based on agreeing with your assumption that they didn't do any focus marketing groups, I'd say they have had other plans for why it's not in there in the first place. Except that no one seems to clearly state why (or why not)...so, let the speculation continue...

[hoopsrgreat]

I am a sports junkie, but I use the 2 live buffers everyday, regardless if I am watching sports. I will watch CNN, and surely also go find something else to watch. Then switch back and forth everytime a comercial comes on. This is a MAJOR problem for me in regards to getting rid of a tivo based HD DVR and switching to the HR20. Only when the HR20 would allow me to see my A's and Kings in HD fro the RSN would I switch. Since I was told I would be able to get the RSN in HD after I got the h20( I got one, only to find out that was a bunch of crap) I dont see much use for the Hr20 for me right now. To heck with recording 2 channels and playing that game. The beauty of the 2 dual live buffers is how easy it is to use. Take that ease of use away, and you make using a DVR a pain in the butt.

They MUST GET DUAL live buffers on the HR20.

[Wolffpack]

One item from another thread that should also be mentioned here. If Dual Live buffers are ever implemented on the DVR+ line of DVRs, it would be completely useless to those of us that want this feature if we cannot pause each buffer independently while switching between them.

For example. Watching buffer 1, game goes to commercial I pause it and switch to buffer 2. When the game on buffer 2 goes to commercial I pause that and switch back to buffer 1, unpause it and then skip/slip forward past the commercial. When I hit the next commercial on buffer 1 I pause again and switch to buffer 2. Unpause that and skip/slip ahead past the commercial. That keeps going.

So, to the DTV folks that may be considering Dual Live Buffers, make sure you know how we use that feature. Talk to some folks out here so that you don't release a feature such as this only to find out you're missing an important part (pausing).

[lpctv]

So, to the DTV folks that may be considering Dual Live Buffers, make sure you know how we use that feature. Talk to some folks out here so that you don't release a feature such as this only to find out you're missing an important part (pausing).

Are you basing that on the fact that you can't currently pause and resume a recorded program? Only asking since I think it was mentioned that this is currently listed as a bug.
Or, do you think that there's a whole separate level of logic that they would have to build in just to do the dual buffer scenario and pauses?

There is one other apsect of this that I was just thinking about...not sure if it's been brought up yet as a possible "why it's not implemented" reason. Would the buffering logic interfere with the + features? If you buffer a game (or record), do the stats and scores features show live or time shifted?

[Wolffpack]

Are you basing that on the fact that you can't currently pause and resume a recorded program? Only asking since I think it was mentioned that this is currently listed as a bug.
Or, do you think that there's a whole separate level of logic that they would have to build in just to do the dual buffer scenario and pauses?

There is one other apsect of this that I was just thinking about...not sure if it's been brought up yet as a possible "why it's not implemented" reason. Would the buffering logic interfere with the + features? If you buffer a game (or record), do the stats and scores features show live or time shifted?
If you are currently recording two live shows and are flipping between those shows via the PREV button you cannot pause one and go the other. On the R15 that is. I don't have a HR20.

+ features such as the applications in MIX channels or YES do not allow for recording at all. I don't know how those would impact dual live buffers. But from my stand point, if the DTV development staff has a firm understanding on how we use dual live buffers on the Tivo units they should be able to replicate those on the R15 and HR20.

[lpctv]

If you are currently recording two live shows and are flipping between those shows via the PREV button you cannot pause one and go the other. On the R15 that is. I don't have a HR20.
Wouldn't you consider the lack of pause and resume to be the same for this instance too? I mean, if it has been identified as a bug and the feature is supposed to be there, there is probably no difference between trying to view a whole previously recorded program and doing a pause and return vs. using the record 2 shows workaround for live buffers. In either case, you're relying on the same feature - or lack thereof - in which case, the wait for the fix for the bug...or, am I missing something?

+ features such as the applications in MIX channels or YES do not allow for recording at all. I don't know how those would impact dual live buffers. But from my stand point, if the DTV development staff has a firm understanding on how we use dual live buffers on the Tivo units they should be able to replicate those on the R15 and HR20.
Actually, since I don't have any receivers at this time that do any of that stuff, I'm not sure either. So, I guess what I was really after is to know if one records a ST game, and then uses any of the interactive buttons while watching it after the fact, what would happen? I would think that it's not like getting current time and such if you press the info button while watching a previously recorded show. Hopefully, I'm making some sort of sense here...and you see where I was going with it before.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the last point. Even said so previously. However, you're making an assumption that they would want to chase the horse even after they deliberately left the barn door open...because it seems evident (IMO) that they didn't do a whole lot of end user research beforehand.

[Que]

WOW 340 people voted! I had no idea that this poll would get this much attention. I wish they could sent out mailer to all D* subs just to see what they wanted. Thanks for voting!

65% -A must have!.......... That is just a small % that SEEN this poll.

Earl,

Have you heard anything else on this?

[Que]

I have seen some threads asking about dual buffers. So just a little bump.

[Earl Bonovich]

WOW 340 people voted! I had no idea that this poll would get this much attention. I wish they could sent out mailer to all D* subs just to see what they wanted. Thanks for voting!

65% -A must have!.......... That is just a small % that SEEN this poll.

Earl,

Have you heard anything else on this?

That latest is that they are trying to identify the best way to implement it.

[wilbur_the_goose]

If nothing else, yesterday's football games (along with the tennis final) showed how important dual buffers are.

Seeing how DirecTV has positioned themselves as the sports leader, they really need to consider the sports-centric consumer in their decision.

Thanks again for the info, Earl.

[gdawg]

I have had DIRECTIVO's for several years. I just purchased an HR20 and although I like some of the features, not having dual buffers is a big issue. Hopefully DTV will listen to their customers.

[KCWolfPck]

I'm sure this was a big issue with the R-15 user base as well.....still no dual buffers for the R-15, why should we expect the HR20 to be any different?

[Wally_Gator]

That latest is that they are trying to identify the best way to implement it.

So, can we inferr that this has made it onto some sort of a roadmap?
Or is this still 50/50?

[Earl Bonovich]

So, can we inferr that this has made it onto some sort of a roadmap?
Or is this still 50/50?

Maybe 51/49 now.. :)
Nothing has really changed since my last conversations...

They are more focused on correcting the current issues with the box, then adding major new features.

[Drunk Wex]

I signed up for the forum just to vote and post in this thread. My HR20 is coming Sept 28th, or sooner if they have an opening, so I really hope they add this feature very soon. I almost don't want to give up my HR10 because of this... The speed and image quality improvements better be worth it.

In the meantime I hope someone is able to find a work around so we'll have some sort of dual life buffer functionality.

[BrettStah]

Earl, I'm sure that they have smart people thinking about ways to implement it, but I'll post my suggestion here anyway:

First, I am assuming that the other tuner needs to be used for "other things" on occasion.

The Tivos currently pop up a message, asking (paraphrasing here), "Is it OK if the other tuner is changed to a different channel?" This is for scheduled recordings, assuming that bother tuners are available and you're watching one tuner "live".

So that's one way of handling it - ask the user if it's OK. If it's not OK, just reschedule.

Another way is to keep track of activity on a per-tuner basis, and figure out a threshold of inactivity to watch for. For example, if you don't switch to one of the tuners after X minutes, the DVR will assume that it's OK to switch to a different channel to download VOD stuff. Then it can switch back to the original channel once that's done. I would recommend at least 120 minutes.

[Que]

That latest is that they are trying to identify the best way to implement it.

Alright!! That sounds a lot better then before! So there going to do it, just need to find a way to implement it!

NICE!

[edit] Read Earl's 2nd post... So it about the same, right now.

[cbearnm]

PS What about protection, as RAID or the ability to back up to a network? No one wants to lose fifty treasured programs, and drives do fail. They all have MTBFs of about 3 to 4 years, and spread over millions of devices, that means one or more failures a day.

Stan

Stan

Boy, I hate to put myself out there and tempt the fates, but most drives are now rated in the area of 1,000,000 + hours MTBF, particularly from Seagate. That is approx 114 years. Even half that life will work for me.
At the million hour mark though, if they have 3,000,000 customers with DVRs, that can be 3 units failing per hour, more than likely. (Pulled that number out of the air for demonstration purposes.)
I appreciate that drives do die, but it's probably not a big concern for D*. They are probably more concerned about copyright issues.
Personally, I would love to see them allow the SATA port or even the USB port to be used for archiving content, but I would virtually guarantee that it would be in a proprietery format that is useless on a PC. Even so, they would probably not do so.
RAID is a great idea, particularly as drive prices fall, but then the next logical step is removable RAID. It does no good to have a drive mirrored (or striped) if you have a fire and both drives are in it. So it makes sense to make it removable, so you can store it in a firesafe. Then we're back to copyright stuff.
I think it is a great idea, I just don't see D* making it a priority, until at least MS or Dish or TiVo make it a 'feature' that D* needs to 'we can that too'.

[aqua nut]

I just put a call into the D* movers hotline because I'm moving. I was told there is an upgrade, to the new and improved HR20 so I accepted the deal. I decided to check out info on the new HR20 and the issue of NO dual live buffers is a big one! I found many sites with information about this. I for one use duel live buffer constantly and will not be without it after growing so attached. The new and improved HR20 will go into the kid’s room and I'll stick to the old HR10-250. Unless of course D* can work out an upgrade. :(

[DougC]

I agree with aqua nut. I've just had the HR20 installed Saturday and will be having it removed this coming Saturday. The HR20 is simply not useable between not having the dual buffer feture and no OTA HD receiving/recording. I use the dual buffer feature on my standard def TIVO almost anytime the TV is turned on! It sucks not having it so much, that they will either have to bring me an HR10-250 or I'll redeploy my std def tivo until both features are fixed in the HR20. It'll be for ever until Charleston, SC ever gets HD LIL considering we just got SD LIL 18 months ago!

Does anybody out there get the LA or NY HD LILs in markets where they aren't local yet? The CSR told me that its possible I could get NY HD LILs because my market doesn't have them yet, but it'll take 30 days for approval!

[DougC]

Just got off the phone with a fantastic engineer at the Customer Retention line (after talking with standard CSR, then installation group, then Level 2 Tech support).

He's going to send out a refurb HR10-250 for me to use until they straighten out the HR20 ATSC and Dual Buffer issue. I don't even have to return the HR20, I just have to remove the 'mirroring' from it until I'm ready to redploy it after they fix everything.

And for chits and giggles he threw in Super Fan package. I feel so much better about the whole experience. Another 8 years of D* in my future!

[zh.guitar]

HR20 is NOT good.

I received an HR20 even though I ordered an HR10-250. They (D*) said they were out of the HR10 so I got the NEW Improved HR20.

1. I have the 5 lnb dish but locals are not available in my area over satellite.
2. The OTA is disabled.

I have NFL ST. If there is a game that is block because it is on locally......I CAN"T WATCH IT. How much spent on NFL ST and HD DVR and I can't watch a local game in HD unless I bypass all the junk I paid for and go direct with an antenna?

3. No dual buffers...........game over...... I will buy an HR10-250 somewhere and stick with it.


I got the HR20 as part of the freebie offer so i will keep it and hang on for the updates rather than....... well what should I do with it.

Can I sell it or will they want it back?

[anubys]

why not keep it? all the "problems" you're complaining about will be remedied soon...the only thing that may not happen is the dual buffers, and I suspect that, too, will be made available in a future upgrade...

I say get the HR10-250 and keep the H20 for now...it's not costing you anything to keep it...

[zh.guitar]

Thanks for the advice. That's what I am going to do.

[judal98]

A little late to the party here, but am pretty shocked that D* would degrade their flagship product through the elimination of dual buffers...def going to hold out for now...the Dish 622 still offers this feature no?

[Wally_Gator]

HR20 is NOT good.

I received an HR20 even though I ordered an HR10-250. They (D*) said they were out of the HR10 so I got the NEW Improved HR20.

1. I have the 5 lnb dish but locals are not available in my area over satellite.
2. The OTA is disabled.

I have NFL ST. If there is a game that is block because it is on locally......I CAN"T WATCH IT. How much spent on NFL ST and HD DVR and I can't watch a local game in HD unless I bypass all the junk I paid for and go direct with an antenna?

3. No dual buffers...........game over...... I will buy an HR10-250 somewhere and stick with it.


I got the HR20 as part of the freebie offer so i will keep it and hang on for the updates rather than....... well what should I do with it.

Can I sell it or will they want it back?



I say keep it and Call Customer retention with a good attitude. Explain your situation and what the problems are. They should be able to give you credits for your troubles. Just remember they are dealing with a-holes all day long and someone with some patience and a good attitude is nice for them to hear. I have received many credits speaking this way..

[Que]

HR20 is NOT good.

I received an HR20 even though I ordered an HR10-250. They (D*) said they were out of the HR10 so I got the NEW Improved HR20.

1. I have the 5 lnb dish but locals are not available in my area over satellite.
2. The OTA is disabled.

I have NFL ST. If there is a game that is block because it is on locally......I CAN"T WATCH IT. How much spent on NFL ST and HD DVR and I can't watch a local game in HD unless I bypass all the junk I paid for and go direct with an antenna?

3. No dual buffers...........game over...... I will buy an HR10-250 somewhere and stick with it.


I got the HR20 as part of the freebie offer so i will keep it and hang on for the updates rather than....... well what should I do with it.

Can I sell it or will they want it back?

Did you call retention? (800-824-9081) They can send you a refurbish HR10. They know about all the bugs HR20 has and that OTA is disabled.

[Mike55Y]

What a disappointment! I currently have the Samsung SD DVR, and have been waiting with eager anticipation for the HR20 so that I could record local channels in HD. I use the dual buffers for virtually all my watching, not just sports, but news shows, dramas, etc. For example, now if I want to see the weather forecast on two different channels, I can just flip back and forth. With an HR20, I would have to record the entire news broadcast, and then fast forward throught the whole thing to find the weather. It's not the same. If you gave me the choice, I would rather have dual buffers than the ability to record two shows at the same time. Also, I think a 90 minute buffer is almost a disadvantage since it fills up more of the hard drive. Two 30 minute buffers is just right.

[JLove336]

tag

[BrettStah]

Hey, does anyone see any major problems with the following?

Have a menu option to enable the second buffer. Make it clear that by enabling the second buffer, the 90 minute single buffer will now be replaced with two 45 minute buffers (to avoid consuming more disk space), and make it clear that if the background buffer isn't "actively used", the DVR may automatically switch to do background "maintenance" tasks. I would suggest a 60-90 minute threshold to determine whether the buffer is considered inactive or not.

So that would make dual buffers:

1) Optional, and most folks not interested would probably never even know about the option

2) Hopefully an acceptable solution to the folks complaining about the lack of dual buffers (assuming the "remember paused location" bug is fixed, of course :))

3) Wouldn't take up more disk space than the single buffer currently does

4) Still allow for the background use of the second tuner that DirecTV apparently desires, since there's no realistic way for the vast, vast majority of users to keep both buffers active for an extended period of time - eventually you'll go to sleep, work, etc.

[Que]

Hey, does anyone see any major problems with the following?

Have a menu option to enable the second buffer. Make it clear that by enabling the second buffer, the 90 minute single buffer will now be replaced with two 45 minute buffers (to avoid consuming more disk space), and make it clear that if the background buffer isn't "actively used", the DVR may automatically switch to do background "maintenance" tasks. I would suggest a 60-90 minute threshold to determine whether the buffer is considered inactive or not.

So that would make dual buffers:

1) Optional, and most folks not interested would probably never even know about the option

2) Hopefully an acceptable solution to the folks complaining about the lack of dual buffers (assuming the "remember paused location" bug is fixed, of course :))

3) Wouldn't take up more disk space than the single buffer currently does

4) Still allow for the background use of the second tuner that DirecTV apparently desires, since there's no realistic way for the vast, vast majority of users to keep both buffers active for an extended period of time - eventually you'll go to sleep, work, etc.

Hey if that works. I'm fine with it! On the HR10 is only 30mins. Just need them to turn on OTA and I'm set. Oh as long as they are still planing on fixing it to save your pause point. Then sign me up!

[bigcb37]

Recent Tivo convert here. Directv gave no longer distributes HR10s so I got the HR20 without warning.

I can deal with the non-tivo interface. In fact some things I like better. But the MUST HAVE feature is the Dual Buffer. I registered on this site just to vote in the poll. Please update your product D*!!!

I would be happy if it just had that...well that and a decent 30 sec skip. Terrible on the HR20...

I am holding out hope...good potential with this box.

[jaywdetroit]

I had a GREAT rep at the retention line and he told me the software engineers are aware of the desire for dual buffers and that they have it on their "to do" list.

[Earl Bonovich]

I had a GREAT rep at the retention line and he told me the software engineers are aware of the desire for dual buffers and that they have it on their "to do" list.

Or that reps knows where to find a good forum board to get the latest and greatest information... :) ... Hello all you CSRs :hurah: :welcome_s

[jaywdetroit]

Or that reps knows where to find a good forum board to get the latest and greatest information... :) ... Hello all you CSRs :hurah: :welcome_s

There was no doubt he read the forums. He told me as much. He was by far the most knowledable CSR i've talked to in my 8 years with D*

[r00db0y]

I had to register to vote in this poll also - as an NFL ST subscriber the dual buffer is a must. I also use it during normal viewing, but this is a deal breaker for the NFL ST.

I currently have a HR10-250 (early adopter) and I am going to wait out the OTA and dual buffer issues before getting an updated system.

Just had to add my $0.02.

[talbain]

hopefully their "to do" list is nothing like my "to do" list lol. otherwise it may never get done, just like my having to rebrick my walkway...

[Que]

hopefully their "to do" list is nothing like my "to do" list lol. otherwise it may never get done, just like my having to rebrick my walkway...

I just hope that "to do" is real! Not just pushing us off..

[houskamp]

I want 16 live buffers then all the channels I watch would always be on :lol:

[pattcap]

I would like it if DTV would give us a choice. Do we want the convenience of having on demand ppv available or would we rather have dual live buffers. Seems like it would be an easy option/choice that could be added to the menus. The ones who really want the dual buffers will not be upset and be unhappy users, and for the rest, they will have their on demand content available... Just thinking logic here...

Excuse me, Why do we need D* to provide us with "On Demand PPV" on our HR20 DVRs?

Isn't the idea of having a DVR so you can watch what you want "On Demand"

People that bother to buy a DVR in the first place don't need D*s Help figuring out what to watch. They bought a DVR so they can watch what they want when they want period, the end.

This is about the stupidist reasoning I have seen for not having Live Dual Buffers.
(NO offense intended here to the origional poster as I know you are just trying to figure out why we don't have something all Direct-Tivo uses have come to expect)

If I want to watch something on Demand, then being a DVR user, I will plan in advance and have the PPV I want to watch recorded ahead of time, so I can use the freeking thing as per the origional concept of the DVR in the first place.

But, hey, Comcast has PPV "On Demand" so I guess D* has to have PPV "On Demand" so they don't lose an edge on the marketing side.

Let's face it, marketing is a lot more important than dual live buffers, (Possibly the greatest thing about the dual tunner DVRs in the first place) Because the only people interested in that are the ones that know about it.

If you use the down arrow to switch back and forth, DO NOT UPGRADE TO AN HR20.

Had I known this going in, (My fault for not coming to this thread before hand) I would not have bought the $$$$ 40" LCD TV, the $$$ HR20, and my DTV Bill would be less $$ than it is now.

OK, I admit it, I am a little upset about this one. I guess I still have another 25 days or so to send it all back.....
...Edit....Added after reading the rest of the thread, up to date
It seems like D* is getting the message, But I am not paying for NFLST-SF until I have the second Buffer.....Yo, National Football League...Did U hear that?

What to put some real pressure on D* to enable Live Dual Buffers, Mention this to the NFL.
We need to bring this to the attention of the NFL. >>I paid for NFL-ST, upgraded all my stuff to HD, and my awsome deal has turned to crap, NFL, tell D* to cut the price until I get my second Buffer.....<<

One thing is for certain, D* does not want to get a call from the NFL talking about PO'ed Sunday Ticket customers.

[Earl Bonovich]

Excuse me, Why do we need D* to provide us with "On Demand PPV" on our HR20 DVRs?


Just because you don't want the feature, doesn't mean others don't.
It all depends on the library of OnDemand....

As many channels as there are... you are still limited to the broadcast schedule of those shows. One of the "OnDemand" featuers that will be comming are replays and pre-plays of network programming...

So
1) If you missed to do a scheduling conflict, a mix up on your part, or technical reason... you can still get the show ~"now" and not rely on bittorrent or waiting for the rerun weeks or months later....
2) Then just mix in the library of shows... that might not even air on channels you receive.
3) Some networks are planning to even offer shows days earlier



People that bother to buy a DVR in the first place don't need D*s Help figuring out what to watch. They bought a DVR so they can watch what they want when they want period, the end.


Exactly correct... Watch what YOU want to watch, and when... you now remove one of the last restrictions.... YOU can choose some programming that even the current channels don't want to air.



If I want to watch something on Demand, then being a DVR user, I will plan in advance and have the PPV I want to watch recorded ahead of time, so I can use the freeking thing as per the origional concept of the DVR in the first place.


What if it isn't ever aired again? or ever aired in the first place...
Of if you don't want to spend $12 a month for a premium channel when just want one show/movie?


But, hey, Comcast has PPV "On Demand" so I guess D* has to have PPV "On Demand" so they don't lose an edge on the marketing side.

Let's face it, marketing is a lot more important than dual live buffers, (Possibly the greatest thing about the dual tunner DVRs in the first place) Because the only people interested in that are the ones that know about it.


I'm sorry out all the discussions I have ever had on this topic.... "Marketing" as a reason? come-on

As for Dual Buffers being the greates thing about dual tuners?
How about recording TWO things at once... without having TWO receivers to do it? I think that is the greatest thing about dual tuners...

If you did a pole amongst all (and by ALL I mean ALL... not just those that are on the forums), I would say that;
Most people use dual recording features of dual tuners, more then dual buffers. Heck... I live through my DVRs, and the only time I use dual buffers is when sports involved...

[peni32]

Damn:mad: ... I was ready to upgrade to the HR20 receiver, but I just use the dual buffer too much to do without it just yet...

Is it something that can be applied in the future, or is the system just not capable of doing that?

[Que]

I want 16 live buffers then all the channels I watch would always be on :lol:


You can do that now! :D ch102 and ch105. Hit the info button then audio tracks to change audio of the 8 channels. LOL

[noobie937]

Definatly miss that feature. Shoot, even UTV had dual buffers. :)

[puffnstuff]

Damn:mad: ... I was ready to upgrade to the HR20 receiver, but I just use the dual buffer too much to do without it just yet...

Is it something that can be applied in the future, or is the system just not capable of doing that?

Just got of the phone asked the same thing and was told no it will not ever be a feature because the hr 20 isn't capable of doing it . This isn't true is it?:(

[Earl Bonovich]

Just got of the phone asked the same thing and was told no it will not ever be a feature because the hr 20 isn't capable of doing it . This isn't true is it?:(

It is NOT true.

The HR20 is capable of doing it... as, there is only marginal difference between recording two programs at once, and recording two programs at once in buffers.

As of my last update on the issue, they are still identifying the best way to get the dual buffers in the system.

[walters]

The HR20 is capable of doing it... as, there is only marginal difference between recording two programs at once, and recording two programs at once in buffers.

Whether the difference is marginal or not really depends on the implementation. It is somewhat more difficult to maintain a 90 minute buffer indefinitely versus making a 90 minute recording.

Having said that, I'm sure the hardware itself is capable. We'll see about the developers. ;)

[bakerfall]

I have to say that after my first football Sunday using the HR20, I didn't really think this would bother me as much as it did. I agree with Earl that dual buffers isn't that big a deal when watching TV shows, but for the NFL, it is a major disappointment.

[talbain]

I have to say that after my first football Sunday using the HR20, I didn't really think this would bother me as much as it did. I agree with Earl that dual buffers isn't that big a deal when watching TV shows, but for the NFL, it is a major disappointment.

agreed. i'll tell you though, the interactive stuff with the live on screen stat tracking goes a LONG way in making up for it...

[wilbur_the_goose]

D* would seem to be contradicting itself here. D* is the Sports Leader, but they are removing one key feature that helps us enjoy those sports.

I really hope they are able to get a working solution.

[pattcap]

Just because you don't want the feature, doesn't mean others don't.
It all depends on the library of OnDemand....


Earl, I hear where you are coming from.
It is my understanding that generally speaking, the cumulative sales of PPV, while consistent, have continually fallen well short of expectations. To the point where it is a great "marketing" thing to have, but as a revenue generator it falls well short relative to the "Feature Benifit" touted. In short, lots of people use it, but it is really more like a few people use it a lot while lots of people don't sue it much or at all.

I see VOD in a similar way. A few people will use it a lot while many will use it seldome and or if at all.
BTW, I watched "The Class" four or five days early on my old DirecTIVO so I guess I have to confess to being a spoon fed VOD user.
As for how large the VOD library is, limited by disk space, and how much people are willing to tollerate, but I doubt it can be very big, a few hours at most.
Ding!!! It just dawned on me how attractive VOD program is and or could be to advertisers....


If you did a pole amongst all (and by ALL I mean ALL... not just those that are on the forums), I would say that;
Most people use dual recording features of dual tuners, more then dual buffers. Heck... I live through my DVRs, and the only time I use dual buffers is when sports involved...

I agree completely.

As I explained to my wife on Sunday as we watched comercials during a football game (something she has not experienced in like 5 years)
Tivo / DVR uses fall into two generalized groups, ones like her, and ones like me.

(Regular users) The wife has a few programs that she has set to record, like her soap, and a few prime time shows. When she has time, she watches the recorded program, a Standard time shift.
She, usually us together, will watch a prime time show as it is recording. Start watching 20 min late and catch up about when it ends.
and that is about agressive as she pushes the technology.

(Advanced and agressive users) After watcing all recorded content that suits the mood and time constraints,
With my old equipment, I was a classic dual buffer switcher. In short, I watched 2 programs at the same time. I have been watching TV like this for the past five years, and I think it is fairly accurate that most users that have any time in this catagory have come to expect and throughly enjoy this aspect.
While as a percetage of overall DVR users this is a significantly smaller group, which expands significantly on Sunday afternoon (read NFL-ST-SF) This is also the group that is most likely to be early addopters of the "New technology" and willing to spend the $$$ on it.

From the demeanor of your posts on the dual live buffers, it seems D* has seen and or is comming around to the shortcomings of thier origional concept for the HR20 and in time will remidy the situation. I hope they make it a priority.

I am confident there are others that feel the same way as I do when I say, Had I known what I know now regarding this issue, I would waited and or considered other options regarding my significant $$$$ home entertainment upgrade.

BTW, Thanks for all the hard work you do keeping everyone here up to date.

[Clint Lamor]

Excuse me, Why do we need D* to provide us with "On Demand PPV" on our HR20 DVRs?

Isn't the idea of having a DVR so you can watch what you want "On Demand"

People that bother to buy a DVR in the first place don't need D*s Help figuring out what to watch. They bought a DVR so they can watch what they want when they want period, the end.

This is about the stupidist reasoning I have seen for not having Live Dual Buffers.
(NO offense intended here to the origional poster as I know you are just trying to figure out why we don't have something all Direct-Tivo uses have come to expect)

If I want to watch something on Demand, then being a DVR user, I will plan in advance and have the PPV I want to watch recorded ahead of time, so I can use the freeking thing as per the origional concept of the DVR in the first place.

But, hey, Comcast has PPV "On Demand" so I guess D* has to have PPV "On Demand" so they don't lose an edge on the marketing side.

Let's face it, marketing is a lot more important than dual live buffers, (Possibly the greatest thing about the dual tunner DVRs in the first place) Because the only people interested in that are the ones that know about it.

If you use the down arrow to switch back and forth, DO NOT UPGRADE TO AN HR20.

Had I known this going in, (My fault for not coming to this thread before hand) I would not have bought the $$$$ 40" LCD TV, the $$$ HR20, and my DTV Bill would be less $$ than it is now.

OK, I admit it, I am a little upset about this one. I guess I still have another 25 days or so to send it all back.....
...Edit....Added after reading the rest of the thread, up to date
It seems like D* is getting the message, But I am not paying for NFLST-SF until I have the second Buffer.....Yo, National Football League...Did U hear that?

What to put some real pressure on D* to enable Live Dual Buffers, Mention this to the NFL.
We need to bring this to the attention of the NFL. >>I paid for NFL-ST, upgraded all my stuff to HD, and my awsome deal has turned to crap, NFL, tell D* to cut the price until I get my second Buffer.....<<

One thing is for certain, D* does not want to get a call from the NFL talking about PO'ed Sunday Ticket customers.

So why exactly woud the NFL care if you get ST or not? DTV has already paid them their money so the only one it would effect is DTV. They will get the features that need to be added as they can get to them. I always find it quite amusing when people threaten I won't buy this service or that service if you don't do what I want. I get what you're trying to do but these type of features will be added if enough people ask for them, not if people act like kids and say i'm taking my ball and going home.

[Earl Bonovich]

As for how large the VOD library is, limited by disk space, and how much people are willing to tollerate, but I doubt it can be very big, a few hours at most.
Ding!!! It just dawned on me how attractive VOD program is and or could be to advertisers....


Actually... The "library" will depend on how big of a disk space farm that can be built on the server side of things.... and that is virtually endless given today's technology (there are systems in the PETA-Byte range already).

And if they can get a distribution model that uses broadband... aka similar to what Cable-Co, and IPTV solutions use... then OnDemand would be on "par" as other OnDemand offerings.

[wilbur_the_goose]

I just don't see the appeal of on demand. My parents just got a digital cable with a large amount of on-demand stuff. My dad is a retired IT person, so he's not a luddite.

They tried it the first day, got bored, and haven't used it since.

To me, on-demand and DVR are one and the same thing.

[Earl Bonovich]

I just don't see the appeal of on demand. My parents just got a digital cable with a large amount of on-demand stuff. My dad is a retired IT person, so he's not a luddite.

They tried it the first day, got bored, and haven't used it since.

To me, on-demand and DVR are one and the same thing.

DVR is still reliant on the networks broadcasting the program.
OnDemand (depending on how it is implement, and the size of the library), is like having a "Blockbuster Video"... but it VERY dependent on the available library.

[PoitNarf]

DVR is still reliant on the networks broadcasting the program.
OnDemand (depending on how it is implement, and the size of the library), is like having a "Blockbuster Video"... but it VERY dependent on the available library.

I just hope when D* implements this, they have a decent selection. I was at a friends house a few weeks ago who had Comcast. We were going through the OnDemand movies being offered, and of the 200+ being offered there was only about 4 movies that I actually recognized. Most were from the 80s for some reason and I had no desire to watch a single one of those.

[lenwink]

DVR is still reliant on the networks broadcasting the program.
OnDemand (depending on how it is implement, and the size of the library), is like having a "Blockbuster Video"... but it VERY dependent on the available library.

I want ON DEMAND, if only for Howard Stern and the WWE 24/7.......

[RMSko]

agreed. i'll tell you though, the interactive stuff with the live on screen stat tracking goes a LONG way in making up for it...
Can you give more detail on this? I watched the Jets game yesterday on NY MPEG-4 and I didn't see any interactive options. It was probably there and I missed it, but if you could explain it a bit more, that'd be great.

[wilbur_the_goose]

Channel 701/702/703, I think...

[bonscott87]

Can you give more detail on this? I watched the Jets game yesterday on NY MPEG-4 and I didn't see any interactive options. It was probably there and I missed it, but if you could explain it a bit more, that'd be great.

You weren't watching it on a Sunday Ticket channel. Interactive features are available when watching Sunday Ticket games in the 700's.

[tiger2005]

I could not agree more. Dual Buffers are a necessity for me before I will upgrade to the HR20. If they try getting me to switch to the HR20 before they have implemented this, I will exercise my right as a consumer and leave D*. I understand this is a new box and they are working out the kinks, but they have had this problem with the R15 for awhile and have done nothing to address it. That is a failure on D*'s part in my opinion.

[Chuck W]

I could not agree more. Dual Buffers are a necessity for me before I will upgrade to the HR20. If they try getting me to switch to the HR20 before they have implemented this, I will exercise my right as a consumer and leave D*. I understand this is a new box and they are working out the kinks, but they have had this problem with the R15 for awhile and have done nothing to address it. That is a failure on D*'s part in my opinion.

That's what scares me, in that, the R15 has been around for a while now and it still doesn't have dual buffers. Based on that, I'd be hard pressed to expect the R20 to get them anytime soon, as it's either they really don't have a good idea how to implement it or they just don't "want" to do it.

As for swapping from the HR10, until the dual buffers is added, it's not gonna happen for me, as this is an ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL function for me and my wife. Also, when the time comes when they force me to either upgrade or lose programming that I currently receive, then the swap had better be free, because I have no intention of doling out more money, just to maintain what I have(I shouldn't have to play games with using my length of service(D* since 1999), to get it for free either, it should be a given, if I will lose programming). If it isn't free, then se la vie to Directv.

[Earl Bonovich]

Comparing the R15 to HR20 is fair to a certain degree.

However... the R15 and the HR20 are actually 90% different systems.
(They share similar code segements such as Interactive)... but the engine/core of the unit are completely different.

While using the R15 as a benchmark for certain thinks is fair,and obvious.... The HR20 is it's own product/project.

If you wait long enough to move from the HR10 to the HR20 (As in to the point they are about to turn of MPEG-2 HD completely), then yes... you will probable get the swap for free... but that could be 12-18 months from now if not longer...

And all new national HD networks are expected to be in MPEG-4....

[Chuck W]

If you wait long enough to move from the HR10 to the HR20 (As in to the point they are about to turn of MPEG-2 HD completely), then yes... you will probable get the swap for free... but that could be 12-18 months from now if not longer...

And all new national HD networks are expected to be in MPEG-4....

My fear is HD locals. Currently I get NYC HD locals, but I am in the Hartford DMA. If they do try to turn them off on me and force me to the MPEG-4 Hartford HD locals(of which there is only a measly 2 of the 4 available), then this is where I would expect the HR20 to to be free, since I'd be losing programming otherwise(until they get all 4 up, I'd be losing programming, no matter what :( ).

However, I'm not sure I'd lose the NYC HD locals, since they are considered SV locals for my area anyway.

[Earl Bonovich]

You can probably expect NYC MPEG-2 Locals to be shutdown by early/mid 2007

[pattcap]

So why exactly woud the NFL care if you get ST or not? DTV has already paid them their money so the only one it would effect is DTV. They will get the features that need to be added as they can get to them. I always find it quite amusing when people threaten I won't buy this service or that service if you don't do what I want. I get what you're trying to do but these type of features will be added if enough people ask for them, not if people act like kids and say i'm taking my ball and going home.

I don't know how the deal is structured, but for some reason I would think the NFL gets a slice of each sunday ticket sold, but I don't know.

IMHO,
Bottom line, The NFL cares a lot about consumer satisfaction, and does not want to do business with a company that might lessen the desire of their product.
Think of it this way, Sunday Ticket people are huge NFL fans. If they get hacked at D* over the buffer issue, they cancle or drop their sunday ticket, and or get frustrated and lose interest.... The NFL does not like the idea of a super fan losing interest

[pattcap]

Actually... The "library" will depend on how big of a disk space farm that can be built on the server side of things.... and that is virtually endless given today's technology (there are systems in the PETA-Byte range already).

And if they can get a distribution model that uses broadband... aka similar to what Cable-Co, and IPTV solutions use... then OnDemand would be on "par" as other OnDemand offerings.

OK, now you have lost me.
If D* is going to do VOD, then to be "on demand" doesn't it need to be On my reciever, taking up MY disk space.

This was one of the argument for not having the Dual Bufferes, so a tuner could/would be free for VOD content delivery at D* will. At least that is where it started, I thought.

[Earl Bonovich]

I don't know how the deal is structured, but for some reason I would think the NFL gets a slice of each sunday ticket sold, but I don't know.

IMHO,
Bottom line, The NFL cares a lot about consumer satisfaction, and does not want to do business with a company that might lessen the desire of their product.
Think of it this way, Sunday Ticket people are huge NFL fans. If they get hacked at D* over the buffer issue, they cancle or drop their sunday ticket, and or get frustrated and lose interest.... The NFL does not like the idea of a super fan losing interest

But how many Sunday Ticket Subscribers are there?
How many of them are DVR Users?
How many of them are DVR Users that have an issue with the lack of dual buffers?

Does that offset the nearly $500 million dollars (I think that is correct) that DirecTV "wrote a check" to the NFL for exclusive rights to Sunday ticket?

I don't think you will have more "fans" turning down Sunday because of the price of the package, not because the lack of dual live buffers.... (Note; As much as a football fan I am... I have never subscribed to Sunday Ticket... as I could never justify the cost.... I get the Bears local... and that is the only game I am "worried" about... The Internet and the tickers for the rest)

[Earl Bonovich]

OK, now you have lost me.
If D* is going to do VOD, then to be "on demand" doesn't it need to be On my reciever, taking up MY disk space.

This was one of the argument for not having the Dual Bufferes, so a tuner could/would be free for VOD content delivery at D* will. At least that is where it started, I thought.

Most "OnDemand" systems work via the user makeing a request on their end.
Then the "service" pushes that content to them at the time of the request, or "relatively" at a later time

Some services like Comcast, can sometimes push it "real-time" so you can watch it live to a various degrees.. Most of the other services, such as Akimbo, and IPTV based systems... push it and store it on a hard drive, and then you can watch it (or start watching once enough is already on the hard drive)

Oh and the VOD that is already on your hard disk... is in an area of the disk resevered for DirecTV usage.
Aka, it is not part of your 100hrs (R15) or 30/50/250hrs (HR20) area

[pattcap]

Most "OnDemand" systems work via the user makeing a request on their end.
Then the "service" pushes that content to them at the time of the request, or "relatively" at a later time

Some services like Comcast, can sometimes push it "real-time" so you can watch it live to a various degrees.. Most of the other services, such as Akimbo, and IPTV based systems... push it and store it on a hard drive, and then you can watch it (or start watching once enough is already on the hard drive)

Oh and the VOD that is already on your hard disk... is in an area of the disk resevered for DirecTV usage.
Aka, it is not part of your 100hrs (R15) or 30/50/250hrs (HR20) area

So that is what happened to the extra space LOL, JK, This is something that I did not know, and it is nice to know.
So, if D* ever gets the "Showcases" going, which is essentially an area for them to put VOD stuff, it will use up their space as opposed to my space.

[Earl Bonovich]

So that is what happened to the extra space LOL, JK, This is something that I did not know, and it is nice to know.
So, if D* ever gets the "Showcases" going, which is essentially an area for them to put VOD stuff, it will use up their space as opposed to my space.

Yes...

[pattcap]

But how many Sunday Ticket Subscribers are there?
How many of them are DVR Users?
How many of them are DVR Users that have an issue with the lack of dual buffers?

Does that offset the nearly $500 million dollars (I think that is correct) that DirecTV "wrote a check" to the NFL for exclusive rights to Sunday ticket?

I don't think you will have more "fans" turning down Sunday because of the price of the package, not because the lack of dual live buffers.... (Note; As much as a football fan I am... I have never subscribed to Sunday Ticket... as I could never justify the cost.... I get the Bears local... and that is the only game I am "worried" about... The Internet and the tickers for the rest)

I don't know how the deal works. $5MM for exclusive rights to the NFL, that sounds like a fantastic deal. OK, so now we know how much D* paid to have exclusivity.

There is no way the NFL said at that point, thanks see U next year. The NFL is getting a % of the total Sunday ticket revenue. (Of course I don't know this for fact, but I if I were the NFL I would insist on a percentage of the revenue. Those billionare owners didn't get rich by skipping out on revenue streams.)

Finally, the point I was making is:
For the Agressive Tivo / DVR users, the ones that have and will continue to make heavy use of their dual live bufferers, and Especially the sports fans, many of which are likely Sunday Ticket Subscribers and Potential Super Fan subs

It is very important they know that DirecTV's Brand New flag ship HD DVR, the HR20-700, does not have dual live buffers. Thus, should they chose to upgrade to the HR20, they run a risk of being somewhat disapointed that their "upgrade" while providing better PQ, might leave them somewhat disapointed regarding their overall viewing experience with the "upgraded" equipment relative to what they were used to on their older equipment.

That said: It is cumforting to know there is an increasing chance that D* is considering they may have made a questionable decision regarding this issue and that it is possible D* will enable this highly coveted feature on their new Flagship Product in the (hopefully) not too distant future through a software upgrade.

Thanks for listening
Pattcap

[Earl Bonovich]

Okay... Sorry...

It wasn't $500 Million..
It was 3.5 BILLION
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA479045.html

[Wolffpack]

Okay... Sorry...

It wasn't $500 Million..
It was 3.5 BILLION
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA479045.html
Correct, for the entire deal. 2006-2010. Or as the article states, $700 mil per year.

[talbain]

Can you give more detail on this? I watched the Jets game yesterday on NY MPEG-4 and I didn't see any interactive options. It was probably there and I missed it, but if you could explain it a bit more, that'd be great.


yeah it's awesome. you can go to ch 795 to setup up to 9 players you want to keep track of. here you can also set whether you want the alerts frequently or a little less often. when one of the players on your list does anything, a bar pops up on whatever channel you're watching to let you know what happened.

aside from this, the mix and/or red zone channels (701/702/703) let you pull up all stat information for any game live and in real time. you press the green button (i think, but anyway the guide pops up after a few seconds) and this gives you the option to look at stats. you can navigate to any team or player's live stats, offense or defense. all the while the game you've highlighted plays in a window in the background.

i found myself using this feature even more than switching between the buffers on the tivo...

i always record the jets games, so during a break in the action i'd simply pause this then flip to the interactive channels for a look at what's going on.

[Que]

yeah it's awesome. you can go to ch 795 to setup up to 9 players you want to keep track of. here you can also set whether you want the alerts frequently or a little less often. when one of the players on your list does anything, a bar pops up on whatever channel you're watching to let you know what happened.

aside from this, the mix and/or red zone channels (701/702/703) let you pull up all stat information for any game live and in real time. you press the green button (i think, but anyway the guide pops up after a few seconds) and this gives you the option to look at stats. you can navigate to any team or player's live stats, offense or defense. all the while the game you've highlighted plays in a window in the background.

i found myself using this feature even more than switching between the buffers on the tivo...

i always record the jets games, so during a break in the action i'd simply pause this then flip to the interactive channels for a look at what's going on.

Damn that sounds nice! Now when they get dual buffers to work, that will be so sweet!

[edit] And turn on OTA

[Que]

Currently, technically a dual buffer does not exist.
However, for all practical purposes something better exists.

Try this once! It works great!!!

1.) Tune to channel A (live buffer of 90 min)

2.) Use quick guide to record desired channel B (unlimited buffer)

3.) Start playback of channel B recording

4.) Press prev. button - will autopause and take you INSTANTLY back to live tv channel A

5.) Press prev. button again and you will go back to recording INSTANTLY (channel B will auto play from where you had left off)

You can toggle the prev. button to repeat the tuner switch endlessly

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=65736

Until we get true live dual buffers.

[hdtvfan0001]

Why does anyone need DUAL BUFFERS anyway?
Just record both programs and watch them later.. um... no brainer... BONUS: now you can watch them ONE at a time and don't have to switch back and forth interupting the flow of the episode you are seeing.
Agreed. Doesn't the R in DVR stand for recorder? :D

To me, dual buffer viewing is kinda like watching 2 strippers at the same time - you can only see so much for so long, before losing interest in the other show or else you forget what the other show even looks like...and hopefully you don't miss anything! :lol:

Yeah, I guess for the platinum level couch potato who wants to push green, yellow, red, and blue buttons all night, it may be nice to have trick buttons and the like, but certainly, these are neither "critical" nor "must have" items. :nono2:

Not to worry...at the rate that D* has delivered firmware updates, my guess is that these HR20's will be able to turn on just with an owner's mind-meld thoughts and no hands before you know it. :eek2:

[bigviking]

I'd much rather have 2 30-minute live buffers than 1 90-minute...if you have NFL Sunday Ticket, dual buffers is the only way to go...

No real reason that dual buffers should impact the buffer time. This unit doesn't have enough RAM to have the buffers stored anywhere other than disk, to wether it's 20, 30, or 90 minutes, 1 or two buffers the number of minutes you can go back is really just an arbitrary number chosen by DirecTV.

IT's only when the hard drive nears full that it becomes an issue at all.

[matto]

IT's only when the hard drive nears full that it becomes an issue at all.

Maybe they could spare some of the dedicated disk space that the stupid VOD, downloaded with its dedicated tuner gets.

What a stupid, desperate, mee-too feature.

"Look, we can do VOD just like the cable companies! All we need to do is stuff random crap on your DVR and hope it is the 'video' that you happen to 'demand'! We could have let you record three shows you wanted at once, or let you record two shows and watch another live, but instead, we give you bogus VOD! We hope you wanted 'Pirates of the Carribean 3', because thats what we shoved onto your DVR!"

[wilbur_the_goose]

But the only differentiation that D* makes over Dish, Cable, and FIOS is its sports programming. If they don't support the sports subscriber and his need for dual buffers, there's not a lot of reason to stay with D*, is there?

[Que]

Maybe they could spare some of the dedicated disk space that the stupid VOD, downloaded with its dedicated tuner gets.

What a stupid, desperate, mee-too feature.

"Look, we can do VOD just like the cable companies! All we need to do is stuff random crap on your DVR and hope it is the 'video' that you happen to 'demand'! We could have let you record three shows you wanted at once, or let you record two shows and watch another live, but instead, we give you bogus VOD! We hope you wanted 'Pirates of the Carribean 3', because thats what we shoved onto your DVR!"

I hate spam!!!

I did watch "Check out the new Chrysler Aspen" LOL I really wish there was a way to opt out.

[BicentennialHeel]

Since this has seemingly turned into a Sunday Ticket thread, I have a question. There is the option to use a hot key (I think "Red") that pulls up all the scores of the games and you can still see the channel you are watching. Some of these scores are different colors (green, red and blue) and all have an arrow in the background behind one of the teams that is different lengths. I suspect that the arrow is behind the team with possession of the ball, but have not been able to correlate the length of the arrows. (I thought a field possession, or length of possession, but don't think it is either.)

Clarification is welcome. Or if there is a resource that explains these things that I have missed, please point me there.

Thanks.

[bonscott87]

Since this has seemingly turned into a Sunday Ticket thread, I have a question. There is the option to use a hot key (I think "Red") that pulls up all the scores of the games and you can still see the channel you are watching. Some of these scores are different colors (green, red and blue) and all have an arrow in the background behind one of the teams that is different lengths. I suspect that the arrow is behind the team with possession of the ball, but have not been able to correlate the length of the arrows. (I thought a field possession, or length of possession, but don't think it is either.)

Clarification is welcome. Or if there is a resource that explains these things that I have missed, please point me there.

Thanks.

Arrow gets closer to the right side the closer to the endzone the team is. The game goes red background and arrows when one of the teams is in the redzone. Green I can't remember, perhpas a timeout or halftime.

Same color coding and arrows are used on the Mix channels 701 and 702. This has the be the greatest feature for me since I can quickly go to the mix channel and then select a game that's in the redzone or a game where one of my fantasy players is on offense.

[tiger2005]

Dual buffers are one of the best features on a DVR and D* has totally ignored it in their R15 and HR20 models. What is up with that? How you can create your own DVR and not include, at a minimum, all the non-patented features of the most popular DVR on the market? Imitation is the sincerest form of flatterly. If you want to add your own features after that, great! But that should be done only after you have delivered a product your customers will accept, not a product they are worried will affect the way they watch TV therefore they would rather leave for a competitor that offers the very functionality you used to offer.

[sandiegojoe]

-link to tips on pseudo dual buffers-

Until we get true live dual buffers.


I like it. It's close enough to dual buffers for the time being. Hopefully, we'll have an easier solution in the near future.

[Aria]

I'd much rather have 2 30-minute live buffers than 1 90-minute...if you have NFL Sunday Ticket, dual buffers is the only way to go...
If possible now or in the future, two 60 minute live buffers would be great.

[cbearnm]

A couple of thoughts;

Sunday Ticket is really not marketed to football fans in their own teams market (like in Earl's case) it is promoted for people like me, a Steelers fan in New Mexico. This year is a bit of an exception, so far (and including this weekend) all their games have been primetime or the national game. BUt in previous years, it was theonly way I would see more than2 or 3 games a year. I find that when the Steelers are in prime time or off, I do jump around the other games, mostly because of fantasy football. Dual buffers is virtually vital for me. I like to check out other games during commercial breaks of the Steelers. I will pause the Steeler game, check the other games, then return and zap through the commercial. There are times the other games are compelling enough that I would have missed some Steelers action without the buffers. I know I 'could' record the game, but jumping back and forth with the HR20 is cumbersome.

Length of buffer is inconsequential (as BigViking said), the program is not held in RAM but merely streamed to/from the hard drive. If you have 2 1-hour buffers, your drive theoretically has 2 hours less capacity, that is all. They could be 30 minutes or 5 hours and have no cost to D* (other than advertised capacity). Their length is totally arbitrary.

[Que]

Did anyone keep the box with the HR20? Did it have OTA on it?

[hdtvfan0001]

Did anyone keep the box with the HR20? Did it have OTA on it?
Mine does, and no warning to the contrary. Its also in the manual (with no sticker or contrary statement).

It'll be there pretty soon....