How To Diplex OTA with the AT9 dish & MPEG-4

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Before you say it can't be done, yes it can and doing so is easy. Done properly, the signals will not conflict. This has been tested and does work.

You simply need to relocate the B-Band Convertor (BBC) module to a convenient location (i.e., attic perhaps) and then diplex your OTA signal into the downlead after the BBC module. See? I told you it was easy.

The instructions that came with your MPEG-4 receiver instruct you to connect your BBC module to the receiver. However, it does not need to be right at the receiver and in fact can be located anywhere in the coax downlead between the AT9 dish and the receiver, or if an external multiswitch is used, anywhere between the output of the multiswitch and the receiver.

The only important thing to remember is the BBC module must be ahead of your OTA diplexer.

To keep it straight, here's the correct order of things:
1) Option 1 no external multiswitch, In the attic, connect the coax coming from the DISH to the INPUT of the BBC module. Connect the OUTPUT of the BBC module to the SAT connector of the Diplexer. Connect the TV/SAT connector of the diplexer to the coax cable that goes downstairs to the receiver. Connect your OTA signal to the TV connector of the diplexer.

2) Option 2, WITH an external multiswitch Do not tamper with the cables going to the INPUTS of the multiswitch. Use a short coax jumper to connect the INPUT of the BBC module to one of the OUTPUTS of the multiswitch. Connect the OUTPUT of the BBC module to the SAT connector of the Diplexer. Connect the TV/SAT connector of the diplexer to the coax cable that goes to the receiver. Connect your OTA signal to the TV connector of the diplexer.

Downstairs at the receiver, connect the coax from the attic to the TV/SAT connector of a second diplexer. Connect the SAT connector of the diplexer to the SAT input connector of your receiver. Connect the TV connector of the diplexer to the ANTENNA connector of your receiver.

Yes, you can use a splitter with your OTA input lead to have enough outputs available to diplex the signal in to the coax downleads. However, you cannot connect your OTA signal to any of the INPUTS of your multiswitch because a Ka/Ku multiswitch does not provide an OTA input connector.

edit: do not put the BBC module outside. It is not weatherproof.
edit: this concept only works if your BBC module is separate (external). If it's built-in, like on the HR10-250, you might not be able to use this idea but keep reading - the more we pursue this, the more we're learning

[Tseren]

This is great to hear. Does the BBC only come with the H20? Is there a solution if I have an HR10 with no extra cables for OTA and an AT9 dish?

[Cap'n Preshoot]

This is great to hear. Does the BBC only come with the H20? Is there a solution if I have an HR10 with no extra cables for OTA and an AT9 dish?


The solution offered is intended for those who have the new AT9 dish along with MPEG-4 capable receivers with external BBC modules.

I'll admit I'm not familiar with the HR10-250. However, from reading I see that it is MPEG-4 capable but it does not appear to use an external BBC module, (built-in apparently) so unfortunately this idea won't work for the HR10-250 (or any other MPEG-4 capable receivers that do not have the external BBC module.

actually it might work. This is becoming a work in progress

[Cap'n Preshoot]

The way it works it very simple;

The Ka LNB at the AT9 Dish downconverts the 20 Ghz Ka band satellite frequencies to the 250~750 Mhz "B band" so they can be sent down the coax to the receiver.

The B-Band convertor module (BBC) up-converts the 250~750Mhz signals to 1650~2150 Mhz before entering the receiver.

However, in theory this up-conversion can take place anywhere and does not necessarily need to take place right at the receiver. It can just as easily occur someplace else, like for instance in the attic or someplace where all your cabling comes together in a centralized location.

Although this idea of moving the BBC module away from the back of the receiver to the attic or someplace else works very well for allowing us to Diplex our OTA signals into the same coax cable, it does not come without some possible penalty.

The possible penalty would be likely to appear in situations where you have a fairly long coax run as measured from the back of the receiver to the point at which you wind up inserting (or point where you would like to insert) the BBC module and do your OTA signal diplexing. The issue is the attenuation or signal loss at the BBC output frequencies (1650~2150 Mhz).

When we talk about using RG6 coaxial cable for residential satellite distribution, the generally accepted standard is 7 db of signal loss per 100 feet of cable at 1000 Mhz. (1000 Mhz chosen to represent the approx range of frequencies that the cable will ordinarily be carrying. The range is actually 950~1450). However, at 2150 Mhz this little matter of signal loss is all of a sudden closer to 10 dB per 100 feet. That's a 3 db difference which represents twice as much loss. (it's a logrithmic slide rule math function, for RF signal levels db=10 Log P1/P2).

The result is the higher frequency signals from the BBC module get attenuated twice as much as the lower frequency signals, so long coax runs between the receiver and the BBC module need to be avoided.

If you want to try this, my own recommendation would be to keep the coax length between the receiver and BBC module as short as possible and not to exceed 50 feet.

Use of an inline broadband amplifier module that's rated for 2150 Mhz would boost these signals, but unless it is a special slope or tilt-adjusting amplifier you would still have a 3db difference between the uppermost and lowermost signals at the receiver, just that they would (or should) both be stronger.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

I'd like to hear from someone who has an HR10-250 (or other MPEG-4 HD DVR) with the built-in B Band convertor and who also might have a BBC module lying around to test with (perhaps borrow it from your H20 if you have one of those too.)

I'd like to find out:

1) will the built-in B-band convertor in the DVR pass 1650~2150 Mhz signals which have already been converted externally by an external BBC?

2) will the control signals pass through the receiver and work to also control an external BBC?

The way to find out the answers would be to attach a BBC to the sat input of your receiver/DVR and see if that input can still receive the Ka band (MPEG-4) signals. If it does, then we might still be able to use an upstream BBC to let us Diplex OTA into the same coax. That would sure be nice.

Though not listed on their web site, I'm sure if this was possible that Solid Signal would be only too happy to sell them separately.

[bpayne]

Your explanation of how BBCs work was about 95% correct- there's only one thing you left out...

There a 2 different orbital slots for KA and 2 different polarities located at 2 different bands. Currently, 103 and 99 are occupying the 1650-2150 mHz spectrum- commonly referred to as the C-band (it's not literally C-band aka FTA, it's just a shortcut way of saying "the 1650-2150 mHz frequency range carrying half the KA downlink"). :)

When the last two of the five KA satellites launch- one at 99 and the other at 103, their downlink will be downconverted to the 250-750mHz range, or the B-band, by the LNB. The BBC receives control signals from the box which inturn tells the LNB which polarity of the B-band it wan't to receive for that frequency range only, the LNB or switch sends it down and then the BBC upconverts that 250-750 mHz range to 950-1450 because the box, internally, doesn't recognize 250-750mHz.


I've tested what you propose and in theory, it should work. The only problem is is that there's no way to know if it will work correctly until DirecTV starts sending down the polarities which will allow us to test it properly. Currently, if someone does not have a BBC connect to the sat input, they will not see any problems or missing channels.

[D-Bamatech]

{Currently, if someone does not have a BBC connect to the sat input, they will not see any problems or missing channels.[/QUOTE]
-------
Thank you.. can I get a witness! :rolleyes:

Now tell me how to allign the At-9 and properly balance the signal to maxium results for multiple sat feeds that arent even there yet. he he..

There's "some " people here that tell me that i must allign a AT-9 dish to "look" at something that is "for the future" (lol). Not on paper, Not in a lab, But actually standing on Site. Im good but i just cant seem to be able to do that. No meters and no tv screens produce any result no matter what i do (??) (chuckle), so im wondering just how can i do this. Lmao "i can SEE 4 but thats it"
( Big D* and feb/March'o6 At-9 mandate revisited= "non functioning DMA boo boo":lol: )

[Cap'n Preshoot]

I've tested what you propose and in theory, it should work. The only problem is is that there's no way to know if it will work correctly until DirecTV starts sending down the polarities which will allow us to test it properly. Currently, if someone does not have a BBC connect to the sat input, they will not see any problems or missing channels.


Thanks. The important thing is at least someone else agrees with me that this should work.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

-------
Thank you.. can I get a witness! :rolleyes:

Now tell me how to allign the At-9 and properly balance the signal to maxium results for multiple sat feeds that arent even there yet. he he..

There's "some " people here that tell me that i must allign a AT-9 dish to "look" at something that is "for the future" (lol). Not on paper, Not in a lab, But actually standing on Site. Im good but i just cant seem to be able to do that. No meters and no tv screens produce any result no matter what i do (??) (chuckle), so im wondering just how can i do this. Lmao "i can SEE 4 but thats it"
( Big D* and feb/March'o6 At-9 mandate revisited= "non functioning DMA boo boo":lol: )


Bama, ol' buddy, I understand you have a whole lot of pent-up frustrations about the AT9, the HSPs, and maybe some other things, but this thread is about OTA diplexing, not about aligning a dish. Lets everyone please try to confine our remarks in this thread to the topic of Diplexing. Thank you!!!!

[D-Bamatech]

Bama, ol' buddy, I understand you have a whole lot of pent-up frustrations about the AT9, the HSPs, and maybe some other things, but this thread is about OTA diplexing, not about aligning a dish. Lets everyone please try to confine our remarks in this thread to the topic of Diplexing. Thank you!!!!

I didnt mention an Install company this time (HSP). I saw it(comment) quite relivent due to the statement concerning the module and nothing "coming down" that even effects it. Like that "other guy" telling me "for future use" .. ya know.. he he.

Ill leave "yall" alone and just go back to helping these folks then. (chuckle)

this place IS hilarious @ times though.. ya gotta admit. I laugh all day in here.:lol:

[boba]

Bamatech I agree we laugh all day but most of us are laughing at you. Not saying you are right or wrong but you act like a spoiled little child which can be very humourous at times.:lol: :lol: :lol:

[cbeckner80]

Bamatech I agree we laugh all day but most of us are laughing at you. Not saying you are right or wrong but you act like a spoiled little child which can be very humourous at times.:lol: :lol: :lol:

Amen; :hurah:

[D-Bamatech]

Bamatech I agree we laugh all day but most of us are laughing at you. Not saying you are right or wrong but you act like a spoiled little child which can be very humourous at times.:lol: :lol: :lol:

thank you.. :lol:

im taking my toys and going home then...

[greywolf]

The HR10-250 is an MPEG2 only DVR. The HR20-700 is the Ka band MPEG4 capable box and its 2 BBCs are external.

[Budget_HT]

The HR10-250 is an MPEG2 only DVR. The HR20-700 is the Ka band MPEG4 capable box and its B-Band converter is internal.
I don't have an HR20-700 yet, but I have read posts from Earl that say it both ways.

First he said no external B-Band converter. Later he said there were supposed to be two external B-Band converters and they were missing from his HR20-700 box when he got it.

I had the impression that the B-Band converters might be temporary or not needed for some new coax solution (hopefully single coax) from DirecTV, but I have no direct information for that assumption.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

I don't have an HR20-700 yet, but I have read posts from Earl that say it both ways.

First he said no external B-Band converter. Later he said there were supposed to be two external B-Band converters and they were missing from his HR20-700 box when he got it.

I had the impression that the B-Band converters might be temporary or not needed for some new coax solution (hopefully single coax) from DirecTV, but I have no direct information for that assumption.


The only way to do two receivers (DVR + watch another channel) over one common coax with satellite would be with signal stacking, which can get expensive.

Offhand I'd say the likelihood of the BBC becoming built-in or otherwise incorporated into the box is probably pretty good.

[Clint Lamor]

The only way to do two receivers (DVR + watch another channel) over one common coax with satellite would be with signal stacking, which can get expensive.

Offhand I'd say the likelihood of the BBC becoming built-in or otherwise incorporated into the box is probably pretty good.

DirecTV has a technology they are going to use called Frequency Translation Module (FTM) this will send all needed signals down a single line to your receiver and your receiver will then use it's internal hardware to sort everything out. If you do a google of it you can find some posts on it. I "THINK" the chip to do this at least in the receiver is made by broadcom. At least I found them talking about it in one of my searches.

[janzy]

Used Cap'n Preshoot's solution today and it s working great!

[cadjoe]

1) I assume that an ATSC signal can be used with the diplexer for this scenario?

2) I assume that the Ka/Ku Multiswitch can be used with the HR10-250, and same scenario would work as in 2nd JPG?

3) Is it confirmed that the HR20-700 will have a dual internal BBC, and as above will it pass if already done?

4) Will the newer 2nd Gen 5 LNB downconvert?

Picture says a 1000 words, so did I get it right ?

Thanks,

CadJoe

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Used Cap'n Preshoot's solution today and it s working great!

Can I expect my usual royalty commission check in the mail? ;)

Glad we were able to help out. Are you using the H20?

CPS

[Cap'n Preshoot]

1) I assume that an ATSC signal can be used with the diplexer for this scenario?

2) I assume that the Ka/Ku Multiswitch can be used with the HR10-250, and same scenario would work as in 2nd JPG?

3) Is it confirmed that the HR20-700 will have a dual internal BBC, and as above will it pass if already done?

4) Will the newer 2nd Gen 5 LNB downconvert?

Picture says a 1000 words, so did I get it right ?

Thanks,

CadJoe

1) any frequency below 750 Mhz "should" work.
2) In the 2nd JPG (nice dwgs by the way) I think your OTA signals could or will conflict with any Ka signals which might be coincidentally present. Stick a BBC inline at the output of that multiswitch and you would (conceivably) solve the conflict, at least in theory.
3) the only thing confirmed so far is death and taxes. Right now we don't know the answer to this.
4) I'm guessing they will, no reason not to think they wouldn't manage the bandwidth spectrum the same way.

I don't think anyone has yet proven that the idea will work with those receivers with built-in B-band convertors.

[bpayne]

1. Any frequency below the lower cutoff would work. Depending on the diplexer, it would be in the 850 mHz range.

2.

3. The HR20 comes with two BBCs in the box. The BBCs are a workaround until FTM comes out. I've said this so many times I wish we could make a sticky or something. :)

4. No downconverting at the LNB- all the magic will happen at the FTM itself.

[cadjoe]

Stick a BBC inline at the output of that multiswitch and you would (conceivably) solve the conflict, at least in theory.



Then, can we eliminate the need of MULTIPLE BBC's by putting the BBC in FRONT of the MultiSwitch ????

Thanks,

CadJoe

[Cap'n Preshoot]

1. Any frequency below the lower cutoff would work. Depending on the diplexer, it would be in the 850 mHz range.

2.

3. The HR20 comes with two BBCs in the box. The BBCs are a workaround until FTM comes out. I've said this so many times I wish we could make a sticky or something. :)

4. No downconverting at the LNB- all the magic will happen at the FTM itself.

1) Which of course means you could just as easily diplex the entire CATV baseband into that slot if you were so inclined. Dunno why anybody would sub to both D* and cable, but I guess if you've got money to burn, why not?

I could just hear the conversation now. "Hey dude check it out, I got my cable box and D* all running off 1 coax with a diplexer in it." ;)

[Cap'n Preshoot]

13. The HR20 comes with two BBCs in the box. The BBCs are a workaround until FTM comes out. I've said this so many times I wish we could make a sticky or something. :)


Having not (yet) read anything about the FTM technology, appearances are that we've only got so much bandwidth in the coax before we pass the point of diminishing returns with ever higher frequencies and their inherent propagation problems through coax. (never mind those who fail to understand why you're not supposed to install RG6 with a staple gun) - that was a rhetorical comment, no reply necessary ;)

Try as I may I have yet to fiind a cable manufacturer's official published spec on RG6 above 1000 Mhz. I've seen some Eagle/Aspen stuff "labelled" as being certified for 3 Ghz, to which my only comment is, yeah... right. You just know every spool of that stuff has been swept. Uh-uh..., yeah buddy.

Coming time to consider some fiber transceivers and single mode fiber all the way to the dish.

[cbeckner80]

1) Dunno why anybody would sub to both D* and cable, but I guess if you've got money to burn, why not?
)

Because even though my signal strength shows in the 90's, I still loose my signal during even light rain, I like to know where the tornadoes are in my area during worse storms. Haveing had one take some trees down and remove my OTA antenna, and put my neighbors porch in my front yard years ago sort of makes you nervouse.

Carl:eek2:

[carl6]

1) Which of course means you could just as easily diplex the entire CATV baseband into that slot if you were so inclined. Dunno why anybody would sub to both D* and cable, but I guess if you've got money to burn, why not?


Because I get basic cable with my high speed internet whether I want it or not, so I combine it with modulated security camera feeds, and modulated feeds from all my dvr's, and send the result to all my tv's in addition to the composite or s-video connections from D* equipment to the local tv. I do get several local cable channels that are not available from D* this way.

Carl

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Because I get basic cable with my high speed internet whether I want it or not, so I combine it with modulated security camera feeds, and modulated feeds from all my dvr's, and send the result to all my tv's in addition to the composite or s-video connections from D* equipment to the local tv. I do get several local cable channels that are not available from D* this way.

Carl

Makes sense now. Forgot about the Cable modem subs, some get basic included, some don't.

As for watching the weather, here in Houston if you have an SD Digital receiver or a D* HD receiver you can connect an OTA antenna and get full time 24/7 LOCAL doppler radar on both the local NBC and CBS stations on one of their digital subchannels. To me, living in hurricane country, that alone is worth the trouble to find some way to get your OTA signals into that receiver.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Because even though my signal strength shows in the 90's, I still loose my signal during even light rain, I like to know where the tornadoes are in my area during worse storms. Haveing had one take some trees down and remove my OTA antenna, and put my neighbors porch in my front yard years ago sort of makes you nervouse.

Carl:eek2:

Rain fade? What's that?
Kidding aside, if you haven't already, you might want to take a cruise through this thread:
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=61238

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Used Cap'n Preshoot's solution today and it s working great!

Yes it does.
I finally got my new Mits 65732 the other day to replace my dead (under warranty) set and can attest that putting the BBC module in-line in the attic and diplexing my OTA signals in behind it (as described early in this thread) works perfectly.

Of course you have to diplex into the individual cables rather than into the MultiSwitch, requiring some addt'l hardware, but the point is it works.

[Claus]

This method is mention a few month ago in maybe this or another forum. Only drawback is you need separate diplexer for each line that has TV input. Still a very good idea and will make lots of people happy to get OTA. No problem with 2150 frequency from BBC down all of cable, AT9 is sending this down cable in most areas now. When AT9 topic comes up again we will try to convince bamtech how easy is to align if follow instructions!:)
Claus

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Only drawback is you need separate diplexer for each line that has TV input. Still a very good idea and will make lots of people happy to get OTA.

True enough. I was thrilled to find out it worked and how simple it was to do it. Diplexers are cheap.

When AT9 topic comes up again we will try to convince bamtech how easy is to align if follow instructions!:)
Claus
Promise me you won't fan those embers. :) :)

[Claus]

Ok ok, enough is said. I try to be good.:rolleyes:
Claus

[jaywdetroit]

I've tried reading through this thread, and admit it's a bit confuzzing to me. I have an HR20 install date along with the new 5 LNB dish. My current setup is NO outdoor antenna and a DUAL LNB dish. I did my own installation and put the Multiswitch in the wall in my Family Room. (This was easiest). So I have two RG6 cables running from dish through my Garage attic and into my Family room into a Multiswitch which then runs lines out to the living room outlet and into the basement. I put my new HDTV in my Family room and would love to get OTR channels.

Question: Assuming I buy a rooftop antenna: With my configuration, can I use a diplexer with the new dish and avoid running another RG6 line from the roof?

Should I?

How do I do it? Thanks!

[carl6]

jayw,

You will face a couple of problems going from your current setup to the new one.

First, the 5-LNB dish requires FOUR coax lines from the dish to the multiswitch. You can't make it work with just two. So as an absolute minimum you are going to have to run two additional lines.

Because of the potential for frequency overlap with MPEG4 signals and OTA signals, and given that you will need additional coax runs anyway, I would recommend you pull FOUR NEW lines, which will leave the old two lines available for OTA. If the potential OTA antenna location is sufficiently different from the dish location, then as a minimum pull a new line for the OTA antenna in addition to the two new lines you will need for the dish.

Carl

[jaywdetroit]

Okay - thanks for the info.

I guess I'm not suprised. The CSR at the retention line assured me that the multiswitch was built into the dish and that I would not have to run new lines. Oh well - they are covering it all. So I guess I'll just have him pull the new wires.

[cal87]

I have hooked up my HR20 as per this thread. OTA diplexed into one of the lines AFTER the BBC. Seems to work fine. MPEG4 locals with no problems. No loss of signal strength versus the non-diplexed line.

I have read this thread and am a little bit confused. As things are working fine with the MPEG4 locals, is this setup good to go? When the new satellites are up, are they going to be broadcasting at a frequency that might cause a problem that is not there now?

[carl6]

When the new satellites are up, are they going to be broadcasting at a frequency that might cause a problem that is not there now?

I believe that is what is expected to cause the problem. We'll know for sure sometime next year. For now, you appear to be good to go.

Carl

[cal87]

I believe that is what is expected to cause the problem. We'll know for sure sometime next year. For now, you appear to be good to go.

Carl

Does anyone know for sure if there will or will not be a problem?

[bobnielsen]

Does anyone know for sure if there will or will not be a problem?

Since they apparently haven't used that combination of frequencies yet, no. It depends somewhat on the specs of the BBC, which I don't think have been published. Does anyone know how the BBC is switched on (presumably by the receiver)?

[Cap'n Preshoot]

I have hooked up my HR20 as per this thread. OTA diplexed into one of the lines AFTER the BBC. Seems to work fine. MPEG4 locals with no problems. No loss of signal strength versus the non-diplexed line.

I have read this thread and am a little bit confused. As things are working fine with the MPEG4 locals, is this setup good to go? When the new satellites are up, are they going to be broadcasting at a frequency that might cause a problem that is not there now?

NO!

Diplexed the way you are, inserting your OTA behind the BBC module (per instructions in this thread) your OTA will not interfere w/any future satellite deployment.

[jtalberts]

First off, I am a huge newb to satelite and this is my first post here. I have been searching for some answers, and I am quite confused. I live in a condo and the installer that came out was telling me that I must run 2 lines to my HD box. One for sat and one for OTA. I rescheduled my install because he was telling me that I wouldn't be able to use my existing lines for I have a couple of questions.

1. Is a multiswitch always installed? All I need are 4 tv's hooked up and 1 with OTA.

2. Just want to be clear on this part. This should solve the problem for when the new DirecTV satellites are launched?

[bpayne]

Since they apparently haven't used that combination of frequencies yet, no. It depends somewhat on the specs of the BBC, which I don't think have been published. Does anyone know how the BBC is switched on (presumably by the receiver)?



The BBC is switched on using a control tone similar to the 22khz tone needed to select 119. It's hard to say how long the cable run can be before the BBC will not recognize the tone and upconvert the B-band to the L-band like it's supposed to.

It's kind of one of those things that we won't know how it's going to work until those polarities are turned on.







On a completely different note- when the FTM system is installed we will be clear to use diplexors without resorting to 'BBC placement tricks'. The B-band will be intercepted by the FTM hub and uptranslated "on the fly".

Without getting too technical, FTM won't suffer from the same drawbacks as traditional stacked systems either- long cable runs won't cause alot of issues and will work just fine with traditional RG-6 coax (no need for swept tested 3+ gig like E*) for the simple reason that there is no stacking involved.

[texasbrit]

NO!

Diplexed the way you are, inserting your OTA behind the BBC module (per instructions in this thread) your OTA will not interfere w/any future satellite deployment.

It should work in theory but no-one knows for sure. Until DirecTV 10/11 are launched and operational there are no signals for the b-band converter to convert. Certainly many of us are hoping it will work...!

[Blitz68]

I read or heard something some where saying not to do this. It will/could degrade the sat signal or interfere.

Anyone?

[bobnielsen]

The BBC is switched on using a control tone similar to the 22khz tone needed to select 119. It's hard to say how long the cable run can be before the BBC will not recognize the tone and upconvert the B-band to the L-band like it's supposed to.

It's kind of one of those things that we won't know how it's going to work until those polarities are turned on.







On a completely different note- when the FTM system is installed we will be clear to use diplexors without resorting to 'BBC placement tricks'. The B-band will be intercepted by the FTM hub and uptranslated "on the fly".

Without getting too technical, FTM won't suffer from the same drawbacks as traditional stacked systems either- long cable runs won't cause alot of issues and will work just fine with traditional RG-6 coax (no need for swept tested 3+ gig like E*) for the simple reason that there is no stacking involved.

If you have technical info, please pass it on (I haven't been able to find any). Does it convert both Ka outputs to 950-1450 with sufficient isolation of the other sats?

[bpayne]

I read or heard something some where saying not to do this. It will/could degrade the sat signal or interfere.

Anyone?



That's pretty much the point of thread- avoiding the interference in the first place by locating the top diplexor upstream of the BBC should solve this problem in the first place.

As I have pointed out previously- as well as texasbrit, this should get around the problem but no one will know for sure until the new polarities light up.

[harsh]

1. Is a multiswitch always installed?Only when you have more than four satellite tuners (DVRs have two tuners each)All I need are 4 tv's hooked up and 1 with OTA.If you have no DVRs, you won't need a multiswitch.2. Just want to be clear on this part. This should solve the problem for when the new DirecTV satellites are launched?Probably, but if you decide that you need a DVR at any point, you'll need a multiswitch and another cable to the location where the DVR goes.

If it were me, I'd pop for any DVR now and force them to install the extra cable and the multi-switch.

Have you checked with your condo management/association about putting up a dish?

[Mike500]

Anyone know how you would use this QUAD dipexor?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMESO%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150051194765&rd=1&rd=1

[bpayne]

If you have technical info, please pass it on (I haven't been able to find any). Does it convert both Ka outputs to 950-1450 with sufficient isolation of the other sats?

Unfortunately, I don't have anything in writing yet. I've had some good discussions with an engineer who has been working on the first iteration of the FTM technology (commercial & MDU first, residential 2nd).

Let's just say that isolation isn't an issue when you come up with a way to fit signals from 5 satellites and 6 polarities (the B-band is treated like 2 seperate polarities in the system) in about 256 mHz worth of space.

[bobnielsen]

Hmm, that's food for thought. It sounds like a digital solution may be involved. I can think of some approaches, but simplicity is not part of the equation (a fair amount of additional electronics would be required at the dish end). I haven't kept up with this kind of stuff since I retired, so maybe there is more out there than I realized.

Cost will probably be an issue. I won't start ripping out cables yet.

Googling around a bit, I came across this http://www.freshpatents.com/System-architecture-for-control-and-signal-distribution-on-coaxial-cable-dt20061005ptan20060225100.php?type=description. Unfortunately it doesn't have the illustrations, but it does give a few clues.

[Milominderbinder2]

What success are you having now that we have OTA?

- Craig

[bpayne]

What success are you having now that we have OTA?

- Craig


Ask that question again after DirecTV11 launches, then we'll know. ;)

[Cap'n Preshoot]

I realize this thread has been dormant for quite a while. Has anyone done any more work with DIPLEXING their OTA into their AT9/AU9s dishes?

[veryoldschool]

At this time you can diplex, but within a few months when the new SATs go up & active, you won't as the Ka lo feeds will conflict with OTA. Most have gone to another coax feed to solve this "future" problem. Coax is cheap. This fall you can upgrade to the SWM module & add your OTA in that way, but it isn't out now.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

At this time you can diplex, but within a few months when the new SATs go up & active, you won't as the Ka lo feeds will conflict with OTA. Most have gone to another coax feed to solve this "future" problem. Coax is cheap. This fall you can upgrade to the SWM module & add your OTA in that way, but it isn't out now.

No they won't. Not if you read the start of this thread and see how we're doing it. As long as you have a B Band convertor module and diplex after the BBC there should be no frequency conflict.

My question was whether anyone had done any more with this. Originally (last fall) there was a fair amount of interest.

[veryoldschool]

No they won't. Not if you read the start of this thread and see how we're doing it. As long as you have a B Band convertor module and diplex after the BBC there should be no frequency conflict.

My question was whether anyone had done any more with this. Originally (last fall) there was a fair amount of interest.
The BBCs need to be too close to the receiver [for them to work] for this "option" to be effective.

[sptrout]

No they won't. Not if you read the start of this thread and see how we're doing it. As long as you have a B Band convertor module and diplex after the BBC there should be no frequency conflict.

My question was whether anyone had done any more with this. Originally (last fall) there was a fair amount of interest.

Yes, I have my OTA antenna and one of my DTV lines diplexed as described in this thread. My BBC is in the attic about 12 feet above my TV (maybe 15' of total cable distance?). This setup has worked fine, but I hope it still works with the new SATs. I would have preferred a second DTV line, but I have a fire break in my wall and the DirecTV installer did not have the equipment to drill though it (6' or so down from the attic).

I am going to keep what I have and if it works later great; if not then I will have to switch to the new FTM system.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

The BBCs need to be too close to the receiver [for them to work] for this "option" to be effective.

Mine is in the attic and approx. 35 cable feet from the receiver. Seems to work fine. MPEG4 locals are there so it must be working.

[veryoldschool]

Mine is in the attic and approx. 35 cable feet from the receiver. Seems to work fine. MPEG4 locals are there so it must be working.
Since your MPEG-4 is coming in on Ka Hi, you don't yet know how much loss you'll have when D* starts using Ka Lo.

[Cap'n Preshoot]

Since your MPEG-4 is coming in on Ka Hi, you don't yet know how much loss you'll have when D* starts using Ka Lo.
Help me understand. Isn't transmission line attenuation directly proportional to the frequency? Ergo if it's working with Ka high, wouldn't it be a logical expectation for it to work equally well if not better @ Ka-lo?

If we keep listening to the naysayers they will have us all installing nitrogen-pressurized heliax cable for the downlead. Judas Priest, it's just TV. :eek2:

[veryoldschool]

Help me understand. Isn't transmission line attenuation directly proportional to the frequency? Ergo if it's working with Ka high, wouldn't it be a logical expectation for it to work equally well if not better @ Ka-lo?

If we keep listening to the naysayers they will have us all installing nitrogen-pressurized heliax cable for the downlead. Judas Priest, it's just TV. :eek2:
Coming out of the BBC, the frequencies will be around 2 GHz. If D* wanted to send these frequencies through the coax that far, they would have put the BBC in the dish. Since they didn't. I think it points to the fact that some cable runs will be too long for good signal levels to get to the receiver [and why the BBC is designed to be mounted at the receiver].
There are three frequency "blocks", currently we aren't using the 1650-2150 MHz that will come out of the BBC.

[Michael D'Angelo]

Coming out of the BBC, the frequencies will be around 2 GHz. If D* wanted to send these frequencies through the coax that far, they would have put the BBC in the dish. Since they didn't. I think it points to the fact that some cable runs will be too long for good signal levels to get to the receiver [and why the BBC is designed to be mounted at the receiver].

I do have a question about that. Not saying you are wrong but with the SWM you don't use the BBC because the switch takes care of it for you. D* wants the SWM less then 40' from the dish and you can run up to 100' from the SWM to the receiver.

[veryoldschool]

I do have a question about that. Not saying you are wrong but with the SWM you don't use the BBC because the switch takes care of it for you. D* wants the SWM less then 40' from the dish and you can run up to 100' from the SWM to the receiver.
And the SWM now controls what frequencies are being used, so all of the conversion is done in the SWM. The problem comes without the SWM.

Edit: or to put it another way..the SWM is the device that wasn't put in the dish to have all of the conversion & selection done in the dish, so the IF coming out of the dish to the receiver wouldn't have large cables losses..

[Cap'n Preshoot]

And the SWM now controls what frequencies are being used, so all of the conversion is done in the SWM. The problem comes without the SWM.

Edit: or to put it another way..the SWM is the device that wasn't put in the dish to have all of the conversion & selection done in the dish, so the IF coming out of the dish to the receiver wouldn't have large cables losses..
Well it would seem they're finally getting wise to the fact that not everyone has the luxury of being able to place their dish within 100 cable feet of the receiver. Personally I always thought 100' was borderline excessive for the L band (I.F.) frequencies and RG6, but as we've seen these forums are chock-freakin' full of dime store experts who (often vehemently) profess you can go 200' and more.

Cap'n Preshoot
Former FCC 1st P1-17-11478
Comfortably retired

[frozenpenguin]

The lack of any available SWM solution is the only thing that's been holding be back from getting the HR20. (Drilling & more cable is not an option) Luckily, I just found this thread and think I'm going to jump in now with the HR20 and then get the SWM, if needed, whenever it comes out.

A couple questions though. Right now I have 2 coax lines coming in and I'm diplexing on both. One is diplexed for OTA and the other is diplxed for Comcast cable internet. I've run this setup for years with zero problems. Will the soution described in this tread work for the cable modem diplex as well? Also, let's say for some reason this doesn't work for me, can I just switch back and use the same diplex setup I've been using for OTA & Cable Internet? Will the HR-20 still function? Is the only thing I would loose be the HD Locals or anything else? Thanks for any help.

[Michael D'Angelo]

The lack of any available SWM solution is the only thing that's been holding be back from getting the HR20. (Drilling & more cable is not an option) Luckily, I just found this thread and think I'm going to jump in now with the HR20 and then get the SWM, if needed, whenever it comes out.

A couple questions though. Right now I have 2 coax lines coming in and I'm diplexing on both. One is diplexed for OTA and the other is diplxed for Comcast cable internet. I've run this setup for years with zero problems. Will the soution described in this tread work for the cable modem diplex as well? Also, let's say for some reason this doesn't work for me, can I just switch back and use the same diplex setup I've been using for OTA & Cable Internet? Will the HR-20 still function? Is the only thing I would loose be the HD Locals or anything else? Thanks for any help.

I don't know about the internet but I do have one of my HR20's hooked up to a line that is diplexed with comcast cable on the same line. No problems as of right now but will probably have problems when the new HD channels are available.

[veryoldschool]

I don't know about the internet but I do have one of my HR20's hooked up to a line that is diplexed with comcast cable on the same line. No problems as of right now but will probably have problems when the new HD channels are available.
Will "+1" & add that SWM "should" make it still work with the new channels from the new SATs. FWIW

[frozenpenguin]

I don't know about the internet but I do have one of my HR20's hooked up to a line that is diplexed with comcast cable on the same line. No problems as of right now but will probably have problems when the new HD channels are available.

By "problems" do you mean that the HD channels won't work or that my internet will be broken? I can live without a few HD channels until SWM comes out, but I work from home and can't live without internet.

[veryoldschool]

By "problems" do you mean that the HD channels won't work or that my internet will be broken? I can live without a few HD channels until SWM comes out, but I work from home and can't live without internet.
OTA & cable modems use the same frequencies as the up coming SATs will, so they can't go on the same line [and work].

[JustRob]

OTA & cable modems use the same frequencies as the up coming SATs will, so they can't go on the same line [and work].

I believe cable modems (CM) use a span of 320kHz-3.2MHz band in the 5-42MHz span for upstream and any 6 MHz channel between 300-864MHz for downstream (of course the cable provider would make sure that the analog, digital, and CM frequencies don't overlap). This is from going to Wikipedia, search for cable modem, then go to DOCSIS, download RF specs for DOCSIS 2.0 and see 4.2.1 (sorry can't post URL due to 5-post min newbie).

I've used a diplexer for sat (950-2250MHz) on one port, and 5-860MHz for the CM, using one cable line.

CORRECTION: Clearly you could only do sat and CM if you have the new SWM/FTM multiswitch. My cable modem (DOCSIS 2.0) is actually using 609MHz DS and 33MHz US so it wouldn't work unless I had a SWM MultiSw. Without a SWM MS, if you can configure your network so that you can successfully use the old diplexers (and thus not the frequency band 250-750MHz), you could use your CM on the same wire (i.e., between the BBC output and the STB). You probably can't do CM, sat, and OTA on the same coax line wire though, unless you got some kind of fancy triplexer (they are becoming available for MoCA applications - search for Soontai - they might have something applicable).

[veryoldschool]

I thought cable modems use 5-42MHz upstream and 300-864MHz for downstream (of course the cable provider would make sure that the analog, digital, and cable modem frequencies don't overlap). This is from going to Wikipedia, search for cablemodem, then go to DOCSIS, download RF specs for DOCSIS 2.0 and see 4.2.1 (sorry can't post URL due to 5-post min newbie).

I've used a diplexer for satellite (950-2250MHz) on one port, and 5-860MHz for the cablemodem, using one cable line.

CORRECTION: this is only for the use of B-band low converters that would use 250-750MHz. Mine is actually using 609MHz DS and 33MHz US so it wouldn't work. Another reason to like the new SWM/FTM devices. Surely, if you can configure your network so that you can successfully use the old diplexers, you could use your cable modem on the same wire (i.e., between the BBC and the STB).
:welcome_s to the forum.
My cable modem download is 99 MHz & upload is 20 MHz.
SWM will work with it but the non SWM BBC may not as it is supposed to be mounted close to the receiver [reducing the usable length of diplexed coax. Now if the Cable company will filter out all but the ISP feeds then you can work some tricks, but if they don't then you will have more signal than just you ISP feed to block and yet try to pass all of the frequency blocks from the dish.

[Kansas Zephyr]

My question is, how hardy are the BBCs?

If I try this solution, I'm forced to put the BBCs in the "cable box" on the outside of the home, since this is the entry point for my existing single coax runs.

It's a weather-resistant box, definitely not weather-proof.

The runs from the BBCs to the HR20s would be <20' to two locations, but more like 50' to the third.

[Crypter]

I don't get it.

I have 2 HR20's with OTA Ant for HD Locals through a Diplexer.

Currently I HAVE both BBC's attached to each receiver directly (ie. After the DIPLEXER has split the OTA and SAT signals).

So far I get the searching for Sateelite Screen on both tuners on both receivers without a problem. As far as I know that means they are working properly (using the BBC test channel 499).

I did nothing special for this to work so what is with this thread?

[JeffBowser]

I'm doing it (diplexing with bbc) successfully, and further more, I am doing it on a 50foot run of 33 year old rg58, a total of 160 feet from the dish. Now that being said, I suspect it won't work after Spetember.

[Kansas Zephyr]

I don't get it.

I have 2 HR20's with OTA Ant for HD Locals through a Diplexer.

Currently I HAVE both BBC's attached to each receiver directly (ie. After the DIPLEXER has split the OTA and SAT signals).

So far I get the searching for Sateelite Screen on both tuners on both receivers without a problem. As far as I know that means they are working properly (using the BBC test channel 499).

I did nothing special for this to work so what is with this thread?

The issue isn't today.

It's "tomorrow" when D10 and D11 (the satellites, not the receivers) go online. Then there will be a "conflict" between the OTA signals and the new B-band signals.

You will lose your OTA diplexing when that happens, with your current setup, from what I've gleaned here and from other sources.

(asking the forum) Am I right?

[veryoldschool]

I don't get it.

I have 2 HR20's with OTA Ant for HD Locals through a Diplexer.

Currently I HAVE both BBC's attached to each receiver directly (ie. After the DIPLEXER has split the OTA and SAT signals).

So far I get the searching for Sateelite Screen on both tuners on both receivers without a problem. As far as I know that means they are working properly (using the BBC test channel 499).

I did nothing special for this to work so what is with this thread?
Quite simple:
There currently are no signals coming down the coax in the 250-750 MHz band. [no conflict].
The "whole issue" is when there will be signals coming from the Ka-lo band.

[veryoldschool]

I'm doing it (diplexing with bbc) successfully, and further more, I am doing it on a 50foot run of 33 year old rg58, a total of 160 feet from the dish. Now that being said, I suspect it won't work after Spetember.
More reasons to move to the SWM option when available.

[veryoldschool]

The issue isn't today.

It's "tomorrow" when D10 and D11 (the satellites, not the receivers) go online. Then there will be a "conflict" between the OTA signals and the new B-band signals.

You will lose your OTA diplexing when that happens, with your current setup, from what I've gleaned here and from other sources.

(asking the forum) Am I right?
You were posting at the same time as myself.
Yes, you are correct.

[JeffBowser]

I suspect the SWM may even have issues with the ancient cable. Even I don't want to use that old cable, but I have had 3 cable installers look at the job and decline. Concrete house, plaster and lathe interior walls, and a low, hurricane reinforced roof makes for a nasty job of replacing cables. The last set I replaced I had to wait until I had half the house remodeled at the point where the ceiling drywall was removed. That sure made it easy :lol:

[veryoldschool]

I suspect the SWM may even have issues with the ancient cable. Even I don't want to use that old cable, but I have had 3 cable installers look at the job and decline. Concrete house, plaster and lathe interior walls, and a low, hurricane reinforced roof makes for a nasty job of replacing cables. The last set I replaced I had to wait until I had half the house remodeled at the point where the ceiling drywall was removed. That sure made it easy :lol:
The input of the SWM needs to be RG6 along with the SWM to PI. The rest of the coax can be "old crappy cable" as the SWM is made for them [by design] as this is the market it's made for.
[more reasons for using SWM]

[JeffBowser]

Sweet, that's perfect.

The input of the SWM needs to be RG6 along with the SWM to PI. The rest of the coax can be "old crappy cable" as the SWM is made for them [by design] as this is the market it's made for.
[more reasons for using SWM]

[loudo]

This may work, but you need to keep one thing in mind. Anytime you add anything like a diplexer, into your lines, you loose a little bit of signal with each one you add. In many cases you will not even notice it, but the signal is still weakened.

I used to have a few marginal OTA locals, when my system had diplexers on it. I removed the diplexers and ran separate lines for the D* system and my OTA antenna. I no longer have any problems with those marginal channels, that were cutting in and out at times. I receive them all the time now.

[JeffBowser]

I had a similar issue. I added a pre-amp at the antenna, then a distibution amp in the attic. The output from the distrib amp feeds the OTA-Satellite diplexers in my case, as well as a couple rooms where I have OTA only.


This may work, but you need to keep one thing in mind. Anytime you add anything like a diplexer, into your lines, you loose a little bit of signal with each one you add. In many cases you will not even notice it, but the signal is still weakened.

I used to have a few marginal OTA locals, when my system had diplexers on it. I removed the diplexers and ran separate lines for the D* system and my OTA antenna. I no longer have any problems with those marginal channels, that were cutting in and out at times. I receive them all the time now.

[loudo]

I had a similar issue. I added a pre-amp at the antenna, then a distibution amp in the attic. The output from the distrib amp feeds the OTA-Satellite diplexers in my case, as well as a couple rooms where I have OTA only.
My antenna is in the attic, and I had a distribution amp was on it, with the diplexers. But running the separate lines cured the low signal strength on the problem channels. Removing the diplexers and running the lines in the attic and down the walls was a task, but worth it, for the improvement in the picture.

[jleupen]

All-

I'm new to DirecTV (5 days now!). This appears to be a good place to post this question. If not, my apologies. Also, this may be a stupid question.

I was able to get separate runs from my OTA antenna to my 2 HD receivers, however it would be extremely difficult to get a separate run to my standard (D11) receiver. It looks like I can just install a diplexer right after the multiswitch and one at the TV? No BBCs on the D11.

I think this picture (thanks to the author) is what I am talking about: http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6111&d=1156285551

Am I reading this correctly?

[Michael D'Angelo]

All-

I'm new to DirecTV (5 days now!). This appears to be a good place to post this question. If not, my apologies. Also, this may be a stupid question.

I was able to get separate runs from my OTA antenna to my 2 HD receivers, however it would be extremely difficult to get a separate run to my standard (D11) receiver. It looks like I can just install a diplexer right after the multiswitch and one at the TV? No BBCs on the D11.

I think this picture (thanks to the author) is what I am talking about: http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6111&d=1156285551

Am I reading this correctly?

:welcome_s to DBStalk

Yes you are able to use diplexers after the multi-switch and before the receiver on any none MPEG4 HD receiver.

[jleupen]

:welcome_s to DBStalk

Yes you are able to use diplexers after the multi-switch and before the receiver on any none MPEG4 HD receiver.

Thanks Mike! One more (stupid) question: Where do I get/buy diplexers?

[Michael D'Angelo]

Thanks Mike! One more (stupid) question: Where do I get/buy diplexers?

Here is a great site to order equipment.

http://www.solidsignal.com/

BTW there is no stupid questions here. We all need help some times.

[harsh]

I'm guessing you'll have to try it. Don't be surprised if some or all of your OTA signal is trashed when the D1x birds go online.

[Michael D'Angelo]

I'm guessing you'll have to try it. Don't be surprised if some or all of your OTA signal is trashed when the D1x birds go online.

You right harsh. He may still have a problem. Even though his other receiver will not receive the MPEG4 HD channels the signals will still be in the SAT lines. I did not even think about that.

[jleupen]

Here is a great site to order equipment.

http://www.solidsignal.com/

BTW there is no stupid questions here. We all need help some times.

Thanks again. I'll take a look at it!

[carl6]

I'm guessing you'll have to try it. Don't be surprised if some or all of your OTA signal is trashed when the D1x birds go online.

He can work around that by using an older 5x8 multiswitch cascaded off the WB68. That way the switch will block the Ka stuff, and also give him an insert point for OTA.

Carl

[loudo]

Thanks Mike! One more (stupid) question: Where do I get/buy diplexers?
You can et them at your local Radio Shack, or I have also found them at it was either Lowes or Home Depot, not sure which one.

[Kansas Zephyr]

Once D10 comes on-line...

I am very interested in how long the cable run between the BBC and the receiver is for those that are successful, using this method of diplexing OTA.

I know there has been testing to indicate that it works now. But, when the bird goes hot, that will be the acid test.

If I go this route, I'm looking at 2 runs around 25' and one 50-75'.

Please start a new thread! :)

[edros]

Before you say it can't be done, yes it can and doing so is easy. Done properly, the signals will not conflict. This has been tested and does work.

You simply need to relocate the B-Band Convertor (BBC) module to a convenient location (i.e., attic perhaps) and then diplex your OTA signal into the downlead after the BBC module. See? I told you it was easy.

The instructions that came with your MPEG-4 receiver instruct you to connect your BBC module to the receiver. However, it does not need to be right at the receiver and in fact can be located anywhere in the coax downlead between the AT9 dish and the receiver, or if an external multiswitch is used, anywhere between the output of the multiswitch and the receiver.

The only important thing to remember is the BBC module must be ahead of your OTA diplexer.

To keep it straight, here's the correct order of things:
1) Option 1 no external multiswitch, In the attic, connect the coax coming from the DISH to the INPUT of the BBC module. Connect the OUTPUT of the BBC module to the SAT connector of the Diplexer. Connect the TV/SAT connector of the diplexer to the coax cable that goes downstairs to the receiver. Connect your OTA signal to the TV connector of the diplexer.

2) Option 2, WITH an external multiswitch Do not tamper with the cables going to the INPUTS of the multiswitch. Use a short coax jumper to connect the INPUT of the BBC module to one of the OUTPUTS of the multiswitch. Connect the OUTPUT of the BBC module to the SAT connector of the Diplexer. Connect the TV/SAT connector of the diplexer to the coax cable that goes to the receiver. Connect your OTA signal to the TV connector of the diplexer.

Downstairs at the receiver, connect the coax from the attic to the TV/SAT connector of a second diplexer. Connect the SAT connector of the diplexer to the SAT input connector of your receiver. Connect the TV connector of the diplexer to the ANTENNA connector of your receiver.

Yes, you can use a splitter with your OTA input lead to have enough outputs available to diplex the signal in to the coax downleads. However, you cannot connect your OTA signal to any of the INPUTS of your multiswitch because a Ka/Ku multiswitch does not provide an OTA input connector.

edit: do not put the BBC module outside. It is not weatherproof.
edit: this concept only works if your BBC module is separate (external). If it's built-in, like on the HR10-250, you might not be able to use this idea but keep reading - the more we pursue this, the more we're learning

Thanks for the fix as I was in the same predicament as the person with the HR10-250. Here is my setup and what I did.

AT9 dish (roof) and WB68 (in attic)
HR20-100 in bedroom replace SD Tivo - 2 25ft runs - 2nd floor
H20 in family room - 1st floor -
Hughes HTL-HD in media room 1st foor - connected to WB68

My predicament was that I was no longer was able to receive OTA on the Hughes no matter what I tried and I did not want to go through the hassle of running another cable. Here is what I did to get it to work.

Took the BBC module from the H20 and connected it in the attic after the WB68 and before the diplexer (combined SAT/OTA). This cable then runs on the outside of the house from the attic to the basement and then to the family room (50+ ft of quad shielded RG6). In the basement is where I split the signal with another diplexer. SAT continues to H20 and OTA is then split again to supply my stereo/Hughes HTL-HD/HTPC.

Working great and thanks for the tip!

[Nofences]

OK, I tried this setting with curious results... I have 4 lines coming in to the attic to my 4 upstairs bedrooms. I installed the BBC on all 4 lines in front of the Diplexor. Connected to those 4 lines are 2 HR20's and 2 H20's. All are giving the Searching for signal message.

What makes this curious is... I have 2 lines running downstairs to a single HR20. I DID NOT connect the BBC on these lines, yet when I tune to channel 499 to test, I still get the searching for Signal message as if they were connected. For my setup please see my sig.

[harsh]

OK, I tried this setting with curious results... I have 4 lines coming in to the attic to my 4 upstairs bedrooms. I installed the BBC on all 4 lines in front of the Diplexor. Connected to those 4 lines are 2 HR20's and 2 H20's. All are giving the Searching for signal message.Here's a map for the Duck fans among us:

1. Satellite antenna to WB68 (all four lines)
2. WB68 output to BBC SAT input for one (and only one) line to each receiver
3. BBC output connected to "attic" diplexer SAT input
4. OTA cable to "attic" diplexer ANT input
5. cable from "attic" diplexer combined output to "receiver" diplexer combined input at back of receiver.
6. "Receiver" diplexer SAT output to SAT input on receiver
7. "Receiver" diplexer ANT output to ANT input on receiver

Note that inputs and outputs on a diplexer are interchangeable. Think of them as SAT, ANT and combined.

On the HR20s, the second cable run should not be messed with.

You'll need to make sure you can keep track of which cable is which to the HR20s. Often the feet markings on the cable jacket can be helpful.


Go Beavs!

[desulliv]

Okay. I’ve read through this an other threads and looked a numerous diagrams, so why am I so confused?

My setup is four lines from Slimline to four splitters to two WB68s for eleven outputs. Outputs go to diplexers, then into the house. I have two HR10-250s, two HR20’s, two H20s and other non-HD Directv Tivos.

I currently get OTA on the HR10-250s and one of the HR20s, as well as HD locals on the HR20 from the satellite.

When the Ka signals come down will I have a problem on the HR20s even if I don’t try to get an OTA signal by splitting at the receiver? I don't care about getting OTA on the HR20s; I just want to get the new HD channels.

In other words, will the OTA signal interfere with the Ka signal, vice versa, or both? I may not know until the time comes. Just wondering if I’m going to have to do some different cabling.

[veryoldschool]

Okay. I’ve read through this an other threads and looked a numerous diagrams, so why am I so confused?

My setup is four lines from Slimline to four splitters to two WB68s for eleven outputs. Outputs go to diplexers, then into the house. I have two HR10-250s, two HR20’s, two H20s and other non-HD Directv Tivos.

I currently get OTA on the HR10-250s and one of the HR20s, as well as HD locals on the HR20 from the satellite.

When the Ka signals come down will I have a problem on the HR20s even if I don’t try to get an OTA signal by splitting at the receiver? I don't care about getting OTA on the HR20s; I just want to get the new HD channels.

In other words, will the OTA signal interfere with the Ka signal, vice versa, or both? I may not know until the time comes. Just wondering if I’m going to have to do some different cabling.
Unless you're diplexing on the HR-20 feeds, you should befine for the new channels.

[desulliv]

Unless you're diplexing on the HR-20 feeds, you should befine for the new channels.
If the feed is diplexed from the WB68, but not diplexed at the HR20, might I have a problem?

[veryoldschool]

If the feed is diplexed from the WB68, but not diplexed at the HR20, might I have a problem?
:confused: you can't diplex before the WB68, so from the WB68 can't be diplexed to the HR-20, but could be on other outputs to the other receivers.

[harsh]

:confused: you can't diplex before the WB68, so from the WB68 can't be diplexed to the HR-20, but could be on other outputs to the other receivers.Is it safe to assume that low-band won't be sent to receivers that can't deal with it? I doubt it.

I'm assuming that low-band is sent to all receivers by the WB68, therefore all diplexed OTA runs a substantial risk of being trashed.

[veryoldschool]

Is it safe to assume that low-band won't be sent to receivers that can't deal with it? I doubt it.

I'm assuming that low-band is sent to all receivers by the WB68, therefore all diplexed OTA runs a substantial risk of being trashed.
The "real" question is: how much isolation does the diplexer have between ports.
Or to ask it another way: will Ka-lo be rejected on the SAT port & by how much?

[Ext 721]

Then, can we eliminate the need of MULTIPLE BBC's by putting the BBC in FRONT of the MultiSwitch ????

Thanks,

CadJoe

no, but you can put one in the multiswitch :D

[Chip Moody]

I just scanned through this thread, but want to make sure about this...

If I take the BBC off my H20 and put it down in my basement on the multiswitch output that feeds the room the H20 is in, I would then be able to put a diplexer in (post-BBC) and send sat + basic cable up the same line to my room? (To then be split back out to the H20 and RF input on my TV)

Cable company has offered to give me basic cable in addition to my cable modem service for $10 less than I was paying for just the modem, so I figured what the heck - cheap insurance if the sat service goes out for any reason.

And while I'm at it - if I can get away with asking this in a D* forum, does anyone know if I should use/need any kind of special splitter or filter on my cable line now that I'll have one lead going to the cable modem and another to my TV?

Thanks,
- Chip

[carl6]

Chip,

In theory you can do what you want. However until they light up the new HD channels from D10 no one knows for sure how well this will work (if at all). DirecTV says you need to keep the BBCs fairly close to the receiver, but they don't specify what that means. Ten feet, 50 feet? Just don't know.

Part 2 of your question/issue is that you also have cable internet. It is normally recommended that you do not diplex that. Split the cable feed and run a dedicated coax to the cable modem.

Carl

[Chip Moody]

Thanks Carl. I suppose I'll wait until D10 comes online and then try playing. The cable service isn't coming until the 25th anyway...

As for part 2, I may not have worded that correctly. My cable line currently comes into my basement and straight up into a first floor room where the modem lives. I was intending to "Y" that cable in the basement with one leg going to the modem and the other leg going to the diplexer. I hadn't intended to put the modem at the distant end of the diplex scheme. My real question was if I needed any kind of "filter" - like those used for DSL lines - for the cable lines. Y'know, filter out the cable modem digital signal and keep it from mussing up the analog basic cable signal.

- Chip

[harsh]

The cable modem won't interfere with the CATV channels, but it may mess with the satellite channels.

I have lifeline cable and a cable modem and it interferes with my UHF modulators. I'm not sure if the diplexer would filter out enough the CATV signals that might interfere with satellite reception or not. I'm going to have to employ a low pass filter to get the CATV signals to stop interfering.

The filter that the cable company uses to prevent me from receiving other analog channels blocks cable channels 30 to 70. I suspect that the higher frequencies on which the digital channels are riding is what is hashing my UHF signal.

[DaBearsfan]

Thanks Carl. I suppose I'll wait until D10 comes online and then try playing. The cable service isn't coming until the 25th anyway...

As for part 2, I may not have worded that correctly. My cable line currently comes into my basement and straight up into a first floor room where the modem lives. I was intending to "Y" that cable in the basement with one leg going to the modem and the other leg going to the diplexer. I hadn't intended to put the modem at the distant end of the diplex scheme. My real question was if I needed any kind of "filter" - like those used for DSL lines - for the cable lines. Y'know, filter out the cable modem digital signal and keep it from mussing up the analog basic cable signal.

- Chip
I have both an OTA antenna and basic cable (provided with Internet service). I have 2 RG6 cable runs from my Multiswitch in my home theater room to our great room. I have been diplexing the OTA on one line and basic cable on the other to the HR10-250 in my great room for over 2 years. That way we get the best of all worlds when bad weather hits. The cable signal has never interfered with the sat signal. All I did was split the cable line with a normal splitter no special filter was required for my cable system.

Just a week and a half ago ago I upgraded all my HR10-250's to HR20-700's. I have not had time yet to run a test to see if it still works. I have been on the road and hopefully tomorrow I can move the BBC's to the multiswitch and see it it still works.

But of course once D10 Goes live it appears all bets are off on whether this will still work. I NEED A SWM!!:D

[jgriffin7]

For what it's worth:
Using my HR20-700 running the latest CE.
Tuner 1: straight from multiswitch in wiring closet, through the house, into BBC hooked directly to back of HR20-700: Sat 103(b) Transponder 11 reading 97.
Tuner 2: from multiswitch in wiring closet into BBC, then diplexed with OTA antenna, up through the house, diplex back out, hooked into back of HR20-700: 103(b) Transponder 11 reading 98.

FYI, tuner 2 showed a reading of 0 before I moved the BBC to before the first diplexer.

That make sense? I'm basically saying it works, or at least I get a signal...

[carl6]

Sounds encouraging. How far is the coax run from multiswitch to receiver?

Carl

[jgriffin7]

How far is the coax run from multiswitch to receiver?

Rough estimate - 70 feet.

[cal87]

I am seeing signal levels of 96 on both tuners. I have an OTA diplexed feed, with the BBC about 30ft from the box. Looks good so far. Of course, will still have to wait for real programming before we're sure about this.

[TreyS]

Any suggestions on a diplexer? Thanks!

[loudo]

Any suggestions on a diplexer? Thanks!
The D* installation video tells you not to use any diplexers. Something to the effect that the OTA frequencies will interfer with the new D10 signals.

[TreyS]

The D* installation video tells you not to use any diplexers. Something to the effect that the OTA frequencies will interfer with the new D10 signals.

Post 111 says otherwise in terms of signal strength. :confused:

[KCCardsfan]

Post #111:

This is what I did, moved my BBC to the output of the Zinwell (with a 6" coax jumper), then Diplexed in my OTA, have 88-96 signal on all 16 103b Transponders, both tuners (just checked). And have the 'Searching for Signal' on ch-499 both tuners. Will wait to see when channels are active if it works 100%, if not I will remove the Diplexers. Had 0 on all 103b tuner 2 Transponders before I moved the BBC.

[loudo]

Post 111 says otherwise in terms of signal strength. :confused:
Go to this site and in one of the installation videos it talks about NOT using them with the new system. I am not sure which one it is, but one of them talks about the use of diplexers. http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/at9_install_videos.asp

[TreyS]

I saw that video too but with the BBC moved closer to the multiswitch and two diplexers installed, signal strength went up to 95 for post 111 above.

I was looking at my 103(b) transponders the other day and noticed Tuner 1 on my HR20 has them all at 85-95 but on Tuner 2 they were all over the place from 0 - 80. I went over the D* installation and noticed the tech left my diplexer on the Tuner 2 line, right BEFORE my BBC at the receiver. I removed it and the signals were just like Tuner 1 for me.

If post 111 works for that guy as well as others here, then it's worth the $7 to try it IMO. I just placed my order....

[gully_foyle]

For what it's worth:
Using my HR20-700 running the latest CE.
Tuner 1: straight from multiswitch in wiring closet, through the house, into BBC hooked directly to back of HR20-700: Sat 103(b) Transponder 11 reading 97.
Tuner 2: from multiswitch in wiring closet into BBC, then diplexed with OTA antenna, up through the house, diplex back out, hooked into back of HR20-700: 103(b) Transponder 11 reading 98.

FYI, tuner 2 showed a reading of 0 before I moved the BBC to before the first diplexer.

That make sense? I'm basically saying it works, or at least I get a signal...

Yes, it does to me. I can report the same: HR20 Sat-1, BBC 30-40 feet away at multiswitch, diplex insertion after BBC, resplit at back of HR20. OTA signal then split 4 ways normally to HR10, TV & (!) VCR (you never know). HR20 Sat-2 has normal downlink to local BBC. Do be sure to use DC blocks on the "Antenna" connectors of the diplexers.

Signal strengths are essentially equal on HR20 sat-level display. Plus or minus a tick either way. Both Sat inputs "pass" the 499 test.

Seems to work. Hopefully SWM will happen before I have to test this with D11, since "this fall" should occur before next Jan-Feb.

[gully_foyle]

Go to this site and in one of the installation videos it talks about NOT using them with the new system. I am not sure which one it is, but one of them talks about the use of diplexers. http://www.solidsignal.com/satellite/at9_install_videos.asp

You cannot use diplexers the same way as before -- it will ONLY work if the BBC goes upstream of the OTA insertion. And you cannot run as long a cable. I have two pairs, one pair runs about 35 feet through the attic and down a wall. The other one runs from the same multiswitch, out the wrong side of the house, down the wall, under the crawlspace and back up through the floor. They both start and end at the same place, but one run is about 100 feet longer than the other (don't ask). That kind of run would be a poor choice.

[peters4n6]

I am among the many waiting for the SWMs to come out before I do anything at my house. Are the SWM-8 units going to be coming out around the same time as the SWM-5? Or will they be on a later timetable?

Eric
Tucson, AZ

[gully_foyle]

Okay. I’ve read through this an other threads and looked a numerous diagrams, so why am I so confused?

My setup is four lines from Slimline to four splitters to two WB68s for eleven outputs. Outputs go to diplexers, then into the house. I have two HR10-250s, two HR20’s, two H20s and other non-HD Directv Tivos.

I currently get OTA on the HR10-250s and one of the HR20s, as well as HD locals on the HR20 from the satellite.

When the Ka signals come down will I have a problem on the HR20s even if I don’t try to get an OTA signal by splitting at the receiver? I don't care about getting OTA on the HR20s; I just want to get the new HD channels.

In other words, will the OTA signal interfere with the Ka signal, vice versa, or both? I may not know until the time comes. Just wondering if I’m going to have to do some different cabling.

Take a simple case: can you take an output from a single WB68 (which is connected directly to the dish), and diplex OTA on a feed destined for a non-Ka box (e.g. HR10-250)?

The answer I got to this was "no."

Apparently if the HR10 selects certain of the Ku-band satellites (IIRC anything but 101), the 103(b) Ka-band sat is also selected, and down comes its signal, too, smack dab in the UHF band. Worse, when D11 goes up, selecting 101 will select D11. Or so I'm told.

OTOH, if the "move the BBC upstream" solution works, it should also move any signal from Ka-band to 2Ghz, so something like the HR10 would presumably filter it out.

[texasbrit]

Take a simple case: can you take an output from a single WB68 (which is connected directly to the dish), and diplex OTA on a feed destined for a non-Ka box (e.g. HR10-250)?

The answer I got to this was "no."

Apparently if the HR10 selects certain of the Ku-band satellites (IIRC anything but 101), the 103(b) Ka-band sat is also selected, and down comes its signal, too, smack dab in the UHF band. Worse, when D11 goes up, selecting 101 will select D11. Or so I'm told.

OTOH, if the "move the BBC upstream" solution works, it should also move any signal from Ka-band to 2Ghz, so something like the HR10 would presumably filter it out.


The correct answer to this is probably "it depends", but all the evidence I have seen indicates "yes". When you insert the diplexer into the sat signal stream which includes the b-band signals, the diplexer attenuates the OTA band component of the satellite signal, essentially reducing or removing the b-band signals. Then the OTA gets added in. The question is - is the attenuation of the diplexer enough to effectively remove the b-band signals? The answer to that seems to be yes - at least, people who have 5x8 multiswitches, which include a diplexer, do not get the 103(b) signals even if they just connect their H20/HR20 directly to the multiswitch. Just try it and see.

[jgriffin7]

Test channel 498 coming through just fine on both tuners!
This is looking better all the time!!

[gully_foyle]

I have one feed to an HR20 with a distant BBC, then diplexed as OP suggested. The other feed is normal, with a local BBC and nothing else back to the multiswitch.

Tuned 498 on one tuner, then tuned 72, 73 and 498 again. Tried other ways to get to other tuner. In all cases got slide SUCCESSFULLY.

So far, so good.

[gully_foyle]

The correct answer to this is probably "it depends", but all the evidence I have seen indicates "yes". When you insert the diplexer into the sat signal stream which includes the b-band signals, the diplexer attenuates the OTA band component of the satellite signal, essentially reducing or removing the b-band signals. Then the OTA gets added in. The question is - is the attenuation of the diplexer enough to effectively remove the b-band signals? The answer to that seems to be yes - at least, people who have 5x8 multiswitches, which include a diplexer, do not get the 103(b) signals even if they just connect their H20/HR20 directly to the multiswitch. Just try it and see.

That's good, because otherwise I see a LOT of trucks rolling to fix every last OTA diplex install on legacy equipment.

[loudo]

That's good, because otherwise I see a LOT of trucks rolling to fix every last OTA diplex install on legacy equipment.
When I had my 5 LNB dish installed, the installer told me I should get rid of the diplexers. I did and ran separate lines. In doing it I brought up my signal levels of both my D* signal and my OTA signal. I am even reading 100 on a couple of channels on 103b.

[desulliv]

Test channel 498 coming through just fine on both tuners!
This is looking better all the time!!
You'll need to check the signal meters for sat 103 (b) to be sure. I have two HR20s and both look good on 498. One of them reads fine on all transponders at 103 (b), but the other one is all zeros. That one has diplexers, so I have some work to do to remove them.

[gully_foyle]

When I had my 5 LNB dish installed, the installer told me I should get rid of the diplexers. I did and ran separate lines. In doing it I brought up my signal levels of both my D* signal and my OTA signal. I am even reading 100 on a couple of channels on 103b.From what I see, almost no one on the west coast sees a single 90. Most are 75-85. On the east coast almost everyone is in the 90's. So, it's hard to say what causes what, but I note that I can't tell the difference bewteen signal strength on the diplexed feed and the other one.

[jgriffin7]

You'll need to check the signal meters for sat 103 (b) to be sure. I have two HR20s and both look good on 498. One of them reads fine on all transponders at 103 (b), but the other one is all zeros. That one has diplexers, so I have some work to do to remove them.

No problems. I have a single HR20 with both tuners hooked up. One diplexed with OTA, the other not. Both have high signal strengths (90+ in Dallas area), and both show the channel 498 slide.

[Kansas Zephyr]

To those successfully seeing D10 with the BBCs installed at some distance from the receivers with OTA diplexing, congratulations!

Now, would you be kind enough to tell me the cable length between the BBC and your receivers (that are working with D10)? I'm going to have runs of about 20', 25' and 50'. The BBCs will reside outside, in a weather resistant box. I know they can't "swim" but hopefully they can take some temperature swings.

I have been waiting to upgrade to the 5LNB dish, until after "the acid test" to verify that this workaround can actually deliver the goods.

I have preexisting single cable runs, dixplexing OTA is my only option. I didn't want to lose it. So, my choices were to wait and see if this worked, or wait until the SWM was available, whichever came first.

Thanks much!

[loudo]

Now, would you be kind enough to tell me the cable length between the BBC and your receivers (that are working with D10)? I'm going to have runs of about 20', 25' and 50'. The BBCs will reside outside, in a weather resistant box. I know they can't "swim" but hopefully they can take some temperature swings.

The BBCs are supposed to be attached to the receiver w/ the coaxial connector attached to them. I think I remember reading that they have to be at the receiver.

Here is where the info on the BBCs is located on the D* site: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P4370042

[Kansas Zephyr]

The BBCs are supposed to be attached to the receiver w/ the coaxial connector attached to them. I think I remember reading that they have to be at the receiver.

Here is where the info on the BBCs is located on the D* site: http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=P4370042

Thanks. I know where they are supposed to be installed. However, that's not the point here.

This thread is a specific "workaround" for those wishing to diplex OTA with the new birds.

In order to achieve that, you can't have the BBCs at the back of the receiver, since the OTA must be diplexed AFTER the BBC in order to work. In theory anyway. :)

[loudo]

Thanks. I know where they are supposed to be installed. However, that's not the point here.

This thread is a specific "workaround" for those wishing to diplex OTA with the new birds.

In order to achieve that, you can't have the BBCs at the back of the receiver, since the OTA must be diplexed AFTER the BBC in order to work. In theory anyway. :)
OK, sorry didn't catch that.

[Swede]

I have about 30' of cable to the BBC. It is hooked up to the diplexer and goes to the back of the receiver through about 50' of cable to the next diplexer. All works like it should. 498 shows the info slide.

[saryon]

I've got about an 80' run on my H20 with the BBC at the far end from the receiver on the other side of some real Acme diplexers I got when I first installed my service in 98.....

[jgriffin7]

About 70'. BBC hooked directly after multi-switch, then immediately diplexed with OTA, then the 70' run to the HR20.

[Kansas Zephyr]

This is great! Keep the feedback coming.

I'm about to call retention for 2 more HR20s and a 5LNB dish, now that I can still keep OTA! (Without waiting until the eventual release of the SWM...Which I still very much want.)

I hope I can still get the "shipping only" discount. ;)

[dbott1]

Can I diplex my HR10-250? Have ota antenna currently direct into hr20-700. Need to send ota antenna to 2 other non mpeg-4 recievers in different part of house. How is this best done? Can I just diplex in the signal only on those non mpeg4 recievers after the 4x8 multi swich?

[Kansas Zephyr]

Can I diplex my HR10-250? Have ota antenna currently direct into hr20-700. Need to send ota antenna to 2 other non mpeg-4 recievers in different part of house. How is this best done? Can I just diplex in the signal only on those non mpeg4 recievers after the 4x8 multi swich?

I diplex OTA for my HR10-250 now...but I'm still on a 3LNB dish.

If I read the fourms correctly, if you have a 5LNB dish, you need to diplex AFTER a BBC. (after the multiswitch) Dish>multiswitch>BBC>diplexer>coax>diplexer>IRD input/OTA input

I know the HR10-250 can't "see" the new channels. But, the frequencies used by the new birds will conflict with the OTA frequencies. So, you still need to diplex AFTER a BBC for OTA to work with a 5LNB dish and the HR10-250.

I think this is right.

[saryon]

The dish needs to feed directly into the WB68. There's no OTA input on the WB68.

I've diplexed in CATV after the WB68 on a run to an H20, and OTA after the WB68 to an HR20 and it seems to work (I can tune the new D10 broadcast channel and see it fine, then switch to the CATV input on my flat panel and see CATV, and can tune OTA channels on the HR20).

I'm not sure how the inside of a multiswitch works, but I think that the HR10-250 will only ask the port it's hooked up to to pass channels it's capable of seeing (101/110/119) - thus, even without the B-Band converter, you should be able to diplex in OTA *AFTER* the WB68 and have OTA still work.

[Kansas Zephyr]

The dish needs to feed directly into the WB68. There's no OTA input on the WB68.

I've diplexed in CATV after the WB68 on a run to an H20, and OTA after the WB68 to an HR20 and it seems to work (I can tune the new D10 broadcast channel and see it fine, then switch to the CATV input on my flat panel and see CATV, and can tune OTA channels on the HR20).

I'm not sure how the inside of a multiswitch works, but I think that the HR10-250 will only ask the port it's hooked up to to pass channels it's capable of seeing (101/110/119) - thus, even without the B-Band converter, you should be able to diplex in OTA *AFTER* the WB68 and have OTA still work.

I think the multiswitch provides everything requested to every output. It doesnt know what kind of receiver you have hooked to it.

Don't you still need the BBC to shift the new signals out of the OTA range? Then you can diplex afterward.

Unless the multiswitch "blocks" the new sats from passing through to the HR10-250, it could conflict with OTA. From the threads I've lurked, I don't think this is the case, and you do need to diplex after a BBC.

[eakes]

Diplexing may or may not work, it depends on which OTA channels are present. When I first set up my slimline dish I used a diplexer to combine the sat and OTA signal in the attic (BBC on the dish side of the diplexer) with a single coax run to my computer room. Everything worked until they began to run test traffic on the satellite, at that time one of the HD OTA channels got wiped out, ie pixelation to the point of not watchable. Ran an additional coax line and got rid of the diplexers to cure the problem.

So it may work or it may not.

[saryon]

As I said, I'm not sure on the internal workings of the multiswitch but I think it only electrically connects the port to the requested LNB port (hi/lo voltage, tone/no tone), not "all lnb, all the time". I can experiment in the morning with CATV and an old non-HD receiver to see.

[desulliv]

Some of my lines are diplexed and some are not. I've got non-diplexed lines going to my two HR20's. I have diplexed lines going to my two HR10's. So far, OTA is working on both HR10's and I'm getting good signals at 103(b) on both HR20s and getting the congratulations screen on channel 498.

When content starts coming from 103(b) will that interfere with the OTA signals on the HR10 or HD on the HR20, vice versa, or both? Wait and see?

[gully_foyle]

To those successfully seeing D10 with the BBCs installed at some distance from the receivers with OTA diplexing, congratulations!

Now, would you be kind enough to tell me the cable length between the BBC and your receivers (that are working with D10)? I'm going to have runs of about 20', 25' and 50'. The BBCs will reside outside, in a weather resistant box. I know they can't "swim" but hopefully they can take some temperature swings.

I have been waiting to upgrade to the 5LNB dish, until after "the acid test" to verify that this workaround can actually deliver the goods.

I have preexisting single cable runs, dixplexing OTA is my only option. I didn't want to lose it. So, my choices were to wait and see if this worked, or wait until the SWM was available, whichever came first.

Thanks much!

35-40 feet from BBC to HR20. No difference in on-screen meter readings compared with the non-diplexed run of the same length to the same HR20. Can see: OTA, HD locals, all sats, channels 480, 481, 498 on both tuners. No known issues.

[gully_foyle]

This is great! Keep the feedback coming.

I'm about to call retention for 2 more HR20s and a 5LNB dish, now that I can still keep OTA! (Without waiting until the eventual release of the SWM...Which I still very much want.)

I hope I can still get the "shipping only" discount. ;)

Remember: "Your mileage may vary"

[gully_foyle]

Can I diplex my HR10-250? Have ota antenna currently direct into hr20-700. Need to send ota antenna to 2 other non mpeg-4 recievers in different part of house. How is this best done? Can I just diplex in the signal only on those non mpeg4 recievers after the 4x8 multi swich?

Some say yes, most say no.

The problem is that the new sat B-band overlaps UHF frequencies, which is where all OTA HD signals are broadcast. Now one might think that, since the HR10 never wants the signal from the new sat, that it won't be affected. Alas, this isn't true.

When a box tunes a given satellite, the multiswitch actually passes the signals from several satellites. Depending on the satellite tuned, this group may include the new D10 sat. If so, bye bye OTA (and bye bye D10 signal, too, if you try this with a HR20 without the remote BBC trick).

Now, some claim that this isn't an issue with the HR10 because the diplexer will filter out the unwanted D10 UHF signal on the satellite-in connector and prevent interference. Maybe yes, maybe no. Probably depends a lot on the diplexer.

[gully_foyle]

I know the HR10-250 can't "see" the new channels. But, the frequencies used by the new birds will conflict with the OTA frequencies. So, you still need to diplex AFTER a BBC for OTA to work with a 5LNB dish and the HR10-250.

I'm not sure that the BBC isn't itself switched by a signal from the HR20. If it is, you can't use a dummy BBC to do the same thing with an HR10, since the HR10 won't provide the switching signal.

Now, you can of course split OTA the old fashioned way once you have it down the HR20 cable.

[gusmahler]

Here's my setup:

WB68 multiswitch. Two lines to BBC connected directly to HR20 in living room. Receive 480, 481, 498, 9300, 9301 just fine.

Two lines go to the bedroom on the opposite side of the house. One of the lines is diplexed with a cable modem signal. Both the signals go to an R15 in the bedroom.

My Internet has been intermittent since Monday. Comcast denies any problems on their end.

I just noticed that the timing of the intermittent signals coincides with when 9300 and 9301 went live. Could those channels going live have anything to do with the cable modem problems?

Haven't they been using 103(b) ever since 480, 481, and 498 went live? (I haven't had any problems until yesterday.)

How can I test the signal? The easiest solution would probably be to relocate the cable modem to the back of the house where the cable drop is. But then I'd have to run CAT6 all the way to the computer room.

[KCCardsfan]

I connected my BBC's to the output of the Zinwell WB68 using 6" coax jumpers, then on one BBC diplexed in my OTA. EVERY test channel worked, my 103b signals are 84-97 on both tuners & ALL the new HD channels work including the 5-Starz HD channels.

Whoever posted this Diplexer 'fix' for 103b a few weeks ago, THANKS!!!
__________________

[Nick-IA]

Has anyone tested this method now that the new hd channels are in?
I dont have a multiswitch, just 2 runs from my sat and one of them is diplexed.

Thanks
Nick

[ChicagoTC]

See the post right above yours.

I'm also using this successfully.

[KCCardsfan]

Has anyone tested this method now that the new hd channels are in?
I dont have a multiswitch, just 2 runs from my sat and one of them is diplexed.

Thanks
Nick

Yes, I posted right before you. Works perfect!

[FostersBeerGuy]

One more question...has anyone else done this successfully, but still has issues with one or more channels?

I have switched out diplexers, BBCs, etc. but still am unable to get my local ABC affiliate OTA (771 error). I still get it on a diplexed HR10-250 so I know it is not the antenna. All other channels come in perfectly.

It's not a big deal, I would just like to know if this is anomalous or if others might be having similar issues.

Regards,

-FBG

[saryon]

Nope all my OTAs from 2-1 to 56-1 work fine for me on an HR20-700

[SteveEJ]

OK folks.. What brand/model diplexors are you using? I am looking for the best setup for my HR20-100.

Thanks,
Steve

[KCCardsfan]

OK folks.. What brand/model diplexors are you using? I am looking for the best setup for my HR20-100.

Thanks,
Steve

I'm using just plain/cheap RCA Diplexers that I have always used from my installing days 13 years ago. I bought them for $2 each from the distributor, I'm not having and have never had any trouble with them. My 103b readings are exactly 1 point less on each transponder on tuner 2 which has the Diplexer, and all the new HD channels are working for me.

They are still available on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RCA-Satellite-TV-Antenna-Diplexer-D920-FREE-SHIP_W0QQitemZ260163661368QQihZ016QQcategoryZ11726 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[saryon]

I've got real cheap Channel Master diplexers I've been using with various receivers since I originally installed service back in the late 90s.....

[SteveEJ]

Cool.. Thanks. I found RCA D920's for $2.60 on Amazon.

Here is the sequence..

Multiswitch--------BBC------Diplexer----//-----Diplexer-------------Sat In
............................................|..... .....................|
.........................OTA Antenna--............................ ---------------OTA In

. are placeholders

Correct?

[saryon]

that looks like the right diagram to me.

[TreyS]

Cool.. Thanks. I found RCA D920's for $2.60 on Amazon.

Here is the sequence..

Multiswitch--------BBC------Diplexer----//-----Diplexer-------------Sat In
............................................|..... .....................|
.........................OTA Antenna--............................ ---------------OTA In

. are placeholders

Correct?



Use this pic:

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6109&d=1156285233

[jwd45244]

OK folks.. What brand/model diplexors are you using? I am looking for the best setup for my HR20-100.

Thanks,
Steve

I use Channel Master CM4002IFD as combining diplexers and CM4001IFD as splitting diplexers. Links to each at Solid Signal are: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM4002IFD and
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM4001IFD respectively.

[Nofences]

Now that the new channels are available from the D10 sattelite, I wanted to verify that this method DOES work! I am running this setup now and I am getting all of the new channels available to me, not to mention my OTA channels although at a slightly weaker signal, there is no quality loss.

[tivoreno]

Use this pic:

http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6109&d=1156285233
I read this thread and think I understand the recommended approach, but that does not seem to fit my scenario, which I thought was simple. I have four sat lines from the dish (on the roof) to 3 co-located DVRs (in a fully sunken basement with no exposed exterior walls): 1-HR10, 1-HR20 and 1-SD Tivo. My HD locals are not on D* so I need to use OTA, and another cable run is really impractical.

1) Is there any way to cascade the recommended setup to another multiswitch?

2) Is there any way to diplex before the multiswitch (ie multiple BBCs)?

3) Aside from running a new line and abandoning diplexing, is SWM my only hope?

[veryoldschool]

I read this thread and think I understand the recommended approach, but that does not seem to fit my scenario, which I thought was simple. I have four sat lines from the dish (on the roof) to 3 co-located DVRs (in a fully sunken basement with no exposed exterior walls): 1-HR10, 1-HR20 and 1-SD Tivo. My HD locals are not on D* so I need to use OTA, and another cable run is really impractical.

1) Is there any way to cascade the recommended setup to another multiswitch?

2) Is there any way to diplex before the multiswitch (ie multiple BBCs)?

3) Aside from running a new line and abandoning diplexing, is SWM my only hope?
1) all multi-switch options need four feeds from the dish.
2) diplexing before a multi-switch won't work since the switch will only connect to that cable when that SAT is tuned to by the receiver.
3) if you can't get another coax to your location, then SWM seems to be your only option.

[ChicagoTC]

My setp

http://jenandtom.phanfare.com/show/external/401031/553282/28022317/file.jpg

[tivoreno]

1) all multi-switch options need four feeds from the dish.
2) diplexing before a multi-switch won't work since the switch will only connect to that cable when that SAT is tuned to by the receiver.
3) if you can't get another coax to your location, then SWM seems to be your only option.Ya, that's what I expected to hear. OK, so what do I lose if I run 2 lines straight to the HR20 and then multiswitch the remaining 2 lines (with one diplexed) for the HR10 and SD-Tivo?

[veryoldschool]

Ya, that's what I expected to hear. OK, so what do I lose if I run 2 lines straight to the HR20 and then multiswitch the remaining 2 lines (with one diplexed) for the HR10 and SD-Tivo?
Two lines into a multi-switch will give:
even & odd transponders from 101 or
even & odd TPs from 110 & 119 or
even from 101, 110, 119 or
odd from 101, 119 or ....
This table will go through all of the combinations of half the channels.

[jwd45244]

This pdf file shows how I was able to diplex OTA: http://www.dbstalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10390&d=1191510874

I get signal readings off the D10 bird (103(b)) in the 95+ and I get every channel and no interference on my DTV from OTA or none on my OTA from DTV. This just works.

[JeffBowser]

Nice drawing.

Just to interject here, I tried using splitters with my OTA as you show in your diagram. I had little success with stable OTA signals until I replaced the splitter in the attic with an OTA distribution amp instead. Jumped me from 8 watchable channels to 42 (already had a pre-amp at the antenna, same one you have)


My setp

http://jenandtom.phanfare.com/show/external/401031/553282/28022317/file.jpg

[Hoffer]

This question has probably already been asked.

Can the BBC be outside? I'm thinking it is probably not weather proof, but thought I'd ask. I live in Minnesota, so there is rain, snow, cold, humid, etc...

[veryoldschool]

This question has probably already been asked.

Can the BBC be outside? I'm thinking it is probably not weather proof, but thought I'd ask. I live in Minnesota, so there is rain, snow, cold, humid, etc...
Your thinking is correct.

[ChicagoTC]

Hoffer,

Correct the BBCs are not weatherproof. Mine however are outside right now in a waterproof sprinker control box. We'll see what happens in the winter.

JeffB,

I'm currently 8.2 miles from the two towers that broadcast here in Chicago. I get every channel except VHF channel 3 on my home theater PC. I do get that channel on my D* boxes. So i'm not sure if it's a function of the two splitters or the HD tuner in the PC.

[Hoffer]

I figured as much. When the new channels kicked in, I discovered my diplexor setup didn’t make the BBC on tuner 1 happy. So, I had to remove it and I’ve now got an OTA antenna on my TV for CW and PBS in HD. Wouldn’t mind going back to the antenna on my roof, but looks like I won’t be doing that.

[ChicagoTC]

It really depends on where your multiswitch and OTA are located. From everyone using diplexers and BBCs here it seems to only matter that the BBC be before the diplexer. How long the cable from the MS to the BBC or cable to diplexer don't seem to have any impact.

[loudo]

Nice drawing.

Just to interject here, I tried using splitters with my OTA as you show in your diagram. I had little success with stable OTA signals until I replaced the splitter in the attic with an OTA distribution amp instead. Jumped me from 8 watchable channels to 42 (already had a pre-amp at the antenna, same one you have)
What did you use for a OTA distribution amp?

[JeffBowser]

:nono: I was in a hurry, and ran to RatShack and grabbed their 6 port OTA distribution amp for $25. Shoulda gone to SolidSignal and gotten a higher quality one, but this one cured what ailed me.


What did you use for a OTA distribution amp?

[brasilcaps]

My problem is that my antenna is my diplexer and my multiswitch is outside. So given your instruction, I have to put the BBC outside.

[texasbrit]

My problem is that my antenna is my diplexer and my multiswitch is outside. So given your instruction, I have to put the BBC outside.


If you have one of the Terk antennas where the cable from the dish runs through the antenna, relocating the BBC won't work, you need to bypass the antenna with the sat cable and run a separate cable to the antenna. I believe the Terk took its power from the satellite cable also, so you would need to provide another source of power on the new cable.

[veryoldschool]

The BBC is not made to be in the weather, so you would need to compensate for that.

[zathras]

Guys, this is a great thread! I was kinda ticked off when the dtv installer told me yesterday that I'd need to run another (3rd) coax to my HR20-100 to continue to get the OTA local HD's. I figured surely someone's got a workaround.. so I check on here and lo and behold you guys have figured out a way.. fantastic!

got a quick question on the diplexers- can you use identical ones for both ends? I've seen some brands that indicate one model for use on the 'combine' end and a different model for use on the 'split' end. Other brands I've seen don't seem to indicate a difference... how important is it to use a different type of diplexer on each end? Or can I just buy two of the same type? And what about 1-port DC pass vs both-port DC pass?

Thanks!

Z

[harsh]

I figured surely someone's got a workaround.. so I check on here and lo and behold you guys have figured out a way.. fantastic!YMMV.got a quick question on the diplexers- can you use identical ones for both ends?Typically diplexers go both ways.And what about 1-port DC pass vs both-port DC pass?Power should pass only on the satellite leg.

[gully_foyle]

To sum up:

1) Put the BBC on the far side of the far diplexer.

2) But not outside.

3) The downlink run from the BBC should be as short as possible. A long cable will degrade the signal badly.

4) Use DC blocks where the OTA-only cables connect, top & bottom.

5) The cable chosen must go to an HR20 or H20 sat input.

6) You may use splitters once you have OTA down.

[Keeska]

I understand that diplexing the OTA signal may or may not work. But for those who want to try it can someone recommend good quality diplexors? I know Radio Shack sells them but based on past experiences with Radio Shack purchases I have made I would like another source if possible.

[Matt9876]

Zenith,Channel Master and RCA diplexers work well.

The red labeled Dish network Diplexers work very well ! "don't know who makes them but I've used a case of them so far."

Matt

[kd4ao]

I was wondering if a person could paint the BBC with liquid electrical tape to make it suitable for outside use. What do others think.

[Matt9876]

I was wondering if a person could paint the BBC with liquid electrical tape to make it suitable for outside use. What do others think.

Or just tape the ends and do an epoxy dip.

[veryoldschool]

Or just tape the ends and do an epoxy dip.
Keep it out of the Sun and cold too.

[betterdan]

I just placed my bbc in a plastic sandwich bag then taped the ends where the cable sticks out closed with packing tape. It is outside in a plastic box on the side of the house where the cables enter the house. It has rained a couple of times and has gotten down into the 40s at night since I've done this and no problems with it so far that I know of.

[Matt9876]

Successful brick/waterproof of a BBC converter.

I added a six inch jumper to input side of the BBC shaped cables in a "U" shape with the BBC on the bottom and placed it in a shallow clear plastic shape/Mold "cut one from a flash light package" and poured in about 1.5 inches of 5 min. epoxy.

Successful test and it fits into the gray cable box.

FYI : For those with a loose output cable on the output end of the BBC just cut labels and pop open the gray box,Then adjust the loose screw on connector.

Matt

[Keeska]

Zenith,Channel Master and RCA diplexers work well.

The red labeled Dish network Diplexers work very well ! "don't know who makes them but I've used a case of them so far."

Matt

Thank you. Ordered a couple of channel masters (they were easiest to find :-)).

[Matt9876]

Zenith,Channel Master and RCA diplexers work well.

The red labeled Dish network Diplexers work very well ! "don't know who makes them but I've used a case of them so far."

Matt

Red labeled diplexers made by Holland Co.

My cost is under $15 a pair found picture on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/50-New-STVC-Satellite-Antenna-Combiner-Diplexer_W0QQitemZ200161473970QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1 49972QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Kansas Zephyr]

Woo hoo!

I just replaced the 3 LNB Multi-Sat with a new Slimline today.

I've got existing "home-run" single RG6 cables, from several rooms, to a box on the back of the house.

The coax from the dish to the, now upgraded weather-resistant sprinkler control box, is about 40'. Inside are the BBCs, OTA splitter, and diplexers. The runs to the HR20s are approximately 30', 50', and 80'.

Both the new HD and OTA are coexisting just fine. Signals on the xponers that matter are a couple of upper 80s, mostly 90s with a few 100s.

I haven't "hardened" the BBCs. Since D* is dispensing them like PEZ, we'll see how long they last. They'll only get hot and cold, but not wet, outside in the box.

Thank you very much! Without this forum, I wouldn't have known about the workaround to get both OTA and the new HD. (Until the SWM shows up!)

This is a great resource.

[Tonedeaf]

Going to have to try this when I get home. We have 1 HD local channel that a lot of the Dallas Mavs games are on in HD and D* does not carry that channel in HD yet.

[jefbal99]

My install is on Friday and I think I have everything in place to diplex in my OTA antenna that is going up this afternoon.

I built a lil mounting rig that has my OTA power inserter and splitter, then going to my diplexers. Left room for the Multiswitch, straight run to the DVR and the BBCs for the other two runs (one to the HR20 and the other to the H20).

Just need to run one more piece of Coax and two cat5 cables and everything will be ready for Friday morning.

Many thanks to all the diagrams and notes in this thread. Made the setup very easy and understandable. :)

[jefbal99]

I want to thank everyone in this thread of all the great info. The installers loved my lil rack and everything hooked up very quickly.

Love the OTA and the DirecTV on both of my HDtvs :)

[JustRob]

I've read this thread a few times and I have two things with which I am confused :confused:.

Confusion 1:
Poster desulliv in post 99 states:
"My setup is four lines from Slimline to four splitters to two WB68s for eleven outputs. Outputs go to diplexers, then into the house. I have two HR10-250s, two HR20’s, two H20s and other non-HD Directv Tivos."

and

BMoreRavens picture posted on his .sig shows a skywalker dual power passing splitter two both the SWM8 and the WB68.

I don't understand this at all. I thought there was a multiswitch in the 5-LNB satellite dish. I didn't think you could install a passive signal splitter past the multiswitch. The reason being because the receiver sends both a DC voltage and an AC signal (22kHz?) to tell the dish which LNB to utilize. You can't do this with a passive power splitter, as there will be two devices possibly driving the same input. Right?? I am a EE so feel free to talk technical to me :D

Confusion 2:
Picture of config for poster BMoreRavens shows just ONE signal going from SWM8 to HR20-700. Presumably, he is using dual tuner functionality. Does that mean you only need one cable line going to one input of the HR20-700, and the HR20-700 internally recognizes SWM8 and can internally split the signal into both receivers (different frequencies obviously)?

I also don't understand how the SWM8 can be sent simultaneously two different signals (voltages) for receiving odd of one satellite and even of another (over one coax line), if this is the way it's done (can't recall whether voltage or AC signal is for either satellite angle or odd/even - or if it's related to signal polarization). I would assume that the mechanism for doing this in the receiver must first probe for what it is connected to (whether it be an old-style 3LNB dish and traditional MPEG2 HD or newer KaKu + BBC + new multiswitch + 5LNB dish, or 5LNB and SWM8).

I'd like to have dual-tuner functionality with HR20-700 and OTA with just two (or one?) coax lines run to each room. I'd also like to know when DirecTV installers will know what a SWM8 is and when it'll be available.

DirecTV tells me that OTA is "my problem" :icon_lame and if I want OTA, then I have to buy equipment to facilitate this. :eek: However, if I want dual-tuner functionality on one coax, they should give me what equipment is needed for this, right? :bang

[Smooth Jazzer]

Several members have placed the BBC(s) and the splitter(s) indoors. That said the BBC does NOT have to be six inches away from the MSW. The rule to follow is TO place the BBC before the diplexer. In other words the BBC pigtail has to be connected to the diplexer SAT input. The RG6 cable coming from the MSW is connected to the BBC input. Connect the cable coming from the OTA cable or splitter to the diplexer ANT input. The remaining diplexer connector gets the RG6 cable coming from the H20. The other end of that RG6 cable connect it to the diplexer with two six inch RG6 coax jumpers which in turn are connected to the H20. SAT to SAT of the H20. ANT to ANT of the H20. That is the way I have it. It works like a charm and I have both the diplexer and the BBC away from rain and snow.
Thanks

[Tom Robertson]

JustRob,
Splitters
Splitters can only be used between a multiswitch (normally the one on the dish) and two (or more) multiswitches in parallel. The big keys are power passing on at least one leg of the splitter (all, if passive switches are used), and make absolutely certain the downstream switches are all aligned on the switches. The 13V/no tone inputs for all switches MUST go to the same splitter, likewise with the 18V/no tone, 13V/22KHz, and 18V/22KHz so that all the switches get the same feed from the dish that they both want.

(The power passing splitters have protective diodes so the voltages don't loop back. Yes, the multiple 22KHz signaling can be an issue in theory, but doesn't seem to be a problem in practice.)

SWM
SWM is Single Wire Multiswitch. Its whole purpose in life is to do very fancy frequency shifting on individual transponders as requested by the receivers rather than whole band frequency shifting that the LNB does. Since only individual transponders are on the coax, DIRECTV can put 8 tuners worth of transponders on a single coax (plus one channel for other stuff) so up to 4 DVRs or 8 single tuner receivers can be driven off a single wire.

And the frequencies the SWM uses are outside the OTA band, so OTA can easily be diplexed in and out of that same single wire. Very nice!

The only sad part of the SWM tale is that it is just now being deployed in a a few locations. DIRECTV would normally be happy to give you one (or two if needed). I hope existing DIY'ers will be able to order them, perhaps around the first of the year?

OTA with regular Switches
That can be done as this thread is all about such. BBC, indoors, before the OTA diplex in.

Cheers,
Tom

[NR4P]

I posted a detailed diagram on diplexing the Slimline dish and HR20, but H20 will be identical, just with one SAT input.

It's shown here.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=103790

And I hope Tom's point on the SWM is true. I would like to change my system to a SWM8 when they become available.

[veryoldschool]

JustRob,
Oh goodie, Can I pick on a double E this morning? I see I'm late to the party this morning. :lol:

Both the WB68 and the SWM have four inputs from the dish. These are the 13/18 volt tone/no tone combinations needed to power the dish. Since these are the same, they can be split to the same input on another switch with power [DC] passing splitters. Since the SWM is powered if the splitter is only power passing on one leg and this is connected to the passing port, the LNB stays powered even though the WB68 leg isn't driving the LNB.
SWM [single wire multi-switch] can by design split it's output to several receivers that are SWM capable. The HR-20 in "SWM mode" only needs one SAT connection.
The SWM tunes to the transponder required by each tuner and outputs just that one the SWM channel fro each receiver/tuner.
SWM5 works with 5 and SWM8 works with 8.
All of the SWM output channels are above the OTA band [SWM converts frequencies along with tuning to SAT transponders].

[jefbal99]

JustRob,
Oh goodie, Can I pick on a double E this morning? I see I'm late to the party this morning. :lol:

Both the WB68 and the SWM have four inputs from the dish. These are the 13/18 volt tone/no tone combinations needed to power the dish. Since these are the same, they can be split to the same input on another switch with power [DC] passing splitters. Since the SWM is powered if the splitter is only power passing on one leg and this is connected to the passing port, the LNB stays powered even though the WB68 leg isn't driving the LNB.
SWM [single wire multi-switch] can by design split it's output to several receivers that are SWM capable. The HR-20 in "SWM mode" only needs one SAT connection.
The SWM tunes to the transponder required by each tuner and outputs just that one the SWM channel fro each receiver/tuner.
SWM5 works with 5 and SWM8 works with 8.
All of the SWM output channels are above the OTA band [SWM converts frequencies along with tuning to SAT transponders].

Just a note to add, the SWM8 has an OTA input on the switch, while the SWM5 requires diplexers on both ends to combine, then split out the signals.

[JustRob]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. My inquisitive, "what-if" side has some unresolved questions though. Perhaps once these Q's get answered, they should be stickied as some kind of massive FAQ. :grin: If I have time, I can do this if there is enough interest, and most definitely if D* can get me an SWM8 :icon_hroc


Splitters
Splitters can only be used between a multiswitch (normally the one on the dish) and two (or more) multiswitches in parallel. The big keys are power passing on at least one leg of the splitter (all, if passive switches are used), and make absolutely certain the downstream switches are all aligned on the switches. The 13V/no tone inputs for all switches MUST go to the same splitter, likewise with the 18V/no tone, 13V/22KHz, and 18V/22KHz so that all the switches get the same feed from the dish that they both want.

(The power passing splitters have protective diodes so the voltages don't loop back. Yes, the multiple 22KHz signaling can be an issue in theory, but doesn't seem to be a problem in practice.)


Indeed, I see how this will work; I had overlooked the obvious implication (below). My 5x8 multiswitch (Terk) actually shows the 4 signals as you show above, to the satellite. The important thing here is to make sure to use a splitter with or-ing (steering) diodes to prevent back-powering a device powered off, and to only combine the same signal from both MS's on this splitter. I.e., don't combine MS1 13V/22kHz and MS2 18V/no-tone with a splitter to the dish.

I suspect that there shouldn't be a problem, so long as splitters with steering diodes are used. However, I suspect if you tried to three-way split, there could be a problem with the modulated signals (22kHz) due to the additive signal wander (assuming the 2-way split). It's hard to say without knowing the LNB discrimination circuitry. After analyzing this with Octave assuming two signals with or-ing diodes in the splitter/combiner, it's clear that even with a 100ppm oscillator at opposite ends of the tolerance, a 22kHz signal will still reach the satellite (assuming 1Vp 22kHz oscillator and 13V DC signal).

SWM
SWM is Single Wire Multiswitch. Its whole purpose in life is to do very fancy frequency shifting on individual transponders as requested by the receivers rather than whole band frequency shifting that the LNB does. Since only individual transponders are on the coax, DIRECTV can put 8 tuners worth of transponders on a single coax (plus one channel for other stuff) so up to 4 DVRs or 8 single tuner receivers can be driven off a single wire.

And the frequencies the SWM uses are outside the OTA band, so OTA can easily be diplexed in and out of that same single wire. Very nice!


I knew about the multiple channels but I didn't realize until now the implication here; up to 8 channels multiplexed (frequency-up/down-shifted is probably more accurate). So that makes me wonder the bandwidth of each band, and if there are any repercussions regarding the tilting (frequency response) of all RG6/RG59 cable. Does that mean, you could get a weak signal that would then be using the upper-end of the usable coax band, and then it would be even weaker if it got the penalty of having to use the more attenuative frequency band of the coax. Also, because of the frequency shifting, you must also filter the out-of-that-band harmonics, which means possibly more insertion loss or distortion, especially if the components used are cheap (low-Q).

Since the SWM8 has two outputs (4 channels each), the signal must be split, so I wonder if the OTA would be better off using a separate feed with power distribution amp using an LNA.

SWM
The only sad part of the SWM tale is that it is just now being deployed in a a few locations. DIRECTV would normally be happy to give you one (or two if needed). I hope existing DIY'ers will be able to order them, perhaps around the first of the year?


Yeah I wish I could have gotten in on the "beta testing" that was available until a few months ago. I have the slimline installed, and I explicitly stated on the work order to bring an SWM8 when installing the dish. The installer knew nothing about it, neither did his bosses, but DirecTV knew that the "beta testing period is over". Great, but now we're all in this limbo awaiting for the other foot to drop. I would gladly be a tester, as I did all my own wiring, crimping, and have a firm grasp of requirements and limitations. Heck, I use some of this stuff at work :-)

======================================

I posted a detailed diagram on diplexing the Slimline dish and HR20, but H20 will be identical, just with one SAT input. It's shown here.


Yes, that's what I would call diplexer H*LL. Every time you add a diplexer, you're reducing the signal by approx 1-3dB (especially the crap ones sold in retail chains). The highest quality diplexers I have seen have 0.25-0.5dB insertion loss, >50dB rejection, and they're made by Soontai (Taiwanese company). We use them at work for for MoCA and CATV feeds. Some people can tolerate the loss, but I have an attic antenna and don't have enough SNR margin for more loss which will affect the ATSC 8VSB signal quality.

With the SWM8, you'll need a diplexer at each receiver to receive the OTA 8VSB ATSC signal. The HR20 automatically (after power cycling or cable removal/insertion) determines it is connected to an SWM.

======================================
Oh goodie, Can I pick on a double E this morning? I see I'm late to the party this morning. :lol:

Sure, I'm game. I've got a thick skin, you know us E^2s are always trying to have the last word :lol:


Both the WB68 and the SWM have four inputs from the dish. These are the 13/18 volt tone/no tone combinations needed to power the dish. Since these are the same, they can be split to the same input on another switch with power [DC] passing splitters. Since the SWM is powered if the splitter is only power passing on one leg and this is connected to the passing port, the LNB stays powered even though the WB68 leg isn't driving the LNB.
SWM [single wire multi-switch] can by design split it's output to several receivers that are SWM capable. The HR-20 in "SWM mode" only needs one SAT connection.
The SWM tunes to the transponder required by each tuner and outputs just that one the SWM channel from each receiver/tuner. SWM5 works with 5 and SWM8 works with 8.


So, I think we can figure out how to get the original, 3 LNB (MPEG2) satellite reception. You must introduce some new algorithm for getting the other two (MPEG4) transponders (LNBs), right? At worst case, you'd need four different (odd/even and which of two LNBs) combinations. Wonder what algorithm is used?

==================================

Just a note to add, the SWM8 has an OTA input on the switch, while the SWM5 requires diplexers on both ends to combine, then split out the signals.

Thanks for the confirmation. I have to go SWM8 anyway, since I have three DVRs. So, I would think that it would be better to use more cables than a single, split cable, assuming that the SWM8 starts out using the lower modulated band and then starts using the higher frequency bands per allocation. In this example, I mean if you have two HR20s, it would seem to be better to use both FTM outputs separately than one FTM (other than splitter losses). That assumes that it doesn't just simply use whatever the SWM8 hasn't already allocated to another band; if that's the case then the only thing you buy by using a single wire for both receivers is that you can use splitters and daisy-chain the coax cable from one room to another (but who else can do this except the CATV and MoCA/UWB/HPNA guys).

[veryoldschool]

JustRobSure, I'm game. I've got a thick skin, you know us E^2s are always trying to have the last word :lol:
So whether you use a SWM 5 or 8 you need to diplex out the OTA at the HR20 to the input.
Connecting a second SWM coax to tuner #2 will do nothing.
SWM compatible receivers detect the SWM on boot up [and shut down #2 input].
The 5 LNB dish works the same as the 3 LNB [ 2 control voltages, + tone or not]. The Ku SATs use 950-1450 MHz & Ka uses both 250-750 MHz [requiring the BBC conversion] and 1650-2150 MHz.
So where there used to be one 500 MHz "block", there are now three.
Power passing splitters won't have a "back feed" problem since both legs are going to the same input of a multi-switch [with the same voltage].
This is why you: need a multi-switch, and can't split a SAT feed to multiple receivers [that would have varying voltages]
The SWM does have an amp [gain] in it. How the output frequencies are determined is still unknown.
It is made for RG59 cabling to make D* more compatible with houses wired for CATV.
The SWM does a far amount of conversion. Where a multi-switch will sent all of the even/odd transponders [500 MHz], the SWM send only the required transponder.
So if filters, converts and distributes the require transponder to each receiver on it's two outputs [FTM 1 & 2].
Since a double E needs the last word [ :lol: ] what's next? :)

OH yeah: there was a posting about a SWM 11 and the output were from 950 MHz to 2150 MHz.

[JustRob]

So whether you use a SWM 5 or 8 you need to diplex out the OTA at the HR20 to the input.

Thanks for quick response and detailed answers. I saw that in another thread. BMoreRavens picture didn't show the back-side of the HR20, or if a splitter was required (for both tuners) or diplexer. It's clear now I think.

Connecting a second SWM coax to tuner #2 will do nothing. SWM compatible receivers detect the SWM on boot up [and shut down #2 input].

Makes sense now. Perhaps not enough people have shown pics of their HR20 coax connections and diplexer.

The 5 LNB dish works the same as the 3 LNB [ 2 control voltages, + tone or not]. The Ku SATs use 950-1450 MHz & Ka uses both 250-750 MHz [requiring the BBC conversion] and 1650-2150 MHz.
So where there used to be one 500 MHz "block", there are now three.

Gotcha, so that could mean then, that the HR20s are intelligent enough to tune and pick up what they need from this larger band. I assume the out-of-band signal quality for each band is low enough as to not affect the adjacent bands SNR.

Power passing splitters won't have a "back feed" problem since both legs are going to the same input of a multi-switch [with the same voltage].

This is why you: need a multi-switch, and can't split a SAT feed to multiple receivers [that would have varying voltages].

You'd think it'd be safer to just have a 5-2300MHz splitter, and only one leg with power steering diodes, to be safest, than to use a splitter that is 5-2300MHz and both legs diode-steered.


The SWM does have an amp [gain] in it. How the output frequencies are determined is still unknown.
It is made for RG59 cabling to make D* more compatible with houses wired for CATV.
The SWM does a far amount of conversion. Where a multi-switch will sent all of the even/odd transponders [500 MHz], the SWM send only the required transponder.
So if filters, converts and distributes the require transponder to each receiver on it's two outputs [FTM 1 & 2].

Heck, give it to me; I have a 3GHz 75-ohm network analyzer at work!!:D If the D* band starts at 950MHz, sounds like it won't interoperate with either MoCA at 1GHz or the new DOCSIS 3.0 (ends at 1GHz). Oh well... I wonder if the 950 is start of guard band or what the adjacent floor noise has to be in order to not affect D* signal in the same cable.

Since a double E needs the last word [ :lol: ] what's next? :)

OH yeah: there was a posting about a SWM 11 and the output were from 950 MHz to 2150 MHz.

:goodjob:

Hmm, don't think I quite understand how this works entirely then. You have so many bands, and each band is shifted to a frequency within the 950-2150MHz band. However, this can't be the end of it as there is a limitation to the number of receivers each output has. If it's simple (easier said than done) frequency shifting bands, and I guess the HR20 must map each channel to whatever band (and channel within that band) the SWM output has chosen. Must take forever to scan all channels then, but hopefully with a UPS, shouldn't need to do it too often.
:scratch:

I'm wondering if there is tilt in response of SWMs. I doubt that will help significantly since you'll still be adding a bit of noise with the amplification. I'd also like to know if I'd still need to keep my 20dB OTA RatShack amp; would be nice if the SWM had a higher quality LNA. You gotta imagine that SWM internally must be an RF headache!

[carl6]

Hmm, don't think I quite understand how this works entirely then. You have so many bands, and each band is shifted to a frequency within the 950-2150MHz band. However, this can't be the end of it as there is a limitation to the number of receivers each output has.

The SWM outputs each provide access to all channels. On the SWM8 you can put all 8 tuners on output 1, all 8 tuners on output 2, or have any mix between them. The only difference between the two outputs is that the power inserter must be connected to output 1.

So essentially the two SWM outputs are nothing more than a diode isolated splitter.

Carl

[veryoldschool]

Gotcha, so that could mean then, that the HR20s are intelligent enough to tune and pick up what they need from this larger band. I assume the out-of-band signal quality for each band is low enough as to not affect the adjacent bands SNR. It's my understanding the this is more done in the SWM, where the SWM is a "pre-tuner" using a "IF" for each connected receiver [tuner in each]. There is also one other signal [IF] that seems to be the control. A SWM 5 has 6 & a SWM 8 show 9, on the HR20 test screen.

You'd think it'd be safer to just have a 5-2300MHz splitter, and only one leg with power steering diodes, to be safest, than to use a splitter that is 5-2300MHz and both legs diode-steered.
The only problem with a single leg power passing splitter is if you use the Zinwell WB68 multi-switch [the most common for Ku/Ka]. These are passive and require the receiver to supply the LNB voltage. If the passing leg doesn't have a tuner suppling the voltage, then the non-passing leg tuner won't be able to tune to the transponder.
If one of the multi-switches is powered [or a SWM] and is connected to the passing leg, there isn't a problem [duh].

Hmm, don't think I quite understand how this works entirely then. You have so many bands, and each band is shifted to a frequency within the 950-2150MHz band. However, this can't be the end of it as there is a limitation to the number of receivers each output has. If it's simple (easier said than done) frequency shifting bands, and I guess the HR20 must map each channel to whatever band (and channel within that band) the SWM output has chosen. Must take forever to scan all channels then, but hopefully with a UPS, shouldn't need to do it too often.
:scratch:
As ^ I don't think they're "bands" but "A" transponder sent over an IF [about 40 MHz bw] to the tuner.

I'd also like to know if I'd still need to keep my 20dB OTA RatShack amp; would be nice if the SWM had a higher quality LNA. You gotta imagine that SWM internally must be an RF headache!
From reports, the OTA internal diplexer is [very] lossy, so some use their own external diplexer. I don't figure D* spent much on the OTA path [the SWM5 doesn't even have it, only the SWM8].

[JustRob]

As ^ I don't think they're "bands" but "A" transponder sent over an IF [about 40 MHz bw] to the tuner.

Okay, now this is beginning to make sense. But I don't think you could have that many channels in 40MHz b/w. At one time, when I had CATV, they could get 4 SD channels into one 6 MHz carrier, and I'm not sure about HD (presumably more b/w). Since satellite has the fading channel problem, I'm guessing it's not quite as nice of a medium as HFC, therefore it needs more b/w due to lower symbol rate and error recovery techniques. Do ou mean perhaps 400MHz?

From reports, the OTA internal diplexer is [very] lossy, so some use their own external diplexer. I don't figure D* spent much on the OTA path [the SWM5 doesn't even have it, only the SWM8].

Now that makes a lot of sense. I can see that the SWM8 might not do that good of a job, since it may rely on a strong signal or CATV feed and it might have an insertion loss of perhaps 10dB if un-amplified (not counting the splitter).

Since the termination must be capped when the 2nd output is not used, this makes me think you'd never want to use just one leg for 8 tuners on the SWM8 as you'd be just wasting power across a 75ohm load (so why not put it to good use and get less loss across a 2-way splitter than a 4-way). Furthermore, I would guess that the OTA, if unamplified with LNA, must be at least 3.5dB or more of attenuation (thus why people said it was more lossy than using their own separate feed).

This is good; thanks for keeping my brain working! :grin:

[robq391]

I have a question that may have been answered but I cannot find it.

I have my OTA/SAT diplexed into single feeds w/ BBC's @ output of multiswitch before diplexer, exactly as described here. Works beautifully w/o any discernable SL in the SAT levels. Approximately 150' from dish to M/S & 75'-100' from M/S to receivers. Using WB68 and no in line amps.

I want to get rid of my splitter for my OTA & increase the number of OTA feeds.

Quetion is can I use the SDC5401 (made by zinwell & perfect vision) off 4 outputs from my WB68 to achieve 4 diplexed feeds?

If this would work, I could get rid of a splitter feeding 2 diplexers & combine this into one step as well as give me 2 more feeds.

Thanks in advance

[veryoldschool]

I have a question that may have been answered but I cannot find it.

I have my OTA/SAT diplexed into single feeds w/ BBC's @ output of multiswitch before diplexer, exactly as described here. Works beautifully w/o any discernable SL in the SAT levels. Approximately 150' from dish to M/S & 75'-100' from M/S to receivers. Using WB68 and no in line amps.

I want to get rid of my splitter for my OTA & increase the number of OTA feeds.

Quetion is can I use the SDC5401 (made by zinwell & perfect vision) off 4 outputs from my WB68 to achieve 4 diplexed feeds?

If this would work, I could get rid of a splitter feeding 2 diplexers & combine this into one step as well as give me 2 more feeds.

Thanks in advance
:welcome_s to DBSTalk
Since you would need to mount the BBCs to the input of that multi-switch, I don't think you can use it as I doubt you could control the BBCs anymore. They need to switch in & out and the control signal won't get through the switch to them, is my guess.

[robq391]

Thanks VOS.

I wasn't sure because Zinwell calls it a multiswitch & PerfectVision calls it a splitter/combiner. Same model # from both companys.

They aren't that expensive so I might just order 1 and see what happens.

[veryoldschool]

Thanks VOS.

I wasn't sure because Zinwell calls it a multiswitch & PerfectVision calls it a splitter/combiner. Same model # from both companys.

They aren't that expensive so I might just order 1 and see what happens.
If you do get it to work, please come back and post it. :)

[ITSec_Guy]

Before you say it can't be done, yes it can and doing so is easy. Done properly, the signals will not conflict. This has been tested and does work.[/b]

GOD BLESS YOU! This is the first time I have seen this tread but I have been TRYING to tell people that you can DIPLEX the MPEG 4 signal! I just came to DirecTV last month but I had been doing it with Dish as long as MPEG 4 had been OUT!

[veryoldschool]

GOD BLESS YOU! This is the first time I have seen this tread but I have been TRYING to tell people that you can DIPLEX the MPEG 4 signal! I just came to DirecTV last month but I had been doing it with Dish as long as MPEG 4 had been OUT!
It's not the MPEG-4 but the use of Ka-lo band that is the issue and where the BBC is mounted [since this is what upconverts the 250-750 MHz frequencies that are the problem].

[RobertE]

I still have to wonder if this hack will work when D11 is live.

[veryoldschool]

I still have to wonder if this hack will work when D11 is live.
I can't think why if it works with D10, that it wouldn't with D11 [same voltages but just no tone, and same frequencies].

[texasbrit]

I can't think why if it works with D10, that it wouldn't with D11 [same voltages but just no tone, and same frequencies].

The signals from D11 will look just like the signals from D10. Should have no effect at all.

[JustRob]

Has anyone done any comparisons in signal strength between OTA signal via SWM8 input and using an external splitter and diplexers at the multiswitch?

[texasbrit]

Has anyone done any comparisons in signal strength between OTA signal via SWM8 input and using an external splitter and diplexers at the multiswitch?

There's a very wide variation in the performance of diplexers so I don't think any comparisons would be all that relevant. The SWM8 is not doing anything special with OTA. It probably has just a single diplexer that combines the OTA signal with the datastream from the SWM itself. Then from that point on the losses are going to be whatever losses you get in the splitter/diplexer arrangement you happen to have set up, nothing to do with the SWM itself.

[JustRob]

There's a very wide variation in the performance of diplexers <SNIP>... nothing to do with the SWM itself.
Thanks for the quick reply! Actually, I was thinking about the difference between using external diplexers and an SWM5 (or SWM8), and using the SWM8 with internal OTA feed. I read on one thread that some had issues with SWM8 and OTA feed being inferior than doing this externally, so they just used external diplexers. If this is the case, then it might be better to use external diplexers (provided that they don't have overall more insertion loss than using the OTA input).

Since I have an antenna in the attic, aiming directly at a bunch of trees (significantly taller than my house and the FCC antenna height rule), any additional significant OTA attenuation is a signal killer. I probably need to consider using another antenna amp besides the RatShack one (perhaps a ChannelMaster with a better NF).

[Fly Navy]

From Tom Robertson's post I understand that splitters can only be used "between a multiswitch (normally the one on the dish) and two (or more) multiswitches in parallel."

Question: So long as the 13V tone/no tone and 18V tone/no tone downstream switches are all aligned, is there any issue with the downstream multiswithces being different types: i.e. a newer WB616 versus an older narrow band MS that doesn't handle the new Ka/Ku signals?

[veryoldschool]

Question: So long as the 13V tone/no tone and 18V tone/no tone downstream switches are all aligned, is there any issue with the downstream multiswithces being different types: i.e. a newer WB616 versus an older narrow band MS that doesn't handle the new Ka/Ku signals?
"no" :)

[texasbrit]

Thanks for the quick reply! Actually, I was thinking about the difference between using external diplexers and an SWM5 (or SWM8), and using the SWM8 with internal OTA feed. I read on one thread that some had issues with SWM8 and OTA feed being inferior than doing this externally, so they just used external diplexers. If this is the case, then it might be better to use external diplexers (provided that they don't have overall more insertion loss than using the OTA input).

Since I have an antenna in the attic, aiming directly at a bunch of trees (significantly taller than my house and the FCC antenna height rule), any additional significant OTA attenuation is a signal killer. I probably need to consider using another antenna amp besides the RatShack one (perhaps a ChannelMaster with a better NF).

Of course you would only need a single diplexer to add the OTA signal to the SWM5 output (or two if you used both the output lines), or to similarly bypass the SWM8 diplexer. I haven't seen any specific comparison of using the SWM8 internal diplexer vs using an external one, but if you only need OTA on one of the SWM output lines, an external diplexer is going to be a better solution, because the SWM8 does not only have a built-in diplexer, it also splits the OTA with an internal two-way splitter between the two SWM outputs.

So the OTA signal on either of the two SWM outputs from the SWM switch will be 3.5db down, compared with the signal on a single SWM output if you just use an external diplexer (assuming that the SWM internal diplexer and the external diplexer have the same insertion loss.), so if you are only using one SWM output you should use an external diplexer to get the strongest signal. If you are going to use a splitter to connect OTA to a diplexer on each of the SWM outputs, you might just as well (insertion losses being assumed equal) use the SMW's built-in diplexer.

[mjferguson]

I just got my new dish and have 3 receivers. 2 H20s and 1 HR20. the setup described in this post worked fine on the 2 H20s, but will not seem to work on the HR20? Any ideas? I have all three setup exactly the same. I got an error about selecting a 5lnb with only 4 satellites coming in? I didn't diplex the second tuner, it does not have an antenna feed. any input would be appreciated.

The HR20 feed from my switch is the shortest of all 3.

[veryoldschool]

I just got my new dish and have 3 receivers. 2 H20s and 1 HR20. the setup described in this post worked fine on the 2 H20s, but will not seem to work on the HR20? Any ideas? I have all three setup exactly the same. I got an error about selecting a 5lnb with only 4 satellites coming in? I didn't diplex the second tuner, it does not have an antenna feed. any input would be appreciated.

The HR20 feed from my switch is the shortest of all 3.
Both the H & HR 20s work the same way.
You might have a bad diplexer on the HR line.
Try swapping diplexers/BBCs from the working lines to the HR and see if you can find a bad part/cable.

[mjferguson]

I will give that a shot, but it seems hard to believe since they are all the same diplexers and cables that were working before the upgrade. The installer did a very sloppy job, stripping a couple screws on my media panel and dinging up my house where he put his ladder, so maybe he screwed something up. I am pissed about that, but that is another issue all together. I just had a thought that maybe the line I diplexed is really the tuner 2 line. I thought I had them straight, but I think that could be the issue now. I will try to switch it over when I get home tonight. That is the first time I have had issues with a Directv installer, will Directv just blow me off if I call and complain? Probably not even worth my time I guess.

[veryoldschool]

I will give that a shot, but it seems hard to believe since they are all the same diplexers and cables that were working before the upgrade. The installer did a very sloppy job, stripping a couple screws on my media panel and dinging up my house where he put his ladder, so maybe he screwed something up. I am pissed about that, but that is another issue all together. I just had a thought that maybe the line I diplexed is really the tuner 2 line. I thought I had them straight, but I think that could be the issue now. I will try to switch it over when I get home tonight. That is the first time I have had issues with a Directv installer, will Directv just blow me off if I call and complain? Probably not even worth my time I guess.
If you had problems with your installer/install, it might be worth a call to DirecTV. I know they were very nice when I called about my "installer from hell".
I'm sure it would help to be nice on the phone [so beat something up to get it out of your system before you call]. They "want" you to be happy and may throw some program credits your way.
If you don't give them "feedback" how will they know the job didn't go "right"?

[mjferguson]

If you had problems with your installer/install, it might be worth a call to DirecTV. I know they were very nice when I called about my "installer from hell".
I'm sure it would help to be nice on the phone [so beat something up to get it out of your system before you call]. They "want" you to be happy and may throw some program credits your way.
If you don't give them "feedback" how will they know the job didn't go "right"?

Good point, I will make sure they get the feedback.

[mjferguson]

OK, it seems to have gotten a little better, but still an issue with 99(b). 103 a and b are nowing saying OK. I seem to get the same signal as I am getting on my H20s, but when I go through the setup it fails on 99 every time? Any ideas? Switched around diplexers and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

[mjferguson]

I apologize for the repeated posts. I think I may have a receiver issue. I am getting at least some of the HD channels on the receiver that says it is failing to find 99b. Can someone let me nkow what new HD channels are on what satellites so I can test my theory. I am getting USAHD, and HIST HD. What else can I test?

[veryoldschool]

I apologize for the repeated posts. I think I may have a receiver issue. I am getting at least some of the HD channels on the receiver that says it is failing to find 99b. Can someone let me nkow what new HD channels are on what satellites so I can test my theory. I am getting USAHD, and HIST HD. What else can I test?
99 is "spot beams" for local HD channels, and if there are no spots pointed at you there is "nothing to get".
Do you get your local HD channels?
The two HD channels you posted are off 103b, so it looks as if your BBC(s) are working.

Go into the setup menu and view the transponder levels, and skip the main system test page. You will see each SAT and transponders.

[mjferguson]

I am getting the local HD channels OTA, my entire reason for doing this setup. I guess it 99b is only for HD locals then I won't worry about it. Thanks for the feedback.

[jtallbright]

Just wanted to thank you guys for this post. I have insulated walls in my bedroom and running another cable was going to be a MAJOR job. EVERYBODY told me you couldnt diplex the MPEG 4. Well, guess they didnt know what they were talking about. I mounted the BBC in my attic, cut the cable to my bedroom right at the top where it goes through the wall, added the BBC, diplexer, connected OTA, then installed the diplexer at the cable outlet on the wall, ran the two cables to the HR20 and works perfect. Thanks!!

[JustRob]

Splitters
Splitters can only be used between a multiswitch (normally the one on the dish) and two (or more) multiswitches in parallel. The big keys are power passing on at least one leg of the splitter (all, if passive switches are used), and make absolutely certain the downstream switches are all aligned on the switches. The 13V/no tone inputs for all switches MUST go to the same splitter, likewise with the 18V/no tone, 13V/22KHz, and 18V/22KHz so that all the switches get the same feed from the dish that they both want.

(The power passing splitters have protective diodes so the voltages don't loop back. Yes, the multiple 22KHz signaling can be an issue in theory, but doesn't seem to be a problem in practice.)


This is interesting, Tom. According to another post here which pointed to this website: http://www.sonoradesign.com/slide_display.php?presentationId=27&slideId=46&target=homeowners

see this text: Model HRT106 taps are used to split the signal to the (2) SWM5 switches. Taps pass power from ONLY the through port so only one SWM will power the AU9-S dish.

So, makes me wonder if you have a splitter with diode steering on both legs, it might have a problem with two SWM5s (i.e., house with 3 HR20s - you need 6 tuner feeds which means two SWM5s). Perhaps this indicates that there could be an issue with the 22kHz signal and/or voltage from SWMs to 5LNB multiswitch if diode or'ed.

[jefbal99]

This is interesting, Tom. According to another post here which pointed to this website: http://www.sonoradesign.com/slide_display.php?presentationId=27&slideId=46&target=homeowners

see this text: Model HRT106 taps are used to split the signal to the (2) SWM5 switches. Taps pass power from ONLY the through port so only one SWM will power the AU9-S dish.

So, makes me wonder if you have a splitter with diode steering on both legs, it might have a problem with two SWM5s (i.e., house with 3 HR20s - you need 6 tuner feeds which means two SWM5s). Perhaps this indicates that there could be an issue with the 22kHz signal and/or voltage from SWMs to 5LNB multiswitch if diode or'ed.



or you could get a SWM8

[veryoldschool]

So, makes me wonder if you have a splitter with diode steering on both legs, it might have a problem with two SWM5s (i.e., house with 3 HR20s - you need 6 tuner feeds which means two SWM5s). Perhaps this indicates that there could be an issue with the 22kHz signal and/or voltage from SWMs to 5LNB multiswitch if diode or'ed.
Why would the SWM react any different than two WB68s?
The only thing that comes to mind would be the 22 kHz being exactly 180 degrees out of phase, but this would be rare as it's a fairly long wavelength.
Maybe it's just that Sonora stocks/sells single power passing splitters since they've been selling the Locker where it doesn't matter.

[harsh]

or you could get a SWM8If only...

[jefbal99]

If only...

If he can come up with 2 SWM5s then I think he might be able to come up with a SWM8

[veryoldschool]

If he can come up with 2 SWM5s then I think he might be able to come up with a SWM8
Actually, the SWM5 is in limited rollout while the SWM8 isn't.

[JustRob]

or you could get a SWM8
Yeah, I'll just go pick one up at Radio Shack. I'll let you know how the SWM8 works out.:rolleyes:

[JustRob]

Why would the SWM react any different than two WB68s?
The only thing that comes to mind would be the 22 kHz being exactly 180 degrees out of phase, but this would be rare as it's a fairly long wavelength.
Maybe it's just that Sonora stocks/sells single power passing splitters since they've been selling the Locker where it doesn't matter.

Gotta pull out your old EE books :). Open up Matlab or Octave and do this:
clf; clg; close all;
f0=22E3; tperiod=1/f0;
tsamp=tperiod/50; t=[0:tsamp:tsamp*(2E5)];
f1=f0*(1-(100/1e6)); f2=f0*(1+(100/1e6));
y1=13+sin(2*pi*f1.*t); y2=13+sin(2*pi*f2.*t);
ored=max(y1,y2);
figure(1); plot(t,y1,t,y2,t,ored)
figure(2);
plot(t(1:100),y1(1:100),t(1:100),y2(1:100),t(1:100 ),ored(1:100))
figure(3);
z1=123250; z2=z1+100;
plot(t(z1:z2),y1(z1:z2),t(z1:z2),y2(z1:z2),t(z1:z2 ),ored(z1:z2))

Assumptions: 13V DC, with 1Vpeak sine wave output (2Vpp), two different frequency sources (one +100ppm the other -100ppm). As you can see from figure 1, it appears that some change is occurring in the overlap ("ored" which is the blue plot). Zooming in on figures 2 and 3, you can see that figure 2 shows a 22kHz signal, but figure 3 shows what looks like a 44kHz signal. Perhaps this is the problem with using diodes (DC/low-frequency pass) on both legs of the combiner/splitter.

I don't have my matlab book with me or I'd do the FFT but I don't have time right now (to see frequency components shown at fig 2 and fig 3). Surely, there is some component of 22kHz in fig 3 but it is significantly reduced from that in fig 2.

I'm a little surprised that this actually works with the WB68??:confused:

[Matt9876]

Feel like I'm changing the subject here but have discovered the short jumper wire on the gray BBCs is only a copper braid shield coax with high loss.

Removing this short jumper and connecting to the BBC directly with your good quality RG-6 coax will get you out to 40 feet on the diplexed line, before removing the jumper about 30 foot was the maximum distance I could get.

Matt

Edit: open the little plastic box to see the screw on connector.

2nd Edit: With the short jumper removed now getting 60 foot on diplexed line.

[veryoldschool]

Gotta pull out your old EE books :). Open up Matlab or Octave and do this:
clf; clg; close all;
f0=22E3; tperiod=1/f0;
tsamp=tperiod/50; t=[0:tsamp:tsamp*(2E5)];
f1=f0*(1-(100/1e6)); f2=f0*(1+(100/1e6));
y1=13+sin(2*pi*f1.*t); y2=13+sin(2*pi*f2.*t);
ored=max(y1,y2);
figure(1); plot(t,y1,t,y2,t,ored)
figure(2);
plot(t(1:100),y1(1:100),t(1:100),y2(1:100),t(1:100 ),ored(1:100))
figure(3);
z1=123250; z2=z1+100;
plot(t(z1:z2),y1(z1:z2),t(z1:z2),y2(z1:z2),t(z1:z2 ),ored(z1:z2))

Assumptions: 13V DC, with 1Vpeak sine wave output (2Vpp), two different frequency sources (one +100ppm the other -100ppm). As you can see from figure 1, it appears that some change is occurring in the overlap ("ored" which is the blue plot). Zooming in on figures 2 and 3, you can see that figure 2 shows a 22kHz signal, but figure 3 shows what looks like a 44kHz signal. Perhaps this is the problem with using diodes (DC/low-frequency pass) on both legs of the combiner/splitter.

I don't have my matlab book with me or I'd do the FFT but I don't have time right now (to see frequency components shown at fig 2 and fig 3). Surely, there is some component of 22kHz in fig 3 but it is significantly reduced from that in fig 2.

I'm a little surprised that this actually works with the WB68??:confused:
I think I'd use a oscilloscope, it's so much easier. :)

[RobertE]

Feel like I'm changing the subject here but have discovered the short jumper wire on the gray BBCs is only a copper braid shield coax with high loss.

Removing this short jumper and connecting to the BBC directly with your good quality RG-6 coax will get you out to 40 feet on the diplexed line, before removing the jumper about 30 foot was the maximum distance I could get.

Matt

Edit: open the little plastic box to see the screw on connector.

I've replaced that short jumper many times. Lots last winter when they were still pinched from being stuck in the box and being frozen. Many wanted to break. Adding a longer jumper also allows for the BBC to go behind a entertainment center when depth is an issue.

[JustRob]

I think I'd use a oscilloscope, it's so much easier. :)
So, what does the oscope show you? Not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to confirm my hypothesis...

[mjferguson]

Any see any picture degradation with this setup. I am using it with 2 h20s and 1HR20. Maybe I am imagining things, but I feel like I am seeing a lot more artifacts on fast motion? Just wondering if it could be related to this setup in any way? It is working great, and maybe I am just overanalyzing the picture now. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

[veryoldschool]

So, what does the oscope show you? Not trying to be sarcastic, just trying to confirm my hypothesis...
It would show the phase relationship of the 22 kHz signals.