View Full Version : 1 Station = 1 Tuner rather than 1 Show = 1 Tuner
bigviking
09-25-06, 07:43 AM
I mentioned this in the features thread last night, but wanted to start another thread as well. One of the most fundamental problems with every DVR I have used (I wont have my HR20 for another week, but assume that it has the same problem) is the basic concept of each recording show requiring one tuner rather than each station requiring one tuner.
As an example:
If your are recording one show on NBC from 7:58 to 9:02, and another show on NBC from 8:58 to 10:02 the DVR should only require a single tuner because the overlap occurs on the same station.
This would actually be a relativey simple thing to implement, it would simply require that all recordings on the unit be represented by starting and ending points to each stream, where each stream could be pointed to by multiple shows.
In my example, there would be a single stream (NBC from 7:58 to 10:02), and two recordings within that stream (one from 7:58 to 9:02 and another from 8:58 to 10:02).
In my opinion, this functionality should be fundamental to any DVR, and should be encorporated into the HR20 before developers go crazy with other features that only a small percentage of people would ever use.
twidget2000
09-25-06, 07:47 AM
Under what example would this be used? overlapping recordings on the same channel.
bigviking
09-25-06, 07:51 AM
Under what example would this be used? overlapping recordings on the same channel.
Anytime you were recording back to back shows on the same station with overlap, while using the other tuner for something else. It just keeps you from having to watch the beginning of one show by going to the end of the other, and from having to put as much thought into recording setup.
Earl Bonovich
09-25-06, 08:06 AM
I can understand why you want something like that... and theory it would be very beneficial. But... It will probably be a while till you see something like that.
As from a "programmers" view, you would need to introduce a bit of conditional logic into the recording functionality of the unit, that would have to check to see if you are on the same channel for that 2nd recording.
In addition to have to add either a hardware level, or a software level coding to then (in this specific case), to "duplicate" the data stream comming from that shared tuner, and store into two files.
Instead of what the DVR's do today that treat each scheduled program as an exclusive data stream, and record it independently of the other one.
bigviking
09-25-06, 08:10 AM
I can understand why you want something like that... and theory it would be very beneficial. But... It will probably be a while till you see something like that.
As from a "programmers" view, you would need to introduce a bit of conditional logic into the recording functionality of the unit, that would have to check to see if you are on the same channel for that 2nd recording.
In addition to have to add either a hardware level, or a software level coding to then (in this specific case), to "duplicate" the data stream comming from that shared tuner, and store into two files.
Instead of what the DVR's do today that treat each scheduled program as an exclusive data stream, and record it independently of the other one.
I have considerable experiencing with writing programs to process video streams, and I can see your point on the conditional logic (although in my opinion, it is still a very simplistic thing to implement).
As far as the "duplication" goes, that would be the wrong way to implement it. In my example, there would be no "duplication", just a single file from 7:58 to 10:02, and each show would be represented by starting and ending points within that file.
bigviking
09-25-06, 09:26 AM
I have considerable experiencing with writing programs to process video streams, and I can see your point on the conditional logic (although in my opinion, it is still a very simplistic thing to implement).
As far as the "duplication" goes, that would be the wrong way to implement it. In my example, there would be no "duplication", just a single file from 7:58 to 10:02, and each show would be represented by starting and ending points within that file.
OK, I don't have the source code for this (heck, I don't even have an HR 20 yet, mine will be installed a week from today) but on the surface it seams that this is what it would require:
1) Modify the database (or files) that stores whatever the equivalent of the "Now Playing" list is. Instead of having "ER 9/14" -> stream.mp4, it needs to be "ER 9/14" -> stream.mp4 start=7:58, end=9:02. I am sure this overly simplistic, but I believe correct in function.
2) Modify the code responsible for playing an item from your now playing list so that you can pass in a start and end time (it probably can already do this). This would completely hide the fact that you have multiple shows that use the same source stream.
3) Modify the code that is used to delete recordings so that it simply "clips" the beginning or ending of a stream if that stream is still in use by other shows. This would not require re-encoding of the stream (although they may have some security measures such as checksums on the streams in place) that could need to be addressed.
4) Obviously, make the underlying changes so that the system never has both tuners on the same channel simply because it is recording two things from the same channel at the same time.
I know that the truth is that it all comes down to priorities, and perhaps there are other things that really should be done before this. I am very understanding of this and can tell you that users of the systems that I am responsible for also have useful ideas that aren't to difficult to implement, but we just haven't had time to implement them yet. Heck, thats what keeps most of us employed so it's really not so bad in some respects.
Anyway, I believe that this fundamental change to the very structure of how recordings are represented is in my mind at least a very good idea, and I can think of other scenarios in which we could get even more out of it in the future ... perhaps the concept of recording events that have sub-events. More on that in the future, but this would open the door for some neat tricks.
For people that record alot of things from the same channels, the dual tuners many times only buy the user the ability to add padding between shows, but because of how things are implemented they are getting conflicts when they shouldn't.
cabanaboy1977
09-25-06, 01:11 PM
Instead of what the DVR's do today that treat each scheduled program as an exclusive data stream, and record it independently of the other one.
I'm pretty sure the UTV did this thought (it's been awhile so I could be wrong). I will do the auto 5 min padding as long as both the programs where on the same tuner. ie NBC 9:00-9:30, 9:30-10:00 and ABC 9:00-9:30, and 9:30-10:00. You'd end up with 4 shows that where 35 mins each. The only time it would not do that is if the shows that where on at 9:00-9:30 where on different channels than the 9:30-10:00 shows. I could be wrong but that's what I remember.
Anytime you were recording back to back shows on the same station with overlap, while using the other tuner for something else. It just keeps you from having to watch the beginning of one show by going to the end of the other, and from having to put as much thought into recording setup.
While not as convenient as seeing show titles still enumerated on the guide, though only pulling from one information store. I did noticed the HR20 has the ability to do a recurring manual timeframe, so you could tell it to record Fox from 8pm to 10pm every sunday for your cartoons.
bigviking
09-26-06, 02:48 PM
While not as convenient as seeing show titles still enumerated on the guide, though only pulling from one information store. I did noticed the HR20 has the ability to do a recurring manual timeframe, so you could tell it to record Fox from 8pm to 10pm every sunday for your cartoons.
Huh ???
Huh ???
I don't get it!:confused:
If you recorded two shows on one channel, the information store database should save that as one file with two seperate start/stop indexes for the corresponding times, and then enumerate those into a description of your show for you to select. That seemed to be the goal of the enhancement, that way you wouldn't have to start one a minute later and record 2 minutes later.
(which by the way Tivo Did and I can't get this DVR to do that. If I have two shows recording from 8pm to 9pm, and try and add a third from 7pm to 8pm, I get a tuner conflict ARGHH)
The manual record option is pretty much self explanetary.
bigviking
09-27-06, 07:27 AM
I don't get it!:confused:
If you recorded two shows on one channel, the information store database should save that as one file with two seperate start/stop indexes for the corresponding times, and then enumerate those into a description of your show for you to select. That seemed to be the goal of the enhancement, that way you wouldn't have to start one a minute later and record 2 minutes later.
(which by the way Tivo Did and I can't get this DVR to do that. If I have two shows recording from 8pm to 9pm, and try and add a third from 7pm to 8pm, I get a tuner conflict ARGHH)
The manual record option is pretty much self explanetary.
OK, now I follow what you were saying, and I think we are saying the same thing. This does just feel like a terrible flaw in how things currently work, and it would be completely unacceptable if the unit just had a single tuner. The dual tuners are really the only thing that keeps this problem from going to the top of the list of gripes.
Anyway, it is a big problem that should be trivial to fix, and basically would affect the entire user base, so I think they should get it fixed.
OK, now I follow what you were saying, and I think we are saying the same thing. This does just feel like a terrible flaw in how things currently work, and it would be completely unacceptable if the unit just had a single tuner. The dual tuners are really the only thing that keeps this problem from going to the top of the list of gripes.
Anyway, it is a big problem that should be trivial to fix, and basically would affect the entire user base, so I think they should get it fixed.
At the very least, they should give you the option to stop 1 minute before or start 1 minute after.
crockett
09-27-06, 02:19 PM
If I have two shows recording from 8pm to 9pm, and try and add a third from 7pm to 8pm, I get a tuner conflict ARGHH
I'll start by saying "I don't have an HR20 but one is on the way."
Are you sure about this? This can't be right.
If this is true...
1. What do you have to do to add that 3rd show?
If this is true....
I just don't get these nimrods. I guess I'm so spoiled by TiVo but you would just point to the 7-8 pm show and hit record and you'd be on your way.
If this is true...
This will now be higher on my wish list than dual buffers.
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